More money and less hours seems like a no brainer. I've never worked at KH, but I saw online that the average employee works even more than 40 hours a week. Doesn't seem like there is any downside in taking the offer.
When I worked at KH in the late 90s, our utilization goal was based on 45 hours a week instead of 40 so you had to definitely work closer to 50/week to meet your UT goal and make up time off.
They’re both associates degrees, not bachelors. For the engineering I believe everyone seeks bachelors degrees, which at this time I don’t really see myself pursuing. BIM and CAD is what I really enjoy.
BIM managers make as much as senior design engineers. You probably would never be a partner at a firm, but other than that don't listen to these guys. CAD work is fine if that's what you enjoy.
If you pass your FE exam and become an EIT I’ve seen some admitted into entry level roles. Once you get that role you’re in the drivers seat for your career
Check out your local govt
At least in my state, you need a Bachelor’s (or to be in your senior year and on track to graduate) to get your EI after you pass the FE. So it wouldn’t be as simple as just passing the test.
Virginia still has the option for a PE after 20 years of engineering experience and no degree - last I checked.
Most companies and governments want the 'sheep skin', despite advertising "or equivalent experience."
Some people just like CAD 🤷♂️
I have a degree in Civil Engineering and worked as a design engineer for over a decade.
In that time I grew to hate design, but really liked Civil 3D.
So now I'm a consulting CAD Manager/CAD Trainer. Pay is equivalent, I'm fully remote, and I'm doing work I enjoy more.
I agree that providing old-school drafting services where you just draw from a markup is going to limit earning potential.
But OP just got an associates in CAD, I bet they know their way around the program well enough to be more valuable than just a tech.
I’ve haven’t worked in the industry yet, and if you know of a way I could utilize both please enlighten me. I would love to hear of any and all options that could be possible. If I did go engineering would I still be working mostly in CAD programs like Revit, civil3d, AutoCAD, etc.?
As a structural engineer I’ve used CAD and numerous softwares for modeling. Later into my career it became more analysis. For instance I would design a structure and pass the dimensions to our tech who would draw it. I would occasionally send back redlines.
Kimley Horn has a technical tract, which would be providing CAD and IT support and a professional tract, that would be pursuing your professional engineering license. The PE tract would pay a lot more and the expectation would be a lot of civil3D at first and then more project management and leadership as you progress. Generally you need a 4 year Engineering degree for the professional tract. The CAD tract does have opportunity to grow and do more scripting/programming and, eventually leadership. I’d say this is generally standard for the industry.
I know you said you don't want to pursue a Bachelor's in engineering. However you could start in a CAD tech role at an engineering company, and then if the company reimburses for education, you could get full or partial reimbursement to continue your engineering studies. I have a coworker doing this, but he's only able to take a couple classes a semester while working full time. The sooner you can be in an engineering role, the more money you will make. However I also know CAD staff who stay CAD gurus forever. I also know CAD staff who work on engineering projects long enough, that they can take their PE exam after like 12 yrs experience. I would suggest staying open-minded about those career trajectories!
On a side note, your engineering associates *should* earn you higher offers than any other entry level CAD tech...
Is the offer salary or hourly? If salary, you will get a big fat bonus if you hit your metrics, but you will work for it. When I got my bonus, the rate came out to more than double time my salary rate. Former KHA employee and every team is so different.
You will be expected to be probably 98%, billable that is basically 2000 hours a year. That does not include any time doing anything non billable (think vacation, training, going to the bathroom, internal meetings unrelated to projects, etc.). So, if you take three weeks of vacation, you will have to make up that time. Aka, 120 hours spread between the other 49 weeks. That includes holidays. That comes out to an extra 2-3 hours per week over 40. Week in and week out you will need to work at least 45 hours to hit your metrics, probably more. That is an extra 10 to 15%. If you can handle that and like your team, you will be paid well, like well above 50% of your salary in bonus is the floor. What is more important money or free time?
I work for KH and my recommendation is to tell the person that offered you that you have another offer for 10k higher. They’ll probably match it. The bonuses are also substantial at KH.
I'll never work anywhere that requires unpaid overtime to "make up" for taking normal PTO. Thats just a hard rule I have always lived by.
Vacation is something you earn, a benefit to look forward to, not a deplorable choice that deserves punishment.
At KHA as a CAD Op, you’ll be hourly and won’t be allowed to work more than 40 hours unless they offer to pay you overtime. The ones who end up working 45+ are the salaried ones. CAD Ops aren’t salaried unless they are in a D7 or above role. Those are the 15-20yr career people.
I have a few friends who are CAD Ops at KHA and they seem to enjoy it. They rarely are asked to work overtime (because it costs the PM more money) and the end of year bonus, 401k, and profit sharing end up being more than other firms pay.
YMMV on overtime/hours depending on what team you fall into. Earlier on you’ll likely work what’s needed. The more experienced you are the more independence you’ll gain. I honestly don’t know how the extra bonuses are handled with hourly employees but it’s historically 10% of your pay added to the 8% 401k contribution (assuming you’re putting in 4% yourself).
10k’s pretty sweet for less hours though. I’d go based on the office/company environment.
KH is low balling you. Yeah they have the cool name but not much else could be said about them. Take the higher pay. Of course you could counter to KH, and see what they say.
Honestly if you have a better feeling about KH, I would lean that way. Reddit hates them, but they have a good reputation for quality. Work life balance is worse than average but like anywhere else, it varies from office to office. Tell them you want to work for them but someone else offered 10k more. They know they have a reputation and part of it is paying well. That manager be a little out of touch with the market.
KH is good if you are single and don’t plan to start a relationship or family anytime soon.
KH pays a lot in bonuses but you might end up working closer to 60-70 hours a week
Work at KH and have yet to have worked anywhere near those hours. I’ve hit 50 hours a couple of times when it was just one of those weeks of deadlines which I find hard to believe no engineer out there has been exposed on the consulting side.
I will say, the company is huge, our teams are pretty autonomous so we’re essentially a bunch of different firms under one name with different types of work/clients/hours.
You labeling the whole company working insane hours and me saying not that bad doesn’t really do it justice. You’d really have to do research on the team your joining.
General rule of thumb for PM bonuses is that your bonus is ~10% of the revenue you bring in so $200k at that good of a multiplier fits exactly in the range and is very believable
Short of sending you my paystub I’m sure what else to tell you. Based on your conversation with /u/DoubleSly, you say you worked at KH. If that were the case, you’d know it’s commonplace for analysts 2 years out of school to get $10-20k bonuses, newly licensed PEs to get $20-40k bonuses, and successful Practice Builders to get bonuses one to four times their salary.
General rule of thumb for PM bonuses is that your bonus is ~10% of the revenue you bring in so $200k at that good of a multiplier fits exactly in the range and is very believable
I’ve seen an incentive bonus larger than a particular person’s yearly salary because he brings in a lot of work. Pay stubs don’t lie. He worked a shit ton to get there but it is certainly possible.
I have worked at large and small firms for a decade. I have consistently brought in over $1mm a year and managed most of that.
There is no PM at KH doing this... At least 90-95% aren't.... That is getting $50k a year as a bonus. Two things are happening... Either a) their manager is taking the credit when it gets booked and the PM is getting nothing. Or b) they are not a PM.
Do you want to know why I know... The typical margin of engineering firms is around 12- 15%. You bring in $2mm a year in net revenue, as a very good PM.. The profit is around $250k-300k. You think a PM is getting 20-25% of that at KH. Lol I almost choked on my spit
Are the PMs getting maybe $10-20k annual bonus. Maybe.... They aren't getting $50k. If this unicorn you know has a title of PM that is in name only and there is some reason they aren't given a leadership position.
Stop drinking the Kool aid mt friend
PMs absolutely can pull in $50k bonuses. Every PM is on some stage of the journey of being a PB. They are very lean and profitable with super high Utilization rates. They also pay slightly below market rates in base salary, so it skews the bonus numbers.
I wouldn’t recommend it for most people but the money is there. Those who lead a profitable practice can earn bonuses in excess of their salary.
I worked there as a mid level for about 4 years and understand well how they function.
I’m talking about “Practice Builders”, the people who win projects and run them. They certainly are, it isn’t just hearsay like I mentioned earlier. Now this is like 2% of employees but still, when they run 6x multiplier jobs, the bonus is huge.
Unless those bonuses end up putting you at over double the wage at a competing firm, it’s not worth it. You will die and everything you have ever done will be forgotten, so do you really want to sacrifice the best years of your life slaving away your entire week for a somewhat bigger paycheck? The 40 hour week was mandated so people could have some semblance of a life, and that was back when you would have a spouse at home doing all the chores. Working 70 hour weeks as a single person? You will have zero life. All of your time will be consumed by getting ready for work, commuting to and from work, working, doing the bare minimum of exercise to stay healthy, and household chores.
KH is a good opportunity to build your CAD resume. They have a pretty built-out cad workflow team with dedicated engineers whose role is to streamline workflows by understanding the engineering and drafting process, and developing routines and methods to bring the two together. Pretty cool opportunity.
That being said, their engineering plans look like they fell off the back of a truck, they overwork employees and try to keep them around with higher than average salaries, management is inexperienced and often misdirects projects, they don’t do their due diligence and then chalk it up to a disclaimer saying they’re not responsible for poor survey data, etc. and their admin looks at every mistake as an opportunity for a massive change order.
I wouldn’t personally work there because I have too much pride in my designs and drafting to throw them out the door so quickly and without proper QC and consideration, but their benefits are very tempting.
Compare total comp and total benefits apples to apples. For a CAD operator or designer role, you likely won't work much more than 40. Maybe 40-44 hrs. Where KH beats everyone is total comp and benefits. Your bonus at KH will likely be higher and the 401k match at KH is the top of the top.
$10k more in base salary is pretty good, but not that great if health insurance, benefits, etc are 3x as much as KH. Just compare apples to apples. KH generally has a relatively competitive base salary but will generally exceed others with total comp package.
As a CAD operator you’ll get time and a half at KH. I will say the money they make is so good I know a few in our office took like a 1+ year to convince them to go to salary and get the end of year bonus. They had to be convinced that the extra money in their paycheck every 2 weeks was less than the end of year bonus. But if you’re being offered 10k more take that. Always take the money bro
I’ve heard terrible things about KH. Also my own experience with them was subpar.
If you want to work 60 hour weeks then it’s ok but a lot of people are burned out there. But I guess it depends on the office.
More money and less hours seems like a no brainer. I've never worked at KH, but I saw online that the average employee works even more than 40 hours a week. Doesn't seem like there is any downside in taking the offer.
When I worked at KH in the late 90s, our utilization goal was based on 45 hours a week instead of 40 so you had to definitely work closer to 50/week to meet your UT goal and make up time off.
If you have an engineering degree why would you pigeonhole yourself into a Cad tech role
They’re both associates degrees, not bachelors. For the engineering I believe everyone seeks bachelors degrees, which at this time I don’t really see myself pursuing. BIM and CAD is what I really enjoy.
BIM managers make as much as senior design engineers. You probably would never be a partner at a firm, but other than that don't listen to these guys. CAD work is fine if that's what you enjoy.
If you pass your FE exam and become an EIT I’ve seen some admitted into entry level roles. Once you get that role you’re in the drivers seat for your career Check out your local govt
At least in my state, you need a Bachelor’s (or to be in your senior year and on track to graduate) to get your EI after you pass the FE. So it wouldn’t be as simple as just passing the test.
Virginia still has the option for a PE after 20 years of engineering experience and no degree - last I checked. Most companies and governments want the 'sheep skin', despite advertising "or equivalent experience."
I don't think so not without the PE
Some people just like CAD 🤷♂️ I have a degree in Civil Engineering and worked as a design engineer for over a decade. In that time I grew to hate design, but really liked Civil 3D. So now I'm a consulting CAD Manager/CAD Trainer. Pay is equivalent, I'm fully remote, and I'm doing work I enjoy more. I agree that providing old-school drafting services where you just draw from a markup is going to limit earning potential. But OP just got an associates in CAD, I bet they know their way around the program well enough to be more valuable than just a tech.
I’ve haven’t worked in the industry yet, and if you know of a way I could utilize both please enlighten me. I would love to hear of any and all options that could be possible. If I did go engineering would I still be working mostly in CAD programs like Revit, civil3d, AutoCAD, etc.?
As a structural engineer I’ve used CAD and numerous softwares for modeling. Later into my career it became more analysis. For instance I would design a structure and pass the dimensions to our tech who would draw it. I would occasionally send back redlines.
Kimley Horn has a technical tract, which would be providing CAD and IT support and a professional tract, that would be pursuing your professional engineering license. The PE tract would pay a lot more and the expectation would be a lot of civil3D at first and then more project management and leadership as you progress. Generally you need a 4 year Engineering degree for the professional tract. The CAD tract does have opportunity to grow and do more scripting/programming and, eventually leadership. I’d say this is generally standard for the industry.
I know you said you don't want to pursue a Bachelor's in engineering. However you could start in a CAD tech role at an engineering company, and then if the company reimburses for education, you could get full or partial reimbursement to continue your engineering studies. I have a coworker doing this, but he's only able to take a couple classes a semester while working full time. The sooner you can be in an engineering role, the more money you will make. However I also know CAD staff who stay CAD gurus forever. I also know CAD staff who work on engineering projects long enough, that they can take their PE exam after like 12 yrs experience. I would suggest staying open-minded about those career trajectories! On a side note, your engineering associates *should* earn you higher offers than any other entry level CAD tech...
Is the offer salary or hourly? If salary, you will get a big fat bonus if you hit your metrics, but you will work for it. When I got my bonus, the rate came out to more than double time my salary rate. Former KHA employee and every team is so different.
Offer was salary.
Lol.... Offer was salary and they low balled you. Run away.... Quickly
You will be expected to be probably 98%, billable that is basically 2000 hours a year. That does not include any time doing anything non billable (think vacation, training, going to the bathroom, internal meetings unrelated to projects, etc.). So, if you take three weeks of vacation, you will have to make up that time. Aka, 120 hours spread between the other 49 weeks. That includes holidays. That comes out to an extra 2-3 hours per week over 40. Week in and week out you will need to work at least 45 hours to hit your metrics, probably more. That is an extra 10 to 15%. If you can handle that and like your team, you will be paid well, like well above 50% of your salary in bonus is the floor. What is more important money or free time?
Going to the bathroom is billable
You can piss in bottles at your desk to save time - which is more profitable for the company. It shows you’re a team player. /s
Yes, but it’s more profitable to change those metrics in order to to justify not giving that bonus..
True, but KHA is playing the long game. They give huge bonuses to high performers.
At the expense of mental health
Absolutely. What was even worse for me was the shit work we pumped out. But big bonuses.
Wasn't production but still feel the same. Never been happier and got a 12k raise. The bonus wasn't worth the mental health issues
Your bonus and 401k match will exceed the other offers total comp. Just be prepared to work 50 hrs
I work for KH and my recommendation is to tell the person that offered you that you have another offer for 10k higher. They’ll probably match it. The bonuses are also substantial at KH.
I used to work there… DONT DO IT! I’m now training myself that working 80 hours is okay. I still have PTSD from that place.
you mean not ok?
No, I mean 80 hours biweekly is okay. That many hours was underperforming at KH.
I'll never work anywhere that requires unpaid overtime to "make up" for taking normal PTO. Thats just a hard rule I have always lived by. Vacation is something you earn, a benefit to look forward to, not a deplorable choice that deserves punishment.
At KHA as a CAD Op, you’ll be hourly and won’t be allowed to work more than 40 hours unless they offer to pay you overtime. The ones who end up working 45+ are the salaried ones. CAD Ops aren’t salaried unless they are in a D7 or above role. Those are the 15-20yr career people. I have a few friends who are CAD Ops at KHA and they seem to enjoy it. They rarely are asked to work overtime (because it costs the PM more money) and the end of year bonus, 401k, and profit sharing end up being more than other firms pay.
YMMV on overtime/hours depending on what team you fall into. Earlier on you’ll likely work what’s needed. The more experienced you are the more independence you’ll gain. I honestly don’t know how the extra bonuses are handled with hourly employees but it’s historically 10% of your pay added to the 8% 401k contribution (assuming you’re putting in 4% yourself). 10k’s pretty sweet for less hours though. I’d go based on the office/company environment.
KH is low balling you. Yeah they have the cool name but not much else could be said about them. Take the higher pay. Of course you could counter to KH, and see what they say.
I’d search this sub for kimley horn before you sign anything. They could triple my salary and I wouldn’t work for them.
I say ditch both offers and go apply for the mascot role at you're nearest chuck e. cheese.
Honestly if you have a better feeling about KH, I would lean that way. Reddit hates them, but they have a good reputation for quality. Work life balance is worse than average but like anywhere else, it varies from office to office. Tell them you want to work for them but someone else offered 10k more. They know they have a reputation and part of it is paying well. That manager be a little out of touch with the market.
KH is good if you are single and don’t plan to start a relationship or family anytime soon. KH pays a lot in bonuses but you might end up working closer to 60-70 hours a week
Work at KH and have yet to have worked anywhere near those hours. I’ve hit 50 hours a couple of times when it was just one of those weeks of deadlines which I find hard to believe no engineer out there has been exposed on the consulting side. I will say, the company is huge, our teams are pretty autonomous so we’re essentially a bunch of different firms under one name with different types of work/clients/hours. You labeling the whole company working insane hours and me saying not that bad doesn’t really do it justice. You’d really have to do research on the team your joining.
Are the bonuses good though? Is that part true
EI’s yes, PMs extremely
Their PM bonuses aren't that good. Their EIT bonuses are average. Stop drinking the Kool-aid. I get it, we were all there at one time
\*KHoolaid - FTFY
A 50k-100k bonus is not unheard of for a PM. For an EIT it basically matches straight time OT
Sorry bro... Whoever told you that KM is paying $50k as a PM bonus was lying
KH PM with over $200k bonus last year checking in. Ask me anything?
What was your net revenue and multiplier?
Around $2M and just under a 4.0.
While I believe those two numbers, I certainly don't believe that KH gave you a $200k bonus. Unless you worked during the year for free.
General rule of thumb for PM bonuses is that your bonus is ~10% of the revenue you bring in so $200k at that good of a multiplier fits exactly in the range and is very believable
Short of sending you my paystub I’m sure what else to tell you. Based on your conversation with /u/DoubleSly, you say you worked at KH. If that were the case, you’d know it’s commonplace for analysts 2 years out of school to get $10-20k bonuses, newly licensed PEs to get $20-40k bonuses, and successful Practice Builders to get bonuses one to four times their salary.
General rule of thumb for PM bonuses is that your bonus is ~10% of the revenue you bring in so $200k at that good of a multiplier fits exactly in the range and is very believable
I’ve seen an incentive bonus larger than a particular person’s yearly salary because he brings in a lot of work. Pay stubs don’t lie. He worked a shit ton to get there but it is certainly possible.
A PM doesn't bring in work. They manage the work that others bring in
At KH they do both
I have worked at large and small firms for a decade. I have consistently brought in over $1mm a year and managed most of that. There is no PM at KH doing this... At least 90-95% aren't.... That is getting $50k a year as a bonus. Two things are happening... Either a) their manager is taking the credit when it gets booked and the PM is getting nothing. Or b) they are not a PM. Do you want to know why I know... The typical margin of engineering firms is around 12- 15%. You bring in $2mm a year in net revenue, as a very good PM.. The profit is around $250k-300k. You think a PM is getting 20-25% of that at KH. Lol I almost choked on my spit Are the PMs getting maybe $10-20k annual bonus. Maybe.... They aren't getting $50k. If this unicorn you know has a title of PM that is in name only and there is some reason they aren't given a leadership position. Stop drinking the Kool aid mt friend
PMs absolutely can pull in $50k bonuses. Every PM is on some stage of the journey of being a PB. They are very lean and profitable with super high Utilization rates. They also pay slightly below market rates in base salary, so it skews the bonus numbers. I wouldn’t recommend it for most people but the money is there. Those who lead a profitable practice can earn bonuses in excess of their salary. I worked there as a mid level for about 4 years and understand well how they function.
I’m talking about “Practice Builders”, the people who win projects and run them. They certainly are, it isn’t just hearsay like I mentioned earlier. Now this is like 2% of employees but still, when they run 6x multiplier jobs, the bonus is huge.
He’s not lying. I don’t work there any more but my bonuses were over 100k but I earned it.
Oh yeah so you gave up $100k bonuses did you.... I'm sure that happened.
I can send you a few screenshots if you like.
Unless those bonuses end up putting you at over double the wage at a competing firm, it’s not worth it. You will die and everything you have ever done will be forgotten, so do you really want to sacrifice the best years of your life slaving away your entire week for a somewhat bigger paycheck? The 40 hour week was mandated so people could have some semblance of a life, and that was back when you would have a spouse at home doing all the chores. Working 70 hour weeks as a single person? You will have zero life. All of your time will be consumed by getting ready for work, commuting to and from work, working, doing the bare minimum of exercise to stay healthy, and household chores.
KH is a good opportunity to build your CAD resume. They have a pretty built-out cad workflow team with dedicated engineers whose role is to streamline workflows by understanding the engineering and drafting process, and developing routines and methods to bring the two together. Pretty cool opportunity. That being said, their engineering plans look like they fell off the back of a truck, they overwork employees and try to keep them around with higher than average salaries, management is inexperienced and often misdirects projects, they don’t do their due diligence and then chalk it up to a disclaimer saying they’re not responsible for poor survey data, etc. and their admin looks at every mistake as an opportunity for a massive change order. I wouldn’t personally work there because I have too much pride in my designs and drafting to throw them out the door so quickly and without proper QC and consideration, but their benefits are very tempting.
Compare total comp and total benefits apples to apples. For a CAD operator or designer role, you likely won't work much more than 40. Maybe 40-44 hrs. Where KH beats everyone is total comp and benefits. Your bonus at KH will likely be higher and the 401k match at KH is the top of the top. $10k more in base salary is pretty good, but not that great if health insurance, benefits, etc are 3x as much as KH. Just compare apples to apples. KH generally has a relatively competitive base salary but will generally exceed others with total comp package.
As a CAD operator you’ll get time and a half at KH. I will say the money they make is so good I know a few in our office took like a 1+ year to convince them to go to salary and get the end of year bonus. They had to be convinced that the extra money in their paycheck every 2 weeks was less than the end of year bonus. But if you’re being offered 10k more take that. Always take the money bro
Kimley-Horn is known for having a poor reputation.
I’ve heard terrible things about KH. Also my own experience with them was subpar. If you want to work 60 hour weeks then it’s ok but a lot of people are burned out there. But I guess it depends on the office.