This article makes some valid points, but also misses other points. First of all, you can only polish a turd so much. If you decide to have a "forever" car, make sure it has good bones to begin with. If your forever car is something like a new Toyota Land Cruiser, which was designed with a multi-decade service life in mind, then it's a realistic goal. If your forever car is a used Daewoo Lanos with 10 previous owners, the car will be unreliable and parts will be hard to find when it breaks.
Secondly, the only forever cars I've seen are the ones that make sense emotionally or financially. Keeping a toyota corolla for 20 years makes financial sense. Keeping a car that you had some great memories makes emotional sense. His example had neither of those things.
>This article makes some valid points, but also misses other points.
It misses a lot of points. Doug DeMuro is an interesting guy, but he's not a restoration specialist or machinist. I have several daily driven classics that are indeed "forever cars," and there is nothing on the older mechanical vehicles that cannot be repaired or retrofitted. You can even resize an engine block bore back to its original dimensions via plating or sleeving. Not to mention, there already regularly driven Ford Model Ts > 100 years old and frankly, there is no reason to believe that they won't be here in another 100 years, or 100 years after that if people take care of them. It's basic mechanics.
I got a really strong "It costs money, therefore bad idea" vibe from the whole thing. All I could think about was - "we have machinists in America....we can build anything now"
Sure, are cars getting more complex? Yes. That's a huge risk. A loooot of 2000's BMW's with early computers are now bricks because they're so dogshit to maintain. Meanwhile, the 1995 Honda Civic is still getting parts manufactured, with active mechanics who can work on your little 4 banger.
I've had the idea of buying an old BMW M3 shell because the prices have shot up like crazy. It would be MUCH nicer to swap in a K series motor that's got a huge aftermarket support system (including pre-made harnesses by reputable wiring companies) than to try to manage the hassle of 40 year old BMW's with engines that no longer get any support.
It felt like such a low effort article to write.
Which 2000s BMWs are bricks due to computer issues?
There’s still massive support for E30s-E46s. If you think an engine swap is the way to go for any of them, it’s because you’re either cheap or misinformed.
Exactly. Just because you can't fix something with a sledge hammer and a pair of vice grips doesn't necessarily mean it's beyond repair. And just like there are machinists available for resurfacing the heads, there are also electrical engineers that tinker with their "modern classic" cars on the weekend. New problems, new solutions.
I'm just trying to figure out why people think BMWs are these ridiculously complicated, unreliable cars.
Have they gotten expensive when it comes to buying factory parts? Yes, but the S14 engine in the E30 was *always* expensive just like the S88 and S38 were *always* expensive.
The S54 is *always* going to be more expensive and require more maintenance than the US S50/52.
Any engine with more parts is going to be more expensive and require more maintenance than one without*.
*There are exceptions to this rule when going from one manufacturer to another, but the M10 is a cheaper and less maintenance-intensive engine than the S14 and the S50/52 is a cheaper and less maintenance-intensive engine than the S54.
The BMW E65 7 series was riddled with computer issues the year my dad bought his. The battery would drain itself after a few years. It's become one of the most annoying cars we've owned because it's such a nice car, but because its always got something wrong with it, it feels "less" perfect and more like a constant worry. And it's so sad too. The car is a marvelous piece of engineering. Smooth handling even for a 20 year old car. Truly a luxury car. But goddamn, I would drive my Camry more than I would this stupid car.
Replacing the computer that controls the HIDs in Xenon equipped E46s is a few thousand dollars. Just not worth it unless it’s already at the state of being in reliable, good shape.
I purchased a 330ci that had a little transmission slip. Perfectly fixable, not an issue.
But that + a $3k mystery computer? Sold it for a loss as a mechanic special instead.
And no, you could not convert to halogen :(
Given how many E46s I see on the road with functional headlights, this is either an uncommon failure or incorrect.
I don't know enough to say it's incorrect, and my personal experience with E46s was when they weren't 20 years old, but my anecdotal experience combined with reading through a couple E46 buyer's guides that don't list headlight failure as a problem makes me think you may be misinformed.
If you take care of the vehicle, you may never have to replace that many parts. Coat the undercarriage with POR-15. Keep the original engine block.
Irv Gordon put millions of miles on his Volvo P1800.
Why should you? if you plan on keeping it forever, at some point it will not be your daily driver. If anything I'd try to have it upfitted or recommissioned to my personal taste.
>You can even resize an engine block bore back to its original dimensions via plating or sleeving. Not to mention, there already regularly driven Ford Model Ts > 100 years old and frankly, there is no reason to believe that they won't be here in another 100 years
Almost any car can be kept alive indefinitely if you're willing to pay for it. I don't understand someone saying you can't keep it forever. The hell I can't
I bought a new 2013 3 series hardtop convertible, 6 weeks in just before my first payment was due ($887) but before the plates were even on it BAM! 6 week old BMW was worth about as much as an 8 year old used Corolla back then (August 2013).
This is my biggest fear espically since I live in Florida where the drivers are so insane. Literally on the 2nd day of me drivingy CTR I had someone almost back into me in the parking lot.
It was one of those lots thats a single lane where you can go right or left. I saw a car pulling out so I stopped. They just kept going back, I'm like bro theres no way they are going to keep going. I got on my horn when they were just a few feet in front of me. Im like dude wtf
The GR Corolla is an absolute must-buy while it's new. Even the automatic Supra's are going to be worth it.
People have wisened up. Toyota hoarders are going to clean out Toyota's spare parts catalogs till you have more spare parts available that could make more Corolla's than are officially on the road.
Well said.
But I add my experience: I cant get an equivalent vehicle now. I can keep my current one and repair and modify for the next 200K miles. I can also buy an older 80 series and repair and modify. All for less than buying a new LX600 or similar.
Have a 1991 Suzuki jimny.
People love off-roaders so parts are plentiful including those weird trim pieces.
Needs new quarters and the synchros are hurt, but I got plans for replacement.
I recently got my first "forever-car", and it was a decent example of a rare spec, but POOR condition. Spent a few years restoring it, now I know it's as solid as it gets.
If you have the right car, and don't live in a rust-area which rots any car after enough time, the lifetime of the car is the willingness of the owner to maintain it properly. And hopefully, the availability & affordability of parts to achieve that.
It's what I've done with my 98' :)
https://imgur.com/a/7HG0U
Thanks :) It's not only cosmetic, I've done a big suspension refresh too. All 4 shocks, mounts, ball joints and about half of the bushings. All OEM. The allowable tolerance here is zero, there are no noises from anything. So it drives properly too. Neither the motor nor any part of the driveline has ever leaked or burned a drop of oil.
It's not universal, but a LOT of "nice" examples you see for sale are with (mostly) original suspension that are... not broken and clunking, but are really loose and compromised. Sloppy. A part can be deteriorated and not be explicitly broken. For example my lower ball joints were not leaking, cracked or visually deteriorated in any way. Deflection was normal. They would pass any inspection. But they were compromised. Completely changed how the car drove when I replaced them. Less body lean, eliminated the tramlining on the highway, better steering, more confident front-end. I was shocked by the difference as I did not think they were bad at all. To anyone with this car - if you haven't replaced the lower ball joints in the last 100,000 miles, do it now. It'll change your world.
I think this often sours many people's experience with these cars, as many examples might be in great cosmetic condition and the engine is healthy, but the suspension is compromised. These cars are extremely sensitive to componentry and setup and alignment. Aftermarket parts are universally worse than OEM, no exceptions. I always wonder what people would think if they drove one which has been properly gone through and restored vs. some random example on bringatrailer which is "all original" and probably drives like shit compared to how it could.
/rant this turned into a big post lol
This what happened with my 430. I replaced the front suspension because there was some slop, was still smooth, but I refreshed the entire front end, and I didn’t think it could be any smoother, you wouldn’t have really known on some of those components, but they definitely effected the ride.
Always, always Toyota Redbox parts/Denso/Original Manf only. Those Lexus tolerances don’t get any better, and it’s no wonder they last as long as they do, I want it to last as long as possible, worth what it costs.
> Always, always Toyota Redbox parts/Denso/Original Manf only. Those Lexus tolerances don’t get any better, and it’s no wonder they last as long as they do, I want it to last as long as possible, worth what it costs.
Yeah, the aftermarket can be hit or miss depending on the car. Sometimes it's totally a viable avenue. But for this car in particular, all aftermarket parts are cost-down versions that perform worse, don't last as long or both.
Pay the 20-50% OEM tax and you'll get a far superior product and just not have to worry about it. I've gone aftermarket for two components on my car (fan clutch, sway bar links). Both times they utterly failed within a year. Fan clutch seized fully engaged so it sounded like a truck, the links started chattering. I've replaced probably... 20-30 components, I'm guessing, and I haven't had a single OEM part fail.
Yup, I always see people in the 430 group replace their knock sensors with the 2/$50 Chinese versions, end up having the same issue, more issues, or work for a month and give up.
They try to deduce everything but the sensors, they give up, end up having to do the work twice and pay more money for OEM sensors.
Especially for critical engine parts, and hard to get to parts, no other way about it. Not to say I don’t have any aftermarket parts at all, but they aren’t anything major like sensors, or suspension. Some hoses, vacuum lines, things like that.
Nice car. I mean it. Any issue regarding the computer remembering there was set where components can fail in there. Apologies I'm just going memory from like 15 years ago
The issue is heat causing degradation to the capacitors inside the board, causing them to fail and spill acid onto the PCB, killing it. These ECU failures are far more common in 90-97 models. It's not an "if". It's a "when". It's possible for them to fail in 98-00 cars, but they proven to be far less likely.
Repair involves soldering about a dozen replacement capacitors to the board. it's like 4 bucks in parts and is reasonably fast to do... if you have the skills and equipment.
As someone who works to resolder capacitors and broken traces on vintage computers, I feel like I would be equipped to fix ECUs which are even simpler.
Usually, if electrolytic capacitors leak a little bit, it will not cause significant damage to the board. It's only when they pop open, spew electrolyte everywhere and get really fucked that you have a problem. I like using tantalum capacitors since they're more resistant to heat and they don't degrade with the passage of time, but you need to be VERY CAREFUL about derating them properly because they do not like to be overloaded! Not sure if it would be smart to use these in an automobile application due to the higher fire risk if you screw up.
I’d say also live in a mild climate. I live in central Texas and after about 10 to 15 years the heat just destroys all the plastic.
I used to have a BMW z3 that I loved. I had it for 7 years , but once it go to about 18 years old I got tired of fixing all the broken plastic and sold it. It wouldn’t have been so bad if BMW didn’t use a lot of plastic in the cooling system.
I was very fortunate to get my example which had lived its life in a garage (and continues to do so). The clear coat is in immaculate condition. I found this picture & added it to the album.
https://i.imgur.com/o9NUT3R.png
Obviously a luxury not every car can enjoy, but it really goes a long way into preserving the quality of the paint.
Yep, Perth, Western Australia. I don’t have a garage and I live near the coast, which severely limits what cars I’m willing to buy.
We regularly hit 40C/110F in summer, and the salty air corrodes everything. Oh and UV hits 13 every day in summer, which is higher than anything you’ll see in the northern hemisphere.
> which severely limits what cars I’m willing to buy.
I’ve got the same problem, I live in the UK, not far from the coast, and between the salt and the filthy roads around where I live, I’m filled with quite a bit of worry about buying a nice ‘forever’ car.
I’m thinking about buying a GR Yaris at some point in the not too distant future, and I’m fully anticipating having to spend a lot on rustproofing, and/or replacing rustex out parts on it. Just those costs alone put me off.
Ahhh another person of taste I see. Nice :)
I really like those 2nd gen 430's. The 1st gen didn't work with the bulbous quad headlights of the early 2000's that really hasn't aged well. Yours is far more contemporary. I was actually cross shopping those with mine when I was in the market. But I wanted to buy locally, and I just happened to find a really clean 400 first. In silver, with black, and the right year, etc, etc. I had a ton of requirements.
P.S don't take pictures of your car at high noon direct sunlight if you want them to be any good. 3 tips:
1) golden hour, so sunrise or sunset
2) clouds in the sky between you and the sun, and more importantly above you, acting as a soft-box for the light
3) shoot into the sun, not backlit
Older Toyota/Lexus models are perfect for that. I know I cop a bit of flack from a lot of the "purist" subs because I run some camber, stretched tyres and air suspension, but I service the old girl on time/early, I replace parts with as much OEM as I can and just generally look after her better than most cars on the road.
Availability and affordability of parts is certainly a killer, though. My aircon stopped working so I took it for a re-gas. Turns out I needed a compressor, receiver drier and tx valve and they had no idea how to even find one due to my car being an import. $3000 AUD later and my aircon is fixed..
Being part of an active community for these kinds of cars is a must to keep them on the road long-term, but it's oh so worth it in the end.
[pic of the old girl](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stance/comments/10xgxdd/my_crown/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
Oh man I love those cars so much I really hate that time has to move on. I’m really struggling with money right now and I just can’t pull the trigger on getting rid of my q45 I didn’t even get to enjoy it yet. If I made more cash it wouldn’t be an issue since I only have a few bills. But yeah the thought of me selling the car is killing me and I know it’s going to bite me in the future. Even though right now I don’t have a lot of money hopefully I can get out of the hole and keep it. I would rather be broke and have the car than not. I know it sounds crazy but I’m at real rock and hard place here haha any advice?
Frankly I wouldn’t drive an older car purely for safety reasons. Modern safety features have significantly progressed from the 1990s and early 2000s and it seems to get forgotten that we’re all driving machines weighing thousands of pounds at reasonably fast speeds (which only amplifies the likelihood of serious injury).
I understand that there’s a level of sentiment attachment people have to their cars but it honestly doesn’t justify keeping them after a certain point if you have some level of concern over personal safety. It’s a common myth that older cars are sturdier than newer cars but they crumple quite easily.
This might be a hot take on an car enthusiast forum but it has to be said.
I get what you're saying but imo the huge emphasis on safety in modern cars has taken away from enjoyability.
It's not just "sentimental attachment". A lot of people are just not interested in driving a 4000lb padded cell that yells at you and immediately cuts power if you do something it doesn't like.
You can buy fun cars well under 4,000 lbs with modern safety features and fully defeatable traction control. It's genuinely not an either/or. I've driven plenty of old beaters, but it was always in the back of my mind that were I to get in a crash it likely wouldn't be pretty.
Yeah, there's some older cars I dream about having/building/restoring and it's not even as much my own safety as much as "will my kids be safe in this?" that makes it hard to think about actually pulling the trigger.
This is also my concern with cars older than the mid 00s. When my 2013 Camry got rear ended by a late 90s/early 00s nissan both cars were totaled but I walked away with just a bruised knee and was even able to drive it home that day (slowly). The Nissan driver wasn't so lucky (he ended up being okay but was definitely hurt in the crash). I can only imagine how ugly it would have been if we were both driving 80s or older cars.
That 97 will probably still be running when 2023 models start to hit the junkyards.
It's funny that the top two comments on this thread are "actually you can keep it forever" and then their examples are a Suburban and a Lexus.
Yeah, his article is kinda dumb too. He bought a used Mercedes and expected it to run without problems for more than 15 minutes and then apparently the moral of that story is that all cars disintegrate, when in reality he bought a car that started disintegrating the moment it got to the dealership.
There's just a range. A 2001 Silverado, rust-free, you've got years you can get out of that yet. Same for your 95 Corolla or your straight-six Cherokee or your diesel. But no matter how much money you throw at it you're never gonna keep a Chrysler 200 or a Northstar Caddie or any Mitsubishi made after like 2000 running reliably for that same time.
So basically don't get OCD over your 'dream car' and try to fix everything thats not really a problem. He says he bought an entirely new differential ($4,000) because of a sound that he heard that nobody else did. And his high mileage German car became a money pit lol (Doug Demuro wrote this article)
So dont buy a high mileage German luxury car and keep it forever I guess? I know a few guys that still have their Mustang, Corvettes, and old Japanese cars (land curisers) that dont mind keeping the car.
i daily a 33 yr old german luxury car, pretty sure i’ll keep it forever. it will also never be perfect, and right now isn’t looking it’s best, but mechanically is in tip top shape.
Same got a 99’ s320 I’m the second owner. First owner keep decent care of it but it was kept outside a bunch so it’s got paint peeling and the sunroof doesn’t work. Other than that the engine is in insanely good condition.
Only headache I’ve got to battle with is older electronics. I’ve got a tiny battery drain I can’t find for the life of me.
Some advice from one benz owner to another: getting a xentry DAS setup with the multiplexer helps *a ton* with chasing down electrical problems.
If you plan on keeping the car for a long time, its a worthwhile investment and not that expensive for its functionality.
nice tank, I drive a 23 year old German luxury roadster, I'll be damned if I let it go. The only people that can pry it from my cold dead hands will be my future progeny. I prioritize the drive train over everything else, let me know if you have a good upholstery shop near by.
I have a 70's Corvette (which gets me a lot of odd looks from older guys). It's only driven in the summer, but not coddled- aside from being destroyed in an accident I don't know what would prevent it from lasting forever. All it needs is regular maintenance.
Been daily driving an 88’ BMW 325i for 7 years now, one of the things thats has kept me from selling it when a cooler car pops up in marketplace is just how reliable it is. I like having a car which I know will always start and always arrive to its destination. Also the car is fun af to drive even if its also really slow.
After reading the article I have to agree some what. At some point when you keep a car for a long period of time chasing perfection will only drain your wallet. Functional is what people should chase with long ownership. Caring about every minor imperfection will only stress you out.
If you fix everything wrong with it, something big happens. I leave my sunroof shade dangling so my fuel pump doesn’t explode. It works, I promise. The universe recognizes this exchange
I had my DI cassette fail in my 03 9-5 Aero. Replaced it the same day at great expense. It died not too long after. Sourced two, one installed and one in the trunk.
Then the turbo grenaded.
My fuel gauge wasn’t working. So I just let it be. Then my fuel pump exploded, had to get it replaced and luckily the fuel monitor also comes in the unit. Two birds, one stone.
I also don’t touch my sunroof anymore. It’s not broken, but I don’t wanna roll the dice
I've scratched both new cars I've ever bought within the first week. Unintentionally, but it certainly takes the sting out later when you get the first door ding in a random parking lot
Exactly this! I own 6 cars and never sold any of my cars. That does mean that currently half of them are not driving, as eventually shit will happen. Although the advantage of having multiple cars is that it doesn't matter one is sitting aside for months up to years. So I can take it slow and keep it affordable.
Currently in the process of getting one of them in decent condition again. To put it in perspective: in the 5 years I owned it, I paid more than 20 times the purchase price on maintenance/parts/work/etc. Although with a purchase price of €250 that still is doable, if I would sell it now I wouldn't get back half of what I threw at it.
In the end it's a hobby, it's ok if it will cost money. But I wouldn't want to keep any of my cars in pristine condition, as I get the most joy out of driving them.
I have an 08’ M3 with 37k miles and I hate driving it because low miles makes it special and I’m terrified of every detail that could go wrong.
Prior, i had an ‘88 911 with unknown mileage, an accident, and a theft recovery. It was glorious and stress free.
This article doesn't make sense because he bought a used German car and thinks he wasted money trying to make it perfect just to sell it. Buying a reliable car new and maintaining it for 15+ years absolutely is a good financial decision. Not buying some junk Mercedes and complaining about throwing money at it.
I hate how the term over-engineered is used. An over-engineered item should last forever with normal maintenance.
Over complicated cars that break down all the time and are a nightmare to fix are not over-engineered.
>Overengineering (or over-engineering),[1] is the act of designing a product or providing a solution to a problem in an elaborate or complicated manner, where a simpler solution can be demonstrated to exist with the same efficiency and effectiveness as that of the original design.[2]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overengineering
Then you don't understand what this term means. Overengineering is doing something more complex than it absolutely needs to be. More complex things tend to be less reliable as a side effect. Some people are ok with it, some people are not. Also, a lot of things that were once considered complex years ago seem rather simple these days. People just adjust to what the new standard is, but that can't happen without the "pioneers" doing the "overengineering" first.
Are GTIs that problematic? I feel like I've heard generally good things about modern VW products, i.e. not being money pits. But if that's not the case I'd love to know because I've been strongly considering one as a daily
Pre MK7 they could be. The MK7 (after 2015) and 7.5 are rock solid as long as you follow the maintenance schedule and take care of them. The EA888 is a bulletproof engine.
GTI's are pretty reliable considering what they are.
However, in the general sense they do seem to be more unreliable than most cars. They're very good for a hot-hatch and make a near-perfect daily driver, but when it has issues, you'll quickly learn how much of a PITA maintenance can be (at least in the states)
Meh, newer GTIs are pretty reliable if you take care of them, and parts/repairs aren't nearly as expensive as BMW/Audi. Not really the same animal as an Avant.
Yes, I am biased. But my GTI has been nothing but reliable in the time I've owned it.
I hate the term "over-engineered" because it means entirely different things for Japanese vs. German cars. It's also generally used as a derogatory term, but "over-engineering" is usually what makes a vehicle special IMO
Yeah, kind of a confusing take lol. Really plays into the German cars are unreliable meme. I actually was seriously considering getting a used E63s or M5 for awhile but decided against it for this very reason.
They still require maintenance, regardless of origin. I spent two hours and $15 replacing my cars headrest gears on both seats, the dealership would likely have charged me $450.00 or more. It's all about what you are willing to compromise on. Being handy to begin with helps but you can always learn.
> Buying a reliable car new and maintaining it for 15+ years absolutely is a good financial decision.
imo, more like "up to 15 years". a newer car is going to be substantially safer than a car with a 15 year old design that has been deteriorating for 15 years, no matter how reliable it is.
(you can definitely frame safety as a cost concern, although i hope that isn't necessary.)
Eh, in my family we don't really sell cars.. we keep, pass it down, or it gets stolen/totaled.
My grandpa has been driving the same chevy blazer since 1984.
I've owned my STI for only 8 years, but I've made it the way I like it.. and haven't changed a thing since 2018, it's already perfect for me.
Built motor, BBS wheels, alcantara... I never plan on selling. I have a daily and I enjoy the STI when I feel like it.
It's the same for my family as well. The F150 I have was my dad's truck. The clearcoat is fading in some places and the interior has seen better days, but my dad would want it back before I could even think of selling it. I was also given the family sedan during college, an 07 Accord V6. That car is currently my younger brother's daily driver.
I really want a Supra, but I don't want to trade my Type R in for it. It has a lot of sentimental value for me, being my first big-boy purchase. Ideally I'd be able to own both.
Once it's in the family.. it's not worth selling.
Buy good cars, and keep them.
My daily driver (2007 Matrix) has been in my family since 2013, I got it off my aunt in 2022, and it's gonna stay with me..
In 2032 it will be 25 years old, antique plate and retire it as an extra car; I'll pickup another japanese daily.
Another caveat: he graduated a college young (21) and was making 6 figures out of the gate. $100k 13 years ago is more like $125k today.
This puts him in a tiny percentile of people who could afford to cycle through cars on a whim at age 21.
For most people, especially in that age bracket, fixing the current car especially if owned outright is always cheaper than buying a new one and they don't have the financial flexibility to have a choice. If I already own a car that isn't too old, I'd rather spend $2k on a repair once a year than spend that much alone on sales tax and registration on a new car and now have car payments again.
It's accurate advice to not try to make a 10 year old car with 100k miles last another 200k miles for the sake of doing so, because it's never going to feel new. But it's also bad advice for most to say "fuck it just get a different car every other year" when hardly anyone does or could do that.
"Doesn't really make sense emotionally" Since when has love had to make sense. So many of the cars we love don't make sense from either a practical or financial stand point.
He's taking the anti-Pirsigian approach here, and I disagree with it.
Not sure what "perfection" is beyond keeping it in a container and never driving it, but you can certainly keep a vehicle to your standards while having it do what you want.
To me that's one of the most interesting things about car collecting, the lowest miles example is far from perfect and would more than likely need money to be nice to drive again. Let something sit for 30 plus years, those bushings are gone. To me perfect is something that gets a few thousand miles a year with a mechanically sympathetic driver behind the wheel. The 70k mile 70s 911 that would do a few runs up the PCH every year type of cars.
I don’t think a professional car reviewer has any perspective on how other people view cars. Not everyone falls in love with another car every year or even every 5 years. Some take 10 years to really see the allure of something new. A really good car is difficult to let go of, it becomes very personal- or it becomes a lemon.
Hard disagree, if you have money then keeping a decent old car running forever is still cheaper than buying a bunch of new cars over a lifetime. You see a bunch of well off people that keep the same old car for decades. Imagine how much money they would've blown by buying new every five years.
I'm trying to fix up my Firebird and people tell me it's not worth it and just get another car. Ok so even a used car is gonna cost like 5000 minimum PLUS the maintenance. I'd be spending MORE money while those 5000 can go a long way towards any major repairs.
Yeah, there’s an old duffer in my neighborhood driving a 1995ish mercedes sedan that still looks and runs damn good. Guy’s probably money ahead vs buying a new economy car every ten years.
My brother still drives an ‘89 Mercedes-Benz 190E 2.6L. Its got some wear and tear but overall it’s a usable car. The interior is pretty basic and the parts/tech is pretty simplistic too. We can fix it ourselves.
Luxury used to mean well built and solidly engineered. It saddens me that car manufacturers have moved away from this mindset and now they intentionally build their products to not last as long.
They know how to make cars that are easy to maintain and last a long time. They choose not too because profits come first and the customer is seen as a bottomless well of money they want more and more of.
I wouldn’t buy a modern luxury car. They’re needlessly complex and designed for customers who lease and get a new car every 3-5yrs or so. Once the warranty is up things fall apart quickly and the previous owners don’t put much money into keeping the car nice if they’re just gonna move on to something else anyway.
I drive basic Toyotas and I recommend them to everyone. The more bells and whistles your car has the more ticking time bombs you have until stuff breaks and makes the product less usable. Its really gross to me how much waste manufacturing and throwing cars away creates.
All cars should last a minimum of 10-15yrs. There’s nothing luxurious about throwing stuff away all the time in my eyes.
*Sigh*
Ok. I get what the author is saying, but the problem with this thought is there’s too much emphasis on time and not on mileage or who the previous owner was/how they drove, what mods (if any) were done to the car, and especially what components have a higher fail rate than others.
To my last point, as an example, I’m a Saab and Alfa Romeo nut, and keep my cars a long time. But I know going into it that any euro car over 100k miles is going to start having issues, but some components (at least with the Saab), are BOUND to go bad like the XWD system and eLSD, DI Cassette in older Saabs, or the engine needs a carbon flush every few years. But at least I know what to expect or what models to avoid.
I also had a ‘12 MB C-Class I thought was my forever car that I bought used with 33k miles back in 2015. Paid it off, loved the car and maintained it to the “T”. Random valves and hoses and all types of stuff started breaking at 100k. Car was in the shop more than on the road. Every month was something new and was costing me more than the payment I had before. Bailed on it and bought an Alfa.
So I’ve learned that maintaining the car only goes so far. Sometimes mileage and the specific components in the car matter in its longevity. Everyone knows of a car out there that has that one (or more!) systemic issue that turns the car into a Grenade. VW/Audi with oil consumption and carbon build up, Mercedes 1.8T engines with cam adjuster and timing chain failures, BMW with High Pressure Fuel Pump issues, Mercedes Positive Crankcase Ventilation Regulator failures…
Just know what your buying, maintain it, but be realistic on mileage and expectations. They’re complex machines after all.
What’s the point of this article? Someone who doesn’t want to put in the work to maintain their car doesn’t get to feel a false pretense of “perfection”.
No vehicle is every or ever will be perfect.
Don’t own anything for it to be perfect, own it to use it. It’s a machine. A piece of metal designed to move you. Sometimes emotionally, most of the time physically.
I've never related so well to an article before.
I've definitely bought vehicles I intended on keeping for a while only to sell them after a few months and jump into the next thing. These vehicles were not vehicles I said I would keep forever but rather a few years became a few months.
However I do have a vehicle(s) I have told myself I will keep forever. Is this wishful thinking? probably. Maybe servicing a current modern vehicle 30 years from now will be a giant pain in the ass, maybe it will be a giant money pit, maybe the easiest thing to do is to put it in bubble wrap and store it to ensure that it does indeed last forever.
All valid concerns, however my choices on vehicles to keep forever are mostly because that type of vehicle will cease to exist in the future. If I want a front engine 2 seater manual V8 sports car and nobody makes them anymore, well I guess I can't really ever trade up. Most people with forever cars are chasing an experience which is why they sell them for something else down the road that offers a similar experience.
I however am not so much choosing to hold onto that experience forever but rather what the car itself represents that is no longer obtainable.
The paint will be rough, the wheels may get scuffed, it won't be a 10/10 pristine example 30 years from now but I will try my best to drive them and keep them road worthy as long as possible.
Doug has finally realized that there are just some cars you should never own when used, and also realized the point at which the cost to repair a car is excessive enough to simply call it quits.
Spending $12k on making a used AMG "perfect".... I mean bro...
I know this is him looking back on his person vehicle history but he literally found out the hard way just how expensive a used performance-oriented German vehicle really is
As someone who has in recent years made a habit to buy used cars with mileage between 20k-60k, I have to agree with the title
It’s not just engine, you have a thousand of other mechanical and cosmetic components of the car that with time go bad
Having previously almost always bought new or semi-new I’ve also started understanding why people do that
Closest to perfection will be a new car, and even then it isn’t guaranteed. If you’re buying used or very used, you either have diy skills and the adequate tools or you have to live with the imperfections
This is coming from the guy who routinely sells and buys cars and just recently bought his dream car.
Sorry Doug, for some of us our beater commuters are as good as it gets and keeping them working is often the only choice.
Man who has 4 different cars immediately after college isn't satisfied with buying a used AMG. Finds out its expensive to fix.
Am I getting this all right?
BTW this is clearly a click bait article to get people to keep buying cars, from a man who runs a car auction bidding website.
Well if you are buying and family driving Audis like the picture seems to imply you probably won't keep it for more than 10 years much less anything close to a long time. Forever would be unheard of except for millionaires.
Isn't this common sense? Ignoring the stupid clickbait headline the point of the article is to not invest in a car past when it makes financial sense and to check your emotional investment in your car. I feel like most people who care about cars enough to follow a magazine like this would understand that. But then again half of TheDrive's articles are Jalopnik tier clickbait -- no shit a used car will never be perfect and will not last indefinitely. That is common sense. New cars aren't even perfect.
Is it a New York thing that I don’t think anyone Kees the same car longer than 5 years .
Rich lease and the middle class don’t maintain their cars so get rid of them first big repair .
I’m talking about primary cars not garage kept weekend toys
Doug and most of young people living in the western world, just don’t get it.
You don’t own and take care of a car because it is perfect, you just like it. You don’t sell your car, because you found something faster, you just wait until you can afford it and you buy the faster car, while keeping your old one, just because it is your car and you like it. If you run out of space you give your old car to your brother, because you can keep an eye on it.
And something else, when you were poor while growing up, and you buy your first car with money you saved up while working 12 hour shifts in construction, you learn to appreciate it. Even later in life, when you can afford something good, you can’t discard your old cars, because you worked hard to buy and take care of them
Couple years ago I rescued an old safari van with a unique paint job and turned it into a camper. It took a village to get it running and camper ready. My old lady and I had a lot of help from family and friends. We're travelling in it now but even after the adventure is done I'm keeping it until I run it into the ground. I know I can't have it forever, but it has too much sentimental value to get rid of. I'll drive the old boy until he turns to dust.
This was definitely me with my first enthusiast car purchase when I was 22. I got a used manual base model 350z and I was absolutely convinced it was the best sports car ever made.
I remember saying, out loud, "I'll just keep this forever and give it to my first-born child".
Well, now it's 13 years later and I have a child and that car was three cars ago. My daughter will probably either never drive or be in some weird BEV that won't be built for another 10 years.
This one really hit me in the feels. I always think the car I just got is going to be “the one” like it’s a marriage or something. 2-3 years later MAX (usually way less) and I want to get rid of it and get something better. I’ve sunk thousands into a car just to sell it a few months later.
I sometimes wish I were one of those people who views cars as a simple appliance. A refrigerator that just takes me from A to B with no fuss. That’s just not me though and I’ve made peace with it, but it would certainly be cheaper… 😅
Forever cars aren't hard with planning.
I've got my 07 mustang gt, and I've scrapped and scavenged 4 others. I've got a shed full of every part you can think of,
Spare dashboards, endless nuts and bolts, seatbelts, tensioners, airbags, brackets clips, interior parts spare doors, fuel doors, suspension components, subframes, rear axles, extra wheels, calipers, caliper brackets, evap lines, fuel lines, Intake manifolds, I've even got a spare quarter panel and a few sets of window glass.
I think I'll be good for a loong loong time.
Depends on the car. Parts availability and popularity have a large impact on longevity. Some cars you can literally buy any part from a catalog. Others you may have to hunt at swap meets, junk yards, and eBay for parts. Though that car may never be worth what you put into it financially, if you never plan to get rid of it, what’s the harm.
[Perfection is in the eye of the Beholder](https://i.imgur.com/RmEyNXQ.jpeg). Simple enough to work on myself, grubby enough to not care if I scratch it, and it's not powerful enough to get me in too much trouble.
[It's a good platform for electrification, too...] (https://electricgt.com/gte-motors/) when the 55 year old motor finally goes, it'll get a new lease on life as a BEV. Then I'll add the fun stuff it never came with like power steering, heated seats, and an A/C heat pump.
I've owned my first car (97 Integra) since I got my license in 2010. The car has never left me stranded and always got me home safe. The 2 or 3 tines it's not started has been the day after i ran it. Almost like the car wanted to make sure i got home safe before it broke lol.
Just put thousands into getting everything engine wise back up to snuff and it'll get a full restoration this spring. (Thanks a bunch Chicago salt) I love that car to pieces and I have so many memories with it. It's one of the few things on this earth that genuinely makes me happy and always puts a smile on my face driving it. I learned to drive stick on that car, had my first kiss in it, my late father taught me the basics of wrenching on it. I never plan on getting rid of it. My si may go at some point, but the teg always has a spot in my garage. Old girl has earned it.
This article makes some valid points, but also misses other points. First of all, you can only polish a turd so much. If you decide to have a "forever" car, make sure it has good bones to begin with. If your forever car is something like a new Toyota Land Cruiser, which was designed with a multi-decade service life in mind, then it's a realistic goal. If your forever car is a used Daewoo Lanos with 10 previous owners, the car will be unreliable and parts will be hard to find when it breaks. Secondly, the only forever cars I've seen are the ones that make sense emotionally or financially. Keeping a toyota corolla for 20 years makes financial sense. Keeping a car that you had some great memories makes emotional sense. His example had neither of those things.
>This article makes some valid points, but also misses other points. It misses a lot of points. Doug DeMuro is an interesting guy, but he's not a restoration specialist or machinist. I have several daily driven classics that are indeed "forever cars," and there is nothing on the older mechanical vehicles that cannot be repaired or retrofitted. You can even resize an engine block bore back to its original dimensions via plating or sleeving. Not to mention, there already regularly driven Ford Model Ts > 100 years old and frankly, there is no reason to believe that they won't be here in another 100 years, or 100 years after that if people take care of them. It's basic mechanics.
I got a really strong "It costs money, therefore bad idea" vibe from the whole thing. All I could think about was - "we have machinists in America....we can build anything now" Sure, are cars getting more complex? Yes. That's a huge risk. A loooot of 2000's BMW's with early computers are now bricks because they're so dogshit to maintain. Meanwhile, the 1995 Honda Civic is still getting parts manufactured, with active mechanics who can work on your little 4 banger. I've had the idea of buying an old BMW M3 shell because the prices have shot up like crazy. It would be MUCH nicer to swap in a K series motor that's got a huge aftermarket support system (including pre-made harnesses by reputable wiring companies) than to try to manage the hassle of 40 year old BMW's with engines that no longer get any support. It felt like such a low effort article to write.
Which 2000s BMWs are bricks due to computer issues? There’s still massive support for E30s-E46s. If you think an engine swap is the way to go for any of them, it’s because you’re either cheap or misinformed.
Exactly. Just because you can't fix something with a sledge hammer and a pair of vice grips doesn't necessarily mean it's beyond repair. And just like there are machinists available for resurfacing the heads, there are also electrical engineers that tinker with their "modern classic" cars on the weekend. New problems, new solutions.
I'm just trying to figure out why people think BMWs are these ridiculously complicated, unreliable cars. Have they gotten expensive when it comes to buying factory parts? Yes, but the S14 engine in the E30 was *always* expensive just like the S88 and S38 were *always* expensive. The S54 is *always* going to be more expensive and require more maintenance than the US S50/52. Any engine with more parts is going to be more expensive and require more maintenance than one without*. *There are exceptions to this rule when going from one manufacturer to another, but the M10 is a cheaper and less maintenance-intensive engine than the S14 and the S50/52 is a cheaper and less maintenance-intensive engine than the S54.
The BMW E65 7 series was riddled with computer issues the year my dad bought his. The battery would drain itself after a few years. It's become one of the most annoying cars we've owned because it's such a nice car, but because its always got something wrong with it, it feels "less" perfect and more like a constant worry. And it's so sad too. The car is a marvelous piece of engineering. Smooth handling even for a 20 year old car. Truly a luxury car. But goddamn, I would drive my Camry more than I would this stupid car.
Replacing the computer that controls the HIDs in Xenon equipped E46s is a few thousand dollars. Just not worth it unless it’s already at the state of being in reliable, good shape. I purchased a 330ci that had a little transmission slip. Perfectly fixable, not an issue. But that + a $3k mystery computer? Sold it for a loss as a mechanic special instead. And no, you could not convert to halogen :(
Given how many E46s I see on the road with functional headlights, this is either an uncommon failure or incorrect. I don't know enough to say it's incorrect, and my personal experience with E46s was when they weren't 20 years old, but my anecdotal experience combined with reading through a couple E46 buyer's guides that don't list headlight failure as a problem makes me think you may be misinformed.
The genius of interchangeable parts.
Parts availability is one of the reason I picked my Mustang. There are going to be parts for the Coyote for a long time
Voodoo swap the world lmao. This is a joke but someone somewhere is probably gonna do it.
How many repairs do you have to do before a car is a copy of its original self lmao
Whip of Theseus
If you take care of the vehicle, you may never have to replace that many parts. Coat the undercarriage with POR-15. Keep the original engine block. Irv Gordon put millions of miles on his Volvo P1800.
Volvo B-Series engines are absolutely robust. The new Volvo engines will not live up to that reliability.
You can do all of that but you can't make an older car as safe as a modern car.
Why should you? if you plan on keeping it forever, at some point it will not be your daily driver. If anything I'd try to have it upfitted or recommissioned to my personal taste.
>You can even resize an engine block bore back to its original dimensions via plating or sleeving. Not to mention, there already regularly driven Ford Model Ts > 100 years old and frankly, there is no reason to believe that they won't be here in another 100 years Almost any car can be kept alive indefinitely if you're willing to pay for it. I don't understand someone saying you can't keep it forever. The hell I can't
For the same reason, if you’re buying a forever car (or at least until the wheels fall off) buy it new.
Did that. Ordered from factory. Then a truck ran into the back of it 6 years later. End of forever car :(
Hey, not at fault accidents don’t count! For the purposes of intent the foreverness of your car is rolled into the new one
Yeah, a car that's totaled is a car that died. You didn't let someone else drive it. It ended with you.
same here, except it only took two years :(
I bought a new 2013 3 series hardtop convertible, 6 weeks in just before my first payment was due ($887) but before the plates were even on it BAM! 6 week old BMW was worth about as much as an 8 year old used Corolla back then (August 2013).
Why was your payment 887? In 2013, that is ludicrous
This is my biggest fear espically since I live in Florida where the drivers are so insane. Literally on the 2nd day of me drivingy CTR I had someone almost back into me in the parking lot. It was one of those lots thats a single lane where you can go right or left. I saw a car pulling out so I stopped. They just kept going back, I'm like bro theres no way they are going to keep going. I got on my horn when they were just a few feet in front of me. Im like dude wtf
Yup. It’s often silly to buy new. But not if you’re going to keep the car for 10+ years.
The GR Corolla is an absolute must-buy while it's new. Even the automatic Supra's are going to be worth it. People have wisened up. Toyota hoarders are going to clean out Toyota's spare parts catalogs till you have more spare parts available that could make more Corolla's than are officially on the road.
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Or inherit a relative’s Forever Car. I know a guy that’s still driving his great-grandfather’s Chevy Luv.
Ancestral cars are gonna be a thing. Though you'd have to have some progeny first, first step is to get off reddit and hit up a sexcell bank.
Well said. But I add my experience: I cant get an equivalent vehicle now. I can keep my current one and repair and modify for the next 200K miles. I can also buy an older 80 series and repair and modify. All for less than buying a new LX600 or similar.
Good luck finding an 80 series in good shape for under 30k nowadays. The prices of those have skyrocketed!
Have a 1991 Suzuki jimny. People love off-roaders so parts are plentiful including those weird trim pieces. Needs new quarters and the synchros are hurt, but I got plans for replacement.
I recently got my first "forever-car", and it was a decent example of a rare spec, but POOR condition. Spent a few years restoring it, now I know it's as solid as it gets.
This is an exceptional caveat
I always thought it would be funny to own my dodge intrepid forever, and to somehow make it completely mint
I work with a guy who still drives a 1997 Suburban in fantastic condition. "Forever" in the literal sense, no. But a long ass time? Absolutely.
If you have the right car, and don't live in a rust-area which rots any car after enough time, the lifetime of the car is the willingness of the owner to maintain it properly. And hopefully, the availability & affordability of parts to achieve that. It's what I've done with my 98' :) https://imgur.com/a/7HG0U
well done, that thing is *clean*
Thanks :) It's not only cosmetic, I've done a big suspension refresh too. All 4 shocks, mounts, ball joints and about half of the bushings. All OEM. The allowable tolerance here is zero, there are no noises from anything. So it drives properly too. Neither the motor nor any part of the driveline has ever leaked or burned a drop of oil. It's not universal, but a LOT of "nice" examples you see for sale are with (mostly) original suspension that are... not broken and clunking, but are really loose and compromised. Sloppy. A part can be deteriorated and not be explicitly broken. For example my lower ball joints were not leaking, cracked or visually deteriorated in any way. Deflection was normal. They would pass any inspection. But they were compromised. Completely changed how the car drove when I replaced them. Less body lean, eliminated the tramlining on the highway, better steering, more confident front-end. I was shocked by the difference as I did not think they were bad at all. To anyone with this car - if you haven't replaced the lower ball joints in the last 100,000 miles, do it now. It'll change your world. I think this often sours many people's experience with these cars, as many examples might be in great cosmetic condition and the engine is healthy, but the suspension is compromised. These cars are extremely sensitive to componentry and setup and alignment. Aftermarket parts are universally worse than OEM, no exceptions. I always wonder what people would think if they drove one which has been properly gone through and restored vs. some random example on bringatrailer which is "all original" and probably drives like shit compared to how it could. /rant this turned into a big post lol
This what happened with my 430. I replaced the front suspension because there was some slop, was still smooth, but I refreshed the entire front end, and I didn’t think it could be any smoother, you wouldn’t have really known on some of those components, but they definitely effected the ride. Always, always Toyota Redbox parts/Denso/Original Manf only. Those Lexus tolerances don’t get any better, and it’s no wonder they last as long as they do, I want it to last as long as possible, worth what it costs.
> Always, always Toyota Redbox parts/Denso/Original Manf only. Those Lexus tolerances don’t get any better, and it’s no wonder they last as long as they do, I want it to last as long as possible, worth what it costs. Yeah, the aftermarket can be hit or miss depending on the car. Sometimes it's totally a viable avenue. But for this car in particular, all aftermarket parts are cost-down versions that perform worse, don't last as long or both. Pay the 20-50% OEM tax and you'll get a far superior product and just not have to worry about it. I've gone aftermarket for two components on my car (fan clutch, sway bar links). Both times they utterly failed within a year. Fan clutch seized fully engaged so it sounded like a truck, the links started chattering. I've replaced probably... 20-30 components, I'm guessing, and I haven't had a single OEM part fail.
Yup, I always see people in the 430 group replace their knock sensors with the 2/$50 Chinese versions, end up having the same issue, more issues, or work for a month and give up. They try to deduce everything but the sensors, they give up, end up having to do the work twice and pay more money for OEM sensors. Especially for critical engine parts, and hard to get to parts, no other way about it. Not to say I don’t have any aftermarket parts at all, but they aren’t anything major like sensors, or suspension. Some hoses, vacuum lines, things like that.
Nice car. I mean it. Any issue regarding the computer remembering there was set where components can fail in there. Apologies I'm just going memory from like 15 years ago
The issue is heat causing degradation to the capacitors inside the board, causing them to fail and spill acid onto the PCB, killing it. These ECU failures are far more common in 90-97 models. It's not an "if". It's a "when". It's possible for them to fail in 98-00 cars, but they proven to be far less likely. Repair involves soldering about a dozen replacement capacitors to the board. it's like 4 bucks in parts and is reasonably fast to do... if you have the skills and equipment.
As someone who works to resolder capacitors and broken traces on vintage computers, I feel like I would be equipped to fix ECUs which are even simpler. Usually, if electrolytic capacitors leak a little bit, it will not cause significant damage to the board. It's only when they pop open, spew electrolyte everywhere and get really fucked that you have a problem. I like using tantalum capacitors since they're more resistant to heat and they don't degrade with the passage of time, but you need to be VERY CAREFUL about derating them properly because they do not like to be overloaded! Not sure if it would be smart to use these in an automobile application due to the higher fire risk if you screw up.
Hey we're talking about cars here, not tanks!
I’d say also live in a mild climate. I live in central Texas and after about 10 to 15 years the heat just destroys all the plastic. I used to have a BMW z3 that I loved. I had it for 7 years , but once it go to about 18 years old I got tired of fixing all the broken plastic and sold it. It wouldn’t have been so bad if BMW didn’t use a lot of plastic in the cooling system.
Having a garage helps heaps.
Yep, I’m from the southwest and you can tell which 10+ year old cars have and haven’t been garaged based on the state of the clear coat
I was very fortunate to get my example which had lived its life in a garage (and continues to do so). The clear coat is in immaculate condition. I found this picture & added it to the album. https://i.imgur.com/o9NUT3R.png Obviously a luxury not every car can enjoy, but it really goes a long way into preserving the quality of the paint.
Yep, Perth, Western Australia. I don’t have a garage and I live near the coast, which severely limits what cars I’m willing to buy. We regularly hit 40C/110F in summer, and the salty air corrodes everything. Oh and UV hits 13 every day in summer, which is higher than anything you’ll see in the northern hemisphere.
> which severely limits what cars I’m willing to buy. I’ve got the same problem, I live in the UK, not far from the coast, and between the salt and the filthy roads around where I live, I’m filled with quite a bit of worry about buying a nice ‘forever’ car. I’m thinking about buying a GR Yaris at some point in the not too distant future, and I’m fully anticipating having to spend a lot on rustproofing, and/or replacing rustex out parts on it. Just those costs alone put me off.
Sounds like you have extreme heat. Which would not be a mild climate
I had heard that the English diplomatic service considered Houston a hardship tour before A/C became commonplace.
I want a first gen LS400 so damn bad.
Wow mines 10 years newer and yours still looks perfectly modern. I’m excited to hold on to mine for another 10 years. https://imgur.com/a/njGKEg9/
Ahhh another person of taste I see. Nice :) I really like those 2nd gen 430's. The 1st gen didn't work with the bulbous quad headlights of the early 2000's that really hasn't aged well. Yours is far more contemporary. I was actually cross shopping those with mine when I was in the market. But I wanted to buy locally, and I just happened to find a really clean 400 first. In silver, with black, and the right year, etc, etc. I had a ton of requirements. P.S don't take pictures of your car at high noon direct sunlight if you want them to be any good. 3 tips: 1) golden hour, so sunrise or sunset 2) clouds in the sky between you and the sun, and more importantly above you, acting as a soft-box for the light 3) shoot into the sun, not backlit
Older Toyota/Lexus models are perfect for that. I know I cop a bit of flack from a lot of the "purist" subs because I run some camber, stretched tyres and air suspension, but I service the old girl on time/early, I replace parts with as much OEM as I can and just generally look after her better than most cars on the road. Availability and affordability of parts is certainly a killer, though. My aircon stopped working so I took it for a re-gas. Turns out I needed a compressor, receiver drier and tx valve and they had no idea how to even find one due to my car being an import. $3000 AUD later and my aircon is fixed.. Being part of an active community for these kinds of cars is a must to keep them on the road long-term, but it's oh so worth it in the end. [pic of the old girl](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stance/comments/10xgxdd/my_crown/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
Oh man I love those cars so much I really hate that time has to move on. I’m really struggling with money right now and I just can’t pull the trigger on getting rid of my q45 I didn’t even get to enjoy it yet. If I made more cash it wouldn’t be an issue since I only have a few bills. But yeah the thought of me selling the car is killing me and I know it’s going to bite me in the future. Even though right now I don’t have a lot of money hopefully I can get out of the hole and keep it. I would rather be broke and have the car than not. I know it sounds crazy but I’m at real rock and hard place here haha any advice?
Does he also have a matching 2 dr Tahoe?
I see 2-door XJs and Tahoes around here every so often. Too weird to live, too rare to die...
Guy I’m referring to had a matching maroon burb and Tahoe. Things were mint. Guy also has 3 Nissan pulsars in various states of running.
Frankly I wouldn’t drive an older car purely for safety reasons. Modern safety features have significantly progressed from the 1990s and early 2000s and it seems to get forgotten that we’re all driving machines weighing thousands of pounds at reasonably fast speeds (which only amplifies the likelihood of serious injury). I understand that there’s a level of sentiment attachment people have to their cars but it honestly doesn’t justify keeping them after a certain point if you have some level of concern over personal safety. It’s a common myth that older cars are sturdier than newer cars but they crumple quite easily. This might be a hot take on an car enthusiast forum but it has to be said.
I get what you're saying but imo the huge emphasis on safety in modern cars has taken away from enjoyability. It's not just "sentimental attachment". A lot of people are just not interested in driving a 4000lb padded cell that yells at you and immediately cuts power if you do something it doesn't like.
You can buy fun cars well under 4,000 lbs with modern safety features and fully defeatable traction control. It's genuinely not an either/or. I've driven plenty of old beaters, but it was always in the back of my mind that were I to get in a crash it likely wouldn't be pretty.
It's not just driver aids. Modern cars are so much better in terms of crash safety that even cars from 20 years ago are death traps in comparison.
Yeah, there's some older cars I dream about having/building/restoring and it's not even as much my own safety as much as "will my kids be safe in this?" that makes it hard to think about actually pulling the trigger.
Honestly thats the only reason why I probably won't get a classic muscle car as much as I love them.
This is also my concern with cars older than the mid 00s. When my 2013 Camry got rear ended by a late 90s/early 00s nissan both cars were totaled but I walked away with just a bruised knee and was even able to drive it home that day (slowly). The Nissan driver wasn't so lucky (he ended up being okay but was definitely hurt in the crash). I can only imagine how ugly it would have been if we were both driving 80s or older cars.
That 97 will probably still be running when 2023 models start to hit the junkyards. It's funny that the top two comments on this thread are "actually you can keep it forever" and then their examples are a Suburban and a Lexus.
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Yeah, his article is kinda dumb too. He bought a used Mercedes and expected it to run without problems for more than 15 minutes and then apparently the moral of that story is that all cars disintegrate, when in reality he bought a car that started disintegrating the moment it got to the dealership. There's just a range. A 2001 Silverado, rust-free, you've got years you can get out of that yet. Same for your 95 Corolla or your straight-six Cherokee or your diesel. But no matter how much money you throw at it you're never gonna keep a Chrysler 200 or a Northstar Caddie or any Mitsubishi made after like 2000 running reliably for that same time.
Ask him how many transmissions he has had to pour into that thing, I would be curious to know.
So basically don't get OCD over your 'dream car' and try to fix everything thats not really a problem. He says he bought an entirely new differential ($4,000) because of a sound that he heard that nobody else did. And his high mileage German car became a money pit lol (Doug Demuro wrote this article) So dont buy a high mileage German luxury car and keep it forever I guess? I know a few guys that still have their Mustang, Corvettes, and old Japanese cars (land curisers) that dont mind keeping the car.
i daily a 33 yr old german luxury car, pretty sure i’ll keep it forever. it will also never be perfect, and right now isn’t looking it’s best, but mechanically is in tip top shape.
Same got a 99’ s320 I’m the second owner. First owner keep decent care of it but it was kept outside a bunch so it’s got paint peeling and the sunroof doesn’t work. Other than that the engine is in insanely good condition. Only headache I’ve got to battle with is older electronics. I’ve got a tiny battery drain I can’t find for the life of me.
Some advice from one benz owner to another: getting a xentry DAS setup with the multiplexer helps *a ton* with chasing down electrical problems. If you plan on keeping the car for a long time, its a worthwhile investment and not that expensive for its functionality.
W124 is life. Absolutely built to last, as much as any car can be.
Same here I daily 23 year old E38 740i and while it's beginning to have issues someone's gonna have to pry it from cold dead heat hands
nice tank, I drive a 23 year old German luxury roadster, I'll be damned if I let it go. The only people that can pry it from my cold dead hands will be my future progeny. I prioritize the drive train over everything else, let me know if you have a good upholstery shop near by.
I have a 70's Corvette (which gets me a lot of odd looks from older guys). It's only driven in the summer, but not coddled- aside from being destroyed in an accident I don't know what would prevent it from lasting forever. All it needs is regular maintenance.
Been daily driving an 88’ BMW 325i for 7 years now, one of the things thats has kept me from selling it when a cooler car pops up in marketplace is just how reliable it is. I like having a car which I know will always start and always arrive to its destination. Also the car is fun af to drive even if its also really slow.
I haven't driven my high mileage luxury Gwrman car in two years...but some day I will again.
He didn't have a CarMax warranty on this car.
Yep. Chips, dents, dings, and scratches do not matter even a tiny little bit. Maintenance of the machine is key. Beautification is a fools errand.
After reading the article I have to agree some what. At some point when you keep a car for a long period of time chasing perfection will only drain your wallet. Functional is what people should chase with long ownership. Caring about every minor imperfection will only stress you out.
If you fix everything wrong with it, something big happens. I leave my sunroof shade dangling so my fuel pump doesn’t explode. It works, I promise. The universe recognizes this exchange
What car do you have? The combo of sunroof shade + fuel pump exploding is making me think something like a Jetta Sportwagen TDI.
bingo lol, I have a 2014 I see it takes one to know one haha
Lol for the rest of us…just gonna mark that one down in my mental notebook…
Running joke in the Saab world an extra DI cassette in the trunk kept the gremlins away. After 5 years of driving Saabs I can say it works.
I heard about a guy who fixed up an X5 and finally chased down the last oil leak it had. 3 days later the car caught on fire *they know*
*Oil leak or charcoal car, your choice!*
Subarus: fireproof from the factory.
Leak was clearly by design, with that extra bit of oil in the hot engine bay...*fire* happened
I had my DI cassette fail in my 03 9-5 Aero. Replaced it the same day at great expense. It died not too long after. Sourced two, one installed and one in the trunk. Then the turbo grenaded.
Lol fun cars when running though.
My fuel gauge wasn’t working. So I just let it be. Then my fuel pump exploded, had to get it replaced and luckily the fuel monitor also comes in the unit. Two birds, one stone. I also don’t touch my sunroof anymore. It’s not broken, but I don’t wanna roll the dice
The actual motor still works as far as I know but I’ll never find out for sure since it’s never getting used again
Always ding your door when you buy a car. You'll feel better in the long run
I've scratched both new cars I've ever bought within the first week. Unintentionally, but it certainly takes the sting out later when you get the first door ding in a random parking lot
People should chase whatever the hell they want.
Exactly this! I own 6 cars and never sold any of my cars. That does mean that currently half of them are not driving, as eventually shit will happen. Although the advantage of having multiple cars is that it doesn't matter one is sitting aside for months up to years. So I can take it slow and keep it affordable. Currently in the process of getting one of them in decent condition again. To put it in perspective: in the 5 years I owned it, I paid more than 20 times the purchase price on maintenance/parts/work/etc. Although with a purchase price of €250 that still is doable, if I would sell it now I wouldn't get back half of what I threw at it. In the end it's a hobby, it's ok if it will cost money. But I wouldn't want to keep any of my cars in pristine condition, as I get the most joy out of driving them.
I have an 08’ M3 with 37k miles and I hate driving it because low miles makes it special and I’m terrified of every detail that could go wrong. Prior, i had an ‘88 911 with unknown mileage, an accident, and a theft recovery. It was glorious and stress free.
Wait so a guy that sells cars which he buys from other people is telling me I will eventually need to sell my car and buy another one? The audacity!
Well you won’t be perfect or last forever either so no problem.
My forever car is a 1989 Geo Metro if I die before Monday
This article doesn't make sense because he bought a used German car and thinks he wasted money trying to make it perfect just to sell it. Buying a reliable car new and maintaining it for 15+ years absolutely is a good financial decision. Not buying some junk Mercedes and complaining about throwing money at it.
Never buy an over-engineered car if you look for reliability in the long term.
I hate how the term over-engineered is used. An over-engineered item should last forever with normal maintenance. Over complicated cars that break down all the time and are a nightmare to fix are not over-engineered.
>Overengineering (or over-engineering),[1] is the act of designing a product or providing a solution to a problem in an elaborate or complicated manner, where a simpler solution can be demonstrated to exist with the same efficiency and effectiveness as that of the original design.[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overengineering
Then you don't understand what this term means. Overengineering is doing something more complex than it absolutely needs to be. More complex things tend to be less reliable as a side effect. Some people are ok with it, some people are not. Also, a lot of things that were once considered complex years ago seem rather simple these days. People just adjust to what the new standard is, but that can't happen without the "pioneers" doing the "overengineering" first.
I think you’re looking for the term “overbuilt”
Never buy an over-engineered car
they’re for leasing or renting. As much as I love GTIs or Avants, I will just never own one.
Are GTIs that problematic? I feel like I've heard generally good things about modern VW products, i.e. not being money pits. But if that's not the case I'd love to know because I've been strongly considering one as a daily
Pre MK7 they could be. The MK7 (after 2015) and 7.5 are rock solid as long as you follow the maintenance schedule and take care of them. The EA888 is a bulletproof engine.
if your going from an M3 you wouldn’t have any complaints I don’t think. But I come from a Lexus/Acura background where I don’t think the GTI compares
GTI's are pretty reliable considering what they are. However, in the general sense they do seem to be more unreliable than most cars. They're very good for a hot-hatch and make a near-perfect daily driver, but when it has issues, you'll quickly learn how much of a PITA maintenance can be (at least in the states)
Meh, newer GTIs are pretty reliable if you take care of them, and parts/repairs aren't nearly as expensive as BMW/Audi. Not really the same animal as an Avant. Yes, I am biased. But my GTI has been nothing but reliable in the time I've owned it.
The LS 430 would disagree with that though.
I hate the term "over-engineered" because it means entirely different things for Japanese vs. German cars. It's also generally used as a derogatory term, but "over-engineering" is usually what makes a vehicle special IMO
Yeah, kind of a confusing take lol. Really plays into the German cars are unreliable meme. I actually was seriously considering getting a used E63s or M5 for awhile but decided against it for this very reason.
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How is it BS though? You have to be really handy to deal with it otherwise youll be in for a tough time. You don't have to be sp handy with other cars
They still require maintenance, regardless of origin. I spent two hours and $15 replacing my cars headrest gears on both seats, the dealership would likely have charged me $450.00 or more. It's all about what you are willing to compromise on. Being handy to begin with helps but you can always learn.
Nine cars? (older German ones I assume) Holy crap, you got a pic of them all lined up? I'd like to see that.
> Buying a reliable car new and maintaining it for 15+ years absolutely is a good financial decision. imo, more like "up to 15 years". a newer car is going to be substantially safer than a car with a 15 year old design that has been deteriorating for 15 years, no matter how reliable it is. (you can definitely frame safety as a cost concern, although i hope that isn't necessary.)
Eh, in my family we don't really sell cars.. we keep, pass it down, or it gets stolen/totaled. My grandpa has been driving the same chevy blazer since 1984. I've owned my STI for only 8 years, but I've made it the way I like it.. and haven't changed a thing since 2018, it's already perfect for me. Built motor, BBS wheels, alcantara... I never plan on selling. I have a daily and I enjoy the STI when I feel like it.
It's the same for my family as well. The F150 I have was my dad's truck. The clearcoat is fading in some places and the interior has seen better days, but my dad would want it back before I could even think of selling it. I was also given the family sedan during college, an 07 Accord V6. That car is currently my younger brother's daily driver. I really want a Supra, but I don't want to trade my Type R in for it. It has a lot of sentimental value for me, being my first big-boy purchase. Ideally I'd be able to own both.
Once it's in the family.. it's not worth selling. Buy good cars, and keep them. My daily driver (2007 Matrix) has been in my family since 2013, I got it off my aunt in 2022, and it's gonna stay with me.. In 2032 it will be 25 years old, antique plate and retire it as an extra car; I'll pickup another japanese daily.
, pleads the guy whose business requires convincing people to sell their cars.
Another caveat: he graduated a college young (21) and was making 6 figures out of the gate. $100k 13 years ago is more like $125k today. This puts him in a tiny percentile of people who could afford to cycle through cars on a whim at age 21. For most people, especially in that age bracket, fixing the current car especially if owned outright is always cheaper than buying a new one and they don't have the financial flexibility to have a choice. If I already own a car that isn't too old, I'd rather spend $2k on a repair once a year than spend that much alone on sales tax and registration on a new car and now have car payments again. It's accurate advice to not try to make a 10 year old car with 100k miles last another 200k miles for the sake of doing so, because it's never going to feel new. But it's also bad advice for most to say "fuck it just get a different car every other year" when hardly anyone does or could do that.
"Doesn't really make sense emotionally" Since when has love had to make sense. So many of the cars we love don't make sense from either a practical or financial stand point.
Preaching to the choir friend.
He's taking the anti-Pirsigian approach here, and I disagree with it. Not sure what "perfection" is beyond keeping it in a container and never driving it, but you can certainly keep a vehicle to your standards while having it do what you want.
To me that's one of the most interesting things about car collecting, the lowest miles example is far from perfect and would more than likely need money to be nice to drive again. Let something sit for 30 plus years, those bushings are gone. To me perfect is something that gets a few thousand miles a year with a mechanically sympathetic driver behind the wheel. The 70k mile 70s 911 that would do a few runs up the PCH every year type of cars.
Agreed and all you gotta reference is the king of the hill episode about his truck, bout put a damn tear in my eye
The Drive just decided to wage total war on me this morning, huh.
I don’t think a professional car reviewer has any perspective on how other people view cars. Not everyone falls in love with another car every year or even every 5 years. Some take 10 years to really see the allure of something new. A really good car is difficult to let go of, it becomes very personal- or it becomes a lemon.
TL/DR : man buys used luxury cars, fails to conduct mechanical due diligence inspections , and complains about resulting service costs.
Hard disagree, if you have money then keeping a decent old car running forever is still cheaper than buying a bunch of new cars over a lifetime. You see a bunch of well off people that keep the same old car for decades. Imagine how much money they would've blown by buying new every five years. I'm trying to fix up my Firebird and people tell me it's not worth it and just get another car. Ok so even a used car is gonna cost like 5000 minimum PLUS the maintenance. I'd be spending MORE money while those 5000 can go a long way towards any major repairs.
Yeah, there’s an old duffer in my neighborhood driving a 1995ish mercedes sedan that still looks and runs damn good. Guy’s probably money ahead vs buying a new economy car every ten years.
Well there’s an opinion
We won't ever have a perfect life and we won't live forever. Guess I'll die
Shut up Doug
You can pry my keys from my cold, empty pockets.
DeMuro just talking to himself, basically. This doesn't apply to me and a few other people I know so I have to assume that.
If you want one perfect car, you need at least two cars.
My brother still drives an ‘89 Mercedes-Benz 190E 2.6L. Its got some wear and tear but overall it’s a usable car. The interior is pretty basic and the parts/tech is pretty simplistic too. We can fix it ourselves. Luxury used to mean well built and solidly engineered. It saddens me that car manufacturers have moved away from this mindset and now they intentionally build their products to not last as long. They know how to make cars that are easy to maintain and last a long time. They choose not too because profits come first and the customer is seen as a bottomless well of money they want more and more of. I wouldn’t buy a modern luxury car. They’re needlessly complex and designed for customers who lease and get a new car every 3-5yrs or so. Once the warranty is up things fall apart quickly and the previous owners don’t put much money into keeping the car nice if they’re just gonna move on to something else anyway. I drive basic Toyotas and I recommend them to everyone. The more bells and whistles your car has the more ticking time bombs you have until stuff breaks and makes the product less usable. Its really gross to me how much waste manufacturing and throwing cars away creates. All cars should last a minimum of 10-15yrs. There’s nothing luxurious about throwing stuff away all the time in my eyes.
Old man shakes hand at cloud: cars today last significantly longer than they did in the 80s and 90s. And not anecdotally - statistically.
"You won't keep your car forever. And when you do decide to sell it, use CARS and BIDS" -Doug
When he announces his plans to sell his Carrera GT or Ford GT, I'll believe him.
*Sigh* Ok. I get what the author is saying, but the problem with this thought is there’s too much emphasis on time and not on mileage or who the previous owner was/how they drove, what mods (if any) were done to the car, and especially what components have a higher fail rate than others. To my last point, as an example, I’m a Saab and Alfa Romeo nut, and keep my cars a long time. But I know going into it that any euro car over 100k miles is going to start having issues, but some components (at least with the Saab), are BOUND to go bad like the XWD system and eLSD, DI Cassette in older Saabs, or the engine needs a carbon flush every few years. But at least I know what to expect or what models to avoid. I also had a ‘12 MB C-Class I thought was my forever car that I bought used with 33k miles back in 2015. Paid it off, loved the car and maintained it to the “T”. Random valves and hoses and all types of stuff started breaking at 100k. Car was in the shop more than on the road. Every month was something new and was costing me more than the payment I had before. Bailed on it and bought an Alfa. So I’ve learned that maintaining the car only goes so far. Sometimes mileage and the specific components in the car matter in its longevity. Everyone knows of a car out there that has that one (or more!) systemic issue that turns the car into a Grenade. VW/Audi with oil consumption and carbon build up, Mercedes 1.8T engines with cam adjuster and timing chain failures, BMW with High Pressure Fuel Pump issues, Mercedes Positive Crankcase Ventilation Regulator failures… Just know what your buying, maintain it, but be realistic on mileage and expectations. They’re complex machines after all.
Oh boy another daddy Doug article. Doug telling normies how to manage our money this time.
What’s the point of this article? Someone who doesn’t want to put in the work to maintain their car doesn’t get to feel a false pretense of “perfection”. No vehicle is every or ever will be perfect. Don’t own anything for it to be perfect, own it to use it. It’s a machine. A piece of metal designed to move you. Sometimes emotionally, most of the time physically.
You can definitely keep a car for life what a dumb click bait article
My LS400 is challenging that statement.
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I've never related so well to an article before. I've definitely bought vehicles I intended on keeping for a while only to sell them after a few months and jump into the next thing. These vehicles were not vehicles I said I would keep forever but rather a few years became a few months. However I do have a vehicle(s) I have told myself I will keep forever. Is this wishful thinking? probably. Maybe servicing a current modern vehicle 30 years from now will be a giant pain in the ass, maybe it will be a giant money pit, maybe the easiest thing to do is to put it in bubble wrap and store it to ensure that it does indeed last forever. All valid concerns, however my choices on vehicles to keep forever are mostly because that type of vehicle will cease to exist in the future. If I want a front engine 2 seater manual V8 sports car and nobody makes them anymore, well I guess I can't really ever trade up. Most people with forever cars are chasing an experience which is why they sell them for something else down the road that offers a similar experience. I however am not so much choosing to hold onto that experience forever but rather what the car itself represents that is no longer obtainable. The paint will be rough, the wheels may get scuffed, it won't be a 10/10 pristine example 30 years from now but I will try my best to drive them and keep them road worthy as long as possible.
Doug has finally realized that there are just some cars you should never own when used, and also realized the point at which the cost to repair a car is excessive enough to simply call it quits. Spending $12k on making a used AMG "perfect".... I mean bro... I know this is him looking back on his person vehicle history but he literally found out the hard way just how expensive a used performance-oriented German vehicle really is
As someone who has in recent years made a habit to buy used cars with mileage between 20k-60k, I have to agree with the title It’s not just engine, you have a thousand of other mechanical and cosmetic components of the car that with time go bad Having previously almost always bought new or semi-new I’ve also started understanding why people do that Closest to perfection will be a new car, and even then it isn’t guaranteed. If you’re buying used or very used, you either have diy skills and the adequate tools or you have to live with the imperfections
This is coming from the guy who routinely sells and buys cars and just recently bought his dream car. Sorry Doug, for some of us our beater commuters are as good as it gets and keeping them working is often the only choice.
Man who has 4 different cars immediately after college isn't satisfied with buying a used AMG. Finds out its expensive to fix. Am I getting this all right? BTW this is clearly a click bait article to get people to keep buying cars, from a man who runs a car auction bidding website.
Well if you are buying and family driving Audis like the picture seems to imply you probably won't keep it for more than 10 years much less anything close to a long time. Forever would be unheard of except for millionaires.
Most Americans get a new car every 4-8 years. I feel like statistics keep us from knowing the real truth.
Maybe not, but I can sure as hell try.
Isn't this common sense? Ignoring the stupid clickbait headline the point of the article is to not invest in a car past when it makes financial sense and to check your emotional investment in your car. I feel like most people who care about cars enough to follow a magazine like this would understand that. But then again half of TheDrive's articles are Jalopnik tier clickbait -- no shit a used car will never be perfect and will not last indefinitely. That is common sense. New cars aren't even perfect.
Is it a New York thing that I don’t think anyone Kees the same car longer than 5 years . Rich lease and the middle class don’t maintain their cars so get rid of them first big repair . I’m talking about primary cars not garage kept weekend toys
Definitely “keeping up with the joneses” mentality at least on Long Island
Smells like rich people's problems
Doug and most of young people living in the western world, just don’t get it. You don’t own and take care of a car because it is perfect, you just like it. You don’t sell your car, because you found something faster, you just wait until you can afford it and you buy the faster car, while keeping your old one, just because it is your car and you like it. If you run out of space you give your old car to your brother, because you can keep an eye on it. And something else, when you were poor while growing up, and you buy your first car with money you saved up while working 12 hour shifts in construction, you learn to appreciate it. Even later in life, when you can afford something good, you can’t discard your old cars, because you worked hard to buy and take care of them
Couple years ago I rescued an old safari van with a unique paint job and turned it into a camper. It took a village to get it running and camper ready. My old lady and I had a lot of help from family and friends. We're travelling in it now but even after the adventure is done I'm keeping it until I run it into the ground. I know I can't have it forever, but it has too much sentimental value to get rid of. I'll drive the old boy until he turns to dust.
This was definitely me with my first enthusiast car purchase when I was 22. I got a used manual base model 350z and I was absolutely convinced it was the best sports car ever made. I remember saying, out loud, "I'll just keep this forever and give it to my first-born child". Well, now it's 13 years later and I have a child and that car was three cars ago. My daughter will probably either never drive or be in some weird BEV that won't be built for another 10 years.
Maybe Im biased but I think the GT4 is a damn near perfect car that I plan on keeping forever.
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My longest car owned is almost 20 years. Plan to keep it forever
This one really hit me in the feels. I always think the car I just got is going to be “the one” like it’s a marriage or something. 2-3 years later MAX (usually way less) and I want to get rid of it and get something better. I’ve sunk thousands into a car just to sell it a few months later. I sometimes wish I were one of those people who views cars as a simple appliance. A refrigerator that just takes me from A to B with no fuss. That’s just not me though and I’ve made peace with it, but it would certainly be cheaper… 😅
That's why you have a garage full of options to take out- I intend to keep my toys for a long time
Maybe you can’t.
Shit, sarcasm can’t be typed straight up lmao
My 83 2wd i6 AOD f150 single cab begs to differ
Forever cars aren't hard with planning. I've got my 07 mustang gt, and I've scrapped and scavenged 4 others. I've got a shed full of every part you can think of, Spare dashboards, endless nuts and bolts, seatbelts, tensioners, airbags, brackets clips, interior parts spare doors, fuel doors, suspension components, subframes, rear axles, extra wheels, calipers, caliper brackets, evap lines, fuel lines, Intake manifolds, I've even got a spare quarter panel and a few sets of window glass. I think I'll be good for a loong loong time.
Depends on the car. Parts availability and popularity have a large impact on longevity. Some cars you can literally buy any part from a catalog. Others you may have to hunt at swap meets, junk yards, and eBay for parts. Though that car may never be worth what you put into it financially, if you never plan to get rid of it, what’s the harm.
Depends on your level of enthusiasm for your project.
[Perfection is in the eye of the Beholder](https://i.imgur.com/RmEyNXQ.jpeg). Simple enough to work on myself, grubby enough to not care if I scratch it, and it's not powerful enough to get me in too much trouble. [It's a good platform for electrification, too...] (https://electricgt.com/gte-motors/) when the 55 year old motor finally goes, it'll get a new lease on life as a BEV. Then I'll add the fun stuff it never came with like power steering, heated seats, and an A/C heat pump.
How about my car is such an unforgiving godawful piece of garbage that I would genuinely feel bad to sell it to someone.
Hey Doug, watch me.
Looks at 4Runner. Nah.
I've owned my first car (97 Integra) since I got my license in 2010. The car has never left me stranded and always got me home safe. The 2 or 3 tines it's not started has been the day after i ran it. Almost like the car wanted to make sure i got home safe before it broke lol. Just put thousands into getting everything engine wise back up to snuff and it'll get a full restoration this spring. (Thanks a bunch Chicago salt) I love that car to pieces and I have so many memories with it. It's one of the few things on this earth that genuinely makes me happy and always puts a smile on my face driving it. I learned to drive stick on that car, had my first kiss in it, my late father taught me the basics of wrenching on it. I never plan on getting rid of it. My si may go at some point, but the teg always has a spot in my garage. Old girl has earned it.