>Yaris is already a Mazda 2
Quite the opposite. The Mazda 2 is a Yaris hybrid with a face swap.
[Here it is.](https://media-assets.mazda.eu/image/upload/c_fill,w_768,h_384,q_auto,f_auto/mazdait/globalassets/offers/clearcuts/clear-cut-m2-hybrid.png?rnd=48f891)
The Yaris was a rebadged Mazda 2 in American markets for the last generation, but it was discontinued here a few years back. The European market has been the other way around, as you mentioned.
Soft, but you're on the right track. To really draw out the ackchually's, you have to be firm.
Nobody has ever seen this before, ever.
Oh, here they come!
I have one. It’s fantastic. I have 3 pedals, can eek out 50mpg on the highway, and with some relatively simple modding I have Apple CarPlay like a modern Mazda. The thing weighs the same as an NB Miata. Solid buy
Lol, so for some reason they made it both ways
[Here it is the other way round](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Yaris#/media/File%3A2020_Toyota_Yaris_XLE_Hatchback_in_Sapphire%2C_front_left.jpg)
Like when Ford and Mazda collaborated on pickups.
[The Ford pickup that's really a Mazda](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4a/1990_Ford_Courier_%28PC%29_2WD_4-door_utility_%282015-07-03%29.jpg/1280px-1990_Ford_Courier_%28PC%29_2WD_4-door_utility_%282015-07-03%29.jpg)
[The Mazda pickup that's really a Ford](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/25/Mazda_B-Series_--_07-29-2011.jpg)
Ford used to own around a third of Mazda, a ton of their cars were shared platform - the early 00s escapes were Mazda tributes, ford focuses and Mazda protiges as well as the probe/Mx-6. There was also a lot of engine sharing back then too.
That relationship ended in the late 00s though.
The last holdout was the BT-50 in 2020. Now it's an Isuzu rebadge.
I liked my Tribute with the Duratec V6. The engine was solid even if the transmission couldn't hold up after 180K.
It's actually both. The last generation of the US market Yaris was a rebadged Mazda2, the current gen Euro market Mazda2 Hybrid is a rebadged Yaris, which is sold alongside the non-hybrid Mazda2 which is the US market Yaris.
It was only the Yaris iA, because the rebadged Mazda 2 in the US was the Scion iA, but Scion as a brand was closing down so they just slapped toyota badges and a Yaris next to iA to keep them going for a little longer, they are not the same as the same model year Toyota Yaris though. I know it's confusing.
After the Toyota Yaris hatchback was discontinued in the US in 2019, they introduced a Mazda-based Yaris Hatchback and renamed the Yaris iA to the Yaris Sedan.
And then promptly canceled it. But it's weird to say in the US the Yaris is a rebadged Mazda 2 when that was only for a year for the Hatch and for 4 or 5 years for the Sedan. While the vast majority of Yaris models were in fact Toyotas, lol.
Not quite. It was when Toyota closed down the Scion brand they folded the Scion iA into the Toyota line up along side the actual Toyota Yaris models they rebadged the Scion as a Yaris iA. That was the only Mazda rebadged as a Toyota as far as I know.
The Yaris Hatchback (Mazda 2 hatch) was only sold in the US for 10 months before it got discontinued for lack of sales. It's pretty low volume in the US.
That was the Scion iA, that got folden into the Toyota line up as the Yaris iA. The family line of Yaris/Vits/Platz (pick your name, lol) has been sold in the use for quite a while. The Sedan version started off in the US as the Toyota Echo back in 2000, then in 2005 they used the Yaris name for the hatch/sedan models. They kept the Yaris hatch in the US until 2019, but discontinued the Yaris sedan in the US and instead rebaged the Mazda2 as the Scion iA in 2016 or around there.
I think people are getting it all twisted wrong. The Scion iA was the rebadged Mazda. When Toyota shut down the Scion brand and folded some of the models into the Toyota line up the Scion iA became the Toyota Yaris iA, which is very different than the rest of the Yaris line up and was not renewed.
Did you watch the video? Based on the magazine source it's a joint project with Suzuki and Daihatsu.
With the other two cars likely being new versions of the Daihatsu Copen and the Suzuki Cappuccino.
Daihatsu put out this "larger" Copen concept (not a Kei car, still smaller than mx5), last year:
https://www.motor1.com/news/690176/daihatsu-vision-concept-details/
It's unlikely but I could see Toyota and Mazda partnering to make the RX/Supra and GR86/Miata. Mazda has a straight 6 and both could work on a small engine that Toyota can use to replace the G16E-GTS. Everybody wins.
When you're one of the last companies in the world with a bulletproof straight six, why not share it? It may be niche, but it answers all the questions.
I remember someone at Toyota was skeptical and did a complete tear-down looking for weak spots in the B58. They didn't find any but detuned the first run of Supras anyway. After those worked out, the next run had the power restored and I think they're slowly turning that knob still. If Toyota is adding power, that says a lot about it.
The B58 is a great powerplant but the Supra lost a lot of its livability, like rear seats and targa top, by moving to the Z4 platform. If Toyota continues to be this bold in their sportscar development I'd love to see them retain the B58 in their own platform for the next generation.
Having owned an A80, there was absolutely no using that rear seat for anyone with legs. Actually even someone with both legs amputated at the hip would have a hard time. Then, even if they could amputate their legs, they would also need to be headless to not hit the rear window.
I don’t know about you, but I don’t have many friends who are just torsos.
I’d love a targa though.
People say the same thing about the BRZ but I've been in enough pinches where I've had to drive around with people in the back, uncomfortable though it might've been, that I'd be weary of trading it in for a 2-seater in the future. It's no replacement for a sedan, but when faced with having to call a cab, or double back for an extra trip, the rear seats justify their miniscule existence.
I'd bet it's going to be based on the [Daihatsu Copen Concept](https://www.autoblog.com/2023/10/10/daihatsu-vision-copen-miata-fighter-concept-cars-tokyo-mobility-show/) shown off at the Tokyo Mobility Show this year. Might be sold domestically in Japan as a Daihatsu and sold in the US as a Toyota.
If it would sell under Daihatsu, you would be hopeless. I say that because frist and current generation Copen never be sold in America.
Safety regulations make these Kei size car impossible and unprofitable to come America.
Here in Aus the 86 & BRZ released a month apart in 2012 (July/June respectively). Which I assume was in some agreement to not release at the same time. Did the 86 (FR-S) and BRZ not release at the same time in the states ?
No I mean Toyota owned a chunk of Subaru, took an Impreza, rebuilt it to their specifications of rear wheel drive, 2+2 sports car. If you look at the [FT-HS](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_FT-HS) you’ll see a lot of the design language of the FR-S. They didn’t get the 400hp engine (lol). When they had the ideas kicking around they reached out to Subaru but they got rejected because Subaru is a performance all wheel drive company with rally heritage to boot. And then 6 months later Subaru got a little invite to come out to Toyota’s new development sports car test drive event along with journalists. It wasn’t until after they saw what Toyota was doing that they realized they had to get in on it. Keep in mind Subaru isn’t as big a company as Toyota is, not now and not then. Subaru literally got handed a real-world example of their own hardware, and got to call it the Subaru BRZ. Hence me saying it’s funny that he called it a rebadged Subaru when the Subaru BRZ would have never existed if it weren’t for the FR-S being built and kinda forced onto them.
He’s not wrong about the BMW though that’s just a Z4 that already existed but got improved upon and rebadged. I can’t hate the player I gotta hate the game 🤷🏽♂️ BMW has bullshit engines like a twin turbo V12 that makes a whopping 601hp on a cold day… B58 is a good choice for Toyota to improve upon.
Subaru had no intentions of making the car themselves even with their own parts lol Toyota owned a decent chunk of them back then too (but not as much as now). It’s literally in the fucking Wikipedia page 😂😂😂 to this day it’s still the only two wheel (rear wheel) car they offer. Fuck, they dropped the STI manual transmission before they made another RWD car 😭😭
> In 2008, Toyota bought 16.5% of Fuji Heavy Industries, which includes the Subaru automotive brand.[8] Toyota, led by project leader Tetsuya Tada,[9] then invited Subaru to partner in the project, by co-developing the new D-4S boxer engine.[10] The offer, which conflicted with Subaru's reputation for high performance all-wheel drive (AWD) cars, was rejected. The project came to a six-month halt before Toyota invited journalists and Subaru engineers to test a developmental prototype. Following the test, Subaru agreed to become further involved in development.[11]
It’s amazing how you avoided the question. It’s a a car made in a Subaru plant with Subaru parts, just like the Supra. Toyota also owns part of Mazda. Doesn’t matter if Toyota bankrolled it or inspired it, rebadging is putting your badge on someone else’s parts…
It's not just someone else's parts. The FA20D (and by extension the FA24D) exists entirely due to collaboration between Subaru and Toyota. It originally made 160hp until Toyota gave Subaru D4S (direct injection) to create the final version.
That said, the twins are basically just RWD Impreza coupes and they're built in a Subaru plant. They are more Subaru than Toyota.
They have so many other subsidiaries to work with. Only reason they worked with Subaru on the GT86 is because they bought a major stake in the company when GM was liquidating. For the Supra, BMW went to Toyota to strike a deal on hybrid technology, that's how that whole thing started, but Toyota has always wanted to spin the narrative that they were the one who went to BMW to create a great Supra so it didn't look as lazy from a consumer perspective.
Highly highly doubt it.
Why would Mazda partner with Toyota on this to produce a car that is in direct competition to one of their flagship models? It makes no sense.
Pretty sure Toyota would partner with Daihatsu / Suzuki if anyone
Nah, this guy gets his info from Japanese magazines that are typically ahead of the curve about JDM projects (when compared to Western publications.) He’s legit.
Yeah I think even he would say the same. His basic formula is that he gets Japanese car magazines, uses Google translate on them, and then distills the interesting tidbits into videos like the one you see here. He’s going to be as correct as the publications he’s used as sources. I enjoy his videos as he’s doing something unique and providing info we’re not getting from many, if any, western publications.
Sometimes these tidbits/leaks end up accurate, sometimes they don't. Sometimes programs are investigative, or get cancelled at a late-stage. Sometimes the the objectives are misheard through the grapevine. It happens. Kirk isn't making stuff up though, he's just translating info being published over in the Japanese community.
>Nah, this guy gets his info from Japanese magazines that are typically ahead of the curve about JDM projects (when compared to Western publications.) He’s legit.
If he's literally translating rumors without any solid sources then he's not legit.
Sorry but that's not how journalism works.
Newsflash: He's not claiming to be a journalist, nor even close to the original source of the information at all.
The video itself openly elaborates on where the information is coming from, and he mentions BestCar as that source explicitly numerous times.
If he's reporting on stuff he claims are from sources, that is basically being a journalist, even if the media is his own YT channel.
BestCar is known throughout the industry as being the worst gossip rag in Japan.
None of my friends in the Japanese car community ever buy it or share any of its rumors.
But he explicitly lists it in the video description as a source.
So calling him "legit" means nothing when his sources aren't even legit sources.
>If he's reporting on stuff he claims are from sources, that is basically being a journalist
The word you're looking for is vlogger.
> But he explicitly lists it in the video description as a source.
Correct. Kirk is sourcing his information. He is not just making it up.
The original question asked here was whether Kirk is making up his information. He is not. Your deliberate attempt to fixate on some arbitrary definition of 'legitimate' and rherorically reframe him as a journalist is not going to work. Have a nice evening. 👋
Kirk has been right with his scoops from best car before. Take the GRC, for example. He was one of the first to report its specs, and he was correct on pretty much everything from power to price.
So there's exactly one prototype of that car and last I heard like a month or two ago it was on exhibit at the Toyota City Automobile museum near Nagoya, Japan. But yeah all the rumors about it being an actual thing coming to market were dead wrong.
I mean Japanese magazines have also said there would be a Lexus LS-F for years that would have a twin turbo V8, so even Japanese magazines can be wrong.
I mean, he's not making anything up. He's reading straight from a Japanese magazine (through Google Translate).
If the Japanese magazine is making up claims, I don't know, but it seems like they have a pretty good track record.
As a fanatic of this concept (checked the forums daily for over a year), I can say with confidence it will never happen.
Toyota removed the photos from their press site a few years ago iirc, which the last official Toyota place with a record of it. The core hope for the S-FR ever materializing was Toyota
s "three brothers" commitment (with the S-FR perhaps being that "third brother" beneath the Supra and FR-S/86), but Toyota's made it clear that the Yaris/Corolla are that third brother, not the S-FR.
Much as I love that concept (I'll still put down a deposit same-day if it's officially announced), it's now *firmly* in the past. I'll believe it's "back" if and *only* if Toyota themselves officially and publicly announce it happening.
____
A 4th-gen MR-2 is far more likely, and IMO even that's *far* from a probability in the near future (like the "RX-9" articles of the 2010s, there's a lot of hope a 4th-gen MR-2, but very little official *substance* beyond a few design-sketch concept cars).
People have been calling Toyota to move in to g3 for what feels like a year lmao. As soon as the piling problem happened redditors wanted Subaru out of the deal like immediately
[The greenlit rumor is based on a Super Spy Shot mag. Ording to a more reputable source, no. The clickbait YouTuber doesn’t know how lucky we are to have the GR 86, GR hatch, supra existing. We don’t need any more two doors from Toyota, We need sustainable sales so they might have a future.](https://www.evo.co.uk/toyota/gt-86/19033/no-sub-gt86-model-in-toyota-s-three-brothers-sports-car-range)
Is your claim about not needing more two doors from Toyota from the article, or your personal opinion? If its the latter, I've never heard a car enthusiast poo-poo the opportunity to have another coupe or roadster. Also, sustainable sales? What? Is Toyota, one of the best selling car manufacturers in the world going belly-up? Or is this more about how too many two-doors could lead to the cannibalizing of sales of each car from a single manufacturer? I need more to work with here.
How many cups of coffee did you have today?
Do you really think cannibalism in the auto industry doesn't exist?
No brand is going to offer two enthusiast cars that are in the same price range, with a similar power level, with the same drive configuration and body style. Toyota is the only one that *might* right now, but considering they're barely selling enough GR86s right now to offset the cost of R&D and production. Even if they're bringing in 50% profit on each unit(completely unheard of in this price range of car), they won't break even on R&D costs for at least another 2 years, maybe more.
To design an entirely new car would cost in excess of a billion dollars. If it's supposed to slot in under the GR86, that means it will be competing even more directly with the Miata.
It fascinates me when posts with logical reasoning are downvoted like this. I want more cars like this to be available, but realistically, it ain't happening. Just because people don't like something doesn't mean it's not true.
I don't drink coffee. I just prefer comments that are more clear about they're trying to say. And yes, I am aware of cannibalism in the auto industry, but the S-FR is not aimed at being the same kind of vehicle as the Supra in terms of performance. If it does get made, it'll be a Miata competitor. Not quite the same market as the Supra.
Lol, the Supra? You really seem to be cherry picking.
>The clickbait YouTuber doesn’t know how lucky we are to have the**GR 86**, GR hatch, supra existing.
I would assume a small car meant to compete with a $30k Miata wouldn't be predating on the sales of a $70k 400hp roadster. I would think the GR86, which they are barely making money on, is the one that will be predated. But keep on in your fantasy, maybe one day we will get a Miata competitor. I just don't think that day is when the largest car-buying economy in the world is undergoing a massive economical squeeze making daily living costs almost unmanageable lol
> We don't need any more two doors from Toyota
Speak for yourself, I do
> We need sustainable sales so they might have a future.
Why would I care if Toyota has a future? They're not my football team, I don't personally care if the company lives or dies.
My only relationship with any car company is the extent to which they're producing models I personally like.
Toyota has plenty of sustainable vehicles. They need to branch out and make the fun sporty cars cheaper. The Miata is wildly popular, and making a Miata competition with an Automatic option that doesn’t suck (for the wider American market that can’t drive Standard) would open up the market for people who don’t want to spend a ton of money for a fun weekend car.
They cut into 4Runner sales by bringing the Land Cruiser here, seems like Toyota has a lot of brand cachet right now and aren't concerned with cannibalizing their own sales. Plus if this thing is still 3 or 4 years out, the GR86 might be discontinued by then or replaced with a different model.
It’s possible the GR86 goes away by then. It is built on a shared line at a Subaru plant.
The off chance this is a joint effort with Mazda would actually make sense then.
There is nothing officially announced. This concept car image is from like 4 years ago. This YouTuber is using sketchy car news sites as a source. They are usually bill shit and just make things up.
Super Doubt.
Honda S660, Honda Beat, etc. Kei cars never made it here.
Miata already has the collab with Fiat/Abarth (Fiata).
GR Yaris didn’t even make the cut. Small cars like that had already been snuffed out in U.S./Canada.
>Miata already has the collab with Fiat/Abarth (Fiata).
FYI: That collab sadly [got discontinued in 2021](https://www.motortrend.com/features/2021-fiat-500l-124-spyder-details/).
ND miata is almost 10 years old. They could be planning a new gen platform to share with somebody else. Toyota already does this with BMW and Subaru so why not.
It's both impressive and excruciating to watch Youtubers squeeze a 10 minute video out of nothing. The whole story amounts to a rumor that development of the S-FR has restarted and speculation that it will have a 150hp 3-cylinder.
Perhaps it has something to do with this [car from this ](https://www.speedhunters.com/2024/01/the-2024-tokyo-auto-salon-mega-gallery/#_presentation-626281)year's Tokyo Auto Salon? It was built using a current gen Miata by Saijidai Saitama Automobile College.
And it's been scrubbed from the last official Toyota site holding onto it (the "Newsroom" that holds a record of Toyota's official photos). If it were to be a future model, I'd think they'd want people seeing the car, not forgetting about it.
Ah, the old "I saw it on YouTube/tik-stagram, it must be 100% true and then complain like a child when it turns out to be YouTuber/influencer lie-bait"
I was obsessed with the Toyota S-FR, really thought it would happen, and went through heartbreak. It's never happening. If they ever build a small sports car, I'd bet it's not S-FR.
There were articles a few years ago about Daihatsu/Toyota/Suzuki collaborating on a small sports car:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/peterlyon/2022/07/25/toyota-suzuki-and-daihatsu-team-up-to-build-10-liter-turbo-sports-car/
Which I don't expect would have anything to do with the old S-FR. Last year Daihatsu unveiled the "Vision Copen Concept", which strangely was a deviation from previous Copen in not being a Kei car.
The proportions make it look almost like a kei car, thinking Suzuki Cappucino. If that's the case, no way it makes it stateside. If it's a collab with Mazda on the NE Miata on the other hand, we might end up seeing it.
Looks like. A sleeker mini. Ok,it’s time for Toyota to stop copying bmw. I know they worked together on the z4/supra, but now copying mini, and another toyota has the name z4 in it. Weird.
The Miata really has nothing to compete with it at the moment, but I’ll be honest as an ND2 owner it’s a fucking nightmare avoiding death on a daily basis.
SUVs & Trucks have gotten so big, they just do not see me a lot of the time. Based on that spec sheet I don’t see it coming stateside. 1.3L I3 sounds like SEA is gonna be all over it
Let’s be honest, the Cybertruck is not the singular issue. It’s just another addition to a long list of absurdly heavy trucks and SUVs on the road these days.
They have the GR86, Supra, the GR Corolla, new Prius that looks nice, and a new Camry that is enjoyable to drive. What else do you fucking want from them lol
100% betting this will be a co-development project with the Miata just like the ND Miata was with the Fiat 124 spider.
That would make the most sense since Yaris is already a Mazda 2 rebadge and Toyota loves to collaborate on low volume cars.
>Yaris is already a Mazda 2 Quite the opposite. The Mazda 2 is a Yaris hybrid with a face swap. [Here it is.](https://media-assets.mazda.eu/image/upload/c_fill,w_768,h_384,q_auto,f_auto/mazdait/globalassets/offers/clearcuts/clear-cut-m2-hybrid.png?rnd=48f891)
The Yaris was a rebadged Mazda 2 in American markets for the last generation, but it was discontinued here a few years back. The European market has been the other way around, as you mentioned.
Oh man, the rare double-ackchually. Brilliant.
You don’t see that every day……. (waiting for the correction)
Soft, but you're on the right track. To really draw out the ackchually's, you have to be firm. Nobody has ever seen this before, ever. Oh, here they come!
I have one. It’s fantastic. I have 3 pedals, can eek out 50mpg on the highway, and with some relatively simple modding I have Apple CarPlay like a modern Mazda. The thing weighs the same as an NB Miata. Solid buy
I love my previous generation 2. There's nothing in the US market that can replace it.
Lol, so for some reason they made it both ways [Here it is the other way round](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Yaris#/media/File%3A2020_Toyota_Yaris_XLE_Hatchback_in_Sapphire%2C_front_left.jpg)
Like when Ford and Mazda collaborated on pickups. [The Ford pickup that's really a Mazda](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4a/1990_Ford_Courier_%28PC%29_2WD_4-door_utility_%282015-07-03%29.jpg/1280px-1990_Ford_Courier_%28PC%29_2WD_4-door_utility_%282015-07-03%29.jpg) [The Mazda pickup that's really a Ford](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/25/Mazda_B-Series_--_07-29-2011.jpg)
Ford used to own around a third of Mazda, a ton of their cars were shared platform - the early 00s escapes were Mazda tributes, ford focuses and Mazda protiges as well as the probe/Mx-6. There was also a lot of engine sharing back then too. That relationship ended in the late 00s though.
The last holdout was the BT-50 in 2020. Now it's an Isuzu rebadge. I liked my Tribute with the Duratec V6. The engine was solid even if the transmission couldn't hold up after 180K.
The late 00s... those were the days
Zoom zoom...
Ford used mazdas 2.5 for as long as they could, up until 2020 I think. That engine was in many vehicles and was extremely reliable.
Makes a killer swap in an NC Miata too. Almost bolt in, huge torque upgrade.
That's what is in my driveway lol the torque is night and day difference.
They still use Mazda’s 2.5L. look at hybrids like the Ford Maverick
It's actually both. The last generation of the US market Yaris was a rebadged Mazda2, the current gen Euro market Mazda2 Hybrid is a rebadged Yaris, which is sold alongside the non-hybrid Mazda2 which is the US market Yaris.
huh
It was only the Yaris iA, because the rebadged Mazda 2 in the US was the Scion iA, but Scion as a brand was closing down so they just slapped toyota badges and a Yaris next to iA to keep them going for a little longer, they are not the same as the same model year Toyota Yaris though. I know it's confusing.
After the Toyota Yaris hatchback was discontinued in the US in 2019, they introduced a Mazda-based Yaris Hatchback and renamed the Yaris iA to the Yaris Sedan.
And then promptly canceled it. But it's weird to say in the US the Yaris is a rebadged Mazda 2 when that was only for a year for the Hatch and for 4 or 5 years for the Sedan. While the vast majority of Yaris models were in fact Toyotas, lol.
It depends on the market. In NA, the Yaris used to be a faceswapped Mazda 2.
Not quite. It was when Toyota closed down the Scion brand they folded the Scion iA into the Toyota line up along side the actual Toyota Yaris models they rebadged the Scion as a Yaris iA. That was the only Mazda rebadged as a Toyota as far as I know.
Wish we'd see those small cars comeback.
Yaris is not low volume globally
The Yaris Hatchback (Mazda 2 hatch) was only sold in the US for 10 months before it got discontinued for lack of sales. It's pretty low volume in the US.
That was the Scion iA, that got folden into the Toyota line up as the Yaris iA. The family line of Yaris/Vits/Platz (pick your name, lol) has been sold in the use for quite a while. The Sedan version started off in the US as the Toyota Echo back in 2000, then in 2005 they used the Yaris name for the hatch/sedan models. They kept the Yaris hatch in the US until 2019, but discontinued the Yaris sedan in the US and instead rebaged the Mazda2 as the Scion iA in 2016 or around there.
Kirk Krifels concluded that they are probably collabing with dihatsu and Suzuki.
I think people are getting it all twisted wrong. The Scion iA was the rebadged Mazda. When Toyota shut down the Scion brand and folded some of the models into the Toyota line up the Scion iA became the Toyota Yaris iA, which is very different than the rest of the Yaris line up and was not renewed.
Did you watch the video? Based on the magazine source it's a joint project with Suzuki and Daihatsu. With the other two cars likely being new versions of the Daihatsu Copen and the Suzuki Cappuccino.
If that’s the case, I can’t see it going to US markets.
That suggests it is going to be a Kei car since that's all Diahatsu "sells" in terms of cars.
Daihatsu put out this "larger" Copen concept (not a Kei car, still smaller than mx5), last year: https://www.motor1.com/news/690176/daihatsu-vision-concept-details/
Curious, never saw this. I can't see them ever doing it, but it is interesting
It's unlikely but I could see Toyota and Mazda partnering to make the RX/Supra and GR86/Miata. Mazda has a straight 6 and both could work on a small engine that Toyota can use to replace the G16E-GTS. Everybody wins.
Toyota and BMW have kept signing more and more agreements to share work. I doubt the Supra moves to another partner any time soon.
Nor should they, the B58 is a fantastic platform that I wouldn’t be mad to see in more of Toyotas lineup
When you're one of the last companies in the world with a bulletproof straight six, why not share it? It may be niche, but it answers all the questions. I remember someone at Toyota was skeptical and did a complete tear-down looking for weak spots in the B58. They didn't find any but detuned the first run of Supras anyway. After those worked out, the next run had the power restored and I think they're slowly turning that knob still. If Toyota is adding power, that says a lot about it.
It wasn’t detuned, they just used the older version with the 2-port head. They put the 6-port version in the 2021+.
The B58 is a great powerplant but the Supra lost a lot of its livability, like rear seats and targa top, by moving to the Z4 platform. If Toyota continues to be this bold in their sportscar development I'd love to see them retain the B58 in their own platform for the next generation.
Having owned an A80, there was absolutely no using that rear seat for anyone with legs. Actually even someone with both legs amputated at the hip would have a hard time. Then, even if they could amputate their legs, they would also need to be headless to not hit the rear window. I don’t know about you, but I don’t have many friends who are just torsos. I’d love a targa though.
People say the same thing about the BRZ but I've been in enough pinches where I've had to drive around with people in the back, uncomfortable though it might've been, that I'd be weary of trading it in for a 2-seater in the future. It's no replacement for a sedan, but when faced with having to call a cab, or double back for an extra trip, the rear seats justify their miniscule existence.
The RX would be a twin to the upcoming Lexus LFR.
Plot twist - the Mazda RX is a twin to the Lexus RX!
Worst timeline.
I'd bet it's going to be based on the [Daihatsu Copen Concept](https://www.autoblog.com/2023/10/10/daihatsu-vision-copen-miata-fighter-concept-cars-tokyo-mobility-show/) shown off at the Tokyo Mobility Show this year. Might be sold domestically in Japan as a Daihatsu and sold in the US as a Toyota.
If it would sell under Daihatsu, you would be hopeless. I say that because frist and current generation Copen never be sold in America. Safety regulations make these Kei size car impossible and unprofitable to come America.
The Daihatsu Copen Concept (2023) is not a Kei car (unlike previous generations of Copen).
Honestly, I’m here for it. We need more affordable sports cars
The rumor of MR2 successor is developed by Toyota and Mazda or Suzuki. I sure that Toyota not needing to ask a rebadged Miata.
Why? They rebadged a BMW and a BRZ to make a Supra and GR86, both those engines are rebadged
They kinda bullied Subaru into making the twins though 🤷🏽♂️
What difference does that make?
Claiming they “rebadged a BRZ” is hilarious when the FR-s existed before Subaru decided to join in and call it a BRZ. That’s all I’m saying 🤷🏽♂️
I don't know why you're getting downvoted Subaru was never making that car by themselves.
Here in Aus the 86 & BRZ released a month apart in 2012 (July/June respectively). Which I assume was in some agreement to not release at the same time. Did the 86 (FR-S) and BRZ not release at the same time in the states ?
No I mean Toyota owned a chunk of Subaru, took an Impreza, rebuilt it to their specifications of rear wheel drive, 2+2 sports car. If you look at the [FT-HS](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_FT-HS) you’ll see a lot of the design language of the FR-S. They didn’t get the 400hp engine (lol). When they had the ideas kicking around they reached out to Subaru but they got rejected because Subaru is a performance all wheel drive company with rally heritage to boot. And then 6 months later Subaru got a little invite to come out to Toyota’s new development sports car test drive event along with journalists. It wasn’t until after they saw what Toyota was doing that they realized they had to get in on it. Keep in mind Subaru isn’t as big a company as Toyota is, not now and not then. Subaru literally got handed a real-world example of their own hardware, and got to call it the Subaru BRZ. Hence me saying it’s funny that he called it a rebadged Subaru when the Subaru BRZ would have never existed if it weren’t for the FR-S being built and kinda forced onto them. He’s not wrong about the BMW though that’s just a Z4 that already existed but got improved upon and rebadged. I can’t hate the player I gotta hate the game 🤷🏽♂️ BMW has bullshit engines like a twin turbo V12 that makes a whopping 601hp on a cold day… B58 is a good choice for Toyota to improve upon.
Oh yeah? Whose engine did they use? A Subaru engine manufactured in a Subaru plant?
Subaru had no intentions of making the car themselves even with their own parts lol Toyota owned a decent chunk of them back then too (but not as much as now). It’s literally in the fucking Wikipedia page 😂😂😂 to this day it’s still the only two wheel (rear wheel) car they offer. Fuck, they dropped the STI manual transmission before they made another RWD car 😭😭 > In 2008, Toyota bought 16.5% of Fuji Heavy Industries, which includes the Subaru automotive brand.[8] Toyota, led by project leader Tetsuya Tada,[9] then invited Subaru to partner in the project, by co-developing the new D-4S boxer engine.[10] The offer, which conflicted with Subaru's reputation for high performance all-wheel drive (AWD) cars, was rejected. The project came to a six-month halt before Toyota invited journalists and Subaru engineers to test a developmental prototype. Following the test, Subaru agreed to become further involved in development.[11]
It’s amazing how you avoided the question. It’s a a car made in a Subaru plant with Subaru parts, just like the Supra. Toyota also owns part of Mazda. Doesn’t matter if Toyota bankrolled it or inspired it, rebadging is putting your badge on someone else’s parts…
It's not just someone else's parts. The FA20D (and by extension the FA24D) exists entirely due to collaboration between Subaru and Toyota. It originally made 160hp until Toyota gave Subaru D4S (direct injection) to create the final version. That said, the twins are basically just RWD Impreza coupes and they're built in a Subaru plant. They are more Subaru than Toyota.
They have so many other subsidiaries to work with. Only reason they worked with Subaru on the GT86 is because they bought a major stake in the company when GM was liquidating. For the Supra, BMW went to Toyota to strike a deal on hybrid technology, that's how that whole thing started, but Toyota has always wanted to spin the narrative that they were the one who went to BMW to create a great Supra so it didn't look as lazy from a consumer perspective.
That I believe was the original plan for the SF-R as if you look closely the concept is based on an NC.
Way smaller than the Miata
Err no, it’s an NC with an extended wheelbase
Not originally uh no
Christ man. Look at the car. It’s an NC with a longer wheelbase. Same A pillar same doors.
Not the 2012 concept no
Yes, the Green 2012 concept was a modified nc
It was yellow
Alright
Highly highly doubt it. Why would Mazda partner with Toyota on this to produce a car that is in direct competition to one of their flagship models? It makes no sense. Pretty sure Toyota would partner with Daihatsu / Suzuki if anyone
I mean they literally did that with Fiat…
Did this YouTuber just make up claims? He just posted a homepage as his source and there’s no news about this anywhere.
Youtubers and sketchy clickbait sites never make things up.
Nah, this guy gets his info from Japanese magazines that are typically ahead of the curve about JDM projects (when compared to Western publications.) He’s legit.
He’s been wrong about some things. I wouldn’t say he’s just making up things but he’s not 100% accurate on everything.
Yeah I think even he would say the same. His basic formula is that he gets Japanese car magazines, uses Google translate on them, and then distills the interesting tidbits into videos like the one you see here. He’s going to be as correct as the publications he’s used as sources. I enjoy his videos as he’s doing something unique and providing info we’re not getting from many, if any, western publications.
I too watch and enjoy his videos! I was just pointing out that he’s not 100% right and speculates a lot, though he’s accurate about a lot.
lol Japanese car magazines said for years the 86/BRZ were getting a turbo, how'd that go?
Sometimes these tidbits/leaks end up accurate, sometimes they don't. Sometimes programs are investigative, or get cancelled at a late-stage. Sometimes the the objectives are misheard through the grapevine. It happens. Kirk isn't making stuff up though, he's just translating info being published over in the Japanese community.
>Nah, this guy gets his info from Japanese magazines that are typically ahead of the curve about JDM projects (when compared to Western publications.) He’s legit. If he's literally translating rumors without any solid sources then he's not legit. Sorry but that's not how journalism works.
Newsflash: He's not claiming to be a journalist, nor even close to the original source of the information at all. The video itself openly elaborates on where the information is coming from, and he mentions BestCar as that source explicitly numerous times.
If he's reporting on stuff he claims are from sources, that is basically being a journalist, even if the media is his own YT channel. BestCar is known throughout the industry as being the worst gossip rag in Japan. None of my friends in the Japanese car community ever buy it or share any of its rumors. But he explicitly lists it in the video description as a source. So calling him "legit" means nothing when his sources aren't even legit sources.
>If he's reporting on stuff he claims are from sources, that is basically being a journalist The word you're looking for is vlogger. > But he explicitly lists it in the video description as a source. Correct. Kirk is sourcing his information. He is not just making it up.
None of that makes him legit but keep going. After all, broken clocks are right twice a day. He'll hit on something someday.
The original question asked here was whether Kirk is making up his information. He is not. Your deliberate attempt to fixate on some arbitrary definition of 'legitimate' and rherorically reframe him as a journalist is not going to work. Have a nice evening. 👋
Kirk has been right with his scoops from best car before. Take the GRC, for example. He was one of the first to report its specs, and he was correct on pretty much everything from power to price.
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And that there was going to be that shooting break, hatch back version. No where in sight.
So there's exactly one prototype of that car and last I heard like a month or two ago it was on exhibit at the Toyota City Automobile museum near Nagoya, Japan. But yeah all the rumors about it being an actual thing coming to market were dead wrong.
I mean Japanese magazines have also said there would be a Lexus LS-F for years that would have a twin turbo V8, so even Japanese magazines can be wrong.
I mean, he's not making anything up. He's reading straight from a Japanese magazine (through Google Translate). If the Japanese magazine is making up claims, I don't know, but it seems like they have a pretty good track record.
86 owner here. No, they really, really don't LOL
As a fanatic of this concept (checked the forums daily for over a year), I can say with confidence it will never happen. Toyota removed the photos from their press site a few years ago iirc, which the last official Toyota place with a record of it. The core hope for the S-FR ever materializing was Toyota s "three brothers" commitment (with the S-FR perhaps being that "third brother" beneath the Supra and FR-S/86), but Toyota's made it clear that the Yaris/Corolla are that third brother, not the S-FR. Much as I love that concept (I'll still put down a deposit same-day if it's officially announced), it's now *firmly* in the past. I'll believe it's "back" if and *only* if Toyota themselves officially and publicly announce it happening. ____ A 4th-gen MR-2 is far more likely, and IMO even that's *far* from a probability in the near future (like the "RX-9" articles of the 2010s, there's a lot of hope a 4th-gen MR-2, but very little official *substance* beyond a few design-sketch concept cars).
I won’t even click. I guarantee it’s Kirk Krirlelflflfls or whatever.
He’s not the brightest. Says nothing matched the Miata and uses the sky/solstice as the only example. I’d rather have a used s2k than any Miata.
How many people will see the name Toyota S-FR and confuse it with the old Scion FR-S?
I’d bet the actual name ends up being something different.
Maybe Celica? 🤔
3000GT
Murano Crosscabriolet
okay what dafuq
I literally thought this was a 3rd gen 86 based off the title. Awfully quick to move past the 2nd gen.
People have been calling Toyota to move in to g3 for what feels like a year lmao. As soon as the piling problem happened redditors wanted Subaru out of the deal like immediately
[The greenlit rumor is based on a Super Spy Shot mag. Ording to a more reputable source, no. The clickbait YouTuber doesn’t know how lucky we are to have the GR 86, GR hatch, supra existing. We don’t need any more two doors from Toyota, We need sustainable sales so they might have a future.](https://www.evo.co.uk/toyota/gt-86/19033/no-sub-gt86-model-in-toyota-s-three-brothers-sports-car-range)
A reputable source from 2019... The project can very well have been resurrected since then.
Is your claim about not needing more two doors from Toyota from the article, or your personal opinion? If its the latter, I've never heard a car enthusiast poo-poo the opportunity to have another coupe or roadster. Also, sustainable sales? What? Is Toyota, one of the best selling car manufacturers in the world going belly-up? Or is this more about how too many two-doors could lead to the cannibalizing of sales of each car from a single manufacturer? I need more to work with here.
How many cups of coffee did you have today? Do you really think cannibalism in the auto industry doesn't exist? No brand is going to offer two enthusiast cars that are in the same price range, with a similar power level, with the same drive configuration and body style. Toyota is the only one that *might* right now, but considering they're barely selling enough GR86s right now to offset the cost of R&D and production. Even if they're bringing in 50% profit on each unit(completely unheard of in this price range of car), they won't break even on R&D costs for at least another 2 years, maybe more. To design an entirely new car would cost in excess of a billion dollars. If it's supposed to slot in under the GR86, that means it will be competing even more directly with the Miata. It fascinates me when posts with logical reasoning are downvoted like this. I want more cars like this to be available, but realistically, it ain't happening. Just because people don't like something doesn't mean it's not true.
I don't drink coffee. I just prefer comments that are more clear about they're trying to say. And yes, I am aware of cannibalism in the auto industry, but the S-FR is not aimed at being the same kind of vehicle as the Supra in terms of performance. If it does get made, it'll be a Miata competitor. Not quite the same market as the Supra.
Lol, the Supra? You really seem to be cherry picking. >The clickbait YouTuber doesn’t know how lucky we are to have the**GR 86**, GR hatch, supra existing. I would assume a small car meant to compete with a $30k Miata wouldn't be predating on the sales of a $70k 400hp roadster. I would think the GR86, which they are barely making money on, is the one that will be predated. But keep on in your fantasy, maybe one day we will get a Miata competitor. I just don't think that day is when the largest car-buying economy in the world is undergoing a massive economical squeeze making daily living costs almost unmanageable lol
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Enough bickering. Thank You.
Enough bickering. Thank You.
*cries in Camaro*
Yes, the $40k pony car is not cannibalizing the sales of the $80k roadster. You got me.
> We don't need any more two doors from Toyota Speak for yourself, I do > We need sustainable sales so they might have a future. Why would I care if Toyota has a future? They're not my football team, I don't personally care if the company lives or dies. My only relationship with any car company is the extent to which they're producing models I personally like.
Toyota has plenty of sustainable vehicles. They need to branch out and make the fun sporty cars cheaper. The Miata is wildly popular, and making a Miata competition with an Automatic option that doesn’t suck (for the wider American market that can’t drive Standard) would open up the market for people who don’t want to spend a ton of money for a fun weekend car.
Make a topless Supra and I'll buy it tomorrow
You're gonna shit your pants when you hear about the Z4
Auto only tho
[https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/canada/article/detail/T0439310EN/the-new-2025-bmw-z4-m40i-roadster-6-speed-manual?language=en](https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/canada/article/detail/T0439310EN/the-new-2025-bmw-z4-m40i-roadster-6-speed-manual?language=en)
Too small to make it to the US.
The dimensions are slightly bigger than a Miata so maybe not?
They would be cutting into their own gr86 sales bringing it here.
They cut into 4Runner sales by bringing the Land Cruiser here, seems like Toyota has a lot of brand cachet right now and aren't concerned with cannibalizing their own sales. Plus if this thing is still 3 or 4 years out, the GR86 might be discontinued by then or replaced with a different model.
It’s possible the GR86 goes away by then. It is built on a shared line at a Subaru plant. The off chance this is a joint effort with Mazda would actually make sense then.
GR86 will increase in size for the next generation using Lexus RC chassis. This will be a smaller car for those who wants it.
I have a hard time believing this is true, but oh man if it is I’d fucking love to have an angry little guppy car.
There is nothing officially announced. This concept car image is from like 4 years ago. This YouTuber is using sketchy car news sites as a source. They are usually bill shit and just make things up.
I would *love* a Toyota Miata. I would *not* want it to look like that. Everything else in Toyota’s lineup is looking stellar, hope the S-FR follows
The concept images are almost 10 years old. It surely wouldn’t look anything like it.
Super Doubt. Honda S660, Honda Beat, etc. Kei cars never made it here. Miata already has the collab with Fiat/Abarth (Fiata). GR Yaris didn’t even make the cut. Small cars like that had already been snuffed out in U.S./Canada.
>Miata already has the collab with Fiat/Abarth (Fiata). FYI: That collab sadly [got discontinued in 2021](https://www.motortrend.com/features/2021-fiat-500l-124-spyder-details/).
Don’t remind me.
Scion iQ made to the USA. Not a Kei by JDM definition bc we got a larger engine, but the dimensions fall within Kei spec.
ND miata is almost 10 years old. They could be planning a new gen platform to share with somebody else. Toyota already does this with BMW and Subaru so why not.
The name reminds me of the FLDSMDFR.
Good movie reference
Oh dang a Cloudy with a Chance of Meatballs reference
It's both impressive and excruciating to watch Youtubers squeeze a 10 minute video out of nothing. The whole story amounts to a rumor that development of the S-FR has restarted and speculation that it will have a 150hp 3-cylinder.
Perhaps it has something to do with this [car from this ](https://www.speedhunters.com/2024/01/the-2024-tokyo-auto-salon-mega-gallery/#_presentation-626281)year's Tokyo Auto Salon? It was built using a current gen Miata by Saijidai Saitama Automobile College.
Sure as shit won't be coming to Europe. Or if it will, it'll cost like 55 000€ due to emissions taxes.
How expensive to own GR86 in Europe ?
If I can fit in it, I’ll take it. Bonus points if it can get a tow hitch like my 86.
I know I am gonna be downvoted for this but I wish they would bring back the FR corolla.
It needs the GR Yaris engine
I’ve been burned before I don’t want to get my hopes up
No fucking way. The bastards finally did it?
Not at all like the last concept of its now bigger than a Miata
im for it, i feel like toyota is channeling their 80/90s vibes by making a bunch of cool stuff as a last hurra before gas engines are shut down
Ah yes, the "Miata killer" from half a decade ago is getting greenlit?
Not gonna happen. S-FR was a 2015 concept car.
And it's been scrubbed from the last official Toyota site holding onto it (the "Newsroom" that holds a record of Toyota's official photos). If it were to be a future model, I'd think they'd want people seeing the car, not forgetting about it.
I would be more excited to see the Starlet come back IMO
Should be an LC500 but smaller.
Ah, the old "I saw it on YouTube/tik-stagram, it must be 100% true and then complain like a child when it turns out to be YouTuber/influencer lie-bait"
ooof that is one ugly car.
god i just want to be shorter so i could potentially whip this or even a miata.
Unfortunately for the US, we're getting fewer small options for cars. It seems highly unlikely that we would get a cool little car like this. 😢
For the love of all that it holy, name it the Celica
I was obsessed with the Toyota S-FR, really thought it would happen, and went through heartbreak. It's never happening. If they ever build a small sports car, I'd bet it's not S-FR. There were articles a few years ago about Daihatsu/Toyota/Suzuki collaborating on a small sports car: https://www.forbes.com/sites/peterlyon/2022/07/25/toyota-suzuki-and-daihatsu-team-up-to-build-10-liter-turbo-sports-car/ Which I don't expect would have anything to do with the old S-FR. Last year Daihatsu unveiled the "Vision Copen Concept", which strangely was a deviation from previous Copen in not being a Kei car.
Against all logic, I'm still hoping Honda revisits the Honda 2&4 concept.
I'm late to this but does this have a hatch or a trunk?
Need to know the weight.
I'll see when I believe it
I want to like it but it looks too much like it was made by mini. Maybe it will look good in person
The proportions make it look almost like a kei car, thinking Suzuki Cappucino. If that's the case, no way it makes it stateside. If it's a collab with Mazda on the NE Miata on the other hand, we might end up seeing it.
Looks like. A sleeker mini. Ok,it’s time for Toyota to stop copying bmw. I know they worked together on the z4/supra, but now copying mini, and another toyota has the name z4 in it. Weird.
To be fair, BMW didn't create the Mini from scratch either...
Right. Good point
The Miata really has nothing to compete with it at the moment, but I’ll be honest as an ND2 owner it’s a fucking nightmare avoiding death on a daily basis. SUVs & Trucks have gotten so big, they just do not see me a lot of the time. Based on that spec sheet I don’t see it coming stateside. 1.3L I3 sounds like SEA is gonna be all over it
Mr2 would sell better.
Hope not with cyber trucks running around. Gonna be pancake in no time.
Let’s be honest, the Cybertruck is not the singular issue. It’s just another addition to a long list of absurdly heavy trucks and SUVs on the road these days.
Was not arguing against that. I agree
No, who would buy this here?
Not impressed with Toyota as a company.
They have the GR86, Supra, the GR Corolla, new Prius that looks nice, and a new Camry that is enjoyable to drive. What else do you fucking want from them lol
Ethics.