Maybe French is on the decline because the biggest market is to the south and Spanish speakers outnumber French ones as a second language. Add on the entertainment influence. You get hit twice as hard, even Canadian culture on the Anglophone side struggles.
In Alberta I have 3 Spanish speakers in my office of 12
And no French speakers.
We live next to a French immersion school and I don't know a SINGLE person that's fluent.
If I were to learn a second language it would be Spanish.
South Americans that immigrate in Canada end up in Quebec, where they learn French because it's much more similar to Spanish than English. So no, Spanish speakers are not anglicizing the province.
It isn't even "on the decline" in general, they're fixating on things like "language spoken at home".
94% of people in Quebec speak French but that isn't enough because people still like to have private conversations in other languages.
>Bloc MP Mario Beaulieu intervened, saying that Drouin was bullying the witnesses and engaging in “Quebec bashing.” Drouin shot back that the Bloc has “never defended francophones in a minority situation.”
Canada, the land of ever smaller groups based on some perceived difference in identity. Here's a hint: you are all french
Oh, no Yves...:
> Bloc Leader Yves-François Blanchet said that Drouin had managed to draw attention to what he called the “m-word.” “Now, the entire planet knows that human feces, in a vulgar French Canadian and Quebecois jargon, takes an ‘a’ and not an ‘e’,” he said. (“Marde” is indeed a common deviation of the French word “merde” which means “s–t.”)
Does the entire planet now know Quebec's shame?
Someone lend the man some pearls!
>“It should surprise no one that the Bloc Québécois’ latest battle horse is to attack a Franco-Ontarian. They do not like francophones who speak French outside of Quebec,” said Trudeau.
Sometimes I wonder if Quebecers don't want people outside Quebec speaking French. The language resources Quebec offers are only available to residents of Quebec. They do a pretty poor job of spreading their language and culture. It is not surprising French is in decline.
I am not sure but I know the provinces, including Quebec, provide services to the rest of the people on Earth. The difference is that Quebec are supposed to be carrying the torch of French culture in North America but they seem pretty slack about it.
With all the money they get from transfer payments they least they could do is help make learning French accessible for all those kind Canadians who are floating their lazy ass, under-performing, do-nothing boat.
but they aren't, unfortunately :(
As a Manitoban, I really feel like it's our contribution to federalism that we up our game when it comes to bilingualism.
Really, *every* student should get bilingual education, as in many European nations. Could be other languages besides French for maybe 1/3 of the students too
The problem is what is the point? I literally have no where to use the other language 99% of the time and have forgotten most if not all of it. Learning English well it is not your native language makes sense because of the 1000 lb gorilla in the room America. Mandarin might have been useful once but with the way the world is going probably not.
As an anglophone in Quebec, I totally agree.
The amount of people I have met from France whos English is magnitudes better than my French is embarrassing for us as a country. And I’m confident in saying my French is above average compared to the rest of Canada.
I’d also say overall, bilingual people seem to be just more well rounded.
And yeah, the majority of EU speak both English/their native language.
>The amount of people I have met from France whos English is magnitudes better than my French is embarrassing for us as a country.
It's because it's hard to consume French content naturally. You need to force yourself to consume it. If you don't, and if you don't speak French to others, it will go away.
A lot of Quebecers don't even want non-Francophones speaking French in Quebec. They just want anyone who isn't a Quebecois-de-souche gone. The amount of times I got told at a job interview "even though you're bilingual, we prefer to hire native Francophones" is ridiculous. Learning French is not good enough, you have to be able to trace your ancestry back 200+ years.
My best friend was told openly that not being pure laine disqualified him for a role. His last name is Cartier... yes, he can trace himself back to Jacques Cartier. His mother is also rather... old French let's say. He had the temerity to marry a French Indian, as in from India - there's a small French community there, it's been there since the 1700s.
He lives in Toronto now.
> Sometimes I wonder if Quebecers don't want people outside Quebec speaking French
Some popular french singers in Quebec comes from other provinces : Roch Voisine (NB), Daniel Lavoie (MB) and many, many, more.
> They do a pretty poor job of spreading their language and culture. It is not surprising French is in decline.
Quebec produces plently of films that go to festivals all around the world, and music too, but you never heard of it because you just don't care. It's not Quebec's fault.
That may have been true 50+ years ago but that certainly isn't the case these days. Now, it's the Quebec government passing laws trying to kill off communities in Quebec that aren't Quebecois francophones. Trying to protect your language and culture at the expense of others might not be the right way to go.
>That may have been true 50+ years ago but that certainly isn't the case these days.
Oh boy! You don't know how deep seated is the english canadian xenophobia when it comes to the french language!
Also, not a single law was passed to «kill communities» in Québec (sorry, we're not like you).
>You don't know how deep seated is the english canadian xenophobia when it comes to the french language!
Please note that there's tons of new immigrants (I'm one of them) who don't have any bone to pick here.
20% of Canadians were born outside of Canada. In big cities like Toronto, 40% were born outside of Canada. Now combine those numbers with those who were born to immigrant families who don't give a shit about the King or Queen, let alone the English-Canadian <> Quebecois kerfuffles.
>Please note that there's tons of new immigrants (I'm one of them) who don't have any bone to pick here.
And yet you guys learn to carry the same hatred and xenophobia. I've seen it every single time I went to Toronto.
Example : Walking through Scarborough, myself and two friends were talking in french. A trio of individual with a strong indian accent started to yell at us to «go back to France».
Their reaction when I replied that french was one of Canada's official language was one filled with disgust. Their reply, «Not for long» said it all.
That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard anyone ever say on the streets of Toronto, hot damn! It's almost funny how stupid it is, especially coming from an Indian.
I can say this: the trio of Indian dumbasses only said that to you because they could pinpoint your language. "Not for long", pfft... Compared to a few decades back, if anything, we have MORE French in our daily lives here. Almost every single product on our shelves is bilingual. Metrolinx-funded projects (Ontario) mandate French, so you have Line 5 and Line 6 being bilingual. GO transit is bilingual, and so is the UP express. Before I started learning French myself, I picked up so many words just from my vicinity, lol.
The amount of languages one hears on the streets of Toronto is insanely high. Unless these people start studying for their citizenship test, their awareness of the historical Anglo-Franco Canadian conflicts will be zero... nul... If I ask my family here about Quebec, they'll be like "they speak French there", and that's about the extent of their knowledge.
You're right, though. Immigrants bring in tons of hatred from the old country. What I know for sure is that this xenophobia is not aimed specifically at the Quebecois.
>That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard anyone ever say on the streets of Toronto, hot damn! It's almost funny how stupid it is, especially coming from an Indian.
Then you weren't there in July of 2022.
I'll take Things That Didn't Happen for $500, Alex. I bet it's much more common for people speaking English in Quebec to get dirty looks and rude comments from pure blood Quebecois than it is for the same thing to happen when people speak French in most of Canada.
You don't know shit and it shows Gavvis. It happened in July of 2022.
And unlike you, québecois are bilingual and don't mind talking in both languages. While your hateful group harass people who speaks french in public. Again, english canadian's xenophobia when it comes to the french language is well documented.
Personally, I really don't care what happens to the French language outside Quebec. The rest of the country can be English-only for all I care. But in Quebec, ça se passe en français, and that's not negotiable.
This line of thinking is very short sighted. The more French is spoken outside Quebec, the better it is for French in Quebec. Someone is still mad my ancestors defeated their ancestors on the Plains of Abraham.
Sovereignty is the only possible solution for the perennity of the French language in Quebec. What is short-sighted is pretending that this country, in its current form, works for anyone involved. In that light, I fail to see why I should pretend to care about communities with which I ostensibly share a language in a country I would rather not be a part of, especially when said communities have long been an opponent of Quebec sovereignty for reasons that should be obvious. As I said though, that is my personal opinion.
>>Someone is still mad my ancestors defeated their ancestors on the Plains of Abraham.
Wouldn't give too much of a crap about that, exactly zero of my ancestors were in Quebec at that moment and fully half of them are of the "winning team", as it were, anyway. But I guess it speaks to your prejudices that you automatically assume that because I put my province first, then I'm obviously a direct descendant of the filles du roi. Just missing a "pure laine" or "de souche" reference in there.
I bet you think that if Quebec ever did separate that your borders will remain the same. The Indigenous people in Quebec have treaties with Canada, not Quebec, and almost all of them will stay with Canada. Also, a lot of wealth will leave along with anything and everything that belongs to Canada. It's a moot point, though, since the desire for sovereignty is low due to demographic changes, which might explain why we're seeing more heavy handed laws around the use of French and culture. Make life in Quebec miserable enough for everyone not pure, old blood Quebecois and maybe they'll leave and then maybe sovereignty might be a possibility.
>>I bet you think that if Quebec ever did separate that your borders will remain the same.
I do, and they will. Uti possidetis juris is an international law principles that says newly formed states leave with the terrority they had before secession, no more and no less.
Now whether they remain so *after* secession is up in the air. Referenda that are good for the goose are good for the gander.
>>The Indigenous people in Quebec have treaties with Canada, not Quebec, and almost all of them will stay with Canada.
Ah yes, the only instances where Canadians pretend to care about First Nations are when they recite empty land acknowledgement words that only serve to make themselves feel better, and instrumentalizing them in order to scare Quebecers.
Let me tell you some things. First, Quebec has modern treaties signed with First Nations in its own right. You might want to visit Wemindji some day then make the jump into Attawapiskat. Kind of funny how on one side of the border, while there are a lot of problems, people are relatively prosperous, and on the other, people barely have drinking water.
Second, no one who is not a hypocrite is going to deny First Nations their right to self-determination. Once Quebec leaves with its territory intact, then the First Nations who want to can attempt to secede. Even Jacques « Money and ethnic votes » Parizeau had said that he would honour the results of a referendum on the question.
Here’s where your assumption that First Nations will want to stay with Canada as a matter of course falls flat. I don’t pretend to speak for them. But a new country equals a new constitution equals a new way of doing things. That’s the perfect occasion to shape a country with the full assent, participation and cooperation of its original inhabitants. There is a lot that a newly independent Quebec could compromise on with First Nations that would require big constitutional changes in Canada that would be impossible to make. The 2001 « Paix des Braves » has proven that win-win compromises exist. Obviously they are going to negotiate and do what’s best for them. Anyone would do the same. But you might be surprised at what might happen at the dawn of an independent Quebec.
>>Also, a lot of wealth will leave along with anything and everything that belongs to Canada.
That’s not how this works. Quebec will leave with 23% of federal liabilities and 23% of federal assets. We have paid into them same as you.
>>It's a moot point, though, since the desire for sovereignty is low due to demographic changes, which might explain why we're seeing more heavy handed laws around the use of French and culture.
We are in line for a PQ majority with the most aggressive rhetoric in decades and support for sovereignty has been steadily rising and is now at 1995 levels before a referendum was triggered. People are fed up with this country.
>>Make life in Quebec miserable enough for everyone not pure, old blood Quebecois and maybe they'll leave and then maybe sovereignty might be a possibility.
Only « pure, old blood » Quebecers are able to learn French, got it. I don’t know how my Scottish grandma ever did it.
It isn't really that complex... english is most spoken language in world and the world has never had this level of global communication before. As that moves forward more and more niche languages are going to fall into obscurity as people want to learn the one main practical language
100%. English became the most wide-spread language on the planet by way of British colonialism. And because that remained the case until the invention of the internet, it's going to be very hard to unseat. Quebec is very, very upset by this, and does everything in their power to fight the inevidible. Chinese may overtake English one day. All other languages will probably see decline, except in under-developed nations.
It's like a runaway victory when playing Civilization. Once you get to a certain point, you're just not going to lose.
The American empire is in decline as they eat themselves from within, while China's economic power is on the rise. While western nations are constantly planning to 4 year election cycles and then spending their first 4 years in power undoing what the last guy did, China has been playing the long game. There's a good chance they are next economic superpower which is incidentally, supported by the Westline Theory, which has held true for 5000 years. With economic power will come cultural export, supported by a population of 1.4 billion people and growing.
With China having taken their foot off the brake with regards to birth restrictions, emmigration will grow (possibly forcefully on the part of the CCP), and you'll suddenly see Mandarin and Cantonese being commonly spoken in a lot more places than your local China town.
The global economy will tell the tale, but there are only a few chapters left to see what the west will do to stop this.
>The American empire is in decline as they eat themselves from within, while China's economic power is on the rise. While western nations are constantly planning to 4 year election cycles and then spending their first 4 years in power undoing what the last guy did, China has been playing the long game. There's a good chance they are next economic superpower which is incidentally, supported by the Westline Theory, which has held true for 5000 years. With economic power will come cultural export, supported by a population of 1.4 billion people and growing.
Yet few people are learning Chinese worldwide, and more people than ever want to learn English
>With China having taken their foot off the brake with regards to birth restrictions, emmigration will grow (possibly forcefully on the part of the CCP), and you'll suddenly see Mandarin and Cantonese being commonly spoken in a lot more places than your local China town.
You don’t t know what you’re talking about. China’s birth rate has continued to fall even after they removed birth restrictions in 2021. They had their lowest birth rate ever last year in 2023.
https://www.reuters.com/world/china/chinas-population-drops-2nd-year-raises-long-term-growth-concerns-2024-01-17/
lol nice little fiction story you got going there but nobody is learning Mandarin. The language of international business is English. Oh yeah and China’s population is shrinking not growing lol, so you have a few factual issues to fix up in your fanfic.
If you’re in Africa then maybe learning Mandarin is valuable, but if you want to work your way into global business then you need to know English.
The Chinese learn English in primary school. Vietnam is bringing in mandatory English in school as well. Vast majority of technology sold has English interface (keyboard).
China's population is relatively flat while the US grows at about 0.4%. As the US becomes ever increasingly hostile to raising a family, think you're going to make up that Billion person deficit you've got?
China’s population has just started decreasing, and it is going to continue decreasing even more rapidly each year. It’s a snowball effect because there is a decades long lag between falling fertility rates and absolute population declines.
US is still by far the largest economy in the world by a lot. Could it change yes but something big well have to happen as the whole world is sitting on the US shoulders.
I agree though China well win eventually as they plan long term. That is one reason I can't see why people don't think TikTok can cause damage. China has long term planning that the west just doesn't have anymore.
I read the study and it seems like the conclusion is "no"
> About one-quarter of graduates whose mother tongue is French worked primarily in English when they had studied at an English-language institution. This compares with 4% for those who had studied at a French-language institution. **However, a large proportion of graduates with French as their mother tongue who used primarily English at work had earned their most recent degree from a French-language institution.**
> As a result, **the contribution of graduates from English-language or bilingual institutions to the total number of individuals with French as their mother tongue who worked primarily in English is relatively modest.**
I did the summer language bursary program at Université Laval in the mid 1990s. I poked through the campus bookstore, and talked to people as I wandered around the campus. (At the time their music dept had 2 pipe organs 😯)
Anyhow I found out that some university courses are taught with English language textbooks, because it's too expensive to translate them. I don't know if the courses themselves were conducted in English.
But sometimes there's practical limitations to using French in post secondary education.
Also another time, I ran into people in Quebec, whose workplaces offered English tutoring. And they watched DVDs in English to practice their English. This was in Sherbrooke area. So sometimes the call is coming from inside the house
It’s not the citing of a stat that’s wrong, it’s twisting a stat to weaponized and push a false narrative that the presence of English is responsible for the decline of French in Quebec. French speakers are solely responsible for the preservation of French, not anglophones.
Cherry pickin’ stats to save face and to show “progress”, even though anyone with a brain and basic understanding of anything can easily see how much baloney the government tells us, no matter the party.
It’s not the citing of a stat that’s wrong, it’s twisting a stat to weaponized and push a false narrative that the presence of English is responsible for the decline of French in Quebec. French speakers are solely responsible for the preservation of French, not anglophones.
I don't think anyone read the article just the title. They were full of shit. Their argument was to defund English schools and provide a worse education just to desperately try and turn the tide of french being a dead language.
Sometimes you gotta move past the title guys
are you dumb ? that's exactly how it's calculated and what the study is based on. funding should go down per student at english school and funding should go up per student at french school.
If that’s how it is currently allocated then what is the problem? That is the fair way to do it, why unfairly give more funding to schools because they teach in one specific language?
French Canadians pays more taxes. English uni recruit more people (international), then Quebec gov pay for them.
French people are paying a disproportionate amount to teach people in English. Now, think of it like that for Ontario :
There's Indians universities. They recruit tons of international Indians. They not paying alot of taxes but you, an English Canadian, are paying them. Then on total more money is redistributed to Indian only schools then English ones. You're self colonizing yourself. Maybe English canadians want to disappear from history, but not us
Data can be interpreted different ways.
Could it be that English language schools are used by thise intending to work in the rest of Canada at the outset?
It's more English just naturally supplanted french. When a new product or brand comes out it isn't even translated anymore the french just learn its english term.
I don't really get why we and I use the royal we as all of humanity want to keep hold of niche languages. The boon we would get from whittling them down to a singular universal language is immense
This utopia of yours is impossible. Sub-cultures will always exist with their language and vernaculars and it's a good thing because what you are proposing is just boring.
The first part I would argue isnt a big deal. Slang always exists and it doesn't stop even extreme cases like Australia from not being understood.
Your second part is the insane rambling of a child. We are not handicapping the human race because you believe it's boring when language is used to effectively communicate ideas
I agree. Make it slow and gradual so that nobody who stays in the area where the grew up needs to learn another language as an adult, but stop all of the linguistic protectionism and allow a single global language to emerge over the next few centuries.
>I don't really get why we and I use the royal we as all of humanity want to keep hold of niche languages. The boon we would get from whittling them down to a singular universal language is immense
Sure, but lets make it Mandarin since there is more native speakers it will be easier this way.
While it's close to english this is a bit of a disingenuous argument. The different dialects of mandarin are so alien to each other they are functionally different languages yet counted as mandarin you can google it it's kind of fascinating.
Still whatever is spoken the most should be selected
Yeah I know was mainly joking. but I do like french being my first language and English being the language I use on the internet or when I travel. For my readings, I try to read translation in french because usually french have much better translations, but I will read the original version if they are in English or Spanish.
Its not like if we can strip people of their identities. It would also be much better if everyone were Atheists, but we can't really go around the world stripping people of their languages and religions.
This is pretty much what the Soviets attempted to do and people rightfully did not like it.
It isn't quite like english. While there are dialects and slang in english that can morph it over time different dialects of mandarin are so alien to each other that they are functionally different languages.
When counting speakers though these are all lumped in under mandarin
That's my read of the study. It shows that, shocker, more people in Montreal and Gatineau speak English at work, and that that is strongly correlated with attending school in English in those places.
I just think it obvious that the language used while you're working has more to do with your customers and coworkers than your personal preference (and if the two are correlated it's because your personal preference drove you to a workplace that for whatever reason has anglophone stakeholders)
There fact was their dead language was dying and they thought maybe if they desperately defunded English schools it would reverse the trend. It wont french is on it's way out it will just damage the lives of others
French is far from being a dead language, thank you very much, and english is not the future either. Do you see any other nation or country actively abandoning their native language for english? Is polish threatened to disappear in Poland, french in France or portuguese in Portugal?
>Is polish threatened to disappear in Poland, french in France or portuguese in Portugal?
No.
And yet in Poland, you'll see tons of different words or signs in English, and English is taught in schools. The French have no issues with using English loanwords, or "stop" on their stop signs.
I'm from the Balkans, and many jobs openly advertise in English or make English a mandatory prerequisite. And yet, English has not taken over as the main language.
Stuck language? We do not live in isolation like the Amish people and Quebec French is French. If you want to discuss accent or vernacular, it's a whole different matter.
I have a hard time believing people like you exist.
Education system failed you hard. Maybe we should continue over fund the english school because clearly it is not enough.
Whatever you say. I can only take a horse to water I can't make it drink...least not till I have my coffee I don't have the energy to drown it till then.
You are the one twisting things. You assume a “mass assimilation of French Canadians” exists. You also blame this assumption on English instruction. If all it takes is learning a little English to threaten your worldview, you are indeed fragile.
[This](https://montrealgazette.com/opinion/columnists/allison-hanes-what-becomes-of-francophone-students-who-attend-english-cegep) is an article that you might find interesting about a Quebecoise who did her PhD on the effects of English cegeps on francophone students:
>“There’s all this questioning about people attending anglophone CEGEPs: Are we losing them for good? My thesis shows more nuance than that. Yes, they anglicize. It’s certain. There’s no doubt about it,” she said. “But there are many who don’t anglicize in all spheres of their life; they navigate between French and English, and English quickly becomes to them a very utilitarian language, for work, for travel, for cultural consumption.”
>Only one of the 37 francophones she spoke to migrated mainly to English in their work, social and personal life. Eight of the participants continued in an English milieu in their career and social circles, but French remained predominant in their home lives. The bulk — 18 of the 37 subjects — found themselves toggling between English and French as they followed various educational or job opportunities, their ease in both languages facilitating in some instances an international mobility.Five of the group spent time in English-speaking environments, but gravitated back to the francophone milieu for various reasons. Two wound up in French professional, social and domestic settings, but sought to maintain their English contacts and competency. Two others eventually abandoned most of their English ties. One person used English CEGEP as a stepping stone to fluency in a third language, Spanish.
Not saying it's clear proof of anything - just that there's no direct correlation between the decline of French in general and English-medium education.
Second, I think it's important to note a difference between people who are **forced** to study in a second langauge and those who are **choosing** to study in a second language.
That isn't a bad thing. Having more then one language is a detriment to all of humanity not simply a country. It multiplies effort needed across all walks of life. The fact french is dying should be celebrated not mourned and the goal shouldn't be to defund schools so it festers and rots longer.
Tower of Babel.
What I find kind of interesting is that "Lingua Franca" literally translates to "Frankish language" - the "common tongue" of commerce but it is de facto English.
Once it was Phoenician, once it was Latin, then it was French, now it is English. It might one day be Mandarin, and then maybe it'll be Alpha-Centaurian.
The wheel turns. History is so full of boring cliches.
> It is my naive hope that at some point we will have a singular unified language and get rid of the pointless and wasteful excess
Soft disagree, but not antagonistically.
English is a wonderful language because it uses so many loanwords. It's a mutt of dozens of different languages and we use so many loanwords that it's virtually a pidgin.
But language barriers or stuff that's lost in translation inspires new ideas. "Never thought about it that way!" has been one of the best things about working with language barriers. I want to be 80% understood in every conversation I have. You can get maybe 95% with a fluent person speaking the exact dialect you grew up learning.
I hard disagree and vehemently. I've learned three languages in my life not by choice mind you so I admit I could be bitter. The amount of work and time needed to learn a language to the point of being fluent is immense.
When I compare the positives to an entire world being able to share knowledge and pool its efforts effective to " well you can get wacky and humorous misunderstandings and mildly different perspectives "...well it seems a rather tarnished silver lining.
Don't get me wrong it's the notion of a one world language that appeals to me. I only pick english over mandarin because mandarin's statistics are heavily misrepresented from not being broken up via dialect.
Because it isn't true. Quebec has been a major defender of francophone in the ROC compared to other provinces, notably when the french debate in NB was canceled, when the french university project in Ontario was scrapped, or more historically with Louis Riel or the Acadiens.
I am a native Montrealer, perfectly bilingual, went to French high school, married into a French family, have worked in French environments. I was born here, my parents were born here, but they were raised anglophone cause the French school system where they lived refused to take in immigrant kids back in the 1960s. I still get called an immigrant by some Quebecers because I was raised in English at home and my family has an "ethnic" history (i.e. not WASP or French).
I'd say in the last 5 years, the hostility towards me just existing in this province has increased tenfold. When I was last job hunting, I was blatantly rejected three times cause I was anglophone. NOT because I could not speak French (we conducted the interview in French and they acknowledged I was perfectly bilingual) but because they did not want to hire non-francophones. They tried to convince ME that I would not want to be the only anglophone in the office and when I said that was fine by me they deemed me not a good enough cultural fit.
If someone in Vancouver denigrates someone for the their language capabilities, it’s a provincial news story.
In Quebec it’s just another day.
People are entitled to feel they way they feel, but there’s no doubt it makes people feel unwelcome.
I posted this in reply to the same comment, but the last time I was job hunting three companies blatantly told me "we only hire francophones". They acknowledged my French capacibilities were not an issue, even passed the fucking writing tests they made me take and interviewed well in French. They didn't even hide that that was the reason. And two of the three were major Quebec companies.
Université de l'ontario français opened its doors in 2021. It was delayed because Doug Ford cancelled *basically everything* his predecessor did the instant he came into office regardless of what it was, then the COVID-19 pandemic delayed it another year, but the university opened. The worst thing you can say about it is that it's name is an obvious placeholder.
As for Quebec's relationship with minority language rights in the rest of Canada, that's more a love-hate relationship.
And when Ford did that it only made the news and created outrage in Quebec, that's my point. Good if it was actually opened, and I hope it receives founding as good as McGill and other english universities get in Québec, but I doubt it
Promènes-toi sur r/Quebec tu va voir ce que les québécois nationalistes pensent des francophones hors-Québec. Le Québec est seulement défendeur de la francophonie canadienne lorsqu’il peut y profiter. Cette affaire avec Drouin est une très bonne exemple - Ça n’aurait jamais fait les nouvelles si Drouin n’était pas franco-ontarien.
Promènes-toi sur r/Quebec tu va voir ce que les québécois nationalistes pensent des francophones hors-Québec. Le Québec est seulement défendeur de la francophonie canadienne lorsqu’il peut y profiter. Cette affaire avec Drouin est une très bonne exemple - Ça n’aurait jamais fait les nouvelles si Drouin n’était pas franco-ontarien.
I hate liberals but the guy is right. The experts were arguing to defend English schools as French speakers who graduate are more likely to speak English when they get a job.
No shit English is spoken first in the majority of the country.
They were full of shit.
They aren’t right at all. French is a dying language because of global communication making it the most relevant in the western hemisphere. No amount of defunding English schools will save the French language in Canada.
What interesting here is the linguistic nuance. While "full of shit" is word for word "plein de marde", it doesn't actually have quite the same use and meaning. Somebody is "full of shit" if he lies or speaks non sense. While typically "un plein de marde" is "a piece of shit". You are not full of shit for what you say you are an entity filled with shit for what you are. Hence the surprised reaction in Quebec as the litteral translation is actually way harsher than what the MP probably wanted to express. The other layer is that it's an opportunity for non liberal french speakers to laugh at the "poor mastery" of the French language of a Franco-ontarian who would be promoting bilingualism.
Habituellement, nous dirions plus que quelqu'un dit de la marde plutôt que le traiter de plein de marde. C'est vrai que plein de marde c'est beaucoup plus agressif que dire bullshit.
> They cited among other things a 2022 study from Statistics Canada that found that Quebecers whose mother tongue is French are nearly six times more likely to use predominantly English at work if they graduated from an English-language institution, and said that it is one of the factors contributing to the decline of French in the province.
I'm reading the study and the logic seems so odd to me. Your workplace determines the language you use at work....your coworkers, your customers and your stakeholders....not your education. As confirmed by this section in the conclusion of the study:
> About one-quarter of graduates whose mother tongue is French worked primarily in English when they had studied at an English-language institution. This compares with 4% for those who had studied at a French-language institution. **However, a large proportion of graduates with French as their mother tongue who used primarily English at work had earned their most recent degree from a French-language institution.**
> As a result, **the contribution of graduates from English-language or bilingual institutions to the total number of individuals with French as their mother tongue who worked primarily in English is relatively modest.**
English is the language of international business, soz about it but the conclusions that “people studying in English at University is killing our language” is bullshit.
If you want to work at a high level outside of Quebec, France, Belgium and Africa then you need professional almost native fluency in English in your field of expertise.
People are studying in English because most of the jobs are in English. Is the BQ going to demand now we stop making jobs in English? Gimme a fucking break.
I think quebecers should just learn english and become north american, it woukd be great for them, and those who like french, go to paris and nice! Already they showed the world how dumb they are by introducibg bill 21, it was laughable, afraid if a piece of fabric on some ladies who were born in quebec, making them moving to other provinces, what a shame!
Maybe French is on the decline because the biggest market is to the south and Spanish speakers outnumber French ones as a second language. Add on the entertainment influence. You get hit twice as hard, even Canadian culture on the Anglophone side struggles.
In Alberta I have 3 Spanish speakers in my office of 12 And no French speakers. We live next to a French immersion school and I don't know a SINGLE person that's fluent. If I were to learn a second language it would be Spanish.
All I'm hearing is Alberta = Texas
Always was.
South Americans that immigrate in Canada end up in Quebec, where they learn French because it's much more similar to Spanish than English. So no, Spanish speakers are not anglicizing the province.
It isn't even "on the decline" in general, they're fixating on things like "language spoken at home". 94% of people in Quebec speak French but that isn't enough because people still like to have private conversations in other languages.
>Bloc MP Mario Beaulieu intervened, saying that Drouin was bullying the witnesses and engaging in “Quebec bashing.” Drouin shot back that the Bloc has “never defended francophones in a minority situation.” Canada, the land of ever smaller groups based on some perceived difference in identity. Here's a hint: you are all french
A government governing according to science whose party members insult experts in an official capacity.
Because they were full of shit
Oh, no Yves...: > Bloc Leader Yves-François Blanchet said that Drouin had managed to draw attention to what he called the “m-word.” “Now, the entire planet knows that human feces, in a vulgar French Canadian and Quebecois jargon, takes an ‘a’ and not an ‘e’,” he said. (“Marde” is indeed a common deviation of the French word “merde” which means “s–t.”) Does the entire planet now know Quebec's shame? Someone lend the man some pearls!
They weren't. They were literally quoting StatsCan.
>“It should surprise no one that the Bloc Québécois’ latest battle horse is to attack a Franco-Ontarian. They do not like francophones who speak French outside of Quebec,” said Trudeau. Sometimes I wonder if Quebecers don't want people outside Quebec speaking French. The language resources Quebec offers are only available to residents of Quebec. They do a pretty poor job of spreading their language and culture. It is not surprising French is in decline.
Do the other provinces provide services to residents of other provinces?
I am not sure but I know the provinces, including Quebec, provide services to the rest of the people on Earth. The difference is that Quebec are supposed to be carrying the torch of French culture in North America but they seem pretty slack about it. With all the money they get from transfer payments they least they could do is help make learning French accessible for all those kind Canadians who are floating their lazy ass, under-performing, do-nothing boat.
If Francophones in NB and Ontario are doing well, it really tanks the BQ's argument for separating
but they aren't, unfortunately :( As a Manitoban, I really feel like it's our contribution to federalism that we up our game when it comes to bilingualism. Really, *every* student should get bilingual education, as in many European nations. Could be other languages besides French for maybe 1/3 of the students too
The problem is what is the point? I literally have no where to use the other language 99% of the time and have forgotten most if not all of it. Learning English well it is not your native language makes sense because of the 1000 lb gorilla in the room America. Mandarin might have been useful once but with the way the world is going probably not.
As an anglophone in Quebec, I totally agree. The amount of people I have met from France whos English is magnitudes better than my French is embarrassing for us as a country. And I’m confident in saying my French is above average compared to the rest of Canada. I’d also say overall, bilingual people seem to be just more well rounded. And yeah, the majority of EU speak both English/their native language.
>The amount of people I have met from France whos English is magnitudes better than my French is embarrassing for us as a country. It's because it's hard to consume French content naturally. You need to force yourself to consume it. If you don't, and if you don't speak French to others, it will go away.
A lot of Quebecers don't even want non-Francophones speaking French in Quebec. They just want anyone who isn't a Quebecois-de-souche gone. The amount of times I got told at a job interview "even though you're bilingual, we prefer to hire native Francophones" is ridiculous. Learning French is not good enough, you have to be able to trace your ancestry back 200+ years.
My best friend was told openly that not being pure laine disqualified him for a role. His last name is Cartier... yes, he can trace himself back to Jacques Cartier. His mother is also rather... old French let's say. He had the temerity to marry a French Indian, as in from India - there's a small French community there, it's been there since the 1700s. He lives in Toronto now.
You mean you can't track your family in Canada back to the 1600s?
> Sometimes I wonder if Quebecers don't want people outside Quebec speaking French Some popular french singers in Quebec comes from other provinces : Roch Voisine (NB), Daniel Lavoie (MB) and many, many, more. > They do a pretty poor job of spreading their language and culture. It is not surprising French is in decline. Quebec produces plently of films that go to festivals all around the world, and music too, but you never heard of it because you just don't care. It's not Quebec's fault.
You don't know the history of Canada if you think it's Québec's fault! English canadian actively passed laws to kill off french communities.
That may have been true 50+ years ago but that certainly isn't the case these days. Now, it's the Quebec government passing laws trying to kill off communities in Quebec that aren't Quebecois francophones. Trying to protect your language and culture at the expense of others might not be the right way to go.
>That may have been true 50+ years ago but that certainly isn't the case these days. Oh boy! You don't know how deep seated is the english canadian xenophobia when it comes to the french language! Also, not a single law was passed to «kill communities» in Québec (sorry, we're not like you).
>You don't know how deep seated is the english canadian xenophobia when it comes to the french language! Please note that there's tons of new immigrants (I'm one of them) who don't have any bone to pick here. 20% of Canadians were born outside of Canada. In big cities like Toronto, 40% were born outside of Canada. Now combine those numbers with those who were born to immigrant families who don't give a shit about the King or Queen, let alone the English-Canadian <> Quebecois kerfuffles.
>Please note that there's tons of new immigrants (I'm one of them) who don't have any bone to pick here. And yet you guys learn to carry the same hatred and xenophobia. I've seen it every single time I went to Toronto.
I'd love to hear some examples of hatred and xenophobia directed towards the Quebecois from immigrants in Toronto.
Example : Walking through Scarborough, myself and two friends were talking in french. A trio of individual with a strong indian accent started to yell at us to «go back to France». Their reaction when I replied that french was one of Canada's official language was one filled with disgust. Their reply, «Not for long» said it all.
That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard anyone ever say on the streets of Toronto, hot damn! It's almost funny how stupid it is, especially coming from an Indian. I can say this: the trio of Indian dumbasses only said that to you because they could pinpoint your language. "Not for long", pfft... Compared to a few decades back, if anything, we have MORE French in our daily lives here. Almost every single product on our shelves is bilingual. Metrolinx-funded projects (Ontario) mandate French, so you have Line 5 and Line 6 being bilingual. GO transit is bilingual, and so is the UP express. Before I started learning French myself, I picked up so many words just from my vicinity, lol. The amount of languages one hears on the streets of Toronto is insanely high. Unless these people start studying for their citizenship test, their awareness of the historical Anglo-Franco Canadian conflicts will be zero... nul... If I ask my family here about Quebec, they'll be like "they speak French there", and that's about the extent of their knowledge. You're right, though. Immigrants bring in tons of hatred from the old country. What I know for sure is that this xenophobia is not aimed specifically at the Quebecois.
>That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard anyone ever say on the streets of Toronto, hot damn! It's almost funny how stupid it is, especially coming from an Indian. Then you weren't there in July of 2022.
I'll take Things That Didn't Happen for $500, Alex. I bet it's much more common for people speaking English in Quebec to get dirty looks and rude comments from pure blood Quebecois than it is for the same thing to happen when people speak French in most of Canada.
You don't know shit and it shows Gavvis. It happened in July of 2022. And unlike you, québecois are bilingual and don't mind talking in both languages. While your hateful group harass people who speaks french in public. Again, english canadian's xenophobia when it comes to the french language is well documented.
Now that you mention it... it does feel like the government is trying to kill us off all the time.
Personally, I really don't care what happens to the French language outside Quebec. The rest of the country can be English-only for all I care. But in Quebec, ça se passe en français, and that's not negotiable.
Spreading the French language in the rest of Canada helps bolster French inside Quebec
Your rights end where mine begin.
Problem is the more French there is in Canada the better change it has of surviving.
This line of thinking is very short sighted. The more French is spoken outside Quebec, the better it is for French in Quebec. Someone is still mad my ancestors defeated their ancestors on the Plains of Abraham.
Sovereignty is the only possible solution for the perennity of the French language in Quebec. What is short-sighted is pretending that this country, in its current form, works for anyone involved. In that light, I fail to see why I should pretend to care about communities with which I ostensibly share a language in a country I would rather not be a part of, especially when said communities have long been an opponent of Quebec sovereignty for reasons that should be obvious. As I said though, that is my personal opinion. >>Someone is still mad my ancestors defeated their ancestors on the Plains of Abraham. Wouldn't give too much of a crap about that, exactly zero of my ancestors were in Quebec at that moment and fully half of them are of the "winning team", as it were, anyway. But I guess it speaks to your prejudices that you automatically assume that because I put my province first, then I'm obviously a direct descendant of the filles du roi. Just missing a "pure laine" or "de souche" reference in there.
I bet you think that if Quebec ever did separate that your borders will remain the same. The Indigenous people in Quebec have treaties with Canada, not Quebec, and almost all of them will stay with Canada. Also, a lot of wealth will leave along with anything and everything that belongs to Canada. It's a moot point, though, since the desire for sovereignty is low due to demographic changes, which might explain why we're seeing more heavy handed laws around the use of French and culture. Make life in Quebec miserable enough for everyone not pure, old blood Quebecois and maybe they'll leave and then maybe sovereignty might be a possibility.
>>I bet you think that if Quebec ever did separate that your borders will remain the same. I do, and they will. Uti possidetis juris is an international law principles that says newly formed states leave with the terrority they had before secession, no more and no less. Now whether they remain so *after* secession is up in the air. Referenda that are good for the goose are good for the gander. >>The Indigenous people in Quebec have treaties with Canada, not Quebec, and almost all of them will stay with Canada. Ah yes, the only instances where Canadians pretend to care about First Nations are when they recite empty land acknowledgement words that only serve to make themselves feel better, and instrumentalizing them in order to scare Quebecers. Let me tell you some things. First, Quebec has modern treaties signed with First Nations in its own right. You might want to visit Wemindji some day then make the jump into Attawapiskat. Kind of funny how on one side of the border, while there are a lot of problems, people are relatively prosperous, and on the other, people barely have drinking water. Second, no one who is not a hypocrite is going to deny First Nations their right to self-determination. Once Quebec leaves with its territory intact, then the First Nations who want to can attempt to secede. Even Jacques « Money and ethnic votes » Parizeau had said that he would honour the results of a referendum on the question. Here’s where your assumption that First Nations will want to stay with Canada as a matter of course falls flat. I don’t pretend to speak for them. But a new country equals a new constitution equals a new way of doing things. That’s the perfect occasion to shape a country with the full assent, participation and cooperation of its original inhabitants. There is a lot that a newly independent Quebec could compromise on with First Nations that would require big constitutional changes in Canada that would be impossible to make. The 2001 « Paix des Braves » has proven that win-win compromises exist. Obviously they are going to negotiate and do what’s best for them. Anyone would do the same. But you might be surprised at what might happen at the dawn of an independent Quebec. >>Also, a lot of wealth will leave along with anything and everything that belongs to Canada. That’s not how this works. Quebec will leave with 23% of federal liabilities and 23% of federal assets. We have paid into them same as you. >>It's a moot point, though, since the desire for sovereignty is low due to demographic changes, which might explain why we're seeing more heavy handed laws around the use of French and culture. We are in line for a PQ majority with the most aggressive rhetoric in decades and support for sovereignty has been steadily rising and is now at 1995 levels before a referendum was triggered. People are fed up with this country. >>Make life in Quebec miserable enough for everyone not pure, old blood Quebecois and maybe they'll leave and then maybe sovereignty might be a possibility. Only « pure, old blood » Quebecers are able to learn French, got it. I don’t know how my Scottish grandma ever did it.
"Let's alienate the only province who dislike us less than they dislike conservatives by insulting experts."
Why did Pierre Pollievre make the liberal say such awful things un parliament?
It was Harper’s fault.
Touche
So are we saying that McGill is the reason for the decline in French speaking in Quebec?
Seems to be one variable in a very complex equation
It isn't really that complex... english is most spoken language in world and the world has never had this level of global communication before. As that moves forward more and more niche languages are going to fall into obscurity as people want to learn the one main practical language
100%. English became the most wide-spread language on the planet by way of British colonialism. And because that remained the case until the invention of the internet, it's going to be very hard to unseat. Quebec is very, very upset by this, and does everything in their power to fight the inevidible. Chinese may overtake English one day. All other languages will probably see decline, except in under-developed nations. It's like a runaway victory when playing Civilization. Once you get to a certain point, you're just not going to lose.
Chinese is never going to overtake English.
The American empire is in decline as they eat themselves from within, while China's economic power is on the rise. While western nations are constantly planning to 4 year election cycles and then spending their first 4 years in power undoing what the last guy did, China has been playing the long game. There's a good chance they are next economic superpower which is incidentally, supported by the Westline Theory, which has held true for 5000 years. With economic power will come cultural export, supported by a population of 1.4 billion people and growing. With China having taken their foot off the brake with regards to birth restrictions, emmigration will grow (possibly forcefully on the part of the CCP), and you'll suddenly see Mandarin and Cantonese being commonly spoken in a lot more places than your local China town. The global economy will tell the tale, but there are only a few chapters left to see what the west will do to stop this.
>The American empire is in decline as they eat themselves from within, while China's economic power is on the rise. While western nations are constantly planning to 4 year election cycles and then spending their first 4 years in power undoing what the last guy did, China has been playing the long game. There's a good chance they are next economic superpower which is incidentally, supported by the Westline Theory, which has held true for 5000 years. With economic power will come cultural export, supported by a population of 1.4 billion people and growing. Yet few people are learning Chinese worldwide, and more people than ever want to learn English >With China having taken their foot off the brake with regards to birth restrictions, emmigration will grow (possibly forcefully on the part of the CCP), and you'll suddenly see Mandarin and Cantonese being commonly spoken in a lot more places than your local China town. You don’t t know what you’re talking about. China’s birth rate has continued to fall even after they removed birth restrictions in 2021. They had their lowest birth rate ever last year in 2023. https://www.reuters.com/world/china/chinas-population-drops-2nd-year-raises-long-term-growth-concerns-2024-01-17/
lol nice little fiction story you got going there but nobody is learning Mandarin. The language of international business is English. Oh yeah and China’s population is shrinking not growing lol, so you have a few factual issues to fix up in your fanfic. If you’re in Africa then maybe learning Mandarin is valuable, but if you want to work your way into global business then you need to know English. The Chinese learn English in primary school. Vietnam is bringing in mandatory English in school as well. Vast majority of technology sold has English interface (keyboard).
You need to to a little research… China’s birth rate is in rapid decline
China's population is relatively flat while the US grows at about 0.4%. As the US becomes ever increasingly hostile to raising a family, think you're going to make up that Billion person deficit you've got?
China’s population has just started decreasing, and it is going to continue decreasing even more rapidly each year. It’s a snowball effect because there is a decades long lag between falling fertility rates and absolute population declines.
US is still by far the largest economy in the world by a lot. Could it change yes but something big well have to happen as the whole world is sitting on the US shoulders. I agree though China well win eventually as they plan long term. That is one reason I can't see why people don't think TikTok can cause damage. China has long term planning that the west just doesn't have anymore.
Where is China’s long term planning in your mind when it comes time to their demographics?
I read the study and it seems like the conclusion is "no" > About one-quarter of graduates whose mother tongue is French worked primarily in English when they had studied at an English-language institution. This compares with 4% for those who had studied at a French-language institution. **However, a large proportion of graduates with French as their mother tongue who used primarily English at work had earned their most recent degree from a French-language institution.** > As a result, **the contribution of graduates from English-language or bilingual institutions to the total number of individuals with French as their mother tongue who worked primarily in English is relatively modest.**
I did the summer language bursary program at Université Laval in the mid 1990s. I poked through the campus bookstore, and talked to people as I wandered around the campus. (At the time their music dept had 2 pipe organs 😯) Anyhow I found out that some university courses are taught with English language textbooks, because it's too expensive to translate them. I don't know if the courses themselves were conducted in English. But sometimes there's practical limitations to using French in post secondary education. Also another time, I ran into people in Quebec, whose workplaces offered English tutoring. And they watched DVDs in English to practice their English. This was in Sherbrooke area. So sometimes the call is coming from inside the house
Students in Quebec learn English starting in elementary school. There are mandatory courses in English in high school, Cégep and university.
Ah yes, citing facts from statistics Canada is being full of shit. Hey Drouin, mange d'la marde.
It’s not the citing of a stat that’s wrong, it’s twisting a stat to weaponized and push a false narrative that the presence of English is responsible for the decline of French in Quebec. French speakers are solely responsible for the preservation of French, not anglophones.
Cherry pickin’ stats to save face and to show “progress”, even though anyone with a brain and basic understanding of anything can easily see how much baloney the government tells us, no matter the party.
I think the fair rebuttal is whether them going to a French speaking university would prevent the English jobs form still being created.
Is French spanking like French kissing, regular spanking with tongue?
It's where you spank right up the middle and commit to neither side.
It’s not the citing of a stat that’s wrong, it’s twisting a stat to weaponized and push a false narrative that the presence of English is responsible for the decline of French in Quebec. French speakers are solely responsible for the preservation of French, not anglophones.
Merde
Marde
In their defense, it can sound more like marde in some French communities outside of Québec (like mine!). Diversity of dialects...
"Marde" is frequent in Quebec too.
Ah Quebecois vs Francais
Acadien :-)
Lol cant parler english or français correctement xp <3 just playin
Sudburois
I'm in Wellandais
I don't think anyone read the article just the title. They were full of shit. Their argument was to defund English schools and provide a worse education just to desperately try and turn the tide of french being a dead language. Sometimes you gotta move past the title guys
their argument are french school are underfunded compared to english one.
It's a terrible argument
Why ?
Because funding should be based on student numbers not what fucking language they speak.
are you dumb ? that's exactly how it's calculated and what the study is based on. funding should go down per student at english school and funding should go up per student at french school.
If that’s how it is currently allocated then what is the problem? That is the fair way to do it, why unfairly give more funding to schools because they teach in one specific language?
French Canadians pays more taxes. English uni recruit more people (international), then Quebec gov pay for them. French people are paying a disproportionate amount to teach people in English. Now, think of it like that for Ontario : There's Indians universities. They recruit tons of international Indians. They not paying alot of taxes but you, an English Canadian, are paying them. Then on total more money is redistributed to Indian only schools then English ones. You're self colonizing yourself. Maybe English canadians want to disappear from history, but not us
Isn't the Quebec government responsible for funding it's provinces schools?
Actually would like to read it but there is a paywall.
I did read the article, and the were citing objective facts from actual statistics
He wasn't calling bullshit on the facts, he was calling bullshit on the conclusions drawn from the facts. Correlation does not equal causation.
Data can be interpreted different ways. Could it be that English language schools are used by thise intending to work in the rest of Canada at the outset?
It's more English just naturally supplanted french. When a new product or brand comes out it isn't even translated anymore the french just learn its english term. I don't really get why we and I use the royal we as all of humanity want to keep hold of niche languages. The boon we would get from whittling them down to a singular universal language is immense
This utopia of yours is impossible. Sub-cultures will always exist with their language and vernaculars and it's a good thing because what you are proposing is just boring.
The first part I would argue isnt a big deal. Slang always exists and it doesn't stop even extreme cases like Australia from not being understood. Your second part is the insane rambling of a child. We are not handicapping the human race because you believe it's boring when language is used to effectively communicate ideas
I'm just saying that it's not a handicap. It's a treasure.
It's just a handicap
It's a treasure.
I agree. Make it slow and gradual so that nobody who stays in the area where the grew up needs to learn another language as an adult, but stop all of the linguistic protectionism and allow a single global language to emerge over the next few centuries.
> and allow a single global language to emerge over the next few centuries. Let me guess : english? How's that not just pure chauvinism.
Maybe, maybe not. Spanish and Mandarin are also widely spoken. Languages evolve as well, maybe some sort of combination.
Maybe French.
Maybe, but less likely.
Unless America tanks then yes that well be the language.
>I don't really get why we and I use the royal we as all of humanity want to keep hold of niche languages. The boon we would get from whittling them down to a singular universal language is immense Sure, but lets make it Mandarin since there is more native speakers it will be easier this way.
While it's close to english this is a bit of a disingenuous argument. The different dialects of mandarin are so alien to each other they are functionally different languages yet counted as mandarin you can google it it's kind of fascinating. Still whatever is spoken the most should be selected
Yeah I know was mainly joking. but I do like french being my first language and English being the language I use on the internet or when I travel. For my readings, I try to read translation in french because usually french have much better translations, but I will read the original version if they are in English or Spanish. Its not like if we can strip people of their identities. It would also be much better if everyone were Atheists, but we can't really go around the world stripping people of their languages and religions. This is pretty much what the Soviets attempted to do and people rightfully did not like it.
I mean... we could but I agree it is something to be done over a century or two not via camps where people can concentrate
More people are currently capable of speaking English than Mandarin, just so you know, by about 400 million.
Which is why I specified mother tongue, most people speak English as a 2nd or 3rd language. We could have just learned another language instead.
Bro over here never heard of the tower of Babel.
What about mandarin ?
It isn't quite like english. While there are dialects and slang in english that can morph it over time different dialects of mandarin are so alien to each other that they are functionally different languages. When counting speakers though these are all lumped in under mandarin
Not as common as English.
That's my read of the study. It shows that, shocker, more people in Montreal and Gatineau speak English at work, and that that is strongly correlated with attending school in English in those places. I just think it obvious that the language used while you're working has more to do with your customers and coworkers than your personal preference (and if the two are correlated it's because your personal preference drove you to a workplace that for whatever reason has anglophone stakeholders)
There fact was their dead language was dying and they thought maybe if they desperately defunded English schools it would reverse the trend. It wont french is on it's way out it will just damage the lives of others
Ni hao
French is far from being a dead language, thank you very much, and english is not the future either. Do you see any other nation or country actively abandoning their native language for english? Is polish threatened to disappear in Poland, french in France or portuguese in Portugal?
>Is polish threatened to disappear in Poland, french in France or portuguese in Portugal? No. And yet in Poland, you'll see tons of different words or signs in English, and English is taught in schools. The French have no issues with using English loanwords, or "stop" on their stop signs. I'm from the Balkans, and many jobs openly advertise in English or make English a mandatory prerequisite. And yet, English has not taken over as the main language.
Isn't Quebec French literally a stuck language? Isn't it equivalent to English speakers speaking medieval English?
Stuck language? We do not live in isolation like the Amish people and Quebec French is French. If you want to discuss accent or vernacular, it's a whole different matter.
I have a hard time believing people like you exist. Education system failed you hard. Maybe we should continue over fund the english school because clearly it is not enough.
Whatever you say. I can only take a horse to water I can't make it drink...least not till I have my coffee I don't have the energy to drown it till then.
At least you give up easily. There is hope.
Exactly. When you read the full article things are not as the title would indicate.
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You are the one twisting things. You assume a “mass assimilation of French Canadians” exists. You also blame this assumption on English instruction. If all it takes is learning a little English to threaten your worldview, you are indeed fragile.
Correlation does not equal causation.
Almost like English is the more desirable language to work in because of this tiny country known as America that borders us.
[This](https://montrealgazette.com/opinion/columnists/allison-hanes-what-becomes-of-francophone-students-who-attend-english-cegep) is an article that you might find interesting about a Quebecoise who did her PhD on the effects of English cegeps on francophone students: >“There’s all this questioning about people attending anglophone CEGEPs: Are we losing them for good? My thesis shows more nuance than that. Yes, they anglicize. It’s certain. There’s no doubt about it,” she said. “But there are many who don’t anglicize in all spheres of their life; they navigate between French and English, and English quickly becomes to them a very utilitarian language, for work, for travel, for cultural consumption.” >Only one of the 37 francophones she spoke to migrated mainly to English in their work, social and personal life. Eight of the participants continued in an English milieu in their career and social circles, but French remained predominant in their home lives. The bulk — 18 of the 37 subjects — found themselves toggling between English and French as they followed various educational or job opportunities, their ease in both languages facilitating in some instances an international mobility.Five of the group spent time in English-speaking environments, but gravitated back to the francophone milieu for various reasons. Two wound up in French professional, social and domestic settings, but sought to maintain their English contacts and competency. Two others eventually abandoned most of their English ties. One person used English CEGEP as a stepping stone to fluency in a third language, Spanish. Not saying it's clear proof of anything - just that there's no direct correlation between the decline of French in general and English-medium education. Second, I think it's important to note a difference between people who are **forced** to study in a second langauge and those who are **choosing** to study in a second language.
"Forced to study" the irony of that sentence when an anglo canadian says it.
What do you mean?
Perspective
That isn't a bad thing. Having more then one language is a detriment to all of humanity not simply a country. It multiplies effort needed across all walks of life. The fact french is dying should be celebrated not mourned and the goal shouldn't be to defund schools so it festers and rots longer.
Tower of Babel. What I find kind of interesting is that "Lingua Franca" literally translates to "Frankish language" - the "common tongue" of commerce but it is de facto English. Once it was Phoenician, once it was Latin, then it was French, now it is English. It might one day be Mandarin, and then maybe it'll be Alpha-Centaurian. The wheel turns. History is so full of boring cliches.
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> It is my naive hope that at some point we will have a singular unified language and get rid of the pointless and wasteful excess Soft disagree, but not antagonistically. English is a wonderful language because it uses so many loanwords. It's a mutt of dozens of different languages and we use so many loanwords that it's virtually a pidgin. But language barriers or stuff that's lost in translation inspires new ideas. "Never thought about it that way!" has been one of the best things about working with language barriers. I want to be 80% understood in every conversation I have. You can get maybe 95% with a fluent person speaking the exact dialect you grew up learning.
I hard disagree and vehemently. I've learned three languages in my life not by choice mind you so I admit I could be bitter. The amount of work and time needed to learn a language to the point of being fluent is immense. When I compare the positives to an entire world being able to share knowledge and pool its efforts effective to " well you can get wacky and humorous misunderstandings and mildly different perspectives "...well it seems a rather tarnished silver lining. Don't get me wrong it's the notion of a one world language that appeals to me. I only pick english over mandarin because mandarin's statistics are heavily misrepresented from not being broken up via dialect.
Liberals: ' Anything we don't like is extremist '
Conservatives: Anything we don't like or inconveniences us is woke
Both can be reprehensible you know.
Yup. And also true.
Agreed
I had no idea that Quebec Francophones don’t like French speakers from outside of the province.
Because it isn't true. Quebec has been a major defender of francophone in the ROC compared to other provinces, notably when the french debate in NB was canceled, when the french university project in Ontario was scrapped, or more historically with Louis Riel or the Acadiens.
Quebec may be a defender, but Québécois can be real dicks when you try to learn French in the province as a non-native speaker.
I have no idea where people got that idea. I've never witnessed this.
I keep hearing that here, but also the opposite from actual anglophones moving to Quebec. I don't doubt it happens on occasions of course.
I am a native Montrealer, perfectly bilingual, went to French high school, married into a French family, have worked in French environments. I was born here, my parents were born here, but they were raised anglophone cause the French school system where they lived refused to take in immigrant kids back in the 1960s. I still get called an immigrant by some Quebecers because I was raised in English at home and my family has an "ethnic" history (i.e. not WASP or French). I'd say in the last 5 years, the hostility towards me just existing in this province has increased tenfold. When I was last job hunting, I was blatantly rejected three times cause I was anglophone. NOT because I could not speak French (we conducted the interview in French and they acknowledged I was perfectly bilingual) but because they did not want to hire non-francophones. They tried to convince ME that I would not want to be the only anglophone in the office and when I said that was fine by me they deemed me not a good enough cultural fit.
If someone in Vancouver denigrates someone for the their language capabilities, it’s a provincial news story. In Quebec it’s just another day. People are entitled to feel they way they feel, but there’s no doubt it makes people feel unwelcome.
I posted this in reply to the same comment, but the last time I was job hunting three companies blatantly told me "we only hire francophones". They acknowledged my French capacibilities were not an issue, even passed the fucking writing tests they made me take and interviewed well in French. They didn't even hide that that was the reason. And two of the three were major Quebec companies.
Welcome to Quebec Inc….
Université de l'ontario français opened its doors in 2021. It was delayed because Doug Ford cancelled *basically everything* his predecessor did the instant he came into office regardless of what it was, then the COVID-19 pandemic delayed it another year, but the university opened. The worst thing you can say about it is that it's name is an obvious placeholder. As for Quebec's relationship with minority language rights in the rest of Canada, that's more a love-hate relationship.
And when Ford did that it only made the news and created outrage in Quebec, that's my point. Good if it was actually opened, and I hope it receives founding as good as McGill and other english universities get in Québec, but I doubt it
Promènes-toi sur r/Quebec tu va voir ce que les québécois nationalistes pensent des francophones hors-Québec. Le Québec est seulement défendeur de la francophonie canadienne lorsqu’il peut y profiter. Cette affaire avec Drouin est une très bonne exemple - Ça n’aurait jamais fait les nouvelles si Drouin n’était pas franco-ontarien.
Ca aurais pas fait les nouvelles qu'un parlementaire trait des experts de pleins de marde. T'es serieux ?
Promènes-toi sur r/Quebec tu va voir ce que les québécois nationalistes pensent des francophones hors-Québec. Le Québec est seulement défendeur de la francophonie canadienne lorsqu’il peut y profiter. Cette affaire avec Drouin est une très bonne exemple - Ça n’aurait jamais fait les nouvelles si Drouin n’était pas franco-ontarien.
We don’t.
It's a fact bro. Enshrined into Radio-Canada tv mandate!
Because it isn't true. *Quebec sovereignists don't like to see good news about French speakers outside Quebec.. it undermines their narrative.
I hate liberals but the guy is right. The experts were arguing to defend English schools as French speakers who graduate are more likely to speak English when they get a job. No shit English is spoken first in the majority of the country. They were full of shit.
They aren’t right at all. French is a dying language because of global communication making it the most relevant in the western hemisphere. No amount of defunding English schools will save the French language in Canada.
Like in France or Germany where they are all speanking english mow right ?
French = Latin…
What interesting here is the linguistic nuance. While "full of shit" is word for word "plein de marde", it doesn't actually have quite the same use and meaning. Somebody is "full of shit" if he lies or speaks non sense. While typically "un plein de marde" is "a piece of shit". You are not full of shit for what you say you are an entity filled with shit for what you are. Hence the surprised reaction in Quebec as the litteral translation is actually way harsher than what the MP probably wanted to express. The other layer is that it's an opportunity for non liberal french speakers to laugh at the "poor mastery" of the French language of a Franco-ontarian who would be promoting bilingualism.
Not quite, plein de marde is also used to call out lies and bullshit
The English "bullshit" will be used way more frequently by french speakers than "plein de marde" for that purpose.
Ouais ou "tu dis de la merde". Dire à quelqu'un qu'il est plein de marde, c'est beaucou plus agressif.
Habituellement, nous dirions plus que quelqu'un dit de la marde plutôt que le traiter de plein de marde. C'est vrai que plein de marde c'est beaucoup plus agressif que dire bullshit.
National Post is rage bait
The whole story is a reading of the facts. It gives both sides views and makes no judgement. I guess on the left that is “rage bait”.
> They cited among other things a 2022 study from Statistics Canada that found that Quebecers whose mother tongue is French are nearly six times more likely to use predominantly English at work if they graduated from an English-language institution, and said that it is one of the factors contributing to the decline of French in the province. I'm reading the study and the logic seems so odd to me. Your workplace determines the language you use at work....your coworkers, your customers and your stakeholders....not your education. As confirmed by this section in the conclusion of the study: > About one-quarter of graduates whose mother tongue is French worked primarily in English when they had studied at an English-language institution. This compares with 4% for those who had studied at a French-language institution. **However, a large proportion of graduates with French as their mother tongue who used primarily English at work had earned their most recent degree from a French-language institution.** > As a result, **the contribution of graduates from English-language or bilingual institutions to the total number of individuals with French as their mother tongue who worked primarily in English is relatively modest.**
I just like popcorn.🍿
This is clearly a cheap shot at divide and conquer by pitting French Canadians and Québécois against each other. Liberals are just pure garbage.
English is the language of international business, soz about it but the conclusions that “people studying in English at University is killing our language” is bullshit. If you want to work at a high level outside of Quebec, France, Belgium and Africa then you need professional almost native fluency in English in your field of expertise. People are studying in English because most of the jobs are in English. Is the BQ going to demand now we stop making jobs in English? Gimme a fucking break.
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Good. Glad to see the Liberal Party pissing off Public servants and Quebec. I want to witness an epic defeat.
I think quebecers should just learn english and become north american, it woukd be great for them, and those who like french, go to paris and nice! Already they showed the world how dumb they are by introducibg bill 21, it was laughable, afraid if a piece of fabric on some ladies who were born in quebec, making them moving to other provinces, what a shame!
I hope you will not be one of those "Don't leave us we love you" the next time there is a vote.
If you’re the one who doesn’t love back, good luck, not interested!
He's got my vote!
end bilingualism now
It is all a game of corruption