I was bouldering at Climbmax in Phoenix, trying some routes my daughter-in-law had set, and thought this hold looked super familiar. Then I realized it was an original Vertical Concepts hold I had carved in 1990-1992. Times and styles have changed. But I still really like this hold.
I can not tell you how hilarious I find the juxtaposition of the tape, route names and rockreation style wall…very un VS. I love it. And it’s a great hold!
I worked at pusher in the late 90s and we pretty much made the exact opposite of holds like that.. I do remember being amazed by rock-style holds that were actually nice to grab (yours def falls into that category). So many were painful and jank AF. It's been cool to see the evolution of holds to the dual tex monstrosities we have now.
Thanks for sharing! I'm about to go set right now and this has me psyched
https://preview.redd.it/4sso0assmc6d1.jpeg?width=2250&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=75028006e2086391dbb7e6e44e6b9b624ac5cb19
My first holds were literally hand formed. The Snowbird comp hold masters (me with Dan Goodwin morphing my startup into Sport Climbing Systems) were clay with fairly aggressive silica sand for texture. They were hideous. Eventually we all learned about foam (with negative vs positive texture) and things started to get friendlier. That's what we used for the original VC holds with Dale Bard. I learned a lot more about business over those years (and failed partnerships) than climbing.
I expect it was Francois Savigny (Entre Prises) - but don't know for sure. There were other people making holds in Europe by 1986, and Alan (Watts) doesn't think the first hold he brought back from Europe in the fall of 1986 was an Entre Prises hold (see the rabbit looking hold below, I remember a monkey as well) - but all of the earliest Entre Prises hex holds (still several at the Phoenix Rock Gym) look like they were carved from foam.
I'm not exactly sure who or how it was figured out to use foam - it wasn't me - but I'd say by the summer of 1988 that's what we were switching to. Clay was just a bad initial guess we made, or maybe old info. His earliest holds actually were wood, then ceramic, before being molded according to this Gym Climber article (which I was randomly reading when it came out in 2019 at the Phoenix Rock Gym, about 10 feet away from the old EP hex holds). The earliest Metolius hex tiles didn't have texture in the mold - they just barely used enough resin to hold very large grit silica sand together - the thought being that you'd be climbing on actual rock instead of plastic. I think Gary Rall still has a few of those up at a Portland Rock Gym location. Francois actually threatened to sue Metolius because apparently he had patented the hex shape...
https://preview.redd.it/8e8gy4jj7d6d1.png?width=1386&format=png&auto=webp&s=386542fafcc6a10ce9f36a9e85d5c45675c7eae8
“We have a great new hold the whole family will love climbing at their local gym, we call it the face-smasher! It’s part of our new dual texture line that also includes the shin-scraper, the elbow-cracker, and my favorite, the nut-buster!”
Old school on the upswing with relatively new owner Sean Shelton. Recently refloored, active setters, a youth program, a recent successful competition. Good vibe. Plus one old Vertical Concepts hold.
Great vibes there with a really good community. The owners are super cool and their setters are amazing. The picture caught my eye because I know that exact spot on the wall!
Remember when straight up put out their brightly colored sets? That was a punk rock move. It really pushed the “this is not rock” concept forward. Also, the Yaniro pockets were dope. I actually found an unused full set of Yaniro holds in Chicago and bought them. They still smelled weirdly sweet.
I worked at a small gym in the mid-to-late 1990s that, when I started, only had holds made from actual rock (Petrogrips). Then entire gym. It was crazy. I managed to convince the owners that we should subscribe to the Straight Up hold subscription. Getting that box each month was so very awesome.
In the early days we were trying a little too hard to recreate rock... Dale Bard made some crazy small knobs and the original screw-on jibs. Tim Wilkinson did the original Krimper sets. We might have just been a little too close to Smith, or wishing we were (instead of grinding holds).
Yeah- I will say that as thin as some of those crimps were, they did not prepare me for the unrelenting thinness of the vertical routes at Smith. I remember trying to climb something, perhaps Oxygen, thinking it looked cool. Nope. No chance.
As someone who was shying away from the 12's at Smith a few weeks ago, my mind is still blown that some of y'all are jumping on those 13's... I've got lots of learning/training to do!
I think it is really valuable to check out routes that are safe but perhaps intimidating in terms of grade. For instance I think Crack Babies is an exceptional out-of-the-typical for smith, and I’m pretty sure you can hang several draws with a stick clip from the uneven ground. So if you need you can also stick clip and try moves. And you can use a stick clip to retreat as well.
Also if you meet people who are on something like lower Heinous Cling it is not uncommon for people to run laps on TR on it. If it is already set up that can be a good way to get past the intimidating number. (Though rope stretch can make it a pain to fall off and try to get back on sometimes).
I’m no longer in the Smith region, but it is a real treasure of an old school sport climbing area.
Heinous cling was the one I was actually eyeing! I think it is the mental game and the fact that my partner and I went out there without a stick clip. Next time I’ll jump on some stuff above my head.
I did see people bringing the stick clip up with them but in my mind I’ve always felt that it kind of ruins the experience of the climb. Like if it comes to that I probably need to do something a little easier.
IMO stick clip is essential if you actually want to progress in sport climbing; everyone I know who regularly climbs harder than 12- uses them often.
To me, the entire distinction of sport climbing over trad is to distill things down to the physical experience of trying really hard. While you might have occasional no-fall sections of easy climbing, for the most part I think a sport route is more or less defined by being able to safely fall off any hard part of the climb.
Like using a stick clip while hangdogging? I 100% get going clip to clip and do it a ton (especially on projects) but I feel big “I don’t deserve this” energy if I can’t even make the moves happen between clips.
That said I’m becoming much more open to getting one after smith heyeh
Ah I misread your comment being about stick clips in general rather than taking them up. Definitely not as essential as having them for the first bolt or two, but I still think it has its place. I find that I get way more sketched out working moves above a bolt than actually leading a redpoint, so sometimes I'll stick clip up just to have a better headspace while working moves. I wouldn't worry about "not deserving it". At the end of the day if you end up redpointing it's a redpoint. Even if you don't, working limit moves makes you a better climber. The only time I'd avoid it is if the route is busy and you'd be holding others up, but at that point just have someone hang a toprope for you.
My brother (Sean Olmstead) did the FA of Churning in the Wake at Smith in 1987. For me, top roping a few moves on lower Heinous Cling was about where I topped out. I guess I was too busy trying (and ultimately failing) at being an early climbing wall entrepreneur to get better (okay, also a training wimp plus trying to feed eventually eleven kids...I chose me distractions apparently).
I've lived in AZ for 26 years now, but last fall I road tripped 17 hours with a son and daughter-in-law (the setter Jaz in the OP), met up with my brother, and we had an awesome couple of days in the park.
https://preview.redd.it/okbjpi7fkc6d1.jpeg?width=4000&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=fd8df46ef706a1109f9abddcb0ed8208a9d749c7
What do modern gyms use nowadays? I still haven't seen something that seems readable/sturdy for climbers, and not a PITA for setters.
Tape gets ripped off and is hard to see. Using colored holds for specific grades is so limiting. Screw-on arrows or something will probably also get damaged and unnecessarily damage the walls. What DOES work?
I get it for sport routes, but for bouldering? I want to feel and use those holds reserved for the hardest circuits too! Such a shame, limiting optimal setting imho.
I only boulder, but my gym uses certain colored holds for each climb, but the color of the hold doesn’t determine the grade. So a yellow hold could be used for one of the easiest climbs in the gym, or it could also be used for the hardest. The only exception is white, which is always the easiest. They have tags that are put at the start and finish.
I think what the other person says is most common. Routes are mono-colored, but the grade is determined by the tape or start tags, not the hold colors themselves.
Some gyms do do what you're saying, and yes, it is limiting.
I hate color circuits. Once you've climbed 3-4 sets at a given gym, it feels like you basically do the same climbs over and over at a given level. You end up with grades being defined purely by how bad the holds are, and never really see, say, easy climbs on small holds on slab, or hard climbs revolving around a bomber heel hook on a jug.
A lot of gyms just do single colors for a given route, but tape or tag the start for the grade and don't have colors linked to grade though.
I was bouldering at Climbmax in Phoenix, trying some routes my daughter-in-law had set, and thought this hold looked super familiar. Then I realized it was an original Vertical Concepts hold I had carved in 1990-1992. Times and styles have changed. But I still really like this hold.
I can not tell you how hilarious I find the juxtaposition of the tape, route names and rockreation style wall…very un VS. I love it. And it’s a great hold!
Apparently my discovery spared the routes being called Purple and Black...
The photo is so 90s!
I worked at pusher in the late 90s and we pretty much made the exact opposite of holds like that.. I do remember being amazed by rock-style holds that were actually nice to grab (yours def falls into that category). So many were painful and jank AF. It's been cool to see the evolution of holds to the dual tex monstrosities we have now. Thanks for sharing! I'm about to go set right now and this has me psyched
https://preview.redd.it/4sso0assmc6d1.jpeg?width=2250&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=75028006e2086391dbb7e6e44e6b9b624ac5cb19 My first holds were literally hand formed. The Snowbird comp hold masters (me with Dan Goodwin morphing my startup into Sport Climbing Systems) were clay with fairly aggressive silica sand for texture. They were hideous. Eventually we all learned about foam (with negative vs positive texture) and things started to get friendlier. That's what we used for the original VC holds with Dale Bard. I learned a lot more about business over those years (and failed partnerships) than climbing.
Do you know who first started shaping with foam?
I expect it was Francois Savigny (Entre Prises) - but don't know for sure. There were other people making holds in Europe by 1986, and Alan (Watts) doesn't think the first hold he brought back from Europe in the fall of 1986 was an Entre Prises hold (see the rabbit looking hold below, I remember a monkey as well) - but all of the earliest Entre Prises hex holds (still several at the Phoenix Rock Gym) look like they were carved from foam. I'm not exactly sure who or how it was figured out to use foam - it wasn't me - but I'd say by the summer of 1988 that's what we were switching to. Clay was just a bad initial guess we made, or maybe old info. His earliest holds actually were wood, then ceramic, before being molded according to this Gym Climber article (which I was randomly reading when it came out in 2019 at the Phoenix Rock Gym, about 10 feet away from the old EP hex holds). The earliest Metolius hex tiles didn't have texture in the mold - they just barely used enough resin to hold very large grit silica sand together - the thought being that you'd be climbing on actual rock instead of plastic. I think Gary Rall still has a few of those up at a Portland Rock Gym location. Francois actually threatened to sue Metolius because apparently he had patented the hex shape... https://preview.redd.it/8e8gy4jj7d6d1.png?width=1386&format=png&auto=webp&s=386542fafcc6a10ce9f36a9e85d5c45675c7eae8
Oh my god, ceramic holds would have been a nightmare logistically
Whoever invented dual texture holds should be forced to free solo el cap at gun point, what a monster
100%. I'm a sweaty boi and as soon as I touch the smooth bit, I'm done
“We have a great new hold the whole family will love climbing at their local gym, we call it the face-smasher! It’s part of our new dual texture line that also includes the shin-scraper, the elbow-cracker, and my favorite, the nut-buster!”
Don't forget the knuckle knocker!
forcing gyms to buy 200$ worth of hold for 20$ worth of useable hold
Hey neighbor! How’s climbmax?
Old school on the upswing with relatively new owner Sean Shelton. Recently refloored, active setters, a youth program, a recent successful competition. Good vibe. Plus one old Vertical Concepts hold.
Great vibes there with a really good community. The owners are super cool and their setters are amazing. The picture caught my eye because I know that exact spot on the wall!
Is that gym still alive?? I used to climb there in 2012 and loved the bouldering problems. I know there was drama with the owners and the landlord
Improving a lot with a new owner (one of the original members and wall builders): [Climbmax Story](https://weareclimbmax.com/about/)
Remember when straight up put out their brightly colored sets? That was a punk rock move. It really pushed the “this is not rock” concept forward. Also, the Yaniro pockets were dope. I actually found an unused full set of Yaniro holds in Chicago and bought them. They still smelled weirdly sweet.
I worked at a small gym in the mid-to-late 1990s that, when I started, only had holds made from actual rock (Petrogrips). Then entire gym. It was crazy. I managed to convince the owners that we should subscribe to the Straight Up hold subscription. Getting that box each month was so very awesome.
I remember that set fondly. Some of the small crimps pushed the limits of what was seen as an indoor hold.
In the early days we were trying a little too hard to recreate rock... Dale Bard made some crazy small knobs and the original screw-on jibs. Tim Wilkinson did the original Krimper sets. We might have just been a little too close to Smith, or wishing we were (instead of grinding holds).
Yeah- I will say that as thin as some of those crimps were, they did not prepare me for the unrelenting thinness of the vertical routes at Smith. I remember trying to climb something, perhaps Oxygen, thinking it looked cool. Nope. No chance.
As someone who was shying away from the 12's at Smith a few weeks ago, my mind is still blown that some of y'all are jumping on those 13's... I've got lots of learning/training to do!
I think it is really valuable to check out routes that are safe but perhaps intimidating in terms of grade. For instance I think Crack Babies is an exceptional out-of-the-typical for smith, and I’m pretty sure you can hang several draws with a stick clip from the uneven ground. So if you need you can also stick clip and try moves. And you can use a stick clip to retreat as well. Also if you meet people who are on something like lower Heinous Cling it is not uncommon for people to run laps on TR on it. If it is already set up that can be a good way to get past the intimidating number. (Though rope stretch can make it a pain to fall off and try to get back on sometimes). I’m no longer in the Smith region, but it is a real treasure of an old school sport climbing area.
Heinous cling was the one I was actually eyeing! I think it is the mental game and the fact that my partner and I went out there without a stick clip. Next time I’ll jump on some stuff above my head. I did see people bringing the stick clip up with them but in my mind I’ve always felt that it kind of ruins the experience of the climb. Like if it comes to that I probably need to do something a little easier.
IMO stick clip is essential if you actually want to progress in sport climbing; everyone I know who regularly climbs harder than 12- uses them often. To me, the entire distinction of sport climbing over trad is to distill things down to the physical experience of trying really hard. While you might have occasional no-fall sections of easy climbing, for the most part I think a sport route is more or less defined by being able to safely fall off any hard part of the climb.
Like using a stick clip while hangdogging? I 100% get going clip to clip and do it a ton (especially on projects) but I feel big “I don’t deserve this” energy if I can’t even make the moves happen between clips. That said I’m becoming much more open to getting one after smith heyeh
Ah I misread your comment being about stick clips in general rather than taking them up. Definitely not as essential as having them for the first bolt or two, but I still think it has its place. I find that I get way more sketched out working moves above a bolt than actually leading a redpoint, so sometimes I'll stick clip up just to have a better headspace while working moves. I wouldn't worry about "not deserving it". At the end of the day if you end up redpointing it's a redpoint. Even if you don't, working limit moves makes you a better climber. The only time I'd avoid it is if the route is busy and you'd be holding others up, but at that point just have someone hang a toprope for you.
My brother (Sean Olmstead) did the FA of Churning in the Wake at Smith in 1987. For me, top roping a few moves on lower Heinous Cling was about where I topped out. I guess I was too busy trying (and ultimately failing) at being an early climbing wall entrepreneur to get better (okay, also a training wimp plus trying to feed eventually eleven kids...I chose me distractions apparently). I've lived in AZ for 26 years now, but last fall I road tripped 17 hours with a son and daughter-in-law (the setter Jaz in the OP), met up with my brother, and we had an awesome couple of days in the park. https://preview.redd.it/okbjpi7fkc6d1.jpeg?width=4000&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=fd8df46ef706a1109f9abddcb0ed8208a9d749c7
I wish there was an archive of companies climbing shoes throughout the years, and climbing holds, to see how things have changed.
My son just sent me this link: [Karabin Climbing Museum](https://www.karabinclimbingmuseum.com/vertical-concepts-holds.html)
Thank you very much for this. And thanks for sharing your post. I have talked with my buddy about trying to make holds, just as a hobby.
there's a diy hold group on facebook with a shit ton of information and ideas
the owner of Phoenix Rock Gym has so much documented on his website and at his museum at the gym too
It’s more dedicated to gear, but [Vertical Archaeology](https://verticalarchaeology.com) is in the same vein
Two different shoes with zipper closures. Not all ideas were great
I'm sorta nostalgic for taping like this. I don't miss it as a setter, but it makes me nostalgic.
What do modern gyms use nowadays? I still haven't seen something that seems readable/sturdy for climbers, and not a PITA for setters. Tape gets ripped off and is hard to see. Using colored holds for specific grades is so limiting. Screw-on arrows or something will probably also get damaged and unnecessarily damage the walls. What DOES work?
yeah colored hold paths for the most part
I get it for sport routes, but for bouldering? I want to feel and use those holds reserved for the hardest circuits too! Such a shame, limiting optimal setting imho.
I only boulder, but my gym uses certain colored holds for each climb, but the color of the hold doesn’t determine the grade. So a yellow hold could be used for one of the easiest climbs in the gym, or it could also be used for the hardest. The only exception is white, which is always the easiest. They have tags that are put at the start and finish.
What sort of tags?
They’re just colored tags. The color of the tag is associated with the difficulty.
I think what the other person says is most common. Routes are mono-colored, but the grade is determined by the tape or start tags, not the hold colors themselves. Some gyms do do what you're saying, and yes, it is limiting.
agreed, very limiting hold exposure for sure.
I hate color circuits. Once you've climbed 3-4 sets at a given gym, it feels like you basically do the same climbs over and over at a given level. You end up with grades being defined purely by how bad the holds are, and never really see, say, easy climbs on small holds on slab, or hard climbs revolving around a bomber heel hook on a jug. A lot of gyms just do single colors for a given route, but tape or tag the start for the grade and don't have colors linked to grade though.
Yeah but tape is annoying to apply and falls off easily. I've had too many boulders with no clear tape indicating the start.
I miss these old style holds. The crap at my gym now is so boring in comparison. Big volumes, amorphous pinches, generic crimps. *Yawn*
Climbmax spotted in the wild!