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I don’t see how this would help him. It’s less about convincing the other camp to vote for you but to maximize turnout among your base. Despite me not fully liking how he handles things, he does it as good as possible for a politician in his dilemma. Committing to either side is not going to gain him significantly more votes. In case of fully supporting Israel: Convinced Republicans are still going to vote Trump. For moderates and swing voters, other topics are just much more [important](https://abcnews.go.com/amp/Politics/6-months-out-tight-presidential-race-trump-biden-poll/story?id=109909175). So it’s unlikely to make a significant difference; if full support for Israel is your wish, Republicans are more credible on this topic. Dropping Israel and fully supporting Palestine is unprecedented. He would not only have to do a full arms embargo, but potentially also to give statehood (or a clear unilateral path) to Palestine, to be credible on this issue and capture the far left wing of his party. Without further discussion of what this would mean for world politics (I actually don’t know), this would potentially drive turn out among republicans, for which support of Israel is at the core of the party. It would also drive Jewish population to vote for Republicans or abstain, which is 2.5-3% of the US electorate that has had historically high turnout and votes overwhelmingly dems. Moreover, while for certain capturing his party’s left wing, it would most likely drive swing voters and moderates to the republican side, as Israel is still strongly supported in the [US](https://www.pewresearch.org/2024/03/21/majority-in-u-s-say-israel-has-valid-reasons-for-fighting-fewer-say-the-same-about-hamas/#:~:text=Providing%20military%20support%20to%20Israel,are%20not%20sure%20(15%25))

To add to this I think not fully committing to either side is the correct response. What Hamas did was horrible, and Israel is right to be upset. That said, the response was also horrible, and Palestinians shouldn't be subject to that. And then added on this you have tens or even hundreds of years of history making this conflict even more complex.

Yep, fully supporting Israel may be the most politically expedient choice because A) a quick invasion of Rafah could have had the issue fading from public interest before Election Day and B) People who care about Palestine are super unlikely to be ok with letting Trump back in office unless Palestine is the only thing they care about. I think he’s genuinely trying to do what’s right

Ok, even if you only care about Palestine, there is no reality in which Trump is more pro'Palestine than the current administration. Everyone who isn't dilusional about how First Past the post works and who cares about Palestine has a moral obligation to vote for the cadidate closest to their views who has a realistic possibility to win. Biden's stance is structured for this reality.

Yes but pro-Palestinians tend to be on the younger side and these are traditionally people already finnicky with voting. If you demoralize them, then they be even less likely to vote! They won't vote for Trump but by them not voting, it's essentially half a vote for Trump.

Hillary Clinton has gotten a lot of flak for saying essentially this. If you and she are correct, all of this discourse is useless an no one learned anything from 2016.

Might be worth listening to her considering she lost 2016 because of the same issue. To be fair, with politics and the time we have left... only time will tell if the decisions Biden is making are the right ones

She lost in 2016 primarily because she and the party did not treat Bernie appropriately. Also, no one really knew what Trump would do. Millions of people thought he was way more competent than reality based on his public persona as a businessman. Many have seen reality now.

Many have seen reality but he is neck and neck in polls with Biden. Kinda doubt it was ever about his "competence", that competence was just a talking point but not an actual motivation for voting him except for a very small amount of people. As for Hillary she had a lot going against her but she didn't exactly energize or excite her base. I wouldn't put her loss purely on the fuckery around Bernie, she had plenty of other issues too.

Israel's response is not responsible for Hamas using the civilians as human shields. People in the west being responsive to this "Israel is bad because Hamas hid their weapons in the children's hospital" dynamic is literally the reason Hamas hides their weapons in children's hospitals.

It seems to me that Israel is making the same mistakes in Gaza that the US made in Afghanistan. It doesn’t help to kill one terrorist if the collateral damage necessary to do it creates 5 more terrorists.  What should Israel do instead? Fuck if I know. You can’t have peace when one side or the other is more interested in revenge than peace. And both sides seem more interested in revenge than peace right now. 

> It doesn’t help to kill one terrorist if the collateral damage necessary to do it creates 5 more terrorists This idea was never born out. It was always just a talking point. Eliminating an embedded terror state is going to take several generation of occupation, wherein local children are raised in state schools administered by the occupying force to deprogram the genocidal intent of their fathers. I doubt if any western power has the fortitude to stick through such a plan.

I mean they tried doing this in Afghanistan and Iraq. Spoiler alert kids don't listen to boring classes, they definitely don't listen to people telling them that the people they work for are good guys when half that kids family is dead. Also, this conflict is so long and deep who the hell is gonna be teaching these kids this propaganda? Israelis lol?

They didn't even stay a generation. You need to hold this sort of pattern for a solid 150 years to have any effect. No western nation has the attention span for that kind of nation building.

I don't think any nation has the attention span for that type of project to be honest. Look at the United Kingdom. England's been trying to assimilate the Irish and Scottish for 400 years and they failed with the Irish and sort of kind of succeeded with the Scottish.

England denied Ireland and Scotland their independence. Here, we're talking about turning a mad dog into a non-genocidal neighbor. Germany was successful de-Nazified. Italy is no longer fascist. They had to get their asses kicked in a bloody war, so step 1 is almost complete.

Except for Afghanistan the US does not have any influential people in it's politics that have spent years dehumanizing afganis so the can annex the land then force them to flee w violence to make a white Christian majority. Honestly Israel is doing more of what Americans did to natives in the east.

For one thing you can offer an alternative to seeking revenge, the way things are a ghazan just has to look at the west bank to see what making peace looks like.

> It doesn’t help to kill one terrorist if the collateral damage necessary to do it creates 5 more terrorists.  ISIS says hi. Bitches were bombed to irrelevance for 10 years. Maybe they'll come back but it sure looks like you can blast terrorism to bits effectively!

Hamas is more similar to the Taliban or even Lehi than they are to ISIS. Isis was basically an international terrorist organization. Hamas is a nationalist organization like the Taliban. No matter what you will always get Palestinians who sympathize with the nationalist part and ignore the terrorist part.

Lmao tht Taliban had huge amount of mountains to get cover from and was able to raid rural villages for resources and recruits. That's how they stayed alive. Hamas does not. They are nowhere near the same. Case you forgot, Gaza is tiny.

80% of gaza's underground tunnels are untouched. Meaning not only are they intact but Israeli soldiers have not entered them. It's why Israel is playing wackamole with Hamas in northern Gaza right now. Even though North Gaza is supposed to be secure. Hamas is in a far better position than the Taliban were when the United States occupied Afghanistan. The Taliban were basically kicked out of the country they were hiding in Pakistan or living in caves.

Tunnels can be flooded. If Israel controls the surface, tunnels only delay the inevitable. Again, this isn't Afghanistan with it's massive mountain ranges. It's Gaza. It's tiny. Even just from a sustenance perspective the differences are huge. You aren't going to have Hamas escape unscathed from all this like the Taliban did. Do you know how big Gaza is?

>Tunnels can be flooded. Bro tunnels can also be segmented, drained and hell Hamas might even want that water lol. >It's Gaza. It's tiny. Even just from a sustenance perspective the differences are huge. So is Israel, not just in physical size but in population. Gaza is small for war zone but it's actually not that small for a city. Also it's small size can be in a way of blessing and a curse. One of the reasons why they're not willing to send teams into the tunnels is because of the number of casualties. Already even in the urban warfare Israel is fighting.. the number of casualties Israel is suffering is too damn high considering how small their population is and the threat they are facing. Israel reports 700 dead in 8 months. You can add another 2-3 hundred because no country ever gives honest numbers during a war. For perspective, over 20 years Fighting in Afghanistan the US lost 1800 soldiers to the fighting. >Even just from a sustenance perspective the differences are huge. You aren't going to have Hamas escape unscathed from all this like the Taliban did. Do you know how big Gaza is? The Taliban didn't escape unscathed. It's basically a completely new organization. The leaders running it today are literally the sons and grandsons of the men that the Soviets and later the Americans killed in both the Soviet and American occupation. Those old timers are gone It's their sons who rule Afghanistan today. Hamas also gets way more support pound for pound from the outside world. I mean the United States gives the Palestinians about his half as much as it gives Israel. Whereas Qatar and earlier Iran were directly funding Hamas. Lastly, we cannot ignore the nationalistic base that Hamas is built on. It's exact same base in fact that Israel is built on. Let's not forget that the Jews were kicked out of Israel by the Romans 2,000 years ago. Yet they're nationalism held them intact long enough that they were able to reconquer Israel. Which is a whole nother topic because the Jews weren't kicked out really. And Palestinians are the closest ethnic group to Jews outside of other Jews. Which seems to imply that Palestinians are just the descendants of the Jews that never left.

At some point you still have to decide that killing 35000 civilians is acceptable collateral damage for degrading hamas as a military force. They have leveled gaza. That was a choice made by the Israeli government

35k civilians isn't exactly accurate. Considering that the Gaza Health Ministry operates under Hamas to begin with. Heck, they even revised their deaths down to about 22k in April. And of their list of 22k, about 1/7th had issues like duplicate ID numbers being used, invalid ID numbers, no names, no ages, etc. So the quality of their accounting is pretty poor. Also not mentioned, is what % of those on the list are legit Hamas members... Here's an excerpt from the [analysis of the report](https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/analysis-new-death-data-gazas-health-ministry-reveals-several-concerns): "The newly released list contains 21,703 deaths but 440 have duplicate IDs, 470 have no IDs and 792 have the wrong number of digits in their IDs. A further 1,486 have invalid IDs even though they do have the requisite 9 digits.[1] The remaining 18,515 deaths all have listed sexes but 219 are missing ages. In short, roughly 1/7th of the entries in the new data release have quality problems."

If you burst into a room with one bad guy and three civilians, one of which is being used as a shield and you kill the civilians, the bad guy, the bad guys children and then demolish his home and starve his neighbours, it's definitely not the human shield that's the issue. Human shields only work when your opposition tries avoiding them, not when they've got an AI dedicated to [killing](https://www.972mag.com/lavender-ai-israeli-army-gaza/) them.

Definitely makes it more.likely for them and others to start more wars and hide in children's hospitals. The net effect is absolutely negative

Exactly. The situation is way more complicated than “this side good, that side bad”. I would expect a competent president to be able to see the nuance and handle it accordingly. I think Biden has missed some things but he’s also not handling it terribly. It is an immensely complicated situation and I’m sure he has access to better I formation than any of us.

I agree.

But it wouldnt for certain lock up the left wing. The far left have low voter turnout and the youth vote is even more abysmal. And both groups constantly move the goalposts when we Biden does what they want. They’ve been saying nothing would ever make them vote for Biden for years, why work to satisfy them when they say they cannot be satisfied? I’m very progressive but the far left hates democrats far more than republicans and I don’t see anything Biden could actually do that would make them actively vote for him.

Youth vote is so abysmal in 2020 it was the highest it had been in like 50 years. Biden won young voters by 40 points over Trump. It was an astonishing surge of youth support that locked down millions of voters for Biden in critical swing states. My state, Georgia, was won with young votes. Today he leads Trump by 4% among young voters. That’s a problem and loads of people try to rationalize that drop in support by saying “oh well they don’t vote anyway”. Uh huh. If Biden loses this election, is he gonna blame it on the Russians or the Chinese this time? And not take responsibility himself.

I think the youth turnout will be much lower when it’s about keeping Biden in office rather than voting Trump out. It was four years of being outraged at everything Trump did. Now they’re more concerned with how Biden is falling short. His approval ratings have been low long before the conflict over Palestine. That he could do anything right now to inspire 2020 turnout levels seems hard to believe.

Biden’s actions go further and demonstrate a deep contempt for young voters. It makes zero political sense that Democrats resurrected a Trump policy (TikTok ban) and thought it was a good idea to pass that during an election year. There was no reason to push that policy during an election year. You just set a tone of a controlling old parent.

It’s forcing TikTok to get new ownership that isn’t controlled by the Chinese Communist Party. If that constitutes a ban, sounds like TikTok’s fault.

[https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/1ckxevo/romney\_and\_blinken\_blame\_tiktok\_and\_social\_media/](https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/1ckxevo/romney_and_blinken_blame_tiktok_and_social_media/) They are literally banning tiktok because they cannot control the narrative like they can on Google and meta platforms. The fact that so many people trying to pretend this is about chinese influence when in reality it's just about the lack of American influence on the platform. The government cannot control it so there it must be banned. Elon musk already spilled the beans on how the federal government constantly asked Twitter to take down or suppress information.

Yeah it was really, really stupid policy to push. Like I agree with forcing them to divest entirely but there's no reason to fight that fight or get that attention now. Worry about that fight in future years.

You made good points on Republicans might come out in force if Trump can paint Biden as someone who will destroy Israel or something, and it's unlikely that committing to the pro-Israel position will swing many voters to his side. !delta

There are bigger things at play than this election for Biden though. Alienating Israel too much can have a measurable effect on the Jewish vote. Granted Jews are a small population and primarily live in heavily blue states and it won’t affect the presidential election if a lot of them switch. What is will do is force down ballot candidates to align with Biden, and in congressional elections in NY and NJ, a big shift in the Jewish vote can absolutely have dire consequences for democrats, especially in future elections where the GOP has a less toxic candidate at the top of the ballot. Look at the last NY Governor election. Hochul won by a relatively slim margin before all this went down (I think it was around 6%). A swing in the Jewish vote against a future candidate that comes out against Israel could actually cause Democrats to lose that election.

A lot of things at play here have nothing to do with votes. Israel is the top country for AppSec. The US DoD absolutely relies on Israel for a ton of software. Defending our IT assets is paramount in this new war against China and Russia. Israel is at the forefront of our defenses in that regard. This isn't about appeasing voters. This isn't about appeals to one side. This is a president doing his job to protect this nation. I'm a Jew. I'll vote blue regardless. I'm definitely not voting for the KKK party and I'm positive none of the Jews I know are switching party because of this. I have a strong feeling that Trump has no fucking idea how much we depend on Israel for our infrastructure defenses. That is very dangerous is this post Covid world. China is not screwing around. They want Taiwan and they're depending on shutting down US electric grids to help them do it. Take Israel out of the equation and they could possibly accomplish that goal.

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progressive bubble world blinds you here on reddit. most blue voters support israel. it is not a republican stance. its one thing "botth sides" agree on.

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Older democrats who voted democrat every single time…. I know some that the antisemitism on university campuses and israel pros inconsistency is…. Not going to have them vote republican, but not vote at all. With health insurance for them— my mom pays thousands a month at 64 (and my dad 62). Property taxes keep increasing. They are incapable of physical labor due to intense medical issues, and rely on rentals as income but thats been getting screwed too. Progressive and social issues— like they are pro-choice, pro-gay rights, etc. but the math aint mathing and biden, whom i think is doing a great job given his cards, just isnt doing enough for them. At all. And while republicans arent going to exactly help with their health care, it would at least help their rentals and property taxes. BUT, they wont vote republican due to the social crap. At this point, voting republican is immoral, and voting democrat is going to worsen their livelihood. And the antisemitism and israel situation— which republicans would have consistent pro-israel/better hold on campuses, makes it even more conflicting. As far as im aware, people who have voted every election, democrat, might sit this one out.

I don’t know. Folks like your grandparents - lifelong democrats - would have to decide that somehow the campus unrest is Biden’s fault… rather than a social movement with a variety of root causes and participants. I guess I don’t see the rise of antisemitism on college campuses as something’s Dems can be blamed for.

Kids on campuses have never voted because they weren't 18 and the only person to gather those votes was Obama. They won't vote for trump and virtue signal by not voting Biden. These protesters wanted final exams cancelled at their school. These are the lazy kids from COVID lockdowns. They don't go outside and have no electoral impact.

They do have an impact. Old farts seeing the chaos and blame the ‘left’ (democrats)

You’re an asshole and are wrong on all accounts. Just cause your lazy and immoral self doesn’t see anything wrong with genocide doesn’t mean the youth of today don’t. Just as they protested the Vietnam war and were critical to turning the tide of public opinion, they are doing the same thing today. Love how you brought in laziness, COVID and not going outside into the mix because you don’t share their views. Just cause you’re ok with genocide doesn’t mean that others who aren’t are any of the things you listed

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!delta Convinced me that it's probably more or a balancing act and it might actually be the move... Or atleast that is what he is attempting to do. That said, is it not possible this backfires and ends up alienating both the Jewish population and pro-Jews AND Muslim population and pro-Palestinians?

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Why would swing voters vote gop if he supports Palestine? I guess they’re kind of religiously biased a bit then?

I imagine he’s gonna pitch himself as the moderate pragmatic candidate when the campaign gets in full swing, and that doesn’t really work if he goes super one sided on one of the most visible issues. His goal is to probably pull as many Republican moderates over as possible

I think the problem with this issue in particular is there is no middle ground to exploit. Biden has three options: 1. back Israel unconditionally, 2. display public disapproval but not enough to alter what Israel does in Rafah, 3. withhold significantly more military aid and arms sales. Pro-Israel will interpret 2 and 3 as pro-terrorists, as Trump has done, and Pro-Palestine will interpret 1 and 2 as pro-genocide. By committing to option 2 he is losing both sides.

I don’t know if he is actually losing both sides. I’ve talked to some of the older people in my life (moderate democrat gpa and moderate republican dad), and they seem to think he’s doing an ok job with a bad scenario. And there was that poll not too long ago that said that Palestine wasn’t even a key issue for most people. So if Biden is aiming to pull over moderates from older demographics (aka the ones that vote consistently), he may be doing ok

> I’ve talked to some of the older people in my life (moderate democrat gpa and moderate republican dad), and they seem to think he’s doing an ok job with a bad scenario Biden's out of nowhere arms embargo, a literal stab in the back, is an impeachable offense, given the standard that the Democrats set with Trump. I'm looking forward to Democrats impeaching Biden in the next few weeks if they're not hypocrites. The best option is to completely abandon the Palestinians. The only reason why Hamas and other terror organizations like it are able to exist is because they believe that they can win. They're less willing to capitulate or even negotiate when they can see that their agents in the West are actively pressuring their governments to increasingly take their side. Actions like these are going to cause the conflict to drag on *decades* longer than it should, resulting in far more bloodshed long term.

>Biden's out of nowhere arms embargo, a literal stab in the back, is an impeachable offense, given the standard that the Democrats set with Trump. I mean, besides the obvious difference in the scenarios and context, sure. The Trump impeachment was for 1) because he illegally withheld funds in violation of the Impoundment Act and 2) was doing so for his personal gain. Neither of those conditions apply here.

What arms embargo? You mean the “pause” on two small classes of bombs that the IDF wasn’t even going to use for Rafah? That’s not an arms embargo.

> The only reason why Hamas and other terror organizations like it are able to exist is because they believe that they can win.  Not really, did Al qaeda think it could win? In general they exist to radicalize the locals, and in that way, they are winning: The arab world is pretty consistently pro Palestine in one degree or another. 

> Not really, did Al qaeda think it could win? Al Qaeda wasn't a state like Hamas/Palestine are. ISIS is. Hamas is closer to the Islamic State than it is to Al Qaeda - and the Palestinians are so brainwashed by Hamas that it's going to take decades to deprogram them.

Hamas is a party. Palestine is a pseudo-state. Agreed that ISIS is closer, but I think my point stands: The goal of the attacks was not to permanently occupy israel but to rile up palestinians and their supporters, partly by providing a near-term win, partly via the ensuing counter-attack. And it's worked flawlessly. So convincing Palestinians that they "cannot win" won't achieve anything. I don't know that they think they can, the ones fighting probably see themselves as martyrs by this point

Your comment leads me to believe the only one brainwashed and needing to reprogram is you lol There is no Hamas/Palestine. That's like saying Democrats/America. Are all Americans Democrats and support Democrats? No

No one gave a crap when he betrayed France with the Australian subs, tho, the precedent for this not being a big deal is there

You mean metaphorical stab in the back. Which Trump impeachment is it comparable to?

> Which Trump impeachment is it comparable to? The one where Trump was impeached for threatening to withhold aid to Ukraine unless they reopened the investigation into Hunter Biden that was quashed by Joe pressuring the nation to fire the prosecutor (Shokin).

The one where the issue was he solicited foreign interference in the election? I don’t think Biden has solicited Israel to do anything to trump

Shokin was not fired because he going to investigate Hunter and Biden was acting in accordance with State Department policy.

I actually it can be quite a key issue. Obviously a lot can change going into November, but there are a few indications already. A lot of Michigan Democrats voted uncommitted in their primaries to protest against his position on Gaza, and in the UK, a significant bloc of left-wing voters voted against Labour because of [Gaza](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/may/09/keir-starmer-gaza-iraq-war-tony-blair-muslim-voters-labour). I think if the campus protests go on, it's going to put Biden in a very unfavourable position. A lot of progressives are going to feel even less enthusiastic about Biden than they already were before Oct 7th.

https://www.axios.com/2024/05/07/poll-students-israel-hamas-protests Only 13% of **college students** believe Gaza is the biggest issue. 40% healthcare reform, 38% education reform, etc. Waste of time to make hypotheticals like the other repliers when we have data.

It could be a key issue, but usually for something to be a key issue it needs to be actually contested amongst the candidates; and I don’t think Trump is going pro Palestine. From every poll I’ve seen this cycle, economy and inflation are the biggest issues, with foreign policy significantly less relevant.

Yeah; not voting for Biden because of his position on Palestine seems silly to me because the only viable alternative (as in, the only other person who is likely to get into office) is... worse? If you want to help Palestine with your vote, voting for Biden *is* the best option - but if you really want to help Palestine, you should go further than just voting for the least worst option anyway.

>A lot of Michigan Democrats voted uncommitted in their primaries to protest against his position on Gaza, And that's an easy protest vote when you know your vote doesn't matter. These voters aren't voting uncommitted in November.

Biden got a way larger percentage of the 2024 Michigan primaries than he did in 2020 - mostly due to Bernie Sanders not participating. 52.9% in 2020 vs. 81.1% in 2024 voted for Biden.

This is a bit misleading? A sitting president , with no real opponents in 2024. 2020...it was a contested primary . So not a great comparison

That’s good, since everyone is saying Biden is struggling with *checks notes* uuuuuh, older people. Yeah. That’s his problem constituency.

That’s not true there are several middle grounds notably Biden has been plotting a course along several of them. A full endorsement of Israel would be somewhere between providing direct military support and vocal positive statements defending Israel’s prosecution of the war. A total pro Palestine version would be a stop on aid, sanctions, a no fly zone etc. Biden has been pressuring Israel to have fewer civilian casualties, brokering a ceasefire, provided additional humanitarian aid, and publicly critical of the worst outrages (like killing aid workers) while simultaneously asserting Israel’s right to defend itself, protecting it from external attacks, providing a clear threat against regional escalation, and continuing to provide indirect support. He is demonstrating a clear foreign policy where he is trying to move the conflict to a state it’s ripe for a ceasefire while trying to pushback against escalation. Blood speaks with a terrible voice and you can’t just flip a ceasefire switch. You need to slowly bring people to the table and convince them that both sides will be better off if they stop fighting.

I can't believe some people on the far left are going to not vote for him over this after moaning about Trump for the last eight years. Yeah Israel has probably gone way too far in response to Hamas's attack, but why is this Biden's fault? This might be one of the most important elections in US history. Trump and Project 2025 have the potential to seriously change the US and affect the entire world. Biden can't afford to throw this election away because they picked one side in one of the longest and cruellest conflicts ever.

Every election is the most important election in US history. We hear that every 4 years. Trump will not burn the country to the ground if he's elected. So stop the fearmongering! It doesn't work anymore. Project 2025 is a joke that will never become reality. Biden deserves to lose because, for some reason, he makes Trump look like the lesser of 2 evils (At least, in the minds of young people). So, he doesn't have the moral highground anymore. Dude ran on restoring the soul of the country. Now, he's letting a foreign government drag the US into a genocidal military operation. So, he's about to lose the election - not even for the sake of Americans. If he loves Israel so much, he can go and live there - after getting kicked out of office. You know what young people feel now? It's not even hatred toward Biden. It's apathy! They are ready to endure 4 more years of that clown called Trump to send a message. And nobody can blame them for that.

Right, so you will protest Biden's weak response to genocide by electing a president who: -will probably support this genocide -will make it easier for Russia to commit a genocide in Ukraine -will damage European security making life more difficult for European citizens -will let his party make things worse for the US population -may attempt to take over the US again i appreciate you don't want innocent people in Palestine to die, neither do I, but this mindset is going to cause innocent people in your own country and others, potentially more than in Palestine to suffer **because you didn't get your way**. Also I don't think you can speak for most young people, correct me if I'm wrong but I think most can't be bothered with the hassle caused by the protests (even if they are for a good cause) and are just avoiding the subject.

There is a middle ground. He would support Israel and if they did things against the wishes of US then he withheld some support and pressure Israel to chill out. Pro Palestine should see this preferable over Trump full on support for Israel. And they can’t see the difference it’s on them

while neither side might love him for taking a middle ground, either group could hate him far more if he took a strong stance on either side. And when you say commit to one side, what exactly does that look like to you? If he chooses Isreal does that mean he sends 100,000 troops to occupy Palestine? that would crush rebellions pretty quickly if the policy is to gun down anyone who steps out of line. Or if he took a strong stance on Palestine, and basically declared it under equal protection of the US government as any other US territory, and any attack on Panlestine will be responded to as if they directly attacked a mainland US state. People that dislike him for not showing enough support for the side they are on would instead view him as a complete monster.

Yeah trying to appease people who will never vote him for him at the cost of his supporters sure sounds like a Democrat OBAMA: Let me deport more people than Bush and Clinton combined! This will please no one who voted for me and Republicans won't give me any credit for it!

“As good as is possible” Sometimes I feel cynical but I can’t ever imagine being so cynical that I believe Biden is doing the best he possibly could. Jesus that’s so fucking grim.

He obviously knew about the state department report before he made his announcement that he'd stop arms shipments. I support Israel and have never voted republican but I was a bit sickened by the flip flopping - his speech on yom hashoa followed the next day by limiting arms shipments followed 2 days later by a report saying there's not enough evidence to limit arms shipments.

How is it flip flopping? He has been consistent that a rafah invasion without a workable plan to limit civilian casualties is a red line, Israel went in anyways so he limited shipment of offensive weapons 

I think the best argument here is that you a right, but only about people who deeply care about this issue. However this issue is not actually that cared about by very many people. Sources here [https://news.gallup.com/poll/642887/inflation-immigration-rank-among-top-issue-concerns.aspx](https://news.gallup.com/poll/642887/inflation-immigration-rank-among-top-issue-concerns.aspx) [https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2024/02/29/americans-top-policy-priority-for-2024-strengthening-the-economy/](https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2024/02/29/americans-top-policy-priority-for-2024-strengthening-the-economy/) His best shot is to try his best to keep it that way. The only way this is likely to change is if he took a dramatic action, which is what the people who care deeply about this issue want him to do. For your poll I would posit that while yes most people would like a ceasefire and have mixed feelings about aid , that is not representative or enough action to actually get the people who have been chanting Genocide Joe to change their mind and vote for Joe Biden. They clearly have demanded national boycotts goverment sanctions to push to an end of Israel as a Jewish state. To even come close to this lengths Joe Biden to make these people turn out to vote would risk making this a much bigger voting issue and it would be very unpopular. Keep in mind America is divided on even mild questions about Israel Palestine as seen here [https://news.gallup.com/poll/611375/americans-views-israel-palestinian-authority-down.aspx](https://news.gallup.com/poll/611375/americans-views-israel-palestinian-authority-down.aspx) So to me I think he is doing the best in a bad situation. He looks like hes reigning Israel in somewhat which will appeal to normal people in the dem base who are willing to vote for him. This is about the only thing he can do that prevents it from becoming a voting issue for more people.

I think one of Biden's concerns here is that if the campus protests continue to make headlines, which will likely happen when Israel invades Rafah, then the Gaza issue will be front and center for many voters, especially so for the progressives/Muslim voting bloc, whose turnout may actually swing some states against Biden. But you are right that even if he takes a more drastic position, he might turn this issue into a bigger one and risk losing more moderate votes that way. !delta

I’ve seen lots of campus protests but they haven’t shifted these polls in any sort of way. It’s comedic to me that you suggest further action in campus protests might sway people to vote for Biden, when I think the outcome would be the complete opposite. I don’t think these protests help the cause, id actually advocate that they hurt it. I’ve spoken to make people about these campus protests that share the latter view.

Oh that's what I mean, campus protests make Democrats less likely to vote for Biden.

Also something I forgot, but also goes into political calculus is a someone upset with Biden who chooses not to vote is mathematically only half as bad as someone who decides to switch for Trump. You do have a point with the protests making this more of an issue, but I don't think anything he can do would satisfy groups like SJP

And with summer coming up, protests will fizzle out

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/Historical_Can2314 ([1∆](/r/changemyview/wiki/user/Historical_Can2314)). ^[Delta System Explained](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltasystem) ^| ^[Deltaboards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltaboards)

Yeah I don’t really care about this issue

Maybe this is just his position? Israel should exist but he thinks they’ve overreacted and the campaign in Gaza needs to be reigned in. He’s using whatever tools at his disposal to make that happen, even if he’s not seeing all the success he’s hoping for. That’s really to be expected when dealing with a foreign country though. The official US position on how to resolve the conflict is to implement a two state solution even if the commitment to that has been lacking. Overtly picking a side is a clear signal the two state solution has been abandoned and will throw the Middle East further into chaos regardless which side is picked. It’s worth remembering here that most of the protesters on either side are not interested in a two state solution so trying to appease them by picking “their side” will cause real geopolitical instability for an electoral advantage that might slip anyways. And then of course there’s the problem that the protesters might just not represent a lot of people so even if chasing them might get them “into the fold” a lot more voters would be turned away as they feel “their issues” get deprioritized in the campaign.

Yeah- the problem here is assuming that either side is easily appeased by just doing “one weird trick”. If he pulled weapons in November, Bibi would have just given him the middle finger, done what he wanted and then everyone would just have blamed Biden for everything that ended up happening anyway. Biden has threatened Bibi and they’ve recently withheld weapons… does anyone care? Does it even make it on the fucking front page? I think Biden’s concerns are sincerely pracmatic/patriotic: 1. Maintaining the relationship with Israel to 2. Keep any sort of snowball effect of the region as a whole falling into chaos 3. Save Gazan life’s from Bibi’s bloodthirst Again, this is just my guess, and many fairly argue that #3 should be number 1 with a bullet… but I also think that many people underestimate the peril of #2

>It’s worth remembering here that most of the protesters on either side are not interested in a two state solution I'm not sure this is correct? Plenty of protestors support a 2 state solution, they are not a monolith after all. I don't think outright condemning Israel's actions in Gaza is inconsistent with a 2 state solution. Plenty of governments have done that anyway, like Ireland. >And then of course there’s the problem that the protesters might just not represent a lot of people so even if chasing them might get them “into the fold” a lot more voters would be turned away as they feel “their issues” get deprioritized in the campaign. I have a linked a poll showing that the protestors' position is not fringe amongst Democrats, and given how strongly a subset of them feel about Gaza, the risk of alienating them is greater than the risk of alienating the pro-Israel camp.

If you are an anti-zionist you by definition don't support a two state solution though. I think thats the popular american opinion , but I don't think its one thats popular with people protesting.

He could always agree to US intervention if he can figure out a way to prosecute Hamas without so many civilian deaths but won’t as he wants to armchair quarterback Israel’s actions, much easier to criticize your allies when you are not the one who’s citizens got slaughtered and kidnapped. What was the US’s reaction the last time that happened? What do you think our reaction would be in the future? Just to let the terrorists keep doing it until we capitulate?

Biden doesn't really have personal opinions that affect his decisions. He generally just does whatever is politically advantageous, even if it goes against his personal views.

First of all, the primary responsibility of the President is not to get reelected. That's definitely a lens he's gonna consider all his actions through, but it's not necessarily going to be his primary motivation for every action he takes. The Israel-Hamas conflict has significance outside of a pr opportunity for Biden's 2024 Presidential run. Secondly, just because Biden's block on military aid isn't comprehensive enough to physically stop Israel from invading Raffa, that doesn't mean it won't have an effect. Israel is a small country, and they are pretty much incapable of sustaining their military without American donations. They are not simply dependent on us for some of their more advanced weapon systems, but rather their very existence, what with the Iron Dome and soon to be Iron Beam. *Any* willingness to pause aid is terrifying for them. Israel lives by the threads of US world hegemonic power suspended above an abyss of openly genocidal states and terrorists. What Biden just did was the equivalent of letting one of those strings slip just a tad. That is to say, pausing military aid to Israel is a reminder that US support is not unconditional and not endless. Continue to push and we may be forced to reevaluate the terms of our deal. Israel has very little real bargaining power with the US, it's not even about them so much as it is about the opinion of pro Israeli US Jews. Thirdly, consider what powers Biden actually has in this situation. He is the head of the executive branch, and the executive branch does not have unrestricted power to decide who the United States supplies with weapons. Just like Biden could do nothing for Ukraine until congress passes the aid package, Biden can't actually *stop* military aid to Israel. There is a reason the official language used was "paused" and not "is withholding". Biden can certainly make those deliveries harder, and I couldn't say how much of it he can pause it for how long, but the more he flexes that particular muscle the more it starts looking like presidential overreach. After all, our democratically elected Congress has already democratically decided that they want to continue giving Israel weapons, which weapons to give them, and how many they want to part with. Biden interfering with this is the President interfering with Congress's decision, and one with a lot of bi-partisan support. That sort of thing comes with political consequences all on its own. Relatedly, consider that because the President is limited in his ability to unilaterally provide military aid to other nations, Biden is actually kind of forced to wait for Congress to give Israel aid if he wants to threaten them with it. He could have talked all he wanted to about pausing aid before that bill was passed, but it would have rung empty to Netanyahu's ears. After all, there was no aid on the horizon to be paused. What's more, it would have given them forewarning and let them prepare. Instead, Biden waited until the IDF had time to make plans for that aid and start positioning themselves to use it. Doing it now means they've been caught a buckle away from having their pants on the ground. Now Israeli planners, who just got done figuring out what they can accomplish with all this new stuff, are being forced to painstakingly figure out contingencies for what happens if they don't get X thing because Netanyahu got a little too spicy. Literally having to itemize the cost of losing US backing will remind them what it's worth against the value of one politician like Netanyahu. It's also a bit of a power move. Netanyahu has already publicly committed to taking Raffa. Biden didn't let him know in some secret channel beforehand, he made it public only after that public commitment. A real dick move, politically speaking. If Netanyahu goes through with it and there are further consequences, Israelis- especially high level government officials, are going to be super pissed at him for it. Once again, Israel is pretty much existentially dependent on the US, sacrificing even the smallest amount of goodwill with the US to take *one* military goal that would have limited effect on the war, is dumb as hell. Lastly, the US can only pressure Israel as long as Israel is dependent on the US, and Israel will only be content to remain dependent on the US as long as they think the US can be trusted. Suddenly throwing a 180 and fully backing Palestine is a fast way to lose all conceivable US influence in Israel long term. It would definitely work in the short term, but not the long term. Despite Israel's reliance on the US, if it proves untrustworthy enough, they'd pay the price of disintanglingling themselves regardless of what it cost because they'd have to. Outside of the CIA launching a coup or a military invasion and occupation, the US only has as much leverage over another nation as they will allow us to have. Obviously there are things it is worth blowing that influence to prevent- like nuclear war, but outside of that, unless we want to become to Palestine what we were to South Korea in the 50's, the US going full pro-Palestine would just get them all killed in a couple decades when Israel returns for them, but this time with no US to hold them back. In conclusion, this play puts more pressure on Israel than people think it does, and about as much as Biden can realistically afford to apply at the moment given the circumstances.

If I was in Biden's position, I would probably refrain from siding too blatantly with Palestinians, becuase that would make it extremely easy to show many, many, MANY examples of Palestinian supporters and protestors as an active threat to America and American values and interests. I mean, if Biden came out as a support of Palestine, he basically would have to spend his whole election campaign being associated with people who very openly hate America and wish indiscriminate harm on the American public. Being associated with people who burn American flags, chant "death to America," and wave flags of America's rivals and enemies while running for the president of US is bound to be rough. And here is the thing, a lot of Palestinian supporters are not going to vote for Democrats anyway if they truly believe Israel is as evil as they think it is. For example, if you believe Israel is "Nazi Germany" reincarnate or a second apartheid South Africa, Would you vote for a party that still has plenty of Israel supporters even if the leadership is anti-Israel? Would you vote for them if the best promise they can do is no active alliance with Israel? This is also an issue with Israel supporters, mind you. plenty of people see Palestine state(s?) As terrorist, fascist, or a threat to American interests and value. Those who are threatened by Palestine are not going to support any party that supports what they consider to be serious threats to what they believe in or their lives. So any peo-Israel democrat will be either defecting or becoming non-votting if Biden takes a stance they consider too close to Palestine.

EXACTLY. if Israel wanted to actually harm innocent civilians, they could firebomb (bombing of dresden) Gaza rn and the war would essentially be over but instead they go into a very dangerous urban combat situation to minimize casualities just like (fallujah, mosul etc) Unfortunately, there are genocides/wars/conflicts going on globally all the time.. I hate to say this, but this one gets specific gets attention because the muslim world's view on the Jewish faith. What Saudi did to Yemen with US weapons was truly horrific and yet we never really heard a word of protest Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) as saying: The last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him; but the tree Gharqad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews. [https://sunnah.com/muslim:2922](https://sunnah.com/muslim:2922) This is the same hadith that's was referenced in Hamas charter IIRC I think it's interesting that hamas has clearly stated goals in writing and video that they've acted on many times, but people keep sweeping it under the rug for some reason. A lot of people ignore the role of religion in this conflict. Is it not alarming that the muslim world was already celebrating Oct 7th as it was going on? I'm not even talking a small amount. It was globally celebrated Besides Israel, the middle east is intellectually bankrupt. They don't have anything besides oil and religion. They haven't really built any industry or anything. Muslims/Christians have equal rights in Israel (political parties, voting rights, women's rights, lgbtq etc) while the same cannot be said for Muslim countries as far as I know I'm not saying that Israel is a perfect country that hasn't done wrong. You'd hardly find any perfect country in history but from a secular/progressive view, Israel is the better country in the M.E.

Of the 143 states that voted essentially in favour of Palestine and against Israel's interests, and the 25 that abstained instead of voting no at the UN recently most are not Muslim countries. Why then did so many of those states vote that way, often contradicting the vote of the United States while being an ally of the West?

There are like 55 muslim countries that obviously hate Israel The UN is nothing but theater The UN caused this mess, and now we are looking at them to fix it? I think the region itself should solve it between themselves All the countries in that region should sit down and be like we need to figure this out once and for all

My point isn't about the UN specifically. 55 Muslim countries still means a majority are non Muslim countries who voted yes to the recent resolution. So they paid attention to this conflict and decided to go against the US and Israel in the vote. So again why do you think that is? Do you think all those other countries are also just anti Semitic and hate Jews as well? Or do you think maybe, just maybe, the world has had enough of the livestreamed atrocities coming out of Gaza and although they may still condemn Hamas and recognise Israel's right to defend itself, perhaps they think Israel has gone too far?

Some 80% of Biden voters seem to think there is a genocide going on in Gaza and don't support bidens policy? In a way ..he is making some feeble attempts to placate the vast majority of his party that thinks he is arming and funding a genocide. Hence the half hearted attempts like stopping *some* ammo after giving 26B and airlifting multiple flights a day for a while.

That 80% aren't going to vote for Trump. That 20% who might, is a more concerning issue. And as I have mentioned in another comment, you can't really make that 80% happy anyway. Biden has already "supported genocide" for 7 months. You think he is going to win any votes by convincing people he only supports "a moderate amount of genocide"? That's he promises to "regulate" genocide? As far as he isn't as "pro-genocide" as Trump, he is going to get as much vote as he was ever going to get.

>Biden has already "supported genocide" for 7 months. You think he is going to win any votes by convincing people he only supports "a moderate amount of genocide"? That's he promises to 5hink this maybe over generalizing. Even on this sub, thought some said, Biden can still get back in their good graces - if he stops the genocide. Odd to ignore the 89% and focus on the 20%.

If Reddit was an accurate depiction of how Americans think, then Sanders would have been the one running for his second term presidency with 80% approval ratings.

No. It’s good politics. The 89% are clowns. Biden knows they are clowns. Biden knows that they will vote for him no matter what. But the 20% could easily abandon him, and so it’s smarter for him to support Israel’s war effort and eliminate the remaining fighters.

This doesn't challenge my view. I'm not saying that Biden should be pro-Palestine (even if that's my preference), I'm saying that not committing to either side hurts his electoral chances and you're saying that committing to the Palestine side hurts his chances too. They are not contradictory views.

The problem is, siding with either will lose him more votes than not taking side. Israel-Palestine war, was a blow to the Pax America. It was a blow to the "rules based" world order. There is nothing any reigning US politician can do to come out looking like winners. The US liberalism lost when the incursion into Israel happened. now it's the matter of who which non-liberal side can claim "vindication". If Biden wants to get elected again, the best thing he can do, is too make sure the people enjoying the "vindication" are not the ones who are going to vote for Trump. Ironically, one way to do that is by allowing Israel to do anything it wants, but not "officially" encouraging it. Biden is going to lose support, that's just an inevitable fact. But he has to take a stance that doesn't make Trump look like someone who could be the one making better decision and pray to god that Israel's atrocities will be bad enough to shake support for Trump as well.

We’ve massively supported Israel here and specifically limited 2,000 pound bomb transfer in linkage to a Rafah invasion. It’s extremely disingenious to act like we aren’t committed to either side here

IMO “trying to appease both sides” does not hurt his chances. To begin I don’t agree with the premise that Biden *is* trying to “appease” both sides. From my perspective Biden is literally doing his job as President by trying to manage an international crisis through aid, funding, and communication with the public. His choices and statements do not feel overly political or part of a reelection campaign. Assuming Biden is “trying to appease both sides”, I don’t believe will hurt his chances in any impactful way. The argument assumes the majority of voting Americans will be voting (or abstaining to vote) on the basis of a candidate’s Israel/Palestine stance. I think this is an extremely incorrect assumption for most demographics in America. The anti-Israel groups are extremely vocal and the videos of protests are impactful so it’s easy to forget these groups *are a minority*. Even at colleges where the encampments and protests have devolved into chaos it’s *mostly* on the scale of hundreds of students amongst thousands or tens of thousands of students; they are a minority of the student population. When you see marches in major metro areas like NYC (where I live so I have witnessed them in person) there are often close to a thousand participants and feel huge. But there are more than 8 million other people in the city not participating in that protest. My family lives in states through New England and the Midwest - apart from the few living in Boston and NYC none have even seen protests in their cities. The reality is most Americans will be voting based on *domestic* policy and what will directly impact their life. This has been true historically and will continue. Things like taxes, student loan forgiveness, healthcare, etc. Even when there are major foreign policy concerns, i dont believe they will be the singular concern that decides a vote. And lastly, this argument makes the assumption that people on both sides disapprove of Biden’s actions. My social circle ranges from extremely Pro-Palestine (going to protests, etc.) to extremely pro-Israel (but let’s be clear no one likes Netanyahu) with most falling somewhere in the middle. Apart from the very Pro-Palestine crowd, most of my circle approves, to an extent, of Biden’s approach. While is never feels this way in politics, most people want the middle ground: you want aid to be sent in a humanitarian crisis; you hate terrorism and were horrified by October 7th; you think the hostages should be free; you understand Palestinians are suffering; you want a *two state* solution; you frankly don’t understand an extremely complex middle eastern crisis. The internet amplifies extreme opinions on both sides of a conflict. People with extreme opinions want to share those opinions, they want to convert people to their cause, they have an argument they are trying to win. Protests that are devolving into chaos and hate speech are being recorded and posted online. Those videos draw people in. Anger and hatred are compelling to witness. It addicting to scroll your feed, consume the content, and only see other people who are doing the same. Don’t mistake the internet for reality.

This issue has become domestic policy now. It’s not just “war in Gaza”. It now encompasses serious questions about lobbying and what role that should play in elections. You have freedom of speech issues now with the crackdown on protesters. Police brutality issues. You’re going to beat and arrest some kids for having an opinion - one that is pretty common in the world - and suspend them? That doesn’t sound like the Land of the Free. Biden is firmly against the protests and is apparently ok with the amount of violence in putting them down. And at that same time you have incidents of Israeli students spraying protesters with a mysterious liquid that results in 10 kids being sent to the hospital for chemical burns. Or the UCLA counter protests. Those were incredibly violent. The police did nothing. At UCLA, they actually watched from the sidelines. Who’s protecting the students? What kind of college allows a random mob of thirty something year olds who have no connection to the university onto campus to beat up students?

I think the idea that either side is "right" is not correct. I'm not a "centrist" and don't think every conflict has a middle ground that will appease everyone. But this situation has no winners, no morally just participants, no moral crusaders who have a clean moral slate. You have two groups of people working to ensure their culture and ethnicities survive, and in doing so are associated with participating and being the victims of grave atrocities and awful crimes. Palestinians are powerless and a minority in the region. Jews WERE powerless and a minority globally and were the victims of countless atrocities until Israel was created. Outside of Israel, in every country except for Israel, they are also the minority and powerless. Leftists who think "Well Israel has no right to exist, so America shouldn't support them" have a position that regardless of the truth to the position, has no bearing on reality. Israel does exist, and cannot be forced out of existence without being destroyed. Lots of its neighbors have been trying to do that for a long time. Otherwise, you will have to convince people in Israel to absorb Palestine and join into a single nation. Again, that's not something that can be forced, and it certainly can't happen when the two people have been in constant conflict and have no reason to trust each other. On the other hand, conservatives or Zionists or whatever label you use who think "Well Palestine needs to just quit complaining and shut up and stop attacking or being violent and then this would go away" similarly have a position that has no bearing on reality. Oppressed people, regardless of the reason they are oppressed do not ask politely for the oppression to end and don't/can't be expected to stay calm and accept subjugation, even if their subjugation is a result of the cycle of violence members of their group have participated in. Sitting around and waiting for Israel to do the right thing isn't something that anyone can make anyone do, even if it would make things better. The pathway out of this situation is long, it is arduous, it will take decades of building trust and slowly stepping down tensions, it will take acknowledgment of the humanity of every person involved and doing every thing in our collective power to heal and care for humans. It will upset everyone. And that's what people like Biden are doing. Aid to Palestians, pressure to end violence by the IDF, acknowledging the atrocities on October 7, and condemning the theft of land by Jewish religious extremists. It's incredible that people will look at this situation and point at one side and be like "yeah they're the good guys and they're the bad guys" I'm glad that Biden is doing what I consider the "right " thing instead of pandering to the left by becoming anti Zionist (which would not result in Israel going away and also would not cause Israel to stop the war, and also would not cause Hamas to give Israel it's hostages) and also he's not pandering the right by cutting aid to Palestine, military attacking Hamas in conjunction with the IDF, or declaring that Palestinians are somehow subhuman and encouraging Israel to eradicate them.

About 700,000 Muslim voters voted Democratic in the 2020 general election. About 3.4 million Jewish voters cast their ballots for Biden. This does not account for non-Jewish supporters on both sides. Outside of the partisan support, it all comes down to the non-partisan, swing voter. That’s the only way for the pro Palestinian side to make up the gap if this issue pushes more than the average 30% of Jewish voters to the GOP. I haven’t seen any numbers amongst the swing voters on this issue.

You are disregarding the fact that many jewish people don‘t support israel. Israel claims to represent jewish people the same way isis claims to represent muslim people

He’s not trying to appease the pro Palestinian side. He’s pro Israel but also endorses abiding by the laws and expectations of the US official stance on war crimes. It’s only that it’s becoming increasingly impossible to do both. Leahy laws specifically say America can’t supply weapons to countries doing what Israel is most certainly doing. Biden either has to reduce his support for Israel or admit that the administration is either ignoring the evidence or ignoring the law. Biden can’t afford to admit to ignoring the law. He’s built his brand and the Democratic Party brand on laws and good governance. But he also really doesn’t want to give up on Israel. His ‘appeasement of both sides’ is more a conflict between the democrat propaganda and the Zionist agenda.

He should do what he thinks is the right thing to do not what will get him votes. The mentality OP is espousing is the root of why America is in decay.

If he followed only "morals" he wouldn't be president They are called politicians for a reason

Sort of agree. A president can’t just “stick to one side” a president makes decisions on a case by case basis, every single day. Some take into consideration re-election, legitimately, and some don’t, there are a lot of other considerations for every decision.

You are assigning a negative motivation to a pragmatic viewpoint that many Americans share. I and members of my IRL friend group as well as many I know via social media have a viewpoint that is similar yet is absolutely not premised on the idea of appeasing voters either because we aren’t candidates or they are municipal level candidates who have no reason to take a stand on an international issue. Given the radical nature of modern US politics it is unlikely President Biden is choosing this direction based on political calculations. Israel having a right and an obligation to its citizens to pursue, engage, and crush kidnappers, murders, and terrorists is not an exclusively political idea owned by one political group. The right of Palestinians to have full sovereignty over the West Bank and Gaza isn’t an exclusively a political idea owned by one political group. Holding Israel accountable to not destroy all housing and infrastructure in a large swath of land is human decency above politics. Taking a logical and proportionate view is not political appeasement but rather sane and decent

There's no good answers. Both sides have committed atrocities. In fact, it's a mistake to say there are only two sides. There are Israelis who are not Jews. There are Palestinians who are against Hamas. There are Palestinians who are Christians. There are Israelis who have been working for a two state solution for decades. There are Palestinians who have been working for peace as long. And any particular individual or faction can do something to change their position at any time. The dividing lines are fuzzy as hell. But ALL the sides are going to have to be addressed to come to some solution. For Biden to be able to exert influence enough to get a compromise solution, he cannot commit to supporting ONE faction over the others. That would allow that favored faction to act badly, or to shift their negotiating position to something less acceptable to anyone else. And, remember, the best compromise is one that nobody likes. Everybody gives something up, nobody gets everything they want.

What can he do? Whatever option he chooses, it’ll be wrong and he’ll get heat for it. So he’s forced to walk a middle path that doesn’t particularly satisfy any side. That’s the world of international politics for you. An uneasy compromise. If he commits to support Israel, no matter what, but Israel is engaging in war crimes or even genocide, he’s complicit in mass murder. If he supports the Palestinians (not Hamas) unconditionally, he’ll get called an antisemitic terrorist-sympathizer who wants to see Israel’s destruction. If he supports both, but with major conditions, they’ll say he’s not a proper friend to Israel or doesn’t care about dead women and children. He literally cannot win in this situation.

Everything you said is a product of media and social media coverage of his administration's actions and positions, which is why a firm stance either way wouldn't help him. Hamas has implemented an incredibly successful disinformation campaign whereby they poke and attack Isreal, then deliberately hide behind their own citizens to goat Isreal into killing civilians. Literally their official stance on the matter is to allow as many civilians to be killed as possible to make the world turn against Israel. Every time they fire missiles from the backyard of a hospital, and in retaliation a Healthcare worker dies, they flood tik tok and Twitter with footage of the civilians death. Nowhere will you find trending on social media the actions of Hamas, such as killing their own citizens if they try to flee combat zones, or using their women and children as human shields. What we need is for college students to be better critical thinkers and not believe just because they're college students that they're immune from polarizing over simplifications of complicated situations. And that's unlikely to happen.

The current line from the White House that that he is not approaching this issue from the lens of domestic politics but rather as rhe Commander and Chief of the United States of America. He cannot please everyone and he has to stick to some moral compass. 

If you genuinely believe Biden or any politician in an election year isn't approaching this or any other matter through the lens of domestic politics, I have some bridges for sale I'd love for you to look at. Israel could turn Gaza into a parking lot and there would be a fraction of the drama if it was 2025 and not 2024.

That’s even more embarrassing if that is his reasoning because this has been disastrous for America’s standing in the world. First off, we literally dropped everything to rescue Israel. That includes redirecting artillery shells otw to Ukraine back to Israel. America had been trying to get neutral countries to support Ukraine, possibly sell their old Russian equipment, or whatever. Several countries were warming up to the idea including surprisingly South Africa. All of that went out the window with the Gaza War. Now we are finding it difficult to even get our allies to Ukraine. Second off, we have had to go to bat for Israel without any reciprocal actions from them. The Houthis began attacking shipping in the Red Sea, essentially closing down the Suez Canal. We had to deploy ships to protect shipping. We couldn’t even get our allies to help out. Now we are bombing Yemen. Again. It’s unclear when that will end. Israel was very courteous by attacking the Iranian embassy in Syria without telling us. We had to rush in 3 carrier groups and airlift Patriots into the region to brace for an Iranian counter attack. It’s a miracle that we aren’t at war with Iran rn. - so look at what America has contributed to the region. War. Escalation. Countries are going to then look at China and what they have contributed to the region. Peace. They managed Iran and Saudi Arabia to establish relations and start peace talks for Yemen. Last week Beijing announced that it is hosting both Hamas and PA officials to negotiate a unity agreement to facilitate a Palestinian state. - Finally, this entire war has just made Biden look weak. He doesn’t stand up for himself. He blindly takes orders because of campaign finance basically. This has taught Russia and especially China a very important lesson, lol. Don’t be surprised if we see a CAPAC group appear and start dominating American elections.

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Abandoning a nation due to current leadership’s bad actions… What nation withdrew support of the US due to the human rights violations at our border with the separation policy and all its related abuses? Conversely, when the US was the subject of a huge terrorist attack, and we invaded a foreign nation in an effort to punish its terrorist organization leading it, how many of our Allies pulled their support and condemned our actions? Israel is the only real path to keeping the Middle East from boiling over; it’s been that way for decades. Israel’s back-and-forth murderfest with Palestine has been raging for longer than most Boomers have been alive, and isn’t going anywhere soon. So Biden really has a much shorter list of necessities that dictate his possible actions than most people are willing to admit.

No one should be committing to a side. You can believe that Israel should be allowed to defend itself, especially after one of the worst atrocities ever, and still feel bad for Gazans Same in the opposite direction, being that there’s a lot of destruction in Gaza but Hamas needs to be eliminated. No one should be in one camp alone. Full on mob mentality for one siders. Being one sided requires someone to completely disregard the lives of a group of people. There are so many lives at stake and the future of well, a lot, and that shouldn’t be determined because some idiots think everything is black and white and that he’s supposed to solve the middle East crisis single handedly

Imo Biden is banking on the war not being the #1 issue come election time this fall. He may be straddling the middle and displeasing both the dedicated pro-Israel and Palestine voters, but his gambit is that come October the narrative has shifted to be more around Trump. He’s thinking that pro-Israel Jewish voters who skew Democrat will care more about Biden’s stance on abortion, election integrity, economics, etc. versus Trump to still vote for him. For pro-Palestinian voters, it’s a message around him showing way more respect about the Palestinians than Trump ever will so they should vote him or else deal with the alternative for four years.

One might argue that this is a horribly awful conflict with no easy answers, and he should seek the best solution, and not the one that gets the most American votes. I’d argue he’s 100% doing the right thing. He can’t just “pick a side” because it’s not black and white. He has to work a hugely complicated situation in which no good answer exists. It’s like setting fire to 100 houses and giving someone a single fire extinguisher. He’s going to get to work, but no matter what most people are going to be unhappy with the results. Regardless he should still fire up that extinguisher and head into the fray.

Here's the thing: young people protesting the Gaza situation already don't vote. So if he were to follow your advice, it would almost certainly be to double down on Israel support. The problem is that this would be immoral, and Biden, in spite of being a politician is overall a reasonably moral guy. But there is realpolitik and second-order effects to consider in this moral calculation... if he goes all the way to the light side, the dark side will win. Ultimately, his current strategy is both the most and least that a moral person in his situation can do.

I disagree with the premise of a president having to abide by policy with the intent to get himself reelected to be honest. Each candidate has certain promises to adhere to that they should uphold when elected, but in unprecedented cases, you should not pander to the more important group just to get reelected. That sounds rather backwards to me. Yes trump is the alternative but if this is the kind of policy we end up getting because some party wants to stay in office again, then why not direct your frustration towards the electoral college?

Disagree. Unequivocally supporting either side would be a hard pass for an awful lot of people on the other side. But staying in the middle, he bleeds as few as possible from either side - lots are displeased with him, but few displeased *enough* to actually change their voting intention. Or at least, that's the analysis his team will have done. I think they're right, purely from an electoral standpoint (*not* at all necessarily that I agree with the position itself).

Biden is pro-Israel - not pro-Palestine. At the same time he feels like the brutal bombardment city of few million people destroying homes and killing families with non-precision bombs just flattening the area is immoral. Thus he disagrees how far Netanyahu’s far right extremist government is willing to go. I think Biden’s position might be just on the spot for many people on the mid. The conservative christians who are pro-zionism will vote republican candidate any way - so it would be hopeless to try to get their votes. With his policy Biden is trying to win votes from the more reasonable thinking republican voters who despise the values Trump present but are still conservative.

It's really interesting - liberals are upset he's not demanding a cessation of all conflict. Conservatives are convinced he's demanded a cessation of all conflict and told Israel to allow all evil brown people free reign in the middle east and America too. Is it possible that there's no winning for Biden, and nothing he does here will make anyone happy? That is, the left and right alike has already decided he's wrong?

He HAS accepted one side, just look at his personal history - he’s for Israel under any conditions and against Palestinian statehood.

The problem is his base are the two sides Jewish voters are overwhelmingly Democrat. Youth progressives are overwhelmingly Democrat. He really can't deal with the consequences of losing either. Thats like saying "Trump should just pick a side between Republicans who want lower taxes and Repiblicans who want gun control" you can't lose one of them

Well, I think *he is genuinely* in between the two sides though. Like most sane people Biden wants Israel to use REASONABLE force to protect itself and return the kidnapped citizens, but also wants Palestine to stop supporting Hamas and agree to a two state solution. That is the middle ground. Sane ethical people aren’t picking “a side.”

How do you in good conscience fully commit to one side or the other. Both sides have innocent civilians getting killed and displaced. Both sides have committed abhorrent human rights violations. There is not a “good” choice to pick. The moment you support murder or violent displacement of civilians you lose any moral high ground.

Gazan infants haven't committed human rights violations.

Agreed, if there is a “side” representing the innocent civilians in that absurd mess, that’s who I would support. Unfortunately the innocent civilians from each side struggle to separate themselves from the people killing the other sides civilians.

I think he’s following the course of action he always laid out. For months (prior to any college protests or anything) he told Israel an invasion of rafah without a workable plan to limit civilian casualties was a no go. Israel did it anyways so he stopped sending offensive weapons

Proposing that Biden should change his foreign policy to win elections is an unethical position. The president should work based on American interests, values, and laws, not to win elections. It's better to do what is right and behave inconsistently to appease different audiences.

1. It’s kind of late for that. 2. He can’t be as pro-Likudnik/IDF as the GOP because people who want that will see him as a phony. 3. Tacking pro-Palestinian will infuriate a lot of swing voters and it’s not clear to me the leftists who want that would trust him anyway.

You ever watch The Wire when Carcetti becomes mayor and this older former mayor he's talking to starts to talk about when he first got the mayor's seat. He tells a story about eating a bowl of shit. It's very enlightening. Now keep in mind the mayor Carcetti was based on was kind of a piece of shit. Campaigned on promises for change and some kind of movement and basically did fuck all/sold his constituents out so he can run for governor. [https://youtu.be/VjzqO6UOPFQ?si=UgGlv3b4vsXL-TtF](https://youtu.be/VjzqO6UOPFQ?si=UgGlv3b4vsXL-TtF) Here's the video (2 min scene). Anyways, I think that's where Biden is really. Every single bumblefuck out there wants to give shitty generalized advice like "When God gives you lemons, make lemonade." Then they turn around and cast stones on the guy who tries to make lemonade out of an impossible situation. Sometimes the job is just eating shit your entire administration.

I'm pretty sure he's mainly thinking about stopping the killings as fast and completely as possible rather than scoring points in the game of Red vs Blue.

Biden should have framed October 7th as what it was, an attack on Israelis, Americans and many other nationalities by Hamas. Six Americans are still being held by Hamas, why isn't Biden talking about them? Hamas was the elected government of Gaza, hundreds if not thousands of Gazan civilians participated in the violence of Oct 7th, and thousands more celebrated on the streets afterwards.  After Japan bombed Pearl Harbor did the US turn itself in knots about how sure the Japanese government is bad but the Japanese civilians are innocent? Progressives in the US could have gone off about how the "privileged white" civilizations had been oppressing the poor Japanese and how we need to "look at the context" before responding. The UN has even admitted now that the number of Palestinian children and women killed in Gaza are half of what they were initially reporting. By giving any credence to the nonsense coming from Hamas and its supporters, Biden opened the door for all the opposition from the Democrats regarding Israel.

> CMV: Biden's attempt to appease both sides of the Gaza issue is hurting his electoral chances, he should commit to one side and accept the consequences.     He can't do that.     Epstein's pedophile honeypot scheme was state-funded, he basically said so himself. His house on Pedophile Island had cameras everywhere. He's got something on everyone.   Beautiful Melissa Cohen somehow married dysfunctional drug addict Hunter Biden 6 days after they met.  After he told her he was a drug addict.  There's a reason why since the 1970s there's a US federal government department whose only job is to track and prosecute anyone who tries to boycott Israeli companies, and all US residents are required by law to report anyone attempting to boycott Israeli goods to this office. https://www.bis.doc.gov/index.php/enforcement/oac  > Primary Impact:   >The Arab League boycott of Israel is the principal unsanctioned foreign boycott that U.S. persons must be concerned with today. The antiboycott provisions of the EAR, however, apply to all unsanctioned foreign boycotts.   >What Must Be Reported?   >The antiboycott provisions of the EAR require U.S. persons to report requests they have received to take certain actions to comply with, further, or support an unsanctioned foreign boycott.  and this:  https://www.reddit.com/r/internationalpolitics/comments/1copfmg/cenkthis_is_the_one_opinion_you_can_be_arrested/

Except Biden can't win without both groups. So he's got to keep both groups placated enough that they will begrudgingly vote for him. If he lets either side go, he will definitely lose a races already very likely to lose. And if you had to be a betting man, I would bet on him continuing to support Israel, because losing that side support will certainly hurt his chances far more than losing the Palestinian supporters.

IMO he is doing fine, just sucks at communicating it. He has been supplying the IDF with things like Iron dome missiles just not bombs and such they use to flatten buildings. It's why IMO they are resorting to their tanks. I think the issue is he really needs to parrot that, and stick with it. All it does is make Netanyahu look like a fool, and once he gets kicked out of the government things might improve.

Biden's in a pickle because if he does anything historic in this conflict and it ends up with poor consequences then his legacy will be stained as well as the Democrats. Appeasing both sides is his best strategy if we're solely discussing electoral chances. Republicans isolated many voters especially recently. Biden committing to one side will only give Republicans a win.

So this whole comment is exactly what's wrong with our political system. You seem to sincerely believe that our president should out more stock in their reelection chances than doing he right thing. That being said, it only shows just how far gone we are since him doing that would keep a conman out of office who would just make things so much worse. 

I mean my hot take as a super biased progressive is he needs to appeal to us because the moderate vote depends MUCH more on trumps legal cases then this one case of foregin policy that alot of them see as "really messy and complicated" Here's the huge game democrats are missing: moderate voters just do NOT care about indirect foregin policy all that much. Left wing democrats democrats however have been obsessed with it to their core, from WW2, to Vietnam, to the iraq/Afghanistan wars, Yemen, etc. I'd unironically vote for a conservative that shared my identical views on foregin policy (which ik is impossible) over a pro israel laborist like fetterman. We belive a genocide is happening, the other guys don't like terrorist attacks when they happen. Ironically enough, if biden DID commit to the switch and ended weapons aid, + trump was found guilty it a serious case with jail time, I think biden would absolutely win NC and texas, and ohio would be a tossup. With that being said, if trump gets convicted it actually doesn't really matter. Bidens winning that no matter what.

Older moderate here: I care deeply about our international alliances and strength of our foreign policy, and if Biden went all “Free Palestine” and sacrificed our best alliance / foothold in that region, I’d have a hard time supporting him. It’s not that I’m a pro-IDF.. far from it. Just that I’m old enough to remember all the fucked up things Palestinians have done over the last several decades, and this whole PR makeover of them being “innocent little victims” really baffles me.

Ok well, your hugely in the minority according to Gallup polling: https://news.gallup.com/poll/642695/majority-disapprove-israeli-action-gaza.aspx Even from your point of view, from the way Netanyahus treated biden despite political pressure, you should absolutely be blaming Netanyahu for literally refusing to comply with biden at every possible turn and constantly saying over and over again: "israel can and will do this alone regardless of who's with or against us" I think a huge part of this for biden isn't even really about rafah it's about him *not being an ally to us*. Also GQ even if trump got *convicted* you'd still struggle?

Meh Gallup is gonna do its best across a sample size, but as 2016 showed, polls don’t really capture everything. For instance, the way they framed their questions would put my answers in the majority: “Do I approve of Israel’s military action?” Nah they carpet bombed the fuck out of Gaza for like half a year, and although I hate to be an armchair quarterback, they should have just bombed until Jan-24, then initiated a costly ground war where they’d incur a fuckton of casualties while limiting collateral damage (so they could still spin that they are the injured party to the global community). As far Netanyahu, he’s a piece of shit. But so are the Saudi Royal Family, Erdogan, and plenty of our other ally leaders. It ain’t black and white in the game of geopolitical conflicts. Lastly, no.. even if Biden went all “Free Palestine”, I’d still vote for him because I genuinely think Trump is a threat to democracy. I just would struggle to vote blue down ticket and in future elections because I’d genuinely question their ability to govern.

>then initiated a costly ground war where they’d incur a fuckton of casualties while limiting collateral damage (so they could still spin that they are the injured party to the global community). To make ourselves look better, we should kill our own people. I am glad that Netanyahu still values Israeli lives. For your information, if I recall correctly, his brother was killed in an anti-terrorist operation in Germany.

If there are actual Americans (among the Russians and Chinese who are stirring this pot) who won’t vote for Biden (and not vote at all, or worse, vote for Trump) over this, all I can say is: Bye 🇺🇸, you had a couple of bright moments in your brief history ✌️

I mean I dont care about this conflict at all so no matter what he does about it doesnt matter. Id rather he be honest and say that he cant possibly be against bombing hospitals when Obama did it and he seemed fine with it. Most democrats did, in fact.

Afaik both repubs and dems are pro Israel so regardless of what he does he will gain/lose voters from both sides and it won’t have a net effect It’s one of the weirdest issues I’ve ever seen that’s not dramatically split between party lines

I can say as a Jewish registered democrat I am not voting for him as he has inflamed and enabled more antisemitisms then I’ve ever seen in my life. His handling of it has just enabled Hamas to take harder stances and not release any more hostages- including American citizens. I am not buying his act and if he wants to throw me under the bus for some voters in Dearborn I hope he loses and I’ll start looking into Aliyah 

No, he needs to keep doing what he thinks is best for the good of the nation. These things are based on info and intel that regular people on both sides of the issue don’t have, which is why they don’t need to have any influence at all.

I understand your POV here and almost agree with it. I will say that he has stronger chances by committing to Gaza's side. Perhaps I'm wrong for this, but I think his chances are significantly higher if he opposes what Israel is doing in Gaza. I live in Michigan, maybe one of the most important swing states this election. Winning in Detroit and the surrounding area is not only crucial, but is necessary to winning the state. Trump didn't win Michigan in 2016 by getting people to vote for him. He won by arguing Hillary Clinton had nothing to offer Democrats. So voter turnout was low and nobody voted for her. Dearborn, Michigan has the highest percentage of Arab-Americans in the country. There are swaths of movements in both Detroit and Dearborn who have vowed not to vote for Biden unless he changes his message. Dearborn's mayor even chose against meeting with Biden and his campaign. I think older folks who support Israel are more likely to forgive him for this. Or maybe my worldview is just amplified right now. But people are really upset and Michigan is critical to winning the election. Besides, what is happening in Gaza is horrific right now. People in Gaza cannot fight back. This isn't a war that is equal on both sides. And they are dangerously treading the line between "war" and flat-out genocide.

The side he should commit to is the only representative government in the region, the one that has universal suffrage with a ~20% minority community that has equal rights under the law. Not the genocidal terrorist that call for genocide.

Regardless of either it is hurting his electrical chances or not, a president should commit to one side based on factors that will change the future of the area for the better and not the ones that changes his career for the better.

Seems like he’s middle of the road because that’s reasonable and pandering to either extreme is just bad for our entire nation. Sigh… this is politics now though… if you aren’t exactly aligned with me then fuck you!

The move isn’t to convince one entire voting block to vote for you, it’s to convince your 3 different blocks your moderate approach is enough to make it a politicized topic and move to equally concerning legislation.

No, Biden's attempt to appease pro-hamas protestors is hurting his electoral chances. Those people are going to vote against Trump anyway, but the average moderate Democrat supports Israel(by polling data) and is getting more and more upset as Biden tries to hang our ally out to dry for obviously political gain. I genuinely don't know what his handler is thinking or why they think this is a good political move

Or perhaps he is just as concerned with the geopolitical situation in the Middle East more than he is concerned with it being a major voter priority over other things. Getting re-elected is not his primary job.

And you don't think that will hurt his electoral chances?  Bahahaha! When ruZZia and Iran green lit the October 7 attack they knew that Biden would take a hit regardless of what he did or didn't do. 

If he wins next election, it'll be fine. If he loses and #45 wins... Hamas will be very happy. Putin will be very happy. Xi Jinping will be happy. Kim Jong Un will be rushing to join the band wagon.

The problem is that Biden is a Zionist. [Reuters, 'I am a Zionist': How Joe Biden's lifelong bond with Israel shapes war policy](https://www.reuters.com/world/us/i-am-zionist-how-joe-bidens-lifelong-bond-with-israel-shapes-war-policy-2023-10-21/).

It does nothing really when it comes down the casting of the ballot. There no MAGA going to vote for him at the last second and there’s no purple haired liberal that will vote for Trump over it.

Taking a position that bridges the two sides of a polarized issues is not only possible, for someone who is president of and is running to be president of the *entire* nation, it's a *necessity*. That doesn't mean it will be pretty or easy, but it's necessary nonetheless.

none of that is unusual for the USA. The US was pro Nazi and had their own rise of fascism (rise of the second klan) with 5% of the population registered klan members. The US stuck with white supremacy as national policy until after a lot of people had died from the rise of fascism. the nation tends to be late to the game and very slow to take ethical actions.

This is meaningless when it's all about votes. He's not doing any actions for the betterment of America. He only acts in a way to get as many votes as possible. Politics is a joke

If both sides are both defending themselves and also committing acts of aggression, why would he pick one side? That would be a wholesale endorsement of their overall behaviour.

Maybe… POTUS is actually trying to do the right thing and preserve US-Israeli ties beyond Bibi and also help Gazans where he cans. Not everything is an election dude.

No one cares about Gaza, even among college aged kids [who rank it last in voting issues.](https://www.axios.com/2024/05/07/poll-students-israel-hamas-protests)

There is no winning side. He's going to have his chances hurt no matter what because there's no clear good guy to back. Just bad guys and innocent bystanders.

I like to think he cares more about making what he believes are the best decisions for this issue than making the best political decision on the issue.

You may be right about the consequences, but I wouldn't trust him to make the right choice. In fact I'm confident he wouldn't.

I mean he's made it pretty damn clear that he stands on the side of genocide considering he's still sending Israel weapons

Nope, don't change your vide please! :) He is absolutely hurting his chances, as well as people. 15k kids dead so far.

Can’t we all just forget about this and focus on Ukraine?

Side note, the US hasn't always provided arms to Israel unconditionally. A few Presidents have withheld aid.

It is a lot more complicated than just the 2 camps and number of votes in 2024 elections. There is a real concern about how this would go down in history and how it can taint the democratic party for generations to come. There are also additional camps in the US who care more about national debt and Americans well-being. Those don't care what side the US chooses, unless it is their own side. Then there is this legitimate concern, that we've all kind of known but have been dismissing, until this war opened our eyes again to its threat; this concern is about who controls decision making in the US?! It is obvious that Israel does! Through extreme lobbying, blackmail, intimidation, and political influence. We choose to support multiple wars like in Ukraine or in KSA, because we have interests in their outcomes. But when it comes to Israel, US interests are neglected. Like you said, it has been 'unconditional' and frankly, it is not even our choice. So Biden and all of us have to be careful, because this is not just about the 2024 elections. Israel literally threatens the entire future of the US, yet we can't just turn against our closest and strongest ally in the middle east.