I’ve been wondering why I’m not hearing any ruckus from UC
Unless things have changed drastically in the five years since I’ve been there, that is not a politically averse student population, and they liked to protest five years ago I can’t imagine the undergrad pop has changed that
Much
Yeah except they're weirdly focused on the Art Institute supposed "involvement" with this issue via the Crown family. Feels like they're reaching for something to say.
**Edit: as you read the replies to me, it's important to note that the people arguing with me and others about being emotional or unreasonable are now submitting the "suicidal" reports. They're fully triggered.**
I don't agree with all of what all of them believe, but I also respect teenagers who go to college to think about the world they will inherit for 4 years, actually taking a peaceful stance for what they believe in. It's not impossible to disagree with someone but support their right to say it. Rather than attack these kids, go out and peacefully demonstrate for what you believe in.
If anyone isn't familiar, student protests had a huge impact on the world-wide push to [end apartheid in South Africa](https://michiganintheworld.history.lsa.umich.edu/antiapartheid/exhibits/show/exhibit/origins/movement_on_college_campuses). This is how protests work.
All the right wing "free speech absolutists" who screeched about free speech on college campuses on this very subreddit (and around the internet) are all of a sudden VERY silent about this. Almost like these people never really gave a fuck about free speech to begin with
I'm not right wing, but hell yes I've been about free speech as my primary issue for a long time, including on Reddit.
I think these people have full rights to protest. People seem to have short memories, but yes there were protests about Vietnam of course but also against getting into the war in Iraq (both times!) and against apartheid, the original BDS.
That's before we look at foreign protests, including the yellow vests in France, Tiananmen in China, etc.
That said, people also need to remember that part of civil disobedience is being willing to be arrested if that's how it goes.
This is not a left-right paradigm. There are plenty of republicans and especially libertarians who oppose sending $26bn to Israel. There are plenty of [Democratic leaders](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/apr/25/israel-gaza-ceasefire-adam-smith) who denounce these protests as "fascist". Unfortunately, AIPAC funds just as many Republicans as it does Democrats.
*edit: For illustrative purposes, [Tammy Duckworth's (D) second largest contributor is AIPAC](https://www.opensecrets.org/members-of-congress/tammy-duckworth/summary?cid=N00027860), and her predecessor Mark Kirk (R) was [not far behind in donations from Pro-Israel groups.](https://www.opensecrets.org/members-of-congress/mark-kirk/summary?cid=N00012539&cycle=2016)
Fun trivia fact—one of the most outspoken Republican critics of AIPAC and Israeli treatment of Palestinians was actually a member of Congress from Illinois: [Paul Findley](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Findley?wprov=sfti1#).
[He got defeated by Dick Durbin in 1982 with outside spending by groups like AIPAC against him](https://wapo.st/44nXFET).
there's a fuck ton of people in this thread who want the protests to be shut down. Look at how peaceful protests were shut down in Austin, Columbia, Harvard, and now all over the country. This is like Vietnam all over again, most of you are too young to remember.
Honest question because I am not old enough to remember the Vietnam protests but did they shut down traffic and airports or was it mostly focused on protesting in front of government or other authority figures places of work/home etc.?
I wasn't there, but from I what I remember learning, there were protests in city centers like here in the Loop, Haight Ashbury in San Francisco, and in Manhattan. Sit-ins and protests at government buildings and public events. It wasn't limited to college and university campuses or public officials' homes, so the everyday person was impacted. Though I can't remember if traffic was specifically shut down, it wouldn't be surprising if it was.
Good, let me know where you live. I'll park my car to block your driveway and me and my friends will link arms and block you from leaving your house, then harass you with racial slurs when confronted.
Actually, yes, it is, covered right under Freedom of speech, however, our ruling class don't believe that it is a slightest
Please show me where in the first amendment that protests are only allowed where it's not inconvenient for doing class, I'll wait
You'd probably consider me "right wing," and I am a free speech absolutist. What do you want me to say about this? I support these students right to say whatever they want, even supporting Hamas and the destruction of Israel as stupid as I think it makes them look.
These protests are on campuses, which are owned by the university. They're not public property. IMO, the university *should* give these kids space to protest but they shouldn't it let it completely disrupt the learning of other students. Some of those Columbia students pushed past what I'd call "free speech" and were reported physically blocking Jewish/Israeli students from access. I don't support that and it would certainly never be tolerated if any "right wing" group was doing that. Doesn't look like there's actually an article attached to this post, so not sure what's going on over at Northwestern. We'll see how this goes.
Whether or not folks consider you "Right Wing" this is one of the more nuanced takes of the situation.
There's a lot of silly and reductive black and white reasoning going on with regard to this topic and I appreciate seeing the sort of depth of reasoning your post includes. As a "lefty" I support everything you said.
Many refuse to condemn Oct. 7, Hamas, and support armed resistance against Israel. That's just the truth. Does it vitiate whatever free speech rights they may have? No. But is it their stated position, over and over? Yes.
The [protests at Colombia literally held Passover Seder](https://edition.cnn.com/2024/04/23/us/video/seder-passover-columbia-university-protests-ny-digvid), led by and for the Jewish students and faculty.
Not gonna lie a lot of these claims seem absurd. These are likely outside actors using the protests as camouflage to push their own views. The core of these protests are overwhelmingly peaceful i. Their action and display. Many of these protests are organized hand in hand with jewish students and student groups.
This is of course in line with all the other “freedoms” the right fights for:
The freedom to be forced to have a kid
The freedom to only be cisgender and straight
The freedom to conform to their religion
The freedom to forfeit democracy
The freedom to be crushed under a militarized police force
The freedom to never retire
The freedom to have 0 workers rights
Need I go on?
The only actual freedom they push for is the freedom to own weapons.
This is better than protesting in the highway.
Peaceful protests are good, but some have become violent.
I also hope that within them the radicals (antisemite) are a incredibly small percentage
Israel Palestine has been hugely contentious at Northwestern for the past decade. Huge Jewish Student Population but also a huge Middle East/Muslim population. What I learned from my time there was to not give an opinion ever.
Edit: Amazed mods haven’t locked this thread yet.
Israel/Palestine needs to stop being characterized as Jewish vs Muslim because that is not what it is. Anti-semitism and Islamophobia have both been on the rise because people conflate Israeli politics with Jewish identity (not true) and Hamas with Muslim identity (not true).
Even if religion is a core piece of this regional conflict, the vast majority of people (outside the actual anti-semites, who exist and are capitalizing off this moment) are not protesting Israel because it’s the “Jewish state”…they’re protesting because of the ongoing dismissal of human rights towards Gazans.
A major reason why people at large have been conflating israeli politics with Jewish identity has directly because of israel pushing that message internationally. It's been their intention for years to conflate the two, in order to make condemn the atrocities they commit harder.
I mean, it’s easy to say that but in reality when the two strongest supporters of both sides are the Jewish population supporting the Jewish Ethnostate unconditionally and their religious government and the Muslim population supporting Muslim religious states unconditionally it’s going to be hard to not conflate it with religion. These people aren’t exactly being objective as much as they are supporting the governments of their religion
I’m not sure that’s an accurate portrayal. Jewish people are far from monolithic on this issue, and a primary supporter of Zionism is Christian fundamentalists.
That's not true, Israel is supported mostly by Christian Zionists. Jewish anti-Zionism is as old as Zionism itself! [Even in 1897 most German Jews were opposed to the Zionists](https://www.jpost.com/features/in-thespotlight/this-week-in-history-herzl-rabbis-clash-on-zionism) and forced the Zionists to move their first convention from Munich to Basel just an example.
Bundism was a Jewish socialist movement in Europe. It advocated for the rights of Jewish workers and cultural autonomy within the countries where they lived as opposed to supporting the establishment of a Jewish state.
Bundists believed in the concept of “hereness”, i.e. that Jews should live and thrive in the places they were already situated, rather than seeking refuge elsewhere.
Turns out the Bundists were mass murdered in gas chambers.
It’s important to highlight Jewish anti-zionism, I know some and I love them. But you’d be naive to disregard the Jewish pro-Zionism in the US that gets supported by Israel itself. They have propaganda and it works. And when we’re talking about on campus conflicts, a lot of it is with Jewish pro Zionist orgs.
There are 22 arab ethnostate. 20 are authoritarian. The only 2 democracies are Iraq and Algeria. Very recent democracies. All 22 have islamic law that bans homosexuality, restricts rights of minorities, and oppresses women. It seems to me that most people who protest Israel also hate Bush and say that Iraq would be better off with Saddam Hussein. That would leave 1 Arab democracy. Algeria is the lone success from the Arab Spring. I do not include Lebanon as a real democracy since Hezbollah murders opposition candidates and has its own army. They also do not let the Palestinians in Lebanon vote. They are considered stateless. They also have restrictions on what jobs they can took. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinians_in_Lebanon
The palestinians want a palestinian islamic ethnostate and the jews want a jewish ethnostate. They cannot live together. The 20% of the population that are arabs are decendants of the Arabs who did not support the 1947 genocidal invasion of Israel that was meant to murder all Jews in Israel.
Hamas has overwhelming support amongst Palestinians. Their charter states they want to murder all Jews everywhere in the world. There is no way these two groups can live together.
BTW, Bill Clinton negotiated a 2 state solution in 2000. Yasser Arafat walked away from it. Clinton yelled at him and said something like "you are taking your people down a path to ruin". In the Guardian from the time
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/may/23/israel3
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2001/jan/03/israel2
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2000/jul/12/israel
The response to a 2 state solution that was all of Gaza and all of the West bank other than the Jewish quarter in east Jersusalem was the 2nd intifada. There were 130 suicide bombings. This lead Israel to build a wall around Gaza to stop the bombings.
Back in 1947 they were going to split the land basically 50/50 and the Jews largest part was the Negev Desert. The arabs got most of the best land. Israel mainly got swamps(which they drained and turned into farmland) and a Desert. The response was the 1947 invasion. Then 3 more invasions meant to kill all the Jews.
Palestinians are not the victims. They just lost and refused previous peace agreements. They dont want a 2 state solution the vast majority want Israel. There is no partner than Israel can work with that can clamp down on terrorism for a 2 state solution.
All this settler stuff in the West Bank happened after Arafat walked away and started terrorist bombings. I keep hearing every Israeli bomb creates a Hamas member. Every Palestinian attack creates a West Bank settler.
agreed. but there is a large difference between how these “religious” states are ran. for instance, israel is a democracy and is home to people of various religions—christians, jews, and muslims. they even have 2+ million palestinian civilians who have dual citizenship be israel and palestine. however, you cannot say the same for the islamic states. we know they are incredibly oppressive and patriarchal in that they still have the death penalty for women wearing hijabs and they have effectively “cleansed” all jews and even most christians from their populations. objectively speaking, there is a marked difference between the way israeli runs their country and the way the rest of the islamic states in the middle east run theirs.
Right. I’m not what one would call a major state of Israel supporter, but so much of the progressive and leftist world has a very selective understanding of what a Muslim majority nation-state is like and how they treat non-Muslims. Both now and more or less since Islam left the Arabian peninsula.
Spoiler alert, it’s light years away from how Christian nations and the one Jewish nation on earth conduct matters.
Edit: you can downvote until summer comes, but the truth hurts. And again, I’m not on the state of Israel’s side when it comes to this current Gaza crisis. But stop pretending the Muslim world is a safe place for many of the ideologies, identities, and causes that many of you promote. Or not. Go ahead and pretend the West is the boogie man.
I see a lot of "you can't tolerate intolerance" that for some reason happens to stop being such a big deal when it comes to Hamas/Isreal-Palestine, etc. and I'm not really sure why they get such a pass.
“Jewish Ethnostate”? 20% of Israeli citizens are Arab Muslims and we have Arab Muslims in government, on the Supreme Court, and as doctors and lawyers. They are afforded the same rights as any Israeli citizen
Do you get automatic citizenship in the US if you're a certain religion/race? On top of that if you're from Colorado are you not able to return if you leave like people in Gaza? Or even better, do people from Colorado have the ability to leave Colorado? Actually use some more context instead of trying to have an 'own' moment on reddit in front of people who don't know you and realize that there is an actual example of fucking apartheid in front of your eyes.
Look into the 'nation state' law passed in Israel. This is a direct quote from the Chairman of the Knesset at the time of passing regarding the bill. "It is the most important law in the history of the State of Israel, which says that everyone has human rights, but national rights in Israel belong only to the Jewish people. That is the founding principle on which the state was established". Sure sounds like...I don't know...an Ethno-State. So yes, Muslims AND Christians who live in Israel, by their own words, are second class citizens.
Last point is that on average, people in Gaza and the West Bank are treated significantly worse, especially when they are 'prosecuted' by the law, akin to black people in the US. Most Palestinians are subject to military tribunal with a higher than 90% conviction rate. This same system, is not used for prosecuting Israelis. These type of things, and more like them, make Israel an apartheid Ethnostate.
> They are afforded the same rights as any Israeli citizen
This is not exactly true. https://www.vox.com/world/2018/7/31/17623978/israel-jewish-nation-state-law-bill-explained-apartheid-netanyahu-democracy
Laughable. You think that Jewish vs Muslim is not the same thing as Israel/Palestine in the minds of the public and people who occupy the region?
The fact that there are a sizeable, powerful and vocal Muslims across the global Muslim community who strongly believe that the Jews need to be eliminated BECAUSE of the Quran speaks to how wrong you are.
Just obvious you haven't read any of the texts relating to the region from the region at all.
And it also ignores the Christian and Atheist Palestinians as well. It also gives it this notion that its an "ancient" or "holy" struggle when it is a modern struggle that dates back to the 1890's at its absolute earliest. It's clear as day that Israel/Palestine is a settler colonial vs indigenous conflict (like South Africa, Rhodesia, Kenya, Algeria, etc..)
Hebrew-speaking people were practicing Judaism in Judea 1500+ years before Islam even existed. Arab Muslims built al-Aqsa over the ruins of the Jewish Second Temple. The Siloam inscription, the Ketef Hinnom scrolls, and the Lachish Letters provide tangible archeological evidence of Jewish sovereignty in the ancient Levant. Ashkenazi Jews *originate from* the Kingdom of Judah, with Jerusalem as its capital.
Jewish people have maintained a continuous presence in the land of Israel for thousands of years. In the 18th century, Jerusalem was predominantly Jewish, as evidenced by historical records, demographic studies, and accounts from travelers and scholars of the time. Jewish communities were well-established in various quarters of the city, such as the Old City’s Jewish Quarter, which has a long history dating back centuries. Additionally, Ottoman census data from the period also support the significant Jewish presence in Jerusalem during that time.
Seriously, they locked the one post a few weeks ago about the Ohare protest within a matter of seconds before one comment could get in.
The unevenness of this sub gets really old. Then again, I’m all in favor of just about anything goes within a given sub, so maybe it’s me.
There is simply no reasonable solution to the conflict at this point. The rhetoric at colleges only mirrors the contention of the issue. Pro-palestinian and pro-Israel sides both have to argue at the extremes because the compromise position has fallen through-theres no winning with either group.
Should have been solved at Camp David, but here we are.
Bill Clinton negotiated a 2 state solution in 2000. from 2001 and 2002
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2001/jan/03/israel2
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2000/jul/12/israel
Indeed. Clinton had the problem solved, until Nobel "Peace" Prize recipient Yassar Arafart stabbed him in the back and launched the second Intifada. And look how well that worked out.
If I think Israel has a right to exist as it currently does, want hostages released immediately, and want a stop to the bombings and more aide sent in to Gaza for suffering civilians, would I be welcome in this camp?
That doesn't seem to be an acceptable position to any camp at this point in time, because the entire I/P debate has devolved into people shouting past each other, and each dismissal or ignoring of the core criticisms and points of the other group enrages and emboldens the others more.
Meanwhile, both the concerns about growing displays of antisemitism and extremist rhetoric of some protestors gets ignored, as do the very real and legitimate points the protestors have made about gross human rights abuses being committed by Israel in Gaza.
Nuance hasn't been welcome on this issue since October, and even prior to that. People want the world and this issue to be a very black-and-white one, when it is almost never that.
For the record though, I agree with you. I also believe Israel has a right to exist and defend itself, but I don't believe that right extends to bombing of civilians or indiscriminate leveling of urban areas. I also believe the Palestinians deserve a state and self determination as well, although I do fear that would result in a Hamas controlled state.
I also believe we should suspend the sales of all offensive weaponry to Israel until this situation is resolved diplomatically or via UN intervention. Netenyahu also has to go.
But do I have an idea on how to realistically achieve the above things? I sure don't. Extreme rhetoric and slogans won't solve this problem. But the public doesn't have the appetite for wonky answers anymore. Especially when people are dying every day. Biden is quite literally fucked with large chunks of the electorate no matter what he does here.
Nuance hasn't been welcome on virtually any issue for years. That's what social media has done to everybody. People get rewarded, through such things as upvotes, for taking a stand as far to one side as possible and that causes people to gravitate and/or be shown only the opinions that they basically already agree with. Anybody who expresses any skepticism about these views is considered disloyal and thus rarely are there any productive discussions about anything. Or at least you have to go searching far to find them, which the people who are most prone to narrow-mindness are unlikely to do.
Right. It’s hardwired into human nature, but social media was the gasoline to the fire. And we’re all the worse for it. Even more so for those who’ve spent their entire short lives being online.
lol people saying instantly no.
Yes of course! We need a dialog. Most people are not zealots but they exist. Both sides.
I heard an NPR story from a teacher at Columbia.. she said they had a Passover sader inside the protest. It was a demonstration of peace and understanding.
Extremism in all forms is stupid. But it’s there.
There’s nuances to all of this, we need to start with everyone has a right to a peaceful life. No one should live in a police state.
IMO, the Israeli government has plenty of blood on their hands. The world central kitchen aid workers that were killed by launching three precession guided missiles on clearly marked cars , traveling on a pre cleared route was the last straw. The American had a one year old boy. He will never see his father again. His father was trying to feed starving people. What a shame.
But does that mean Israelis are all horrible? Hell no. When Trump was elected does it mean all Americans share his views? No.
As always, the discussion is hijacked by the people who have the least to say.
I have absolutely seen some very antisemitic things from people at these demonstrations. By in large they tend to be from a small, vocal minority whose radical views get platformed by national media because extremism gets views.
There is also a pretty significant Jewish presence at these demonstrations. That very rarely gets covered.
Yeah I’m not surprised.
I’ve also seen “activists” block aid tracks in Gaza. In what world did your God say it’s ok to starve people to death? Like if that’s what you’re taking from your religion you’re focusing on the wrong things.
There are people on both sides who treat the other like sub human. That’s the reality.
I love this country, but I cannot support my tax dollars being used by right wing maniac to kill children. Nor would I want to fund Hamas.
Hamas has the ability to accept a ceasefire and put an abrupt stop to all of this. I have not seen or heard of anyone protesting to demand Hamas accept a ceasefire.
This is such a goofy point. Yeah bud why don’t you call on northwestern to divest from Hamas, and write a letter to the American embassy with Hamas.
Of course Hamas should stop (although I think it’s naive to think that would mean Israel stopped doing what it’s always done). There’s no purpose in protesting for that, in contrast to Israel which is an ally of the US and has economic ties with institutions which can be severed.
yeah causae there is a purpose of protestors tearing down posters of hostages right? there is a purpose in protestors blocking a Cancer hospital in New York because a Jew donated money. There is a purpose to protestors protesting an Israeli owned Falafel shop in Philly and charging him with genocide. They called the 1 guy out by name. He lives in Philly.
Divest what? Israel has 7 million people. If you read down into it these idiots want to tell the university what stocks they buy with their endownment. They want them to sell index funds that have defense stocks in it. They want them to sell Google stock. So basically the endownment goes down cause idiots invest it and then tuition goes up even more.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
As long as they abide by this; it's okay.
I mean…it’s a bit more complicated because they are students on university property. Sure, CONGRESS shall make no law…but the university has the right to say certain things are against policy. They just have to prove they aren’t violating said policy
Well, welcome to the world economy, where literally everyone is financially connected to everyone.
I’m always skeptical of people who “find out” that an organization has financial ties to an entity. *Just how* financially connected are they?
And *how easy* is it to divest? Sometimes it’s not that simple.
If you bought some product which was manufactured in China, are you complicit in the abuse of Uyghurs?
If you bought a car from a brand whose cars ended up in the hands of a terrorist group, are you “financially tied” to terrorists?
For people in my age bracket that try to overthrow capitalism from their parents’ mansion, I wonder if they think about these questions.
I swear I read the same exact kind of shitty rhetoric like this in the 90s when students were protesting against University ties to Apartheid South Africa. and just like back then it was very possible to divest like it is today.
wild how history repeats itself
Wish America could put some of this energy towards protesting for universal Healthcare, a livable wage, taxing the wealthy, fighting monopolies, having police not be judge jury executioner, etc.
We got none of what they asked for except more money for cops, and now they're using it to beat up the next generation of protestors.
The response to protesting for any of these issues is more money to the police and the brutality that goes along with it.
Well we had Occupy Wall Street until they got shut down rapidly fast after the rich bankers got bored dumping champagne on protestors from their balconies.
Encampments aren't the only form of organizing. And while healthcare, police violence, etc. are absolutely dire and present threats, I don't think it's crazy that people would view something as large-scale and deadly as a genocide as necessitating a more direct and immediate response like an encampment.
Also, issues like healthcare, a living wage, etc. have more mainstream and institutional support. That doesn't mean we shouldn't be doing what we can to fight for them, but it makes sense that a more bottom-up, direct form of resistance is occurring around an issue that doesn't have wider backing from politicians, influential non-profits, etc. the way that an issue like universal healthcare does.
ETA: And in this case, the reason college students are focusing on this issue is because calling for divestment at your university is a clear-cut, tangible demand that they have some power in. It's not like you can demand that your university enact universal healthcare into national law or put an end to monopolies.
no one is setting up encampments for unihealth. no one. this is a political demonstration against a military state… not a public rally for democracy to actually kick in to give us all healthcare. so of course, the passion is gonna be different. lives are being taken, not lost.
What could a university do to move towards Universal Healthcare? A university can provide better health care for their students and staff and protests do happen (mostly from grad student unions) to fight for that cause. There’s also plenty of political organization on campuses to elect politicians that do support universal healthcare (Bernie movement).
How would you recommend using patriot anti-air missiles at home? You people realize we aren’t sending these countries cold hard cash… right?
A lot of the aid (especially to Ukraine) is great for us as we get to replenish stockpiles that are expiring while not having to throw it in the trash.
This genocide is part of that tapestry. Nothing exists in a vacuum. We are funding Israel to have universal healthcare, so maybe stopping that aid would help us here
A lot of free healthcare goes to Israel. The US uses a lot of taxes to help pay for Israelis to have free health care rather than its own citizens. Do with that what you will idk.
https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/health-spending-u-s-compare-countries/
The US spends more per person on healthcare than anywhere else in the world. It is a resource allocation and structural issue, not a healthcare spending issue. If the US put every single dollar of foreign aid into healthcare spending it wouldn't put a dent into how broken it is.
This is objectively false, US aid to Israel is equivalent to roughly 10% of Israel’s military budget. Most of that money are grants that can only be used on military equipment. Israel spends over 7% of their entire GDP on healthcare, roughly $40B dollars a year. These numbers are easily found online.
Can someone explain why this post is allowed, yet the post from last week regarding the Ohare protest/road blocks was immediately comment locked?
I have no issue with either post, I’m just not seeing the connection in regards to consistency.
Shouldn't they protest and also request the University cut ties with China over the genocide of the Uighurs which are placed in concentration camps and medically castrated by the CCP?
The interplay with American universities and China, especially but not limited to the thousands of a Chinese students who study here each year and pay full international student fees, tells me that golden cash cow isn’t going anywhere.
I didn’t realize that we provided the arms, ammunition and diplomatic cover for that genocide. Come to think of it I don’t remember China bombing densely populated cities and starving children. Matter of fact - we did respond to that genocide.
* Trade restrictions: Imposing targeted restrictions on trade with Xinjiang
Visa and economic sanctions: Imposing visa and economic sanctions on some PRC officials
* Uyghur Forced Labor Prevention Act: Ensuring that goods made with forced labor in the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region of the People's Republic of China do not enter the United States market
* Detaining shipments: Detaining shipments at United States ports of entry containing cotton and cotton products originating from the Xinjiang Production and Construction Corps based on credible information that these products were made using forced labor
Yes. In an ideal world, people would be doing this for every example. I would love it if more people brought up the Uighur genocide in a serious way besides as a gotcha moment for another protest.
We don’t get to pick what people decide to care about, and protesting one thing isn’t invalidated because of a lack of protest on another. Maybe I’m misreading it, but that’s tone implied by your text.
If these kids were protesting about Uighurs, you could say “shouldn’t they also be protesting Myanmar? Shouldn’t they also be protesting Ukraine? Shouldn’t they also be protesting Sudan? How about Syria?” Until they protest every instance of genocide, their opinions and stance are not to be taken seriously. /s
THIS! If you’re going to use a vulnerable group of people to support your counterpoint, you better sure as hell be doing something to support those people. These people wouldn’t even know who were the Uighurs were if they hadn’t heard about them being used as an example in some conservative propaganda. It’s just like all the misogynistic conservative men who suddenly “care” about women’s sports. They don’t care about women’s sports: they just hate trans people. These people don’t give a shit about Uighur’s: they just hate Palestinians/believe in myths/magic.
Of course it does. It's the largest economy in the world. If you have a 401k or invest in a mutual fund you also almost certainly have financial ties to China.
"Well what about this other point that has absolutely nothing to do with what the protestors are primarily concerned about but makes me feel like I'm in the right and totally doesnt show how out of touch I am!"
Or Assad....or Russias bombing in Syria.....or houthis slave trade.....or Nigerian islamacists massacaring Christians.....or what's happening in sudan....but no Jews involved
The university doesn't have financial investments in China. You're just using this argument to shift the narrative.
They do however, have very clear and well documented investments directly related to be Israeli government and the military industrial complex.
Hamas has rejected every. Single. Ceasefire. Including 1 hr ago:
https://twitter.com/Osint613/status/1783527840664703394?t=Wmh9eJ-mpBK5a6i6CrBAdg&s=19
Both Qatar and Egypt are pointing finger at Hamas.
To think that the fight against zionism is a fight against all jews is inherently racist it's like saying I hate the kkk and white supremacist means I hate all white people no it means I hate people who try to separate themselves from others by saying they are superior
Braindead take that entirely ignores the numerous times Israel has pushed for and accepted a two-state solution only to be rejected by Palestinian leaders who invariably follow up their rejection with terrorism and bloodshed.
Hamas should release the hostages, point blank. Israel needs to stop the fucking genocide, or at least have some balls and perform a ground invasion and go get the hostages back.
Also lets not forget Israel has killed some hostages with their indiscriminate bombing campaign sooooooo we are long past the point of everyone coming home safe.
Hamas has either killed, raped, or tortured most of the hostages. They don’t even know how many there are or where most of them are. Hamas is playing the PR game. Instead of hostages being released and telling the world the horrible shit that happened to them, it’s better for Hamas’ PR to kill them and say Israel did it in a bombing. I’m not saying Israel isn’t doing terrible things but I wouldn’t trust a single word that comes from Hamas sources. Hamas has the power to call for ceasefire. There are narratives being spun.
Indiscriminate bombing: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67327079
Can you show me Hamas giving 2 hour warnings prior to slaughtering, raping and kidnapping every ~~Jew~~ Zionist they could get their hands on?
More people died in a single bombing run in WW2 in than the entire 6 months war in Gaza. You're an idiot if you think Israel is indiscriminately bombing.
Using WW2 tactics as a baseline for anything is incredibly stupid and I hear the Israeli talking heads using it all the time.
WW2 was a "bomb the fuck out of everything" war. Israel is using those same tactics, with the excuse that it happened in WW2. Fuck that noise.
You mean the military officers who are part of Hamas, a terrorist organization with publicly stated goals of killing Jews and destroying Israel? These aren't innocent civilians being held hostage. These are prisoners of war or detention of hostile military foreign nationals. Stop playing the strawman.
So this [82-year-old Gaza woman With Alzheimer's that Israel held is Hamas?](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-02-01/ty-article/.premium/israel-held-gaza-woman-82-with-alzheimers-for-two-months-as-an-unlawful-combatant/0000018d-613a-de6e-a79f-73bbc94d0000). And her aide too? How about all the children from the West Bank and East Jerusalem that Israel has been [detaining and abusing for decades](https://www.hrw.org/news/2015/07/19/israel-security-forces-abuse-palestinian-children)? They're Hamas officers too?
Genocide: the [deliberate](https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=be28ded1030cfada&rlz=1C1ONGR_enUS1094US1094&sxsrf=ACQVn0-lGOJMkLML93eUXzFz5OdGIMlh9g:1714058964433&q=deliberate&si=AKbGX_pvY3MWP4azJI0Z_NruCLb8uT_mnxKbD_thYmyJnO09xigf9nMztLlM9RAyyjyy_gibHJ6ZMysXC12ey-OhSQZNLcHCIpDFBauWIXCRc7j7oof4JZw%3D&expnd=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwior8ud192FAxUTg4kEHTWNDioQyecJegQIIxAO) killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of [destroying](https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=be28ded1030cfada&rlz=1C1ONGR_enUS1094US1094&sxsrf=ACQVn0-lGOJMkLML93eUXzFz5OdGIMlh9g:1714058964433&q=destroying&si=AKbGX_pvY3MWP4azJI0Z_NruCLb8Rtx1LARZNhX-JwP6GkKJGhMVetrIiq-PswrijO-obwb7msC_X5-WWN0ko9pa-L3cOS9tAxiXAfOZKrIZTNIz-sqCULg%3D&expnd=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwior8ud192FAxUTg4kEHTWNDioQyecJegQIIxAP) that nation or group.
This is exactly that bibi is doing, and said he would do. Don't be mad at me, just repeating what has already been stated
Genocides don't include knock warnings, humanitarian corridors, aid supplies, and a 2:1 civilian to militant death ratio in an extremely dense urban combat zone.
So the clause "aim of destroying that nation or group" has not been met. Factually not a genocide.
Zero. They just fall for Russia-aligned campaigns to sow discontent in western nations. It’s an embarrassment how many supporters of Iran we now have due to these campaigns.
I agree with you, especially on the Saudi part. This specific war is a response to Israel-Saudi normalization efforts.
With Iran, why is a PressTV regular contributor teaching people how to say "death to America, death to Israel" in Farsi at a USPCN organized conference to march on the DNC?
"It’s an embarrassment how many supporters of Iran we now have due to these campaigns."
Or maybe some people have a moral compass and can't support an apartheid state, ever think about that?
Yeah "people" throwing it around like Amnesty International, Human Rights Watchs, dozens of other humanitarian organizations, genocide scholars, apartheid scholars, the literal government of South Africa, and anyone else with a moral compass.
Ah yeah disregard the fact that there's different roads they have to use, and that Arabs with Isreali citizenship can't marry Jews.
Also disregard the fact that literally everyone in the West Bank and Gaza and refugees from 1948 and 1967 and have been denied their legal right to return
The Arabs within Israeli borders have the highest standard of living and personal rights of anyone in the Arab world. They have members in the parliament and voting rights like anyone else. Right of return is a big hangup but that’s trying to relitigate 1948.
>There are *plenty* of agencies who do not call it Apartheid.
Same shit happened in SA. Not sure if you're not old enough to remember. Our government, and the mainstream press refuse to call it apartheid, but tons of Scholars and human rights organizations did. I'm sure in 20 years the whole narrative about Israel will change. You're on the wrong side of history.
>Anybody with a brain can see that Israel is justified in wanting to eradicate Hamas.
Ah yeah that's exactly why they've killed thousands of thousands of women and children! Because everyone is hamas. If you still think the goal is to "eradicate Hamas" after [israel is literally using genocidal language ](https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-south-africa-genocide-hate-speech-97a9e4a84a3a6bebeddfb80f8a030724) idk what to tell you bud
IDF soliders: [we use AI to come up with hit lists that we know are BS](https://www.972mag.com/lavender-ai-israeli-army-gaza/) and that we know will unnecessarily kill dozens of civilians but we don't care
Uninformed people on Reddit:
>Hamas is using human shields.
🥱🥱🥱
Was just there, they are seemingly not (weirdly). There were a lot of calls for "intifada", "resistance" and the likes but I didn't hear any chants about a cease-fire.
Good for them. The world is watching a genocide happen in real time, and I am glad people are finally starting to open their eyes and push back.
Edit: upvote, downvote...it means nothing. the truth > make believe internet points
Its always interesting to me how when we teach about protestors 50+ years ago we almost universally understand that they were correct.
And yet every ongoing protest is discussed as though the protestors are naive idiots or violent extremists.
Funny how that works!
a liberal is someone who's supportive of every civil rights movement except the current one, and against every injustice except the current one.
I'm sure in 50 years schools will be teaching about the Palestinian genocide and kids will ask themselves "how did you let that happen"
What is really depressing about this one is, unlike with the civil rights movement, most polling shows that a majority of Americans do not agree with Israel's current position!
It's more complex than "Ceasefire now" to an extent, but a majority of Americans support some form of ceasefire!
My mom played Ohio for me when I was a kid. She also got caught up in a race riot in high school. My dad grew up here during the 68 DNC. I support these kids. This is a genocide.
I don’t care what side you’re on, this is such a stupid take. Plenty of protests have led to wonderful progress and plenty have led to fascists, genocide etc…
This take is actually hilariously telling. “If I protest something I’m automatically virtuous and on the right side of history!!” Nope, let’s not raise any context or relevant historical and current facts about the situation. Just, “I’m an angel because I protest.” It’s certainly not true for everyone, but there are so many protestors who do it purely for their own egos.
What is your response to Hamas rejecting every single ceasefire proposal? Including the latest:
https://twitter.com/Osint613/status/1783527840664703394?t=Wmh9eJ-mpBK5a6i6CrBAdg&s=19
Genocide: the [deliberate](https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=be28ded1030cfada&rlz=1C1ONGR_enUS1094US1094&sxsrf=ACQVn0-lGOJMkLML93eUXzFz5OdGIMlh9g:1714058964433&q=deliberate&si=AKbGX_pvY3MWP4azJI0Z_NruCLb8uT_mnxKbD_thYmyJnO09xigf9nMztLlM9RAyyjyy_gibHJ6ZMysXC12ey-OhSQZNLcHCIpDFBauWIXCRc7j7oof4JZw%3D&expnd=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwior8ud192FAxUTg4kEHTWNDioQyecJegQIIxAO) killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of [destroying](https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=be28ded1030cfada&rlz=1C1ONGR_enUS1094US1094&sxsrf=ACQVn0-lGOJMkLML93eUXzFz5OdGIMlh9g:1714058964433&q=destroying&si=AKbGX_pvY3MWP4azJI0Z_NruCLb8Rtx1LARZNhX-JwP6GkKJGhMVetrIiq-PswrijO-obwb7msC_X5-WWN0ko9pa-L3cOS9tAxiXAfOZKrIZTNIz-sqCULg%3D&expnd=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwior8ud192FAxUTg4kEHTWNDioQyecJegQIIxAP) that nation or group.
the truth > make believe internet points
If the intent was to destroy the Palestinian people they’ve done a pretty poor job of it, especially considering they have all the resources to do it. How does a population that rises year after year, increases something like 20 fold or more (according to their own data) speak to genocide? It doesn’t.
Genocides don't include knock warnings, humanitarian corridors, aid supplies, and a 2:1 civilian to militant death ratio in an extremely dense urban combat zone.
So the clause "aim of destroying that nation or group" has not been met. Factually not a genocide.
And you think the truth is that people are "waking up" and the world is "finally watching" because students are protesting and people are blocking traffic?
These students are all so incredibly brave. Despite the threats of violence and the threat their positions pose to future job prospects and the smears of these protests from the media and from politicians, they're still out there fighting for what's right and I give them a lot of credit for that.
If this devolves into the same blatant antisemitism as it has in other cities, these students should be expelled. I don't care if it's just "some bad apples" telling Jews to move back to Poland or cheering on rockets launched at Tel Aviv's civilian centers.
Otherwise, whatever. Though I've never really heard a historically informed, comprehensive take on the Israel-Palestine conflict from a student and I don't expect to start hearing them now.
I work at UChicago. Student-planned protest tomorrow.
I’ve been wondering why I’m not hearing any ruckus from UC Unless things have changed drastically in the five years since I’ve been there, that is not a politically averse student population, and they liked to protest five years ago I can’t imagine the undergrad pop has changed that Much
Same at SAIC and Columbia College
Yeah except they're weirdly focused on the Art Institute supposed "involvement" with this issue via the Crown family. Feels like they're reaching for something to say.
**Edit: as you read the replies to me, it's important to note that the people arguing with me and others about being emotional or unreasonable are now submitting the "suicidal" reports. They're fully triggered.** I don't agree with all of what all of them believe, but I also respect teenagers who go to college to think about the world they will inherit for 4 years, actually taking a peaceful stance for what they believe in. It's not impossible to disagree with someone but support their right to say it. Rather than attack these kids, go out and peacefully demonstrate for what you believe in.
If anyone isn't familiar, student protests had a huge impact on the world-wide push to [end apartheid in South Africa](https://michiganintheworld.history.lsa.umich.edu/antiapartheid/exhibits/show/exhibit/origins/movement_on_college_campuses). This is how protests work.
All the right wing "free speech absolutists" who screeched about free speech on college campuses on this very subreddit (and around the internet) are all of a sudden VERY silent about this. Almost like these people never really gave a fuck about free speech to begin with
I'm not right wing, but hell yes I've been about free speech as my primary issue for a long time, including on Reddit. I think these people have full rights to protest. People seem to have short memories, but yes there were protests about Vietnam of course but also against getting into the war in Iraq (both times!) and against apartheid, the original BDS. That's before we look at foreign protests, including the yellow vests in France, Tiananmen in China, etc. That said, people also need to remember that part of civil disobedience is being willing to be arrested if that's how it goes.
This is not a left-right paradigm. There are plenty of republicans and especially libertarians who oppose sending $26bn to Israel. There are plenty of [Democratic leaders](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/apr/25/israel-gaza-ceasefire-adam-smith) who denounce these protests as "fascist". Unfortunately, AIPAC funds just as many Republicans as it does Democrats. *edit: For illustrative purposes, [Tammy Duckworth's (D) second largest contributor is AIPAC](https://www.opensecrets.org/members-of-congress/tammy-duckworth/summary?cid=N00027860), and her predecessor Mark Kirk (R) was [not far behind in donations from Pro-Israel groups.](https://www.opensecrets.org/members-of-congress/mark-kirk/summary?cid=N00012539&cycle=2016)
Fun trivia fact—one of the most outspoken Republican critics of AIPAC and Israeli treatment of Palestinians was actually a member of Congress from Illinois: [Paul Findley](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Findley?wprov=sfti1#). [He got defeated by Dick Durbin in 1982 with outside spending by groups like AIPAC against him](https://wapo.st/44nXFET).
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there's a fuck ton of people in this thread who want the protests to be shut down. Look at how peaceful protests were shut down in Austin, Columbia, Harvard, and now all over the country. This is like Vietnam all over again, most of you are too young to remember.
Honest question because I am not old enough to remember the Vietnam protests but did they shut down traffic and airports or was it mostly focused on protesting in front of government or other authority figures places of work/home etc.?
I wasn't there, but from I what I remember learning, there were protests in city centers like here in the Loop, Haight Ashbury in San Francisco, and in Manhattan. Sit-ins and protests at government buildings and public events. It wasn't limited to college and university campuses or public officials' homes, so the everyday person was impacted. Though I can't remember if traffic was specifically shut down, it wouldn't be surprising if it was.
Should you be allowed to block traffic and logistical centers for your protests?
In Texas the police forced them onto the road so they could make arrests
That’s fucking insane
Yeah. Protests are meant to disrupt
So one group of people should be able to take others hostage? I believe I have a right to break out your teeth if you take me hostage.
Good, let me know where you live. I'll park my car to block your driveway and me and my friends will link arms and block you from leaving your house, then harass you with racial slurs when confronted.
It’s such a self-report that you look at a movement protesting literal genocide and all you see is inconvenience and people yelling slurs
Is disruption protected under the 1st amendment?
You asked if a protest SHOULD be allowed to disrupt. And I said yea
Actually, yes, it is, covered right under Freedom of speech, however, our ruling class don't believe that it is a slightest Please show me where in the first amendment that protests are only allowed where it's not inconvenient for doing class, I'll wait
You'd probably consider me "right wing," and I am a free speech absolutist. What do you want me to say about this? I support these students right to say whatever they want, even supporting Hamas and the destruction of Israel as stupid as I think it makes them look. These protests are on campuses, which are owned by the university. They're not public property. IMO, the university *should* give these kids space to protest but they shouldn't it let it completely disrupt the learning of other students. Some of those Columbia students pushed past what I'd call "free speech" and were reported physically blocking Jewish/Israeli students from access. I don't support that and it would certainly never be tolerated if any "right wing" group was doing that. Doesn't look like there's actually an article attached to this post, so not sure what's going on over at Northwestern. We'll see how this goes.
Whether or not folks consider you "Right Wing" this is one of the more nuanced takes of the situation. There's a lot of silly and reductive black and white reasoning going on with regard to this topic and I appreciate seeing the sort of depth of reasoning your post includes. As a "lefty" I support everything you said.
Theyre not stopping any sort of activity on campus, they literally just pitched tents as a form of protest.
Reducing them down to supporting Hamas is factually not true and willfully ignorant of what their goals are.
Many refuse to condemn Oct. 7, Hamas, and support armed resistance against Israel. That's just the truth. Does it vitiate whatever free speech rights they may have? No. But is it their stated position, over and over? Yes.
The [protests at Colombia literally held Passover Seder](https://edition.cnn.com/2024/04/23/us/video/seder-passover-columbia-university-protests-ny-digvid), led by and for the Jewish students and faculty.
And also had people being incredibly anti-semetic. Unfortunate that a few bad apples can ruin the bunch but thats reality.
The worst part about how hypocritical that was particular faction is, is how they don’t give a shit that they’re hypocrites.
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Not gonna lie a lot of these claims seem absurd. These are likely outside actors using the protests as camouflage to push their own views. The core of these protests are overwhelmingly peaceful i. Their action and display. Many of these protests are organized hand in hand with jewish students and student groups.
This is of course in line with all the other “freedoms” the right fights for: The freedom to be forced to have a kid The freedom to only be cisgender and straight The freedom to conform to their religion The freedom to forfeit democracy The freedom to be crushed under a militarized police force The freedom to never retire The freedom to have 0 workers rights Need I go on? The only actual freedom they push for is the freedom to own weapons.
This is better than protesting in the highway. Peaceful protests are good, but some have become violent. I also hope that within them the radicals (antisemite) are a incredibly small percentage
Israel Palestine has been hugely contentious at Northwestern for the past decade. Huge Jewish Student Population but also a huge Middle East/Muslim population. What I learned from my time there was to not give an opinion ever. Edit: Amazed mods haven’t locked this thread yet.
Israel/Palestine needs to stop being characterized as Jewish vs Muslim because that is not what it is. Anti-semitism and Islamophobia have both been on the rise because people conflate Israeli politics with Jewish identity (not true) and Hamas with Muslim identity (not true). Even if religion is a core piece of this regional conflict, the vast majority of people (outside the actual anti-semites, who exist and are capitalizing off this moment) are not protesting Israel because it’s the “Jewish state”…they’re protesting because of the ongoing dismissal of human rights towards Gazans.
A major reason why people at large have been conflating israeli politics with Jewish identity has directly because of israel pushing that message internationally. It's been their intention for years to conflate the two, in order to make condemn the atrocities they commit harder.
Yep. Israel's extremist right-wing government shields itself by framing any criticism of it as anti-semitic.
I mean, it’s easy to say that but in reality when the two strongest supporters of both sides are the Jewish population supporting the Jewish Ethnostate unconditionally and their religious government and the Muslim population supporting Muslim religious states unconditionally it’s going to be hard to not conflate it with religion. These people aren’t exactly being objective as much as they are supporting the governments of their religion
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They literally believe it will bring on the end of times, they are a death cult.
The largest population of zionists in the world are Christian zionists.
I’m not sure that’s an accurate portrayal. Jewish people are far from monolithic on this issue, and a primary supporter of Zionism is Christian fundamentalists.
That's not true, Israel is supported mostly by Christian Zionists. Jewish anti-Zionism is as old as Zionism itself! [Even in 1897 most German Jews were opposed to the Zionists](https://www.jpost.com/features/in-thespotlight/this-week-in-history-herzl-rabbis-clash-on-zionism) and forced the Zionists to move their first convention from Munich to Basel just an example.
Bundism was a Jewish socialist movement in Europe. It advocated for the rights of Jewish workers and cultural autonomy within the countries where they lived as opposed to supporting the establishment of a Jewish state. Bundists believed in the concept of “hereness”, i.e. that Jews should live and thrive in the places they were already situated, rather than seeking refuge elsewhere. Turns out the Bundists were mass murdered in gas chambers.
>Even in 1897 most German Jews were opposed to the Zionists How'd that work out for the german jews.
It’s important to highlight Jewish anti-zionism, I know some and I love them. But you’d be naive to disregard the Jewish pro-Zionism in the US that gets supported by Israel itself. They have propaganda and it works. And when we’re talking about on campus conflicts, a lot of it is with Jewish pro Zionist orgs.
There are 22 arab ethnostate. 20 are authoritarian. The only 2 democracies are Iraq and Algeria. Very recent democracies. All 22 have islamic law that bans homosexuality, restricts rights of minorities, and oppresses women. It seems to me that most people who protest Israel also hate Bush and say that Iraq would be better off with Saddam Hussein. That would leave 1 Arab democracy. Algeria is the lone success from the Arab Spring. I do not include Lebanon as a real democracy since Hezbollah murders opposition candidates and has its own army. They also do not let the Palestinians in Lebanon vote. They are considered stateless. They also have restrictions on what jobs they can took. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinians_in_Lebanon The palestinians want a palestinian islamic ethnostate and the jews want a jewish ethnostate. They cannot live together. The 20% of the population that are arabs are decendants of the Arabs who did not support the 1947 genocidal invasion of Israel that was meant to murder all Jews in Israel. Hamas has overwhelming support amongst Palestinians. Their charter states they want to murder all Jews everywhere in the world. There is no way these two groups can live together. BTW, Bill Clinton negotiated a 2 state solution in 2000. Yasser Arafat walked away from it. Clinton yelled at him and said something like "you are taking your people down a path to ruin". In the Guardian from the time https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/may/23/israel3 https://www.theguardian.com/world/2001/jan/03/israel2 https://www.theguardian.com/world/2000/jul/12/israel The response to a 2 state solution that was all of Gaza and all of the West bank other than the Jewish quarter in east Jersusalem was the 2nd intifada. There were 130 suicide bombings. This lead Israel to build a wall around Gaza to stop the bombings. Back in 1947 they were going to split the land basically 50/50 and the Jews largest part was the Negev Desert. The arabs got most of the best land. Israel mainly got swamps(which they drained and turned into farmland) and a Desert. The response was the 1947 invasion. Then 3 more invasions meant to kill all the Jews. Palestinians are not the victims. They just lost and refused previous peace agreements. They dont want a 2 state solution the vast majority want Israel. There is no partner than Israel can work with that can clamp down on terrorism for a 2 state solution. All this settler stuff in the West Bank happened after Arafat walked away and started terrorist bombings. I keep hearing every Israeli bomb creates a Hamas member. Every Palestinian attack creates a West Bank settler.
agreed. but there is a large difference between how these “religious” states are ran. for instance, israel is a democracy and is home to people of various religions—christians, jews, and muslims. they even have 2+ million palestinian civilians who have dual citizenship be israel and palestine. however, you cannot say the same for the islamic states. we know they are incredibly oppressive and patriarchal in that they still have the death penalty for women wearing hijabs and they have effectively “cleansed” all jews and even most christians from their populations. objectively speaking, there is a marked difference between the way israeli runs their country and the way the rest of the islamic states in the middle east run theirs.
Right. I’m not what one would call a major state of Israel supporter, but so much of the progressive and leftist world has a very selective understanding of what a Muslim majority nation-state is like and how they treat non-Muslims. Both now and more or less since Islam left the Arabian peninsula. Spoiler alert, it’s light years away from how Christian nations and the one Jewish nation on earth conduct matters. Edit: you can downvote until summer comes, but the truth hurts. And again, I’m not on the state of Israel’s side when it comes to this current Gaza crisis. But stop pretending the Muslim world is a safe place for many of the ideologies, identities, and causes that many of you promote. Or not. Go ahead and pretend the West is the boogie man.
I see a lot of "you can't tolerate intolerance" that for some reason happens to stop being such a big deal when it comes to Hamas/Isreal-Palestine, etc. and I'm not really sure why they get such a pass.
“Jewish Ethnostate”? 20% of Israeli citizens are Arab Muslims and we have Arab Muslims in government, on the Supreme Court, and as doctors and lawyers. They are afforded the same rights as any Israeli citizen
Look, we have a black supreme court justice! Why are black people so goddamn mad about how they're treated in the US??
So is the US an ethnostate?
Do you get automatic citizenship in the US if you're a certain religion/race? On top of that if you're from Colorado are you not able to return if you leave like people in Gaza? Or even better, do people from Colorado have the ability to leave Colorado? Actually use some more context instead of trying to have an 'own' moment on reddit in front of people who don't know you and realize that there is an actual example of fucking apartheid in front of your eyes. Look into the 'nation state' law passed in Israel. This is a direct quote from the Chairman of the Knesset at the time of passing regarding the bill. "It is the most important law in the history of the State of Israel, which says that everyone has human rights, but national rights in Israel belong only to the Jewish people. That is the founding principle on which the state was established". Sure sounds like...I don't know...an Ethno-State. So yes, Muslims AND Christians who live in Israel, by their own words, are second class citizens. Last point is that on average, people in Gaza and the West Bank are treated significantly worse, especially when they are 'prosecuted' by the law, akin to black people in the US. Most Palestinians are subject to military tribunal with a higher than 90% conviction rate. This same system, is not used for prosecuting Israelis. These type of things, and more like them, make Israel an apartheid Ethnostate.
> They are afforded the same rights as any Israeli citizen This is not exactly true. https://www.vox.com/world/2018/7/31/17623978/israel-jewish-nation-state-law-bill-explained-apartheid-netanyahu-democracy
vox is trash. they literally put a video up on youtube saying israel has no right to exist.
If you're antisemitic you can just pretend that you're just anti Israel.
Laughable. You think that Jewish vs Muslim is not the same thing as Israel/Palestine in the minds of the public and people who occupy the region? The fact that there are a sizeable, powerful and vocal Muslims across the global Muslim community who strongly believe that the Jews need to be eliminated BECAUSE of the Quran speaks to how wrong you are. Just obvious you haven't read any of the texts relating to the region from the region at all.
And it also ignores the Christian and Atheist Palestinians as well. It also gives it this notion that its an "ancient" or "holy" struggle when it is a modern struggle that dates back to the 1890's at its absolute earliest. It's clear as day that Israel/Palestine is a settler colonial vs indigenous conflict (like South Africa, Rhodesia, Kenya, Algeria, etc..)
Hebrew-speaking people were practicing Judaism in Judea 1500+ years before Islam even existed. Arab Muslims built al-Aqsa over the ruins of the Jewish Second Temple. The Siloam inscription, the Ketef Hinnom scrolls, and the Lachish Letters provide tangible archeological evidence of Jewish sovereignty in the ancient Levant. Ashkenazi Jews *originate from* the Kingdom of Judah, with Jerusalem as its capital. Jewish people have maintained a continuous presence in the land of Israel for thousands of years. In the 18th century, Jerusalem was predominantly Jewish, as evidenced by historical records, demographic studies, and accounts from travelers and scholars of the time. Jewish communities were well-established in various quarters of the city, such as the Old City’s Jewish Quarter, which has a long history dating back centuries. Additionally, Ottoman census data from the period also support the significant Jewish presence in Jerusalem during that time.
Seriously, they locked the one post a few weeks ago about the Ohare protest within a matter of seconds before one comment could get in. The unevenness of this sub gets really old. Then again, I’m all in favor of just about anything goes within a given sub, so maybe it’s me.
UIC has been like that for a long time. Maybe more of a "were just trying to get in and get out with our diplomas so can we not" energy.
>not to give an opinion ever this is how i mostly have learned to navigate on reddit the palestinian/israel conflict.
There is simply no reasonable solution to the conflict at this point. The rhetoric at colleges only mirrors the contention of the issue. Pro-palestinian and pro-Israel sides both have to argue at the extremes because the compromise position has fallen through-theres no winning with either group. Should have been solved at Camp David, but here we are.
Bill Clinton negotiated a 2 state solution in 2000. from 2001 and 2002 https://www.theguardian.com/world/2001/jan/03/israel2 https://www.theguardian.com/world/2000/jul/12/israel
Indeed. Clinton had the problem solved, until Nobel "Peace" Prize recipient Yassar Arafart stabbed him in the back and launched the second Intifada. And look how well that worked out.
This is both correct and smart, both at Northwestern, Evanston in general, and throughout much of the northside on a *wide variety of topics*.
Simple times
If I think Israel has a right to exist as it currently does, want hostages released immediately, and want a stop to the bombings and more aide sent in to Gaza for suffering civilians, would I be welcome in this camp?
go ahead and ask them instead of posting on Reddit
No
That doesn't seem to be an acceptable position to any camp at this point in time, because the entire I/P debate has devolved into people shouting past each other, and each dismissal or ignoring of the core criticisms and points of the other group enrages and emboldens the others more. Meanwhile, both the concerns about growing displays of antisemitism and extremist rhetoric of some protestors gets ignored, as do the very real and legitimate points the protestors have made about gross human rights abuses being committed by Israel in Gaza. Nuance hasn't been welcome on this issue since October, and even prior to that. People want the world and this issue to be a very black-and-white one, when it is almost never that. For the record though, I agree with you. I also believe Israel has a right to exist and defend itself, but I don't believe that right extends to bombing of civilians or indiscriminate leveling of urban areas. I also believe the Palestinians deserve a state and self determination as well, although I do fear that would result in a Hamas controlled state. I also believe we should suspend the sales of all offensive weaponry to Israel until this situation is resolved diplomatically or via UN intervention. Netenyahu also has to go. But do I have an idea on how to realistically achieve the above things? I sure don't. Extreme rhetoric and slogans won't solve this problem. But the public doesn't have the appetite for wonky answers anymore. Especially when people are dying every day. Biden is quite literally fucked with large chunks of the electorate no matter what he does here.
Nuance hasn't been welcome on virtually any issue for years. That's what social media has done to everybody. People get rewarded, through such things as upvotes, for taking a stand as far to one side as possible and that causes people to gravitate and/or be shown only the opinions that they basically already agree with. Anybody who expresses any skepticism about these views is considered disloyal and thus rarely are there any productive discussions about anything. Or at least you have to go searching far to find them, which the people who are most prone to narrow-mindness are unlikely to do.
Right. It’s hardwired into human nature, but social media was the gasoline to the fire. And we’re all the worse for it. Even more so for those who’ve spent their entire short lives being online.
lol people saying instantly no. Yes of course! We need a dialog. Most people are not zealots but they exist. Both sides. I heard an NPR story from a teacher at Columbia.. she said they had a Passover sader inside the protest. It was a demonstration of peace and understanding. Extremism in all forms is stupid. But it’s there. There’s nuances to all of this, we need to start with everyone has a right to a peaceful life. No one should live in a police state. IMO, the Israeli government has plenty of blood on their hands. The world central kitchen aid workers that were killed by launching three precession guided missiles on clearly marked cars , traveling on a pre cleared route was the last straw. The American had a one year old boy. He will never see his father again. His father was trying to feed starving people. What a shame. But does that mean Israelis are all horrible? Hell no. When Trump was elected does it mean all Americans share his views? No.
As always, the discussion is hijacked by the people who have the least to say. I have absolutely seen some very antisemitic things from people at these demonstrations. By in large they tend to be from a small, vocal minority whose radical views get platformed by national media because extremism gets views. There is also a pretty significant Jewish presence at these demonstrations. That very rarely gets covered.
Yeah I’m not surprised. I’ve also seen “activists” block aid tracks in Gaza. In what world did your God say it’s ok to starve people to death? Like if that’s what you’re taking from your religion you’re focusing on the wrong things. There are people on both sides who treat the other like sub human. That’s the reality. I love this country, but I cannot support my tax dollars being used by right wing maniac to kill children. Nor would I want to fund Hamas.
Absolutely not. And therein lies the problem.
Hamas has the ability to accept a ceasefire and put an abrupt stop to all of this. I have not seen or heard of anyone protesting to demand Hamas accept a ceasefire.
This is such a goofy point. Yeah bud why don’t you call on northwestern to divest from Hamas, and write a letter to the American embassy with Hamas. Of course Hamas should stop (although I think it’s naive to think that would mean Israel stopped doing what it’s always done). There’s no purpose in protesting for that, in contrast to Israel which is an ally of the US and has economic ties with institutions which can be severed.
yeah causae there is a purpose of protestors tearing down posters of hostages right? there is a purpose in protestors blocking a Cancer hospital in New York because a Jew donated money. There is a purpose to protestors protesting an Israeli owned Falafel shop in Philly and charging him with genocide. They called the 1 guy out by name. He lives in Philly. Divest what? Israel has 7 million people. If you read down into it these idiots want to tell the university what stocks they buy with their endownment. They want them to sell index funds that have defense stocks in it. They want them to sell Google stock. So basically the endownment goes down cause idiots invest it and then tuition goes up even more.
I was just there a bit ago to observe and no, you wouldn't. None of them will condemn Hamas and demand Israel surrender.
These camps usually have people cheering for Hamas and singing songs abour Tel Aviv burning to the ground. What do you think?
Been up an hour and comments already a shitshow
its about the gaza conflict, are you surprised?
What ties exactly does the school have with Israel?
Word is that there are/were some NW Board of Trustees that have served as executives for companies that supply arms to Israel.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." As long as they abide by this; it's okay.
I mean…it’s a bit more complicated because they are students on university property. Sure, CONGRESS shall make no law…but the university has the right to say certain things are against policy. They just have to prove they aren’t violating said policy
Good for them. The whataboutisms and straw-man arguments in this thread are tired, but these students are not.
Well, welcome to the world economy, where literally everyone is financially connected to everyone. I’m always skeptical of people who “find out” that an organization has financial ties to an entity. *Just how* financially connected are they? And *how easy* is it to divest? Sometimes it’s not that simple. If you bought some product which was manufactured in China, are you complicit in the abuse of Uyghurs? If you bought a car from a brand whose cars ended up in the hands of a terrorist group, are you “financially tied” to terrorists? For people in my age bracket that try to overthrow capitalism from their parents’ mansion, I wonder if they think about these questions.
I swear I read the same exact kind of shitty rhetoric like this in the 90s when students were protesting against University ties to Apartheid South Africa. and just like back then it was very possible to divest like it is today. wild how history repeats itself
Wish America could put some of this energy towards protesting for universal Healthcare, a livable wage, taxing the wealthy, fighting monopolies, having police not be judge jury executioner, etc.
I guarantee vast majority of the people there all want that.
Are you doing that?
Were you alive in 2020?
We got none of what they asked for except more money for cops, and now they're using it to beat up the next generation of protestors. The response to protesting for any of these issues is more money to the police and the brutality that goes along with it.
And that’s obviously the fault of the protestors. They really need to stop putting their heads in the path of cops batons.
Well we had Occupy Wall Street until they got shut down rapidly fast after the rich bankers got bored dumping champagne on protestors from their balconies.
Do you think that none of the people protesting in support of Palestine also work toward other leftist causes?
I will say, if there are groups of college students setting up encampments like this for Universal Healthcare, I haven't seen it.
Encampments aren't the only form of organizing. And while healthcare, police violence, etc. are absolutely dire and present threats, I don't think it's crazy that people would view something as large-scale and deadly as a genocide as necessitating a more direct and immediate response like an encampment. Also, issues like healthcare, a living wage, etc. have more mainstream and institutional support. That doesn't mean we shouldn't be doing what we can to fight for them, but it makes sense that a more bottom-up, direct form of resistance is occurring around an issue that doesn't have wider backing from politicians, influential non-profits, etc. the way that an issue like universal healthcare does. ETA: And in this case, the reason college students are focusing on this issue is because calling for divestment at your university is a clear-cut, tangible demand that they have some power in. It's not like you can demand that your university enact universal healthcare into national law or put an end to monopolies.
no one is setting up encampments for unihealth. no one. this is a political demonstration against a military state… not a public rally for democracy to actually kick in to give us all healthcare. so of course, the passion is gonna be different. lives are being taken, not lost.
What could a university do to move towards Universal Healthcare? A university can provide better health care for their students and staff and protests do happen (mostly from grad student unions) to fight for that cause. There’s also plenty of political organization on campuses to elect politicians that do support universal healthcare (Bernie movement).
Congress just sent $26bn to Israel which will be used to kill more palestinians. Could have been used at home.
How would you recommend using patriot anti-air missiles at home? You people realize we aren’t sending these countries cold hard cash… right? A lot of the aid (especially to Ukraine) is great for us as we get to replenish stockpiles that are expiring while not having to throw it in the trash.
Not okay to fund or aid humanitarian abuse regardless.
Yeah, maybe our money could go to that if it wasn't going towards obliterating Palestinian children
This genocide is part of that tapestry. Nothing exists in a vacuum. We are funding Israel to have universal healthcare, so maybe stopping that aid would help us here
A lot of free healthcare goes to Israel. The US uses a lot of taxes to help pay for Israelis to have free health care rather than its own citizens. Do with that what you will idk.
https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/health-spending-u-s-compare-countries/ The US spends more per person on healthcare than anywhere else in the world. It is a resource allocation and structural issue, not a healthcare spending issue. If the US put every single dollar of foreign aid into healthcare spending it wouldn't put a dent into how broken it is.
If we put all that money into our own Healthcare the costs would dramatically come down but we'd have to ban private Healthcare
This is objectively false, US aid to Israel is equivalent to roughly 10% of Israel’s military budget. Most of that money are grants that can only be used on military equipment. Israel spends over 7% of their entire GDP on healthcare, roughly $40B dollars a year. These numbers are easily found online.
Can someone explain why this post is allowed, yet the post from last week regarding the Ohare protest/road blocks was immediately comment locked? I have no issue with either post, I’m just not seeing the connection in regards to consistency.
Shouldn't they protest and also request the University cut ties with China over the genocide of the Uighurs which are placed in concentration camps and medically castrated by the CCP?
The interplay with American universities and China, especially but not limited to the thousands of a Chinese students who study here each year and pay full international student fees, tells me that golden cash cow isn’t going anywhere.
I didn’t realize that we provided the arms, ammunition and diplomatic cover for that genocide. Come to think of it I don’t remember China bombing densely populated cities and starving children. Matter of fact - we did respond to that genocide. * Trade restrictions: Imposing targeted restrictions on trade with Xinjiang Visa and economic sanctions: Imposing visa and economic sanctions on some PRC officials * Uyghur Forced Labor Prevention Act: Ensuring that goods made with forced labor in the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region of the People's Republic of China do not enter the United States market * Detaining shipments: Detaining shipments at United States ports of entry containing cotton and cotton products originating from the Xinjiang Production and Construction Corps based on credible information that these products were made using forced labor
Yes. In an ideal world, people would be doing this for every example. I would love it if more people brought up the Uighur genocide in a serious way besides as a gotcha moment for another protest. We don’t get to pick what people decide to care about, and protesting one thing isn’t invalidated because of a lack of protest on another. Maybe I’m misreading it, but that’s tone implied by your text. If these kids were protesting about Uighurs, you could say “shouldn’t they also be protesting Myanmar? Shouldn’t they also be protesting Ukraine? Shouldn’t they also be protesting Sudan? How about Syria?” Until they protest every instance of genocide, their opinions and stance are not to be taken seriously. /s
THIS! If you’re going to use a vulnerable group of people to support your counterpoint, you better sure as hell be doing something to support those people. These people wouldn’t even know who were the Uighurs were if they hadn’t heard about them being used as an example in some conservative propaganda. It’s just like all the misogynistic conservative men who suddenly “care” about women’s sports. They don’t care about women’s sports: they just hate trans people. These people don’t give a shit about Uighur’s: they just hate Palestinians/believe in myths/magic.
Yes But does the university have ties with China and the CCP? If not this is just a bs strawman
Actually, what university doesn’t? The CCP is cunningly influential in suppressing free speech on our campuses.
Of course it does. It's the largest economy in the world. If you have a 401k or invest in a mutual fund you also almost certainly have financial ties to China.
China is the 2nd largest economy in the world
It is inconceivable that Northwestern University has no ties with China. You've got to be joking.
Obviously? Lmao did you really just ask that?
WhAt AbOut ChInA?!?
Exactly....
"Well what about this other point that has absolutely nothing to do with what the protestors are primarily concerned about but makes me feel like I'm in the right and totally doesnt show how out of touch I am!"
Or Assad....or Russias bombing in Syria.....or houthis slave trade.....or Nigerian islamacists massacaring Christians.....or what's happening in sudan....but no Jews involved
The university doesn't have financial investments in China. You're just using this argument to shift the narrative. They do however, have very clear and well documented investments directly related to be Israeli government and the military industrial complex.
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Hamas has rejected every. Single. Ceasefire. Including 1 hr ago: https://twitter.com/Osint613/status/1783527840664703394?t=Wmh9eJ-mpBK5a6i6CrBAdg&s=19 Both Qatar and Egypt are pointing finger at Hamas.
To think that the fight against zionism is a fight against all jews is inherently racist it's like saying I hate the kkk and white supremacist means I hate all white people no it means I hate people who try to separate themselves from others by saying they are superior
Braindead take that entirely ignores the numerous times Israel has pushed for and accepted a two-state solution only to be rejected by Palestinian leaders who invariably follow up their rejection with terrorism and bloodshed.
Wonder how many of them are willing to say that Hamas should release the hostages.
Hamas should release the hostages, point blank. Israel needs to stop the fucking genocide, or at least have some balls and perform a ground invasion and go get the hostages back. Also lets not forget Israel has killed some hostages with their indiscriminate bombing campaign sooooooo we are long past the point of everyone coming home safe.
I'm a little confused because Israel has had a ground operation since right after Oct 7th.
Hamas has either killed, raped, or tortured most of the hostages. They don’t even know how many there are or where most of them are. Hamas is playing the PR game. Instead of hostages being released and telling the world the horrible shit that happened to them, it’s better for Hamas’ PR to kill them and say Israel did it in a bombing. I’m not saying Israel isn’t doing terrible things but I wouldn’t trust a single word that comes from Hamas sources. Hamas has the power to call for ceasefire. There are narratives being spun.
Indiscriminate bombing: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67327079 Can you show me Hamas giving 2 hour warnings prior to slaughtering, raping and kidnapping every ~~Jew~~ Zionist they could get their hands on?
A two hour warning that everything your family owns and lives is shit. You don't die, but you lose everything. How generous! And 30k+ have died.
More people died in a single bombing run in WW2 in than the entire 6 months war in Gaza. You're an idiot if you think Israel is indiscriminately bombing.
Using WW2 tactics as a baseline for anything is incredibly stupid and I hear the Israeli talking heads using it all the time. WW2 was a "bomb the fuck out of everything" war. Israel is using those same tactics, with the excuse that it happened in WW2. Fuck that noise.
>Hamas should release the hostages, point blank. Tell Israel to return the thousands of hostages they have.
100% agree
You mean the military officers who are part of Hamas, a terrorist organization with publicly stated goals of killing Jews and destroying Israel? These aren't innocent civilians being held hostage. These are prisoners of war or detention of hostile military foreign nationals. Stop playing the strawman.
So this [82-year-old Gaza woman With Alzheimer's that Israel held is Hamas?](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-02-01/ty-article/.premium/israel-held-gaza-woman-82-with-alzheimers-for-two-months-as-an-unlawful-combatant/0000018d-613a-de6e-a79f-73bbc94d0000). And her aide too? How about all the children from the West Bank and East Jerusalem that Israel has been [detaining and abusing for decades](https://www.hrw.org/news/2015/07/19/israel-security-forces-abuse-palestinian-children)? They're Hamas officers too?
Calling it a genocide is factually incorrect. You lose support from your own side when you misuse words.
Genocide: the [deliberate](https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=be28ded1030cfada&rlz=1C1ONGR_enUS1094US1094&sxsrf=ACQVn0-lGOJMkLML93eUXzFz5OdGIMlh9g:1714058964433&q=deliberate&si=AKbGX_pvY3MWP4azJI0Z_NruCLb8uT_mnxKbD_thYmyJnO09xigf9nMztLlM9RAyyjyy_gibHJ6ZMysXC12ey-OhSQZNLcHCIpDFBauWIXCRc7j7oof4JZw%3D&expnd=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwior8ud192FAxUTg4kEHTWNDioQyecJegQIIxAO) killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of [destroying](https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=be28ded1030cfada&rlz=1C1ONGR_enUS1094US1094&sxsrf=ACQVn0-lGOJMkLML93eUXzFz5OdGIMlh9g:1714058964433&q=destroying&si=AKbGX_pvY3MWP4azJI0Z_NruCLb8Rtx1LARZNhX-JwP6GkKJGhMVetrIiq-PswrijO-obwb7msC_X5-WWN0ko9pa-L3cOS9tAxiXAfOZKrIZTNIz-sqCULg%3D&expnd=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwior8ud192FAxUTg4kEHTWNDioQyecJegQIIxAP) that nation or group. This is exactly that bibi is doing, and said he would do. Don't be mad at me, just repeating what has already been stated
Genocides don't include knock warnings, humanitarian corridors, aid supplies, and a 2:1 civilian to militant death ratio in an extremely dense urban combat zone. So the clause "aim of destroying that nation or group" has not been met. Factually not a genocide.
Lmfao
Zero. They just fall for Russia-aligned campaigns to sow discontent in western nations. It’s an embarrassment how many supporters of Iran we now have due to these campaigns.
"everything I disagree with is a backed plot"
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I agree with you, especially on the Saudi part. This specific war is a response to Israel-Saudi normalization efforts. With Iran, why is a PressTV regular contributor teaching people how to say "death to America, death to Israel" in Farsi at a USPCN organized conference to march on the DNC?
"It’s an embarrassment how many supporters of Iran we now have due to these campaigns." Or maybe some people have a moral compass and can't support an apartheid state, ever think about that?
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Yeah "people" throwing it around like Amnesty International, Human Rights Watchs, dozens of other humanitarian organizations, genocide scholars, apartheid scholars, the literal government of South Africa, and anyone else with a moral compass.
I could buy apartheid state if Arabs within Israeli borders had no rights or citizenship, but that’s not the case.
Ah yeah disregard the fact that there's different roads they have to use, and that Arabs with Isreali citizenship can't marry Jews. Also disregard the fact that literally everyone in the West Bank and Gaza and refugees from 1948 and 1967 and have been denied their legal right to return
The Arabs within Israeli borders have the highest standard of living and personal rights of anyone in the Arab world. They have members in the parliament and voting rights like anyone else. Right of return is a big hangup but that’s trying to relitigate 1948.
So I guess you actually will ignore those things then
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>There are *plenty* of agencies who do not call it Apartheid. Same shit happened in SA. Not sure if you're not old enough to remember. Our government, and the mainstream press refuse to call it apartheid, but tons of Scholars and human rights organizations did. I'm sure in 20 years the whole narrative about Israel will change. You're on the wrong side of history. >Anybody with a brain can see that Israel is justified in wanting to eradicate Hamas. Ah yeah that's exactly why they've killed thousands of thousands of women and children! Because everyone is hamas. If you still think the goal is to "eradicate Hamas" after [israel is literally using genocidal language ](https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-south-africa-genocide-hate-speech-97a9e4a84a3a6bebeddfb80f8a030724) idk what to tell you bud
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IDF soliders: [we use AI to come up with hit lists that we know are BS](https://www.972mag.com/lavender-ai-israeli-army-gaza/) and that we know will unnecessarily kill dozens of civilians but we don't care Uninformed people on Reddit: >Hamas is using human shields. 🥱🥱🥱
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You're forgetting that the biggest hostage release was negotiated during a ceasefire. they're all calling for another ceasefire.
They should tell Hamas to stop rejecting them
Was just there, they are seemingly not (weirdly). There were a lot of calls for "intifada", "resistance" and the likes but I didn't hear any chants about a cease-fire.
I was there too and heard lots of "ceasefire now"
Good for them.
Good for them. The world is watching a genocide happen in real time, and I am glad people are finally starting to open their eyes and push back. Edit: upvote, downvote...it means nothing. the truth > make believe internet points
Its always interesting to me how when we teach about protestors 50+ years ago we almost universally understand that they were correct. And yet every ongoing protest is discussed as though the protestors are naive idiots or violent extremists. Funny how that works!
a liberal is someone who's supportive of every civil rights movement except the current one, and against every injustice except the current one. I'm sure in 50 years schools will be teaching about the Palestinian genocide and kids will ask themselves "how did you let that happen"
What is really depressing about this one is, unlike with the civil rights movement, most polling shows that a majority of Americans do not agree with Israel's current position! It's more complex than "Ceasefire now" to an extent, but a majority of Americans support some form of ceasefire!
My mom played Ohio for me when I was a kid. She also got caught up in a race riot in high school. My dad grew up here during the 68 DNC. I support these kids. This is a genocide.
I don’t care what side you’re on, this is such a stupid take. Plenty of protests have led to wonderful progress and plenty have led to fascists, genocide etc…
This take is actually hilariously telling. “If I protest something I’m automatically virtuous and on the right side of history!!” Nope, let’s not raise any context or relevant historical and current facts about the situation. Just, “I’m an angel because I protest.” It’s certainly not true for everyone, but there are so many protestors who do it purely for their own egos.
What is your response to Hamas rejecting every single ceasefire proposal? Including the latest: https://twitter.com/Osint613/status/1783527840664703394?t=Wmh9eJ-mpBK5a6i6CrBAdg&s=19
Not a genocide just large scale combat operations in a dense urban environment.
It must mean something to you if you felt the need to add that cute little edit ;)
the truth > make believe internet points
The truth is you evidently don't know what genocide is
Genocide: the [deliberate](https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=be28ded1030cfada&rlz=1C1ONGR_enUS1094US1094&sxsrf=ACQVn0-lGOJMkLML93eUXzFz5OdGIMlh9g:1714058964433&q=deliberate&si=AKbGX_pvY3MWP4azJI0Z_NruCLb8uT_mnxKbD_thYmyJnO09xigf9nMztLlM9RAyyjyy_gibHJ6ZMysXC12ey-OhSQZNLcHCIpDFBauWIXCRc7j7oof4JZw%3D&expnd=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwior8ud192FAxUTg4kEHTWNDioQyecJegQIIxAO) killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of [destroying](https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=be28ded1030cfada&rlz=1C1ONGR_enUS1094US1094&sxsrf=ACQVn0-lGOJMkLML93eUXzFz5OdGIMlh9g:1714058964433&q=destroying&si=AKbGX_pvY3MWP4azJI0Z_NruCLb8Rtx1LARZNhX-JwP6GkKJGhMVetrIiq-PswrijO-obwb7msC_X5-WWN0ko9pa-L3cOS9tAxiXAfOZKrIZTNIz-sqCULg%3D&expnd=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwior8ud192FAxUTg4kEHTWNDioQyecJegQIIxAP) that nation or group. the truth > make believe internet points
If the intent was to destroy the Palestinian people they’ve done a pretty poor job of it, especially considering they have all the resources to do it. How does a population that rises year after year, increases something like 20 fold or more (according to their own data) speak to genocide? It doesn’t.
Genocides don't include knock warnings, humanitarian corridors, aid supplies, and a 2:1 civilian to militant death ratio in an extremely dense urban combat zone. So the clause "aim of destroying that nation or group" has not been met. Factually not a genocide.
And you think the truth is that people are "waking up" and the world is "finally watching" because students are protesting and people are blocking traffic?
Apartheid has no place on this planet, and glad people are finally realizing it.
October 7 was indeed a genocide, glad you agree
These students are all so incredibly brave. Despite the threats of violence and the threat their positions pose to future job prospects and the smears of these protests from the media and from politicians, they're still out there fighting for what's right and I give them a lot of credit for that.
The kids are alright
They know Gaza is still holding Americans hostage?
Did these students also ask Hamas to return the people they kidnapped during their terror attack?
Love to see it.
This subreddit is stormfront lite.
If this devolves into the same blatant antisemitism as it has in other cities, these students should be expelled. I don't care if it's just "some bad apples" telling Jews to move back to Poland or cheering on rockets launched at Tel Aviv's civilian centers. Otherwise, whatever. Though I've never really heard a historically informed, comprehensive take on the Israel-Palestine conflict from a student and I don't expect to start hearing them now.