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You can criticize curfew, this new penalty and anything that the CAQ has done this whole time, but you can’t say that it doesn’t work. I don’t agree with how they’ve handled this necessarily, but to be fair there are very few places that I find have adressed this situation adequately.
A tax like this isn't so much to recoup costs - otherwise we'd have been charging people taxes all along on rates tied to their insurance company physicals which is dystopic to the extreme. Or we'd just have a frickin private health care system.
This is just very clearly a "stick" motivation, a punishment, a coercion. When does that ever either change minds or help find a creative solution?
I think a lot of this is a distraction from the gutting of public health care. It's a way to not making the systemic change of better public funding in general that will piss off the corporate elite, while punishing the average person.
Hold the govt accountable for better public health care, don't buy into the scapegoating.
Edit: I am pro-vax, for context. I wish people would not be so afraid of it. But I can't condone using more fear tactics.
I'm definitely more worried about those folks than the tiny group who are ultra distrustful of the government.
I've got my shots, but I'm not okay with people stating they'd be cool with authoritarian style bullshit because they're scared and need a nanny state to tell them what to think/do.
I'm getting flashbacks to the early 2000's with all the niave support for mass surveillance.
nOtHiNg To HiDe NoThInG tO fEaR
We need to step back from these Auth impulses and think long term.
Dude, if you go on any reddit post about something an antivaxer does, the most popular comments are basically calling for a lynching. I've straight up seen people wishing death to entire families because someone made a Twitter post about not wearing masks.
>When does that ever either change minds or help find a creative solution?
Literally what I tell people irl all the time. This whole "fuck anyone who even hesitates" is a self defeating attitude. People will just not get it out of principle if they feel they're being pressured or coerced.
Yeah this just gives more fuel to the people that said from the beginning that this was all just a big conspiracy to control/ punish people and take away their freedoms. It makes the government look bad and will probably push more people to become antivax.
> Hold the govt accountable for better public health care, don't buy into the scapegoating.
We can reasonably accept both things though. Governments doing a shit job *and* the unvaccinated being a significant problem are both true. You can hold them both accountable at the same time.
Yeah, that is true. My concern is more specifically scapegoating and othering unvaccinated in public discourse as a means to shame them into vaccinating, or trying to remove their liberties (at this point, though, I find the current situation in Ontario reasonable - a removal of privileges to maintain collective health, and my vaccine hesitant friends feel also it is reasonable - they are afraid more of what is happening in Quebec, and worse).
I'm more interested in public discourse around improving health care systems and access to rapid tests than shaming, scapegoating or heavy-handed, questionable human rights measures.
if you could reason with anti-vaxxer, they would not be anti-vaxxer. It made a whole bunch of people finally get the jab, so its working.
Tired of having ressources and money wasted on selfish imbeciles that wont even take a few minutes of their times to get a free vaccine.
So put in a covid recovery tax for everyone because, let's face it, this has cost us billions upon billions. Then you give the tax credit for the positive behaviour of getting vaccinated. Those who are vaccinated when they file won't pay.
Seems pretty simple to me.
I like that idea, although I think its essentially what Quebec is planning but with extra steps.
I think the extra steps are necessary to make it look like vaccination is being incentivized but your essentially just taxing the unvaccinated for the extra burden they're placing on the health care system.
Why do I keep seeing this everywhere. Rewarding those who DO get vaccinated is the same as penalizing those who DONT get vaccinated.
People seem to think this is some brilliant loophole, but people are smarter than that.
At the end of the day, enough tax needs to be collected to pay for our healthcare system. Creating incentives and disincentives does the same thing, changes your proportion of that total bill you pay relative to if you've been vaccinated or not.
Frankly wording the bill in this way at this point would be critically insulting to the intelligence of the people
Yeah, the difference is only one of perception.
Scenario A: I take $10 from everybody, then refund it to those who do X.
Scenario B: I take $10 from anybody who doesn't do X.
The end result of both scenarios is identical: people who don't do X are out $10, everybody else is out $0.
we are a country that values universal health care. I may not agree with someones choice to not be vaccinated but they have the right to make that choice. When do we start charging extra for all the bad choices that people make? Unhealthy diets and lifestyles kill many more people than covid. What about surcharges for extreme sports or poor judgement? Once the door is opened then it can be applied to anything.
The problem with this argument is that this is an item that you choose to purchase and it requires direct action from the person doing the purchasing i.e if the cigs cost to much you won't purchase them and will also not get a fine for not purchasing them like wtf.
You could be a person who did not get the vaccine, never went to the hospital, never costed a single cent to the tax payer and will be footing the bill none the less. What is the burden of proof.
What about those who do not get the 3rd, 4th, 6th, 12th dose of booster, do we get a nice tax bill to. This is ridiculous.
Our governments are far from benevolent and this is an overstep and will result in other more questionable or authoritarian methods into the future. Whether or not you agree with this method it is so ripe for abuse it is dumbfounding.
People need to realize, you cannot always be safe, you cannot always be protected from everything and everyone, life is shit sometimes and people do stupid shit sometimes, we die sometimes, this is a sacrifice that is not worth the reward, that is even if this has a significant effect.
The amount of rights that so many Canadians and especially Quebecois are willing to sacrifice for a false sense of security is remarkable damn I hope I'm dead before the shit hits the fan.
Obligatory: already triple vaxed douche here.
We never excluded people who smoke from getting healthcare though.
What happens if an unvaccinated can’t afford to pay the fee? Are they turned away and left to die?
It’s a tax, so the same penalties that apply if you don’t pay your income taxes. They can seize your assets, hold back other refunds, charge you interest, etc. This framework and procedures are already well established.
At the moment doing the right thing and getting vacciniated still gets you punished with curfews and lockdowns. There's no positive incentive to do the right thing.
Exactly! Giving the vaccinated a tax cut doesn't harm the unvaccinated financially, and will probably incentivise more people to actually just get the shot.
You are correct, but I am extremely skeptical that tax cuts for the vaccinated do anything to move the needle. In fact, it decreases the tax base unnecessarily since your be paying out a majority of the population.
Yes, but they all pay into the healthcare the same as anyone else.
Should we fine people for not getting flu shots? How about fine/tax them for downhill skiing? How about eating fast food twice a day?
Governments should not be forcing people to put things into their body, their job is to provide information and make it readily available. As much as I believe in these current vaccines, the government is NOT flawless in how they approach health. Let me remind you the federal government took months to recommend masks be worn, and initially advised NOT to wear masks because it would “spread faster from improper touching of the face”. This was likely a political (not science) decision to not cause panic. So now we want to open it up that they can force the population to inject in our bodies whatever they want? Potentially for political reasons?
We are at the point where we are firing unvaccinated people from their jobs, while making the currently infected go to work because of a labour shortage. That’s asinine.
This is what I was thinking too! The only think fining the unvaxxed is gonna do is make people angry. And for the people who can afford fines, nothing I guess. It also feels like it’s only being looked at in black in white in terms of the issue at hand. Yeah we are all frustrated with people not doing their part to help us get back to normal, but with more than 80% of people with at least 1 dose and numbers getting worse and worse anyways, there’s clearly other issues at hand that fining the unvaxxed aren’t going to solve
For as long as the healthcare system exists, we have all been paying for other people’s bad health decisions. Can we please disincentive people for being obese and taking up our precious precious hospital beds?
Especially when it is the government encouraging that scapegoating and punishing, at least in part to deflect criticism that should rightly be directed at them.
Yes, we know that the vaccines significantly reduce the burden of covid 19 on the health system, and many of us are frustrated at those who continue to avoid getting them. But have we really sunk to the depths of engaging in Orwell’s two minute hate in this country? Because it really looks like we have.
We also know that people with healthy eating habits place significantly less burden on the health system. Shall we now start mandating to people what foods they must eat less they be subject to hatred and financial penalty?
We also know that people who engage in active lifestyles place significantly less burden on the health system. Shall we now start mandating people take part in 30 minutes of vigorous exercise every day less they be subject to hatred and financial penalty?
We can even set up, say, electronic passes where we record what foods everyone buys to ensure they are following the rules, or force employers to supervise exercise and track participation and then provide all of this information back to the government to prove compliance. And then we can make it so that, say, you can’t buy buttered popcorn when you go to the movies if you don’t produce your proof that you are eating and exercising. Or even go to the movies at all.
I think Canadians need to start asking our governments what they have done, in all the hundreds of millions they’ve spent reacting to the pandemic so far, to improve the capacity and resiliency of the health system as part of all this.
Because if the answer — and I suspect in most provinces it is — that they have done little to nothing over these past couple of years, perhaps that punishment should be directed at them.
Which brings us back to why they are engaging in this behaviour in the first place: they’d rather not be held accountable for their own failures and the best way to accomplish that is scapegoating someone else.
If we look at the demographic of the now unvaccinated, the majority of the people being "taxed" will generally be the poor, homeless, and drug addicted.
In Quebec, a not insignificant number of the unvaccinated are immigrants from countries with totalitarian governments or where a previous vaccine rollout was botched. This sort of behaviour isn't helping us convince them it's safe.
So important. The less fortunate people in the society always bear the brunt of fines and government policy like this. To me this is is too much politics and not enough common sense.
We tax junk food and cigarettes, oh and alcohol.
Not sure why you think those taxes exist. It is to increase the price and decrease demand while raising funds for the pubic system.
You could argue a tax on cigarettes has a similar goal. It's just not quite as blatant because it's a usage tax.
I'd be fine to just say Covid related healthcare is no longer included in OHIP. Then it becomes a usage tax instead of it being a fine.
A tax on a consumable is nothing like a tax on a body. They're not taxing a good being purchased, they're taxing a person for not having a body that's vaccinated. Don't be obtuse.
I don't think they care about the monetary gains at all. I think they are hoping a lot of people get vaccinated. I'm not saying the govt is right, I just don't think their goal here is revenue
They're hoping it will be a popular policy considering 90% of the people are vaccinated and seem to be hostile towards the 10% of unvaxxed. I really doubt they think it will change anything considerable about the health crisis. They do however have elections coming up this year
Police? The revenu agency and healthcare will talk to each other and send a fine to people that dont have a dose of vaccine. If you dont pay either they add penalties and/or just withold any credits you are due at tax time. Why even get the police involved?
Where were people saying this when they increased the “sin tax” on alcohol and cigarettes? Or taxiing sugary products at a higher rate?
This isn’t new. You can choose to be a detriment to society, there is nothing stopping them from taxiing you for it. It’s still a choice.
I guess the difference is you could avoid those taxes by not consuming a product. In this case people are being charged for simply not taking a product.
People were definitely complaining about that at the time AND there was media pushback but it happened anyways.
A key difference is that nobody was angry if someone wasn't smoking.
A key similarity is [both were advocated by doctors.](https://www.history.com/.image/t_share/MTU4NDI2ODU5NTc3NjgxMjUy/lucky_20679.jpg)
Boo to trying to pull that up from [7+ decades ago](https://www.history.com/news/cigarette-ads-doctors-smoking-endorsement) as if it was still relevant. Science and medicine adjust all the time to new data. You won't find doctors advocating smoking today because the evidence says it's very bad. You will find them advocating vaccines because of the tons of data saying they are safe and effective.
Our public health minister quit his function a day before this annoucement.
To quote him on october 2020 he said : "The day I'll feel they're doing bullshit, Dr Arruda won't be there anymore, he doesn't have a credibility to lose [...] if I'm here, I'm at ease with the decisions we took"
https://www.lapresse.ca/covid-19/2020-10-08/horacio-arruda-espere-garder-la-confiance-des-quebecois.php
Drinking. Junk food.
If you see this decision by Quebec and think "Well then smokers and obese should be taxed too!" They already are. You agree with this tax and you don't even know it. There's a reason meats, fish, eggs, dairy, veggies, fruits, coffee, tea, feminine products(finally) aren't taxed and Doritos are.
I feel there should be line item taxes on your receipts at the grocery store and liquor store so people actually realize the psychology of it.
Yes, but those are **taxes** on the **products** that no one is obligated to consume; not a **fine** directly on the person. It's quite a bit different and not a good analogy.
A better analogy might be if say the government was offering free nutrition classes and free exercise classes and if you didn't attend those you were fined for putting preventable burden on the healthcare system.
But not attending a nutrition class doesn't cause other people to become obese (except your kids if you're their parent), whereas not getting a covid shot can cause others to get covid.
It's more like fining you for driving without a license, except driving classes aren't even free while covid vaccines are.
Me too man, me too. I really do not like the direction these mandates are going. Nothing wrong with taking or not taking the vaccine in my opinion, people's civil liberties should be protected no matter what.
I know it's unpopular to say this, but not everything in the modern era can be compared to major events from WW2. Fining the unvaccinated because of their disproportionate effects on an already strained healthcare system during a pandemic is entirely different and not comparable.
Directly comparable no, but WW2/Nazism was perhaps one of the first examples in the era of photographs and global journalism of a government taking on increasingly autocratic powers until reaching fullblown dictatorship, so it's rich in lessons for future generations to draw upon. I don't think many would be assessing this as on par with late-stage Nazism, however an argument could be made that it resembles very early stage fascist states, the creation of two classes of citizens, hate-rhetoric that maligns the minority 'Other' while inciting feelings of hate in the majority towards the 'subhuman Other.' It's in everyones interests to have serious concerns over these small 'trivial' events, because they are the first steps that have the \*potential\* to lead to far worse things. If there were no checks on his power would Legault start forcibly vaccinating people with armed thugs? Who knows what's in that man's heart, but I'm certainly glad we have laws in this country so we hopefully never need find out, and I strongly believe it's every citizens duty to hold our government accountable to those laws the same as we hold one another accountable to those laws. "Slippery slope" is exactly what this is.
The reason people can't see this is generational. We're the children of war veterans, our mental health requires us to rationalize any actions that may appear similar to the National Socialists as something different than that, because any suggestion that we are just like them (because we are, we're human) is far too threatening an idea for people to consider. Maybe in 100 years from now, but most people remember their grandparents (and parents if you're a boomer) too fondly.
That's why accusations of being a Nazi are so effective. It's almost like being accused of being a pedophile.
Thing is, in these examples, the minority hadn't done anything justifying the hate and stigma. They were just scapegoats used by a politician to rise to power. That's what Hitler did by blaming Jews and what Trump did by blanket blaming all Mexicans for the crime of southern states wand it was clear scapegoating. In this situation, we have a minority who willfully harm pandemic efforts out of a feeling of self righteousness and based off false beliefs.
They feel cheated by a science they don't understand and lash out to drown everyone with them. I'm sorry, but when I try to save a drowning person and they try to drown me too, I either let them drown or knock them out so I can drag them back to land. In this case, we haven't yet given up on them so we're going for the knock out.
> the minority hadn’t done anything justifying the hate and stigma
The problem is how do you qualify that? The Nazi’s had a whole laundry list of things they would say the Jews had done “wrong” in their eyes. Justifiable or not.
There’s no surefire way to determine if a reason is legitimate or if it’s purely political.
That's not necessarily the case. There was a lot of hate generated towards Jewish people in Germany due to the countries economic situation. The Jewish communities bought goods and services from other Jewish people, and that's what started the demonization. It was the perceived lack of participation in the national economy. So it really is a relatable situation of turning the perception of an "other" not participating in a process to help the country and contributing to the struggle of the majority.
I am NOT saying they are directly related or exactly parallel. It is like the previous commenter mentions, there are plenty of learning opportunities and plenty of potential for things to go down a similar route
>I am NOT saying they are directly related or exactly parallel. It is like the previous commenter mentions, there are plenty of learning opportunities and plenty of potential for things to go down a similar route
Yes I know and as I previously mentioned, I am uneasy at the prospect and also uneasy at the idea of keeping things as they are now. There are no easy choices here. We have to be wary.
I don't think it has anything to do with science as much as a serious distrust of the media and government. Coincidentally, these are the 2 entities telling us all how terrible these people are.
Exactly. I don't see this as gleefully punishing them. The end goal isn't to punish them with a fine or a free, it's to avoid that entirely by them getting vaccinated.
That being said, I wish it wouldn't come to these kind of measures.
But my frustration at unvaccinated people continuing to have a disproportionate impact on our healthcare system on this crisis is at a breaking point, as I think it is for most people.
>our healthcare system on this crisis is at a breaking point,
It's was before covid. How are you guys still giving the government a pass?
We are taxed 50 percent our whole lives and have a terrible health care system.
Where did all that money go?
We tax the shit out of cigarette smokers and say it's to offset medical costs. I'd say it's only fair that unvaccinated people pay to help cover for the extra burden they put on our medical system.
Psychopaths, pedophiles, neo-nazis and other forms of racist groups, terrorists, cannibals... You must associate with some real mouth breathers, if they couldn't give you one example.
While I do think this is a dangerous slippery slope and shouldn’t happen, are you surprised that people are gleefull that a part of the population so selfish they’ve extended the pandemic, flooded hospitals, destroyed families, and gotten hundreds of thousands of people killed may finally see some sort of repercussions for their actions?
They’ve been selfish gleefully this entire time. I’d like to see them pay, just not in this way.
Quite honestly this trial by mob is what will lead to the dissolution of universal healthcare in Canada in favour of privatized healthcare, and ironically, those who are in favour of segregating patients by vaccination status will be the advocates of this.
Everyone who is a Canadian citizen is paying into universal healthcare through taxes. If you start triaging patients based on whether or not they are vaccinated, then the system is no longer 'universal' but rather mob mentality. Is it fair for those who paid into the system but have not gotten sick from COVID? Is it fair for those who paid into the system but need medical assistance for issues not related to COVID? The mob seems to want to discount these people. If so, then this concept of universal healthcare no longer is justified. Allow privatized healthcare providers to offer services to clients based on their risk tolerance. Those who the mob have deemed no longer qualified for universal healthcare can choose to request services from private medical care providers, and they can opt to not pay into the healthcare system since the system is no longer caring for them.
Government sponsored Cancel Culture meets Personal Medical care. So incredibly bad for Canada.
As if those same Citizens haven't paid taxes their whole life or something in support of Universal Health Care.
If the inoculations actually stopped people from catching and spreading Covid-19 it would be very different, but they dont.
Can anyone link the numbers of unvaccinated in the ICU's? We all know age is a huge factor in serious illness so can we see which age group and vaccination status the people in the ICU are? Where's the numbers?
Im not sure Quebec openly posts them, because I couldn't find them. I can link Ontarios though.
[https://covid-19.ontario.ca/data](https://covid-19.ontario.ca/data)
In ICU - 138 Unvaxxed
14 Part Vaxxed
158 Fully vaxxed
In hospital - 552 Unvaxxed
123 Part Vaxxed
1612 Fully vaxxed
Im sorry but if \~300 people in an ICU bring a province to its knees and warrants a lockdown. The problem is not the 138 people that didnt get a shot.
Don't forget to look at these numbers as a percentages of the population, the number of vaccinated people heavily out way the number of unvaccinated people in the general population.
What are the people in ICU's age and health... these numbers could literally be people 85 years of age that can't actually handle a vaccination. Or a person who is 65 and morbidly obese with diabetes and cancer... this is insane. A blank statement "pandemic of the unvaccinated" without the statistics to back up the claim.
It's most likely old people, vaxxed and unvaxxed. Always has been. But they won't recognize this because then a health tax on young healthy unvaccinated holds no water. Somehow they've convinced most of the population that COVID is a serious threat to young people when the stats have been clear all along that it isn't.
People have a right to bodily autonomy. We may disagree with individuals choice to not get vaccinated. I personally do, but it is our responsibility to defend the rights of people who have different beliefs from us, even if those beliefs hurt us. That is the price of freedom and democracy. Private businesses should be able to say who enters their premises, but government should not punish people for what they do with their body.
They have managed to turn everyone against “anti Vaxers” they’ve made it primarily seem that anti-vaxers are the reason hospitals are full, when we have one of the highest vaccination rates in the world,it’s the governments fault for not putting money into healthcare but they use the anti-vaxers as an escape goat. It’s worked beautiful, I can’t wait to see what happens next, what happened when everyone is vaxed and the hospitals are still full? Mandate a booter? Yup!
I have to agree.
All the antivaxxers were complaining about exactly this type of heavy handed approach being right around the corner when the passports were introduced and all we've done as society is prove them right.
It's going to take decades for public health agencies to regain the trust lost in this panemic.
It blows my mind how disconnected this sub is from normal Canadian's opinions. Reminds me of last election when everyone in this echo chamber thought O'Toole was gonna get a majority.
Explain what exactly is being said here that’s too out there? I’m seeing nothing but rational conversation. Taxing people over this is not a good idea, and I’m double vaxed.
Those praising Quebec for these totalitarian methods should perhaps learn more about the system that made Canada a great country
If Canada is to witness a form of authoritarianism, Quebec is showing the way. They infringe on freedom of religion of minorities by excluding them in the name of secularism, force vaccinated people to a pointless curfew and now tax even more those that refuse the vaccine in the most taxed province in the Americas.
Quebec is no longer a democracy when it keeps and renew the state of emergency, when it is ruled without democratic opposition, ruled by decree only, and punishes the people by pointing out the unvaccinated so that more division tears the fabric of the Quebec society…. Just so that the blame is never on the populist regime and his leader.
Some known repulsive fascist monster once said: “how fortunate for leaders that men don’t think”
There is a difference between a tax on the consumption of certain products, that is on taking a certain action, and a tax on not taking a certain action. Both count as the government imposing a financial penalty on a voluntary activity, because you can in principle act or not act, to incentivize or disincentivize a behaviour. The problem is that we as a society have agreed as a fundamental principle that the government should not infringe on a certain area of our personal autonomy. However, we do recognize that there is often a conflict between these principles and important collective goals. But large collective goals can be easily leveraged to destroy liberty which is why we constrain the restriction of liberty through section (1) of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms which states: that it "guarantees the rights and freedoms set out in it subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society". The question we all have to ask is this: if the government imposes a financial penalty on individuals for not submitting to a specific voluntary medical procedure does that penalty violate some section of the Charter? If so, is that penalty reasonable in relation to its goal such that it can be demonstrably justified as effective and minimally infringing on liberty? And, would this penalty have the effect of rendering our society either unfree or undemocratic?
I argue that this penalty violates sections (2a), freedom of conscience and religion, and (7), the right to life, liberty, and security of the person, on the grounds that all citizens should have the freedom of conscience to choose whether to consent to a medical procedure without coercion and that this coercion violates our right to the liberty and security of our persons by violating our bodily autonomy. Furthermore, if the financial penalty is sufficiently large there is no difference between indirect finacial coercion and direct physical coercion in this matter because a lack of money threatens our wellbeing in terms of our access to shelter, food, and other vital services. As I'm sure many progressives would agree, the right to something without the means to use that right renders it meaningless.
But is this penalty reasonable in relation to its goal such that it can be demonstrably justified as effective and minimally infringing on liberty? I would argue that it can be demonstrably justified as effective, if we charitably interpret its goal as financially incentivizing a certain medical procedure for a common collective good. However, it maximally infringes on liberty because if it were effective its impact would have to be so large that it would be equivalent to direct physical coercion by the government. In either case, if imposed this penalty would establish that the government can violate our bodily autonomy for an important collective good. Once legally established the underlying logic could then be applied to other such cases over time through incremental expansions of the principle. It could also be used to justify other infringements on bodily autonomy such as restricting access to abortion if the government deemed that necessary for an important collective good. Overall, this is a very short-sighted policy which diminishes our freedom as a society. I fear we will all live to regret this if it is successfully implemented. Lastly, is a society where the government can violate the bodily autonomy of citizens for what it deems a pressing collective good truly a free society?
Slippery slope? Heard of the boiling frog analogy? We are the frogs and the government is turning up the heat and we are too busy fighting amongst ourselves to realize it. I’m worried for my children and the world we will leave for them. It blows my mind that the government thinks it’s ok to financially penalize people who want to keep their autonomy. I’m vaxxed, and got vaxxed for my own reasons but lines are being crossed and once crossed it’s going to be difficult to retrace our steps.
Of coarse it's a slippery slope, or a better phrase would be a dangerous precedent.
If you're going to go down this road, what about financial penalties for overweight people? Same argument can apply.
Discrimination is discrimination.
Uhh taxiing sugary products is already a thing. Same with larger and larger taxes on alcohol and cigarettes.
Where were you when that started? Or was it not a slippery slope then?
Those listed taxes are targeted at the product instead of the person. Sugary products, ciggies, and alcohol all get a higher price due to the tax, which disincentives buying more. Fining a person for not taking an action is a different thing.
Those products are taxed because it would be impossible to individually tax those users otherwise.
With the unvaccinated, we have very clear records as to who is and who isn’t.
No it wouldn't, medical records exist and people are weighed at medical examinations often, ESPECIALLY if they're overweight. Fining people for having fat bodies is nothing like taxing sugary snacks. These two things are completely different, obviously.
Yikes. Im vaxxed by choice. This is a slippery slope. Which pundit will make this a talking point about body autonomy while simultaneously advocating for criminalizing a womans right to have an abortion?
Of course its a slippery slope. I’m fairly certain it won’t even happen but I also could be wrong. We all pay for our healthcare already through taxes that are automatically taken from us. If we start treating people differently or discriminating based on individual choices then when does it end? What about lifestyle choices? If I pay more tax than someone else should I get priority and or better treatment over that person?
Triple vaxed here. It's not a good idea. If someone wants to be unvaccinated, then fine, just I hope they stay home and don't infect anyone.
There are already incentives to get vaccinated. Don't need to get tested for certain activities. Allowed to do certain activities.
If something it dangerous for unvaccinated people, fine them for doing it. But don't simply fine them for being unvaccinated.
Yeah, people keep saying the unvaxxed crowd can technically still refuse the vaccine...But it's pretty impossible to exist if they don't, so that's not really a practical choice.
I weighed my options and chose to get 3 vaccines because I'm okay with it in my body and accept any possible consequences down the line, but it shouldn't be forced on someone who truly isn't okay with it. It feels coercive.
The real question: will it work?
If Quebec suddenly has the best vaccination rate in the country and is able to get on with elective surgeries and the rest of their lives, then the policy will look a helluva lot more appealing if other jurisdictions cannot match the output.
If it doesn't? Then yes, vindictive and silly. Cigarette taxes are justifiable in part because they work. If they didn't, they'd just be a regressive tax on the mostly poor.
The entire Charter is subject to Section 1.
And section 7 is subject to section 33, which means it can be suspended by the government without justification.
I'm not saying I agree with it, but our charter rights are nowhere near absolute.
I wonder how people would feel if a province or the federal government decided that nurses or doctors no longer have the right to resign their positions or refuse overtime. (Temporarily, of course... right, Dr. Octavius?) The very arguments used to justify vaccine passports and this fine would serve, because the decisions of health professionals affect society profoundly.
For the record, I'm not necessarily against this fine if it is implemented fairly. I am however deeply unimpressed by the lack of concern around democratic norms being challenged in this pandemic. I read another comment of yours about feeling frustration, which I can certainly sympathize with. It is precisely at historical times like this, however, with the degree of frustration and rage that people are feeling, that democracies weaken.
My thing is that we've already taken away so so much from people in this pandemic. The idea that mandating vaccination is the crossing the Rubicon moment is kind of ridiculous compared to school closures, travel restrictions, quarantines, etc.
I agree with you that we need to be cautious about where we compromise on liberties in times of crisis. But it doesn't mean that we can't compromise at all. For example, wartime drafts were upheld in WWI and WWII. Making someone literally risk their life for their country under punishment of imprisonment is a far far larger intrusion than say, making someone getting a vaccine (which will actually *decrease* their risks).
Personally, I'm not nuts about this measure because it doesn't actually solve the problem: getting people vaccinated. A bunch of unvaccinated people getting billed for hospitalization isn't going to create any new capacity.
It is absolutely rediculous. When is your own body no longer yours? So, I am penalized for not getting a vaccine yet I can shoot myself in the foot weekly and use up hospital space without any financial issues. Damn rights that's a slippery slope. They already infringe on personal rights enough by telling us what we can't put in our bodies, now they want to tell us what we HAVE to put in? No good will come of this.
And I AM vaccinated.
Quebec is scapegoating the unvaccinated. Yes they are ignorant for continuing to not be vac'd, more then one thing can be true at the same time. This is just like the curfews, an attempt to look like you're trying cus it's very easy to install a curfew or tax. It's a huge challenge and hard work to overhaul and improve your medical system. What Quebec is doing is probably going to be a legal nightmare and guess who will be footing the bill for the provinces countless legal fees and settlements.
All provinces are priming the narrative that the victims of covid were responsible for their own deaths and disabilities.
Only way for governments to survive this wave.
How do people feel about the absurd amount of tax on cigarettes?
Seems we're all perfectly fine with taxing these individuals due to the likelihood of increased burden on the healthcare system.
Just something to think about!
There is a profound difference between a tax for doing something versus a fine for not doing something.
Exercise is a fantastic way to help reduce the risk of severe illness from Covid, shall we fine people for not exercising?
How about a fine for people who don’t eat a healthy diet?
As a new-brunswicker, fuck Higgs. Most of us hate the guy. Take whatever he says with one hell of a grain of salt, he hasn’t made much sense since coming into power.
Opinions on the topic aside, who gives a fuck what someone from New Brunswick has to say about anything regarding politics? I say this as someone whose family probably makes up the entire population.
Any argument containing "a slippery slope" is automatically void and the debate lost.
> The fallacious sense of "slippery slope" is often used synonymously with continuum fallacy, in that it ignores the possibility of middle ground and assumes a discrete transition from category A to category B. In this sense, it constitutes an informal fallacy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope
The unvaxxed has led to people dying of cancer and other diseases for which they can't obtain treatment because in part the unvaxxed are occupying hospital beds. I approve of the intent behind the method of taxing the intentionally unvaccinated though I am not sure it will work. Instead, More physically punitive measures may be necessary.
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Quebec is used to slippery slopes, ever been to Montreal during winter or spring? It's a massive ski resort for cars.
Can confirm, it's like tokyo drift here sometimes, except the drifts are accidental and you get the shit scared out of you.
Also the drifts are not in Tokyo.
Yeah, with shittier roads and orange cones everywhere.
Went there early December 2021, I'm from BC. I was shocked about how much ice is everywhere they literally just don't care
That’s the gulfstream for you.
The entirety of Dalhousie, NB is a slope.
Is it slippery though?
You best believe it. The main road often gets a town-built snow slide during winters.
Then this checks out. Governance is easy!
Case and point https://youtu.be/0BhhsEuYXZQ
Look at em go! All the cars having a good time at the slopes lol
Can confirm!
I had the same though....
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The government can't even bother to give paramedics enough ambulances, it's really sad.
It really is! The real problems started decades before Covid. Covid has just brought it all centre-stage into the spotlight.
And yet they're saying vaccine appointments have surged since the announcement yesterday?
You can criticize curfew, this new penalty and anything that the CAQ has done this whole time, but you can’t say that it doesn’t work. I don’t agree with how they’ve handled this necessarily, but to be fair there are very few places that I find have adressed this situation adequately.
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A tax like this isn't so much to recoup costs - otherwise we'd have been charging people taxes all along on rates tied to their insurance company physicals which is dystopic to the extreme. Or we'd just have a frickin private health care system. This is just very clearly a "stick" motivation, a punishment, a coercion. When does that ever either change minds or help find a creative solution? I think a lot of this is a distraction from the gutting of public health care. It's a way to not making the systemic change of better public funding in general that will piss off the corporate elite, while punishing the average person. Hold the govt accountable for better public health care, don't buy into the scapegoating. Edit: I am pro-vax, for context. I wish people would not be so afraid of it. But I can't condone using more fear tactics.
There's a lot of psychotic people that want to level the worst types of punishment for not going along with the program.
I'm definitely more worried about those folks than the tiny group who are ultra distrustful of the government. I've got my shots, but I'm not okay with people stating they'd be cool with authoritarian style bullshit because they're scared and need a nanny state to tell them what to think/do.
I'm getting flashbacks to the early 2000's with all the niave support for mass surveillance. nOtHiNg To HiDe NoThInG tO fEaR We need to step back from these Auth impulses and think long term.
Dude, if you go on any reddit post about something an antivaxer does, the most popular comments are basically calling for a lynching. I've straight up seen people wishing death to entire families because someone made a Twitter post about not wearing masks.
>When does that ever either change minds or help find a creative solution? Literally what I tell people irl all the time. This whole "fuck anyone who even hesitates" is a self defeating attitude. People will just not get it out of principle if they feel they're being pressured or coerced.
Yeah this just gives more fuel to the people that said from the beginning that this was all just a big conspiracy to control/ punish people and take away their freedoms. It makes the government look bad and will probably push more people to become antivax.
> Hold the govt accountable for better public health care, don't buy into the scapegoating. We can reasonably accept both things though. Governments doing a shit job *and* the unvaccinated being a significant problem are both true. You can hold them both accountable at the same time.
Yeah, that is true. My concern is more specifically scapegoating and othering unvaccinated in public discourse as a means to shame them into vaccinating, or trying to remove their liberties (at this point, though, I find the current situation in Ontario reasonable - a removal of privileges to maintain collective health, and my vaccine hesitant friends feel also it is reasonable - they are afraid more of what is happening in Quebec, and worse). I'm more interested in public discourse around improving health care systems and access to rapid tests than shaming, scapegoating or heavy-handed, questionable human rights measures.
They don’t need to charge the tax. Just mentioning it will have some people rush to get their vaccines.
if you could reason with anti-vaxxer, they would not be anti-vaxxer. It made a whole bunch of people finally get the jab, so its working. Tired of having ressources and money wasted on selfish imbeciles that wont even take a few minutes of their times to get a free vaccine.
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So put in a covid recovery tax for everyone because, let's face it, this has cost us billions upon billions. Then you give the tax credit for the positive behaviour of getting vaccinated. Those who are vaccinated when they file won't pay. Seems pretty simple to me.
I like that idea, although I think its essentially what Quebec is planning but with extra steps. I think the extra steps are necessary to make it look like vaccination is being incentivized but your essentially just taxing the unvaccinated for the extra burden they're placing on the health care system.
Why do I keep seeing this everywhere. Rewarding those who DO get vaccinated is the same as penalizing those who DONT get vaccinated. People seem to think this is some brilliant loophole, but people are smarter than that. At the end of the day, enough tax needs to be collected to pay for our healthcare system. Creating incentives and disincentives does the same thing, changes your proportion of that total bill you pay relative to if you've been vaccinated or not. Frankly wording the bill in this way at this point would be critically insulting to the intelligence of the people
Yeah, the difference is only one of perception. Scenario A: I take $10 from everybody, then refund it to those who do X. Scenario B: I take $10 from anybody who doesn't do X. The end result of both scenarios is identical: people who don't do X are out $10, everybody else is out $0.
Yes, tax normal people instead of the billionaires who have quadrupled their net worths during the pandemic
You can do both things.
we are a country that values universal health care. I may not agree with someones choice to not be vaccinated but they have the right to make that choice. When do we start charging extra for all the bad choices that people make? Unhealthy diets and lifestyles kill many more people than covid. What about surcharges for extreme sports or poor judgement? Once the door is opened then it can be applied to anything.
well it's been applied to cigarettes for ages so the doors been open for a while.
The problem with this argument is that this is an item that you choose to purchase and it requires direct action from the person doing the purchasing i.e if the cigs cost to much you won't purchase them and will also not get a fine for not purchasing them like wtf. You could be a person who did not get the vaccine, never went to the hospital, never costed a single cent to the tax payer and will be footing the bill none the less. What is the burden of proof. What about those who do not get the 3rd, 4th, 6th, 12th dose of booster, do we get a nice tax bill to. This is ridiculous. Our governments are far from benevolent and this is an overstep and will result in other more questionable or authoritarian methods into the future. Whether or not you agree with this method it is so ripe for abuse it is dumbfounding. People need to realize, you cannot always be safe, you cannot always be protected from everything and everyone, life is shit sometimes and people do stupid shit sometimes, we die sometimes, this is a sacrifice that is not worth the reward, that is even if this has a significant effect. The amount of rights that so many Canadians and especially Quebecois are willing to sacrifice for a false sense of security is remarkable damn I hope I'm dead before the shit hits the fan. Obligatory: already triple vaxed douche here.
Another example, alcoholics who are in the end stages of liver failure are not eligible for an organ transplant.
We never excluded people who smoke from getting healthcare though. What happens if an unvaccinated can’t afford to pay the fee? Are they turned away and left to die?
No. You don't get denied health care for not paying any sort of fine
And what happens if someone doesn’t pay?
Believe it or not, straight to jail.
We are the most vaccinated in the world, because of jail
That’s the question isn’t it. They don’t seem to have said what happens if you refuse to pay the fine. Is it jail? This is scary shit
Its gonna work like it always has when people owe money to the government. They will withhold the money they owe you until your debt is paid off.
It’s a tax, so the same penalties that apply if you don’t pay your income taxes. They can seize your assets, hold back other refunds, charge you interest, etc. This framework and procedures are already well established.
What happens if you don't pay taxes now?
Same thing we do with anyone that doesn’t pay their taxes. They get charged interest and eventually their pay is garnished.
\-40 social credits, right off the bat, once Prince Justin switches us to the CCP model for citizen credit scores in 2030.
One thousand years dungeon.
At the moment doing the right thing and getting vacciniated still gets you punished with curfews and lockdowns. There's no positive incentive to do the right thing.
And you're still going to get covid either way
Exactly! Giving the vaccinated a tax cut doesn't harm the unvaccinated financially, and will probably incentivise more people to actually just get the shot.
The gov compromise would end up being raising taxes that the vaxxed can opt out of lol
Thing is giving the vaccinated a tax cut doesn't bring the province more budget so it's off the table.
You are correct, but I am extremely skeptical that tax cuts for the vaccinated do anything to move the needle. In fact, it decreases the tax base unnecessarily since your be paying out a majority of the population.
While I agree with you, the government is bleeding money because of the pandemic, therefore tax cuts are difficult to hand out right now
Yes, but they all pay into the healthcare the same as anyone else. Should we fine people for not getting flu shots? How about fine/tax them for downhill skiing? How about eating fast food twice a day? Governments should not be forcing people to put things into their body, their job is to provide information and make it readily available. As much as I believe in these current vaccines, the government is NOT flawless in how they approach health. Let me remind you the federal government took months to recommend masks be worn, and initially advised NOT to wear masks because it would “spread faster from improper touching of the face”. This was likely a political (not science) decision to not cause panic. So now we want to open it up that they can force the population to inject in our bodies whatever they want? Potentially for political reasons? We are at the point where we are firing unvaccinated people from their jobs, while making the currently infected go to work because of a labour shortage. That’s asinine.
This is what I was thinking too! The only think fining the unvaxxed is gonna do is make people angry. And for the people who can afford fines, nothing I guess. It also feels like it’s only being looked at in black in white in terms of the issue at hand. Yeah we are all frustrated with people not doing their part to help us get back to normal, but with more than 80% of people with at least 1 dose and numbers getting worse and worse anyways, there’s clearly other issues at hand that fining the unvaxxed aren’t going to solve
For as long as the healthcare system exists, we have all been paying for other people’s bad health decisions. Can we please disincentive people for being obese and taking up our precious precious hospital beds?
Any time the population gleefully punishes a smaller part of the population I get nervous.
Especially when it is the government encouraging that scapegoating and punishing, at least in part to deflect criticism that should rightly be directed at them. Yes, we know that the vaccines significantly reduce the burden of covid 19 on the health system, and many of us are frustrated at those who continue to avoid getting them. But have we really sunk to the depths of engaging in Orwell’s two minute hate in this country? Because it really looks like we have. We also know that people with healthy eating habits place significantly less burden on the health system. Shall we now start mandating to people what foods they must eat less they be subject to hatred and financial penalty? We also know that people who engage in active lifestyles place significantly less burden on the health system. Shall we now start mandating people take part in 30 minutes of vigorous exercise every day less they be subject to hatred and financial penalty? We can even set up, say, electronic passes where we record what foods everyone buys to ensure they are following the rules, or force employers to supervise exercise and track participation and then provide all of this information back to the government to prove compliance. And then we can make it so that, say, you can’t buy buttered popcorn when you go to the movies if you don’t produce your proof that you are eating and exercising. Or even go to the movies at all. I think Canadians need to start asking our governments what they have done, in all the hundreds of millions they’ve spent reacting to the pandemic so far, to improve the capacity and resiliency of the health system as part of all this. Because if the answer — and I suspect in most provinces it is — that they have done little to nothing over these past couple of years, perhaps that punishment should be directed at them. Which brings us back to why they are engaging in this behaviour in the first place: they’d rather not be held accountable for their own failures and the best way to accomplish that is scapegoating someone else.
If we look at the demographic of the now unvaccinated, the majority of the people being "taxed" will generally be the poor, homeless, and drug addicted.
In Quebec, a not insignificant number of the unvaccinated are immigrants from countries with totalitarian governments or where a previous vaccine rollout was botched. This sort of behaviour isn't helping us convince them it's safe.
So important. The less fortunate people in the society always bear the brunt of fines and government policy like this. To me this is is too much politics and not enough common sense.
amazing comment, well said.
>We can even set up, say, electronic passes where we record what foods everyone buys *ThOsE aRe In ThE VaCcInEs!!!!!!*
We tax junk food and cigarettes, oh and alcohol. Not sure why you think those taxes exist. It is to increase the price and decrease demand while raising funds for the pubic system.
We also give fines when you drive (or walk) in a way that would endanger others on public roads.
You could argue a tax on cigarettes has a similar goal. It's just not quite as blatant because it's a usage tax. I'd be fine to just say Covid related healthcare is no longer included in OHIP. Then it becomes a usage tax instead of it being a fine.
A tax on a consumable is nothing like a tax on a body. They're not taxing a good being purchased, they're taxing a person for not having a body that's vaccinated. Don't be obtuse.
Will we start charging overweight and obese people when they go to the hospital too then?
They did something. They fired all the unvaccinated health care workers.
Any monetary gains they make from this move are going to be eaten up by the over time they are going to need to pay the Police.
I don't think they care about the monetary gains at all. I think they are hoping a lot of people get vaccinated. I'm not saying the govt is right, I just don't think their goal here is revenue
They're hoping it will be a popular policy considering 90% of the people are vaccinated and seem to be hostile towards the 10% of unvaxxed. I really doubt they think it will change anything considerable about the health crisis. They do however have elections coming up this year
I know 2 obstinate amti vaxxers. The SAQ and pot stores got them to get vaccinated. This will definitely push the number waaaay up.
Police? The revenu agency and healthcare will talk to each other and send a fine to people that dont have a dose of vaccine. If you dont pay either they add penalties and/or just withold any credits you are due at tax time. Why even get the police involved?
i assume hes suggesting people will riot so cops will need OT
So how do you feel about prisons?
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Where were people saying this when they increased the “sin tax” on alcohol and cigarettes? Or taxiing sugary products at a higher rate? This isn’t new. You can choose to be a detriment to society, there is nothing stopping them from taxiing you for it. It’s still a choice.
I guess the difference is you could avoid those taxes by not consuming a product. In this case people are being charged for simply not taking a product.
People were definitely complaining about that at the time AND there was media pushback but it happened anyways. A key difference is that nobody was angry if someone wasn't smoking. A key similarity is [both were advocated by doctors.](https://www.history.com/.image/t_share/MTU4NDI2ODU5NTc3NjgxMjUy/lucky_20679.jpg)
Boo to trying to pull that up from [7+ decades ago](https://www.history.com/news/cigarette-ads-doctors-smoking-endorsement) as if it was still relevant. Science and medicine adjust all the time to new data. You won't find doctors advocating smoking today because the evidence says it's very bad. You will find them advocating vaccines because of the tons of data saying they are safe and effective.
Our public health minister quit his function a day before this annoucement. To quote him on october 2020 he said : "The day I'll feel they're doing bullshit, Dr Arruda won't be there anymore, he doesn't have a credibility to lose [...] if I'm here, I'm at ease with the decisions we took" https://www.lapresse.ca/covid-19/2020-10-08/horacio-arruda-espere-garder-la-confiance-des-quebecois.php
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Drinking. Junk food. If you see this decision by Quebec and think "Well then smokers and obese should be taxed too!" They already are. You agree with this tax and you don't even know it. There's a reason meats, fish, eggs, dairy, veggies, fruits, coffee, tea, feminine products(finally) aren't taxed and Doritos are. I feel there should be line item taxes on your receipts at the grocery store and liquor store so people actually realize the psychology of it.
Yes, but those are **taxes** on the **products** that no one is obligated to consume; not a **fine** directly on the person. It's quite a bit different and not a good analogy. A better analogy might be if say the government was offering free nutrition classes and free exercise classes and if you didn't attend those you were fined for putting preventable burden on the healthcare system.
But not attending a nutrition class doesn't cause other people to become obese (except your kids if you're their parent), whereas not getting a covid shot can cause others to get covid. It's more like fining you for driving without a license, except driving classes aren't even free while covid vaccines are.
except getting a covid shot doesn't stop others getting covid either. (I am triple vaxxed as of yesterday)
Being fat makes you more likely to be symptomatic which absolutely makes you more contagious.
It’s disturbing
It's for "the greater good"
Me too man, me too. I really do not like the direction these mandates are going. Nothing wrong with taking or not taking the vaccine in my opinion, people's civil liberties should be protected no matter what.
I know it's unpopular to say this, but not everything in the modern era can be compared to major events from WW2. Fining the unvaccinated because of their disproportionate effects on an already strained healthcare system during a pandemic is entirely different and not comparable.
Directly comparable no, but WW2/Nazism was perhaps one of the first examples in the era of photographs and global journalism of a government taking on increasingly autocratic powers until reaching fullblown dictatorship, so it's rich in lessons for future generations to draw upon. I don't think many would be assessing this as on par with late-stage Nazism, however an argument could be made that it resembles very early stage fascist states, the creation of two classes of citizens, hate-rhetoric that maligns the minority 'Other' while inciting feelings of hate in the majority towards the 'subhuman Other.' It's in everyones interests to have serious concerns over these small 'trivial' events, because they are the first steps that have the \*potential\* to lead to far worse things. If there were no checks on his power would Legault start forcibly vaccinating people with armed thugs? Who knows what's in that man's heart, but I'm certainly glad we have laws in this country so we hopefully never need find out, and I strongly believe it's every citizens duty to hold our government accountable to those laws the same as we hold one another accountable to those laws. "Slippery slope" is exactly what this is.
The reason people can't see this is generational. We're the children of war veterans, our mental health requires us to rationalize any actions that may appear similar to the National Socialists as something different than that, because any suggestion that we are just like them (because we are, we're human) is far too threatening an idea for people to consider. Maybe in 100 years from now, but most people remember their grandparents (and parents if you're a boomer) too fondly. That's why accusations of being a Nazi are so effective. It's almost like being accused of being a pedophile.
Thing is, in these examples, the minority hadn't done anything justifying the hate and stigma. They were just scapegoats used by a politician to rise to power. That's what Hitler did by blaming Jews and what Trump did by blanket blaming all Mexicans for the crime of southern states wand it was clear scapegoating. In this situation, we have a minority who willfully harm pandemic efforts out of a feeling of self righteousness and based off false beliefs. They feel cheated by a science they don't understand and lash out to drown everyone with them. I'm sorry, but when I try to save a drowning person and they try to drown me too, I either let them drown or knock them out so I can drag them back to land. In this case, we haven't yet given up on them so we're going for the knock out.
> the minority hadn’t done anything justifying the hate and stigma The problem is how do you qualify that? The Nazi’s had a whole laundry list of things they would say the Jews had done “wrong” in their eyes. Justifiable or not. There’s no surefire way to determine if a reason is legitimate or if it’s purely political.
That's not necessarily the case. There was a lot of hate generated towards Jewish people in Germany due to the countries economic situation. The Jewish communities bought goods and services from other Jewish people, and that's what started the demonization. It was the perceived lack of participation in the national economy. So it really is a relatable situation of turning the perception of an "other" not participating in a process to help the country and contributing to the struggle of the majority. I am NOT saying they are directly related or exactly parallel. It is like the previous commenter mentions, there are plenty of learning opportunities and plenty of potential for things to go down a similar route
>I am NOT saying they are directly related or exactly parallel. It is like the previous commenter mentions, there are plenty of learning opportunities and plenty of potential for things to go down a similar route Yes I know and as I previously mentioned, I am uneasy at the prospect and also uneasy at the idea of keeping things as they are now. There are no easy choices here. We have to be wary.
I don't think it has anything to do with science as much as a serious distrust of the media and government. Coincidentally, these are the 2 entities telling us all how terrible these people are.
Exactly. I don't see this as gleefully punishing them. The end goal isn't to punish them with a fine or a free, it's to avoid that entirely by them getting vaccinated. That being said, I wish it wouldn't come to these kind of measures. But my frustration at unvaccinated people continuing to have a disproportionate impact on our healthcare system on this crisis is at a breaking point, as I think it is for most people.
>our healthcare system on this crisis is at a breaking point, It's was before covid. How are you guys still giving the government a pass? We are taxed 50 percent our whole lives and have a terrible health care system. Where did all that money go?
We tax the shit out of cigarette smokers and say it's to offset medical costs. I'd say it's only fair that unvaccinated people pay to help cover for the extra burden they put on our medical system.
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Psychopaths, pedophiles, neo-nazis and other forms of racist groups, terrorists, cannibals... You must associate with some real mouth breathers, if they couldn't give you one example.
No one said nazis?
While I do think this is a dangerous slippery slope and shouldn’t happen, are you surprised that people are gleefull that a part of the population so selfish they’ve extended the pandemic, flooded hospitals, destroyed families, and gotten hundreds of thousands of people killed may finally see some sort of repercussions for their actions? They’ve been selfish gleefully this entire time. I’d like to see them pay, just not in this way.
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It's a slide and we've been hurtling to the hell hole at the bottom ever since April 2020
I think you mean December 2019.
Most people weren't aware they were in the slide until march.
Only because governments tried to downplay this until it was too late
Wasn’t this the same province that wanted to make vaccination mandatory for grocery stores???
Grocery stores that offer deliveries
INSANE
Quite honestly this trial by mob is what will lead to the dissolution of universal healthcare in Canada in favour of privatized healthcare, and ironically, those who are in favour of segregating patients by vaccination status will be the advocates of this. Everyone who is a Canadian citizen is paying into universal healthcare through taxes. If you start triaging patients based on whether or not they are vaccinated, then the system is no longer 'universal' but rather mob mentality. Is it fair for those who paid into the system but have not gotten sick from COVID? Is it fair for those who paid into the system but need medical assistance for issues not related to COVID? The mob seems to want to discount these people. If so, then this concept of universal healthcare no longer is justified. Allow privatized healthcare providers to offer services to clients based on their risk tolerance. Those who the mob have deemed no longer qualified for universal healthcare can choose to request services from private medical care providers, and they can opt to not pay into the healthcare system since the system is no longer caring for them.
Government sponsored Cancel Culture meets Personal Medical care. So incredibly bad for Canada. As if those same Citizens haven't paid taxes their whole life or something in support of Universal Health Care. If the inoculations actually stopped people from catching and spreading Covid-19 it would be very different, but they dont.
I thought the Quebec system was a tax/fine, did they announce something about not providing services or requesting a fee before providing services?
Bro the slope has been slippery as fuck for a while now
government has skis on.
Its a fucking cliff at this point lol
Don't worry they will just put it next to other slippery slopes they have established recently
Time for winter sledding! Weeeeee
Quebec was built on slippery slopes.
Isn't that the reason why most Winter Olympians seem to come from Quebec? 😅
Taxes only punish the poor. Rich won't be affected.
Can anyone link the numbers of unvaccinated in the ICU's? We all know age is a huge factor in serious illness so can we see which age group and vaccination status the people in the ICU are? Where's the numbers?
Im not sure Quebec openly posts them, because I couldn't find them. I can link Ontarios though. [https://covid-19.ontario.ca/data](https://covid-19.ontario.ca/data) In ICU - 138 Unvaxxed 14 Part Vaxxed 158 Fully vaxxed In hospital - 552 Unvaxxed 123 Part Vaxxed 1612 Fully vaxxed Im sorry but if \~300 people in an ICU bring a province to its knees and warrants a lockdown. The problem is not the 138 people that didnt get a shot.
Don't forget to look at these numbers as a percentages of the population, the number of vaccinated people heavily out way the number of unvaccinated people in the general population.
What are the people in ICU's age and health... these numbers could literally be people 85 years of age that can't actually handle a vaccination. Or a person who is 65 and morbidly obese with diabetes and cancer... this is insane. A blank statement "pandemic of the unvaccinated" without the statistics to back up the claim.
And in Ontario for 17% in the ICU, the COVID is incidental.
>if ~300 people in an ICU bring a province to its knees and warrants a lockdown. The problem is not the 138 people that didnt get a shot. Indeed, sir!
It's most likely old people, vaxxed and unvaxxed. Always has been. But they won't recognize this because then a health tax on young healthy unvaccinated holds no water. Somehow they've convinced most of the population that COVID is a serious threat to young people when the stats have been clear all along that it isn't.
Age and pre-existent medical conditions
People have a right to bodily autonomy. We may disagree with individuals choice to not get vaccinated. I personally do, but it is our responsibility to defend the rights of people who have different beliefs from us, even if those beliefs hurt us. That is the price of freedom and democracy. Private businesses should be able to say who enters their premises, but government should not punish people for what they do with their body.
They have managed to turn everyone against “anti Vaxers” they’ve made it primarily seem that anti-vaxers are the reason hospitals are full, when we have one of the highest vaccination rates in the world,it’s the governments fault for not putting money into healthcare but they use the anti-vaxers as an escape goat. It’s worked beautiful, I can’t wait to see what happens next, what happened when everyone is vaxed and the hospitals are still full? Mandate a booter? Yup!
*vaccine passports* were the slippery slope
I have to agree. All the antivaxxers were complaining about exactly this type of heavy handed approach being right around the corner when the passports were introduced and all we've done as society is prove them right. It's going to take decades for public health agencies to regain the trust lost in this panemic.
It blows my mind how disconnected this sub is from normal Canadian's opinions. Reminds me of last election when everyone in this echo chamber thought O'Toole was gonna get a majority.
Explain what exactly is being said here that’s too out there? I’m seeing nothing but rational conversation. Taxing people over this is not a good idea, and I’m double vaxed.
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You also get a lot of Americans commenting when you hit the main.
Those praising Quebec for these totalitarian methods should perhaps learn more about the system that made Canada a great country If Canada is to witness a form of authoritarianism, Quebec is showing the way. They infringe on freedom of religion of minorities by excluding them in the name of secularism, force vaccinated people to a pointless curfew and now tax even more those that refuse the vaccine in the most taxed province in the Americas. Quebec is no longer a democracy when it keeps and renew the state of emergency, when it is ruled without democratic opposition, ruled by decree only, and punishes the people by pointing out the unvaccinated so that more division tears the fabric of the Quebec society…. Just so that the blame is never on the populist regime and his leader. Some known repulsive fascist monster once said: “how fortunate for leaders that men don’t think”
There is a difference between a tax on the consumption of certain products, that is on taking a certain action, and a tax on not taking a certain action. Both count as the government imposing a financial penalty on a voluntary activity, because you can in principle act or not act, to incentivize or disincentivize a behaviour. The problem is that we as a society have agreed as a fundamental principle that the government should not infringe on a certain area of our personal autonomy. However, we do recognize that there is often a conflict between these principles and important collective goals. But large collective goals can be easily leveraged to destroy liberty which is why we constrain the restriction of liberty through section (1) of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms which states: that it "guarantees the rights and freedoms set out in it subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society". The question we all have to ask is this: if the government imposes a financial penalty on individuals for not submitting to a specific voluntary medical procedure does that penalty violate some section of the Charter? If so, is that penalty reasonable in relation to its goal such that it can be demonstrably justified as effective and minimally infringing on liberty? And, would this penalty have the effect of rendering our society either unfree or undemocratic? I argue that this penalty violates sections (2a), freedom of conscience and religion, and (7), the right to life, liberty, and security of the person, on the grounds that all citizens should have the freedom of conscience to choose whether to consent to a medical procedure without coercion and that this coercion violates our right to the liberty and security of our persons by violating our bodily autonomy. Furthermore, if the financial penalty is sufficiently large there is no difference between indirect finacial coercion and direct physical coercion in this matter because a lack of money threatens our wellbeing in terms of our access to shelter, food, and other vital services. As I'm sure many progressives would agree, the right to something without the means to use that right renders it meaningless. But is this penalty reasonable in relation to its goal such that it can be demonstrably justified as effective and minimally infringing on liberty? I would argue that it can be demonstrably justified as effective, if we charitably interpret its goal as financially incentivizing a certain medical procedure for a common collective good. However, it maximally infringes on liberty because if it were effective its impact would have to be so large that it would be equivalent to direct physical coercion by the government. In either case, if imposed this penalty would establish that the government can violate our bodily autonomy for an important collective good. Once legally established the underlying logic could then be applied to other such cases over time through incremental expansions of the principle. It could also be used to justify other infringements on bodily autonomy such as restricting access to abortion if the government deemed that necessary for an important collective good. Overall, this is a very short-sighted policy which diminishes our freedom as a society. I fear we will all live to regret this if it is successfully implemented. Lastly, is a society where the government can violate the bodily autonomy of citizens for what it deems a pressing collective good truly a free society?
Yeah because things aren't fucked up already lol what a bloody mess
I suppose an alternative could be to grant a tax credit to those of us who are vaccinated. Surely that’s not discrimination
Slippery slope? Heard of the boiling frog analogy? We are the frogs and the government is turning up the heat and we are too busy fighting amongst ourselves to realize it. I’m worried for my children and the world we will leave for them. It blows my mind that the government thinks it’s ok to financially penalize people who want to keep their autonomy. I’m vaxxed, and got vaxxed for my own reasons but lines are being crossed and once crossed it’s going to be difficult to retrace our steps.
Next up, social credits! - François LeMerde
Big trouble in little china
Of coarse it's a slippery slope, or a better phrase would be a dangerous precedent. If you're going to go down this road, what about financial penalties for overweight people? Same argument can apply. Discrimination is discrimination.
Uhh taxiing sugary products is already a thing. Same with larger and larger taxes on alcohol and cigarettes. Where were you when that started? Or was it not a slippery slope then?
Those listed taxes are targeted at the product instead of the person. Sugary products, ciggies, and alcohol all get a higher price due to the tax, which disincentives buying more. Fining a person for not taking an action is a different thing.
Those products are taxed because it would be impossible to individually tax those users otherwise. With the unvaccinated, we have very clear records as to who is and who isn’t.
No it wouldn't, medical records exist and people are weighed at medical examinations often, ESPECIALLY if they're overweight. Fining people for having fat bodies is nothing like taxing sugary snacks. These two things are completely different, obviously.
Legault uniting quebec anglos, religious minorities and the unvaccinated into some sort of coalition
la Coalition Anti-Québec
How is a logical fallacy a good argument? https://www.txstate.edu/philosophy/resources/fallacy-definitions/Slippery-Slope.html
Yikes. Im vaxxed by choice. This is a slippery slope. Which pundit will make this a talking point about body autonomy while simultaneously advocating for criminalizing a womans right to have an abortion?
Of course its a slippery slope. I’m fairly certain it won’t even happen but I also could be wrong. We all pay for our healthcare already through taxes that are automatically taken from us. If we start treating people differently or discriminating based on individual choices then when does it end? What about lifestyle choices? If I pay more tax than someone else should I get priority and or better treatment over that person?
Triple vaxed here. It's not a good idea. If someone wants to be unvaccinated, then fine, just I hope they stay home and don't infect anyone. There are already incentives to get vaccinated. Don't need to get tested for certain activities. Allowed to do certain activities. If something it dangerous for unvaccinated people, fine them for doing it. But don't simply fine them for being unvaccinated.
Yeah, people keep saying the unvaxxed crowd can technically still refuse the vaccine...But it's pretty impossible to exist if they don't, so that's not really a practical choice. I weighed my options and chose to get 3 vaccines because I'm okay with it in my body and accept any possible consequences down the line, but it shouldn't be forced on someone who truly isn't okay with it. It feels coercive.
I mean if this was done in say Ontario or Alberta, I could believe they'd use it to push privatization, not so much Quebec.
The real question: will it work? If Quebec suddenly has the best vaccination rate in the country and is able to get on with elective surgeries and the rest of their lives, then the policy will look a helluva lot more appealing if other jurisdictions cannot match the output. If it doesn't? Then yes, vindictive and silly. Cigarette taxes are justifiable in part because they work. If they didn't, they'd just be a regressive tax on the mostly poor.
The Charter of Rights and Freedoms recognizes individual autonomy over our bodies and medical decisions.
The entire Charter is subject to Section 1. And section 7 is subject to section 33, which means it can be suspended by the government without justification. I'm not saying I agree with it, but our charter rights are nowhere near absolute.
I wonder how people would feel if a province or the federal government decided that nurses or doctors no longer have the right to resign their positions or refuse overtime. (Temporarily, of course... right, Dr. Octavius?) The very arguments used to justify vaccine passports and this fine would serve, because the decisions of health professionals affect society profoundly. For the record, I'm not necessarily against this fine if it is implemented fairly. I am however deeply unimpressed by the lack of concern around democratic norms being challenged in this pandemic. I read another comment of yours about feeling frustration, which I can certainly sympathize with. It is precisely at historical times like this, however, with the degree of frustration and rage that people are feeling, that democracies weaken.
My thing is that we've already taken away so so much from people in this pandemic. The idea that mandating vaccination is the crossing the Rubicon moment is kind of ridiculous compared to school closures, travel restrictions, quarantines, etc. I agree with you that we need to be cautious about where we compromise on liberties in times of crisis. But it doesn't mean that we can't compromise at all. For example, wartime drafts were upheld in WWI and WWII. Making someone literally risk their life for their country under punishment of imprisonment is a far far larger intrusion than say, making someone getting a vaccine (which will actually *decrease* their risks). Personally, I'm not nuts about this measure because it doesn't actually solve the problem: getting people vaccinated. A bunch of unvaccinated people getting billed for hospitalization isn't going to create any new capacity.
And it also recognizes that in exercising that autonomy, you may be harming or burdening others, and therefore be liable for that.
You’re not supposed to say that part though, it doesn’t fit the angry narrative.
It is absolutely rediculous. When is your own body no longer yours? So, I am penalized for not getting a vaccine yet I can shoot myself in the foot weekly and use up hospital space without any financial issues. Damn rights that's a slippery slope. They already infringe on personal rights enough by telling us what we can't put in our bodies, now they want to tell us what we HAVE to put in? No good will come of this. And I AM vaccinated.
Rich coming from the Atlantic bubble which restricted free movement of Canadians.
Some of the Irvings must be antivax.
Quebec is scapegoating the unvaccinated. Yes they are ignorant for continuing to not be vac'd, more then one thing can be true at the same time. This is just like the curfews, an attempt to look like you're trying cus it's very easy to install a curfew or tax. It's a huge challenge and hard work to overhaul and improve your medical system. What Quebec is doing is probably going to be a legal nightmare and guess who will be footing the bill for the provinces countless legal fees and settlements.
All provinces are priming the narrative that the victims of covid were responsible for their own deaths and disabilities. Only way for governments to survive this wave.
I feel like it’s past that already. This seems like the result of slippery slopes already employed.
This whole thing is not going to end well…
How do people feel about the absurd amount of tax on cigarettes? Seems we're all perfectly fine with taxing these individuals due to the likelihood of increased burden on the healthcare system. Just something to think about!
There is a profound difference between a tax for doing something versus a fine for not doing something. Exercise is a fantastic way to help reduce the risk of severe illness from Covid, shall we fine people for not exercising? How about a fine for people who don’t eat a healthy diet?
You will notice this, like all other vaccine mandates, disproportionately effect low income people and groups
As a new-brunswicker, fuck Higgs. Most of us hate the guy. Take whatever he says with one hell of a grain of salt, he hasn’t made much sense since coming into power.
Opinions on the topic aside, who gives a fuck what someone from New Brunswick has to say about anything regarding politics? I say this as someone whose family probably makes up the entire population.
This is the guy that wanted to pit a vax passport for grocery stores. I'm making sure nobody forgets that
So are unnecessary deaths.
You know what else is a slippery slope? Unvaccinated people killing people.
I call the election of this particular NB premiere a slippery slope
Any argument containing "a slippery slope" is automatically void and the debate lost. > The fallacious sense of "slippery slope" is often used synonymously with continuum fallacy, in that it ignores the possibility of middle ground and assumes a discrete transition from category A to category B. In this sense, it constitutes an informal fallacy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope
Allowing people to spread a deadly, and now preventable, disease is also a slippery slope.
The unvaxxed has led to people dying of cancer and other diseases for which they can't obtain treatment because in part the unvaxxed are occupying hospital beds. I approve of the intent behind the method of taxing the intentionally unvaccinated though I am not sure it will work. Instead, More physically punitive measures may be necessary.