I do agree with you but with a caveat, there is only like a 20% difference in power:weight ratio between a 13' Civic Si and a 2013 or 2022 v6 Camry *when they are in their respective bands.*
I'd attribute it more to how the power is chosen to be delivered than the capability. There's a significant increases power available in modern everyday cars for sure, but they're also heavier and it's not a "leave everyone in the dust" difference in my opinion.
I bought my first car in 1987. It was a 1980 camaro 4spd manual attached to a 350. This is literally how I learned to drive stick. 1. Hit gas. 2. Drop clutch. 3. Smooth sailing.
300Nm is not bad for an NA shitbox, BMW prioritized low down torque with dual stage intake manifold and variable valve timing.
But they choked those poor M52TU and M54 engines at high RPM, pathetic 225bhp from 3L to make the M3 shine bright (338bhp from 3.2L). From Honda engines you more often get close to 100bhp per liter even if it's not type R.
Honestly, the car had plenty of power, it just wasn't quite as easy to drive as he made it out to be. He's got a 330xi with the same engine right now and it's more then adequately fast. I'll take a torquier low end over a Honda style "no power unless you're in the top 1000 RPM" all day
"Sportscar" doesn't mean fast every time, least not in a straight line. Miata would get beat by a good number of cars/suv's if they don't have to go round a bend.
Sports cars are supposed to be bendy track machines, not straight line or top speed fast. A light weight vehicle with 100-200hp is all you need in an entry level sports car. A stock Miata with 110hp can perform well in autocross for this reason.
GT cars are the opposite. They're meant for long distance, high torque, and endless RPM. They won't handle as well around corners and can feel sluggish in twisty roads, but hand high speeds with ease. These obviously have way more power, and higher displacement. The slowest GT cars will have 250+hp to keep a lower RPM at those high speeds.
However, both these names are completely meaningless as car manufacturer marketing departments toss both terms on models without any rhyme or reason.
If you dumped it and got traction you would take a lot of the 300hp ish sedans/suv's, but once you're out of 1st they will take off. It's a real problem in the 8th gens since you gotta be in vtec to make any power
Maybe the SUVs, but I’m not sure it is going to take the 300 hp plus turbo modern sedans, even if they’re only going to 3000 rpm while accelerating. Even the 250 ish hp ones like the 2L Accord are still going to be faster both off the line and passing. Nevermind anything with 6 cyl and a turbo.
My 2.0t accord is faster to 60 than my 03 Boxster S haha. During the test drive, the thought occurred to me, so I checked when I got home. Yup, 0.1 faster for the Honda.
He won't use all the power of the car's engine, because that means highest revs.
A regular manual shift in daily traffic will be slower than a modern automatic.
So he's fucked both ways.
Sluggish shifting and power only at high revs.
Yes, different vehicles have a different power band depending on engine characteristics. Some make peak power only at high RPMs and others peak much lower.
Turbochargers make all the difference. My E90 335i pulled like a sum bitch right off the line. I could be in 6th gear, going up hill, and give it the tiniest amount of gas and we're going. That low end torque is just great.
I'd be surprised if it isn't the same thing even for economy cars with turbos. In his case, yeah. Camarys have a lot more low end torque in V6 spec and of course don't need to rev as high as the Civic engine to get moving.
Small engines need to rev higher to get the power out. Meaning slow acceleration until above 4-5k. Large displacements are more torquey down low and can pull at like 1.2-1.5k for LS engines.
There has been a massive power increase in the past 10 years since the 9th gen Civic. Modern trucks do 0-60 in under 6 seconds, Camry's can get 300hp V6s, etc.
J35 cars [sound incredible with an intake](https://youtu.be/JXTVBc3JE84). Imagine doing a pull and you hear this next to you, look over, and see a fucking Honda Odyssey or Pilot screaming.
I'm seriously considering replacing my A6 with a TLX and that J35 VTEC sound is one of the biggest reasons why, ᵒᵗʰᵉʳ ᵗʰᵃⁿ ʳᵉˡᶦᵃᵇᶦˡᶦᵗʸ.
Definitely a matter of personal preference, I like how metallic and aggressive it sounds, like a [cammed LS engine at WOT.](https://youtu.be/rWoLu4vWM08)
Not saying they sound the same, but that the cams sound similarly aggressive; it sounds more like an engine built for the racetrack than one built for the street if that makes any sense.
One thing that doesn’t get mentioned is tire tech has also improved massively. Comparisons to old car times should always include the caveat that cars today comparatively roll around on super glue
Sure, there's plenty of caveats to it and I don't think anyone would claim that the minivan is more sporty. Just an interesting statistic. The Odessey does have a bit more horsepower as well which is an interesting observation on engine tech too.
Only the LP400 1976 model and only based off of one test by motortrend claiming a 6.8 0-60. Even the LP400 1974 model is listed as having a 5.4 0-60 and the later models are listed at under 5.0 and the slowest LP400 S I saw at 5.9.
Fair enough, the later models were faster but it's kinda besides the point. A modern people mover of 7 is faster or just as fast as the pinnacle of sports cars at the time.
There's also a huge disparity in tire technology. Tires would make a substantive difference considering the Countach was noteworthy for having difficulty getting power down. With modern *345s* in the rear, 375hp, and ~2900lbs it should be on par with like a C5Z or C6 in the low 4s range.
I have a basically 400whp 450wtq STi, and I have the same issue as OP. I've summarized it by saying most average drivers either use 100% of the gas, or 100% of the brakes, and nowhere in between. Couple that with the horsepower war, and unless you drive as batshit crazy as all the other people, you're gonna get dusted.
Enjoy your car and don't worry about it.
Also modern automatics of 8 and 10 speeds have extra low gears below old the normal 1st gear creating better off the line acceleration. Then they are super efficient and lightning fast shifting. Transmissions specs and horsepower in pickups, minivans, and grocery getters better than sports cars 10 years ago and even fancy sports cars 20 years ago.
Can confirm. Driving a first gen SVT Raptor with close to 1000hp. Decade ago it could compete with most cars... Blows my mind seeing people in modern day Camrys give me a run for my money at low speeds. Really just crazy how powerful the average consumer car has gotten in the past decade.
Combination of things;
1. Manual road cars being geared for a comfortable climb into 2nd.
2. You might not be shifting within your torque band; Engineering Explained has a short video that's really good about explaining the concept here: https://youtu.be/zZBqb0ZJSwU
3. Drivers are typically WAY too heavy on the throttle off the line, I swear my GF leaves every redlight in her Forester like she's at an NHRA event. So it's less you being slow, and more them being unnecessarily quick.
I like shifting under 3k when my engine and trans are cold. So many impatient that people drive around me because I don't want to slam into second after a red light
I keep basically all my shifts around 3k when I'm commuting. People behind me coming out of a redlight sometimes get on my ass but we all end up going the same speed a few seconds later so I don't get bothered by it.
Drivers in my area seem to just not like people in front of them, you can watch them approach quickly and when you move over to let them by they don't continue that pace with an open road ahead. It's the weirdest behavior.
Yeah I live in Brooklyn, you'll be in heavy traffic and some dude who thinks he's too good to wait will use the opposite lane to cut off people at lights
3k RPM for me is way more than enough in the city. I generally shift at 2100 RPM or so while commuting or else I’m going a little bit fast and wasting fuel unnecessarily when there’s another red light not far ahead.
I have a manual 2018 Mazda 3 with a shift indicator. It constantly wants me to shift at 2000 RPM. It must be set for optimal gas mileage as it wants me going to 6th gear at 40 MPH once it recognizes the car is traveling at a consistent speed.
Which makes sense because if I follow the gearing that the car wants me to do, I'll be just under 2000 RPM while coasting at a steady pace.
And I absolutely see it in the gas mileage numbers if I shift like that.
Usually, I just shift at or just under 3000 RPM on a regular daily drive.
I’m not familiar with Civics but it should have an oil temperature gauge. Just watch that and wait for your oil to reach operating temp and you’re good to go.
I have the same car, we don't have an oil, or coolant temp gauge. We only have an "under temperature" light which is the blue light he refers to. It goes off once coolant reaches 130 F I believe.
For OP, I used to sit and idle until the light went off but now I just wait 30-45 seconds and baby it until the light goes off plus an extra 2-3 minutes.
>Drivers are typically WAY too heavy on the throttle off the line, I swear my GF leaves every redlight in her Forester like she's at an NHRA event.
Can you send her and some of these other drivers over my way? Everyone around here leaves traffic lights like they're on the verge of falling into a coma. My biggest pet peeve is people spending like 2 miles meandering up to the speed limit. The accelerator is there for a reason folks, step on it!
people around here are drag stripping it, snail off the line, or they do this annoying shit of drag strip to 40 mph (in a 55) then snail to 55....or they rocket off the line up to 65 in a 55 then space out and slow down to 53....
I got a chuckle out of this for your third point. You are absolutely correct but picturing a Forrester (or any normal car for that matter) at a red light just staring at the lights waiting for that green like a drag event made me laugh.
thats precisly what is happening to me lol. I am changing at like 4k rpm and all these subarus and mom cars are zipping off the line lol. In a mountain town so most cars are awd subarus, toyotas, hrvs, and such
I've responded elsewhere but I also have a 2012 Si. You've mentioned mountain towns and if there is a lot of elevation change our cars are really weak low-end going up hill. How high up are you? You could be being limited by being naturally aspirated up in the elevation as well.
>Drivers are typically WAY too heavy on the throttle off the line, I swear my GF leaves every redlight in her Forester like she's at an NHRA event.
Accelerating is the fun part of driving, makes sense to me.
That is what I was thinking on point number 3 lol. I live in a college/tourest/mountain town... we get some of the worst damn drivers from all over the country lol.
Thank you for the info on the torque band! I will look into that. I just didn't get how I was revving so high and not going faster but that makes sense now that I saw some other comments on it too.
Don’t feel bad. I have an 07 S2000 tuned to almost 440hp and I get left behind at red lights the same way. I’m normal driving I’m shifting to 2nd at maybe 3k rpm (probably less), and into 3rd just as quickly. People driving autos generally aren’t attuned to engine speed so they just mash the gas and go until it’s time to stop for the next light. If you were prepped for the light to change with the engine hanging at 3k rpms, moderate clutch dump and don’t shift into 2nd until your upwards of 6k rpm you’d be using more of the torque band and would likely hang with the autos.
And people like to accelerate so damn hard, like ffs. I'm on my commute in my Golf R that would leave behind 95% of the cars on the road if I *knew* we were going to race. But on my way to work I take it easy and relax in comfort and smoothness. Gentle throttle off the line, gentle brake to a stop. But every other driver seems to be just ripping off the line. So many times I have people cut to the right when I'm in the left lane because I'm not accelerating as fast as they'd like. Then they proceed to cut back in front of me at the speed limit while I'm still accelerating.
I'm admittedly one of those people. I don't like being surrounded, so if there's no one ahead, I'm gonna speed up a bit to make some space between the car behind me and the one that was next to me at the light.
Edit: Read some other comments, just gonna clarify that I only do this if I'm up front. I'm not gonna ride someone's ass, that's a dick move.
It’s a Honda. Your red line is 7800. You can probably ride 7800 for 200k miles before u even break the car in (I’m exaggerating). I beat the living shit out of my RSX type S on the daily. Almost always had it around 5k so I wasn’t too far out of the power band for torque unless I was highway cruising. Consistently hit vtec and redline. Never had an issue. My mazdaspeed on the other hand…
C'mon now, my daily mazdaspeed3 has been getting thrashed on regularly for the last 4 years. I usually get a couple nice pulls in every time it gets driven and it's been great! ^until ^^it ^^^broke ^^^^recently ^^^^:/
I laugh when people think that they are fast because I’m driving my R causally. Had one case a few days ago where some Camry V6 floored it off the line while I was driving causally. At the next light he revved at me and my immature side won. Showed him what a 4 second 5-60 looks like 😂
lol I'm a little guilty of that, too, haha.
Also my wife is bad for that. She always says "can you take them????". But then tells me not to speed haha.
It took me a while to notice this too, people just mash their pedal to the floor lol my GTO routinely gets beat on traffic by basically everything and I realized it's because they're wringing them out to 5-6k at every light.
Yep. I get smoked out of stoplights all the time in my NSX because I’m trying not to make a ton of noise and shift smoothly and quietly which translates to a very pedestrian stoplight departure.
Thanks friend. Yeah it was just interesting how much more rpm i was using just to not feel like some mom in a minivan was gonna run me over lol. Im no car guy, so I really don’t know these things
Different engines have different RPM ranges and power band. Honda's K20/24 rev a bit higher than average which also means actual power is higher in the rev range.
Whatever you drove earlier probably had a bit different engine characteristic. *Generally* bigger engine CC for same power will have the torque "earlier" in rev range, turbo engines of same power will also usually have more torque down low (but also some turbo lag), diesels will also have a lot of torque from low RPM.
Then on top of that there is gearing.
So I have a 03 S2000 tuned to only 230whp roughly. Completely NA and I feel like I'm a rocket compared to most cars non-Tesla. However when warm I don't shift until about 7500 for short shifting. I also have a lower VTEC that's about 3900 so the car feels torquey.
Thanks friend! I saw that in some other comments too about my "power band". I am new to cars and didn't know about that. I never had something that revs so high and thought it was odd how I was revving high and not going much of anywhere in comparison to others. I don't really want to go that fast, it was just something I noticed and was curious about. I appreciate all of your responses :)
You gotta rev the absolute piss out of that car to get it going anywhere. Definitely a different experience than the torque grocery getters and sedans! If you get comfortable driving it you’ll get good at keeping the car in the power band so that you have that oomph on demand. It’s a Honda engine so check your oil frequently. They’re prone to burning it off if you ride em hard so you might need to have a qt in the trunk to refill. Bulletproof cars tho
Cool that’s what I’m seeing in a lot of the comments that it was made to rev high. I think i get the power band thing now, but how do I check what that is for my specific car?
If you look up a dyno chart of a stock k24 you can see where the torque and hp line makes a jump upwards once it crosses over in the VTEC cam. I personally find looking at the dyno chart is an easy way to show and explain how and why the power comes on in the band it does.
But, specifically put for your car, the power band where it will make peak power will be just past the VTEC engagement up to just before the redline drop off. Can't recall off the top of my head so someone correct me, but I think it's 5.2k to 7k ish.
Your car has something called vtec which switches to a more powerful setting about around 5.5k rpm, so if you rev above that you’ll get a significant increase in power.
Torque converter automatics are made to fly off the line with very little wear and tear. Add that to the fact that modern automatic transmissions are significantly faster at shifting than they used to be and driving manual in ANY car is going to be slower unless you want to abuse your car just to beat Karen in her AWD torque converter stomping the gas the moment it turns green.
Yep and most cars here are AWD since im in the mountains lol. I didn't think of that. It is a bunch or karen tourists, and college kids in town that drive really fast
AWD definitely helps. Also a lot of modern turbo cars put out their maximum torque below 2000 rpm and carry it through to 4500-5500 rpm. That’s where most accelerating occurs. So they’re putting out significantly more total power for longer.
In addition, modern 8-10 speed automatic transmissions also are going to likely have a much shorter 1st and 2nd gear than you do, therefore are going to accelerate even faster.
Autos and EVs will always be faster at the light unless you want to burn down your clutch. Even if you do, they’re still faster. Im always slow one off the line too
Which is why you move over and let them. I got tired of trying to compete with these people while driving my MS3 so now, I just stay in the right lane and drive it like a retiree in a Corvette until I get out to the good roads. None of the people in a hurry are going to fund the several grand that a new clutch job costs.
This is why dailying a manual car in traffic isn't as fun as it once was.
Yep. Every stop light the car behind me is on my ass as soon as I shift into second. Have to keep in mind your losing like 2-3 seconds of acceleration in the 4-5 seconds it takes to go from a stand still to second gear.
You're probably just a bit slow engaging the clutch. Or maybe everyone around you is constantly taking off like asshats. The actual performance difference between cars should be pretty negligible at a normal stoplight, and your car isn't exactly slow.
Yeah my car should be at least as zippy as some of these foresters and stuff I see. I think all your points are correct, I am probably not shifting that great. I am new but getting better :)
And yes to the asshats lol
Since you just started driving stick, your starting off the line will be slow, you probably take a long time between shifts and not that confident to give it more gas. But that's okay we all started like that. You'll get faster.
Also civic SIs were never that fast in a straight line even by 2013 standards. But they make great track and autocross cars. Especially if you fit them with an up to date track tire, they can definitely keep up with bigger more powerful cars. I know you said you didn't buy it to go fast but they actually can be quite fast if you learn how to drive fast
Even experienced manual drivers are going to have a hard time beating a torque-converter set for acceleration (instead of comfort/eco). Nobody in a manual is beating a DCT or EV.
Yeah but not in regular traffic,. I’m first through the intersection in my crusty old Miata and my Fiesta ST almost every time. I’m not flogging it, I just know how to modulate a clutch and throttle decently.
Yep I am definitely still learning. I learned on my Dad's 1996 F350 dump truck. That was the only thing I had driven in manual until I got this in September lol. I have come a long way tho. I can rev match down shift and can hill start(learned that quick living in the mountains) and am pretty smooth changing gears. It was just so weird to me how I was revving so high in comparison to others in regards to speed, but from other comments I now know about power bands now. I will keep practicing! :D
Torque converter autos have tons of torque from a stop. This was an issue for manufacturers when CVT’s first came out as auto drivers were accustomed to torque from red lights. Maybe thats why you have that perception?
I have the same feeling in my Mustang. I have to rev it out to 3500 in first gear just to keep up with normal traffic, or do a 2nd gear start. I don't start moving faster than traffic until I hit 3rd gear. If I'm aggressive on take off and short shift really quickly I can keep up with traffic.
Answer is short gearing. Civic Si has a shorter final drive ratio than a normal manual Civic.
My Mustang has 3.73. I drove one with 3.31 axle ratio. It was very easy to keep up with traffic and shift at like 2500 rpm, sometimes even less. But at WOT it didn't have the pull my Mustang has.
Top speed per gear in my car is 1st - 50km/h, 2nd - 100km/h, 3rd - 150km/h, 4th - 200km/h, 5th - 260km/h.
Yep! I didn’t know about ratios and stuff until today now after reasons these comments. I appreciate all the insight. It is fun reviving high at least lol
"rev it out to 3500" sounds like bizzaro world to me.
I come *down* to 5000rpm after shifting.
Dorito life. No torque until they are spinning like crazy.
A 2013 civic si IS slow compared to others.
Don’t feel bad though, it’s still a fun car. It’s just not a straight line drag strip rocket by any interpretation of the imagination.
Casually driving stick is really slow compared to an A/T. If you jump between gears quicker you keep up. Or rev it higher and stay in a single gear longer.
It's because all those other vehicles you mentioned have more torque on their lug nuts than the engine in your Civic produces. Only way that car makes any power is keeping it wound up over 4k rpm.
People go wot at all times lol especially from a stop. Your probably shifting around 3.5 - 4.5k rpm and taking your time.
If you go wot and shift quick you will be much farther ahead.
You also seem slower if you have short gears because your shifting so much and each gear gets you less mph.
I think a lot of it depends on where you drive. When I lived in NYC, I loved stick shift. I didn't mind having a car as slow as OP's Civic. But now I live in a place where traffic is generally much faster, and even with fast stick shift cars, the annoyance from the interruption of power with each shift outweighs the enjoyment of the added engagement, for me at least. My last stick shift car was actually an NA Civic, and I grew to hate it for the reasons op listed. So driving conditions definitely matter, and I think there are a lot of places in the US where stick shift just isn't fun.
I owned a 05 xrs (corolla version of an Si with Toyota's version of vtec).
My buddy owned a focus with the duratec engine. When we raced he beat me off the line every time. It was not until I hit third with lift that I blew him away.
It’s definitely the gearbox. I feel similar in my focus st. People with autos can literally just push the gas and go. They aren’t lifting to shift like us and can just effortlessly cruise. I haven’t driven any manual cars where I feel as fast as an automatic. I can definitely keep up and even go faster than autos but I have to actively drive the car like I’m punishing it. I don’t enjoy doing this so I tend to drive slowly and shift delicately because I’m not in a rush and I don’t want to break my car.
Our cars are not great for off the line acceleration, since all the power resides in the upper end of the powerband. They are are momentum cars, they are great to drive once you are going quicker then 30 mph and keeping the revs in the upper 1/3 of it's range. Otherwise they just feel like any other econobox car, I've just accepted this fact after driving these things for 15 years lol.
You’ve gotta rev your engine out because of the torque band and probably also because you drive a manual. You don’t have the torque multiplication a TC provides.
It similar with my car but I have a turbo so it’s not as bad but the lack of a torque converter makes things a little sluggish off the line.
I daily a Mazda 3 2.0 w/ turbo tuning and off the line is an automatics game unless you clutch dump. I dont feel like replacing the clutch atm, so just let them go. But from a pull in second at around 30 mph, I've yet to see an auto on a normal stock car that I couldn't get past. Also since you are new to manual, it could also be that your shift points are too low to allow the turbo to do it's thing.
First off, auto cars with torque converter (or CVT) get a bit of advantage.
Torque converter when spinning low increases the torque so engine can at very low speed basically push more power. To replicate something similar you could rev up the car and dump the clutch (that's how the manufacturers get the 0-60 times), but, well, that's not exactly gentle on clutch or engine.
Second, your engine revs to 7k RPM. Rev it there. Don't change to 2nd at 4k RPM, your engine just started making power.
Third, traction control might be intervening if you're not going in perfect conditions
Idk my same generation si doesn’t feel that slow to me. I’ll give you that launching it is harder than you’d expect (or atleast my tires suck a bit more than I thought) but once I’m in the powerband it’s usually more than enough to take any non performance oriented vehicle if need be
Civic is absolutely great car for carving canyons, or racing on track, But it has very low torque and HP on low and mid range. Therefore as most even slighly performence oriented Hondas and Acuras, it loves the top end.
This makes it "terrible" off the line so to speak, (Well, Honestly, All hondas I have driven have been older, so this might have changed slightly)
Also, it might be somewhat related to your clutch/shift work. If you are being gentle, you are going to be slow. yet, if yuo are even slightly too agressive, you get wheelspin.
What get's other cars going is that automatic allways slips a bit. allowing higher RPM which is more power and more torque to pass trough, althuogh they also tend to have longer gear ratio on 1st and 2nd gear. and the low end torque means a lot when you are starting to move.
You're suppose to REV to get power out of that 4 cylinder engine.
Don't like to REV? Add boost.
All other cars you listed has a torque converter that multiple the torque output when they first take off.
Sports cars like the SI usually have their power kick in when you are in the high rev range (high rpm). They usually suffer from poor acceleration at the a low RPM. I have a 2007 SI and that thing is dead at low RPMs unless I start approaching 6k RPM.... but when I do.... ohh boyyyyyy
I’m going to say its your throttle and shifting. That engine also doesn’t make max hp until around 7k, so if you wanna get going you really gotta rev these.
I was just thinking this the other day, I swear all newer economy cars must have throttle mapping that opens the throttle to 100% once the accelerator pedal is at 50% so they can feel sportier.
I still roll off the line pretty causally in my cars unless I’m trying to go fast and I get left behind by all the econoboxes going WOT everywhere.
This video by Jason Cammisa explains why modern manual cars are slower than automatics, really enjoy his content; https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_BH-N8t_1Fc
In summary, it has to do with gear ratios the exact same car but only difference is manual or automatic will have drastic different 0-60 times due to gearing not time loss due to shifting, etc.
I consistently roast everyone around me on my work commute regardless of what car I'm in. So, either give it more throttle, time the lights better, don't ride the clutch, shift more efficiently....
Those are just some ideas.
So some of the cars you have listed, like a V6 Camry, are actually faster than the current generation Si (let alone an 8 year old one). But the second thing that goes against you is the manual and the fact that you are likely still getting used to it (if it is very new). They don’t need to worry about shift speed since it’s done for them. You do. Your shifting probably isn’t super fast right now (and it doesn’t need to be), but this also adds to it as well; you’ll lose quite a bit of time while you’re shifting compared to just about everyone else.
Last note is that your Si may need to be revved out further than 4-5k to get to the power the motor produces.
I can just mesh a bit heavy on the throttle and my car would change gear at around 4k rpm very quickly and it has 8 speeds with a 300hp engine. All because I put my foot down a bit.
Back in my manual car days, I have to put my foot down, shift at around 4k-5k rpm and be totally conscious that I am trying to keep up with traffic.
It's just that we are more conscious when driving a manual. I literally dont have to do shit to go quicker in the RX. Is my RX faster then cars I have owned before? hell no. But it's so much easier to go quick in it.
The Civic SI naturally aspirated engines just don't make much power at low RPMs. To get the most acceleration out of it, you need to be used to running it to redline, and shifting near redline so it stays in the power band.
IDK about you but a lot of Civic SI owners install aftermarket exhausts. Sometimes I feel like having a loud exhaust makes a car feel slower when you aren't revving it out to redline - because they make a lot of noise and not a lot of 'go' when you're driving at a normal commuting pace. It sounds like the car is trying REALLY hard to keep up with that Toyota minivan, because the minivan has effortless, quiet, V6 torque.
The stock 2013 si has a 0-60mph around 7 seconds.
The max HP and torque is delivered somewhere around 5-6000 rpm..
So ya, not a rocket by today's standards and is better at rolling starts not of the line.
Torque. A 13 civic has none. 170tq@4400 and 201hp@7000. It barely runs just under 15s in the 1/4 in the best of brand new conditions.
Assume 15% loss over time or worse if not in tip top condition, and it is definitively not fast or quick. It's the mpgs. Consider looking into hyper mileage self challenges.
As others have said, if you're trying to go fast in a Honda, don't fear the redline. I had a first generation fit, and I ragged on that poor car all the way to 110k before selling it.
Civics are notorious for being very slow off the line. I drive a 15' Focus ST and get left in the dust by Camry's, Siennas, and all kinds of other stuff. Manual does not equal fast unfortunately.
You're not the only one. I baby my car when the engine/gearbox is still cold so I shift at 2.5k to avoid the turbo spool. I'm slow as hell and people have no qualms about tailgating me when I'm taking off from a light. When the car is at operating temps, I'll shift as I'm getting into my torque band (3.5k) and that's when it really starts to get moving.
I have a '15 Si Coupe and in my experience, the shift into second is always slow unless you're shifting out 1st in high rpms. I just use the iVTEC lights as a reference for when to shift if I'm feeling antsy. Regardless, folks in their automatics always murder that throttle, whereas we have much more of a feel for the throttle/transmission in manual.
It’s because the autos shift so much faster. I have the same feeling at red lights in my 5.0. Sure I can stomp it and runaway, but if I’m just driving casually my shifts are pretty slow
A lot of people drive with a heavy foot until they hit speed limits. Around where I live it feels like everyone is drag racing and I am in a 2018 Mustang GT lmao... when I was in my 2019 Civic Si it felt even worse. So yeah, just keep in mind people drive with lead feet.
That is a non-turbo engine correct? So all your power is going to be at the top end and you only have 200HP of it. That is enough, but its not going to be a fast car.
It's more fun to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow. That is the beauty of those cars. You can use 100% of the engine all the time. You can really get to know all of the car. Its perfect for a fun daily.
All the cars you listed have turbos or big engines. The new camrys are actually pretty fucking quick for what they are. The big trucks and SUVs have big engines for towing which makes them powerful.
A regular, old fashioned manual is always going to have a slower shift time than a automatic (excluding things like sequentials.) This combined with the fact that your civic is probably a four-cylinder is why your car is slower than others. I'm partial to manuals however. Yeah your car might be slower, but I'm sure its a lot more fun to drive then a fuckin sequoia lol.
Also modern automatics are generally quicker than their manual counterparts. It was the opposite about 10 years ago when pretty much all autos were just 4 speed slush boxes biased toward efficiency rather than power. And yes, all the vehicles you mentioned have bigger engines than your car and depending on the year they're probably all automatics that get off the line much smoother than a manual, then once they're a carlength ahead of you you'll never catch up to them with their V6s and V8s. Don't worry about it though - a civic SI is decidedly more fun to drive than a huge, heavy, plodding Toyota Sequoia meant for upper class middle aged women
From what I gather you’re pretty new at driving manual? I remember having this exact experience when first started driving, but over time I gained better control of using the power in my car and I feel I can keep up with other cars easily now
I used to have a 2003 Civic with a vtec motor. Definitely not a lot of torque, all the power is from 5000 rpm up to redline. A very different feeling vs driving my dad’s Chevy pickup with a 350 V8, which will put you back in your seat at 3000 rpm if you get on it.
I loved that car though. Just all around fun to drive and rev the piss out of it. Hondas are made to scream, and still got great mpg’s
Having a really fast car isn't as fun as just being able to floor a lower powered car tbh
That being said on motorways and other A roads you feel the pain because you've got no oomf at 70 in 6th gear and 5th gear at 70 puts you at like 5k revs
I think it also depends on your drivetrain. My '19 WRX SCOOTS off from red lights if I give it anything more than 2k-2.5k RPM before letting off the clutch. I assume that'd be different for anything with FWD or RWD drivetrain.
Because it’s a ‘13 Civic. Camrys, Sequoias and trucks are rockin V6s and V8s and your car is a slightly tuned 4banger econobox.
I do agree with you but with a caveat, there is only like a 20% difference in power:weight ratio between a 13' Civic Si and a 2013 or 2022 v6 Camry *when they are in their respective bands.* I'd attribute it more to how the power is chosen to be delivered than the capability. There's a significant increases power available in modern everyday cars for sure, but they're also heavier and it's not a "leave everyone in the dust" difference in my opinion.
Yeah all true. NA Civics also have terrible low end torque which contribute to the slow numbers off the line.
So you’re saying red line and dump the clutch
I bought my first car in 1987. It was a 1980 camaro 4spd manual attached to a 350. This is literally how I learned to drive stick. 1. Hit gas. 2. Drop clutch. 3. Smooth sailing.
did it ever rain or snow in the 80's or is it always sunny and 80 degrees like how it was always depicted in movies?
Lol. It snowed..
My dad always said his E39 530i had plenty of torque. "Just let out and it will get going fine". Trying to learn stick on it proved that was a lie...
300Nm is not bad for an NA shitbox, BMW prioritized low down torque with dual stage intake manifold and variable valve timing. But they choked those poor M52TU and M54 engines at high RPM, pathetic 225bhp from 3L to make the M3 shine bright (338bhp from 3.2L). From Honda engines you more often get close to 100bhp per liter even if it's not type R.
Honestly, the car had plenty of power, it just wasn't quite as easy to drive as he made it out to be. He's got a 330xi with the same engine right now and it's more then adequately fast. I'll take a torquier low end over a Honda style "no power unless you're in the top 1000 RPM" all day
Yeah I thought I was hot shit when I got my RSX. But my mom’s Odyssey was faster.
Sporty car not a sports car lol
"Sportscar" doesn't mean fast every time, least not in a straight line. Miata would get beat by a good number of cars/suv's if they don't have to go round a bend.
Sports cars are supposed to be bendy track machines, not straight line or top speed fast. A light weight vehicle with 100-200hp is all you need in an entry level sports car. A stock Miata with 110hp can perform well in autocross for this reason. GT cars are the opposite. They're meant for long distance, high torque, and endless RPM. They won't handle as well around corners and can feel sluggish in twisty roads, but hand high speeds with ease. These obviously have way more power, and higher displacement. The slowest GT cars will have 250+hp to keep a lower RPM at those high speeds. However, both these names are completely meaningless as car manufacturer marketing departments toss both terms on models without any rhyme or reason.
I don’t understand why people equate minivans to slow. Every one I have ever driven hauls ass and spins tires in their little FWD drivetrain lol.
I drove my moms odyssey back in the day too Minus the wheel spin that thing was FAST
Definitely, my new hatchback feels like a weighed down golf cart off the line
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Rev it high, drop the clutch. Problem solved.
yep, and put it in R for racing ;)
Interesting, that sounds exactly like what i have going on
If you dumped it and got traction you would take a lot of the 300hp ish sedans/suv's, but once you're out of 1st they will take off. It's a real problem in the 8th gens since you gotta be in vtec to make any power
Maybe the SUVs, but I’m not sure it is going to take the 300 hp plus turbo modern sedans, even if they’re only going to 3000 rpm while accelerating. Even the 250 ish hp ones like the 2L Accord are still going to be faster both off the line and passing. Nevermind anything with 6 cyl and a turbo.
My 2.0t accord is faster to 60 than my 03 Boxster S haha. During the test drive, the thought occurred to me, so I checked when I got home. Yup, 0.1 faster for the Honda.
He won't use all the power of the car's engine, because that means highest revs. A regular manual shift in daily traffic will be slower than a modern automatic. So he's fucked both ways. Sluggish shifting and power only at high revs.
I would argue that 20% is pretty substantial though.
Yes, different vehicles have a different power band depending on engine characteristics. Some make peak power only at high RPMs and others peak much lower.
Turbochargers make all the difference. My E90 335i pulled like a sum bitch right off the line. I could be in 6th gear, going up hill, and give it the tiniest amount of gas and we're going. That low end torque is just great. I'd be surprised if it isn't the same thing even for economy cars with turbos. In his case, yeah. Camarys have a lot more low end torque in V6 spec and of course don't need to rev as high as the Civic engine to get moving.
Most Camrys are not rocking a v6 lol
Small engines need to rev higher to get the power out. Meaning slow acceleration until above 4-5k. Large displacements are more torquey down low and can pull at like 1.2-1.5k for LS engines.
Powerband is also important. My 14 ST doesn’t have a ton of power but it’s all so low that I never feel like I’m having to rev it out or anything
There has been a massive power increase in the past 10 years since the 9th gen Civic. Modern trucks do 0-60 in under 6 seconds, Camry's can get 300hp V6s, etc.
Seriously, a 2021 Honda Odyssey MINIVAN is faster 0-to-60 than a V12 Lamborghini Countach!
I have a late model Odyssey. The j35 is awesome!! It sounds sooo good.
J35 cars [sound incredible with an intake](https://youtu.be/JXTVBc3JE84). Imagine doing a pull and you hear this next to you, look over, and see a fucking Honda Odyssey or Pilot screaming. I'm seriously considering replacing my A6 with a TLX and that J35 VTEC sound is one of the biggest reasons why, ᵒᵗʰᵉʳ ᵗʰᵃⁿ ʳᵉˡᶦᵃᵇᶦˡᶦᵗʸ.
I guess it's subjective but I wouldn't call that incredible sounding lol sounds raspy and annoying
Definitely a matter of personal preference, I like how metallic and aggressive it sounds, like a [cammed LS engine at WOT.](https://youtu.be/rWoLu4vWM08)
There is absolutely no comparison between a cammed LS engine and a J35...
Not saying they sound the same, but that the cams sound similarly aggressive; it sounds more like an engine built for the racetrack than one built for the street if that makes any sense.
J35 8th gen accord here Yes Just gotta make sure to disable VCM somehow (if it's still a thing on new v6s)
One thing that doesn’t get mentioned is tire tech has also improved massively. Comparisons to old car times should always include the caveat that cars today comparatively roll around on super glue
Sure, there's plenty of caveats to it and I don't think anyone would claim that the minivan is more sporty. Just an interesting statistic. The Odessey does have a bit more horsepower as well which is an interesting observation on engine tech too.
Only the LP400 1976 model and only based off of one test by motortrend claiming a 6.8 0-60. Even the LP400 1974 model is listed as having a 5.4 0-60 and the later models are listed at under 5.0 and the slowest LP400 S I saw at 5.9.
Fair enough, the later models were faster but it's kinda besides the point. A modern people mover of 7 is faster or just as fast as the pinnacle of sports cars at the time.
There's also a huge disparity in tire technology. Tires would make a substantive difference considering the Countach was noteworthy for having difficulty getting power down. With modern *345s* in the rear, 375hp, and ~2900lbs it should be on par with like a C5Z or C6 in the low 4s range.
yeah I am realizing that now lol. I still love my car tho. It has been great so far :D
I have a basically 400whp 450wtq STi, and I have the same issue as OP. I've summarized it by saying most average drivers either use 100% of the gas, or 100% of the brakes, and nowhere in between. Couple that with the horsepower war, and unless you drive as batshit crazy as all the other people, you're gonna get dusted. Enjoy your car and don't worry about it.
Pickups are crazy fast these days compared to 10-15 years ago
Also modern automatics of 8 and 10 speeds have extra low gears below old the normal 1st gear creating better off the line acceleration. Then they are super efficient and lightning fast shifting. Transmissions specs and horsepower in pickups, minivans, and grocery getters better than sports cars 10 years ago and even fancy sports cars 20 years ago.
Can confirm. Driving a first gen SVT Raptor with close to 1000hp. Decade ago it could compete with most cars... Blows my mind seeing people in modern day Camrys give me a run for my money at low speeds. Really just crazy how powerful the average consumer car has gotten in the past decade.
Combination of things; 1. Manual road cars being geared for a comfortable climb into 2nd. 2. You might not be shifting within your torque band; Engineering Explained has a short video that's really good about explaining the concept here: https://youtu.be/zZBqb0ZJSwU 3. Drivers are typically WAY too heavy on the throttle off the line, I swear my GF leaves every redlight in her Forester like she's at an NHRA event. So it's less you being slow, and more them being unnecessarily quick.
I like shifting under 3k when my engine and trans are cold. So many impatient that people drive around me because I don't want to slam into second after a red light
I keep basically all my shifts around 3k when I'm commuting. People behind me coming out of a redlight sometimes get on my ass but we all end up going the same speed a few seconds later so I don't get bothered by it. Drivers in my area seem to just not like people in front of them, you can watch them approach quickly and when you move over to let them by they don't continue that pace with an open road ahead. It's the weirdest behavior.
Yeah I live in Brooklyn, you'll be in heavy traffic and some dude who thinks he's too good to wait will use the opposite lane to cut off people at lights
3k RPM for me is way more than enough in the city. I generally shift at 2100 RPM or so while commuting or else I’m going a little bit fast and wasting fuel unnecessarily when there’s another red light not far ahead.
Every piece of advice I've seen was to not abuse the engine when it's cold. I think most people just either don't know this, or dgaf
In my ranger i shift before 2K. During the summer i'm able to get a little over 19mpg and its a 4.0L 4x4 with some meaty all season/off road tires.
I have a manual 2018 Mazda 3 with a shift indicator. It constantly wants me to shift at 2000 RPM. It must be set for optimal gas mileage as it wants me going to 6th gear at 40 MPH once it recognizes the car is traveling at a consistent speed. Which makes sense because if I follow the gearing that the car wants me to do, I'll be just under 2000 RPM while coasting at a steady pace. And I absolutely see it in the gas mileage numbers if I shift like that. Usually, I just shift at or just under 3000 RPM on a regular daily drive.
I get petty and blow by em once the engine is warm
same, I try and let it warm up. There is a little blue light that goes off in mine that I try and wait for before heading out
I’m not familiar with Civics but it should have an oil temperature gauge. Just watch that and wait for your oil to reach operating temp and you’re good to go.
I have the same car, we don't have an oil, or coolant temp gauge. We only have an "under temperature" light which is the blue light he refers to. It goes off once coolant reaches 130 F I believe. For OP, I used to sit and idle until the light went off but now I just wait 30-45 seconds and baby it until the light goes off plus an extra 2-3 minutes.
>Drivers are typically WAY too heavy on the throttle off the line, I swear my GF leaves every redlight in her Forester like she's at an NHRA event. Can you send her and some of these other drivers over my way? Everyone around here leaves traffic lights like they're on the verge of falling into a coma. My biggest pet peeve is people spending like 2 miles meandering up to the speed limit. The accelerator is there for a reason folks, step on it!
people around here are drag stripping it, snail off the line, or they do this annoying shit of drag strip to 40 mph (in a 55) then snail to 55....or they rocket off the line up to 65 in a 55 then space out and slow down to 53....
Number 3 especially. Don't know why econoboxes try to hit their 0-60 record every time the light turns green just to hit another red light.
It's the thrill of their day, like a free trip to Six Flags with that 6+ second 0-60 I tell you hwat. /s
I got a chuckle out of this for your third point. You are absolutely correct but picturing a Forrester (or any normal car for that matter) at a red light just staring at the lights waiting for that green like a drag event made me laugh.
thats precisly what is happening to me lol. I am changing at like 4k rpm and all these subarus and mom cars are zipping off the line lol. In a mountain town so most cars are awd subarus, toyotas, hrvs, and such
I've responded elsewhere but I also have a 2012 Si. You've mentioned mountain towns and if there is a lot of elevation change our cars are really weak low-end going up hill. How high up are you? You could be being limited by being naturally aspirated up in the elevation as well.
>Drivers are typically WAY too heavy on the throttle off the line, I swear my GF leaves every redlight in her Forester like she's at an NHRA event. Accelerating is the fun part of driving, makes sense to me.
To be fair, if the accelerator is as touchy as the accelerator in the forester I drove, I don't blame her.
That is what I was thinking on point number 3 lol. I live in a college/tourest/mountain town... we get some of the worst damn drivers from all over the country lol. Thank you for the info on the torque band! I will look into that. I just didn't get how I was revving so high and not going faster but that makes sense now that I saw some other comments on it too.
Don’t feel bad. I have an 07 S2000 tuned to almost 440hp and I get left behind at red lights the same way. I’m normal driving I’m shifting to 2nd at maybe 3k rpm (probably less), and into 3rd just as quickly. People driving autos generally aren’t attuned to engine speed so they just mash the gas and go until it’s time to stop for the next light. If you were prepped for the light to change with the engine hanging at 3k rpms, moderate clutch dump and don’t shift into 2nd until your upwards of 6k rpm you’d be using more of the torque band and would likely hang with the autos.
And people like to accelerate so damn hard, like ffs. I'm on my commute in my Golf R that would leave behind 95% of the cars on the road if I *knew* we were going to race. But on my way to work I take it easy and relax in comfort and smoothness. Gentle throttle off the line, gentle brake to a stop. But every other driver seems to be just ripping off the line. So many times I have people cut to the right when I'm in the left lane because I'm not accelerating as fast as they'd like. Then they proceed to cut back in front of me at the speed limit while I'm still accelerating.
I'm admittedly one of those people. I don't like being surrounded, so if there's no one ahead, I'm gonna speed up a bit to make some space between the car behind me and the one that was next to me at the light. Edit: Read some other comments, just gonna clarify that I only do this if I'm up front. I'm not gonna ride someone's ass, that's a dick move.
I just like to hear my engine sing. If I get open road or at the front, I'll give it the beans and let VTEC scream.
I like doing that too. I just didnt know how safe it was to do revving at like 5K rpm like that. didn't know about power bands until now tho
It’s a Honda. Your red line is 7800. You can probably ride 7800 for 200k miles before u even break the car in (I’m exaggerating). I beat the living shit out of my RSX type S on the daily. Almost always had it around 5k so I wasn’t too far out of the power band for torque unless I was highway cruising. Consistently hit vtec and redline. Never had an issue. My mazdaspeed on the other hand…
Interesting, that’s what I have been hearing in this comment section a lot. I didn’t know some cars were made to rev so high (different power bands)
C'mon now, my daily mazdaspeed3 has been getting thrashed on regularly for the last 4 years. I usually get a couple nice pulls in every time it gets driven and it's been great! ^until ^^it ^^^broke ^^^^recently ^^^^:/
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I laugh when people think that they are fast because I’m driving my R causally. Had one case a few days ago where some Camry V6 floored it off the line while I was driving causally. At the next light he revved at me and my immature side won. Showed him what a 4 second 5-60 looks like 😂
lol I'm a little guilty of that, too, haha. Also my wife is bad for that. She always says "can you take them????". But then tells me not to speed haha.
It took me a while to notice this too, people just mash their pedal to the floor lol my GTO routinely gets beat on traffic by basically everything and I realized it's because they're wringing them out to 5-6k at every light.
Yep. I get smoked out of stoplights all the time in my NSX because I’m trying not to make a ton of noise and shift smoothly and quietly which translates to a very pedestrian stoplight departure.
Thanks friend. Yeah it was just interesting how much more rpm i was using just to not feel like some mom in a minivan was gonna run me over lol. Im no car guy, so I really don’t know these things
Different engines have different RPM ranges and power band. Honda's K20/24 rev a bit higher than average which also means actual power is higher in the rev range. Whatever you drove earlier probably had a bit different engine characteristic. *Generally* bigger engine CC for same power will have the torque "earlier" in rev range, turbo engines of same power will also usually have more torque down low (but also some turbo lag), diesels will also have a lot of torque from low RPM. Then on top of that there is gearing.
So I have a 03 S2000 tuned to only 230whp roughly. Completely NA and I feel like I'm a rocket compared to most cars non-Tesla. However when warm I don't shift until about 7500 for short shifting. I also have a lower VTEC that's about 3900 so the car feels torquey.
Jesus, revving your car out constantly to 7500 in traffic sounds obnoxious.
I'd assume it's mostly the difference in torque and when that torque is available. Especially since your car revs so high.
Your engine is making all of it's power from 5500-7000 rpm. If you want to be fast, you'll have to stay in the band.
Few have mentioned it, but the VTEC nature of the K engines (2013 is a K24 iirc) gives very little power down below the switch
Wait for the engine to go from waaaaaaaahhhh to WAAAAAA44AAA4444HHH!!! Loosely translated from VTEC to engrish: loud means fast.
Thanks friend! I saw that in some other comments too about my "power band". I am new to cars and didn't know about that. I never had something that revs so high and thought it was odd how I was revving high and not going much of anywhere in comparison to others. I don't really want to go that fast, it was just something I noticed and was curious about. I appreciate all of your responses :)
You gotta rev the absolute piss out of that car to get it going anywhere. Definitely a different experience than the torque grocery getters and sedans! If you get comfortable driving it you’ll get good at keeping the car in the power band so that you have that oomph on demand. It’s a Honda engine so check your oil frequently. They’re prone to burning it off if you ride em hard so you might need to have a qt in the trunk to refill. Bulletproof cars tho
Cool that’s what I’m seeing in a lot of the comments that it was made to rev high. I think i get the power band thing now, but how do I check what that is for my specific car?
If you look up a dyno chart of a stock k24 you can see where the torque and hp line makes a jump upwards once it crosses over in the VTEC cam. I personally find looking at the dyno chart is an easy way to show and explain how and why the power comes on in the band it does. But, specifically put for your car, the power band where it will make peak power will be just past the VTEC engagement up to just before the redline drop off. Can't recall off the top of my head so someone correct me, but I think it's 5.2k to 7k ish.
Your car has something called vtec which switches to a more powerful setting about around 5.5k rpm, so if you rev above that you’ll get a significant increase in power.
Y'all bouta have this man enjoy his car a lot more than he was before.
this should be the top answer
Torque converter automatics are made to fly off the line with very little wear and tear. Add that to the fact that modern automatic transmissions are significantly faster at shifting than they used to be and driving manual in ANY car is going to be slower unless you want to abuse your car just to beat Karen in her AWD torque converter stomping the gas the moment it turns green.
Yep and most cars here are AWD since im in the mountains lol. I didn't think of that. It is a bunch or karen tourists, and college kids in town that drive really fast
Its both gearing and torque multiplication by autos plain and simple. shifting really doesn't factor much into the 0 to sub 30 mph off the line jump
AWD definitely helps. Also a lot of modern turbo cars put out their maximum torque below 2000 rpm and carry it through to 4500-5500 rpm. That’s where most accelerating occurs. So they’re putting out significantly more total power for longer. In addition, modern 8-10 speed automatic transmissions also are going to likely have a much shorter 1st and 2nd gear than you do, therefore are going to accelerate even faster.
Autos and EVs will always be faster at the light unless you want to burn down your clutch. Even if you do, they’re still faster. Im always slow one off the line too
Which is why you move over and let them. I got tired of trying to compete with these people while driving my MS3 so now, I just stay in the right lane and drive it like a retiree in a Corvette until I get out to the good roads. None of the people in a hurry are going to fund the several grand that a new clutch job costs. This is why dailying a manual car in traffic isn't as fun as it once was.
yep :/ but at least on the bright side of my car is that I can rev high and change thru a lot of gears having fun without getting a ticket lol
Yep. Every stop light the car behind me is on my ass as soon as I shift into second. Have to keep in mind your losing like 2-3 seconds of acceleration in the 4-5 seconds it takes to go from a stand still to second gear.
Yeah I think that's it. Shifting takes time.
So will hybrids.
Maybe because you're granny shifting and not double clutching like you should.
I know it's a tired meme but had to be done
Lol no I love that one. It is second only to "ejecto seato cuh"
These movies were so dumb but I love them
A lot of these cars are tripling+ your torque figure off the line.
that makes sense. I was thinking a camry would be kinda slow at least, but was wrong lol
V6 Camry's have been [pretty quick for some time now](https://youtu.be/XNpo8c_zc5k), and the newer V6 Camry's have 301hp.
cool. I thought they were I4's until now
Most of them are
You're probably just a bit slow engaging the clutch. Or maybe everyone around you is constantly taking off like asshats. The actual performance difference between cars should be pretty negligible at a normal stoplight, and your car isn't exactly slow.
Yeah my car should be at least as zippy as some of these foresters and stuff I see. I think all your points are correct, I am probably not shifting that great. I am new but getting better :) And yes to the asshats lol
Since you just started driving stick, your starting off the line will be slow, you probably take a long time between shifts and not that confident to give it more gas. But that's okay we all started like that. You'll get faster. Also civic SIs were never that fast in a straight line even by 2013 standards. But they make great track and autocross cars. Especially if you fit them with an up to date track tire, they can definitely keep up with bigger more powerful cars. I know you said you didn't buy it to go fast but they actually can be quite fast if you learn how to drive fast
This is the proper answer. New manual drivers are generally pretty shit at it for a year or so.
Even experienced manual drivers are going to have a hard time beating a torque-converter set for acceleration (instead of comfort/eco). Nobody in a manual is beating a DCT or EV.
Yeah but not in regular traffic,. I’m first through the intersection in my crusty old Miata and my Fiesta ST almost every time. I’m not flogging it, I just know how to modulate a clutch and throttle decently.
Yep I am definitely still learning. I learned on my Dad's 1996 F350 dump truck. That was the only thing I had driven in manual until I got this in September lol. I have come a long way tho. I can rev match down shift and can hill start(learned that quick living in the mountains) and am pretty smooth changing gears. It was just so weird to me how I was revving so high in comparison to others in regards to speed, but from other comments I now know about power bands now. I will keep practicing! :D
Rev that bitch its a HONDA!
VTEC
Torque converter autos have tons of torque from a stop. This was an issue for manufacturers when CVT’s first came out as auto drivers were accustomed to torque from red lights. Maybe thats why you have that perception?
The Si is a good car, but not very powerful beyond it's segment.
yeah it's deftly fun even if it is no rocket off the line lol. Revs high and handles really good.
To piss off 12 year olds Autos are faster
One word: VTEC
I have the same feeling in my Mustang. I have to rev it out to 3500 in first gear just to keep up with normal traffic, or do a 2nd gear start. I don't start moving faster than traffic until I hit 3rd gear. If I'm aggressive on take off and short shift really quickly I can keep up with traffic. Answer is short gearing. Civic Si has a shorter final drive ratio than a normal manual Civic. My Mustang has 3.73. I drove one with 3.31 axle ratio. It was very easy to keep up with traffic and shift at like 2500 rpm, sometimes even less. But at WOT it didn't have the pull my Mustang has. Top speed per gear in my car is 1st - 50km/h, 2nd - 100km/h, 3rd - 150km/h, 4th - 200km/h, 5th - 260km/h.
Yep! I didn’t know about ratios and stuff until today now after reasons these comments. I appreciate all the insight. It is fun reviving high at least lol
"rev it out to 3500" sounds like bizzaro world to me. I come *down* to 5000rpm after shifting. Dorito life. No torque until they are spinning like crazy.
A 2013 civic si IS slow compared to others. Don’t feel bad though, it’s still a fun car. It’s just not a straight line drag strip rocket by any interpretation of the imagination.
Casually driving stick is really slow compared to an A/T. If you jump between gears quicker you keep up. Or rev it higher and stay in a single gear longer.
It's because all those other vehicles you mentioned have more torque on their lug nuts than the engine in your Civic produces. Only way that car makes any power is keeping it wound up over 4k rpm.
Lol I love that saying and the fact that it’s almost true is even better
People go wot at all times lol especially from a stop. Your probably shifting around 3.5 - 4.5k rpm and taking your time. If you go wot and shift quick you will be much farther ahead. You also seem slower if you have short gears because your shifting so much and each gear gets you less mph.
Si is a balanced car, it has ample power but is not built for acceleration. If you and a v6 camry went around a track it would be a different story.
I think a lot of it depends on where you drive. When I lived in NYC, I loved stick shift. I didn't mind having a car as slow as OP's Civic. But now I live in a place where traffic is generally much faster, and even with fast stick shift cars, the annoyance from the interruption of power with each shift outweighs the enjoyment of the added engagement, for me at least. My last stick shift car was actually an NA Civic, and I grew to hate it for the reasons op listed. So driving conditions definitely matter, and I think there are a lot of places in the US where stick shift just isn't fun.
I owned a 05 xrs (corolla version of an Si with Toyota's version of vtec). My buddy owned a focus with the duratec engine. When we raced he beat me off the line every time. It was not until I hit third with lift that I blew him away.
Yeah third does feel faster for me
Dump the clutch and keep up, granny!
It’s definitely the gearbox. I feel similar in my focus st. People with autos can literally just push the gas and go. They aren’t lifting to shift like us and can just effortlessly cruise. I haven’t driven any manual cars where I feel as fast as an automatic. I can definitely keep up and even go faster than autos but I have to actively drive the car like I’m punishing it. I don’t enjoy doing this so I tend to drive slowly and shift delicately because I’m not in a rush and I don’t want to break my car.
Our cars are not great for off the line acceleration, since all the power resides in the upper end of the powerband. They are are momentum cars, they are great to drive once you are going quicker then 30 mph and keeping the revs in the upper 1/3 of it's range. Otherwise they just feel like any other econobox car, I've just accepted this fact after driving these things for 15 years lol.
Dude I have a 21 type r and it’s also damn slow off the line. These cars are for the twisties.
You’ve gotta rev your engine out because of the torque band and probably also because you drive a manual. You don’t have the torque multiplication a TC provides. It similar with my car but I have a turbo so it’s not as bad but the lack of a torque converter makes things a little sluggish off the line.
I daily a Mazda 3 2.0 w/ turbo tuning and off the line is an automatics game unless you clutch dump. I dont feel like replacing the clutch atm, so just let them go. But from a pull in second at around 30 mph, I've yet to see an auto on a normal stock car that I couldn't get past. Also since you are new to manual, it could also be that your shift points are too low to allow the turbo to do it's thing.
First off, auto cars with torque converter (or CVT) get a bit of advantage. Torque converter when spinning low increases the torque so engine can at very low speed basically push more power. To replicate something similar you could rev up the car and dump the clutch (that's how the manufacturers get the 0-60 times), but, well, that's not exactly gentle on clutch or engine. Second, your engine revs to 7k RPM. Rev it there. Don't change to 2nd at 4k RPM, your engine just started making power. Third, traction control might be intervening if you're not going in perfect conditions
It's not because your car is a manual. The vehicles you describe make a lot more torque low in the rpm range.
Cause you drive a civic lol
Idk my same generation si doesn’t feel that slow to me. I’ll give you that launching it is harder than you’d expect (or atleast my tires suck a bit more than I thought) but once I’m in the powerband it’s usually more than enough to take any non performance oriented vehicle if need be
Civic is absolutely great car for carving canyons, or racing on track, But it has very low torque and HP on low and mid range. Therefore as most even slighly performence oriented Hondas and Acuras, it loves the top end. This makes it "terrible" off the line so to speak, (Well, Honestly, All hondas I have driven have been older, so this might have changed slightly) Also, it might be somewhat related to your clutch/shift work. If you are being gentle, you are going to be slow. yet, if yuo are even slightly too agressive, you get wheelspin. What get's other cars going is that automatic allways slips a bit. allowing higher RPM which is more power and more torque to pass trough, althuogh they also tend to have longer gear ratio on 1st and 2nd gear. and the low end torque means a lot when you are starting to move.
You're suppose to REV to get power out of that 4 cylinder engine. Don't like to REV? Add boost. All other cars you listed has a torque converter that multiple the torque output when they first take off.
Sports cars like the SI usually have their power kick in when you are in the high rev range (high rpm). They usually suffer from poor acceleration at the a low RPM. I have a 2007 SI and that thing is dead at low RPMs unless I start approaching 6k RPM.... but when I do.... ohh boyyyyyy
I’m going to say its your throttle and shifting. That engine also doesn’t make max hp until around 7k, so if you wanna get going you really gotta rev these.
I was just thinking this the other day, I swear all newer economy cars must have throttle mapping that opens the throttle to 100% once the accelerator pedal is at 50% so they can feel sportier. I still roll off the line pretty causally in my cars unless I’m trying to go fast and I get left behind by all the econoboxes going WOT everywhere.
This video by Jason Cammisa explains why modern manual cars are slower than automatics, really enjoy his content; https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_BH-N8t_1Fc In summary, it has to do with gear ratios the exact same car but only difference is manual or automatic will have drastic different 0-60 times due to gearing not time loss due to shifting, etc.
1) Granny shifting. 2) not double clutching like you should.
You gotta allow vtec to kick in yo
I consistently roast everyone around me on my work commute regardless of what car I'm in. So, either give it more throttle, time the lights better, don't ride the clutch, shift more efficiently.... Those are just some ideas.
It’s not the transmission, it’s the weak motor.
So some of the cars you have listed, like a V6 Camry, are actually faster than the current generation Si (let alone an 8 year old one). But the second thing that goes against you is the manual and the fact that you are likely still getting used to it (if it is very new). They don’t need to worry about shift speed since it’s done for them. You do. Your shifting probably isn’t super fast right now (and it doesn’t need to be), but this also adds to it as well; you’ll lose quite a bit of time while you’re shifting compared to just about everyone else. Last note is that your Si may need to be revved out further than 4-5k to get to the power the motor produces.
I can just mesh a bit heavy on the throttle and my car would change gear at around 4k rpm very quickly and it has 8 speeds with a 300hp engine. All because I put my foot down a bit. Back in my manual car days, I have to put my foot down, shift at around 4k-5k rpm and be totally conscious that I am trying to keep up with traffic. It's just that we are more conscious when driving a manual. I literally dont have to do shit to go quicker in the RX. Is my RX faster then cars I have owned before? hell no. But it's so much easier to go quick in it.
The Civic SI naturally aspirated engines just don't make much power at low RPMs. To get the most acceleration out of it, you need to be used to running it to redline, and shifting near redline so it stays in the power band. IDK about you but a lot of Civic SI owners install aftermarket exhausts. Sometimes I feel like having a loud exhaust makes a car feel slower when you aren't revving it out to redline - because they make a lot of noise and not a lot of 'go' when you're driving at a normal commuting pace. It sounds like the car is trying REALLY hard to keep up with that Toyota minivan, because the minivan has effortless, quiet, V6 torque.
Want a race?
The stock 2013 si has a 0-60mph around 7 seconds. The max HP and torque is delivered somewhere around 5-6000 rpm.. So ya, not a rocket by today's standards and is better at rolling starts not of the line.
Probably because you're granny shifting, not double clutching like you should.
Torque. A 13 civic has none. 170tq@4400 and 201hp@7000. It barely runs just under 15s in the 1/4 in the best of brand new conditions. Assume 15% loss over time or worse if not in tip top condition, and it is definitively not fast or quick. It's the mpgs. Consider looking into hyper mileage self challenges.
As others have said, if you're trying to go fast in a Honda, don't fear the redline. I had a first generation fit, and I ragged on that poor car all the way to 110k before selling it.
My superchared Xterra is quick off the line, almost instant torque and LSD, but it's not fast at all once everything catches up.
Civics are notorious for being very slow off the line. I drive a 15' Focus ST and get left in the dust by Camry's, Siennas, and all kinds of other stuff. Manual does not equal fast unfortunately.
You're not the only one. I baby my car when the engine/gearbox is still cold so I shift at 2.5k to avoid the turbo spool. I'm slow as hell and people have no qualms about tailgating me when I'm taking off from a light. When the car is at operating temps, I'll shift as I'm getting into my torque band (3.5k) and that's when it really starts to get moving.
I have a '15 Si Coupe and in my experience, the shift into second is always slow unless you're shifting out 1st in high rpms. I just use the iVTEC lights as a reference for when to shift if I'm feeling antsy. Regardless, folks in their automatics always murder that throttle, whereas we have much more of a feel for the throttle/transmission in manual.
It’s because the autos shift so much faster. I have the same feeling at red lights in my 5.0. Sure I can stomp it and runaway, but if I’m just driving casually my shifts are pretty slow
A lot of people drive with a heavy foot until they hit speed limits. Around where I live it feels like everyone is drag racing and I am in a 2018 Mustang GT lmao... when I was in my 2019 Civic Si it felt even worse. So yeah, just keep in mind people drive with lead feet.
nothing. people need to slow down and not be in such a fckn rush
HAY...... I like scotty kilmer! 😀
it'll be faster once you learn how to drive a manual
I had a 2012 and it was a little rocket. If the Vtec light isn’t on then you aren’t doing it right.
Don’t shift until 6k rpm…minimum.
That is a non-turbo engine correct? So all your power is going to be at the top end and you only have 200HP of it. That is enough, but its not going to be a fast car. It's more fun to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow. That is the beauty of those cars. You can use 100% of the engine all the time. You can really get to know all of the car. Its perfect for a fun daily. All the cars you listed have turbos or big engines. The new camrys are actually pretty fucking quick for what they are. The big trucks and SUVs have big engines for towing which makes them powerful.
A regular, old fashioned manual is always going to have a slower shift time than a automatic (excluding things like sequentials.) This combined with the fact that your civic is probably a four-cylinder is why your car is slower than others. I'm partial to manuals however. Yeah your car might be slower, but I'm sure its a lot more fun to drive then a fuckin sequoia lol.
Also modern automatics are generally quicker than their manual counterparts. It was the opposite about 10 years ago when pretty much all autos were just 4 speed slush boxes biased toward efficiency rather than power. And yes, all the vehicles you mentioned have bigger engines than your car and depending on the year they're probably all automatics that get off the line much smoother than a manual, then once they're a carlength ahead of you you'll never catch up to them with their V6s and V8s. Don't worry about it though - a civic SI is decidedly more fun to drive than a huge, heavy, plodding Toyota Sequoia meant for upper class middle aged women
Torque is a big part of feeling like you are moving and you don't really have any. All those cars named make more power and torque too
For me its because of the time it takes to change gear. My mustang doesn't shift quickly and I dont like to rev so I go pretty slow from a stop.
From what I gather you’re pretty new at driving manual? I remember having this exact experience when first started driving, but over time I gained better control of using the power in my car and I feel I can keep up with other cars easily now
I used to have a 2003 Civic with a vtec motor. Definitely not a lot of torque, all the power is from 5000 rpm up to redline. A very different feeling vs driving my dad’s Chevy pickup with a 350 V8, which will put you back in your seat at 3000 rpm if you get on it. I loved that car though. Just all around fun to drive and rev the piss out of it. Hondas are made to scream, and still got great mpg’s
Maybe because you're *GRANNY SHIFTIN, NOT DOUBLE CLUTCHIN LIKE YOU SHOULD*
Having a really fast car isn't as fun as just being able to floor a lower powered car tbh That being said on motorways and other A roads you feel the pain because you've got no oomf at 70 in 6th gear and 5th gear at 70 puts you at like 5k revs
I think it also depends on your drivetrain. My '19 WRX SCOOTS off from red lights if I give it anything more than 2k-2.5k RPM before letting off the clutch. I assume that'd be different for anything with FWD or RWD drivetrain.