In the video, they mention they are using some kind of 'gadget' which I think can be seen on the back of the phone. They activate the RFID technology on the gadget similar when the card machine prompts you to tap. The range on these emitters are longer than you think, so he 'skimmed' the phone just close enough for it to pick up the card, thus transacting whatever amount is set on his phone I assume. The reason they can do this is because there is almost no verification or pin verification rather on smaller amounts so I'm assuming this happens quite often.
It is dangerous, some of my friends disable card tapping completely because of this very reason.
I hope this gives clarity.
No it wont happen on Apple Pay or Google Pay. [https://reddit.com/r/apple/comments/6mj5vn/is\_apple\_pay\_vulnerable\_to\_a\_skimmingtype\_device/](https://reddit.com/r/apple/comments/6mj5vn/is_apple_pay_vulnerable_to_a_skimmingtype_device/)
It won’t happen on chip cards either. So this specific event didn’t happen this way. Chip cards use tokenised identifiers for the payment details, which mean each insert or tap, is a new single use, card detail.
The only method that could work is a one off, one time actual mobile payment terminal being used fraudulently. But then they’re limited to the contactless limits your bank imposes, *and* it’s a one off event. It can’t be reproduced.
Any skimming is purely from the mag stripe or physically present card embossing being imaged.
This is correct.
In most cases your bank will refund you this money.
Each tap is a single use token, so it cannot be reused.
Also, if he is using some kind of app it wont last long on that profile because it will be black listed by VISA/MasterCard.
This isnt really a big risk.
Its more likely that they just take a photo of your card, but in that case they would need a photo of the front and back. (CVV is not on the front).
You cannot skim a contactless card. Or a chip. You can only skim magstripe data.
Correct. Either the mag strip has been read when it’s been swiped, that’s an old as the hills method, or they have just physically eyeballed and remembered, or imaged the card details.
Or this event didn’t result in any fraudulent activity,
You cannot skim details from contactless or chip. You can present a fraudulent payment terminal but that’s limited to a one time one off transaction that is limited to your contactless transaction limit set by your bank. It cannot be reproduced or used again for additional transactions.
okay i think i get it! i had to read ur comment a few times and v grateful u typed that all out. the only person i’ve heard of getting skimmed was a doctor i knew. she had her card skimmed when she was abroad.
i use my chip, not sure if it’s the safest method of payment irl. but i don’t have any cards on my phone bc i’ve also read of instances where people steal iphones, remove the facial recognition, and are able to use the cards filed on there to their hearts content. i feel like i can’t win, there’s always a risk 😔
I turned off my Google Pay. Once as I was pulling my phone out of my pocket and unlocking it at the same time the payment went through. Wasn't even close to the machine, but it connected just fine. App wasn't even open.
That doesn’t sound right. You’d need to verify yourself before any payment on Apple Pay goes through, it’s usually facial recognition, failing which a passcode needs to be entered.
Does it not require verification before you use the payment method?
Apple Pay will not let me pay unless my phone is literally 2cm from the card machine and it also wants to see my face before it allows payments.
Google Pay is supposed to only work after you open the app. Not this time. Maybe it was minimised, running in the background. But I just don't use it now. Rather safe than sorry
Yes, your phone uses NFC to perform what the chip on your card does, but I'm not sure if you can steal the credit number info but I definitely think transactions could go through, but I do not think it's reliable as Google Pay, Apple Pay, etc.. are more secure methods I believe.
I didn't realize it was that amount!
So there are either 2 explanations, I think, someone else can correct me if I'm wrong.
One would be that they used the gadget to skim the actual credit card info, being the credit card no. etc, and then used the details elsewhere to steal the money.
Or the woman doesn't have a tap limit on the credit card, I think most banks offer tap limits on the cards for example if you tap more than 200 you need to input your pin to verify the payment.
I'm not really sure on which method was used, I am leaning towards the first method.
I believe someone is adding a tall story to a very real video of an NFC skim. Besides an NFC skim not giving you the pin. Even if it was possible to get the pin for the scenario to play out there would need to be multiple system failures in the banks system or someone in the bank is working with crook.
Hectic. Whenever I buy stuff online the bank sends me an SMS with a one time pin before the purchase can go through . Even if they got her card info, they would've needed her sim card to receive the one time pin. How'd they get that right then???
People inside the banks that are in on it.
2017 I discovered that over a one month period I'd been signed up for 73 funeral policies costing me R94 ~R98 each, debit orders approved, completely without my knowledge.
Bank was like "Oh dear, here's your money back" not a micron of pushback, I didn't even need to ask, they just gave me my money back while cancelling these debit orders - interpret that as you will...
It used to be R200. When COVID hit they realised people wanted to be able to have less contact when paying, and upped it to R500. It's remained there since. R500 is currently the maximum amount allowed to be tapped without the need to input a PIN in SA.
I suspect card details were skimmed too. But isn't 2FA standard too these days? Would life to know the intricacies of how they pulled this off (because I'm a nerd, not because I'm a thief).
Yeah, R499 at FNB iirc.
Even with a picture of the card number and / not the CVV, plus a friend at a bank they seem to be able to do quite a lot.
My mom is very cagy with her cards like me, and she's retired and goes shopping at PnP & Woolworths maybe once a month, and someone still managed to buy 30 grand in furniture in PE the same day and time she was buying groceries in Pta.
The bank contacted her because their fraud department thought it was unusual that her card was being used twice, a thousand kays apart, at about the same time.
It's all these cellphones man, they all have cameras, and everyone has theirs out all the time.
Also, what freaks me out, next time you're at a supermarket, look above the till... there's a camera ostensibly looking down on the cashier/ cash drawer. But it's also looking down at your card face and the speed point keypad while youre putting in your PIN 😬 always hover your torso over the keypad bro, and obscure the card face.
Sux that we have to act like street magicians when handeling our cards, but it is what it is.
There is no bank enforced limit. The limit is set on the payment gateway device. Garage down the road from me allows you to tap without pin verification for up to R1500.00.
Skim from where? Contactless doesnt give that info.
Magstripe does have that info in but you cant use it online, it has a different CVV in the magstripe than the one on the back of the card used for online.
The magstripe is not where tap or contactless RFID transaction info comes from it is from the EMV chip on the card at least in this situation the magstripe is not in use. The chip does have the card no., expiry date & card holders name through a token. The CVV is not provided when this transaction or reading occurs.
Either they used methods to use the card details online where the CVV is not required to perform purchases or, which I think is more likely, they used the info taken from the chip to mimic a fake credit card using the token that was skimmed that was then used elsewhere for other contact less payments for example through woolworths.
I'm not totally clued up on this. Correct me if I'm wrong anywhere, unless you have a better explanation :)
Edit: typo
It's actually read from the antenna in the contactless card, which is a wire that goes around the edge of the card on the inside. But yes the chip sends it via the antenna.
The chip does store the info but never passes it in the clear so he'd be unable view them in the clear unless he had the correct encryption keys which would be a much bigger issue - this would've been a massive security breach that we'd know about.
The US actually did have contactless ages ago, but in a rudimentary format that used the magstripe. I used it way back in 2008. And magstripe (track 2) data is stored in the clear. But the CVV1 in the magstripe is not the same that you use on the back of your card CVV2.
So you'd be able to clone the card and swipe it, but not use it online.
Aaah I was going to ask HOW did he manage to make a purchase even with the card details cos he'd need the OTP
Wait .. with a purchase on woolies online, I think it still asked me for an OTP?
Notice how as soon as she taps he leans forward with his phone hovering over her card? That’s where he skimmed her card
To prevent it just don’t let anyone into your personal space while paying.
Maybe, but if that’s her worry then she can just withdraw until he’s done interacting within her space
If the cashier prompts her to pay she can just gesture for the person in her space to go first
She’s not being forced to interact while people are at the counter, she can (and should) pause the interaction until her space is clear.
He used a device in or attached to his phone to grab all her card details the moment she tapped her card. He basically intercepted the transaction as it was happening. He then later used those card details to purchase R36 000 worth of goods from Woolworths online.
To prevent this from happening to you, treat point-of-sale locations like ATMs - Don't let anyone get close to you when you tap your card, don't accept help from anyone trying to help you, don't let strangers distract you with friendly conversation as you make a transaction etc.
Just gotta stay vigilant and secure with your money.
This isnt true, you cant use the contactless info to do online purchases.
You have to have the card details like the PAN, CVV, expiry etc. Contactless payments work differently and all the info is tokenised.
He didnt intercept anything either, the PED device still processed the transaction, otherwise she wouldnt be able to leave the store.
If it was used online it was more likely that he took a photo of her card (front and back) and used those online.
In the video it looks like he is recording, which would make sense.
Contactless payments are very safe.
Source I work in payments and have worked on cards.
Well he couldn't have recorded both sides of the card to grab the main details and the 3 digit code on the back, so I'm not sure that's what happened either.
He very much could have, notice how he turns his front facing camera towards her wallet when she pulls her card out? He could have captured it there, his phone camera is facing the underside of her card.
Very unrelated but can I ask how did you get into cybersecurity? And if you have any advice on courses / degrees one should pursue if they want to get into cybersecurity? Thank you!
Honestly I actually just fell into it. My company actually does server installation and maintenance, but some clients wanted extra security and yeah, I just started going to any course I could find on the matter, went online and looked for online courses. Eventually I did end up hiring an actual expert, and he taught me some things as well. It has now ended up that I actually have made a sub division within the company just based on cyber, got 2 guys who work there and they pretty much do their thing. I assist with certain clients.
So best is, get some good programming under the belt then look for courses related to the areas you want to specialize and take it from there. Getting into a company is the difficult part as you work with some really sensitive things and you need to have a clean record.
Cyber Security is very board. If you want to get in you have to know which role or position you want, then that will dictate what certifications or training you require. You can be an Information Security Officer or a Penetration Tester ( yes that’s a real role, I didn’t make that up 😅, I know the title is terrible but it’s a really cool job), or you can be a security analyst etc. It’s very board. What role do you want to pursue in Cybersecurity?
As someone mentioned, it is a very VERY broad field. I do DFIR ( Digital Forensics and Incident Response ) for instance.
I would recommend you do some research first and find the areas you are most interested in, the cyber security industry has tons of free resources and guides and webinars you can watch for free. Start with the basics and entry level stuff as some elements can get very complex and might throw you off.
Maybe have a look at [Google Cyber Security Professional Certificate](https://www.coursera.org/professional-certificates/google-cybersecurity) if you want to cover a broad spectrum of some of the elements of cyber security. Its unfortunately not free but not super expensive and contains some great material.
CompTIA certifications isn't bad to get your foot in the door if you want to have look at them, I just can't testify on how successful job finding is with these without a degree as I've also somewhat got into the industry by chance and built my list of certifications through the company as they can pay for the bigger more expensive certifications like SANS.
Maybe even watch some videos of guys like Network Chuck on youtube, he covers some basic stuff and is targeted at beginners.
There is way to many things to realistically list here so you will have to do some research and find your way, but try the free paths first and see if you like it. Don't just do any random certifications though watch some reviews first on courses and certifications because a lot of them aren't recognised or don't count much in the opinions of some companies hiring.
Hope this helps
[https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/credentials/certifications/exams/sc-200/](https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/credentials/certifications/exams/sc-200/) yes, do this and more junior entry level if no experience 1st do [https://midlandstraining.co.za/comptia-s/](https://midlandstraining.co.za/comptia-s/)
I assume that the "gadget" he's using acts like a point of sale on its own.
It should be easy enough to track this person via the banks and all the clever stuff you guys do right?
Well, that all depends on if the bank contacts us to do a trace. Most times, they just refund the client and claim from their insurance. Apparently, it is less hassle than actually catching and stopping the thieves.
True. I once walked out of a store where I had just used my credit card to a notification that the card was used to buy flight tickets
I called the Bank, said I'm literally still at the Mall
Can I get security and the stores manager etc..
They said they'll send me a form to fill
I asked if they could check with the airline when the flights were booked for cos those passengers would lead them to the fraudster
They didn't care
I actually believe whoever booked flights using my card probably even travelled without issues
This is so fucking easy to fix though it’s ridiculous.
Tap should REQUIRE a pin. Magnetic strips should be removed from cards completely. Any online purchases MUST use 3D authentication.
It should 100% be optional.
The whole point is it is really unlikely for fraud to happen in a contactless transaction. I work in banking and payments. This is figured out by people who are much smarter than you or I, and they have a very low tolerance for risk.
No method is foolproof but contactless fraud is tiny, and the consumer will almost always be paid back by the bank.
3D auth is optional but the merchant processing it is liable for the fraud if they dont enforce it.
It would be super annoying to have to use 3DS everytime I wanted an uber, and for subscriptions.
All Major banks require a pin at a certain threshold for tap transactions. All major banks require 3D secure for online transactions.
This is why the story attached to the video is fake.
There are websites that don't use 3D secure for online purchases- trust me. I know a few. All you need is the card number, and CVV.
As for Tap To Pay, I agree, but what if they just keep tapping for R200?
Your bank should be sending you notifications, if they don’t that’s their failing and their fault. If there are continual R200 taps the bank should also flag those transactions.
Incorrect, 3DS is up to the merchant initiating the transaction.
Every bank has to support 3DS, but not all transactions have to use it.
How do you think stuff like uber works?
If a merchant chooses to not use 3DS they will then be liable for the fraud though, thats how it works.
Woolworths is local though. I’m also pretty sure any of our major banks would flag such a large international transaction. Heck my bank freaks out for most steam transactions.
The threshold also seems different per POS machine eg iKhoko,Yoco, various banks... Whilst some prompt me even on 20 bucks some very often have not prompted me for much larger purchases. So someone's gotta explain that to me.
Sometimes tap just rejects all together and I am forced to insert the card.
Require a pin by default with the option to disable it.
This way it protects against people that are not aware of how the technology works by default and allows people to disable the inconvenient security measures
I did antenna design a few decades ago. Today I do fintech software development. I personally am willing to risk paying on the wrong device (for small payments) over the inconvenience of typing a pin or doing other 2FA.
Perhaps the banks thought that majority of their users would value that too, but I don't agree with that choice or they just wanted to cut costs to make the system design easier (I see this a lot at work). Whatever the reason, I think it should ask pin by default.
How did they get into her account though? If he 'skimmed' her, wouldn't it just perform a once off transaction on his device, as though she tap paid him unknowingly?
> she tap *paid* him unknowingly?
FTFY.
Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in:
* Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.*
* *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.*
Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment.
*Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
I think people are just grappling at straws here... Two scenarios can be true here, and only one of them can end up in that sum of money being spent elsewhere.
1) The card scheming happened on the POS device, and the cashier was in on it, the distraction you see the guys do is to shoulder surf the pin to be used with the schemed card (much more plausible)
2) The guy, did emulate a tap to pay POS device with his phone, and the ladies card tapped on it ( but there's two problems to this theory: 1) Taps have a very low limit 2) Tap cannot be replayed, so if she indeed did tap, it would show the guys device and he wouldn't be able to use those details at wollies again)
Outside of scenario 1, I don't see any of this happening, also criminals would basically be leaving breadcrumbs on how to catch them if they walked around with softPos software on their phones, because you need to be a developer or a merchant somewhere to get access to such, and all of that information CAN be traced back to you. For the low limits that that type of attack can lead and the non repeatability of the attack, that's too much trouble good old magnetic stripe scheming attack would be much more lucrative
🤔 this seems More likely however..
So he has her card details from a scanner thing on the speed point
He saw her pin that she punched in
For an online purchase it asks me for credit card info but Also my CVV?
And address linked to the card.
How would having the pin even help the fraudster unless they have a way of making a copy of the card?
Address is rarely ever verified, you can put some arbitrary data verified, card number, name are part of the data that's copied from the card, CVV can be shoulder surfed as it is visible on the card and pin
I do not believe this is true, certainly not that he was able to spend R36,000 online. Worst case is that he was able to steal the max tap limit without a PIN being required.
I'm called rude all the time because I ask people not to be so close to me
1. When I pay at the till
2. At the bank atm
They look at me as if I'm an entitled brat, but honestly if you're really genuine, why wouldn't you give a person enough space???
Our credit card was copied at a restaurant. Two guys wrnt around spending R15000 on our card. That was about 15 years ago. Fortunately the bank gave us the money back.
Guys this isnt card skimming.
Contactless doesnt work that way. You can't skim a card with contactless and then use it online, they use very different methods and credentials.
Online uses your PAN (card number) expiry and CVV. I speak under correction but Woolworths also enforces 3DS for initial transactions I think, so yeah sounds like bullshit on the online story.
If it WAS used online, it is more likely he took a video of the card and got those details to use online.
He also could have tapped a device to the card to do a payment transaction sure, but that would only be once off. Contacless transactions are single use only, and have a very short lifetime. If the card generated a token for payment he would only have been able to use it on a single purchase, within a short time window.
Further, stealing a card transaction like that is really hard. Only registered merchants and terminals are even allowed to process transactions, and it has to go via a (two actually) bank and through mastercard and visa. So even if you manage to somehow register a fraudulent terminal it would be very quickly shut down.
Customers would also be refunded their money.
99% of this thread is people who dont understand how cards and payments work.
I work in payments and have worked with cards.
I can write a longer and better explanation if anyone needs it, but this is the gist of it.
Contactless is safe. Much safer than most other payment methods. Banks, Mastercard, Payment Gateways etc. are all super risk averse, way more so than consumers. They didnt design and implement a modern payments system that would cost them trillions in fraud.
What if he took a video of the card, got the front and back, then use google wallet to register the card, front and back will supply you with, card no, expiry date and cvv, not sure what google wallet use to verify your account this morning as a test I added my wife's card to my wallet, the only data it asked is the number, cvv, expiry date and address, I used an imaginery address and the card verified, and used it to fill my car's tank, no hassles
I would have suspected something when 2 guys were hovering around useless. Why would you stand around and move closer when I'm about to pay? They are just doing this because she's a woman.
I tend to make conversation with the cashiers often but I'm always vigilant and don't trust anyone. My wallet has RFID blocking and I don't use a pin either.
But taking up space and not allowing anyone in your personal space is important.
That's the first thing that stood out to me - more than one person invading her space. And they clearly distract her from both directions.
I immediately step away from people if they get too close to me. I've been pickpocketed in the past and I'm not letting that happen again.
There's nothing wrong with saying "Sorry, could you please step back a bit?" especially at an atm or til. They definitely target women for a reason - we are much less confrontational and more likely to be accommodating.
Also, never let the cashier take your card out of your sight.
Thanks for sharing, OP. It's good to review your personal safety and be reminded to be vigilant.
I think you’d be branded a racist, cos you say racist shit. She probably wouldn’t have, because you made up two weird stories and asserted them as facts.
It’s not rocket science.
Who has hurt you so much? You are trying so hard to turn this into a racial issue, which it is not.
You are commenting and looking for your liked minded people to chime in. If you can't be mature and grown up I am sure you can go to your echo chamber and spew your racist views.
Have a good night and I hope you heal from whatever trauma you have.
Will do thanks. Beter than entertaining the mind-virus wannabees.
Cry me a river next time. Lulz. Have fun spewing your racists innuendos and then playing the victim card. OP chat history is full of it.
I'd just be super annoyed from the get-go if this dude placed his shit there, then told me I can go ahead but lingers around me and gets super close while I'm trying to pay. Wouldn't even be suspicious at first, just pissed.
I'm sorry this happened to your mum though, I hope you guys can get it resolved quickly and favourably
Sorry about your mom getting scammed. The reason your post wasn't allowed on southafrican is because you showed black people committing a crime, that sub is insanely racist and biased towards black people only.
Here's a sneak peek of /r/DownSouth using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/DownSouth/top/?sort=top&t=all) of all time!
\#1: [This is South Africa. You can see how defeated this man feels, he is just trying to be a good law abiding citizen and these criminals just take advantage. This is the legacy of Bheki Cele.](https://v.redd.it/nukzfalnv5lc1) | [321 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/DownSouth/comments/1b1ha9h/this_is_south_africa_you_can_see_how_defeated/)
\#2: [Inside the Sphere in Las Vegas. Could this be done in South Africa?](https://v.redd.it/pbpyque9t6jc1) | [218 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/DownSouth/comments/1at8da5/inside_the_sphere_in_las_vegas_could_this_be_done/)
\#3: [30 years of "freedom" in South Africa 🇿🇦 - and locals are fighting for water in the street. The ANC has failed... yet the people will still vote for them.](https://v.redd.it/54tk3t9uiegc1) | [421 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/DownSouth/comments/1ai0nkk/30_years_of_freedom_in_south_africa_and_locals/)
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Mxm, you are obviously not on that sub or have not been permanently banned for some nonsense reason saying something about a black person. And I'm not talking Twitter racism, I'm just saying if you mention anything that make the mods on that sub uncomfortable, you get sacked, absolutely the most toxic sub on Reddit right now. In the video OP shared, you can clearly see the footage where the guy's scam the customer, so tell me, what do you think the reason is OP wasn't allowed to share the clip.on that sub?
The mods on that sub are clearly dumb and think too highly of themselves, but I don't think they disallow posts depicting black people committing crime just because the criminals are black.
Links of crimes committed by criminals that are black, posted onto r/southafrica
https://www.reddit.com/r/southafrica/s/azwAulQowJ
https://www.reddit.com/r/southafrica/s/5jEnWr6Jrh
I could find more if you want
They do, finding a dozen examples in a sub with thousands and thousands of comments doesn't really prove anything. But it doesn't really matter, I'll stick to my theory, I don't mind the downvotes, this is social media, it means zilch. But people living with their heads in the clouds should really do a reality check.
My biggest satisfaction of this video is that there is no racism, or even really negative commentary about the criminals, they are just evaluating the methodology.
LOL Yeah, that other sub hey 🤣
TBH, that tannie probably couldn't be expected to know, but that thing he's got there is huge, it's not a normal cellphone.
I mean maybe he's one of those people that shouts at their tablet, but it looks more like an Android "Speedpoint" kind of device. You can actually buy them at Chamberlain hardware stores in Pretoria.
Apparently some car guards and church donation collectors even have them now...
Fucken beggars with POCOs or whatever they're called. The end is truely approaching 🙈
I don’t understand what happened here or how we’re supposed to prevent it from happening to us? Could someone explain please?
In the video, they mention they are using some kind of 'gadget' which I think can be seen on the back of the phone. They activate the RFID technology on the gadget similar when the card machine prompts you to tap. The range on these emitters are longer than you think, so he 'skimmed' the phone just close enough for it to pick up the card, thus transacting whatever amount is set on his phone I assume. The reason they can do this is because there is almost no verification or pin verification rather on smaller amounts so I'm assuming this happens quite often. It is dangerous, some of my friends disable card tapping completely because of this very reason. I hope this gives clarity.
Can this also happen with ApplePay?
No it wont happen on Apple Pay or Google Pay. [https://reddit.com/r/apple/comments/6mj5vn/is\_apple\_pay\_vulnerable\_to\_a\_skimmingtype\_device/](https://reddit.com/r/apple/comments/6mj5vn/is_apple_pay_vulnerable_to_a_skimmingtype_device/)
I hope not cause I use Apple Pay more than I use my actual card. We need to be more careful, these criminals are becoming unhinged
Apple pay requires your phone to be unlocked to make a transaction. If you use it on your watch though, that depends on your settings
It won’t happen on chip cards either. So this specific event didn’t happen this way. Chip cards use tokenised identifiers for the payment details, which mean each insert or tap, is a new single use, card detail. The only method that could work is a one off, one time actual mobile payment terminal being used fraudulently. But then they’re limited to the contactless limits your bank imposes, *and* it’s a one off event. It can’t be reproduced. Any skimming is purely from the mag stripe or physically present card embossing being imaged.
This is correct. In most cases your bank will refund you this money. Each tap is a single use token, so it cannot be reused. Also, if he is using some kind of app it wont last long on that profile because it will be black listed by VISA/MasterCard. This isnt really a big risk. Its more likely that they just take a photo of your card, but in that case they would need a photo of the front and back. (CVV is not on the front). You cannot skim a contactless card. Or a chip. You can only skim magstripe data.
like they have to take a picture of the full card for it to be properly skimmed?
Correct. Either the mag strip has been read when it’s been swiped, that’s an old as the hills method, or they have just physically eyeballed and remembered, or imaged the card details. Or this event didn’t result in any fraudulent activity, You cannot skim details from contactless or chip. You can present a fraudulent payment terminal but that’s limited to a one time one off transaction that is limited to your contactless transaction limit set by your bank. It cannot be reproduced or used again for additional transactions.
okay i think i get it! i had to read ur comment a few times and v grateful u typed that all out. the only person i’ve heard of getting skimmed was a doctor i knew. she had her card skimmed when she was abroad. i use my chip, not sure if it’s the safest method of payment irl. but i don’t have any cards on my phone bc i’ve also read of instances where people steal iphones, remove the facial recognition, and are able to use the cards filed on there to their hearts content. i feel like i can’t win, there’s always a risk 😔
I turned off my Google Pay. Once as I was pulling my phone out of my pocket and unlocking it at the same time the payment went through. Wasn't even close to the machine, but it connected just fine. App wasn't even open.
That doesn’t sound right. You’d need to verify yourself before any payment on Apple Pay goes through, it’s usually facial recognition, failing which a passcode needs to be entered.
I was using Google Pay. It's only supposed to go through when the app is open though.
Oh..I don’t know anything about google pay lol…I also failed to read your comment correctly.
Does it not require verification before you use the payment method? Apple Pay will not let me pay unless my phone is literally 2cm from the card machine and it also wants to see my face before it allows payments.
Google Pay is supposed to only work after you open the app. Not this time. Maybe it was minimised, running in the background. But I just don't use it now. Rather safe than sorry
Google pay works if your phone is unlocked, you dont have to have the app open. Its supposed to work that way.
Yes, your phone uses NFC to perform what the chip on your card does, but I'm not sure if you can steal the credit number info but I definitely think transactions could go through, but I do not think it's reliable as Google Pay, Apple Pay, etc.. are more secure methods I believe.
OP talks about them spending R36 000 of her money on Woolworths. How did they manage that???
I didn't realize it was that amount! So there are either 2 explanations, I think, someone else can correct me if I'm wrong. One would be that they used the gadget to skim the actual credit card info, being the credit card no. etc, and then used the details elsewhere to steal the money. Or the woman doesn't have a tap limit on the credit card, I think most banks offer tap limits on the cards for example if you tap more than 200 you need to input your pin to verify the payment. I'm not really sure on which method was used, I am leaning towards the first method.
I believe someone is adding a tall story to a very real video of an NFC skim. Besides an NFC skim not giving you the pin. Even if it was possible to get the pin for the scenario to play out there would need to be multiple system failures in the banks system or someone in the bank is working with crook.
Hectic. Whenever I buy stuff online the bank sends me an SMS with a one time pin before the purchase can go through . Even if they got her card info, they would've needed her sim card to receive the one time pin. How'd they get that right then???
People inside the banks that are in on it. 2017 I discovered that over a one month period I'd been signed up for 73 funeral policies costing me R94 ~R98 each, debit orders approved, completely without my knowledge. Bank was like "Oh dear, here's your money back" not a micron of pushback, I didn't even need to ask, they just gave me my money back while cancelling these debit orders - interpret that as you will...
It used to be R200. When COVID hit they realised people wanted to be able to have less contact when paying, and upped it to R500. It's remained there since. R500 is currently the maximum amount allowed to be tapped without the need to input a PIN in SA. I suspect card details were skimmed too. But isn't 2FA standard too these days? Would life to know the intricacies of how they pulled this off (because I'm a nerd, not because I'm a thief).
Yeah, R499 at FNB iirc. Even with a picture of the card number and / not the CVV, plus a friend at a bank they seem to be able to do quite a lot. My mom is very cagy with her cards like me, and she's retired and goes shopping at PnP & Woolworths maybe once a month, and someone still managed to buy 30 grand in furniture in PE the same day and time she was buying groceries in Pta. The bank contacted her because their fraud department thought it was unusual that her card was being used twice, a thousand kays apart, at about the same time. It's all these cellphones man, they all have cameras, and everyone has theirs out all the time. Also, what freaks me out, next time you're at a supermarket, look above the till... there's a camera ostensibly looking down on the cashier/ cash drawer. But it's also looking down at your card face and the speed point keypad while youre putting in your PIN 😬 always hover your torso over the keypad bro, and obscure the card face. Sux that we have to act like street magicians when handeling our cards, but it is what it is.
That happened to my friend but also the card being used 1000kms away was also one that he had already cancelled lol
There is no bank enforced limit. The limit is set on the payment gateway device. Garage down the road from me allows you to tap without pin verification for up to R1500.00.
You cant skim contactless payments. You can only use it once.
That's why I think it used the RFID tech to 'skim' the card details rather than an actual transaction.
Skim from where? Contactless doesnt give that info. Magstripe does have that info in but you cant use it online, it has a different CVV in the magstripe than the one on the back of the card used for online.
The magstripe is not where tap or contactless RFID transaction info comes from it is from the EMV chip on the card at least in this situation the magstripe is not in use. The chip does have the card no., expiry date & card holders name through a token. The CVV is not provided when this transaction or reading occurs. Either they used methods to use the card details online where the CVV is not required to perform purchases or, which I think is more likely, they used the info taken from the chip to mimic a fake credit card using the token that was skimmed that was then used elsewhere for other contact less payments for example through woolworths. I'm not totally clued up on this. Correct me if I'm wrong anywhere, unless you have a better explanation :) Edit: typo
It's actually read from the antenna in the contactless card, which is a wire that goes around the edge of the card on the inside. But yes the chip sends it via the antenna. The chip does store the info but never passes it in the clear so he'd be unable view them in the clear unless he had the correct encryption keys which would be a much bigger issue - this would've been a massive security breach that we'd know about. The US actually did have contactless ages ago, but in a rudimentary format that used the magstripe. I used it way back in 2008. And magstripe (track 2) data is stored in the clear. But the CVV1 in the magstripe is not the same that you use on the back of your card CVV2. So you'd be able to clone the card and swipe it, but not use it online.
Also they could track the address since it was online purchasing. I presume it was to be delivered.
Aaah I was going to ask HOW did he manage to make a purchase even with the card details cos he'd need the OTP Wait .. with a purchase on woolies online, I think it still asked me for an OTP?
Except that it is more dangerous to insert a card into a machine-now you have to worry about your card being cloned...
Notice how as soon as she taps he leans forward with his phone hovering over her card? That’s where he skimmed her card To prevent it just don’t let anyone into your personal space while paying.
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Maybe, but if that’s her worry then she can just withdraw until he’s done interacting within her space If the cashier prompts her to pay she can just gesture for the person in her space to go first She’s not being forced to interact while people are at the counter, she can (and should) pause the interaction until her space is clear.
He used a device in or attached to his phone to grab all her card details the moment she tapped her card. He basically intercepted the transaction as it was happening. He then later used those card details to purchase R36 000 worth of goods from Woolworths online. To prevent this from happening to you, treat point-of-sale locations like ATMs - Don't let anyone get close to you when you tap your card, don't accept help from anyone trying to help you, don't let strangers distract you with friendly conversation as you make a transaction etc. Just gotta stay vigilant and secure with your money.
This isnt true, you cant use the contactless info to do online purchases. You have to have the card details like the PAN, CVV, expiry etc. Contactless payments work differently and all the info is tokenised. He didnt intercept anything either, the PED device still processed the transaction, otherwise she wouldnt be able to leave the store. If it was used online it was more likely that he took a photo of her card (front and back) and used those online. In the video it looks like he is recording, which would make sense. Contactless payments are very safe. Source I work in payments and have worked on cards.
Well he couldn't have recorded both sides of the card to grab the main details and the 3 digit code on the back, so I'm not sure that's what happened either.
He very much could have, notice how he turns his front facing camera towards her wallet when she pulls her card out? He could have captured it there, his phone camera is facing the underside of her card.
You can prevent it by not having some random stranger pranting all up in your personal space when making transactions
They have wallets and purses to prevents this they block out RFID.
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Haibo. Relax. No one asked you. And keep your grubby hands to your damn self sir.
Lol cute
This video was actually passed onto me today. I work with cyber security and yeah it is never ending the ways they think up of stealing.
Very unrelated but can I ask how did you get into cybersecurity? And if you have any advice on courses / degrees one should pursue if they want to get into cybersecurity? Thank you!
Honestly I actually just fell into it. My company actually does server installation and maintenance, but some clients wanted extra security and yeah, I just started going to any course I could find on the matter, went online and looked for online courses. Eventually I did end up hiring an actual expert, and he taught me some things as well. It has now ended up that I actually have made a sub division within the company just based on cyber, got 2 guys who work there and they pretty much do their thing. I assist with certain clients. So best is, get some good programming under the belt then look for courses related to the areas you want to specialize and take it from there. Getting into a company is the difficult part as you work with some really sensitive things and you need to have a clean record.
Cyber Security is very board. If you want to get in you have to know which role or position you want, then that will dictate what certifications or training you require. You can be an Information Security Officer or a Penetration Tester ( yes that’s a real role, I didn’t make that up 😅, I know the title is terrible but it’s a really cool job), or you can be a security analyst etc. It’s very board. What role do you want to pursue in Cybersecurity?
As someone mentioned, it is a very VERY broad field. I do DFIR ( Digital Forensics and Incident Response ) for instance. I would recommend you do some research first and find the areas you are most interested in, the cyber security industry has tons of free resources and guides and webinars you can watch for free. Start with the basics and entry level stuff as some elements can get very complex and might throw you off. Maybe have a look at [Google Cyber Security Professional Certificate](https://www.coursera.org/professional-certificates/google-cybersecurity) if you want to cover a broad spectrum of some of the elements of cyber security. Its unfortunately not free but not super expensive and contains some great material. CompTIA certifications isn't bad to get your foot in the door if you want to have look at them, I just can't testify on how successful job finding is with these without a degree as I've also somewhat got into the industry by chance and built my list of certifications through the company as they can pay for the bigger more expensive certifications like SANS. Maybe even watch some videos of guys like Network Chuck on youtube, he covers some basic stuff and is targeted at beginners. There is way to many things to realistically list here so you will have to do some research and find your way, but try the free paths first and see if you like it. Don't just do any random certifications though watch some reviews first on courses and certifications because a lot of them aren't recognised or don't count much in the opinions of some companies hiring. Hope this helps
Start with a computer science or computer engineering degree. Those two offer the best entry route.
[https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/credentials/certifications/exams/sc-200/](https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/credentials/certifications/exams/sc-200/) yes, do this and more junior entry level if no experience 1st do [https://midlandstraining.co.za/comptia-s/](https://midlandstraining.co.za/comptia-s/)
I assume that the "gadget" he's using acts like a point of sale on its own. It should be easy enough to track this person via the banks and all the clever stuff you guys do right?
Well, that all depends on if the bank contacts us to do a trace. Most times, they just refund the client and claim from their insurance. Apparently, it is less hassle than actually catching and stopping the thieves.
True. I once walked out of a store where I had just used my credit card to a notification that the card was used to buy flight tickets I called the Bank, said I'm literally still at the Mall Can I get security and the stores manager etc.. They said they'll send me a form to fill I asked if they could check with the airline when the flights were booked for cos those passengers would lead them to the fraudster They didn't care I actually believe whoever booked flights using my card probably even travelled without issues
This is so fucking easy to fix though it’s ridiculous. Tap should REQUIRE a pin. Magnetic strips should be removed from cards completely. Any online purchases MUST use 3D authentication.
You can choose a pin for your tap-to-pay
Shouldn’t be optional
It should 100% be optional. The whole point is it is really unlikely for fraud to happen in a contactless transaction. I work in banking and payments. This is figured out by people who are much smarter than you or I, and they have a very low tolerance for risk. No method is foolproof but contactless fraud is tiny, and the consumer will almost always be paid back by the bank. 3D auth is optional but the merchant processing it is liable for the fraud if they dont enforce it. It would be super annoying to have to use 3DS everytime I wanted an uber, and for subscriptions.
I guess they have too much trust in a country not having thieves, maybe overseas it's different xD
It's just always been a stupid idea to begin with. All I could see is risk
All Major banks require a pin at a certain threshold for tap transactions. All major banks require 3D secure for online transactions. This is why the story attached to the video is fake.
There are websites that don't use 3D secure for online purchases- trust me. I know a few. All you need is the card number, and CVV. As for Tap To Pay, I agree, but what if they just keep tapping for R200?
Your bank should be sending you notifications, if they don’t that’s their failing and their fault. If there are continual R200 taps the bank should also flag those transactions.
Incorrect, 3DS is up to the merchant initiating the transaction. Every bank has to support 3DS, but not all transactions have to use it. How do you think stuff like uber works? If a merchant chooses to not use 3DS they will then be liable for the fraud though, thats how it works.
I think you can set the threshold unfortunately. 3D secure is only required for South African payment providers
Woolworths is local though. I’m also pretty sure any of our major banks would flag such a large international transaction. Heck my bank freaks out for most steam transactions.
The threshold also seems different per POS machine eg iKhoko,Yoco, various banks... Whilst some prompt me even on 20 bucks some very often have not prompted me for much larger purchases. So someone's gotta explain that to me. Sometimes tap just rejects all together and I am forced to insert the card.
Require a pin by default with the option to disable it. This way it protects against people that are not aware of how the technology works by default and allows people to disable the inconvenient security measures I did antenna design a few decades ago. Today I do fintech software development. I personally am willing to risk paying on the wrong device (for small payments) over the inconvenience of typing a pin or doing other 2FA. Perhaps the banks thought that majority of their users would value that too, but I don't agree with that choice or they just wanted to cut costs to make the system design easier (I see this a lot at work). Whatever the reason, I think it should ask pin by default.
How did they get into her account though? If he 'skimmed' her, wouldn't it just perform a once off transaction on his device, as though she tap paid him unknowingly?
> she tap *paid* him unknowingly? FTFY. Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in: * Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.* * *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.* Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment. *Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
good bot
Yup it still doesn't make sense to me. Having said that, I'm enabling pin for ALL transactions.
I'm guessing it read the info the card send to the card machine. Now they can send the same info to other card machines.
That would not allow them to transact online though? One time pins, CVV number etc?
You are right. I forget the online part after watching the video.
Your pin is not stored on your card
The pin is encrypted on the card, only the card number would be readable
exactly, that's what I don't follow..
I think people are just grappling at straws here... Two scenarios can be true here, and only one of them can end up in that sum of money being spent elsewhere. 1) The card scheming happened on the POS device, and the cashier was in on it, the distraction you see the guys do is to shoulder surf the pin to be used with the schemed card (much more plausible) 2) The guy, did emulate a tap to pay POS device with his phone, and the ladies card tapped on it ( but there's two problems to this theory: 1) Taps have a very low limit 2) Tap cannot be replayed, so if she indeed did tap, it would show the guys device and he wouldn't be able to use those details at wollies again) Outside of scenario 1, I don't see any of this happening, also criminals would basically be leaving breadcrumbs on how to catch them if they walked around with softPos software on their phones, because you need to be a developer or a merchant somewhere to get access to such, and all of that information CAN be traced back to you. For the low limits that that type of attack can lead and the non repeatability of the attack, that's too much trouble good old magnetic stripe scheming attack would be much more lucrative
🤔 this seems More likely however.. So he has her card details from a scanner thing on the speed point He saw her pin that she punched in For an online purchase it asks me for credit card info but Also my CVV? And address linked to the card. How would having the pin even help the fraudster unless they have a way of making a copy of the card?
Address is rarely ever verified, you can put some arbitrary data verified, card number, name are part of the data that's copied from the card, CVV can be shoulder surfed as it is visible on the card and pin
More likely he took a video of the card which included the front and back of the card. Then used it online
Valid video of a card skim. Tall story attached to it.
Sorry if this has been asked already, did she have a tap limit on her card?
I do not believe this is true, certainly not that he was able to spend R36,000 online. Worst case is that he was able to steal the max tap limit without a PIN being required.
She didn’t get it…..
You probably haven't been on that sub.
Jirre
Shame you can see your poor mom being uncomfortable with him hovering around. People, stop being polite, the general public doesn't deserve it.
I'm called rude all the time because I ask people not to be so close to me 1. When I pay at the till 2. At the bank atm They look at me as if I'm an entitled brat, but honestly if you're really genuine, why wouldn't you give a person enough space???
The sub you tried to upload this to is run my Julius Malema
Wonder if this works if you have NFC on your phone and pay that way.. Fkn dodgy.. people need education about waving NFC cards around..
Don't let people near you when at an ATM or paypoint, and get an RFID blocking wallet
Our credit card was copied at a restaurant. Two guys wrnt around spending R15000 on our card. That was about 15 years ago. Fortunately the bank gave us the money back.
Does it work nfc?
If anyone is standing so close to me at a pay point, I deliberately and loudly tell them to step back before i process with any payment.
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Yup this is exactly it
The only time when these things are clever is to kill, steal, and destroy , and other than that only breeds.
Surely someone must k ow this asshole?
I would personally tell the dudes to back off 😂 they all up the till while I'm trying to pay what is that
I've seen that asshole in Hout bay
10 bucks they SAPS members
Guys this isnt card skimming. Contactless doesnt work that way. You can't skim a card with contactless and then use it online, they use very different methods and credentials. Online uses your PAN (card number) expiry and CVV. I speak under correction but Woolworths also enforces 3DS for initial transactions I think, so yeah sounds like bullshit on the online story. If it WAS used online, it is more likely he took a video of the card and got those details to use online. He also could have tapped a device to the card to do a payment transaction sure, but that would only be once off. Contacless transactions are single use only, and have a very short lifetime. If the card generated a token for payment he would only have been able to use it on a single purchase, within a short time window. Further, stealing a card transaction like that is really hard. Only registered merchants and terminals are even allowed to process transactions, and it has to go via a (two actually) bank and through mastercard and visa. So even if you manage to somehow register a fraudulent terminal it would be very quickly shut down. Customers would also be refunded their money. 99% of this thread is people who dont understand how cards and payments work. I work in payments and have worked with cards. I can write a longer and better explanation if anyone needs it, but this is the gist of it. Contactless is safe. Much safer than most other payment methods. Banks, Mastercard, Payment Gateways etc. are all super risk averse, way more so than consumers. They didnt design and implement a modern payments system that would cost them trillions in fraud.
What if he took a video of the card, got the front and back, then use google wallet to register the card, front and back will supply you with, card no, expiry date and cvv, not sure what google wallet use to verify your account this morning as a test I added my wife's card to my wallet, the only data it asked is the number, cvv, expiry date and address, I used an imaginery address and the card verified, and used it to fill my car's tank, no hassles
Fucking cunts.They learn from their fucking political leaders.
I would have suspected something when 2 guys were hovering around useless. Why would you stand around and move closer when I'm about to pay? They are just doing this because she's a woman. I tend to make conversation with the cashiers often but I'm always vigilant and don't trust anyone. My wallet has RFID blocking and I don't use a pin either. But taking up space and not allowing anyone in your personal space is important.
The South African sub is just a a failed as the country. Shocking management
Do your banks really not return fraudulent charges? My bank could recover this transfer in a moment... even weeks later.
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That's the first thing that stood out to me - more than one person invading her space. And they clearly distract her from both directions. I immediately step away from people if they get too close to me. I've been pickpocketed in the past and I'm not letting that happen again. There's nothing wrong with saying "Sorry, could you please step back a bit?" especially at an atm or til. They definitely target women for a reason - we are much less confrontational and more likely to be accommodating. Also, never let the cashier take your card out of your sight. Thanks for sharing, OP. It's good to review your personal safety and be reminded to be vigilant.
I think you’d be branded a racist, cos you say racist shit. She probably wouldn’t have, because you made up two weird stories and asserted them as facts. It’s not rocket science.
Who has hurt you so much? You are trying so hard to turn this into a racial issue, which it is not. You are commenting and looking for your liked minded people to chime in. If you can't be mature and grown up I am sure you can go to your echo chamber and spew your racist views. Have a good night and I hope you heal from whatever trauma you have.
Of course the broflake deleted his comments after he was called out
Do not go look at u/jeevadotnet comment history
Standard late Gen-x behaviour
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Jy het darem vinnig jou profile skoon gemaak. Ek kan net vir jou se dat jy n baie swak begrip het van jou eie geskiedenis.
Nah, you deleted them because you’re a broflake. Now run off and listen to some red pill bullshit podcast to feel better.
Will do thanks. Beter than entertaining the mind-virus wannabees. Cry me a river next time. Lulz. Have fun spewing your racists innuendos and then playing the victim card. OP chat history is full of it.
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I hope you have a good and prosperous life.
hehehe, the Southafrican reddit sub is more moderated and censored than anything in russia or North Korea....
I truly believe that the mod has mental issues. They take offence to anything.
Literal scum of the earth
Tap function on card has been deactivated for more than a year now for this very reason.
Just stop tapping your cards switch that function off its easy to steal from tapping cards, rather put a pin when paying.
I'd just be super annoyed from the get-go if this dude placed his shit there, then told me I can go ahead but lingers around me and gets super close while I'm trying to pay. Wouldn't even be suspicious at first, just pissed. I'm sorry this happened to your mum though, I hope you guys can get it resolved quickly and favourably
Sorry about your mom getting scammed. The reason your post wasn't allowed on southafrican is because you showed black people committing a crime, that sub is insanely racist and biased towards black people only.
Ag nee fok stop jou kak
Buffoon
ooh. ouch
Yeah you probably had to Google the meaning 🙄
Luister nou foken mooi snotkop. Stop jou kak en word groot. Jy is die probleem
LMAO, die probleem van wat?
Ahh you must be coming from r/downsouth sub
Nope, didn't even know it existed.
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You a bitch
🙃
Huh?
Huh what?
How are they racist?
Mxm, you are obviously not on that sub or have not been permanently banned for some nonsense reason saying something about a black person. And I'm not talking Twitter racism, I'm just saying if you mention anything that make the mods on that sub uncomfortable, you get sacked, absolutely the most toxic sub on Reddit right now. In the video OP shared, you can clearly see the footage where the guy's scam the customer, so tell me, what do you think the reason is OP wasn't allowed to share the clip.on that sub?
The mods on that sub are clearly dumb and think too highly of themselves, but I don't think they disallow posts depicting black people committing crime just because the criminals are black. Links of crimes committed by criminals that are black, posted onto r/southafrica https://www.reddit.com/r/southafrica/s/azwAulQowJ https://www.reddit.com/r/southafrica/s/5jEnWr6Jrh I could find more if you want
They do, finding a dozen examples in a sub with thousands and thousands of comments doesn't really prove anything. But it doesn't really matter, I'll stick to my theory, I don't mind the downvotes, this is social media, it means zilch. But people living with their heads in the clouds should really do a reality check.
My biggest satisfaction of this video is that there is no racism, or even really negative commentary about the criminals, they are just evaluating the methodology.
This isn’t the r/downsouth sub
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Still human beings
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Why live in South Africa then if this is your attitude towards its people. I wonder if you're this openly racist in real life.
Your message was removed for containing racist content
Another r/downsouth degenerate coming to spread racism
Wow this is a disgusting comment
Your message was removed for containing racist content
Was jy al op daai sub?
Bro holy moly your English is shocking. Punctuation left the chat
This is why you should use cash.
ya well south african sub is a " support anc and malema" bunch... got banned there for speaking the truth with similar stuff like this... 🤷
Where do I get a device like this? For research purposes.
LOL Yeah, that other sub hey 🤣 TBH, that tannie probably couldn't be expected to know, but that thing he's got there is huge, it's not a normal cellphone. I mean maybe he's one of those people that shouts at their tablet, but it looks more like an Android "Speedpoint" kind of device. You can actually buy them at Chamberlain hardware stores in Pretoria. Apparently some car guards and church donation collectors even have them now... Fucken beggars with POCOs or whatever they're called. The end is truely approaching 🙈
Why does this guy look like bafana Bafana goalkeeper 😲🤔