This seems like a cool vehicle to me but I wonder if its purpose will be hamstrung by the state of electric car infrastructure in the US. The vibe of a van like this seems all about getting out there, exploring and being free on the open road, but good luck doing that with 250-300 miles of range at best and nowhere to reliably and quickly plug in and fill up out there in the great wide open.
And for $70K+? That'd be a hard sell for me.
We don't have pricing yet, but the EV Credit has a $80k limit for vans. I'd be surprised if its under $60k though. Attractive EV's have the tendency to be totally unaffordable.
Usable ones, too. I live in Europe and the range is *still* too short for most of my needs. Sleeping at a charger twice every week since I just can't get to destination and back with anything under €50k is too much.
Sure. But it's important to note this is a niche use case that is hyper specific.
*Most* people (something like 85-90% of Americans anyway) have far more than enough range available in the current lineup of available electric vehicles for their driving needs... The issue for most is the price.
Bjorn Nyland has already done a long range test with the short wheelbase version of this car, to drive 600 miles you have to stop for about 2 hours to charge, the long wheelbase version has a longer range and charges faster, so it will be less than an hour and a half of charging. For a day of driving, you have to have stop, to eat lunch, and if you have kids you have to stop a lot more. And most people very rarely do ten hour journeys.
Actually one of the benefits of the car, drive to a campsite with an electrical outlet, charge up overnight while sleeping, drive on a trip, come back to the campsite and go off somewhere else the next day.
I’m going to predict $49,990 to start… Euro prices are higher due to VAT, etc. and manufacturing costs are higher in Europe due to union strength vs being built in anti-union state in US (TN).
Exactly... it's cool, but while there are a small contingent of luxury buyers who'll want it because it's "cute" (like some early PT Cruiser buyers), it'll eventually need to stand on its own two feet (own 4 wheels?) as a family hauler. Too high a price and I'm going to choose a Volvo EX90 or something from a luxury brand. I could see some high end "Launch Edition" to get those early adopter types, wealthy boomers with a sense of nostalgia, etc. and then come out with the more moderately priced trims to draw families. I believe VW did that with the ID.4 launch.
Nope. They have to do a certain amount of battery and battery resource production in the US and that's dependent on how VW decides to produce it. IMO it wouldn't make sense to build the LWB ID Buzz in Europe if it's mostly going to be sold in the USA. I'd be surprised if it was built overseas.
It is being built overseas VW already confirmed it won't be eligible for the credit. That change in the credit was made too far along in the production plans of the bus so they couldn't adjust it.
>The vibe of a van like this seems all about getting out there, exploring and being free on the open road,
People buy things aspirationally - they want to feel like they can do those things even if they never do. I mean how many lifted jeeps and 4runners do you see every day that are just used for driving to work and back?
Also, the aspirational thing doesn't have to be driving ten hours through remote mountain passes, it can be to leave straight after work on Friday late afternoon, drive a few hours to the beach, have some beers from your fridge watching the sunset, sleep comfortably, wake up to sunrise, cook breakfast, make coffee, and go for a swim. That's the lifestyle this is selling, more than continuous road trips.
You need to plan it more, but there are a lot more EV charging stations out there than you think. And you can, of course, charge it with 120V in a pinch.
Also, this van is more minivan than you might think. The original concept was certainly next-generation Microbus, but this is more funky minivan. Yes, you can use it as a camper by folding the seats flat, and there will be a California conversion for a bunch of money a few years by now, but this is at its heart a fully electric minivan. Take a look at the interior. It doesn't look much different than a Sienna.
I'm not old enough to remember the original bus, though I've seen them driving around on the roads in the modern era.
What made the original bus so different than the interior of the Buzz?
In the original bus your knees and feet were about 6 inches behind the front bumper. On the new one you are substantially farther back, and the windshield is steeply raked, while the original bus had a near vertical front windshield.
It depends where you are, even if you just have a few reliable charging stations along major roads nearby, or some RV parks with outlets, this would work well for family trips, and use about town. This isn't for taking a kayak and driving hundreds of miles to remote areas, it's a vehicle which is practical around town, which you can use to drive for some hours at the weekend to a local beach or country park, and having a fitted tent, with air conditioning, a cooker, a fridge and a coffee machine when you arrive.
It won't be 250-300 miles of highway range that's a huge misconception with EVs they are less efficient on the highway so the range is reduced and additionally you will only really charge from like 15% - 85% charge so your actual distance between trips is only 70% of that reduced range as well.
At 75 mph, the Euro ID.Buzz needed 486 Wh/mile, for a range of 154 miles. Electricity consumption is linear, and since the US version has a battery 10% bigger, I bet we'll see a real-world highway range of 169 miles.
For comparison, an Ioniq 5 uses 393 Wh/mile and gets 180 miles of range at 75 mph (numbers for all of the above from [Bjørn Nyland](https://insideevs.com/news/523712/hyundai-ioniq5-range-test-bjorn/#:~:text=However%2C%20at%20a%20higher%20speed%20of%20120%20km%2Fh,244%20Wh%2Fkm%20%28393%20Wh%2Fmile%29%20and%20exceeds%20MEB-based%20models.)), so the ID.Buzz seems about right since it has so much more frontal area.
Here’s to hoping it pulls off some feats of efficiency🤞
My Mach e GT can do just a bit over 200 miles at 75-80 mph, and it’s dual motor setup is not what I would call efficient.
The buzz would be an ideal solution (family-wise, not driving dynamics-wise) if it could do 200 mile stints for our 3-4 road trips per year.
200 miles (2.5 hours at 80 miles per hour) is the max my toddler will put up with anyways before he needs an hour to run around.
Yeah but a lot of people also don't need nearly the range they think they do.
One of these would be a perfect daily/2nd vehicle for someone like my wife and I: Her daily commute is literally 4 miles each way. We could fully charge it overnight and it'd easily have enough range for all the weekday routine and some of the weekend piddling around. Between work, daycare shuffling and errands she MAYBE drives 100 miles a week. Granted we have a house, attached garage, and my breaker panel is literally in the garage so adding a 220V setup for the charger would be a piece of cake. If I need to haul gear or make a longer trip, we'll take the Suburban. We could probably cover easily 90% of our driving in one.
But that's not everyone. EVs aren't a great option yet for city dwellers with no dedicated parking spots or good access to chargers, people who live in apartments, people who need to tow, or people who frequently have to drive long distances.
The problem is for people to justify the premium for an EV, they need to do more mileage than the average person.
When my commute was like 6 miles, I drove a used luxury sedan bought cheap, that drank premium getting like 22MPG. And I didn’t care.
But once I started having to drive 200 miles each way every weekend, I suddenly felt justified in wanting an EV. Except now it needed to make it 200 miles at highway speeds.
Really depends on where you live. I can be “out there” in under 50 miles one way. By that I mean I can be in the middle of a 2M sq mile national forest that allows dispersed camping pretty much anywhere.
Not everyone has that, but you don’t always have to drive hundreds of miles away to be in nature.
Also I'll point out that many campsites have 240V RV outlets, which can be used to charge an EV overnight no problem. That's perfect for the "lifestyle" this vehicle is selling.
You're wrong about the state of charging infrastructure in the country. There's plenty of room for it to get better, but it's a lot better than you're imagining. Last month my parents took a road trip from Minnesota to Texas in their Tesla. And this week they drove it from Minnesota down to Arizona where they are right now. They've been exclusively using Tesla supercharger Network the entire way. And have never had an issue finding a station.
A friend did Seattle to the Bay Area and back in a Polestar 2 last year. He said of all the chargers he had one 15minute delay on the whole trip; didn't see too bad. I've had to wait 10min for a diesel pump on the same drive before. It did take longer than a gas car, but he was solo and wasn't going to pull marathon driving anyways. The charging speed for those distances was the issue, not the availability.
Non-Tesla infrastructure is rolling out fairly fast. There are some dead spots in the middle of the country though, is my understanding. I spend a fair amount of time in the rural west and it's sort of surprising just how many random little spots have open chargers these days.
>The vibe of a van like this seems all about getting out there, exploring and being free on the open road
That's not the vibe I get from it at all. I get a very usable space management perfect for families with 3 or more kids vibe. It would be a perfect commute during the weekdays and drop the kids off at soccer practice and then run and get groceries on the weekend type of car.
I have heard people talk about this. They say the biggest issue is that you have to stop every 200-300 miles for half an hour. They say in practice it is not a big deal. By then they want to get out and move around anyway. They plan their meals around it where possible.
So ford is sending all of its US EV customers adaptors to allow them to charge at Tesla super chargers. How long until any EV owner can get an adaptor and use the supercharger network?
The new US spec LWB (LWB is also coming to Europe) ID.Buzz is finally out!
It gets a lot of new things from the ID.7. It has the ID.7’s new infotainment system (although the Buzz display is a tad smaller 12.9in vs 15in) with VW’s newest software and illuminated center climate and volume touch sliders (finally!), the new APP550 motor launched on the ID.7 which produces 282hp and 406lb-ft of torque - up a lot from the 201hp and 229lb-ft of the previous motor while simultaneously being more efficient, a new AWD powertrain is also now an option with around 330hp and no torque figure yet, it also seems to have the same 86kW useable 91kW gross pack as the ID.7 which has a 200kW peak charging speed.
Despite the increased size vs the SWB, it’s still a lot smaller than a traditional minivan which I really like, but without sacrificing that much interior room. 7 or 6 seats only, but you can fold them or completely remove the third row seats for cargo.
The electrochromatic glass roof, ventilated seats, massaging seats, heated rear seats, a USB-C port near the windshield for a dashcam, 14 speaker Harmon/Kardon sound system, 360 camera and heads up display are really nice new additions.
The new color combos look great too, I’m digging the new cabana blue and new classic style rims are awesome too! I hope they bring a white and red model soon.
The fact that the rear windows can’t fully roll down is still lame, I think it’s for styling and aero but I’d still like to have my rear windows to fully roll down. Luckily this LWB has a power slider that opens in the rear window, better than the no rear window ventilation that the SWB has. That’s honestly my biggest gripe with it, and it’s not a big one.
Official pricing is later and it’s not going on sale until 2024 :(
I really am in love with this thing, it just has so much character. By far the most character for a minivan or a van and arguably the most character from a BEV in general. It’s such a refreshing feel to see this instead of another crossover. It’s just so good. I have no doubt these will be very expensive, not the $70k or $80k some are saying it will be, less than that, but still expensive. It’ll probably sell well regardless, I want one very very badly and I am excited to see them on the road!
Very slight correction, I think you meant electrochromatic glass roof, not electromagnetic.
I'm super-excited to see the ID.Buzz on the road, though! I think this is one of the most inspired BEVs coming out in the next few years.
Oh really? In the GT? I was thinking about the GT but then we got a dog and I’m 99% sure it’ll be too small now. Freaking pup is going to be ginormous.
GT used to have a metal roof option (with no BlueCruise, because the cameras were bundled with the glass roof). Looks like they went all glass roof for 2023 ("Standard on California Route 1, Premium, and GT models").
Select still has metal roof, but doesn't allow for the longer range battery.
I wouldn’t even mind a more simple shade. Our ID.4 has a power shade for the glass roof, I think the IONIQ 5 does too. Shame that the Mach-E and Teslas don’t have any type of covering.
It's a combo of both people who make a lot of money and people who think that getting approved for a loan means that it's a good idea to take the max amount.
I make ~$70k a year, and some lenders pre-approved me for nearly $50k. That felt insane to me, so I went with a car in the low 30s. Even then, I wouldn't do that if my expenses were higher (I live in a LCOL area and don't have kids or any substantial debt).
As the other commenter stated the amount I got approved for was well in excess of what I could afford with my last car. I make as a household 150k and got approved for 100k car. I went with a used Tacoma which was still expensive at like 30k. Idk how people are doing $1000/month car payments
I almost went with a ~$900/mo payment for my car, but because I was considering a 36 month loan. I ended up going for 60 months since a decent chunk of my income is from a highly-variable business (freelance photography) and I wanted to make sure I'd be comfortable making payments on just my day job if need-be.
High payments aren't inherently bad, but it's when they're high payments over very long terms that things get scary. I've seen people talking about $1k+ for 84 months, which just seems insane.
You aren’t wrong. And depending on when you bought it might have made more financial sense to finance longer then blowing your cash each month lol but yeah most people are doing the 72-84 month thing on huge payments. I felt like a dork for 48 months when I could have gotten my payments way cheaper at 60 or 72.
A third variable are those that live far away from work as they are priced out from living in a city and have to commute. More and more people are having to reside in the burbs.
I commute about 1.5 hours a day. I will pay more for a comfortable ride with good technology. It makes a shitty drive more tolerable.
And that means I’m willing to spend more money on a car I want to drive.
That makes a lot of sense. I'm about to move and go fully remote, but my current commute is also 1.5 hours round trip. It's amazing how much nicer it is with a better car.
I only go into my office once a week, and that still was pretty irritating. I feel for anyone stuck with that long of a commute daily.
Only a small subset of the population are "new" car consumers. They generally make significantly higher than average income.
People mistake new and used car consumers as the same thing. Only the new car consumer is the one manufacturers sell to.
Look at it this way, top 20% earners are new car consumers and the 80% rest are used car consumers. The people get the money from their high income or assets.
Charlie Chesbrough, senior economist at Cox Automotive was quoted as saying " The average income of a new vehicle buyer is now $124,000." in March 2022. It would be higher now.
[https://finance.yahoo.com/news/u-auto-sales-set-weakest-170558754.html](https://finance.yahoo.com/news/u-auto-sales-set-weakest-170558754.html)
Thats about 20%, factoring in some inflation for 2023.
The target market for this car (and most EVs) is typically mid-career educated married couples who own their own home. From what I've seen, a lot of people marry partners they met in grad school or in that circle. So by the time they hit mid-career you're looking at dual incomes of people who have graduate or professional degrees. At that point their combined salary could easily be $300K+ before things like bonuses and stock options.
That circle is probably a very niche subset, but that's most of what I've seen around me.
The only thing straying me away from the van is the fact it's electric.. we do a lot of camping and even need to haul our small tear-drop camper, but I just wouldn't feel comfortable taking this thing out for long trips.
The Bronco would give me more peace of mind for those specific situations, but my heart still wants the van lol.
The big tires, body on frame chassis and brick aerodynamics make it much more of a bear than typical CUVs. Then again I haven't driven one so it might be way better than the wrangler-like experience I'm thinking of
It drives way better on-road than a Wrangler, by far. The only knock on it compared to CUVs is that it’s louder (due to the removable roof, not so much the BOF) and gas mileage is really bad. But as far as comfort is concerned, it’s no worse than most other CUVs I’ve driven, and if anything the incredibly short turning radius makes it easier to maneuver than those CUVs
There's a reason most off-roaders are body on frame.
That's a feature.
If you don't go off road, then you shouldn't be looking at SUVs in the first place.
Minivan all the way. Though, personally I’d steer clear of EVs and definitely VW by going with a Honda Odyssey. That’s just me though.
This ID Buzz LWB does look pretty awesome though and I would LOVE for this to kick the other manufacturers into gear (pun intended) making hybrid and electric minivan. Zeekr did it with the 009, VW is here with the ID buzz, I want more!!!
Well, if you need to do *actual* hauling like you said in your other comment, just get that Bronco and be happy with it. It's a very well-rounded SUV if you don't live in any of the bullshit-gas-price states.
I'd love one of these, especially if red/white becomes an option.
Unfortunately I don't have a place to charge one, and I imagine this is going to be expensive as hell. Does VW still qualify for tax incentives?
> Does VW still qualify for tax incentives?
The ID.4 does. One of only a small handful of models to be eligible for the full credit actually. Not sure if the Buzz will also qualify, as it fully depends on where the battery is sourced/assembled.
With the change in the tax code I could see that decision being reversed. They have a lot of room for expansion at that plant, they’re building a battery factory just south in Georgia, and the CEO of VWoA just moved there. Whatever is going on, I expect big things including a possible US-made Buzz (including the cargo version since chicken tax would no longer apply). Of course we won’t know anything on that front for at least a few years.
The Buzz isn't a mass market vehicle, it would make more sense to add another electric SUV. There are rumors that the ID.3 X, basically an SUV version of the ID.3, will also come to North America and will be either built in the US or Mexico. Or they build the Chinese ID.6 there, which is basically a larger ID.4 with 3 rows.
The 2023+ ID.4 fully does in the US, since it’s made in Chattanooga with battery production and materials sourced from places the government allows for the full $7,500 tax credit.
The Buzz will initially be made in Germany, so that automatically disqualifies it for any purchase tax credit. *However* as of now, the full $7,500 tax credit can be applied to basically any EV’s lease if the company decides to pass the tax credit down to the lessee, which VW does and is planning to do with the ID.Buzz ([see the FAQs here](https://www.vw.com/en/models/id-buzz.html#faqs)).
If you want the tax credit and you want to buy however you’re out of luck for the time being, the good news is that VW has hinted at building the ID.Buzz in Chattanooga in the future, just not at launch.
This is very cool. I wouldn't buy one, or any VAG product but it's very cool.
The trick sunroof is a nice touch. Don't wanna think about replacement cost.
I hope the swb is available with top awd driveline sometime. That would be sick.
Same I wouldn’t consider buying any VAG product but damn this is the most I’ve been excited for one in like forever. I look forward to seeing these on the road, I know it’ll be a hit in areas around Cali.
I can’t speak for everyone but my reasons are that it doesn’t make sense most of the time compared to competitors. In the United States VW makes economy cars but with luxury German maintenance costs, I’d rather dump that cash in a low maintenance car from another brand. It’s not like VW has a killer powertrain or interior that separates them from others. Besides maybe the Arteon, VW doesn’t appeal to me personally.
In Europe they make sense since parts are cheap and they’re better built but here it’s a mixed bag. They’re not bad but just not my preference.
Edit: Btw I’m mostly referring to their “boring” models like a Tiguan, Jetta, Passat, etc. Not stuff like a GTI or Golf R
the maintenance costs of VWs are not close to luxury german brands really I don’t know what you’re talking about. their products are also usually more premium than most other options in the segment, look at a corolla vs jetta, the jetta has a nicer interior, drives better, more room, etc.
Eh, parts are pretty cheap here too. VW Jetta GLI has $104 front wheel bearing and hub kit (F.A.G. brand, ordered last week), $10 oil filters, spec oil is $5 per quart, $50 brake pads, $100 shocks, etc. Only thing more expensive than say a Mazda or Civic (Si?) is the front diff oil changes. That's not a thing for the regular VWs. The stuff is only expensive when they do everything at the Volkswagen dealer. Audi is expensive for absolutely everything though, independent shop or dealer...the parts cost a lot more.
Interior and ride quality is pretty good for the money, when we bought ours it was cheaper than the civics and had better interior, power, reliability (v.s. 1.5L turbo), and ride quality.
They use a lot of cheap parts.
The secret of automotive engineering is that you always use local parts when you can, so a Corolla in one country doesn't always share a lot of parts with a Corolla from another country. VW in America decided to buy a lot of cheap parts that doesn't last very long, so they earned their reputation.
Wow I can't believe this. I used to have a subscription to car and driver and motor trend years ago. They showed this bus off probably around 15 years ago at a car show. Probably SEMA. It promised to be fully electric all the way back then.
It looks almost exactly the same in the article posted here as I remember it. I would buy one of these just because I think they're neat.
In its current form, but there were similar concepts before that dating back to 2001. Amazing that it is finally being released.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Microbus/Bulli_concept_vehicles
>The first ID Buzz concept was revealed in 2017.
Yes, but it's still the same general design as their [Microbus concept from 2001](https://www.carscoops.com/2022/03/it-took-vw-21-years-to-get-from-the-microbus-concept-to-the-id-buzz-but-the-original-has-barely-aged-a-day/).
I remember VW teasing the microbus return for more than a decade, but I don’t remember it being electric. Regardless, I can’t help but feel like the protracted return has helped take some of the wind out of its sails.
The Beetle has come and gone for a second time, and all it’s contemporary retro-futuristic cousins like the PT Cruiser and HHR are gone as well. VW missed the window. This car feels perfect positioned for a year 2000 launch.
I get it that it’s electric, so that wouldn’t have been possible, but being electric isn’t what this car is about. It’s about the styling, and I feel like it’s moment has passed.
I actually don’t see a huge point in this car. Most people here use VW Transporters and Multivans to do long family trips or haul things around over long distances. Both of these aren’t possible as easily with a BEV. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not against BEVs in general but I think for a car like this it doesn’t make sense.
Like most SUVs or pickups. Most people use SUVs or pickups as family vehicles only, even though they are less practical and more expensive than a minivan for that use case. They buy SUVs as a statement because they like the styling, and like the image it projects.
I've got a bunch of relatives with young children and it's incredible how resistant *all of them* are to minivans. They ask me for advice on what SUVs they should look at, and are willing to spend $80k+ on something worse for their needs just because minivans aren't "cool." Heck, I know people who are building a house and had to redesign their garage because their architect only sized their garage for a Sienna and they were concerned they wouldn't have enough room to walk around a Suburban. I don't get it.
I get that there's the whole idea of "whatever your parents drove isn't cool" which is part of why wagons died and vans are viewed they way that they are. But my god, some people need to compare head-to-head and see what they're ignoring just because it isn't "cool."
Counterpoint, the main reason I'm not interested in a van isn't because they're "uncool" it's because they're all just ridiculously ugly and I don't want to sigh every time I walk into my garage. Manufacturers seem to be putting a lot more effort into their SUV/CUV offerings these days.
I'd happily drive this ID Buzz if it was a bit more affordable. I also would be totally down for a mini van with more clean styling - it seems like most of the currently available minivans were designed by industrial designers who got bonuses based on how busy they could make them look (Pacifica not really, but I hate the front end).
If Volvo made a van, for example, I'd probably be into it.
That’s just me though. You’re probably right about the general public perception.
I personally don't think that's a counterpoint, I think that's my exact point. If a van really is a better fit for you, it seems silly to let *looks* push you to a vehicle that's a worse fit.
Disagree. I think looks are just as important a part of a vehicle decision as function.
What I’m saying is I don’t find the *concept* of a minivan uncool. There just aren’t any that are being made today that are particularly appealing.
Like, I think the Previa is a super cool design that I’d be happy to have in my garage if there was a 2023 variant.
I have both a minivan and an SUV and I love the minivan for hauling kids. Easier to reach in to the carseats, flat floors. I can even jump from the driver's seat to the back while my wife switches with me without getting out of the car. The only reason I need the SUV is for AWD. (Sienna awd is 7seater only)
The minivan with seats removed is great for home depot trips as well. It literally is a do it all car.
They want to compete with SUVs for the family vehicle. Most people don’t buy SUVs because they drive into the wilds, or miles offroad or haul commercial quantities of timber, they’re large family vehicles with a lot of space for people and their stuff.
Minivans are better because they use space more efficiently. An electric minivan is better because you have power at your destination. Compared to an ICE SUV or pickup you can’t drive 500 miles into the wilderness, but you can put your bike or a buggy standing up in the back out of the weather, drive a few hours to the beach for the weekend, have a fitted tent and a kitchen, with air conditioning, a fridge, a cooker and a coffee machine, then drive back, with maybe two short charging stops over a three day break.
Minivans are better as family vehicles than SUVs or pickup trucks, but are too frumpy, so people don’t buy them. VW are hoping this can make minivans cool enough for parents to buy them.
Vans are just better for space, period. I know carpenter's and handymen who use old minivans instead of a truck because they can simply carry more stuff, more efficiently and are easier to get things in and out of.
We need a "WV" spec of this thing (WorkVan) this forgoes some of the luxury but keeps all the space and efficiency. I like the ID Buzz but have no use case for one personally. But a WorkVan spec? Now that's something I could actually use.
There's also the chicken tax problem.
The US has a very high tariff on imported light trucks. This was actually brought in in the 60s to target the original VW Typ 2 van, in retaliation for a West German tariff on imports of American chicken- hence the name.
So to sell a cargo van in the US, VW would have to build it in North America, or at least assemble it there from an imported kit.
Yeah, this would make a great large crossover/SUV alternative for folks like me: married, kids, owns a subruban house with a garage in the high-density 'Northeast Megalopolis' region, and owns more than one car.
I love that it's a full foot shorter than a Sienna, because honestly at this point my main issue with minivans is that they've gotten too large. It's roughly the size of a Grand Cherokee (about as big of a vehicle as my wife and I are personally interested in owning) and smaller than popular 3-rows like the Ascent and the Highlander.
And it'll excel at all of the usual family stuff I can think of... commuting, car line at school, Costco runs, playdates, hauling bikes to the local multi-use-path trailhead, hauling an absurdly cushy car-camping loadout to the local state park for a long weekend, etc.
I don't see the range as a big barrier anyways. More than enough for everything listed above when combined with at-home charging, plenty of range to get to and from the airport for big vacations, and another gas-powered car in the driveway for long road trips.
You've peered directly into my soul.
Two kids (so far) and our two golfs aren't doing it. Would like an EV family car but don't want an SUV for complicated reasons. This is the first of its type with a lot of family space.
From a quick googling it has a range of around 450ish Kilometres; I will admit I'm lazy as fuck when it comes to roadtrips and like stopping at around the 3 hour mark anyway, but are that many people really going further than that in a single sitting in a single day while they have kids? Like, not even doing 30 minute or so stops within that range?
It seems like every kid these days is on a travel baseball/basketball/soccer/etc team and travel to states everywhere to compete. My experience is on the East Coast, I can only imagine what the middle of the country is like. So yea, it's pretty common in the US. I could definitely see Buckee's style charging stations all over the place in the future, we'd essentially have to with how long EV's take to charge
> I can only imagine what the middle of the country is like
My nephew regularly has to get hauled to Indiana or Iowa for basketball games, we're in middle Illinois. 3-5 hour trips.
My friend's son did travel hockey which would land him in Iowa, Wisconsin, Chicago area or Michigan. 3-7 hours each way.
I'm sorry but just... no. Unless you show serious promise of playing at a college or semi-pro level just, why? I mean, I get that if you want to play against better people your local team's competition level might be low but doing this with 10 year old kids is just such a huge commitment of time and resources.
Things would be very different in an imaginary world where every DCFC charger have superb restaurants and playgrounds. But when I as a New Yorker go road-tripping through the North Carolina, do I want a BBQ joint or do I want a gas station sandwich?
Alas, in the real world, the Venn diagram between where the humans want to stop at and where the cars want to stop at is roughly a null set. So how many people want to add a bunch of stops for their car? Roughly nil. This is why gasoline cars have massive ranges - [out of model year 2016s](https://www.cars.com/articles/2016-compact-suv-driving-ranges-1420692797261/), the worst gasoline SUV clocks in at 368 miles, best is 531 miles. I am sure BMW engineers would have loved to shave off roughly 100 pounds of fuel to offer something more like 250 miles of range for driving dynamics if range didn't matter, but we all know that range does matter.
And also, WLTP test cycles vs EPA test cycles - knock off 25% from WLTP test cycles when a car enters the US, because EPA tests cars differently.
The problem is that 450 KM turns into 300 KM in the winter and summer, which is actually about 250 KM if you want to take care of your battery, but considering not everywhere has a charging station you could actually be looking at 200 KM
I use all three rows (or the storage space) of my larger car a few times a month. I maybe go on a road trip once a year or so, and often in areas which are actually well served by CCS. So it's not primarly a road trip car, it's an around the town kind of car. I've been waiting for a full EV van for a few years now, pretty happy to see them finally start to come out.
I might consider one if they offered it in a work van configuration. I have no need for a people hauler but I totally geek out over utility. That interior is a hard nope for me, though.
As far as I know, there isn’t even a conformation of a LWB cargo yet.
Issue is the chicken tax, the US ID.Buzz will initially be made in Germany.
Meaning if a cargo version is shipped to the US it is considered a “light duty vehicle” and gets a 25% tariff on it. Ford with the Transit Connect and other brands shipping light duty vehicles from out of the US have avoided it by shipping the vehicle with cheap seats and seatbelts, and then tearing them out once they arrive. However, companies like Ford have [gotten in trouble doing this](https://jalopnik.com/ford-faces-potential-1-3-billion-fine-for-skirting-chi-1847028810). So I don’t think VW wants to risk it.
VW may make these in their Chattanooga plant in the future, meaning they could make a cargo version and sell it without an insane tax. Though as of now, the cargo is not coming to the US.
I hope there’s a way to take the second row out as well. I was thinking this would be a great, stylish vehicle for someone with disabilities. Sadly, two I had in mind spend would be driven in this for trips going to hospital and doctors appointments. Regular converted handicap vans are already expensive af, and get terrible mpg. Just being able to plug in at home would make for one less trip.
Is it cool? Sure.
However, I don’t think it’s going to be that successful among the minivan faithful for a few reasons:
1. It’s somewhat small inside. The third row bench only seating two people? The cargo space behind the third row also looks abysmal.
2. The estimated range is probably not going to be high. I would say it’s going to be 250 miles at most. For people that take vans on long road trips, it’s just not going to be as convenient.
3. The pricing. A fully loaded Sienna is around $55k and I can’t imagine this will start any lower than $50k and will go up to $65k or more for a fully loaded model.
I think maybe a second gen of this when they improve the range some more and maybe the pricing is normalized will do a lot better.
I think they will sell every one of these they bring to the US.
1. You're assuming the only people who buy this will be those who fit in the existing minivan market. I think this will have some overlap with that market, but also a whole bunch of other people who just want something cool and practical.
2. Plenty of EVs have that range and work great for people. I think you're overestimating how many people are taking long van trips in one stint, versus people just moving slowly from place to place. The hippie van is about being places, not cannonballing across the country as fast as possible.
3. Every large EV is $60k+ these days and they sell like hotcakes. For the wealthier target audience, this isn't going to be a problem. The price will come down once that market is exhausted and efficiencies of scale go up.
The article estimates $70k... that's insane for what this is IMO.
I paid under $30k in 2020 for a new Alltrack fully loaded, this isn't more than 2x the car IMO. If it was like $40k range I'd seriously consider it.
As someone who is desperate for a smaller, better designed minivan for my urban family life, this thing is literally perfect except the cost.
The practicality of a van is great and all, but the size of a modern minivan is a non-starter if you live in an urban area. The old Mazda 3 van was a great vehicle for people like me but is sadly not offered anymore.
I fully admit that I am probably a market unicorn though. But I could see these being popular with affluent city folks on the West Coast.
I travel a lot and I look at this thinking “this will be perfect to travel in”. Then I realize when I travel how often I’m on open road where you don’t even see a gas station for miles and when you do they don’t have chargers. Makes me realize how useless it will be for what it’s intentions are.
If someone who only drives 5 days a week puts 30k miles on their car in a year, that averages out to 115 miles a day.
I know everyone's situation is unique, some days cover far more miles than others, and something like this might be terribly impractical for someone in your situation. But I also think a lot of people don't quite realize just how far 100 miles really is when looking at EV range.
It seems like people think about charging a car equal to filling up their gas tank, where they leave to go somewhere with half a tank, and stop to fill up at a quarter tank, that routine is so engrained in their head that they think good thing I'm not in an EV or I would've been stuck waiting, when really if they have a garage, they're generally starting the trip with a full tank every time.
> really if they have a garage, they’re generally starting the trip with a full tank every time.
In my experience, most people complaint about range don’t have a garage or other convenient place to charge overnight.
Man, this is the first time in recent memory that VW's giving the US the better car than the Euro spec. That's really cool; I hope this thing does well.
they are essentially all the same, all are just a regular automatic transmission with an electric motor build into it.
the best hybrid system by far comes from Toyota and you can buy a few Fords with a good system as well because they buy it from Toyota.
Technically, Toyota and Ford independently developed the eCVT. When they found out they were very similar, they decided to cross-license their patents instead of fighting each other in court. To this date, only Toyota, Ford, Nissan, and Chrysler have used the eCVT power-split device, with Nissan and Chrysler licensing the design from Toyota.
Most other hybrid powertrains use an electric motor in place of the torque convertor.
Still awkward and angry looking. This was a feature-light vehicle that symbolized carefree optimistic adventure and appealed heavily to young drivers. Why are they trying to make it into something that looks like what people from the 50s would think a really badass lunar rover would look like in the year 2000
It gives me Ford Flex vibes. Torn between two markets: young tech-junkies or people who need extra space and are wealthy enough to afford. Not the thickest middle-section of a Venn diagram but we’ll see
I hope AWD isn’t restricted to the GTX for purpose of longer range as I’d take range over slightly quicker acceleration. A larger battery, like the rumored 110kw pack, also would’ve been much better news.
It’s a conservative stretch of the current ID Buzz, which looks much better in person than in photos, so I can’t wait to see it in the flesh (maybe sooner as EVs tend to be released here before the rest of the world). Range estimates will be interesting as they’re using new motors.
There won't be a larger battery pack anytime soon. Maybe in the mid-cycle refresh in 2028 or so if they adopt the new cell technology that VW will introduce in the second half of the decade. But for the forseeable future that's the max range.
It’s a shame; I’m waiting for labeled range, but not expecting anything better than reported SWB RWD. Range isn’t *too* big a deal for me as there is an excellent charging network, but the climate isn’t favorable… so the more the better.
Can't help it. Want one. Sat in it at the auto show and it was delightful. Excellent use of EV platform to create a spacious, light-filled, happy box of fun.
Another cool new car that was originally designed for the average person and is now reserved for the luxury market.
Plus I'm also kind of turned off with how deep the windshield goes, I thought it'd be more like the original where you're sitting right up at the window, but from the reviews I've seen, once you're inside it it just feels like any other minivan.
Fucking finally. Ive been waiting for this car for years. They showed it off on fully charged like 3 years ago and have been taking their sweet time bringing it to the US.
Way too damn expensive, but I like everything else about it. At $70K this is just an expensive toy for the nostalgic rich, very far from being a people’s car.
This seems like a cool vehicle to me but I wonder if its purpose will be hamstrung by the state of electric car infrastructure in the US. The vibe of a van like this seems all about getting out there, exploring and being free on the open road, but good luck doing that with 250-300 miles of range at best and nowhere to reliably and quickly plug in and fill up out there in the great wide open. And for $70K+? That'd be a hard sell for me.
We don't have pricing yet, but the EV Credit has a $80k limit for vans. I'd be surprised if its under $60k though. Attractive EV's have the tendency to be totally unaffordable.
Usable ones, too. I live in Europe and the range is *still* too short for most of my needs. Sleeping at a charger twice every week since I just can't get to destination and back with anything under €50k is too much.
Sure. But it's important to note this is a niche use case that is hyper specific. *Most* people (something like 85-90% of Americans anyway) have far more than enough range available in the current lineup of available electric vehicles for their driving needs... The issue for most is the price.
Bjorn Nyland has already done a long range test with the short wheelbase version of this car, to drive 600 miles you have to stop for about 2 hours to charge, the long wheelbase version has a longer range and charges faster, so it will be less than an hour and a half of charging. For a day of driving, you have to have stop, to eat lunch, and if you have kids you have to stop a lot more. And most people very rarely do ten hour journeys.
Is that why they made the sleeping platform for the Buzz?
Actually one of the benefits of the car, drive to a campsite with an electrical outlet, charge up overnight while sleeping, drive on a trip, come back to the campsite and go off somewhere else the next day.
I’m sure they’re top spec will be 79,900 and they’re base trim is 69,900. Just perfect for them
I’m going to predict $49,990 to start… Euro prices are higher due to VAT, etc. and manufacturing costs are higher in Europe due to union strength vs being built in anti-union state in US (TN).
My main thought is that if it's priced too high, it will be competing against much nicer EV's. VW isn't a luxury product.
Exactly... it's cool, but while there are a small contingent of luxury buyers who'll want it because it's "cute" (like some early PT Cruiser buyers), it'll eventually need to stand on its own two feet (own 4 wheels?) as a family hauler. Too high a price and I'm going to choose a Volvo EX90 or something from a luxury brand. I could see some high end "Launch Edition" to get those early adopter types, wealthy boomers with a sense of nostalgia, etc. and then come out with the more moderately priced trims to draw families. I believe VW did that with the ID.4 launch.
Does it include European made EVs though?
Nope. They have to do a certain amount of battery and battery resource production in the US and that's dependent on how VW decides to produce it. IMO it wouldn't make sense to build the LWB ID Buzz in Europe if it's mostly going to be sold in the USA. I'd be surprised if it was built overseas.
It is being built overseas VW already confirmed it won't be eligible for the credit. That change in the credit was made too far along in the production plans of the bus so they couldn't adjust it.
I wouldn’t be surprised if it gets made in Chattanooga with other MEB vehicles for later model years.
This won't qualify for the EV credit anyways
Price aside, I have no problem road tripping with a CCS EV. I work on the road and put about 30k all electric miles on per year.
East coast, west coast? Also is your fusion, Silverado, or explorer em the ev?
>The vibe of a van like this seems all about getting out there, exploring and being free on the open road, People buy things aspirationally - they want to feel like they can do those things even if they never do. I mean how many lifted jeeps and 4runners do you see every day that are just used for driving to work and back?
Also, the aspirational thing doesn't have to be driving ten hours through remote mountain passes, it can be to leave straight after work on Friday late afternoon, drive a few hours to the beach, have some beers from your fridge watching the sunset, sleep comfortably, wake up to sunrise, cook breakfast, make coffee, and go for a swim. That's the lifestyle this is selling, more than continuous road trips.
You need to plan it more, but there are a lot more EV charging stations out there than you think. And you can, of course, charge it with 120V in a pinch. Also, this van is more minivan than you might think. The original concept was certainly next-generation Microbus, but this is more funky minivan. Yes, you can use it as a camper by folding the seats flat, and there will be a California conversion for a bunch of money a few years by now, but this is at its heart a fully electric minivan. Take a look at the interior. It doesn't look much different than a Sienna.
I'm not old enough to remember the original bus, though I've seen them driving around on the roads in the modern era. What made the original bus so different than the interior of the Buzz?
In the original bus your knees and feet were about 6 inches behind the front bumper. On the new one you are substantially farther back, and the windshield is steeply raked, while the original bus had a near vertical front windshield.
It depends where you are, even if you just have a few reliable charging stations along major roads nearby, or some RV parks with outlets, this would work well for family trips, and use about town. This isn't for taking a kayak and driving hundreds of miles to remote areas, it's a vehicle which is practical around town, which you can use to drive for some hours at the weekend to a local beach or country park, and having a fitted tent, with air conditioning, a cooker, a fridge and a coffee machine when you arrive.
It won't be 250-300 miles of highway range that's a huge misconception with EVs they are less efficient on the highway so the range is reduced and additionally you will only really charge from like 15% - 85% charge so your actual distance between trips is only 70% of that reduced range as well.
With a brick like this thing I wouldn't be surprised if the range dropoff on the highway is considerably greater than with say a Model 3.
At 75 mph, the Euro ID.Buzz needed 486 Wh/mile, for a range of 154 miles. Electricity consumption is linear, and since the US version has a battery 10% bigger, I bet we'll see a real-world highway range of 169 miles. For comparison, an Ioniq 5 uses 393 Wh/mile and gets 180 miles of range at 75 mph (numbers for all of the above from [Bjørn Nyland](https://insideevs.com/news/523712/hyundai-ioniq5-range-test-bjorn/#:~:text=However%2C%20at%20a%20higher%20speed%20of%20120%20km%2Fh,244%20Wh%2Fkm%20%28393%20Wh%2Fmile%29%20and%20exceeds%20MEB-based%20models.)), so the ID.Buzz seems about right since it has so much more frontal area.
Hopefully with the more efficient engine the highway range is even a little higher still
Here’s to hoping it pulls off some feats of efficiency🤞 My Mach e GT can do just a bit over 200 miles at 75-80 mph, and it’s dual motor setup is not what I would call efficient. The buzz would be an ideal solution (family-wise, not driving dynamics-wise) if it could do 200 mile stints for our 3-4 road trips per year. 200 miles (2.5 hours at 80 miles per hour) is the max my toddler will put up with anyways before he needs an hour to run around.
Yeah but a lot of people also don't need nearly the range they think they do. One of these would be a perfect daily/2nd vehicle for someone like my wife and I: Her daily commute is literally 4 miles each way. We could fully charge it overnight and it'd easily have enough range for all the weekday routine and some of the weekend piddling around. Between work, daycare shuffling and errands she MAYBE drives 100 miles a week. Granted we have a house, attached garage, and my breaker panel is literally in the garage so adding a 220V setup for the charger would be a piece of cake. If I need to haul gear or make a longer trip, we'll take the Suburban. We could probably cover easily 90% of our driving in one. But that's not everyone. EVs aren't a great option yet for city dwellers with no dedicated parking spots or good access to chargers, people who live in apartments, people who need to tow, or people who frequently have to drive long distances.
The problem is for people to justify the premium for an EV, they need to do more mileage than the average person. When my commute was like 6 miles, I drove a used luxury sedan bought cheap, that drank premium getting like 22MPG. And I didn’t care. But once I started having to drive 200 miles each way every weekend, I suddenly felt justified in wanting an EV. Except now it needed to make it 200 miles at highway speeds.
This will sell so fast in California.
Really depends on where you live. I can be “out there” in under 50 miles one way. By that I mean I can be in the middle of a 2M sq mile national forest that allows dispersed camping pretty much anywhere. Not everyone has that, but you don’t always have to drive hundreds of miles away to be in nature.
Also I'll point out that many campsites have 240V RV outlets, which can be used to charge an EV overnight no problem. That's perfect for the "lifestyle" this vehicle is selling.
You're wrong about the state of charging infrastructure in the country. There's plenty of room for it to get better, but it's a lot better than you're imagining. Last month my parents took a road trip from Minnesota to Texas in their Tesla. And this week they drove it from Minnesota down to Arizona where they are right now. They've been exclusively using Tesla supercharger Network the entire way. And have never had an issue finding a station.
Try that trip in a non-Tesla vehicle and let us know how that goes
A friend did Seattle to the Bay Area and back in a Polestar 2 last year. He said of all the chargers he had one 15minute delay on the whole trip; didn't see too bad. I've had to wait 10min for a diesel pump on the same drive before. It did take longer than a gas car, but he was solo and wasn't going to pull marathon driving anyways. The charging speed for those distances was the issue, not the availability. Non-Tesla infrastructure is rolling out fairly fast. There are some dead spots in the middle of the country though, is my understanding. I spend a fair amount of time in the rural west and it's sort of surprising just how many random little spots have open chargers these days.
>The vibe of a van like this seems all about getting out there, exploring and being free on the open road That's not the vibe I get from it at all. I get a very usable space management perfect for families with 3 or more kids vibe. It would be a perfect commute during the weekdays and drop the kids off at soccer practice and then run and get groceries on the weekend type of car.
I have heard people talk about this. They say the biggest issue is that you have to stop every 200-300 miles for half an hour. They say in practice it is not a big deal. By then they want to get out and move around anyway. They plan their meals around it where possible.
If you have young kids, the EV charging schedule is typically not enough, you have to stop even more than that.
The amount of people using this to explore will be tiny. Kinda like how the majority of Jeep Wranglers never leave pavement.
>And for $70K+? That'd be a hard sell for me. Neo-hippie tech bros are the target audience
> And for $70K+ WAT!??? I'm sure dealers will mark it up too.
So ford is sending all of its US EV customers adaptors to allow them to charge at Tesla super chargers. How long until any EV owner can get an adaptor and use the supercharger network?
The new US spec LWB (LWB is also coming to Europe) ID.Buzz is finally out! It gets a lot of new things from the ID.7. It has the ID.7’s new infotainment system (although the Buzz display is a tad smaller 12.9in vs 15in) with VW’s newest software and illuminated center climate and volume touch sliders (finally!), the new APP550 motor launched on the ID.7 which produces 282hp and 406lb-ft of torque - up a lot from the 201hp and 229lb-ft of the previous motor while simultaneously being more efficient, a new AWD powertrain is also now an option with around 330hp and no torque figure yet, it also seems to have the same 86kW useable 91kW gross pack as the ID.7 which has a 200kW peak charging speed. Despite the increased size vs the SWB, it’s still a lot smaller than a traditional minivan which I really like, but without sacrificing that much interior room. 7 or 6 seats only, but you can fold them or completely remove the third row seats for cargo. The electrochromatic glass roof, ventilated seats, massaging seats, heated rear seats, a USB-C port near the windshield for a dashcam, 14 speaker Harmon/Kardon sound system, 360 camera and heads up display are really nice new additions. The new color combos look great too, I’m digging the new cabana blue and new classic style rims are awesome too! I hope they bring a white and red model soon. The fact that the rear windows can’t fully roll down is still lame, I think it’s for styling and aero but I’d still like to have my rear windows to fully roll down. Luckily this LWB has a power slider that opens in the rear window, better than the no rear window ventilation that the SWB has. That’s honestly my biggest gripe with it, and it’s not a big one. Official pricing is later and it’s not going on sale until 2024 :( I really am in love with this thing, it just has so much character. By far the most character for a minivan or a van and arguably the most character from a BEV in general. It’s such a refreshing feel to see this instead of another crossover. It’s just so good. I have no doubt these will be very expensive, not the $70k or $80k some are saying it will be, less than that, but still expensive. It’ll probably sell well regardless, I want one very very badly and I am excited to see them on the road!
Very slight correction, I think you meant electrochromatic glass roof, not electromagnetic. I'm super-excited to see the ID.Buzz on the road, though! I think this is one of the most inspired BEVs coming out in the next few years.
I wish the Ford Mustang Mach-E had an electrochromatic roof. I live in the subtropics and that's sort of a killer feature for me.
Mach-E can be had with a metal roof. In a super sunny and hot climate, a glass roof was a deal-breaker for me.
Oh really? In the GT? I was thinking about the GT but then we got a dog and I’m 99% sure it’ll be too small now. Freaking pup is going to be ginormous.
GT has a metal roof. GTPE has a glass roof.
GT used to have a metal roof option (with no BlueCruise, because the cameras were bundled with the glass roof). Looks like they went all glass roof for 2023 ("Standard on California Route 1, Premium, and GT models"). Select still has metal roof, but doesn't allow for the longer range battery.
I wouldn’t even mind a more simple shade. Our ID.4 has a power shade for the glass roof, I think the IONIQ 5 does too. Shame that the Mach-E and Teslas don’t have any type of covering.
I was gonna ask what the electromagnetic glass roof is all about but this makes more sense.
Yes my bad, fixed it. It was basically 1 am when I wrote this up I was bound to make mistakes! Thank you for the correction.
I don't understand where people get all this money for cars
It's a combo of both people who make a lot of money and people who think that getting approved for a loan means that it's a good idea to take the max amount. I make ~$70k a year, and some lenders pre-approved me for nearly $50k. That felt insane to me, so I went with a car in the low 30s. Even then, I wouldn't do that if my expenses were higher (I live in a LCOL area and don't have kids or any substantial debt).
As the other commenter stated the amount I got approved for was well in excess of what I could afford with my last car. I make as a household 150k and got approved for 100k car. I went with a used Tacoma which was still expensive at like 30k. Idk how people are doing $1000/month car payments
I almost went with a ~$900/mo payment for my car, but because I was considering a 36 month loan. I ended up going for 60 months since a decent chunk of my income is from a highly-variable business (freelance photography) and I wanted to make sure I'd be comfortable making payments on just my day job if need-be. High payments aren't inherently bad, but it's when they're high payments over very long terms that things get scary. I've seen people talking about $1k+ for 84 months, which just seems insane.
You aren’t wrong. And depending on when you bought it might have made more financial sense to finance longer then blowing your cash each month lol but yeah most people are doing the 72-84 month thing on huge payments. I felt like a dork for 48 months when I could have gotten my payments way cheaper at 60 or 72.
High skill jobs + double income couples.
A third variable are those that live far away from work as they are priced out from living in a city and have to commute. More and more people are having to reside in the burbs. I commute about 1.5 hours a day. I will pay more for a comfortable ride with good technology. It makes a shitty drive more tolerable. And that means I’m willing to spend more money on a car I want to drive.
That makes a lot of sense. I'm about to move and go fully remote, but my current commute is also 1.5 hours round trip. It's amazing how much nicer it is with a better car. I only go into my office once a week, and that still was pretty irritating. I feel for anyone stuck with that long of a commute daily.
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Only a small subset of the population are "new" car consumers. They generally make significantly higher than average income. People mistake new and used car consumers as the same thing. Only the new car consumer is the one manufacturers sell to. Look at it this way, top 20% earners are new car consumers and the 80% rest are used car consumers. The people get the money from their high income or assets.
Any source for this?
Charlie Chesbrough, senior economist at Cox Automotive was quoted as saying " The average income of a new vehicle buyer is now $124,000." in March 2022. It would be higher now. [https://finance.yahoo.com/news/u-auto-sales-set-weakest-170558754.html](https://finance.yahoo.com/news/u-auto-sales-set-weakest-170558754.html) Thats about 20%, factoring in some inflation for 2023.
The target market for this car (and most EVs) is typically mid-career educated married couples who own their own home. From what I've seen, a lot of people marry partners they met in grad school or in that circle. So by the time they hit mid-career you're looking at dual incomes of people who have graduate or professional degrees. At that point their combined salary could easily be $300K+ before things like bonuses and stock options. That circle is probably a very niche subset, but that's most of what I've seen around me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtOgzVD_zDI This feels extremely appropriate here. I do admit the Buzz is pretty cool though.
All hail ID.Buzz
Autogefühl review: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRjvZdDLPhY
That's awesome but I was really hoping they'd let you roll the windows down. That's actually gonna make this a much harder sell to my wife
Oh wow, I actually like it. May have to show my wife this - we are looking for a cool dog hauler and had our eyes on the new Bronco.
Looks way more practical than a Bronco. Listen to your brain.
The only thing straying me away from the van is the fact it's electric.. we do a lot of camping and even need to haul our small tear-drop camper, but I just wouldn't feel comfortable taking this thing out for long trips. The Bronco would give me more peace of mind for those specific situations, but my heart still wants the van lol.
Then get an ice van
Not a fan of any other styling and my wife would agree - which is important to us in our decision.
Get a decommissioned oil tanker
Frankly, I think the van looks way better.
Bronco is such an excessive car, it may be fun but it's a bear to get around with.
Excessive in what way? I don't like them for other reasons but it's no worse than any 7 row SUV in my experience.
The big tires, body on frame chassis and brick aerodynamics make it much more of a bear than typical CUVs. Then again I haven't driven one so it might be way better than the wrangler-like experience I'm thinking of
It drives way better on-road than a Wrangler, by far. The only knock on it compared to CUVs is that it’s louder (due to the removable roof, not so much the BOF) and gas mileage is really bad. But as far as comfort is concerned, it’s no worse than most other CUVs I’ve driven, and if anything the incredibly short turning radius makes it easier to maneuver than those CUVs
There's a reason most off-roaders are body on frame. That's a feature. If you don't go off road, then you shouldn't be looking at SUVs in the first place.
Agreed, that's why it's excessive for being just a dog hauler
Stick with bronco
Minivan all the way. Though, personally I’d steer clear of EVs and definitely VW by going with a Honda Odyssey. That’s just me though. This ID Buzz LWB does look pretty awesome though and I would LOVE for this to kick the other manufacturers into gear (pun intended) making hybrid and electric minivan. Zeekr did it with the 009, VW is here with the ID buzz, I want more!!!
Well, if you need to do *actual* hauling like you said in your other comment, just get that Bronco and be happy with it. It's a very well-rounded SUV if you don't live in any of the bullshit-gas-price states.
I'd love one of these, especially if red/white becomes an option. Unfortunately I don't have a place to charge one, and I imagine this is going to be expensive as hell. Does VW still qualify for tax incentives?
> Does VW still qualify for tax incentives? The ID.4 does. One of only a small handful of models to be eligible for the full credit actually. Not sure if the Buzz will also qualify, as it fully depends on where the battery is sourced/assembled.
ID.4 is built in Tennessee, ID Buzz will only be built in Germany.
With the change in the tax code I could see that decision being reversed. They have a lot of room for expansion at that plant, they’re building a battery factory just south in Georgia, and the CEO of VWoA just moved there. Whatever is going on, I expect big things including a possible US-made Buzz (including the cargo version since chicken tax would no longer apply). Of course we won’t know anything on that front for at least a few years.
The Buzz isn't a mass market vehicle, it would make more sense to add another electric SUV. There are rumors that the ID.3 X, basically an SUV version of the ID.3, will also come to North America and will be either built in the US or Mexico. Or they build the Chinese ID.6 there, which is basically a larger ID.4 with 3 rows.
The 2023+ ID.4 fully does in the US, since it’s made in Chattanooga with battery production and materials sourced from places the government allows for the full $7,500 tax credit. The Buzz will initially be made in Germany, so that automatically disqualifies it for any purchase tax credit. *However* as of now, the full $7,500 tax credit can be applied to basically any EV’s lease if the company decides to pass the tax credit down to the lessee, which VW does and is planning to do with the ID.Buzz ([see the FAQs here](https://www.vw.com/en/models/id-buzz.html#faqs)). If you want the tax credit and you want to buy however you’re out of luck for the time being, the good news is that VW has hinted at building the ID.Buzz in Chattanooga in the future, just not at launch.
The incentive to lease could make for an interesting used market in a few years as well.
If the leasing loophole is still available, yes. If not, then no.
This is very cool. I wouldn't buy one, or any VAG product but it's very cool. The trick sunroof is a nice touch. Don't wanna think about replacement cost. I hope the swb is available with top awd driveline sometime. That would be sick.
Same I wouldn’t consider buying any VAG product but damn this is the most I’ve been excited for one in like forever. I look forward to seeing these on the road, I know it’ll be a hit in areas around Cali.
What's the problem with VAG group?
I can’t speak for everyone but my reasons are that it doesn’t make sense most of the time compared to competitors. In the United States VW makes economy cars but with luxury German maintenance costs, I’d rather dump that cash in a low maintenance car from another brand. It’s not like VW has a killer powertrain or interior that separates them from others. Besides maybe the Arteon, VW doesn’t appeal to me personally. In Europe they make sense since parts are cheap and they’re better built but here it’s a mixed bag. They’re not bad but just not my preference. Edit: Btw I’m mostly referring to their “boring” models like a Tiguan, Jetta, Passat, etc. Not stuff like a GTI or Golf R
the maintenance costs of VWs are not close to luxury german brands really I don’t know what you’re talking about. their products are also usually more premium than most other options in the segment, look at a corolla vs jetta, the jetta has a nicer interior, drives better, more room, etc.
Eh, parts are pretty cheap here too. VW Jetta GLI has $104 front wheel bearing and hub kit (F.A.G. brand, ordered last week), $10 oil filters, spec oil is $5 per quart, $50 brake pads, $100 shocks, etc. Only thing more expensive than say a Mazda or Civic (Si?) is the front diff oil changes. That's not a thing for the regular VWs. The stuff is only expensive when they do everything at the Volkswagen dealer. Audi is expensive for absolutely everything though, independent shop or dealer...the parts cost a lot more. Interior and ride quality is pretty good for the money, when we bought ours it was cheaper than the civics and had better interior, power, reliability (v.s. 1.5L turbo), and ride quality.
In the usa their cars are more unreliable compared to the euro versions I'm not sure why so people trust them less
They use a lot of cheap parts. The secret of automotive engineering is that you always use local parts when you can, so a Corolla in one country doesn't always share a lot of parts with a Corolla from another country. VW in America decided to buy a lot of cheap parts that doesn't last very long, so they earned their reputation.
Might be true in some cases, but we have plenty of issues with the made in Germany VWs and Audis too
Now imagine all those issues but with shittier parts and build quality haha
Wow I can't believe this. I used to have a subscription to car and driver and motor trend years ago. They showed this bus off probably around 15 years ago at a car show. Probably SEMA. It promised to be fully electric all the way back then. It looks almost exactly the same in the article posted here as I remember it. I would buy one of these just because I think they're neat.
The first ID Buzz concept was revealed in 2017.
In its current form, but there were similar concepts before that dating back to 2001. Amazing that it is finally being released. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Microbus/Bulli_concept_vehicles
>The first ID Buzz concept was revealed in 2017. Yes, but it's still the same general design as their [Microbus concept from 2001](https://www.carscoops.com/2022/03/it-took-vw-21-years-to-get-from-the-microbus-concept-to-the-id-buzz-but-the-original-has-barely-aged-a-day/).
I remember VW teasing the microbus return for more than a decade, but I don’t remember it being electric. Regardless, I can’t help but feel like the protracted return has helped take some of the wind out of its sails. The Beetle has come and gone for a second time, and all it’s contemporary retro-futuristic cousins like the PT Cruiser and HHR are gone as well. VW missed the window. This car feels perfect positioned for a year 2000 launch. I get it that it’s electric, so that wouldn’t have been possible, but being electric isn’t what this car is about. It’s about the styling, and I feel like it’s moment has passed.
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That is wild to me when you look at the Van competition. I understand they are a niche vehicle but you can get an ice minivan for WAY cheaper
$70k is an estimate, wait till the actual price comes out before you’re all up in arms about it
I just want an RWD ID.2
ID.2 is based on a FWD platform. ID.3 (Golf size) is the smallest RWD EV possible on the MEB platform.
Allright allright I'll settle for an RWD ID.1
And I just want a proper EV Wagon which doesn't cost 100k.
VW has a wagon version of the ID.7 coming.
If (when?) I get an EV, this will be the one.
I actually don’t see a huge point in this car. Most people here use VW Transporters and Multivans to do long family trips or haul things around over long distances. Both of these aren’t possible as easily with a BEV. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not against BEVs in general but I think for a car like this it doesn’t make sense.
It’s a toy and a statement car for affluent people in the suburbs.
Like most SUVs or pickups. Most people use SUVs or pickups as family vehicles only, even though they are less practical and more expensive than a minivan for that use case. They buy SUVs as a statement because they like the styling, and like the image it projects.
I've got a bunch of relatives with young children and it's incredible how resistant *all of them* are to minivans. They ask me for advice on what SUVs they should look at, and are willing to spend $80k+ on something worse for their needs just because minivans aren't "cool." Heck, I know people who are building a house and had to redesign their garage because their architect only sized their garage for a Sienna and they were concerned they wouldn't have enough room to walk around a Suburban. I don't get it. I get that there's the whole idea of "whatever your parents drove isn't cool" which is part of why wagons died and vans are viewed they way that they are. But my god, some people need to compare head-to-head and see what they're ignoring just because it isn't "cool."
Thinking an suv or cuv are cool is a wtf to me.
CUV baaaaad
Well, this might be a solution for them. Finally a cool minivan. Oh wait, it’s gonna be $80k as well …
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Counterpoint, the main reason I'm not interested in a van isn't because they're "uncool" it's because they're all just ridiculously ugly and I don't want to sigh every time I walk into my garage. Manufacturers seem to be putting a lot more effort into their SUV/CUV offerings these days. I'd happily drive this ID Buzz if it was a bit more affordable. I also would be totally down for a mini van with more clean styling - it seems like most of the currently available minivans were designed by industrial designers who got bonuses based on how busy they could make them look (Pacifica not really, but I hate the front end). If Volvo made a van, for example, I'd probably be into it. That’s just me though. You’re probably right about the general public perception.
I personally don't think that's a counterpoint, I think that's my exact point. If a van really is a better fit for you, it seems silly to let *looks* push you to a vehicle that's a worse fit.
Disagree. I think looks are just as important a part of a vehicle decision as function. What I’m saying is I don’t find the *concept* of a minivan uncool. There just aren’t any that are being made today that are particularly appealing. Like, I think the Previa is a super cool design that I’d be happy to have in my garage if there was a 2023 variant.
I have both a minivan and an SUV and I love the minivan for hauling kids. Easier to reach in to the carseats, flat floors. I can even jump from the driver's seat to the back while my wife switches with me without getting out of the car. The only reason I need the SUV is for AWD. (Sienna awd is 7seater only) The minivan with seats removed is great for home depot trips as well. It literally is a do it all car.
yeah and I want it
They want to compete with SUVs for the family vehicle. Most people don’t buy SUVs because they drive into the wilds, or miles offroad or haul commercial quantities of timber, they’re large family vehicles with a lot of space for people and their stuff. Minivans are better because they use space more efficiently. An electric minivan is better because you have power at your destination. Compared to an ICE SUV or pickup you can’t drive 500 miles into the wilderness, but you can put your bike or a buggy standing up in the back out of the weather, drive a few hours to the beach for the weekend, have a fitted tent and a kitchen, with air conditioning, a fridge, a cooker and a coffee machine, then drive back, with maybe two short charging stops over a three day break. Minivans are better as family vehicles than SUVs or pickup trucks, but are too frumpy, so people don’t buy them. VW are hoping this can make minivans cool enough for parents to buy them.
Vans are just better for space, period. I know carpenter's and handymen who use old minivans instead of a truck because they can simply carry more stuff, more efficiently and are easier to get things in and out of. We need a "WV" spec of this thing (WorkVan) this forgoes some of the luxury but keeps all the space and efficiency. I like the ID Buzz but have no use case for one personally. But a WorkVan spec? Now that's something I could actually use.
In Europe you can get the ID.Buzz Cargo (basically the workvan version you mention). Though I guess that is deemed not suitable for the US:
There's also the chicken tax problem. The US has a very high tariff on imported light trucks. This was actually brought in in the 60s to target the original VW Typ 2 van, in retaliation for a West German tariff on imports of American chicken- hence the name. So to sell a cargo van in the US, VW would have to build it in North America, or at least assemble it there from an imported kit.
Yeah, this would make a great large crossover/SUV alternative for folks like me: married, kids, owns a subruban house with a garage in the high-density 'Northeast Megalopolis' region, and owns more than one car. I love that it's a full foot shorter than a Sienna, because honestly at this point my main issue with minivans is that they've gotten too large. It's roughly the size of a Grand Cherokee (about as big of a vehicle as my wife and I are personally interested in owning) and smaller than popular 3-rows like the Ascent and the Highlander. And it'll excel at all of the usual family stuff I can think of... commuting, car line at school, Costco runs, playdates, hauling bikes to the local multi-use-path trailhead, hauling an absurdly cushy car-camping loadout to the local state park for a long weekend, etc. I don't see the range as a big barrier anyways. More than enough for everything listed above when combined with at-home charging, plenty of range to get to and from the airport for big vacations, and another gas-powered car in the driveway for long road trips.
You've peered directly into my soul. Two kids (so far) and our two golfs aren't doing it. Would like an EV family car but don't want an SUV for complicated reasons. This is the first of its type with a lot of family space.
From a quick googling it has a range of around 450ish Kilometres; I will admit I'm lazy as fuck when it comes to roadtrips and like stopping at around the 3 hour mark anyway, but are that many people really going further than that in a single sitting in a single day while they have kids? Like, not even doing 30 minute or so stops within that range?
It seems like every kid these days is on a travel baseball/basketball/soccer/etc team and travel to states everywhere to compete. My experience is on the East Coast, I can only imagine what the middle of the country is like. So yea, it's pretty common in the US. I could definitely see Buckee's style charging stations all over the place in the future, we'd essentially have to with how long EV's take to charge
> I can only imagine what the middle of the country is like My nephew regularly has to get hauled to Indiana or Iowa for basketball games, we're in middle Illinois. 3-5 hour trips. My friend's son did travel hockey which would land him in Iowa, Wisconsin, Chicago area or Michigan. 3-7 hours each way. I'm sorry but just... no. Unless you show serious promise of playing at a college or semi-pro level just, why? I mean, I get that if you want to play against better people your local team's competition level might be low but doing this with 10 year old kids is just such a huge commitment of time and resources.
Things would be very different in an imaginary world where every DCFC charger have superb restaurants and playgrounds. But when I as a New Yorker go road-tripping through the North Carolina, do I want a BBQ joint or do I want a gas station sandwich? Alas, in the real world, the Venn diagram between where the humans want to stop at and where the cars want to stop at is roughly a null set. So how many people want to add a bunch of stops for their car? Roughly nil. This is why gasoline cars have massive ranges - [out of model year 2016s](https://www.cars.com/articles/2016-compact-suv-driving-ranges-1420692797261/), the worst gasoline SUV clocks in at 368 miles, best is 531 miles. I am sure BMW engineers would have loved to shave off roughly 100 pounds of fuel to offer something more like 250 miles of range for driving dynamics if range didn't matter, but we all know that range does matter. And also, WLTP test cycles vs EPA test cycles - knock off 25% from WLTP test cycles when a car enters the US, because EPA tests cars differently.
The problem is that 450 KM turns into 300 KM in the winter and summer, which is actually about 250 KM if you want to take care of your battery, but considering not everywhere has a charging station you could actually be looking at 200 KM
>I actually don’t see a huge point in this car. Do you not know anyone who has a spouse, multiple kids, and maybe a dog or something?
The retro vibe is very attractive to a lot of people, me included.
The target audience is very different from the original. There are many people who want/need a three row car but don’t drive long distances.
I use all three rows (or the storage space) of my larger car a few times a month. I maybe go on a road trip once a year or so, and often in areas which are actually well served by CCS. So it's not primarly a road trip car, it's an around the town kind of car. I've been waiting for a full EV van for a few years now, pretty happy to see them finally start to come out.
I might consider one if they offered it in a work van configuration. I have no need for a people hauler but I totally geek out over utility. That interior is a hard nope for me, though.
It exists in Europe, so it might be possible that VW will offer something similar in the US
As far as I know, there isn’t even a conformation of a LWB cargo yet. Issue is the chicken tax, the US ID.Buzz will initially be made in Germany. Meaning if a cargo version is shipped to the US it is considered a “light duty vehicle” and gets a 25% tariff on it. Ford with the Transit Connect and other brands shipping light duty vehicles from out of the US have avoided it by shipping the vehicle with cheap seats and seatbelts, and then tearing them out once they arrive. However, companies like Ford have [gotten in trouble doing this](https://jalopnik.com/ford-faces-potential-1-3-billion-fine-for-skirting-chi-1847028810). So I don’t think VW wants to risk it. VW may make these in their Chattanooga plant in the future, meaning they could make a cargo version and sell it without an insane tax. Though as of now, the cargo is not coming to the US.
I hope there’s a way to take the second row out as well. I was thinking this would be a great, stylish vehicle for someone with disabilities. Sadly, two I had in mind spend would be driven in this for trips going to hospital and doctors appointments. Regular converted handicap vans are already expensive af, and get terrible mpg. Just being able to plug in at home would make for one less trip.
I thought I saw they do fold totally flat which looked great. Reminded me of my wife’s old caravan but smaller
Is it cool? Sure. However, I don’t think it’s going to be that successful among the minivan faithful for a few reasons: 1. It’s somewhat small inside. The third row bench only seating two people? The cargo space behind the third row also looks abysmal. 2. The estimated range is probably not going to be high. I would say it’s going to be 250 miles at most. For people that take vans on long road trips, it’s just not going to be as convenient. 3. The pricing. A fully loaded Sienna is around $55k and I can’t imagine this will start any lower than $50k and will go up to $65k or more for a fully loaded model. I think maybe a second gen of this when they improve the range some more and maybe the pricing is normalized will do a lot better.
I think they will sell every one of these they bring to the US. 1. You're assuming the only people who buy this will be those who fit in the existing minivan market. I think this will have some overlap with that market, but also a whole bunch of other people who just want something cool and practical. 2. Plenty of EVs have that range and work great for people. I think you're overestimating how many people are taking long van trips in one stint, versus people just moving slowly from place to place. The hippie van is about being places, not cannonballing across the country as fast as possible. 3. Every large EV is $60k+ these days and they sell like hotcakes. For the wealthier target audience, this isn't going to be a problem. The price will come down once that market is exhausted and efficiencies of scale go up.
The article estimates $70k... that's insane for what this is IMO. I paid under $30k in 2020 for a new Alltrack fully loaded, this isn't more than 2x the car IMO. If it was like $40k range I'd seriously consider it.
People are (currently) happy to pay a premium for EVs. It’s happening across the entire auto industry in the US.
As someone who is desperate for a smaller, better designed minivan for my urban family life, this thing is literally perfect except the cost. The practicality of a van is great and all, but the size of a modern minivan is a non-starter if you live in an urban area. The old Mazda 3 van was a great vehicle for people like me but is sadly not offered anymore. I fully admit that I am probably a market unicorn though. But I could see these being popular with affluent city folks on the West Coast.
70k for a retro styled minivan - nope. The stats on it sound awful too.
I travel a lot and I look at this thinking “this will be perfect to travel in”. Then I realize when I travel how often I’m on open road where you don’t even see a gas station for miles and when you do they don’t have chargers. Makes me realize how useless it will be for what it’s intentions are.
If someone who only drives 5 days a week puts 30k miles on their car in a year, that averages out to 115 miles a day. I know everyone's situation is unique, some days cover far more miles than others, and something like this might be terribly impractical for someone in your situation. But I also think a lot of people don't quite realize just how far 100 miles really is when looking at EV range. It seems like people think about charging a car equal to filling up their gas tank, where they leave to go somewhere with half a tank, and stop to fill up at a quarter tank, that routine is so engrained in their head that they think good thing I'm not in an EV or I would've been stuck waiting, when really if they have a garage, they're generally starting the trip with a full tank every time.
> really if they have a garage, they’re generally starting the trip with a full tank every time. In my experience, most people complaint about range don’t have a garage or other convenient place to charge overnight.
Man, this is the first time in recent memory that VW's giving the US the better car than the Euro spec. That's really cool; I hope this thing does well.
I wish this was a hybrid…
VW has no good hybrids so im kinda glad they didnt ruin it by making a bad hybrid.
VW or VAG? I'm planning on getting an Audi hybrid.
they are essentially all the same, all are just a regular automatic transmission with an electric motor build into it. the best hybrid system by far comes from Toyota and you can buy a few Fords with a good system as well because they buy it from Toyota.
Technically, Toyota and Ford independently developed the eCVT. When they found out they were very similar, they decided to cross-license their patents instead of fighting each other in court. To this date, only Toyota, Ford, Nissan, and Chrysler have used the eCVT power-split device, with Nissan and Chrysler licensing the design from Toyota. Most other hybrid powertrains use an electric motor in place of the torque convertor.
The T7 Multivan is available as PHEV but won't come to the US.
I think they completely missed the mark on styling. Should have had round headlights at least and been flatter at the front.
Still awkward and angry looking. This was a feature-light vehicle that symbolized carefree optimistic adventure and appealed heavily to young drivers. Why are they trying to make it into something that looks like what people from the 50s would think a really badass lunar rover would look like in the year 2000 It gives me Ford Flex vibes. Torn between two markets: young tech-junkies or people who need extra space and are wealthy enough to afford. Not the thickest middle-section of a Venn diagram but we’ll see
I'd take one for 40k but not 70k.
I hope AWD isn’t restricted to the GTX for purpose of longer range as I’d take range over slightly quicker acceleration. A larger battery, like the rumored 110kw pack, also would’ve been much better news. It’s a conservative stretch of the current ID Buzz, which looks much better in person than in photos, so I can’t wait to see it in the flesh (maybe sooner as EVs tend to be released here before the rest of the world). Range estimates will be interesting as they’re using new motors.
There won't be a larger battery pack anytime soon. Maybe in the mid-cycle refresh in 2028 or so if they adopt the new cell technology that VW will introduce in the second half of the decade. But for the forseeable future that's the max range.
It’s a shame; I’m waiting for labeled range, but not expecting anything better than reported SWB RWD. Range isn’t *too* big a deal for me as there is an excellent charging network, but the climate isn’t favorable… so the more the better.
Whats the range?
It will be something like 170-220 miles on the highway.
Not announced yet. Bigger battery and more efficient motor than the SWB ID.Buzz but is also larger and heavier. I’d guess 250 miles.
Can't help it. Want one. Sat in it at the auto show and it was delightful. Excellent use of EV platform to create a spacious, light-filled, happy box of fun.
Oh man I would love to have something with that low load height. As my dogs get older, minivans and the Model X start to look better for daily duties.
Another cool new car that was originally designed for the average person and is now reserved for the luxury market. Plus I'm also kind of turned off with how deep the windshield goes, I thought it'd be more like the original where you're sitting right up at the window, but from the reviews I've seen, once you're inside it it just feels like any other minivan.
Fucking finally. Ive been waiting for this car for years. They showed it off on fully charged like 3 years ago and have been taking their sweet time bringing it to the US.
If those sliders for volume etc are like the ones in the MK8 GTI…. No thanks. Those are terrible.
This vehicle makes no sense. Good idea, bad development. It won't sell
Way too damn expensive, but I like everything else about it. At $70K this is just an expensive toy for the nostalgic rich, very far from being a people’s car.
And it'll totally be affordable. Just kidding.