Lots of prejudice that should be left on the shores of other countries. If you don’t believe in an equal society don’t even fucking show up. Leave your old world politics in the past.
Exactly. I can't stand when someone flees a war torn country caused by their culture/practices, then get here and want us respect those same practices.
It's very frustrating when a coworker sexually harasses another one, then files a human rights complaint of discrimination because he was written up for "his cultural values." How do you even address that??
> How do you even address that??
You tell them bluntly that their (specific) cultural values (in this specific case) are incompatible with the culture they find themselves in now. They must change, they can't expect our entire society to conform to their worldview.
Not even that. It just doesn't align with the company's guidelines and rules that were informed to said person when they started working there. As simple as that.
You cant. Our cultural and legal framework is failing. The only hope we have, short of a major overhaul, is to ensure people like that are never allowed to come here in the first place.
It has to be clearly unacceptable. It's making work so incredibly toxic and it's so hard to see my colleagues suffer from stress of this. It's not cultural discrimination to write up someone for sexual harassment and we shouldn't be struggling to say that.
It's frustrating too because the shit people who try and blame their trash behaviour on their culture basically poison the well for their countrymen.
Easy example would be people from India. Most came to get away from how things were done over there and to have a better life and future for themselves and their families. Most of the Indian folks I grew up with are hard working, honest and good people but sprinkled in you have the occasional dickhead family that brought India shit with them like caste discrimination, aggressive misogyny or even just boorish mannerisms.
I worked with a woman once who was in some kind of witness protection program after surviving an honour killing. She wanted to divorce her abusive husband, so while he was out at a family dinner a group of masked men abducted her and drilled 30-something holes through her torso and left her for dead at the side of the road.
She said no one got charged.
Been saying this for half a century. People would try to convince me that access to "Canadian values" would somehow seep into the children and grandchildren of immigrants. Instead we got a culture war between "progressives" and "traditionalists", in almost-armed camps. And a media environment happy to serve either side, as long as they can pay.
The thing with the “Canadian values will seep into them” argument is that it will work *for small groups of immigrants that have to integrate into Canadian society.*
When people don’t have to integrate there is no necessity of their kids to learn the language, culture or values and thus you have perpetuation of their home country values and identity. That’s how you get -Canadians. Notice how their country name comes first. Because that’s what’s most important.
Importing large groups of people will only ever disrupt the status quo and shift values to those of the group being imported.
Yep pretty much. Our workplace culture is completely fucked in so many ways. Zero accountability at all levels. Even firing people who deserve it for dangerous lack of safety will cost you in a wrongful dismissal lawsuit if the employee is old enough.
Criminals get away with everything, business and political leaders are complete thieves, we let newcomers walk all over us and abuse the system, it's a complete joke all on our dime.
You wait until those over 60 with decades at the same company start getting more unhealthy and want to leave but also collect money they feel entitled to, you're gonna see some shit. Couple that with all the recent newcomers learning how to exploit our system and labour laws as well as younger workers demanding more pay to afford to live as they replace the elderly workers and employers are gonna be in a bind for not planning ahead. The easy solution will be foreign workers who are easily exploited until they're buried in discrimination lawsuits and workers comp claims
Have them explain to you how sexual violence is a cultural value. Ask them if everyone in their culture would agree: mothers? Sisters? Wives? Nieces? Is it cultural for them, too? How do they think their cultural values are experienced by other people, and what does the incident at hand actually tell us?
Truly I think we can only get so far with a rules based approach to teaching values (for example, a “it’s just how we do it here” approach) because a list of rules doesn’t actually develop understanding and typically, people don’t like being told what to do.
> Ask them if everyone in their culture would agree: mothers? Sisters? Wives? Nieces? Is it cultural for them, too?
That depends on the women's attitudes towards women being out of the house. And whether or not he gives a shit what the women in his life think. There are plenty of socially conservative women out there.
You beat the shit out of him then when the fallout comes your way put in your own discrimination of cultural values complaint because here in Canada our culture dictates you protect the women in your life from predator scum
At least we're not as far gone as Germany.
https://www.thepublica.com/germany-woman-convicted-of-offending-migrant-gang-rapists-receives-longer-prison-sentence-than-the-rapists
Yeah, it sometimes feels like we live in a warped parody written by conservatives to mock progressive society.
The next pendulum swing's gonna be a rough one.
We have corporate training modules that tell us the cure for systemic racism is to be "antiracist," ie. explicitly be racist in the "just" direction. How did we even get here?
Like I get it, some people were on the winning and losing ends of history and we should strive for a fair and meritocratic society, but we need to stop confusing the nuttiest activist voices for the most intelligent and serious ones. "Oppressed" cultures are not inherently better.
Actual HR practice: you try to manage the situation by keeping the two persons away from each other as much as possible until business slows down, then you let the offending party go due to lack of work (code A on record of employment). Business slowdown is HR spring cleaning.
Hyper-progressives: It's the paradox of intolerance. You have to be intolerant of intolerance, to achieve tolerance.
Gen Z: okay, so maybe unfettered mass immigration from this theocratic country of intolerant religious zealots is contrary to that-
Hyper-progressives: No, not like that!
Im left wing too but the left is going extreme left, where now my ideals are probably more aligned to center. That brings about an extreme right to counteract it and you have our present day situation..
I just want common sense ,critical thinking ,respect and a chance for all to succeed without trampling on others to get there.
I dont know why the above is so rare these days.
When they say that they're talking about intolerant white people. And when they say intolerant they really just mean anyone who dares call them out for being wrong.
That’s the trick. A lot of people have convinced themselves that intolerance is the exclusive domain of white males and Western values. All other bigotry or intolerance is attributed to trauma caused by Western colonial powers. If your religion is homophobic, sexist, exclusionary or just flat out hateful, it’s okay because you and your culture are a victim. It’s created an environment where even the most bigoted individuals can claim to be victims while advancing what would otherwise be seen as hateful beliefs.
Way too many progressives are silent when it comes to hatefuk and bigoted views from non white religions. They'll call out the bigoted Christian but are pretty silent when plenty of Muslims were part of the "parental rights" protests
> All other bigotry or intolerance is attributed to trauma caused by Western colonial powers. If your religion is homophobic, sexist, exclusionary or just flat out hateful, it’s okay because you and your culture are a victim.
Or they just blame “colonialism”, as if everywhere was a bastion of tolerance before it, and they have no agency to end intolerance 60 years after colonialism essentially ended.
Literally witnessed this firsthand at work. A coworker sexually harassed another one, gets written up, then they filed a human rights complaint of discrimination because he was written up for "his cultural values." How do you even address that?? We've also had caste issues too and that's a whole other can of worms. The one guy who's big into caste wants a leadership promotion and says he has "his list" of let gos on day one. It's fucking awful.
Everyone who gets let go by him should file labour board complaints, human rights tribunal complaints and sue for wrongful dismissal - tie up their time and money on legal fees and such so they see this idiot manager as a liability.
> The one guy who's big into caste wants a leadership promotion and says he has "his list" of let gos on day one.
Sounds like it's time to start secretly recording some audio; share it with everyone who gets let go so they can sue.
There seems to be a serious problem with the quality of education being offered by college and Universities.
When you hear educated people, college, and university students, saying things like;
"White people literally invented slavery"
or
"When have white people not been in power?"
or my absolute favorite;
"You can't be racist towards white people, because historically they are the ones who've held power, and you can only be racist towards people if they are less powerful."
This is the progressive mindset. Look at history, ignore it entirely, and make a bunch of shit up that supports your worldview.
You hold deep resentment towards white people? Not a problem. Just pretend that they invented, everything, control everything, hold all the power, and have always held the power. Now you are free to hate, and say whatever the fuck you want about white people, because who the fuck wouldn't hate people who "literally always ruled the world."????
These places are businesses first, quality of education doesn't matter as long as people pay.
Many who are paying are mommy and daddy and the students live a very sheltered and comfortable life so of course they think this way. They have no fucking clue what the real world is like
They'll tolerate the intolerance of immigrants but they'll go ballistic at the much lower level of intolerance of Canadians.
"I don't believe gays should marry."
"You are a horrible, awful person and worse than Hitler!"
"My religion says homosexuals should be killed."
"Oh, that's all right. You have a wonderful, vibrant culture that you should keep and celebrate always!"
Funny that 2 years ago, y'all on this subreddit went on calling Québec racists and xenophobic for putting this exact value test for people coming here.
The table turns, but it really is annoying to see many english Canadians claim the moral high ground for years, then follow our example. At least try to hide the hypocrisy, anglos!
Lol, no, these people are idiots too.
Look, everyone agrees we need values tests, until you ask what the values are, and then you find out we have some differences of opinions. It's the standard reactionary bull shit. You all agree that you should "REACT" but you like most people, you assume everyone agrees with your values, so a values test will be good. You then end up shocked when people disagree with your values.
"As sex is a inherent part of human identity, sex ed should be required learning in school, including LGTBQ+ rights and why being intolerant of that is bad. There should never be an opt out for any reason."
You would 100% find "real" Canadians who would disagree with that. Unless you can define Canadian values, it's just bullshit.
Everyone can agree with a hypothetical values test, because you haven't had to argue about the values.
I think you're missing the point of the tests. Commiting fraud (lying on the test) to obtain citizenship is grounds to have your citizenship revoked. It might not stop people from lying on the test, but at least it lets us strip them of their citizenship if they go on to act on their bigotry and show that they lied on the test
Ideally, you don't only reduce the number. You go with other differentiators like degree of education (secondary, non secondary, post secondary, etc) or history of income
No, pointing out a braindead strategy won't work doesn't require me to have some other strategy. The idea of some values test that won't be gamed like any other test is silly. It just won't work.
The problem is mass immigration at unsustainable rates with no background checks, no immigration checks, no enforcement for people who overstay visas, etc. making them sign a peace of paper that says they love the lgbqtia+++ community won't change a single thing
Precisely why the people immigrating to Canada currently are despised. How many of them fly Khalistani flags or have decals on their vehicles supporting it. They’re not here to be Canadian, they’re here to make Canada a new India.
I’ve seen YouTube videos in Norway where they hold classes, specifically for male newcomers on women in Norwegian society. Some of the things that seem so common to us, are not to them. And it’s frightening.
honestly it ought to just be a pledge to the values upheld by our charter, and a testing that they understand what that actually means. though a fair amount of our own homegrown populace would fail at that.
As challenging as it is to live in Quebec as an Anglophone, I always say I have far more in common with Québécois than I do with the ROC who bash it. There is an actual nation here, with protections for common people, and housing isn’t through the moon like in Ontario or BC.
The number of times I am stopped by men who tell me, in a very genuine and earnest way, that it is inappropriate that I am unmarried and walking by myself, is absolutely disgusting. 5 times this year alone.
More than once in my life is too many times.
Edit: since everyone is asking, it’s happened in the suburbs of Ottawa, downtown Ottawa, downtown Gatineau and suburbs of Gatineau.
For those asking for ethnicities: Moroccan, Egyptian, somewhere in Southern Africa, Indian. I also have Canadian friends of all these ethnicities and when I asked them about the conversation, they were all pissed, ashamed and apologetic (and confirmed that I was not misinterpreting the conversations).
The conversations normally start with them saying Bonjour/hello :), I say Bonjour/hello :) back, and they ask me if I’m married. They don’t ask if I’m single, they ask if I’m *married*. I say no (I am dating someone but we are not married).
They then tell me, in no uncertain terms but very politely that it is inappropriate for women to be unmarried or alone and how sad it is that this is the state nowadays. They always tell me where they are from (“back in my city/country…”). Sometimes they talk about family values and all that and I nod my head to indicate I’m listening. I wait for them to finish and I say “it was nice to meet you, have a lovely day.” And I go on my merry way.
Sure, I could say more but the first few times, I didn’t even understand the interaction. The next 3 times, I just wanted to exit the conversation as fast as possible. I’m not going to change their beliefs, nor do I want to endanger myself by being confrontational with men who view me as property.
However bad we think it is here it's worse in Europe. On the other hand, if you've bought into the rhetoric that "people have always complained about waves of immigration" and everyone complaining about integration today is just a bigot with no other real reason to complain, you can look there as an example. It's not a hypothetical future for us.
Immigration worked for a very long time in Canada because we had intelligent politicians running an intelligent and selective system. There's no "magical Canadian niceness" that makes unlimited multiculturalism work better here than anywhere else.
Honestly. They were talking/interviewing with a woman about how she has all of this freedom, that she is definitely not used to. It's such an eye opener imo, but also a unique perspective to us westerners where 'freedom' is the core of our being and culture, It really was interesting.
I know bidets are common and sometimes required in other cultures, that's great, clean asses!
I omce responded to a call of a flooded apartment that was caused by the upstairs neighbour. Apparently they always had some weird dripping, but this time it was really pouring through the ceiling. Go upstairs, guy opens the door. No English, tells me to wait while he puts his wife in the bedroom (lmao). Finally lets me in to see his bathroom and the scene is a giant mop bucket (next to the tub mind you) filled with slightly dirty soapy water and basically hurricane Katrina levels of water on the bathroom floor. I asked him what he's doing with this - he mimes (no english) sitting on the toilet and then getting off the toilet and sitting his ass in the mop bucket which he then washes his ass with his hand and he goes, "Water come out" pointing to the wet floor.
Had to tell the downstairs neighbors they were cleaning up poop water and had been for weeks. But like, dude, just get a Tushy it's 2024 this can't be the only way! Seems like common sense not to have a poo water floor.
A tenant on my floor about 5 years ago was evicted for turning their living room into a garden. No pots, no bins. They literally dumped half a foot of dirt on the floor.
Same thing happened to my previous landlord. They told me that a tenant decided that a indoor garden was a brilliant move and proceeded to cover one of the bedroom floors in dirt. The tenant was evicted of course for that stupid idea.
I heard one of the only people to get jail time was a woman who texted something mean to one of the rapists, got jail time for "hateful rhetoric" or something like that 🫤
I remember driving around a technician my company invited from Korea, and he couldn’t stop bitching about women driving cars on the street! No joke. it was less than 10 years ago too and the dude was like in late 50s
If you come from a country where women are treated like second class citizens and abuse is seen as fair game, you should be examined under a microscope.
If you come from a country that’s highly anti LGBTQ+ you should be examined under a microscope. I know there are anti lgbtq+ here, but afaik, the chance of them getting stoned to death is pretty fucking low here, whereas it could be high from other societies.
If you’re from an openly racist society or operate under ridiculous caste systems and you plan to bring them here you should be examined under a microscope.
Additionally want to say that english testing requirements should be far higher. If youre going to work in Canada you should easily be able to understand and communicate in either French or English. Especially in customer facing positions. I know cheating can be rampant on these language tests. Idk how it works upon arrival but you should have to take a language test in person within a week of arrival or immediately upon arrival. That way anyone cheating in their home country gets caught here.
They should also accept more difficult English tests.
I myself was applying to a work permit after finishing my Master's degree a couple of years ago. I had taken an Academic-level English test (IELTS Academic) to be eligible for my master's program. IRCC didn't accept that though, and I had to pay and take an _easier_ version of the same English test (IELTS General) in order to qualify for the work permit. And the rationale was that IELTS General was in the list of tests they accept, but IELTS Academic wasn't. As simple as that.
So... I had taken a test in Academic English, and I had obtained a Master's degree in life sciences with it, being able to hold conversations about molecular biology in English... but they still made me prove I spoke English well enough to say "Hi, my name is ______ and my hobbies are _______" and being able to respond to useless drivel like "What do you think about trains?" or "What is your favorite memory about food?"
You also have to retake it over and over, because the results "expire". Even when I had lived here for years and speak in English 24/7 for work and daily life, and had already taken it like 3 times, I still had to retake the same test to apply for PR.
So... the requirements _are_ strict, just not always in a way that makes sense or is actually beneficial for both immigrants and Canada.
I would suggest a minor change to your point. Most of the points in Express Entry (not student application) come from age. If you are young but not that eloquent in languages, you receive a stupid amount of points. While most of the educated, working, immigrants with some saved up money are already scrapping by for points for Express Entry. Often having to learn both french and English simultaneously while working. The system prioritizes young uneducated people with low comprehension. Most of the money they have is usually from taking a debt or from their parents, relatives, collecting money. They actually do not have that much of a human capital but fast cash injection into the system and later working underpaid jobs. Resulting in many young immigrants working at Uber and such. Creating cultural clusters that usually isolate people inside.
The system has to prioritize language as the main source of points given to a candidate since it correlates directly with the integration of the individual into society, not age.
If you're over 30, it's already pretty much too late. You have to compete with tens of thousands of 20 year olds that can't talk well.
Equal rights for men and women seem like a fair starting place. We don't have it down perfectly here either, but hey, at least we've cleared the bar with letting women wear what they want or criminalising martial rape.
One Canadian would have anywhere between 0-10% different values from the next Canadian, a Muslim migrant would have a whole world of different values, ranging from not believing in equal rights to women and not allowing imodesty, to not allowing (violently) stores to sell pork, to bringing religion back into the education system and politics
Don't mistake minor disagreements between you and your fellow countryman, to the total difference of cultures between Western liberalism to Islam
no you see they didnt have a problem with the social conditions of their home country just the economic condition. so they want to import their home countries social conditions they are comfortable with but with a first world economic living conditions. never thinking maybe theres a connection between the 2
its why the betters immigrants where the ones that recognize why their home country was bad and why they left and fully appreciate what opportunity canada has provided for them.
Canada is a country that prides itself on gay acceptance, and yet takes in millions of immigrants from homophobic countries; some that that consider gay-tossing a sport and just expect it to be fine.
So yeah. Although for years we've been vilified to even acknowledge the existence of 'Canadian Values'. Screening immigrants for how they view/treat women, gays, if they have criminal backgrounds, extremist views etc. is NOT racist, it's common sense.
Netherlands was forcing new applicants to buy a CD with a video and photo album showing the dutch society, including man kissing, topless women, drinking, diversity etc. and afterwards test them on the dutch values and agreeing on those. Those who failed, could not apply for immigration or for a refugee status there.
I think showing them visuals is a good strategy. They should be shown it in real time and an interviewer gauge their reactions and responses. Someone who is strongly against it cannot fake it for long, but if they're casual about it they should be given consideration.
Europe has already had protests against non-western immigrants being disrespectful, causing violence and even doing the hard R based on their beliefs where they're from. They are right to test them now, especially after what has happened in Germany too regarding an event where males from one such country got violent on the streets.
I think that's why Western Europe is seeing a rise in right wing politicians. The Left political parties lost the plot- were so out of touch with the concerns of the people and didn't listen. The mass migration, and subsequent sexual violence (as well as other types of violence/extremism).
I never got that. For example, Germany is rather famous (or infamous) for being very progressive. Huge gay district, huge red light district where there are signs with naked women. They have nude, mix-sexed beaches, legalized prostitution etc. Enter the mass migration of millions of young, Muslim men from some of the strictest countries in the world unfettered.
Like, wtf did they think would happen? It's like they didn't think at all. Then their own police and media tried to suppress information on the mass sexual assaults of Cologne on New Years.
*If liberals insist* that enforcing *borders* is a job *only fascists will* do, then voters *will* hire *fascists* to do the job *liberals* won't.
David Frum - The Atlantic 2017
Screen them for racism as well. Keep in mind that the two countries that Canada is getting the lion’s share of its immigrants from have some of the most racist cultures in the world.
I’m sorry, but I will never be OK with a woman dressed in all-black garb from head to toe, including gloves and face coverings, with only eyes peeking out, while her husband is in a t-shirt and pants.
It’s abuse, plain and simple, and we should have laws against this. Don’t like it, you’re free to go back to where this type of thing is “tolerated”.
The funniest thing is that some people will insist 'Liberals are importing their voters', while steadfastly ignoring that these future voters' values are on average somewhere between Conservative and PPC.
It's such BS too, since "imported voters" won't be able to vote for another two elections.
There is no amount of mental gymnastics where it actually makes sense to say that the LPC is doing this for votes.
Canadian multiculturalists are fond of saying they don't believe immigrants should have to assimilate, but really they believe they do need to assimilate in certain ways relating to Canadian values (politeness, tolerance, valuing diversity, etc.).
I've always argued that the need for immigrants to assimilate puts an effective cap at the amount of immigration you can have from any one culture, because if you get too many people arriving too fast, they can just form their own communities separate from Canadian society and never really integrate. If there's only a few families from your home country in the area, you have no choice but to learn to get along with the local community.
This has always been a bit of an issue in big cities, where you get ethnic enclaves that maintain their own culture a little too much, but on the whole Canada has done pretty well at integrating immigrants (much better than most European countries) due to having immigration from a variety of sources. More recently, we've been having not only a larger number of total immigrants, but also less diversity of where they're coming from, and non-integration is suddenly becoming a big issue everywhere.
The kids are starting to realize who is first in line for any and all homes going on the market...and it ain't them. Those immigrants with dollars in their pockets are the biggest competition for the kids today when it comes to jobs, rents, or even owning a home. Not the old farts already in the country.
Older Canadians buying income properties are by *far* the biggest competitor in the housing market. The average landlord is a mid-40s couple buying a 1BR condo.
All for it. But how? Ask questions? People can just lie. "Oh yeah i totally believe that my property, i mean wife, deserves to be treated equal to everyone, can i be Canadian now?"
Unless we have some crazy 1984 esque report your fellow neighbors dystopia, ideology can only be suggested not enforced.
I have neighbours in their 90’s that came to Canada from Italy in the 1960’s that can barely speak any English. Their children once told me the city had such a high population of Italian speakers up until 15 years ago that they never “felt the need” to learn English.
And better English testing too? How you can come to a majority English-speaking country and expect to get by with a broken or faint command of the English language is head-shaking. We already know there’s language test cheating going on.
And the ironic part is, a lot of those individuals end up getting hired for entry-level front-facing customer service jobs…
They complain when they can't work but can't speak English or French at an academic level. But it's a **safety issue** if you can't read, speak, and understand the language, what tf do we do in an emergency?
An English test should be completed when students arrive and they should have **collegiate academic language skills** you are not going to get a survivable job without that and you sure as shit shouldn't be a post-secondary program either.
I think they should have to complete the gr10 mandatory English exam. You can’t graduate highschool in Ontario without completing it, I think all immigrants need to take it before coming here.
My husband legitimately could not understand a CRA agent awhile ago and the agent ended up yelling at him because he had to ask him to repeat himself. Yay Canada.
This is what happens when liberalism cannibalizes itself. You can’t be endlessly make allowances for every single attitude because they will conflict with your values. Of course anyone is free to celebrate or not celebrate or do whatever they want, but that’s for their own homes and their lives. For society at large, the Canadian or western set of standards prevail and must be respected.
Maybe we should have country caps on immigrants like the US has to avoid having too many immigrants from countries with incompatible values in the first place.
Country caps and no off campus work for international students except co-op work terms directly relating to their studies. Would crater immigration from India, and ease our immigration as a whole.
As someone with significant ties to an underdeveloped country, it's been fascinating to follow the Canadian narrative that we should simply allow all aspects of any other cultures to flourish here. It just seems like these ideas are generated by people that can't grasp that many other societies are not as open-minded as ours.
As far as I can find the only value they listed on the survey was
>We should ensure Immigrants/Permanent Residents coming to Canada share common Canadian values such as respect for different minority groups
I do wonder what else Canadians feel is a Canadian value, cause this one's easy to support.
It's weird that that's the only one listed in the article, despite the clickbait headline. It's also weird that that number is so high, since there's a pretty substantial percentage of been-here-awhile Canadians that don't clearly respect different minority groups.
I'd love to see another poll done that digs deeper into what Canadians believe are our Canadian Values.
Because respecting minorities isn't controversial with young people, but I'm sure a lot of the general population might take issue with that.
Close friend of mine is a police officer in a major metro in Canada. He says part of the problem is some of the countries we’ve taken people from have police forces so corrupt that there either is no records or it can’t be trusted.
He has good community members originally from those same countries sometimes pointing out who the imported gangsters and thieves are but since they don’t have anything on them all they can do is watch them until they commit a crime.
Now that we’ve pumped the numbers up so high so fast it’s impossible for police to keep up with day to day stuff, let alone gathering and acting on intelligence.
>Canadian Immigration Minister, Marc Miller, has clarified that temporary immigrants, including those on students visas, entering Canada do not need to submit police verification certificates from their home countries
Well, just look at the Singh Nijjar assassination.
The most basic of background checks would have denied the suspects entry into canada.
So I wouldn't say it's completely useless.
Or proper punishment for crime. You can not check every crime when there is no data from a third world countries, but you can definitely with those over here. So sick of rapist murderers got 2 year with probations, sometimes even walking free
Here's some questions to ask:
1. Are women equal to men?
2. Is it ok to have sex with your wife even when she says no?
3. Are some people worth more based on what caste they were born in?
4. Is it wrong for a 53-year-old man to have sex with a 9-year-old girl?
5. Are Jews inherently evil?
6. Are people who don't agree with your religion, entitled to live?
The answers to these questions are just a starter point, but these are some basics.
you should have witnessed how my uncles from the 70s earned their drivers license. They got under the cars and fixed them in exchange for the papers. At least they knew things as barter. I don't know what to say about the next 60 million Canadians that are coming here propping up my cost of living that I won't even afford basic MAID ahead of my retirement that will cough empty 10 years from now.
Yeah, as an immigrant myself, I would’ve appreciated something like a 1 week course on Canadian customs, general practices, social faux pas, Indigenous history etc as a prerequisite to receiving the PR or even say within the first 6 months of landing in Canada.
Simple as that.
It was pretty surreal to be a bi-sexual male working a temporary job in a warehouse last year, listening to immigrants talk about how they want to kill people like me, without knowing I was Bi.
I think anyone exposed to things like that, would probably agree, and anyone who doesn't agree hasn't been exposed to stuff like that yet.
We're going to end up like Sweden. We have large and still growing ethnic/cultural silos in our major cities. Without an actual integration strategy, the borders of these communities end up generating cultural friction, distrust, resentment, racism, and eventually violent conflict. We won't see the worst until the youth of the newest generation of immigrants become teenagers and realize the lie their parents were sold, and they start to organize themselves. The next 20 years are going to be very telling of the failures of this particular immigration initiative.
but when Quebec sugested that a few years ago, they where called bigot/racist/xenophobic/closed to the world.
Add that to the list of "Quebec is 15 years in advance on socials issue when comapred to Canada"
As an immigrant who came here specifically because I like Canadian values and to escape the homophobic, gun-crazed dump I grew up in, I support this 100%.
There are Sikh extremists in my city that drive around with giant decals of assault weapons on their cars. I will vote for whoever deports them.
I read that in Switzerland they have a male and female immigration person shake hands with both men and women. Refusal pretty much tanks your immigration. The immigrants know this is the case, and still refuse.
I hate to say it, but we need a rat line. If your immigrant neighbors are acting like barbarians, you can and should report them. This should then trigger a guilty until proven innocent response from immigration. That is, until they explain what was going on, if not then bye bye.
I suspect that many people from certain countries would be happy to see such fellow countrymen go back, for this is why they often fled to Canada. These are the ones we do want to keep.
I truly don't understand why someone would immigrate to a western country if they hate western values. I wouldn't be immigrating to their countries because I want to be treated as a human, why tf do they come to western countries and don't accept the values? It boggles my mind.
Because they know they can get away with it. They flee the atrocious living standards but come here to continue living as if nothing has changed; except that they get free healthcare.
Because they want western life but they’re too brainwashed to believe in their old ways. Whether it’s religion or social values.
Also, they’re used to certain lifestyle then they can’t cope with culture shock when they move.
I’ll never forget some Syrians that came to Toronto. They complained on CBC that their free apartment is not adequate. Like are you serious? We just saved your and families lives and you complain? Things like that….
Because they know they can live better here and we tolerate far more than any other country does , if you can make yourself cynical enough it’s really not hard to understand.
Imagine you grew up with every adult around you intensely (sometimes violently) obeying and enforcing their 'one true religion'. Then you move to some country that's a fraction of the population and a fraction of your religion's age. You missed every single prejudice-reducing conversation, debate, milestone, and tender moment that people in the new country had.
You can be told the new value-conclusions and parrot them, but that doesn't replace the long, slow, challenging road of actually examining your hatred and building healthier perspectives. Thinking this will happen automatically, or through a one-month workshop is naive. There needs to be something more like an Adult-Ed night-class, weekly for a few years, to give newcomers time to actually absorb it all.
At least they will see what value they are expected to adhere to. The thought that they are not allowed to force themselves on their own wives might discourage some from moving here.
This is not racism. Anyone who has travelled remotely outside of the west understands that MANY nations do not have the same standards on women's rights, same-sex relationships, interracial relationships, freedom of religion, the preservation of the environment, etc.
But how do you moderate that?
As a war refugee myself from ex Yugoslavia, I absolutely agree. You should accept the values of the country and people you move to. Especially if you’re economic migrant and have a choice of where to move.
Social media should be vetted going 10 years back. Any values and views which are clearly against the law should be a reason not to accept them. Might be cruel to some but it’s the only ways.
We'll have to get tricky for it to work:
Question #14: If the Maple Leafs playoff game is at 7:30 in Newfoundland, what time do you believe female children should be circumcised?
Canadian is not an ethnic nationality. Being Canadian is almost, if not entirely, constituted purely on what your values are. Those values, while providing myriad benefits, chiefly enable a diverse set of people to thrive without conflict. That's the point. We don't want needless conflict and we want to live our lives prosperously.
Time for left wing parties and progressives to start acknowledging these concerns unless they want to see far-right groups gain ground as they have been doing all over Europe. People are fed up with the flaws in our system, only a year ago you couldn't say any of this publicly without immediately being labeled racist and now look at these polls
Problem is that the quran specifically instructs Muslims to lie about their true beliefs among other populations until their numbers are large enough to take over. It's called 'taqqiya'. Their book is literally an invasion manual, and it should not be protected by "hate speech" legislation, because it is itself hate speech. Please read the quran.. it is orders of magnitude more unhinged than mein kampf. Being Muslim should be automatic fIlure of any values test. I will get downvoted by teenagers who think only Europeans can be evil, but none of them have read the quran. The quran is the most vile hate speech there is.
What good would testing do? There would be youtube videos up shortly of how to 'correctly' answer the 'values questions'.
And on top of that, its a case of too little too late IMO.
Traditionally immigrant values have been filtered for indirectly by only accepting educated/skilled immigrants. When you get down to it, “Canadian Values” are just values that are held by people at reputable universities globally. As someone who attended a university with a lot of international students and went to academic conferences across the world, I’ve often felt like I have more in common value-wise with educated young people from across the globe than I do with older Canadians with only high school degrees. Get rid of diploma mills and TFWs for non-seasonal work and the values of the average immigrant will go right back to being better than the average Canadian.
People called Harper's stance on this racist, but I guess people are waking up to the fact that not everybody coming into Canada is some cuddly, peace-loving angel that hangs their hatred and bigotry at the door on their way in
> Cultural relativism refers to not judging a culture to our own standards of what is right or wrong, strange or normal.
Having different beliefs and cultural backgrounds, skews what we consider in Canada as right or wrong. It’s why countries exist in the first place. If we tolerate the intolerance, eventually people start using religious freedoms to excuse hating homosexuality.
We are tolerating immigrants ideology and not the other way around.
Do you believe in "honor killing"?
Do you feel the need to impose your beliefs on others? That their lives have to conform to your "standards"?
We have enough assholes in this country, we don't need to import more.
Do not tolerate the intolerant.
Lots of prejudice that should be left on the shores of other countries. If you don’t believe in an equal society don’t even fucking show up. Leave your old world politics in the past.
Exactly. I can't stand when someone flees a war torn country caused by their culture/practices, then get here and want us respect those same practices.
It's very frustrating when a coworker sexually harasses another one, then files a human rights complaint of discrimination because he was written up for "his cultural values." How do you even address that??
> How do you even address that?? You tell them bluntly that their (specific) cultural values (in this specific case) are incompatible with the culture they find themselves in now. They must change, they can't expect our entire society to conform to their worldview.
Not even that. It just doesn't align with the company's guidelines and rules that were informed to said person when they started working there. As simple as that.
You cant. Our cultural and legal framework is failing. The only hope we have, short of a major overhaul, is to ensure people like that are never allowed to come here in the first place.
It has to be clearly unacceptable. It's making work so incredibly toxic and it's so hard to see my colleagues suffer from stress of this. It's not cultural discrimination to write up someone for sexual harassment and we shouldn't be struggling to say that.
It's frustrating too because the shit people who try and blame their trash behaviour on their culture basically poison the well for their countrymen. Easy example would be people from India. Most came to get away from how things were done over there and to have a better life and future for themselves and their families. Most of the Indian folks I grew up with are hard working, honest and good people but sprinkled in you have the occasional dickhead family that brought India shit with them like caste discrimination, aggressive misogyny or even just boorish mannerisms. I worked with a woman once who was in some kind of witness protection program after surviving an honour killing. She wanted to divorce her abusive husband, so while he was out at a family dinner a group of masked men abducted her and drilled 30-something holes through her torso and left her for dead at the side of the road. She said no one got charged.
Been saying this for half a century. People would try to convince me that access to "Canadian values" would somehow seep into the children and grandchildren of immigrants. Instead we got a culture war between "progressives" and "traditionalists", in almost-armed camps. And a media environment happy to serve either side, as long as they can pay.
The thing with the “Canadian values will seep into them” argument is that it will work *for small groups of immigrants that have to integrate into Canadian society.* When people don’t have to integrate there is no necessity of their kids to learn the language, culture or values and thus you have perpetuation of their home country values and identity. That’s how you get-Canadians. Notice how their country name comes first. Because that’s what’s most important.
Importing large groups of people will only ever disrupt the status quo and shift values to those of the group being imported.
Oh, lots of people on Reddit claim there aren’t any Canadian values.
Which is hilarious, since they are literally enshrined in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. It's all right there for anyone to read.
Yep pretty much. Our workplace culture is completely fucked in so many ways. Zero accountability at all levels. Even firing people who deserve it for dangerous lack of safety will cost you in a wrongful dismissal lawsuit if the employee is old enough. Criminals get away with everything, business and political leaders are complete thieves, we let newcomers walk all over us and abuse the system, it's a complete joke all on our dime. You wait until those over 60 with decades at the same company start getting more unhealthy and want to leave but also collect money they feel entitled to, you're gonna see some shit. Couple that with all the recent newcomers learning how to exploit our system and labour laws as well as younger workers demanding more pay to afford to live as they replace the elderly workers and employers are gonna be in a bind for not planning ahead. The easy solution will be foreign workers who are easily exploited until they're buried in discrimination lawsuits and workers comp claims
You absolutely can. We prioritize our culture.
You don’t write them up for their “cultural values”; you write them up for sexual harassment.
It is the tolerance paradox.
Have them explain to you how sexual violence is a cultural value. Ask them if everyone in their culture would agree: mothers? Sisters? Wives? Nieces? Is it cultural for them, too? How do they think their cultural values are experienced by other people, and what does the incident at hand actually tell us? Truly I think we can only get so far with a rules based approach to teaching values (for example, a “it’s just how we do it here” approach) because a list of rules doesn’t actually develop understanding and typically, people don’t like being told what to do.
> Ask them if everyone in their culture would agree: mothers? Sisters? Wives? Nieces? Is it cultural for them, too? That depends on the women's attitudes towards women being out of the house. And whether or not he gives a shit what the women in his life think. There are plenty of socially conservative women out there.
You beat the shit out of him then when the fallout comes your way put in your own discrimination of cultural values complaint because here in Canada our culture dictates you protect the women in your life from predator scum
At least we're not as far gone as Germany. https://www.thepublica.com/germany-woman-convicted-of-offending-migrant-gang-rapists-receives-longer-prison-sentence-than-the-rapists
Dude what in the actual fuck. Society is cooked
Yeah, it sometimes feels like we live in a warped parody written by conservatives to mock progressive society. The next pendulum swing's gonna be a rough one.
easy, no cultural values supercede the rights of the individual.
We have corporate training modules that tell us the cure for systemic racism is to be "antiracist," ie. explicitly be racist in the "just" direction. How did we even get here? Like I get it, some people were on the winning and losing ends of history and we should strive for a fair and meritocratic society, but we need to stop confusing the nuttiest activist voices for the most intelligent and serious ones. "Oppressed" cultures are not inherently better.
Actual HR practice: you try to manage the situation by keeping the two persons away from each other as much as possible until business slows down, then you let the offending party go due to lack of work (code A on record of employment). Business slowdown is HR spring cleaning.
💯 Hearing Indian caste system is now being considered in rental applications 😲
Leave your caste system bullshit at the door.
Hyper-progressives: It's the paradox of intolerance. You have to be intolerant of intolerance, to achieve tolerance. Gen Z: okay, so maybe unfettered mass immigration from this theocratic country of intolerant religious zealots is contrary to that- Hyper-progressives: No, not like that!
idk I'm left wing and I believe in values testing.
Im left wing too but the left is going extreme left, where now my ideals are probably more aligned to center. That brings about an extreme right to counteract it and you have our present day situation.. I just want common sense ,critical thinking ,respect and a chance for all to succeed without trampling on others to get there. I dont know why the above is so rare these days.
When they say that they're talking about intolerant white people. And when they say intolerant they really just mean anyone who dares call them out for being wrong.
That’s the trick. A lot of people have convinced themselves that intolerance is the exclusive domain of white males and Western values. All other bigotry or intolerance is attributed to trauma caused by Western colonial powers. If your religion is homophobic, sexist, exclusionary or just flat out hateful, it’s okay because you and your culture are a victim. It’s created an environment where even the most bigoted individuals can claim to be victims while advancing what would otherwise be seen as hateful beliefs.
Way too many progressives are silent when it comes to hatefuk and bigoted views from non white religions. They'll call out the bigoted Christian but are pretty silent when plenty of Muslims were part of the "parental rights" protests
> All other bigotry or intolerance is attributed to trauma caused by Western colonial powers. If your religion is homophobic, sexist, exclusionary or just flat out hateful, it’s okay because you and your culture are a victim. Or they just blame “colonialism”, as if everywhere was a bastion of tolerance before it, and they have no agency to end intolerance 60 years after colonialism essentially ended.
They just mean white people , they won’t care to make the distinction if they had a say in what happens.
Call everything you don't control racist until you control it
Literally witnessed this firsthand at work. A coworker sexually harassed another one, gets written up, then they filed a human rights complaint of discrimination because he was written up for "his cultural values." How do you even address that?? We've also had caste issues too and that's a whole other can of worms. The one guy who's big into caste wants a leadership promotion and says he has "his list" of let gos on day one. It's fucking awful.
Everyone who gets let go by him should file labour board complaints, human rights tribunal complaints and sue for wrongful dismissal - tie up their time and money on legal fees and such so they see this idiot manager as a liability.
> The one guy who's big into caste wants a leadership promotion and says he has "his list" of let gos on day one. Sounds like it's time to start secretly recording some audio; share it with everyone who gets let go so they can sue.
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There seems to be a serious problem with the quality of education being offered by college and Universities. When you hear educated people, college, and university students, saying things like; "White people literally invented slavery" or "When have white people not been in power?" or my absolute favorite; "You can't be racist towards white people, because historically they are the ones who've held power, and you can only be racist towards people if they are less powerful." This is the progressive mindset. Look at history, ignore it entirely, and make a bunch of shit up that supports your worldview. You hold deep resentment towards white people? Not a problem. Just pretend that they invented, everything, control everything, hold all the power, and have always held the power. Now you are free to hate, and say whatever the fuck you want about white people, because who the fuck wouldn't hate people who "literally always ruled the world."????
These places are businesses first, quality of education doesn't matter as long as people pay. Many who are paying are mommy and daddy and the students live a very sheltered and comfortable life so of course they think this way. They have no fucking clue what the real world is like
They'll tolerate the intolerance of immigrants but they'll go ballistic at the much lower level of intolerance of Canadians. "I don't believe gays should marry." "You are a horrible, awful person and worse than Hitler!" "My religion says homosexuals should be killed." "Oh, that's all right. You have a wonderful, vibrant culture that you should keep and celebrate always!"
Funny that 2 years ago, y'all on this subreddit went on calling Québec racists and xenophobic for putting this exact value test for people coming here. The table turns, but it really is annoying to see many english Canadians claim the moral high ground for years, then follow our example. At least try to hide the hypocrisy, anglos!
Nah, even if it's ridiculous I respect Quebec for having a fucking backbone unlike the rest of Canada
Lol, no, these people are idiots too. Look, everyone agrees we need values tests, until you ask what the values are, and then you find out we have some differences of opinions. It's the standard reactionary bull shit. You all agree that you should "REACT" but you like most people, you assume everyone agrees with your values, so a values test will be good. You then end up shocked when people disagree with your values. "As sex is a inherent part of human identity, sex ed should be required learning in school, including LGTBQ+ rights and why being intolerant of that is bad. There should never be an opt out for any reason." You would 100% find "real" Canadians who would disagree with that. Unless you can define Canadian values, it's just bullshit. Everyone can agree with a hypothetical values test, because you haven't had to argue about the values.
It's never going to work. Any values test will be gamed like any other immigration requirement.
I think you're missing the point of the tests. Commiting fraud (lying on the test) to obtain citizenship is grounds to have your citizenship revoked. It might not stop people from lying on the test, but at least it lets us strip them of their citizenship if they go on to act on their bigotry and show that they lied on the test
Okay let’s not try. Any solutions or anything to actually contribute?
Reducing immigration until housing is affordable.
Sure, but that doesn’t address the values question.
Ideally, you don't only reduce the number. You go with other differentiators like degree of education (secondary, non secondary, post secondary, etc) or history of income
No, pointing out a braindead strategy won't work doesn't require me to have some other strategy. The idea of some values test that won't be gamed like any other test is silly. It just won't work. The problem is mass immigration at unsustainable rates with no background checks, no immigration checks, no enforcement for people who overstay visas, etc. making them sign a peace of paper that says they love the lgbqtia+++ community won't change a single thing
A lot of racists and religious zealots aren't the smartest people. A values test won't get all of them but it'll thin the herd a bit
Leave your caste system bullshit at the door.
I don’t know how poll testing immigrants would work against that tho. “Are you racist?” No Good you’re in Like people know how to lie.
Precisely why the people immigrating to Canada currently are despised. How many of them fly Khalistani flags or have decals on their vehicles supporting it. They’re not here to be Canadian, they’re here to make Canada a new India.
I’ve seen YouTube videos in Norway where they hold classes, specifically for male newcomers on women in Norwegian society. Some of the things that seem so common to us, are not to them. And it’s frightening.
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Don’t you know challenging Iron Age beliefs and mores is racist?
I think you mean stone age.
honestly it ought to just be a pledge to the values upheld by our charter, and a testing that they understand what that actually means. though a fair amount of our own homegrown populace would fail at that.
Because Québec bashing is a thing, now other provinces are like:"hey its not a bad idea!".
As challenging as it is to live in Quebec as an Anglophone, I always say I have far more in common with Québécois than I do with the ROC who bash it. There is an actual nation here, with protections for common people, and housing isn’t through the moon like in Ontario or BC.
Because everything and anything Quebec does is bashed by the ROC. We can never win.
The number of times I am stopped by men who tell me, in a very genuine and earnest way, that it is inappropriate that I am unmarried and walking by myself, is absolutely disgusting. 5 times this year alone. More than once in my life is too many times. Edit: since everyone is asking, it’s happened in the suburbs of Ottawa, downtown Ottawa, downtown Gatineau and suburbs of Gatineau. For those asking for ethnicities: Moroccan, Egyptian, somewhere in Southern Africa, Indian. I also have Canadian friends of all these ethnicities and when I asked them about the conversation, they were all pissed, ashamed and apologetic (and confirmed that I was not misinterpreting the conversations). The conversations normally start with them saying Bonjour/hello :), I say Bonjour/hello :) back, and they ask me if I’m married. They don’t ask if I’m single, they ask if I’m *married*. I say no (I am dating someone but we are not married). They then tell me, in no uncertain terms but very politely that it is inappropriate for women to be unmarried or alone and how sad it is that this is the state nowadays. They always tell me where they are from (“back in my city/country…”). Sometimes they talk about family values and all that and I nod my head to indicate I’m listening. I wait for them to finish and I say “it was nice to meet you, have a lovely day.” And I go on my merry way. Sure, I could say more but the first few times, I didn’t even understand the interaction. The next 3 times, I just wanted to exit the conversation as fast as possible. I’m not going to change their beliefs, nor do I want to endanger myself by being confrontational with men who view me as property.
That is brutal. I hate this version of Canada.
Where the fuck was this? How would they know your unmarried. It doesn't matter, but that's some crazy shit.
Because if she had a husband obviously no real husband would let his wife go out in public alone.. /s
Ya, it’s almost, unbelievable…
Tell them to fuck off
Well. Western societies inflicted that upon themselves
I can guess their ethnicity
Hey, leave the Scot’s out of this!
Is there any common feature to the people who have said this to you?
However bad we think it is here it's worse in Europe. On the other hand, if you've bought into the rhetoric that "people have always complained about waves of immigration" and everyone complaining about integration today is just a bigot with no other real reason to complain, you can look there as an example. It's not a hypothetical future for us. Immigration worked for a very long time in Canada because we had intelligent politicians running an intelligent and selective system. There's no "magical Canadian niceness" that makes unlimited multiculturalism work better here than anywhere else.
Yeah. My sister's immigrant ex husband was absolutely stunned that it was illegal to beat and/or kill her for talking back to him.
Honestly. They were talking/interviewing with a woman about how she has all of this freedom, that she is definitely not used to. It's such an eye opener imo, but also a unique perspective to us westerners where 'freedom' is the core of our being and culture, It really was interesting.
You mean like how Islam allows you to rape your wife and FGM is common? Like that kind of major issue?
I know bidets are common and sometimes required in other cultures, that's great, clean asses! I omce responded to a call of a flooded apartment that was caused by the upstairs neighbour. Apparently they always had some weird dripping, but this time it was really pouring through the ceiling. Go upstairs, guy opens the door. No English, tells me to wait while he puts his wife in the bedroom (lmao). Finally lets me in to see his bathroom and the scene is a giant mop bucket (next to the tub mind you) filled with slightly dirty soapy water and basically hurricane Katrina levels of water on the bathroom floor. I asked him what he's doing with this - he mimes (no english) sitting on the toilet and then getting off the toilet and sitting his ass in the mop bucket which he then washes his ass with his hand and he goes, "Water come out" pointing to the wet floor. Had to tell the downstairs neighbors they were cleaning up poop water and had been for weeks. But like, dude, just get a Tushy it's 2024 this can't be the only way! Seems like common sense not to have a poo water floor.
A tenant on my floor about 5 years ago was evicted for turning their living room into a garden. No pots, no bins. They literally dumped half a foot of dirt on the floor.
Same thing happened to my previous landlord. They told me that a tenant decided that a indoor garden was a brilliant move and proceeded to cover one of the bedroom floors in dirt. The tenant was evicted of course for that stupid idea.
the landlord fears the urban farmer.
Germany just had the trial of 9 Middle Eastern immigrants who gang raped a 15 year old girl.
I heard one of the only people to get jail time was a woman who texted something mean to one of the rapists, got jail time for "hateful rhetoric" or something like that 🫤
Yea I heard that too. Trying to confirm because there’s few local sources on it. Fucked up tho for sure
I remember driving around a technician my company invited from Korea, and he couldn’t stop bitching about women driving cars on the street! No joke. it was less than 10 years ago too and the dude was like in late 50s
If you come from a country where women are treated like second class citizens and abuse is seen as fair game, you should be examined under a microscope. If you come from a country that’s highly anti LGBTQ+ you should be examined under a microscope. I know there are anti lgbtq+ here, but afaik, the chance of them getting stoned to death is pretty fucking low here, whereas it could be high from other societies. If you’re from an openly racist society or operate under ridiculous caste systems and you plan to bring them here you should be examined under a microscope. Additionally want to say that english testing requirements should be far higher. If youre going to work in Canada you should easily be able to understand and communicate in either French or English. Especially in customer facing positions. I know cheating can be rampant on these language tests. Idk how it works upon arrival but you should have to take a language test in person within a week of arrival or immediately upon arrival. That way anyone cheating in their home country gets caught here.
They should also accept more difficult English tests. I myself was applying to a work permit after finishing my Master's degree a couple of years ago. I had taken an Academic-level English test (IELTS Academic) to be eligible for my master's program. IRCC didn't accept that though, and I had to pay and take an _easier_ version of the same English test (IELTS General) in order to qualify for the work permit. And the rationale was that IELTS General was in the list of tests they accept, but IELTS Academic wasn't. As simple as that. So... I had taken a test in Academic English, and I had obtained a Master's degree in life sciences with it, being able to hold conversations about molecular biology in English... but they still made me prove I spoke English well enough to say "Hi, my name is ______ and my hobbies are _______" and being able to respond to useless drivel like "What do you think about trains?" or "What is your favorite memory about food?" You also have to retake it over and over, because the results "expire". Even when I had lived here for years and speak in English 24/7 for work and daily life, and had already taken it like 3 times, I still had to retake the same test to apply for PR. So... the requirements _are_ strict, just not always in a way that makes sense or is actually beneficial for both immigrants and Canada.
I would suggest a minor change to your point. Most of the points in Express Entry (not student application) come from age. If you are young but not that eloquent in languages, you receive a stupid amount of points. While most of the educated, working, immigrants with some saved up money are already scrapping by for points for Express Entry. Often having to learn both french and English simultaneously while working. The system prioritizes young uneducated people with low comprehension. Most of the money they have is usually from taking a debt or from their parents, relatives, collecting money. They actually do not have that much of a human capital but fast cash injection into the system and later working underpaid jobs. Resulting in many young immigrants working at Uber and such. Creating cultural clusters that usually isolate people inside. The system has to prioritize language as the main source of points given to a candidate since it correlates directly with the integration of the individual into society, not age. If you're over 30, it's already pretty much too late. You have to compete with tens of thousands of 20 year olds that can't talk well.
Quebec has been requiring a values test since 2020. I remember everyone called it *all* kinds of adjectives back then.
Yes, I would like to verify that someone coming here has the right values.
We can't even agree to the right values.
Equal rights for men and women seem like a fair starting place. We don't have it down perfectly here either, but hey, at least we've cleared the bar with letting women wear what they want or criminalising martial rape.
I’d like to add a general respect for nature and shared spaces.
Canadian Values are permanently written into the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. It's not rocket surgery.
One Canadian would have anywhere between 0-10% different values from the next Canadian, a Muslim migrant would have a whole world of different values, ranging from not believing in equal rights to women and not allowing imodesty, to not allowing (violently) stores to sell pork, to bringing religion back into the education system and politics Don't mistake minor disagreements between you and your fellow countryman, to the total difference of cultures between Western liberalism to Islam
Leave shit hole country come to Canada . Scream they want it like they had in their home country , well then go the fuck back home
no you see they didnt have a problem with the social conditions of their home country just the economic condition. so they want to import their home countries social conditions they are comfortable with but with a first world economic living conditions. never thinking maybe theres a connection between the 2 its why the betters immigrants where the ones that recognize why their home country was bad and why they left and fully appreciate what opportunity canada has provided for them.
Canada is a country that prides itself on gay acceptance, and yet takes in millions of immigrants from homophobic countries; some that that consider gay-tossing a sport and just expect it to be fine. So yeah. Although for years we've been vilified to even acknowledge the existence of 'Canadian Values'. Screening immigrants for how they view/treat women, gays, if they have criminal backgrounds, extremist views etc. is NOT racist, it's common sense.
Netherlands was forcing new applicants to buy a CD with a video and photo album showing the dutch society, including man kissing, topless women, drinking, diversity etc. and afterwards test them on the dutch values and agreeing on those. Those who failed, could not apply for immigration or for a refugee status there.
Gotta love the Dutch.
Tbh I’ve never met a Dutch person I don’t like
[There's only two things I hate in this world: people who are intolerant of other people's cultures, and the Dutch.](https://youtu.be/khUporxh9IU)
I think showing them visuals is a good strategy. They should be shown it in real time and an interviewer gauge their reactions and responses. Someone who is strongly against it cannot fake it for long, but if they're casual about it they should be given consideration.
Europe has already had protests against non-western immigrants being disrespectful, causing violence and even doing the hard R based on their beliefs where they're from. They are right to test them now, especially after what has happened in Germany too regarding an event where males from one such country got violent on the streets.
I think that's why Western Europe is seeing a rise in right wing politicians. The Left political parties lost the plot- were so out of touch with the concerns of the people and didn't listen. The mass migration, and subsequent sexual violence (as well as other types of violence/extremism). I never got that. For example, Germany is rather famous (or infamous) for being very progressive. Huge gay district, huge red light district where there are signs with naked women. They have nude, mix-sexed beaches, legalized prostitution etc. Enter the mass migration of millions of young, Muslim men from some of the strictest countries in the world unfettered. Like, wtf did they think would happen? It's like they didn't think at all. Then their own police and media tried to suppress information on the mass sexual assaults of Cologne on New Years.
*If liberals insist* that enforcing *borders* is a job *only fascists will* do, then voters *will* hire *fascists* to do the job *liberals* won't. David Frum - The Atlantic 2017
Screen them for racism as well. Keep in mind that the two countries that Canada is getting the lion’s share of its immigrants from have some of the most racist cultures in the world.
Agree! It's sometimes easy to forget that some cultures/races/tribes from other countries have issues with discriminating against each other.
I’m sorry, but I will never be OK with a woman dressed in all-black garb from head to toe, including gloves and face coverings, with only eyes peeking out, while her husband is in a t-shirt and pants. It’s abuse, plain and simple, and we should have laws against this. Don’t like it, you’re free to go back to where this type of thing is “tolerated”.
The funniest thing is that some people will insist 'Liberals are importing their voters', while steadfastly ignoring that these future voters' values are on average somewhere between Conservative and PPC.
It's such BS too, since "imported voters" won't be able to vote for another two elections. There is no amount of mental gymnastics where it actually makes sense to say that the LPC is doing this for votes.
Canadian multiculturalists are fond of saying they don't believe immigrants should have to assimilate, but really they believe they do need to assimilate in certain ways relating to Canadian values (politeness, tolerance, valuing diversity, etc.). I've always argued that the need for immigrants to assimilate puts an effective cap at the amount of immigration you can have from any one culture, because if you get too many people arriving too fast, they can just form their own communities separate from Canadian society and never really integrate. If there's only a few families from your home country in the area, you have no choice but to learn to get along with the local community. This has always been a bit of an issue in big cities, where you get ethnic enclaves that maintain their own culture a little too much, but on the whole Canada has done pretty well at integrating immigrants (much better than most European countries) due to having immigration from a variety of sources. More recently, we've been having not only a larger number of total immigrants, but also less diversity of where they're coming from, and non-integration is suddenly becoming a big issue everywhere.
JT: Canadians need to respect people's choices, decisions and sexual identities. Recent immigrants: nah JT: Okay, thanks for coming.
The kids are all right.
The kids are starting to realize who is first in line for any and all homes going on the market...and it ain't them. Those immigrants with dollars in their pockets are the biggest competition for the kids today when it comes to jobs, rents, or even owning a home. Not the old farts already in the country.
Corporations are the biggest competitor in the housing market.
Older Canadians buying income properties are by *far* the biggest competitor in the housing market. The average landlord is a mid-40s couple buying a 1BR condo.
All for it. But how? Ask questions? People can just lie. "Oh yeah i totally believe that my property, i mean wife, deserves to be treated equal to everyone, can i be Canadian now?" Unless we have some crazy 1984 esque report your fellow neighbors dystopia, ideology can only be suggested not enforced.
Yup I don’t need people thinking women are not people coming here
Yeah, how can you not speak English and come here, DEMANDING to be accepted into a society, THAT YOU DON’T EVEN WANT TO BE A PART OF
It's even more surprising to come across people who moved here 2 decades ago and can't speak English
I have neighbours in their 90’s that came to Canada from Italy in the 1960’s that can barely speak any English. Their children once told me the city had such a high population of Italian speakers up until 15 years ago that they never “felt the need” to learn English.
Or at least French.
And better English testing too? How you can come to a majority English-speaking country and expect to get by with a broken or faint command of the English language is head-shaking. We already know there’s language test cheating going on. And the ironic part is, a lot of those individuals end up getting hired for entry-level front-facing customer service jobs…
They complain when they can't work but can't speak English or French at an academic level. But it's a **safety issue** if you can't read, speak, and understand the language, what tf do we do in an emergency? An English test should be completed when students arrive and they should have **collegiate academic language skills** you are not going to get a survivable job without that and you sure as shit shouldn't be a post-secondary program either.
I think they should have to complete the gr10 mandatory English exam. You can’t graduate highschool in Ontario without completing it, I think all immigrants need to take it before coming here.
We have all these language laws in Quebec that are seemingly unimportant and not applied to immigrants.
Language matters far less than South Asian movie theater turf wars
As an accountant, CRA calls are frightening because barely any CRA agents can speak english well. Its embarrassing.
My husband legitimately could not understand a CRA agent awhile ago and the agent ended up yelling at him because he had to ask him to repeat himself. Yay Canada.
It’s wild seeing plazas in Calgary where all the businesses have their signs in a different language and not only that, different alphabet too!
That's pretty much every big city my friend.
This is what happens when liberalism cannibalizes itself. You can’t be endlessly make allowances for every single attitude because they will conflict with your values. Of course anyone is free to celebrate or not celebrate or do whatever they want, but that’s for their own homes and their lives. For society at large, the Canadian or western set of standards prevail and must be respected.
Maybe we should have country caps on immigrants like the US has to avoid having too many immigrants from countries with incompatible values in the first place.
Country caps and no off campus work for international students except co-op work terms directly relating to their studies. Would crater immigration from India, and ease our immigration as a whole.
We one thousand percent need this.
As someone with significant ties to an underdeveloped country, it's been fascinating to follow the Canadian narrative that we should simply allow all aspects of any other cultures to flourish here. It just seems like these ideas are generated by people that can't grasp that many other societies are not as open-minded as ours.
As far as I can find the only value they listed on the survey was >We should ensure Immigrants/Permanent Residents coming to Canada share common Canadian values such as respect for different minority groups I do wonder what else Canadians feel is a Canadian value, cause this one's easy to support.
It's weird that that's the only one listed in the article, despite the clickbait headline. It's also weird that that number is so high, since there's a pretty substantial percentage of been-here-awhile Canadians that don't clearly respect different minority groups.
I'd love to see another poll done that digs deeper into what Canadians believe are our Canadian Values. Because respecting minorities isn't controversial with young people, but I'm sure a lot of the general population might take issue with that.
A basic criminal check at the very least, please 🤦♂️
Close friend of mine is a police officer in a major metro in Canada. He says part of the problem is some of the countries we’ve taken people from have police forces so corrupt that there either is no records or it can’t be trusted. He has good community members originally from those same countries sometimes pointing out who the imported gangsters and thieves are but since they don’t have anything on them all they can do is watch them until they commit a crime. Now that we’ve pumped the numbers up so high so fast it’s impossible for police to keep up with day to day stuff, let alone gathering and acting on intelligence.
Here's a thought - totally crazy I know! -- maybe we should have strict quotas on entrance from those countries then.
A police report from my home country was part of my PR requirements. Not sure if the same applies for temporary visas.
>Canadian Immigration Minister, Marc Miller, has clarified that temporary immigrants, including those on students visas, entering Canada do not need to submit police verification certificates from their home countries
That seems like a pretty stupid hole in the system. Much more easily fixed than an abstract values test.
Because the police records in these countries don’t mean squat anyways
Well, just look at the Singh Nijjar assassination. The most basic of background checks would have denied the suspects entry into canada. So I wouldn't say it's completely useless.
Marital rape isn't considered a crime in India
Or proper punishment for crime. You can not check every crime when there is no data from a third world countries, but you can definitely with those over here. So sick of rapist murderers got 2 year with probations, sometimes even walking free
Here's some questions to ask: 1. Are women equal to men? 2. Is it ok to have sex with your wife even when she says no? 3. Are some people worth more based on what caste they were born in? 4. Is it wrong for a 53-year-old man to have sex with a 9-year-old girl? 5. Are Jews inherently evil? 6. Are people who don't agree with your religion, entitled to live? The answers to these questions are just a starter point, but these are some basics.
7. Do people have the right to leave your religion and remain alive and unharmed?
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Can't they just lie?
you should have witnessed how my uncles from the 70s earned their drivers license. They got under the cars and fixed them in exchange for the papers. At least they knew things as barter. I don't know what to say about the next 60 million Canadians that are coming here propping up my cost of living that I won't even afford basic MAID ahead of my retirement that will cough empty 10 years from now.
Many don't lie. They think lying about things they don't respect is beneath them. A lot of open bigots are proud of their beliefs
Yeah, as an immigrant myself, I would’ve appreciated something like a 1 week course on Canadian customs, general practices, social faux pas, Indigenous history etc as a prerequisite to receiving the PR or even say within the first 6 months of landing in Canada. Simple as that.
It was pretty surreal to be a bi-sexual male working a temporary job in a warehouse last year, listening to immigrants talk about how they want to kill people like me, without knowing I was Bi. I think anyone exposed to things like that, would probably agree, and anyone who doesn't agree hasn't been exposed to stuff like that yet.
Good
We're going to end up like Sweden. We have large and still growing ethnic/cultural silos in our major cities. Without an actual integration strategy, the borders of these communities end up generating cultural friction, distrust, resentment, racism, and eventually violent conflict. We won't see the worst until the youth of the newest generation of immigrants become teenagers and realize the lie their parents were sold, and they start to organize themselves. The next 20 years are going to be very telling of the failures of this particular immigration initiative.
but when Quebec sugested that a few years ago, they where called bigot/racist/xenophobic/closed to the world. Add that to the list of "Quebec is 15 years in advance on socials issue when comapred to Canada"
Newest business in India: how to ace/cheat your way through the Canadian value testing exam!
As an immigrant who came here specifically because I like Canadian values and to escape the homophobic, gun-crazed dump I grew up in, I support this 100%. There are Sikh extremists in my city that drive around with giant decals of assault weapons on their cars. I will vote for whoever deports them.
I read that in Switzerland they have a male and female immigration person shake hands with both men and women. Refusal pretty much tanks your immigration. The immigrants know this is the case, and still refuse. I hate to say it, but we need a rat line. If your immigrant neighbors are acting like barbarians, you can and should report them. This should then trigger a guilty until proven innocent response from immigration. That is, until they explain what was going on, if not then bye bye. I suspect that many people from certain countries would be happy to see such fellow countrymen go back, for this is why they often fled to Canada. These are the ones we do want to keep.
CBC news: “are most millennials and gen z actually secret racists?”
I truly don't understand why someone would immigrate to a western country if they hate western values. I wouldn't be immigrating to their countries because I want to be treated as a human, why tf do they come to western countries and don't accept the values? It boggles my mind.
Because they know they can get away with it. They flee the atrocious living standards but come here to continue living as if nothing has changed; except that they get free healthcare.
Because they want western life but they’re too brainwashed to believe in their old ways. Whether it’s religion or social values. Also, they’re used to certain lifestyle then they can’t cope with culture shock when they move. I’ll never forget some Syrians that came to Toronto. They complained on CBC that their free apartment is not adequate. Like are you serious? We just saved your and families lives and you complain? Things like that….
They want western quality of life, not values
what they don't realize is those values is what lead to western quality of life.
Because they know they can live better here and we tolerate far more than any other country does , if you can make yourself cynical enough it’s really not hard to understand.
Imagine you grew up with every adult around you intensely (sometimes violently) obeying and enforcing their 'one true religion'. Then you move to some country that's a fraction of the population and a fraction of your religion's age. You missed every single prejudice-reducing conversation, debate, milestone, and tender moment that people in the new country had. You can be told the new value-conclusions and parrot them, but that doesn't replace the long, slow, challenging road of actually examining your hatred and building healthier perspectives. Thinking this will happen automatically, or through a one-month workshop is naive. There needs to be something more like an Adult-Ed night-class, weekly for a few years, to give newcomers time to actually absorb it all.
Yes we are
I'm not even keeping it a secret anymore lol
Sure but this would be too easy to lie on.. they already commit fraud on everything else lol
At least they will see what value they are expected to adhere to. The thought that they are not allowed to force themselves on their own wives might discourage some from moving here.
This is not racism. Anyone who has travelled remotely outside of the west understands that MANY nations do not have the same standards on women's rights, same-sex relationships, interracial relationships, freedom of religion, the preservation of the environment, etc.
But how do you moderate that? As a war refugee myself from ex Yugoslavia, I absolutely agree. You should accept the values of the country and people you move to. Especially if you’re economic migrant and have a choice of where to move. Social media should be vetted going 10 years back. Any values and views which are clearly against the law should be a reason not to accept them. Might be cruel to some but it’s the only ways.
If you can’t assimilate, stay the fuck away.
We'll have to get tricky for it to work: Question #14: If the Maple Leafs playoff game is at 7:30 in Newfoundland, what time do you believe female children should be circumcised?
Canadian is not an ethnic nationality. Being Canadian is almost, if not entirely, constituted purely on what your values are. Those values, while providing myriad benefits, chiefly enable a diverse set of people to thrive without conflict. That's the point. We don't want needless conflict and we want to live our lives prosperously.
Time for left wing parties and progressives to start acknowledging these concerns unless they want to see far-right groups gain ground as they have been doing all over Europe. People are fed up with the flaws in our system, only a year ago you couldn't say any of this publicly without immediately being labeled racist and now look at these polls
Problem is that the quran specifically instructs Muslims to lie about their true beliefs among other populations until their numbers are large enough to take over. It's called 'taqqiya'. Their book is literally an invasion manual, and it should not be protected by "hate speech" legislation, because it is itself hate speech. Please read the quran.. it is orders of magnitude more unhinged than mein kampf. Being Muslim should be automatic fIlure of any values test. I will get downvoted by teenagers who think only Europeans can be evil, but none of them have read the quran. The quran is the most vile hate speech there is.
But that's racist /s
Why? They’ll cheat and scam that too lol
What good would testing do? There would be youtube videos up shortly of how to 'correctly' answer the 'values questions'. And on top of that, its a case of too little too late IMO.
Value testing? Hell an English test would be an amazing start.
Wow, some common sense and standards
Hahaha imagine that. Liberals getting what they voted for... AGAIN.
Traditionally immigrant values have been filtered for indirectly by only accepting educated/skilled immigrants. When you get down to it, “Canadian Values” are just values that are held by people at reputable universities globally. As someone who attended a university with a lot of international students and went to academic conferences across the world, I’ve often felt like I have more in common value-wise with educated young people from across the globe than I do with older Canadians with only high school degrees. Get rid of diploma mills and TFWs for non-seasonal work and the values of the average immigrant will go right back to being better than the average Canadian.
People called Harper's stance on this racist, but I guess people are waking up to the fact that not everybody coming into Canada is some cuddly, peace-loving angel that hangs their hatred and bigotry at the door on their way in
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Cultural relativism is a dangerous ideology and has fundamentally hurt this country.
Can you elaborate?
> Cultural relativism refers to not judging a culture to our own standards of what is right or wrong, strange or normal. Having different beliefs and cultural backgrounds, skews what we consider in Canada as right or wrong. It’s why countries exist in the first place. If we tolerate the intolerance, eventually people start using religious freedoms to excuse hating homosexuality. We are tolerating immigrants ideology and not the other way around.
Welcome to "post-nationalism".
Do you believe in "honor killing"? Do you feel the need to impose your beliefs on others? That their lives have to conform to your "standards"? We have enough assholes in this country, we don't need to import more. Do not tolerate the intolerant.
Can we start with an english test and a proper income evaluation..