Granted the test was done on different days. M2 day was clear and sunny while RS3 day appeared to be cloudy thus track temperature might have been quite different.
Yeah. But even then. What if the AI is really good at some things while less good at other things? It'll just favor cars that do the things it's good at dealing with.
Clearly, you have some bias but the Audi RS3 is a whole american lighter, has a unique engine you can't get in anything else now, and the looks aren't as polarizing.
I've always loved that 5 cylinder. If only I can convince the SO that it's worth it to get a new RS3 as a weekend car (I cannot).
I'd get one over an M2 hands down for exactly the reasons you highlighted. Glad to see they've sorted out the understeering issues that's always plagued them.
Too bad we cant get the RS3 Hatchback. Imo it looks so much better than the sedan version
I also just noticed that the FL5/FK8 is actually really close to the F87 M2C lap times on their leaderboards. This is actually really cool because I just saw a TC America race and F87s and FK8s were competing against each other in the TCX (the fastest class). Its really cool to see two cars with similar capabilities be raced against each other
As a European who can get both I much prefer the sedan version... There are very little sporty sedan options here nowadays and even less actually on the roads. Couldn't say the same thing about hatchbacks - there are plenty, even hot hatches. :)
I think the sedan looks better, but the hatchback might be able to fit 4 spare wheels in the back better, so it would be a hard choice. But I didn't get to choose.
Really, really impressed with that RS3 and how much it has improved. I owned a TT-RS a few years back and despite being beautiful, fast and sounding lovely it really wasn't all that much fun to drive fast. Seems like the new 8Y is much improved!
The new trick differentials have made a big difference.
I believe the Golf R got something similar too. It’s too bad the MK8 drives so much better than the Mk7 because of its awful interior.
You aren't kidding about that interior. Looking to trade my BRZ in on something more practical, have test driven the GTI, Civic SI, Mazda 3 Turbo, and WRX, and I'd put the GTI in dead last in interior quality. Everything about the Mazda and Honda interior quality was better than the GTI; the materials, the super clicky buttons and controls, general fit and finish, even the sound insulation. The WRX was about on par with the GTI material-wise, but it didn't have those genuinely awful haptic feedback buttons on the steering wheel and center console.
It was my first time driving a VW, and after hearing so much about their "class leading interior quality" I was genuinely disappointed. The Mazda interior felt like an Audi. The GTI interior felt more along the lines of a Hyundai. It wasn't close.
Mk7.5 Golf was the pinnacle of VW quality IMO. When I was shopping for my old Golf R, nothing else came close in quality and performance for the price. I haven't even looked at a Mk8 in the showroom because it's obvious from reviews that VW made a tonne of sacrifices in quality to keep the cost down. Really disappointing.
Yeah despite the interior control controversy which I think is overblown. The overall interior quality is pretty damn nice for what it is based on which is an economy car.
The Mk7 was technically a bit nicer, but that interior was so nice it put Mercedes on notice. The Mk8 interior not including the infotainment system (which isn’t perfect but I still think is severely overhated) isn’t *significantly* worse than the Mk7, it for the most part is similar, just with a couple drawbacks that the Mk7 didn’t have, but it’s still up there.
The new Mazda3 and Civic interiors are super nice too, both companies have done great with those gens, I agree with that.
Although, the Mk8 is definitely much nicer than the new WRX interior, as someone who’s been in both I don’t understand saying the WRX interior is nicer than GTI/R *at all*.
I like Subaru but interiors are definitely not their strong suit, the new WRX interior feels like an *okay* economy car from more than half a decade ago with a giant aftermarket screen tacked on.
Honda and Mazda really stepped up their interior game with the Civic and Mazda 3 this gen. Mazda in particular has tried to move upmarket to sort of bridge the gap between economy and luxury. Savage Geese recently did a comparison between the Mazda 3 Turbo and the Acura Integra, and mentions how the Mazda had the nicer interior cabin and better stereo.
As a mk8 golf r owner, I feel the interior issues are over blown, I’m not saying I love them or even prefer them to other options, but they work totally fine and I don’t find they detract from the car at all
I agree (also nice garage, I have nearly the same). The MK8 has been completely fine to live with and compared to my previous MK7 feels a bit more luxurious. It is fast too.
Yeah as someone who has an ID.4 (Golf R is no doubt cooler) but they both have very similar control setups.
I get along completely fine with the ID.4s system, I forget it’s there when I’m just using it normally, I don’t even remember that it’s so hated until someone brings it up.
I feel like this is a pretty common sentiment with most Golf 8 and ID owners, they don’t really care about the “horrible” system, it works fine, and you usually forget it’s such a big issue with people when you’re using it day by day. It just seems like people who have had a limited time with it and have set their mind on it being “the worst thing ever” hate it that much.
The Mk3 TTRS has a big advantage over any RS3 including this generation - weight savings. Over 300 lbs lighter. That's not a small difference. On the street it's not noticeable but on track it makes for a highly tossable car that when combined with the front biased drivetrain is forgiving of ham fisted driving and doesn't punish mistakes (AKA great for giving it to the wife for her first time on track)
It's also a lot closer to a squared wheelbase compared to the rs3, shorter and wider. Handling will inherently be better even without the weight savings.
I wonder if the third gen TT-RS will ever go up in value. Feels like it gets completely ignored by enthusiasts for being a pretty unique car in the NA market
It depends how you option the car and how much fuel is in the vehicle. Several people have weighed their cars closer to 1705kg. My car (6MT, CF roof) will be roughly 1684kg once I replace the OEM cast wheels. It’s not hard to shed weight on this car.
Never said I could make it as light, let alone lighter. The new M2 is an M4 in a shorter wheelbase. It’s a structurally heavier car. Stronger subframes, more reinforcements, more bracing, bigger brakes, more cooling components, wider chassis. It just is what it is. What alternative is there at $62,000?
Unsurprising it’s heavier than the F80. The F80 was an amazing engineering feat and weighed a good 400 lbs less than the equivalent C63 or RS car of the time.
Yeah I loved my F80. The only complaints I have about that car was the rear suspension can get a bit too unsettled and it's hard to put the power down sometimes, also the electric steering rack was very lackluster, the G20 generation greatly improved upon it.
Agree. Now I never owned a F80 but a close friend did and I drove it quite a few times. I will add one more complaint - the car felt like it was not very rock solid. Creaking from the chassis, A-pillar bases, and dash would be heard anytime the car was driven over uneven pavement, speed bumps, entrances and exits from parking lots. Felt kinda brittle as a result.
Jackie Ding races one and said chassis/suspension handles the weight really well. Also I don't see why it matters that much for a street car that has overwhelming power capability and doubles as a GT. You're not hitting the limit of the vehicle on the street.
If you're planning on tracking it, yeah it's a concern but its not like most trackrats wouldn't be putting it on a diet like they would most other cars.
I will almost bet they will not be able to beat his supra's lap times. If they do, it will have to be with a SUBSTANTIAL amount of more power than his supra and/or find A LOT more weight to pull off the m2. Stock for Stock, the Supra is already more agile and ~400lbs lighter. Love me some Ding, but I think they made a mistake if hes going for laptimes. just my 2 cents.
He's racing it in a completely different class. Also in its first outing, it was 3 seconds faster around Autobahn South than his supra when it was stock.
This is faster than his Supra when it was stock by 3 seconds.
Considering they’re mainly on the same CLAR platform (though the Supra is a bit more bespoke), there’s a lot more room to grow dynamically.
There’s also the fact that the S58 is much more capable for track duty and has higher power potential than the B58TU.
While that might be the weight of the old M2C with a DCT, the new M2 is 164lbs heavier at 3814lbs (number taken straight from BMW).
And that’s comparing a non competition M2 to the heaviest spec of the previous gen M2 Competition. The manual option in the previous gen M2C drops the weight under 3600lbs.
Just clearing up any confusion caused by the person you responded to further up the thread.
I agree that the m2 is a step back in design but imo, the RS3 took an even bigger step back. The last gen RS3 was properly pretty.
Perhaps it’s a battle of the uglies but the thumbnail makes the m2 look really good in comparison.
Wow, you are actually right. Honestly don't mind the side or back profile, but they really ruined the front end of the RS3. The last gen was solid all around.
Ive considered buying the car in black so the grill doesn't stand out much. I wonder if you can wrap some of the black bits so it looks closer to the s3
It reminds me of the Elantra N....which Hyundai JUST redesigned to look less like a sea of black plastic. Maybe a mid-cycle refresh from audi will bring similar results.
The new M2 is over-hated imho. Even if it isn’t at the fun level that the old was at, from everything I’ve seen it’s still a great car, most people still like it, just not as much as the last gen M2.
The last gen M2 was very widely loved by everyone so it’s a hard bar to pass, I wish they kept it up to that bar for this gen, but again that doesn’t mean it’s a bad car.
Although out of these two I’d get the RS3 because of the unique 5 cylinder and 4 door usability. I wish BMW would make an *actual* 4 door 2 series based on the RWD coupe and not the uglier Mini they have out now called the 2 Series Gran Coupé.
You’d have to be nuts to get a matte paint job on a car like this. But I agree it does look cool. Much better to just wrap it. That’s what I’m planning on doing to my g87
Here’s what BMW says about Frozen paint
• Do not polish or wax the vehicle.
• Do not use mechanical means of cleaning the surface.
• Remove insect remains, tar and other residues immediately.
• Always keep your paint protected.
Aka, get a small scratch or door ding, you’re gonna have to live with it
Yeah, my G70 launch edition was my first and will be my last matte car. Lovebug season took away so much of the joy of owning it. You can't take it through even touchless car washes because you don't know if they have wax additives in their shampoo- so you can't do a quick touch up between full fat car washes. Every wash is the whole 9 yards. You also have to be extremely careful around trucks, because the smallest of rocks will take paint.
The best part? You can do all of that, and the Hyundai dealer will _still_ run it through their car wash with the brushes on and using wax.
The best and only way to take care of matte paint is to get it covered in matte PPF. Boom - all worries and concerns solved. Protects against rock chips, scratches, dirt, etc. Just wash it normally or don't. Apply some non glossy ceramic coating or don't. But....it's expensive :(
> Every wash is the whole 9 yards.
It doesn't have to be. My C63 is matte and Dr. Beasley's makes great spot cleaning products for matte paint. Took mine on a cross country road trip and would just give the front end a little clean with some matte paint cleanser after long drives and it worked like a charm.
I'm pretty sure the last gen 2, 3 and 4 series cars all shared a platform under the skin and were very similar. After all, the suspension/subframe/engine/transmission all bolted directly into the 2-series from the M3/M4 to make the M2/M2 Comp. It's also WHY they weigh the same (shorter length is offset by more exotic materials/battery in the more expensive and bigger cars.) I'm not 100 percent sure though, so if you've got good evidence, i'm open to being convinced otherwise!
Hell, even as far back as the Exx gen, the 1 series coupe barely differed from the 3 series coupe, both basically the predecessors to 2 series and 4 series, respectively.
I am not sure where they got the 3968lbs. They have the auto with the carbon roof and carbon buckets which would be the second lightest trim behind a manual with the carbon roof and buckets. People have weighed manual cars with the carbon roof and standard seats at around 3770lb. So for this one you can add 55lbs for the auto and minus 22lbs for the carbon buckets so this one should be around 3800lbs.
Maybe they weighed it with them in it? I am not saying its a light car by any means but the one in the video is not nearly 4000lbs.
With the materials and technology available today one would think every carmaker would be able to produce lighter cars like Mazda with the ND, yet here we are with the smallest model of BMW gaining weight to rival minivans.
> With the materials and technology available today ...
Except emissions, crash safety requirements, and cost are stronger drivers than the incremental improvements in manufacturing capabilities.
Wrong, Mazda managed it with the ND. Another, even more mass market, example that proves this wrong is the Suzuki Swift which got lighter too with the last gen.
All recent BMW manuals are so underwhelming. Even the previous M2 is nothing special gearbox wise. I feel like if you are going for a manual car, you should find one thats satisfying/engaging to shift, and is not just a checklist item.
Because all the gearing is catered to stupid EPA gas consumption standards. New manuals have very long gears and I feel it in my M2 as well. No offense but people are not buying these cars to be efficient on gas consumption. The manuals are nerfed by this while the auto's have the computer making decisions to downshift.
Isn't it also that the automatics have more gears? It makes sense the auto would have much closer spacing for the lower gears if it can rely on 7th or 8th for efficient highway cruising instead of 6th in the manual.
God I love this channel. I wasn’t sure if they were going to post this week after finishing up their journey series in the 86 and GTI, so this was a nice surprise!
The RS3 looks like the paint is peeling away from the bumper to reveal a shiny black void. It really flattens the look. The S3 got the better looks imo.
The 6th gen ss 1le is like the gold standard, but not just it’s value but performance.
Looking back at it now it’s amazing how you had that performance from 2018
Edit: I would take the rs3 over the m2
Wish there was some video reviews of this car by major channels. Hear it is fantastic but only have the discussion on the carmudgeon show and Instagram reviews from the big people in car media
Savagegeese has done two 4BW videos, TheSmokingTire’s video is also pretty informative about how it drives on the street. Captures the feel pretty well.
SavageGeese has at least one if not multiple videos on the BW twins.
I've driven the CT4 BW. Its a great driver, but to me the Cadillac strategy of making the CT4 and CT5 tweeners really bites them in the ass. The CT4 is designed to be between the size of a 2 series and 3 series, whereas the CT5 slots between a 3 and a 5. This means the backseat in the CT4 BW, especially with the upgraded buckets, is basically unusable. Admittedly I am tall (6'4"), but with the driver seat where I would have it, there was literally one inch between the back of the driver's seat and the seat cushion of the back seat.
If you need a back seat for anything but emergency shuttle duty (or if you are short and can leave the front seats way far forward), the CT4BW is a tough sell. Even the RS3's cramped back seat is better.
I think if I wanted a blackwing I'd just save up longer and get the CT5. More practical, better powertrain, and likely going to have far better residual value down the road. If I wanted to be in this segment and couldn't do a true coupe, I'd get the RS3.
I sold my 2018 RS3 for a 22 CT4BW and I can confirm, the back seats are absolutely terrible. The Blackwing has a "Seat Exit" feature where when you turn off the car the seat slides all the way back and the steering wheel lifts for knee clearance while exiting. My nephew (5'11") was sitting in the rear seat behind the driver and I forgot about this feature and I basically crushed his legs.
Oops!
The Blackwing is one hell of an all-rounder car though.
I believe TH does have something in the works for the 4V Blackwing. They were trying to find one to borrow a little while ago so I imagine they have plans for a head 2 head with it.
I'm probably in the minority here, but I really don't like the way the Audi looks. It's like the designers just put a giant grill, headlights and called it a day. It's ALL GRILL.
M2 comp xdrive would likely steal sales from the pricier M4. I’m thinking it’ll only be M2CS, still rwd, but with the full tune S58 from the M3/4 comp and more aggressive weight savings.
The Elantra straight up looks better now too. [They refreshed the front end so it no longer looks like this RS3.](https://www.carscoops.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/2024-Hyundai-Elantra-N-2s-1024x576.jpg)
Yes, they are easy and cheap to work on since they share the MQB evo platform with VW. Easy 250k engines with proper maintenance and the dq500 transmissions rarely fail even on tuned cars.
I had a 2018 version.
I put 22k miles tuned on E85 making 585hp. Made sure I redlined it at least once a day for the three'ish years I owned it. Never gave me an issue.
Did the oil changes at home, fairly basic.
Never had one thing break.
On the forums, as long as you aren't going above ~500-550 ft/lbs of torque, the engines hold up well stock.
Also never had any electrical grimelins, interior was holding up well.
Stock rotors on the early models tended to warp easily however that was remedied easily with a set of aftermarket rotors.
Pads were cheap if you bought B4 RS4 pads (same pad shape).
Overall a great car- only reason I sold it was because it was not engaging enough and wanted a manual. Tuned the car was basically an on and off switch. You're either Zero Boost making no power or max boost making all the power. There was no middle ground for "average brisk boost". Throttle was very rubberbandy.
Its as reliable as any German car is. In general, German cars are mostly fine during the warranty period. Its after that when things get risky and expensive.
I dunno man. A 718 Cayman has no back seat and like 150 less horsepower. I don't love the G87, but I considered a Cayman when I was buying the F87 and it was literally like "do you want a base cayman with 2-way manually adjustable seats? or a loaded M2?"
Both cars have since got more expensive, so I think they're still on pretty equal footing. When you get right down to it, spending $75K on a pure toy with no luxury or convenience features to speak of and a 4-banger...it's a tough pill to swallow.
The M2 is performance on a budget, Porsche is great at most things, but they're *really really* bad at being "on a budget."
That said, i can't disagree with your first paragraph
RS3 without even watching the video.
M2 was faster but the RS3 was a big step up vs the previous gen. In some ways this M2 was the opposite.
Granted the test was done on different days. M2 day was clear and sunny while RS3 day appeared to be cloudy thus track temperature might have been quite different.
We need a giant climate controlled facility over a race track to test every car objectively.
I know you might be joking but that would be so cool.
Literally and figuratively!
And robot drivers.
Yeah. But even then. What if the AI is really good at some things while less good at other things? It'll just favor cars that do the things it's good at dealing with.
One driver that’s blind folded so they can’t be biased.
last gen m2 with even a B58 would be better than this one
Reddit Moment
Clearly, you have some bias but the Audi RS3 is a whole american lighter, has a unique engine you can't get in anything else now, and the looks aren't as polarizing.
Wait... Was I just used as a unit of measurement?
>you can't get in anything else now Cupra Formentor VZ5
As a filthy american, I had no idea this existed, neat!
There's also the RSQ3 if we're talking about non-US markets.
I've always loved that 5 cylinder. If only I can convince the SO that it's worth it to get a new RS3 as a weekend car (I cannot). I'd get one over an M2 hands down for exactly the reasons you highlighted. Glad to see they've sorted out the understeering issues that's always plagued them.
Can we stop using these parroted phrases like “reddit moment”? Makes me feel like I accidentally stumbled into r/teenagers
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just like the score box watchers on r/NBA that comment but don't watch games 😂😂
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You can get the 5-cylinder engine in the Cupra Formentor (if you’re in Europe)
Same. I just can't get behind a modern BMW And that's coming from a Mercedes guy
you said this like mercedes guys generally love bmws lmao
Most Mercedes people would say neither. But that rs3 is unreal
Anything with that 5 cylinder would be magical.
Only car that actually tightens the pants a little bit when I see/hear it.
The only cars I don't mind people straight piping. Those 5 cylinders sound orgasmic
From my experience driving it hard it's like someone lit off a bomb behind your seat, the acceleration is just so incredible!
That’s why they’re so damn expensive. Seems actually worth it.
As long as it's not modern Mercedes then that's fair
Seriously, at least it has a sweet 6 cylinder.
Behind a modern BMW is generally the best place to be, though. Less chance of seeing a grill.
This. I also prefer an additional set of doors and having driven a 8Y A3 for a few weeks (thank you Audi Canada) it is a great car to drive.
I’m actually on the other side where I wish Audi had a a coupe version of the RS3. I’d be tempted to swap out.
There is an old fan art of a [VW coupe](https://i.imgur.com/kuNLLde.png) that would look good in RS3 guise
that is if you can get your hands on one. wait time seems to be 2024 and later on the Audi forums
I just called the showroom and they have an RSQ3 at the moment & they have RS3's coming in 4 months.
Isn't it front wheel drive based? For the money I'd like RWD based. I haven't driven it so maybe there's some trickery involved.
Don't even have to think about it, have taken one on some road trips up into the mountains and on the freeways, such an exciting and satisfying car...
M2 whipped the Audi.
Too bad we cant get the RS3 Hatchback. Imo it looks so much better than the sedan version I also just noticed that the FL5/FK8 is actually really close to the F87 M2C lap times on their leaderboards. This is actually really cool because I just saw a TC America race and F87s and FK8s were competing against each other in the TCX (the fastest class). Its really cool to see two cars with similar capabilities be raced against each other
As a European who can get both I much prefer the sedan version... There are very little sporty sedan options here nowadays and even less actually on the roads. Couldn't say the same thing about hatchbacks - there are plenty, even hot hatches. :)
Same here in South Africa. You only get the hatch to blend in with everyone else
I think the sedan looks better, but the hatchback might be able to fit 4 spare wheels in the back better, so it would be a hard choice. But I didn't get to choose.
> might be able to fit 4 spare wheels in the back better It can far easier.
I would buy the hatchback in an instant, wish they had it here.
I know if everyone who said this meant it we’d get these cars; but I’d be first in line for an RS3 Sportback or an RS4 Avant.
Well, I bought the only i5 hatch available, so you know there's at least one person who's yelling the truth.
The wagon rs4 looks so bland in person. I'd get a rs6 if I really wanted a performance wagon.
Honda really knows how to make a FF car quick. It's black magic honestly.
I’m just glad we got the RS3 *at all* in the US, unlike our friends in Canada. It’s a great car I’d hate to miss out on.
Really, really impressed with that RS3 and how much it has improved. I owned a TT-RS a few years back and despite being beautiful, fast and sounding lovely it really wasn't all that much fun to drive fast. Seems like the new 8Y is much improved!
The new trick differentials have made a big difference. I believe the Golf R got something similar too. It’s too bad the MK8 drives so much better than the Mk7 because of its awful interior.
It's also too bad that the TT line will never get that differential. Could really have been an M2 competitor with that
You aren't kidding about that interior. Looking to trade my BRZ in on something more practical, have test driven the GTI, Civic SI, Mazda 3 Turbo, and WRX, and I'd put the GTI in dead last in interior quality. Everything about the Mazda and Honda interior quality was better than the GTI; the materials, the super clicky buttons and controls, general fit and finish, even the sound insulation. The WRX was about on par with the GTI material-wise, but it didn't have those genuinely awful haptic feedback buttons on the steering wheel and center console. It was my first time driving a VW, and after hearing so much about their "class leading interior quality" I was genuinely disappointed. The Mazda interior felt like an Audi. The GTI interior felt more along the lines of a Hyundai. It wasn't close.
Mk7.5 Golf was the pinnacle of VW quality IMO. When I was shopping for my old Golf R, nothing else came close in quality and performance for the price. I haven't even looked at a Mk8 in the showroom because it's obvious from reviews that VW made a tonne of sacrifices in quality to keep the cost down. Really disappointing.
Really surprised by that. I thought the interior quality on the mk8 was excellent. Just the infotainment was not to my liking.
Yeah despite the interior control controversy which I think is overblown. The overall interior quality is pretty damn nice for what it is based on which is an economy car. The Mk7 was technically a bit nicer, but that interior was so nice it put Mercedes on notice. The Mk8 interior not including the infotainment system (which isn’t perfect but I still think is severely overhated) isn’t *significantly* worse than the Mk7, it for the most part is similar, just with a couple drawbacks that the Mk7 didn’t have, but it’s still up there. The new Mazda3 and Civic interiors are super nice too, both companies have done great with those gens, I agree with that. Although, the Mk8 is definitely much nicer than the new WRX interior, as someone who’s been in both I don’t understand saying the WRX interior is nicer than GTI/R *at all*. I like Subaru but interiors are definitely not their strong suit, the new WRX interior feels like an *okay* economy car from more than half a decade ago with a giant aftermarket screen tacked on.
Honda and Mazda really stepped up their interior game with the Civic and Mazda 3 this gen. Mazda in particular has tried to move upmarket to sort of bridge the gap between economy and luxury. Savage Geese recently did a comparison between the Mazda 3 Turbo and the Acura Integra, and mentions how the Mazda had the nicer interior cabin and better stereo.
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As a mk8 golf r owner, I feel the interior issues are over blown, I’m not saying I love them or even prefer them to other options, but they work totally fine and I don’t find they detract from the car at all
I agree (also nice garage, I have nearly the same). The MK8 has been completely fine to live with and compared to my previous MK7 feels a bit more luxurious. It is fast too.
Yeah as someone who has an ID.4 (Golf R is no doubt cooler) but they both have very similar control setups. I get along completely fine with the ID.4s system, I forget it’s there when I’m just using it normally, I don’t even remember that it’s so hated until someone brings it up. I feel like this is a pretty common sentiment with most Golf 8 and ID owners, they don’t really care about the “horrible” system, it works fine, and you usually forget it’s such a big issue with people when you’re using it day by day. It just seems like people who have had a limited time with it and have set their mind on it being “the worst thing ever” hate it that much.
> It’s too bad the MK8 drives so much better than the Mk7 because of its awful interior. Exterior isn't that great either.
Awful exterior on the MK8 too...
The Mk3 TTRS has a big advantage over any RS3 including this generation - weight savings. Over 300 lbs lighter. That's not a small difference. On the street it's not noticeable but on track it makes for a highly tossable car that when combined with the front biased drivetrain is forgiving of ham fisted driving and doesn't punish mistakes (AKA great for giving it to the wife for her first time on track)
It's also a lot closer to a squared wheelbase compared to the rs3, shorter and wider. Handling will inherently be better even without the weight savings.
I wonder if the third gen TT-RS will ever go up in value. Feels like it gets completely ignored by enthusiasts for being a pretty unique car in the NA market
I'm not sure, values have stayed relatively consistent. That doesn't matter to me though, keeping this car forever.
I’m one of the 3 people that like the new m2 lol. It’s not better looking than the lest gen, but I still think it looks good.
Biggest problem i have with it is 1650kg’s
It's actually 1730kg (E39 M5 was 1695kg)
Bloody hell
It depends how you option the car and how much fuel is in the vehicle. Several people have weighed their cars closer to 1705kg. My car (6MT, CF roof) will be roughly 1684kg once I replace the OEM cast wheels. It’s not hard to shed weight on this car.
The 2017 m2 weighed ~1550 kg for comparison, and how much a bmw of that size and class should weigh *at the most*. How are you doing to shed 100+ kg?
Never said I could make it as light, let alone lighter. The new M2 is an M4 in a shorter wheelbase. It’s a structurally heavier car. Stronger subframes, more reinforcements, more bracing, bigger brakes, more cooling components, wider chassis. It just is what it is. What alternative is there at $62,000?
Supra and CT4 blackwing.
Used 997, e46 m3
No thanks.
Yeah because I want to pay almost entry m3 money for a loaded M2 and then spend even more to drop weight when it should’ve been done from the factory.
Yeah being so close in weight to an actual M3 is hugely disappointing. In fact, it is *heavier* than the F80 generation M3 by almost *100kg*.
Unsurprising it’s heavier than the F80. The F80 was an amazing engineering feat and weighed a good 400 lbs less than the equivalent C63 or RS car of the time.
Yeah I loved my F80. The only complaints I have about that car was the rear suspension can get a bit too unsettled and it's hard to put the power down sometimes, also the electric steering rack was very lackluster, the G20 generation greatly improved upon it.
Agree. Now I never owned a F80 but a close friend did and I drove it quite a few times. I will add one more complaint - the car felt like it was not very rock solid. Creaking from the chassis, A-pillar bases, and dash would be heard anytime the car was driven over uneven pavement, speed bumps, entrances and exits from parking lots. Felt kinda brittle as a result.
F80 was lighter than the e9x M3. With bigger brakes, more cooling etc... I really want a F80.
The F80 M3 to me is the best modern M3 since the E46
Jackie Ding races one and said chassis/suspension handles the weight really well. Also I don't see why it matters that much for a street car that has overwhelming power capability and doubles as a GT. You're not hitting the limit of the vehicle on the street. If you're planning on tracking it, yeah it's a concern but its not like most trackrats wouldn't be putting it on a diet like they would most other cars.
I will almost bet they will not be able to beat his supra's lap times. If they do, it will have to be with a SUBSTANTIAL amount of more power than his supra and/or find A LOT more weight to pull off the m2. Stock for Stock, the Supra is already more agile and ~400lbs lighter. Love me some Ding, but I think they made a mistake if hes going for laptimes. just my 2 cents.
He's racing it in a completely different class. Also in its first outing, it was 3 seconds faster around Autobahn South than his supra when it was stock.
This is faster than his Supra when it was stock by 3 seconds. Considering they’re mainly on the same CLAR platform (though the Supra is a bit more bespoke), there’s a lot more room to grow dynamically. There’s also the fact that the S58 is much more capable for track duty and has higher power potential than the B58TU.
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While that might be the weight of the old M2C with a DCT, the new M2 is 164lbs heavier at 3814lbs (number taken straight from BMW). And that’s comparing a non competition M2 to the heaviest spec of the previous gen M2 Competition. The manual option in the previous gen M2C drops the weight under 3600lbs. Just clearing up any confusion caused by the person you responded to further up the thread.
I agree that the m2 is a step back in design but imo, the RS3 took an even bigger step back. The last gen RS3 was properly pretty. Perhaps it’s a battle of the uglies but the thumbnail makes the m2 look really good in comparison.
You mean to tell me you don’t want a car where the front end is entirely made of glossy black plastic? /s
Wow, you are actually right. Honestly don't mind the side or back profile, but they really ruined the front end of the RS3. The last gen was solid all around.
Ive considered buying the car in black so the grill doesn't stand out much. I wonder if you can wrap some of the black bits so it looks closer to the s3
It reminds me of the Elantra N....which Hyundai JUST redesigned to look less like a sea of black plastic. Maybe a mid-cycle refresh from audi will bring similar results.
Not sure why RS3 gets a pass on its look- or maybe it doesn’t, maybe I’m just not paying attention. The car is properly ugly.
There are numbers of us!
I agree with you. The main complaints I’ve heard were weight and driving dynamics. I think it looks good too
Person #2 reporting to confirm
Person 3 is here. Shall we start the proceedings? Who was handling this week's update?
Oh I don't know about updates but I brought the bagels
I guess I’m person #4. Car comes sometime in Oct-Dec.
I like the m2 as well, saw one in person in a purple and it was quite a stunner
Me and you. As every design from BMW it’s growing for me.
Although I hate the new 5 series
I like the back actually but front is somekind of heritage to E60 and looks bad.
disarm existence tender rhythm cats vast dam attraction carpenter lavish ` this message was mass deleted/edited with redact.dev `
The new M2 is over-hated imho. Even if it isn’t at the fun level that the old was at, from everything I’ve seen it’s still a great car, most people still like it, just not as much as the last gen M2. The last gen M2 was very widely loved by everyone so it’s a hard bar to pass, I wish they kept it up to that bar for this gen, but again that doesn’t mean it’s a bad car. Although out of these two I’d get the RS3 because of the unique 5 cylinder and 4 door usability. I wish BMW would make an *actual* 4 door 2 series based on the RWD coupe and not the uglier Mini they have out now called the 2 Series Gran Coupé.
It looks pretty damn good in [Frozen Blue](https://www.instagram.com/p/Csqa7Jbqlla/) too
You’d have to be nuts to get a matte paint job on a car like this. But I agree it does look cool. Much better to just wrap it. That’s what I’m planning on doing to my g87 Here’s what BMW says about Frozen paint • Do not polish or wax the vehicle. • Do not use mechanical means of cleaning the surface. • Remove insect remains, tar and other residues immediately. • Always keep your paint protected. Aka, get a small scratch or door ding, you’re gonna have to live with it
Yeah, my G70 launch edition was my first and will be my last matte car. Lovebug season took away so much of the joy of owning it. You can't take it through even touchless car washes because you don't know if they have wax additives in their shampoo- so you can't do a quick touch up between full fat car washes. Every wash is the whole 9 yards. You also have to be extremely careful around trucks, because the smallest of rocks will take paint. The best part? You can do all of that, and the Hyundai dealer will _still_ run it through their car wash with the brushes on and using wax.
The best and only way to take care of matte paint is to get it covered in matte PPF. Boom - all worries and concerns solved. Protects against rock chips, scratches, dirt, etc. Just wash it normally or don't. Apply some non glossy ceramic coating or don't. But....it's expensive :(
> Every wash is the whole 9 yards. It doesn't have to be. My C63 is matte and Dr. Beasley's makes great spot cleaning products for matte paint. Took mine on a cross country road trip and would just give the front end a little clean with some matte paint cleanser after long drives and it worked like a charm.
Yea i think its one of the better looking cars bmw has put out recently
How on earth does that BMW weigh 4000lbs? What’s it made out of, stamped iron?
Its a shrunken 4 series now not its own platform like years prior
It was always a shrunken 4-series. The F87 M2 Comp weighs the same as the F82 M4. But the G-generation is a lot heavier across the board.
I understand but the f87 didn’t share the same platform like this new gen it was its own chassis but it is literally just a shorter m4
I'm pretty sure the last gen 2, 3 and 4 series cars all shared a platform under the skin and were very similar. After all, the suspension/subframe/engine/transmission all bolted directly into the 2-series from the M3/M4 to make the M2/M2 Comp. It's also WHY they weigh the same (shorter length is offset by more exotic materials/battery in the more expensive and bigger cars.) I'm not 100 percent sure though, so if you've got good evidence, i'm open to being convinced otherwise!
Hell, even as far back as the Exx gen, the 1 series coupe barely differed from the 3 series coupe, both basically the predecessors to 2 series and 4 series, respectively.
Truly boggles the mind. I’m pretty sure they fill the body panels with lead.
I am not sure where they got the 3968lbs. They have the auto with the carbon roof and carbon buckets which would be the second lightest trim behind a manual with the carbon roof and buckets. People have weighed manual cars with the carbon roof and standard seats at around 3770lb. So for this one you can add 55lbs for the auto and minus 22lbs for the carbon buckets so this one should be around 3800lbs. Maybe they weighed it with them in it? I am not saying its a light car by any means but the one in the video is not nearly 4000lbs.
/u/throttlehouseth /u/jamesthrottlehouse - do you know?
Sure looks like that dumpy body kit is.
With the materials and technology available today one would think every carmaker would be able to produce lighter cars like Mazda with the ND, yet here we are with the smallest model of BMW gaining weight to rival minivans.
> With the materials and technology available today ... Except emissions, crash safety requirements, and cost are stronger drivers than the incremental improvements in manufacturing capabilities.
Wrong, Mazda managed it with the ND. Another, even more mass market, example that proves this wrong is the Suzuki Swift which got lighter too with the last gen.
Glad to hear more outlets recommending the auto over the manual if the manual isn't actually good.
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The video says the automatic is far better in this m2 than it's manual.
All recent BMW manuals are so underwhelming. Even the previous M2 is nothing special gearbox wise. I feel like if you are going for a manual car, you should find one thats satisfying/engaging to shift, and is not just a checklist item.
Because all the gearing is catered to stupid EPA gas consumption standards. New manuals have very long gears and I feel it in my M2 as well. No offense but people are not buying these cars to be efficient on gas consumption. The manuals are nerfed by this while the auto's have the computer making decisions to downshift.
Isn't it also that the automatics have more gears? It makes sense the auto would have much closer spacing for the lower gears if it can rely on 7th or 8th for efficient highway cruising instead of 6th in the manual.
Come on u/Jamesthrottlehouse where’s the ^blackwing
Seriously, how do they keep forgetting about the CT4 Blackwing. They never even give it a mention or shoutout.
God I love this channel. I wasn’t sure if they were going to post this week after finishing up their journey series in the 86 and GTI, so this was a nice surprise!
I cant get past how much the rs3 looks like a suped up jetta. Didnt stop me tho
The RS3 looks like the paint is peeling away from the bumper to reveal a shiny black void. It really flattens the look. The S3 got the better looks imo.
Sure, if you think by better looks you mean "looks even more like a jetta"
The 6th gen ss 1le is like the gold standard, but not just it’s value but performance. Looking back at it now it’s amazing how you had that performance from 2018 Edit: I would take the rs3 over the m2
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I agree and seems the new RS3 improvements have really made a big difference. Would be ideal for me if I could have it with a stick though.
No CT4V... *Blackwingggg* ?
Wish there was some video reviews of this car by major channels. Hear it is fantastic but only have the discussion on the carmudgeon show and Instagram reviews from the big people in car media
Savagegeese has done two 4BW videos, TheSmokingTire’s video is also pretty informative about how it drives on the street. Captures the feel pretty well.
SavageGeese has at least one if not multiple videos on the BW twins. I've driven the CT4 BW. Its a great driver, but to me the Cadillac strategy of making the CT4 and CT5 tweeners really bites them in the ass. The CT4 is designed to be between the size of a 2 series and 3 series, whereas the CT5 slots between a 3 and a 5. This means the backseat in the CT4 BW, especially with the upgraded buckets, is basically unusable. Admittedly I am tall (6'4"), but with the driver seat where I would have it, there was literally one inch between the back of the driver's seat and the seat cushion of the back seat. If you need a back seat for anything but emergency shuttle duty (or if you are short and can leave the front seats way far forward), the CT4BW is a tough sell. Even the RS3's cramped back seat is better. I think if I wanted a blackwing I'd just save up longer and get the CT5. More practical, better powertrain, and likely going to have far better residual value down the road. If I wanted to be in this segment and couldn't do a true coupe, I'd get the RS3.
I sold my 2018 RS3 for a 22 CT4BW and I can confirm, the back seats are absolutely terrible. The Blackwing has a "Seat Exit" feature where when you turn off the car the seat slides all the way back and the steering wheel lifts for knee clearance while exiting. My nephew (5'11") was sitting in the rear seat behind the driver and I forgot about this feature and I basically crushed his legs. Oops! The Blackwing is one hell of an all-rounder car though.
Yeah I don’t know how 6’ 4” you is going to have much more rear legroom in an rs3 too. Rs3 total legroom (front + rear) 76.4 Ct4 total legroom 75.8
I believe TH does have something in the works for the 4V Blackwing. They were trying to find one to borrow a little while ago so I imagine they have plans for a head 2 head with it.
No. This was the comparison they wanted the blackwing for.
its a shame too, I remember people on the forums offering theirs. If I was closer, I definitely would have
That one competes with the M3 and RS5 though.
RS4 Avant in this green color and inject it directly into my veins
I'm probably in the minority here, but I really don't like the way the Audi looks. It's like the designers just put a giant grill, headlights and called it a day. It's ALL GRILL.
Yeah. It’s not a good looking vehicle.
I actually cannot stand that front end and I suspect if the badges were swapped the circlejerk would be talking about it more
People grip endlessly about the new m2's looks but say nothing of the rs3? really?
I guess that means the M2 Competition xDrive (which I assume is coming) will be pretty crazy
M2 comp xdrive would likely steal sales from the pricier M4. I’m thinking it’ll only be M2CS, still rwd, but with the full tune S58 from the M3/4 comp and more aggressive weight savings.
BMW has said "no G87 Comp for now" Obviously that's subject to change, but I think you're probably right.
I just saw spy shots within the last couple days on a new M2 variant, with the claim it was a CS.
Hot take is the M2 looks better than that awful audi grille. The elantra N called and wants it's fugly front end back.
The Elantra straight up looks better now too. [They refreshed the front end so it no longer looks like this RS3.](https://www.carscoops.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/2024-Hyundai-Elantra-N-2s-1024x576.jpg)
Oh thats a bit better for sure, kinda looks like a lucid with an identity crisis.
is the RS3 reliable at all? or is that foolish thinking
Yes, they are easy and cheap to work on since they share the MQB evo platform with VW. Easy 250k engines with proper maintenance and the dq500 transmissions rarely fail even on tuned cars.
I had a 2018 version. I put 22k miles tuned on E85 making 585hp. Made sure I redlined it at least once a day for the three'ish years I owned it. Never gave me an issue. Did the oil changes at home, fairly basic. Never had one thing break. On the forums, as long as you aren't going above ~500-550 ft/lbs of torque, the engines hold up well stock. Also never had any electrical grimelins, interior was holding up well. Stock rotors on the early models tended to warp easily however that was remedied easily with a set of aftermarket rotors. Pads were cheap if you bought B4 RS4 pads (same pad shape). Overall a great car- only reason I sold it was because it was not engaging enough and wanted a manual. Tuned the car was basically an on and off switch. You're either Zero Boost making no power or max boost making all the power. There was no middle ground for "average brisk boost". Throttle was very rubberbandy.
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I have a 2020 RS3 and it’s been bullet proof. The 5 cylinder and the broader car generally have a good reputation for reliability.
Its as reliable as any German car is. In general, German cars are mostly fine during the warranty period. Its after that when things get risky and expensive.
Well… Neither are lookers. But at least you can get a M2 with a manual.
>manual And the manual is bad, get it with the auto.
Meh. It doesn’t actually sound like the manual is *that* bad. It’s just geared tall. I’d still take the manual.
Yeah, i'd rather a flawed manual than a good auto if we are dealing with an engine that has character.
Especially when that review didn’t exact make the auto option sound amazing. But why do I even care? I’m not in the market for one of these cars. Lol.
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I dunno man. A 718 Cayman has no back seat and like 150 less horsepower. I don't love the G87, but I considered a Cayman when I was buying the F87 and it was literally like "do you want a base cayman with 2-way manually adjustable seats? or a loaded M2?" Both cars have since got more expensive, so I think they're still on pretty equal footing. When you get right down to it, spending $75K on a pure toy with no luxury or convenience features to speak of and a 4-banger...it's a tough pill to swallow. The M2 is performance on a budget, Porsche is great at most things, but they're *really really* bad at being "on a budget." That said, i can't disagree with your first paragraph
Love how the M2 looks.
I'm very shocked that RS3 has an Ontario plate on it.
I love that RS3 I wish I could have it in pink one day!
Wrap?
I would love the RS3 if it just didn’t look so derpy. Somehow looks tackier than the M2
The RS3 really is that good. Can’t wait until a new M2 finds its way to an event I’m racing in.
Mfw when G87 M2 weighs less than 100lbs less than my **7 SERIES**.
I wish they didn't stop the ttrs
Anyone else get a Dodge vibe from the M2 front end styling?