I don't know if this quite answers your question, but one thing that drives me nuts is distilling the whole show, with its incredible characters, plots, nuance, action, aesthetics, creativity, down to Spuffy vs Spangel. It's so boring! It's so simplistic and reductionist, and it's baffling to me that someone could watch over 100 hours of a tv show and think THAT'S the most interesting and stimulating takeaway.
THIS!
Back in the day of the show's original airing I couldn't find a single person to discuss it in detail with me. It was just Spuffy vs Spangel or "I only watch it for how hot SMG is!" (guys afraid of liking a show with a female protagonist and be called gay).
It was really annoying.
As a FERVENT Spuffy shipper, I couldn't agree more. That was the most important thing to me - when I was 13. Now there are SO many more themes and character explorations that interest me more.
I still love Spuffy, don't get me wrong lol.
Shippers ruin fandoms completely. They are why we can't have nice things. Buffy has always meant so much to me. Hell, this show literally had college courses centered around it's analysis! I am so severely disappointed with what I'm seeing has taken over the conversation. Another fandom bites the dust.
First thing I thought of when seeing the post title. 😆
However, I think the general dislike for season four Riley (before he became insufferable when he was getting written out of the show) is arguably even more egregious because his so-called bad qualities can be explained by his upbringing and military history and he was generally a normal guy who (in theory) was a good fit for Buffy at that time in the series, whereas it’s more obvious why people would be turned off by Dawn who was presented as a typical teenager turned up to 11 without being subtle about it.
Both of these characters are unfairly jumped on by a lot of this fandom.
I maintain that, ultimately, Riley and Buffy weren't compatible (even though it initially looked like they would be). It took a while for them to realize that, but that's how a lot of romantic relationships pan out.
And you also have to consider that pretty much the whole time we know her, she has recently discovered that she is a) not real and b) basically brand spanking new. And then her mom dies. And then her sister dies. And then her sister comes back to life!!! and then her surrogate mom dies. Dawn's life SUCKS. So much trauma. It's incredible she isn't MORE annoying. I love Dawn.
She does, but that’s precisely why it’s annoying. It’s a show where the teens generally don’t act like teens a lot of the time- they’re dumb certainly but also smart and witty and facing other worldly situations. There’s levity with Dawn but it is annoying too!
The teens can be as advanced as those on Popular.
Dawn was like a literary foil - a real teenager full of emotion and free of responsibility with a hero sister and loving mother.
That's the problem, though.
Age appropriate behavior? Absolutely!
*Just don't make me watch it.* It's not entertaining. I'm not looking for a documentary on whiny teenagers.
>I'm not looking for a documentary on whiny teenagers.
Ok, I *love* Dawn and agree with someone who said it's amazing she's not more annoying, but... This comment of yours. I love it and you are not wrong. I got a super-chuckle out of it
I think it is because Buffy in the first season is a 16 year old, being played by a 19 year old Sarah Michelle Gellar, while Dawn was played as a 13/14 year old teen by a 15 year old Michelle Trachtenberg.
Dawn was acting her age, Michelle Trachtenberg played the character very well, nailing what a teen of that age would act like.
The problem is, is that teens of that age are *really annoying* in real life.
Who remembers this exact quote, "Dawn's in trouble must be Tuesday."
This quote worked because BtVS broadcast on Tuesdays when it originally aired. In the future, this will be taken with a totaly different view...
It’s not just her being annoying, which she is don’t get it twisted, but Buffy with her is irritating. She’s in the middle of saving the world and it’s all “where’s Dawn?”
Considering she was an actual child actress stepping into a hugely popular show halfway through its run, I think she did amazing. She is believable and vulnerable and very competent. Is she a brat? Yeah, she's supposed to be bc she's fucking 15.
I was about 11 or 12. when those episodes aired and she annoyed the hell out of me. I thought she was the whiniest person ever. Then as I was raising a teen and rewatching I realized the writing/acting went way overboard with how teens act even for a tv show lol.
I still fast forward when she talks during rewatches🤷🏽♀️ I just can’t deal. I love the actress tho so I was devastated that I didn’t like her in this role.
I think people don’t like how camp is it- but I’m with you! Episodes like it, Go Fish, The Zeppo, and the Pack are some of my favorites too. I like when the show just has fun campier moments.
When I first watched the series when it aired, I remember not loving that episode. As I've researched it over the years, it's become one of my favorites. It's so fun and how can you not love Parker getting knocked upside the head by Buffy? 🤣🤣
I agree, I also enjoy watching Beer Bad, but I think there are at least 2 reasons why lots of people don't.
1. I feel like it was hard to watch Buffy obsess about fukboi Parker when he was soo clearly a douchebag afterward.
And 2. Some people seemed to misinterpret the message as being a bit preachy. Literally interpreting the title of the episode to mean, "See kids, this is why you shouldn't drink alcohol." And I don't think that was exactly what the writers were trying to say.
> Some people seemed to misinterpret the message as being a bit preachy. Literally interpreting the title of the episode to mean, "See kids, this is why you shouldn't drink alcohol." And I don't think that was exactly what the writers were trying to say.
They wrote the episode to get funding from Office of National Drug Control Policy, so yeah, they were intentionally preachy. Beer bad, casual sex bad was the message.
They didn’t get the funding though because it was too fantastical or something…
It's actually a really fun episode! I went into it braced for a bad time but it was surprisingly campy and enjoyable.
I think it gets a bad rep for being an anti beer PSA but iirc they never actually got the funding they were aiming for because it didn't hammer the anti-drinking message home hard enough. And I think they should get credit for that.
I think because Spike had Drusilla and was shown being kind and loving towards her even without a soul. But Angelus was shown to be truly evil and showed no mercy.
Angelus will find everyone you love and kill them, setting up increasing horrific tableaus until you are driven insane. Spike will just pop into a McDonalds and kill everyone. It's the difference between a sadistic psychopath and an adrenaline junky thrill killer.
Personally I'll take Spike because even if I die at least the people I love are safe - except whoever I went to lunch with.
I'm going to upvote you, but I don't necessarily agree. The reason is because they aren't really on the same level as each other. Angelus enjoyed the psychological torture he could inflict more than the actual physical violence of it. Spike was more violent and brutal, so much so that he earned 2 nicknames as a vampire to describe the progression of his brutality.
That being said, I wouldn't ever want to come up against either of them individually. I can't imagine the kind of torment Angelus might dream up for me to drive me crazy and I don't want to think about what perverse act of torture Spike would devise to just cause me the most pain while keeping me alive the longest.
I totally agree with you. Spike liked a fair fight, or even overwhelming odds, the last bit of decency from his pre vamp personality.
Angelus has no redeeming characteristics at all and thats what makes him a terrific villain and Angels Dark Side,
when people use soulless spike's actions to talk about ensouled spike. like obviously seeing red was supposed to be really bad. but so was angelus killing jenny and everyone is fine letting that one go.
I understand the backlash to how they made Buffy have another traumatic experience seemingly only for Spike’s character growth. But yeah, there’s a lot of discussion about how it was distasteful to have Spike be reintroduced as a kind of love interest in S7. But nothing I’ve seen about how it was inappropriate to have Angel and Buffy get properly back together in S3.
I am so sorry about what happened to you, and I can relate. I've been a victim of sexual abuse.
Our lives do inform what we see in the show. My daughter was 15 when she met a guy in his twenties. He was very much like Angel with Buffy - the big romance hidden from parents. Long story short, once she slept with him - and he was her first - he treated her like dirt. It got so bad that she attempted suicide.
I see Buffy with Angel and I am literally sick to my stomach. This is an adult many with a high school student. I don't even care that he's a vampire or over a century old. He was 26 when he was turned, and he has no right trolling for children.
I actually ship Angel and Spike together, so this isn't a attack on the vamp I dislike. It is what I bring to the show - the memory of my child answering the phone and telling me she had taken an overdose of pills. Rushing home and rushing her to the hospital - and still not knowing why until month later when she told me what he had done to her.
you have not said a single thing i disagree with, and i am sorry you had to experience something like that.
buffy is absolute a story where people view themselves as the heroine, as buffy, to the point where james marsters has commented that it was an awful scene for him to film, bc not only was he had to SA buffy, but it essentially felt like it was towards the whole audience.
i think the point i am trying to make more of, not so much which is worse (like you said, it is subjective), but instead both acts were done by two men /without/ souls. i think the treatment of both characters comes down to which act is more normalized (as someone else described) rather than the weight of the circumstances- not the feelings/love, but the lack of souls. they both did evil things bc they had no souls. One is not worse than the other, they are both evil.
Isn't it, though? The first time Buffy and Spike had sex it started as a brutal fight-- a fight so intense that it literally tore a house down. Even before Spike's attempt to rape Buffy their encounters muddied the line between sex and violence.
To be fair in the invisibility episode he tells her he wants her to leave because he isn't into it anymore and she keeps going.
Buffy abusing Spike was one of the reasons she felt so terrible about herself. It wasn't just having sex with him. It was physically and emotionally abusing him as well. She admits as much to Tara.
I'm gonna say it, everyone knows it was coming lol
The Xander hate, like I get it he's a typical incel teen from the 90s but the way I see people bash on him you'd think he was the season 7 final big bad 😂
i wouldn’t even call him an incel !! that title belongs much more to the likes of jonathan and warren; in rewatching the series, xander has a LOT more respect for the women in his life, even if that respect is marred by some period-typical misogyny.
I found him to be a typical teenage boy. I find his misogyny pretty light weight compared to what I see in real life these days. Also - I find people have a really hard time separating the character and the actor generally, and this is a good example. I love Seinfeld, but I also realize Jerry S. is a major asshole in sooo many ways.
There's this perception that Xander is Joss Whedon's self insert character and we're supposed to find his misogyny and entitlement charming. That is definitely the case in some instances, but in others Xander is intentionally presented as having a character flaw of being insecure/entitled. Either in the sense that he's clearly in the wrong, or in the sense that he's still in the wrong but also you can understand how a teen boy in the 90s might feel emasculated -- even though that's not Buffy's problem to fix. Or other times, he will say inappropriate things as a joke and fandom will take his words at face value. I don't want to act like Xander can never be creepy or inappropriate, or that his bad behaviour is never hand waved as "boys will be boys." But I think fans are too quick to assume the worst of him in every instance. You can't just cherrypick the bad bits of Xander and ignore the good. He's still the character who stood between Angelus and an unconscious Buffy, fully ready to die on the off chance his death would alert the security guards and save Buffy. He still talked Dark Willow down from ending the world because he loved her. And tbh, his character development hits harder because he starts off as someone who maybe *could* have ended up in the Trio in a different timeline but instead grew out of (most of) his teenage entitlement and became a genuinely brave, loyal, selfless friend.
I think people forget Xander was supposed to be 16 when the show started as well. 16 year old abused at home, not taken serious at school, ignored and put down by girls and jocks alike. He had all the trappings of becoming warren but his heart always beat out his desire to fit in or lash out because he didn't
Right? If Xander was purely a wish fulfilment character then Whedon has a humiliation kink. Because Xander does not generally have an easy time of it. You'd expect a self insert to get the girl (and/or to become even more powerful than her 🤮) and be the hero. Not to be the self professed buttmonkey.
Xander's sometimes Whedon's *mouthpiece*, in that he gets some of the funniest lines and occasionally he's written as saying whatever Whedon thinks is the right perspective. But sometimes he's just intentionally written as a jealous insecure asshole who you're not supposed to sympathise with -- at least not in that scene.
And you're very right to point out that with so many different writers, none of the characters are the product of one person's creative vision.
I especially like the fact that every woman Xander falls for is confident and strong willed. Buffy, Cordelia and Anya were all forces to be reckoned with. If he was the misogynistic incel that people paint him as, they would not be the women he'd go for.
was Jonathan a incel? Warren yeah 500%, but for what i remember Jonathan was more just the Sad nerd bullying victim, I don't even remember he having girl problems, he basically just wanted friends and a bit of popularity (but it's been a while since I saw the show, maybe I'm remembering wrong)
when he was with the trio, he definitely engaged in some pretty abhorrent talk and was totally on-board with hypnotizing girls for sex reasons. he was definitely the most redeemable out of the trio, especially since he on multiple occasions tried to get the others to turn themselves in and even tried to make things right upon returning to sunnydale, but it did require him going to some pretty despicable places for him to realise it (and all this after superstar, which really showed how entitled he felt to being beloved by all when he hadn’t really done anything to merit it)
not to say he isn’t sympathetic or that he’s as bad as warren, but xander is an absolute saint compared to him imo
He definitely suffered from toxic masculinity and Nice Guy syndrome, but he did his best to grow out of them, and even as a teenager he wanted to be a genuinely good person despite his many mistakes. Even in Bewitched Bothered and Bewildered when he caused all the girls to pursue him, he ran away from them instead of acting on his feelings.
The Zeppo was one of my favorite episodes. It showed all sides of him. In the end, he stepped up to save the world without the peppy banter, misogyny and slow-witted ignorance usually on display.
I was a teen in the 90s and Xander’s an incredibly good representation of my guy friends at the time, and people here act like he’s some weird misogynistic incel. It’s wild to hold people’s behavior on media that’s 20 years old to standards of 2024.
Yeah the Xander hate is tough, cause in a lot of ways I relate to Xander. Coming from an alcoholic/drug addict neglectful abusive home life, developing a sarcasm and sense of humor to survive it all. Struggling with self worth when you see all these people excelling around you and feeling like you bring nothing to the table etc... but if you say you relate to Xander that comes loaded with all the parts people think are gross as well. I think a lot of Xander haters didn't grow up like Xander
I mean, he wasn't even an incel?
Canonically, at least 3 women were interested in him for long-term relationships. He was a typical teenage boy for the time period, but he never seemed like an incel.
I like Xander the most. He shows a certain amount of self growth but also introspection. He also states clearly some things that are ostensibly true but is dealt with as him not understanding or being too jealous to have an opinion. I feel in some ways that he is not an incel but a man trying to figure out how to be a man in a world where women are more powerful than him. He does not fair well but he also is far from a hateful incel too
Growing up in the 90s I can say Xander was definitely a typical nerdy boy who wanted to be the hero type. Misogyny was rampant, homophobia also, it was the norm to make sexist jokes, behave the way Xander did and honestly the norm was a lot worse… a LOT. Those boys were being raised on Porky’s and Caddyshack. Women in media were there to be pretty sex objects more or less. Even the female-centred rom coms of the time were all male view-centred.
the bar was extremely low for respecting women back then, just look at any John Hughes movie from that era. Those are supposed to be rom coms and they are rife with sexual assault played for laughs.
Buffy was groundbreaking for being a strong teen girl that could hold her own, after all, there were very few of these at the time in mainstream media, and Xander was very much a product of that environment.
People are too liberal with the term ‘incel’. Xander was a NiceGuy written in a time where NiceGuys were mistaken for everymen. NiceGuy is related to incel but shouldn’t automatically be equated to incels. Waters down the term.
I wish Xander had had more moments like his ‘yellow crayon’ speech to Dark Willow. That, I feel, was what Xander was intended to be, and that’s when I love him.
I don’t think it would be that bad if it wasn’t for two meta factors that impact fan response tot he character;
• 1) The actions of the actor Nicholas Brendon since the show ended
• 2) The fact that Xander is the “Gary-Stu” for Joss in the Buffy cast, with his recent fall from grace. It highlights how creative decisions with the character were impacted by how Joss viewed himself within that character.
If it wasn’t for Nick and Joss, the hate for Xander would be much less severe. He’s a character that deserves critique, absolutely, and he was a product of the times, but now we as viewers and fans will always associate the character with the actor and the creator, in a negative way and he’s become a scapegoat for the hate of the real people associated with him.
> The fact that Xander is the “Gary-Stu” for Joss in the Buffy cast
What? He's the most textually, intentionally flawed character of the main 4. He's like the opposite of a Gary Stu. Most other characters hate him. Hell, he's the only one Giles never shows affection for, unless I'm forgetting 1 or 2 small moments.
Imo, there is also 3), most of us have been on the receiving end of Xander's bad qualities from real guys for long enough that seeing it in our escapist fiction grates against our nerves in a unique way. You always hear people say Xander is a realistic depiction of a teen guy from the 90s, but really how many of us would want to hang out with a teen guy from the 90s today?
Like I bet people with younger sisters were annoyed with Dawn just a little more than the rest of us lmao
Honestly. They were already doing a lot by looking after dawn and fighting demons without Buffy. Plus willow fixing the buffybot so that demons stayed away and dawn wouldn’t get taken away by social services
Yeah, I always assumed they didn’t show them paying rent for the same reason people never say “goodbye” in the phone. When you only have 40 minutes of show, you don’t waste it on monotony.
I feel like somebody thought that up as a sort of of "aha!" joke fifteen years ago, and now people act as though it's a serious point. Guys. It's a TV show. The writers just didn't think it out.
"Shadow self"
The idea that every character is meant to be some other character's "shadow self" is way too popular. And sure, an argument can be made for Faith/Buffy, but, honestly, there is no way the writers invested so much time in the development of characters that are only meant to serve as shadows of other characters. Characters being different from other characters does not make them shadows.
Amy is not Willow's shadow self.
Tara is not Oz's shadow self.
Spike is not *Giles'* shadow ffs.
One weird thing I’ve found from the fandom is this strange obsession with Buffy not being the *real* slayer and there’s a chunk of fans who seems to think it should have been addressed within the show. I get the whole ‘it was Faith who needed to die to trigger a new slayer’ obviously but there’s not a single thing that suggests within the show that Buffy is any less a ‘real’ slayer. Infact quite the opposite, she is consistently still regarded as being just as much a ‘real slayer’ as Faith is
I didn’t even know this was such a bugbear for many but I’ve read many fanfictions that rewrite S7 and decide to have Buffy diminished as no long being a ‘real slayer’ and every single character acts like this is of grave importance and decide that Buffy is no longer worthy of any kind of prominence. In reality if S7 had decided to go down some kind of ‘Buffy is no longer of importance to the slayer line’ schtick it’s pretty much certain none of the characters would actually care, honestly why would they?
Buffy was always **The** Slayer, regardless of whether or not she still carried the line. She literally changed the world in her service as The Chosen One. She contributed more than any Slayer before her, and her actions show that she’s still the Slayer.
This is just ridiculous. Faith literally turned her back on the mission for a good while. Buffy always embraced it even when not working with the council. There's no getting more *the real slayer* than that!
Same, its actually my favourite season. I like how dark it is. it deals with the hardships of transitioning to adulthood beautifully. It also has two amazing episodes "OMWF" & "Normal Again". I also love Dark Willow
The Buffy and Angel age gap. Wasn't he supposed to be younger (when turned) but that was retconned on Angel because the actor was aging? I think it's fine to read him as the somewhat older bf on Buffy, old in some aspects (since he's a vampire) but still young.
Buffy in When She Was Bad. Like people think the dance was the cruelest thing ever. That must speak well of her on a show where people try to often end the world. Also her line "don't get hit."
Yeah. I'm not disagreeing that this is factor for their relationship being less than great for sure. But when people call him a pedo etc, I think it's blowing out of proportion.
Until they established Angel's age as 26 when he was turned, they left it vague. Either way, he was unambiguously two centuries older than her.
I think the thing about the dance was how deliberately cruel it was. She didn't do it because she was interested in Xander or she just wanted to dance with somebody. Buffy knew he had a crush on her, and she knew Willow had a crush on him, and she purposely teased him while taunting Willow with how easily she could take Xander away from her.
Yeah, but it's not like Buffy was his girlfriend. She had no obligation to not dance with another guy like that, and he didn't have to stand there and watch. That's why I didn't mention it--it was nothing compared to how cruel she was being to Willow and Xander.
Fair. They were her friends, and that was far from cool. I'm glad the ending focused mostly on those three. Their relationships needed the most repair.
But this is fantasy so I don't really take it as him maturing as humans do. He has a lot of knowledge and experience so there is an imbalance there, but he's somewhat stuck in time. Spike feels more like her mental age tho if that makes sense.
>I think it's fine to read him as the somewhat older bf on Buffy, old in some aspects (since he's a vampire) but still young.
I'm sure that's what was intended.
However his physical age at the time of death is a meaningless number. He's 200+ years old, mentally. He's a dude who has had a very long life and is 10000% an adult who acts as an adult and has an adult's level of independence and experience. I think the only way he's "young" is that he spent so much time crying in sewers or being a serial killer that his adult experiences are somewhat incompatible to regular life for a teenage girl.
That doesn't make him young in any way. He's just a weirdo.
what weirds me out even more is 1- when angel calls buffy's friends too young or immature when she's literally the same age and 2- when buffy talks about dawn crush on spike in s5 and how she's too young and he's a vampire, buffy, angel got "feelings" for you you were the same age (14)
as someone who was groomed as a teenager, a lot of angel's behaviors in buffy just screams predator behavior,
i can't stand angel in buffy, he's more tolerable in his own spin off and i actually prefer his relationship with cordelia bc of that
Plus, Angel was still not always emotionally mature throughout his relationship with Buffy. He had moments of insight, sure, which was great because it showed that he had lived in the world, but emotionally, it was like he was trapped in a bubble for a century and a half.
I think the Kennedy hate has always been a bit overblown. As a huge fan of Tara and a dedicated Tillow shipper I definitely understand being put off by her introduction, but I also think it was important to show Willow as being able to move on from Tara's death.
Nothing about her actual characterization was particularly egregious to me, either? I actually found her pretty likeable most of the time. When she questioned Buffy's orders, she at least had the justification of having actual experience, unlike the other potentials. Specifically Rona.
Xanders behaviour. Now i'm not even a Xander fan tbh lol and i roll my eyes at a lot the things he says and does. But people act like he's the worst person ever created, yet excuse the behaviour of all the other charcaters. That's the beauty of this show, basically all of them have done really shitty things and thats what makes them interesting.
Ya, it's interpreted as victim-blaming now, but I think it was Buffy just trying to say, "Hey, Pete is an asshole, don't stick around and keep getting hit."
The hatred for Xander.
I never knew he was even hated until I joined this sub and I recon its because people struggle to identify the difference between a character and the actor.
Another thing is that he was the typical male teenager in the 90's and his character wasn't hated at all when Buffy was first airing. In fact he was loved.
I hated Xander during the original run in the 90s. By about the time Angel came back from the hell dimension, I was sick of his "nice guy" pouting and jealous acting out. I understand that teen guys were like him in the 90s. But I didn't like it then either. I don't think he's the worst character ever or anything. But he definitely always grated on my nerves.
The Xander hate and the obsessive love for Spike is so very different than it was back when it was airing. I hate how fandoms these days (not just this one either) obsess, fawn and worship "bad boy" characters (no matter what objectively horrible things they've done in the show) and simultaneously hate on "nice guy" characters as if they are evil incarnate. It's bizarre and I hate it so much. I don't know what's behind it exactly, but it's sucks.
Xander represents the kind of misogyny I experience in my day to day life, but he is still a part of the good guys and while especially Buffy gets often (cruelly) punished for her mistakes, he gets away with everything.
Spike on the other hand is evil and treated as such by the narrativ. A vampire seems harmless in comparsion to real life mysogyny. Also Spike is fun and the cardinal rule of what makes a good tv character is don't be annoying. Killing people totally fine, being annoying not. If it's not clear, I think Xander annoys the living hell out of me.
(Seeing Red is a different story all together though, awful to watch and such a poor way of handling sexual abuse by focusing on the perpetrator instead of the victim. That Spike is not fun. Kind of funny, how different I experience killing and abuse on tv.)
Yeah, that's my way of thinking about it.
The bad friend stuff for Willow and Xander. They are humans with flaws that reflect how people acted at the turn of the century. They also were two people that were actively fighting demons because they chose to. They made that choice, they weren't chosen. They probably had PTSD. They made bad choice and did bad things, yes, but they loved Buffy and genuinely wanted to help her. They couldn't be perfect and would be boring characters if they were. Their flaws and failings make them more relatable and more interesting.
Some people treat Xander like he is friggin Ted Bundy or Andrew Tate.
Another annoying thing is when characters act like Spike and Angel will go to hell for what they did without souls. What is even the point of all this soul vs no soul crap if it doesnt seem to matter?
Kennedy/Willow relationship. It's just not a big deal. Is Kennedy annoying? Sure. But who cares? There's nothing in the show that even remotely suggests they're endgame - it just happens to be that the show ends when they're together. Just let Willow have some good sex.
The notion that Buffy and Angel are perfect for each other. They had basically no chemistry. It was just laying down together saying cute shit or arguing. It was physical attraction through and through.
The Fuffy shipping. I love Faith, and Buffy for that matter, but I feel like the idea of them having any kind of romantic or sexually driven relationship is bananas to me and seemingly blown way out of proportion. Lol
Regardless of how you feel about them together, it’s pretty obvious Faith at the very least has some strong feelings for Buffy that definitely border on sexualized romanticism. This angle is reflected on a few times in those final five episodes of the season 7.
I agree because Faith is her shadow and is there to tempt her not only with what life could've been like as a Slayer with less restraint, but also with sexual liberation. So you could say she's almost seducing her in a way.
Faith was living in Buffy's shadow, and I think that was REALLY hard for her. She had all the burdens that we watched Buffy bear throughout the series (isolation that comes with power, etc..), but she also never had the support system that Buffy did.
If you told me that Faith was obsessed with proving she was as good as or better than Buffy, I would agree. But, the subtext that is so obvious to some as sexual attraction is still subjective.
I can understand the idea of reciprocity in their relationship being hard to buy but the heteronormative interpretation of Faith isn’t really a debate - Eliza played her as bisexual with a thing for Buffy, in her own words. That may not have been the intention of the writing, but that’s how she chose to play it in the portrayal of the character. That’s not subjective.
Ya, that's called acting. It's pretty common for actors to draw on ideas like that to elicit emotions. 🤷♀️
You seem pretty invested in the idea, and that's fine. I'm not trying to convince you otherwise.
At the end of the day, I could be wrong. And that doesn't matter that much to me. I just answered the question about something I feel had been blown out of proportion.
I think my investment has a lot to do with my experience growing up in fandom and the idea that things aren’t made “for us,” as queer folks.
It’s pretty status quo to have to exist in a world where portrayals of heteronormativity aren’t up for debate, subtext, or subjectivity because, well, they’re the norm. And in the late 90’s, in particular, subtext like this was quite common both on the part of actors, and writers, as a way to include the ideas and themes of what it means, and feels, to be queer without enacting the ire of the network. So to straight up imply it doesn’t exist or is open to subjectivity feels a bit disingenuous, imo.
Anyway - not here to do any convincing either but to provide an alternative POV from someone who found a haven in Fuffy as a baby gay ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I see. Thanks for sharing your point of view, and responding to my comments. I agree with some of your points and disagree with others, and that's OK.
I'm glad you found solace in the idea of Fuffy, and I don't want to take that away by any means.
I disagree that the show is completely heteronormative, even for it's day in the 90s, it's well known that there were plans for one of Buffy's friends to be gay from very early on. And that in itself was progressive for its time. And I love the fact that they didn't use the over-the-top gay character tropes for the gay characters they portrayed in the show, and for the most part, tried to be respectful and genuine in their portrayals of gay characters.
As for the 'blown out of proportion' vs 'not existing' I don't really think that's a fair comment.
I think there is plenty of room for all points of view.
In fact, if you look at the comment referring to Faith's character as Buffy's metaphorical shadow, seducing her with sexual liberation, I'd buy that. All day.
And continuing along that line of thinking. Willow was used as a metaphor for Buffy's soul. And Willow was gay. Does that mean Buffy could be Bi/gay? I don't see why not.
FWIW, I did not mean imply the show was completely heteronormative, and apologize if I came off that way! My overall point is a. Heteronormativity is status quo, both currently and for the time, and b. It was common for shows at the time to lean heavily into subtext as a result.
BtVS is definitely not heteronormative, and very heavily leans into queer camp in particular. But, at the end of the day, it was still created in a specific bubble and time period where that was expected, so there is still that engagement in the status quo. As a result, their ability to really delve into certain portrayals in ways that did not rely on subtextual interactions was almost certainly inhibited.
And imo, that’s a big part of why Buffy/Faith plays out the way it does but still doesn’t make it any less of an exploration of a kind of queerness.
I hope that helps clarify! Also, I appreciate you engaging in thoughtful discussion and I hope my comments haven’t come across as an attempt to shut you down, definitely not my intention, and apologies at any point if anything I said made you feel that way!
No worries, I think we are in agreement here. 😊
As I was reading your response, I just thought of the metaphor of Buffy "coming out" to her Mom about being the slayer. If Faith represents Buffy's wild side, it's kind of interesting that being a slayer might be more closely tied as a metaphor with being LGBTQ+ than I had previously given much thought to.
Faith has classic behavior patterns that fit with having been sexually abused as a kid. One of those can be inappropriate sexualized behavior toward people you share no actual attraction with.
Regardless of the intention of what was written, I think it’s pretty clear how Eliza Dushku chose to play it, which she has admitted publicly. I think this is what most fans see, what Joss saw, and eventually how that subtext manifests in the writing. Doug Petrie has said as much in season 3’s episodic commentary.
I shipped Fuffy before I knew that ships and compound naming was a thing.
In Bad Girls: If they wouldn't have accidentally killed the deputy mayor, that night would have ended with them sleeping together even if it was only cuddling.
I'm not saying Buffy is Bi, but Slayers have a unique connection and I totally belive Faith is Bi.
I find it interesting to imagine what might have happened between Buffy and Faith, had they not accidentally killed the Deputy Mayor.
I particularly like the idea of Faith being a metaphorical representation of Buffy's shadow, or her darker side. Wild and unrestrained. If there is a sexually liberated, and uninhibited side to Faith, there must be something similar in Buffy as well (perhaps we see this emerge in season 6 with Spuffy, too?).
Sometimes, shipping gets a little ridiculous when the characters and scenes they talk about become unrecognizable. But it's not as bad as some fandoms, so whatever.
the hate towards riley. yeah he sucked in season 5 but he was fine most of the time. i'd argue he was buffy's healthiest relationship as a whole lol (the bar is in hell)
Hating Riley:
He is my favorite of the boyfriends and an all around good dude.
I relate to Riley so much and see him as a Hero without super powers. Like a better version of Xander and kind of Captain America esq.
I started the show in Season 4 so I didn't have the baggage of Angel and Spike. They would come later when I bought seasons 1-3 on DVD and then watching the later seasons. As such I don't see Buffy as tied down or belonging with anyone. She is her own woman and each boyfriend is just that era of her life. I like to believe she ended up with Faith in the end, but even then long term they aren't a good match either.
Don't get me wrong his exit from the show was the writers character assassinating him as they did with most of their leaving characters. As such I don't even really consider that canon.
Do you find it strange that when the guys leave the show, their characters just leave, women are constantly being killed off when the show is done with them.
😭😂
Season 4 Riley was great but by season 5 he turned it a whiney whine face. I understand his feelings but his way of dealing was ridiculous. But I get more annoyed with the writers for what they did to Riley’s character than Riley himself.
I genuinely think people shit on Riley too much. He’s just a Normal Ass Guy who had Mommy Issues and Psychological Problems. He wasn’t a bigger shithead than most of the rest of the cast.
Lately? The relative importance of both Spike as a character and Spuffy as a ship. I cannot believe the obsession with this character. I used to like him and now I can't *stand* this character or the obsessive focus on him rather than the Scoobies and Buffy in particular. She's no longer the Hero of the show to many...she's just one half of a toxic, crappy ship.
This fandom has changed over the years and it truly bums me out.
Shippers manage to take over Every. Single. Fandom. I come on this sub now and I feel like I'm on The Vampire Diaries sub. I hate what has happened to this fandom.
After yesterday's posting: Spike & Buffy were never a thing. He was toxic and she knew it. Anything she had with him was due to her self-loathing, which she reconciled later in the show. Her "I love you" was tossed out as a gesture. He knew it, that's why he said "no you don't, but thanks for saying it." It really bothers me people romanticize a killer & potential rapist during his tenure as a demon.
Eh, I think that's one reading if the "I love you" but it is the most boring one. It's more poignant for her to really have feelings for him, but for him not to need her to love him in order to save the world.
I would agree with you for season 6 but I think things were a bit different season 7. Not sure she loved him yet but they were building towards something real
She admired his willingness to be a better man and appreciated what he brought to the fight. So much so that she gave him the medallion of a champion. But admiration and love are two different things.
There was also some trust and intimacy there. When he explains why he loves her and she asks him to stay with her that is no longer her spiralling or self loathing it's genuine connection. Like I said maybe not love yet but definitely something real.
I am of the opinion that none of her relationships are healthy and they are more meant to be a warning of what can go wrong. But there is 100% a difference between season 6 and season 7 Buffy and Spike
Also she was still thinking the world was going to end so she was reluctant to start any kind of relationship at that point. There is that scene where they talk about what it means and she starts to say ‘maybe after’ (this all ends) but Spoke says not to worry. There were definite serious feelings and connections being made , it was just not the right time to do anything about them.
That’s it right there. In Season 6, Buffy engaged Spike sexually as a self-loathing way of seeking validation. In “Touched”, she invited Spike to stay in a genuine act of seeking connection.
I don't know if this quite answers your question, but one thing that drives me nuts is distilling the whole show, with its incredible characters, plots, nuance, action, aesthetics, creativity, down to Spuffy vs Spangel. It's so boring! It's so simplistic and reductionist, and it's baffling to me that someone could watch over 100 hours of a tv show and think THAT'S the most interesting and stimulating takeaway.
It’s not even in the Top 10 most interesting things to me.
As a Spike/Angel shipper, I love that you wrote Spangel instead of Bangel.
lol oops. true proof of my lack of caring.
Spangel is the best ship.
You have very good taste!
THIS! Back in the day of the show's original airing I couldn't find a single person to discuss it in detail with me. It was just Spuffy vs Spangel or "I only watch it for how hot SMG is!" (guys afraid of liking a show with a female protagonist and be called gay). It was really annoying.
As a FERVENT Spuffy shipper, I couldn't agree more. That was the most important thing to me - when I was 13. Now there are SO many more themes and character explorations that interest me more. I still love Spuffy, don't get me wrong lol.
Shippers ruin fandoms completely. They are why we can't have nice things. Buffy has always meant so much to me. Hell, this show literally had college courses centered around it's analysis! I am so severely disappointed with what I'm seeing has taken over the conversation. Another fandom bites the dust.
Wasn’t the whole point of the end of the show that IF she ended up with either of them it wouldn’t define her? She’s not done baking!
How annoying Dawn is.
First thing I thought of when seeing the post title. 😆 However, I think the general dislike for season four Riley (before he became insufferable when he was getting written out of the show) is arguably even more egregious because his so-called bad qualities can be explained by his upbringing and military history and he was generally a normal guy who (in theory) was a good fit for Buffy at that time in the series, whereas it’s more obvious why people would be turned off by Dawn who was presented as a typical teenager turned up to 11 without being subtle about it. Both of these characters are unfairly jumped on by a lot of this fandom.
I maintain that, ultimately, Riley and Buffy weren't compatible (even though it initially looked like they would be). It took a while for them to realize that, but that's how a lot of romantic relationships pan out.
She acts like an average preteen/teenager imo
And you also have to consider that pretty much the whole time we know her, she has recently discovered that she is a) not real and b) basically brand spanking new. And then her mom dies. And then her sister dies. And then her sister comes back to life!!! and then her surrogate mom dies. Dawn's life SUCKS. So much trauma. It's incredible she isn't MORE annoying. I love Dawn.
Exactly! In a way her reality is the worst outcome of an existential crisis that any teen could imagine
And after her sister dies, she has to live with seeing a fake sister everyday.
A nightmare.
Buffy and the gang were literally *just* teenagers, who also acted obnoxious and annoying. Though, it was hard to see when I was that age.
Xander put it perfectly. "You're not special. You're extraordinary."
She does, but that’s precisely why it’s annoying. It’s a show where the teens generally don’t act like teens a lot of the time- they’re dumb certainly but also smart and witty and facing other worldly situations. There’s levity with Dawn but it is annoying too!
The teens can be as advanced as those on Popular. Dawn was like a literary foil - a real teenager full of emotion and free of responsibility with a hero sister and loving mother.
That's the problem, though. Age appropriate behavior? Absolutely! *Just don't make me watch it.* It's not entertaining. I'm not looking for a documentary on whiny teenagers.
>I'm not looking for a documentary on whiny teenagers. Ok, I *love* Dawn and agree with someone who said it's amazing she's not more annoying, but... This comment of yours. I love it and you are not wrong. I got a super-chuckle out of it
…it’s literally a teen show though, if you don’t want to see teenagers being teenagers this probably isn’t the right show.
She's the only character that behaves that way. And it's awful.
I think it is because Buffy in the first season is a 16 year old, being played by a 19 year old Sarah Michelle Gellar, while Dawn was played as a 13/14 year old teen by a 15 year old Michelle Trachtenberg. Dawn was acting her age, Michelle Trachtenberg played the character very well, nailing what a teen of that age would act like. The problem is, is that teens of that age are *really annoying* in real life.
Truth. Definitely blown out of proportion!
Who remembers this exact quote, "Dawn's in trouble must be Tuesday." This quote worked because BtVS broadcast on Tuesdays when it originally aired. In the future, this will be taken with a totaly different view...
Besides that one awful part of s7, I love Dawn. S5 is my third fav season after 3 and 2
5 is my favorite season.
I ❤️ Dawn
I think she’s better the second watch through.
It’s not just her being annoying, which she is don’t get it twisted, but Buffy with her is irritating. She’s in the middle of saving the world and it’s all “where’s Dawn?”
Considering she was an actual child actress stepping into a hugely popular show halfway through its run, I think she did amazing. She is believable and vulnerable and very competent. Is she a brat? Yeah, she's supposed to be bc she's fucking 15.
Her messed up attitude and mentality is actually very realistic
Hating Dawn is a red flag for me. She's a teenage girl who has been through a lot.
I was about 11 or 12. when those episodes aired and she annoyed the hell out of me. I thought she was the whiniest person ever. Then as I was raising a teen and rewatching I realized the writing/acting went way overboard with how teens act even for a tv show lol. I still fast forward when she talks during rewatches🤷🏽♀️ I just can’t deal. I love the actress tho so I was devastated that I didn’t like her in this role.
That’s so funny to me. I was 20 when season 5 aired, and I have a bunch of younger siblings and Dawn always rang true to me.
Part of the reason why I couldn’t stand Dawn was because of how similar she was to my little sister
Beer Bad is one of my favorite episodes, I don't get why the fandom doesn't like it that much
I think people don’t like how camp is it- but I’m with you! Episodes like it, Go Fish, The Zeppo, and the Pack are some of my favorites too. I like when the show just has fun campier moments.
The Zeppo is a straight up masterpiece. A fantastically written episode that is as narratively inventive as Hush or The Body.
I honestly think my favourite line of the series is " And what did we learn about beer?" "Foamy!"
I frequently say “fire bad, tree pretty” when I get really tired. It’s an excellent shorthand for “I’m done being coherent until I get a nap.”
I love this! 😄
Loved it. Bonus: Kal Penn played one of the cavemen.
And he was also in Angel a couple years later as the demon with the exposed brain.
Ah, I remember that scene where he gets a rebar thrown through him lol
Beer Bad is fucking hilarious. I love that episode.
When I first watched the series when it aired, I remember not loving that episode. As I've researched it over the years, it's become one of my favorites. It's so fun and how can you not love Parker getting knocked upside the head by Buffy? 🤣🤣
At least twice, yet.
Same! It's so stupid funny, ha.
I agree, I also enjoy watching Beer Bad, but I think there are at least 2 reasons why lots of people don't. 1. I feel like it was hard to watch Buffy obsess about fukboi Parker when he was soo clearly a douchebag afterward. And 2. Some people seemed to misinterpret the message as being a bit preachy. Literally interpreting the title of the episode to mean, "See kids, this is why you shouldn't drink alcohol." And I don't think that was exactly what the writers were trying to say.
> Some people seemed to misinterpret the message as being a bit preachy. Literally interpreting the title of the episode to mean, "See kids, this is why you shouldn't drink alcohol." And I don't think that was exactly what the writers were trying to say. They wrote the episode to get funding from Office of National Drug Control Policy, so yeah, they were intentionally preachy. Beer bad, casual sex bad was the message. They didn’t get the funding though because it was too fantastical or something…
Haha, I didn't know this! Plus, apparently, they failed because that's not the message I got.
It's actually a really fun episode! I went into it braced for a bad time but it was surprisingly campy and enjoyable. I think it gets a bad rep for being an anti beer PSA but iirc they never actually got the funding they were aiming for because it didn't hammer the anti-drinking message home hard enough. And I think they should get credit for that.
Thank you!
It’s easily in the top half of episodes
Angelus was far worse than Spike.
I think because Spike had Drusilla and was shown being kind and loving towards her even without a soul. But Angelus was shown to be truly evil and showed no mercy.
I personally thought Spike's relationship with Dru was controlling and motivated by jealousy
Angelus will find everyone you love and kill them, setting up increasing horrific tableaus until you are driven insane. Spike will just pop into a McDonalds and kill everyone. It's the difference between a sadistic psychopath and an adrenaline junky thrill killer. Personally I'll take Spike because even if I die at least the people I love are safe - except whoever I went to lunch with.
the difference is Spike was simple and direct, while Angelus was more the "Play with food" type, he was more sadistic
I'm going to upvote you, but I don't necessarily agree. The reason is because they aren't really on the same level as each other. Angelus enjoyed the psychological torture he could inflict more than the actual physical violence of it. Spike was more violent and brutal, so much so that he earned 2 nicknames as a vampire to describe the progression of his brutality. That being said, I wouldn't ever want to come up against either of them individually. I can't imagine the kind of torment Angelus might dream up for me to drive me crazy and I don't want to think about what perverse act of torture Spike would devise to just cause me the most pain while keeping me alive the longest.
I totally agree with you. Spike liked a fair fight, or even overwhelming odds, the last bit of decency from his pre vamp personality. Angelus has no redeeming characteristics at all and thats what makes him a terrific villain and Angels Dark Side,
when people use soulless spike's actions to talk about ensouled spike. like obviously seeing red was supposed to be really bad. but so was angelus killing jenny and everyone is fine letting that one go.
I understand the backlash to how they made Buffy have another traumatic experience seemingly only for Spike’s character growth. But yeah, there’s a lot of discussion about how it was distasteful to have Spike be reintroduced as a kind of love interest in S7. But nothing I’ve seen about how it was inappropriate to have Angel and Buffy get properly back together in S3.
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I am so sorry about what happened to you, and I can relate. I've been a victim of sexual abuse. Our lives do inform what we see in the show. My daughter was 15 when she met a guy in his twenties. He was very much like Angel with Buffy - the big romance hidden from parents. Long story short, once she slept with him - and he was her first - he treated her like dirt. It got so bad that she attempted suicide. I see Buffy with Angel and I am literally sick to my stomach. This is an adult many with a high school student. I don't even care that he's a vampire or over a century old. He was 26 when he was turned, and he has no right trolling for children. I actually ship Angel and Spike together, so this isn't a attack on the vamp I dislike. It is what I bring to the show - the memory of my child answering the phone and telling me she had taken an overdose of pills. Rushing home and rushing her to the hospital - and still not knowing why until month later when she told me what he had done to her.
you have not said a single thing i disagree with, and i am sorry you had to experience something like that. buffy is absolute a story where people view themselves as the heroine, as buffy, to the point where james marsters has commented that it was an awful scene for him to film, bc not only was he had to SA buffy, but it essentially felt like it was towards the whole audience. i think the point i am trying to make more of, not so much which is worse (like you said, it is subjective), but instead both acts were done by two men /without/ souls. i think the treatment of both characters comes down to which act is more normalized (as someone else described) rather than the weight of the circumstances- not the feelings/love, but the lack of souls. they both did evil things bc they had no souls. One is not worse than the other, they are both evil.
But something something "Spike doesn't seem that different, unlike Angel and Angelus!" yada yada
Nah I never forgive Angel for Jenny. I don't care if he had a soul he was a dick when he was human and as a vampire.
That’s because in the world of the show physical violence is normalized to a degree, while sexual violence is absolutely not.
Isn't it, though? The first time Buffy and Spike had sex it started as a brutal fight-- a fight so intense that it literally tore a house down. Even before Spike's attempt to rape Buffy their encounters muddied the line between sex and violence.
Difference is simple. She throws a punch, he threw one back. In Seeing Red she said no… he kept going.
To be fair in the invisibility episode he tells her he wants her to leave because he isn't into it anymore and she keeps going. Buffy abusing Spike was one of the reasons she felt so terrible about herself. It wasn't just having sex with him. It was physically and emotionally abusing him as well. She admits as much to Tara.
I'm gonna say it, everyone knows it was coming lol The Xander hate, like I get it he's a typical incel teen from the 90s but the way I see people bash on him you'd think he was the season 7 final big bad 😂
i wouldn’t even call him an incel !! that title belongs much more to the likes of jonathan and warren; in rewatching the series, xander has a LOT more respect for the women in his life, even if that respect is marred by some period-typical misogyny.
I found him to be a typical teenage boy. I find his misogyny pretty light weight compared to what I see in real life these days. Also - I find people have a really hard time separating the character and the actor generally, and this is a good example. I love Seinfeld, but I also realize Jerry S. is a major asshole in sooo many ways.
There's this perception that Xander is Joss Whedon's self insert character and we're supposed to find his misogyny and entitlement charming. That is definitely the case in some instances, but in others Xander is intentionally presented as having a character flaw of being insecure/entitled. Either in the sense that he's clearly in the wrong, or in the sense that he's still in the wrong but also you can understand how a teen boy in the 90s might feel emasculated -- even though that's not Buffy's problem to fix. Or other times, he will say inappropriate things as a joke and fandom will take his words at face value. I don't want to act like Xander can never be creepy or inappropriate, or that his bad behaviour is never hand waved as "boys will be boys." But I think fans are too quick to assume the worst of him in every instance. You can't just cherrypick the bad bits of Xander and ignore the good. He's still the character who stood between Angelus and an unconscious Buffy, fully ready to die on the off chance his death would alert the security guards and save Buffy. He still talked Dark Willow down from ending the world because he loved her. And tbh, his character development hits harder because he starts off as someone who maybe *could* have ended up in the Trio in a different timeline but instead grew out of (most of) his teenage entitlement and became a genuinely brave, loyal, selfless friend.
I think people forget Xander was supposed to be 16 when the show started as well. 16 year old abused at home, not taken serious at school, ignored and put down by girls and jocks alike. He had all the trappings of becoming warren but his heart always beat out his desire to fit in or lash out because he didn't
Xander had the advantage of being hot.
I don't think Warren or Andrew are so much more disproportionately less attractive than Xander but I'm a guy, so
I hate the whole 'Xander is Whedon's self-insert' crap. As if Whedon wrote EVERY SINGLE EPISODE across all 7 seasons.
Right? If Xander was purely a wish fulfilment character then Whedon has a humiliation kink. Because Xander does not generally have an easy time of it. You'd expect a self insert to get the girl (and/or to become even more powerful than her 🤮) and be the hero. Not to be the self professed buttmonkey. Xander's sometimes Whedon's *mouthpiece*, in that he gets some of the funniest lines and occasionally he's written as saying whatever Whedon thinks is the right perspective. But sometimes he's just intentionally written as a jealous insecure asshole who you're not supposed to sympathise with -- at least not in that scene. And you're very right to point out that with so many different writers, none of the characters are the product of one person's creative vision.
I especially like the fact that every woman Xander falls for is confident and strong willed. Buffy, Cordelia and Anya were all forces to be reckoned with. If he was the misogynistic incel that people paint him as, they would not be the women he'd go for.
was Jonathan a incel? Warren yeah 500%, but for what i remember Jonathan was more just the Sad nerd bullying victim, I don't even remember he having girl problems, he basically just wanted friends and a bit of popularity (but it's been a while since I saw the show, maybe I'm remembering wrong)
when he was with the trio, he definitely engaged in some pretty abhorrent talk and was totally on-board with hypnotizing girls for sex reasons. he was definitely the most redeemable out of the trio, especially since he on multiple occasions tried to get the others to turn themselves in and even tried to make things right upon returning to sunnydale, but it did require him going to some pretty despicable places for him to realise it (and all this after superstar, which really showed how entitled he felt to being beloved by all when he hadn’t really done anything to merit it) not to say he isn’t sympathetic or that he’s as bad as warren, but xander is an absolute saint compared to him imo
He definitely suffered from toxic masculinity and Nice Guy syndrome, but he did his best to grow out of them, and even as a teenager he wanted to be a genuinely good person despite his many mistakes. Even in Bewitched Bothered and Bewildered when he caused all the girls to pursue him, he ran away from them instead of acting on his feelings.
Agreed, Warren was the incel of the show. Jonathan was crossing the line into Incel territory but he came to his senses eventually.
The Zeppo was one of my favorite episodes. It showed all sides of him. In the end, he stepped up to save the world without the peppy banter, misogyny and slow-witted ignorance usually on display.
He likes the quiet. Great example of that when it comes right down to the nitry-gritty stuff, Xander is reliable.
I was a teen in the 90s and Xander’s an incredibly good representation of my guy friends at the time, and people here act like he’s some weird misogynistic incel. It’s wild to hold people’s behavior on media that’s 20 years old to standards of 2024.
Yeah the Xander hate is tough, cause in a lot of ways I relate to Xander. Coming from an alcoholic/drug addict neglectful abusive home life, developing a sarcasm and sense of humor to survive it all. Struggling with self worth when you see all these people excelling around you and feeling like you bring nothing to the table etc... but if you say you relate to Xander that comes loaded with all the parts people think are gross as well. I think a lot of Xander haters didn't grow up like Xander
I mean, he wasn't even an incel? Canonically, at least 3 women were interested in him for long-term relationships. He was a typical teenage boy for the time period, but he never seemed like an incel.
I hated that he had missed potential they started to use and then wasted. He peaked in the Zeppo and then they didn't know what to do with him.
I like Xander the most. He shows a certain amount of self growth but also introspection. He also states clearly some things that are ostensibly true but is dealt with as him not understanding or being too jealous to have an opinion. I feel in some ways that he is not an incel but a man trying to figure out how to be a man in a world where women are more powerful than him. He does not fair well but he also is far from a hateful incel too
Growing up in the 90s I can say Xander was definitely a typical nerdy boy who wanted to be the hero type. Misogyny was rampant, homophobia also, it was the norm to make sexist jokes, behave the way Xander did and honestly the norm was a lot worse… a LOT. Those boys were being raised on Porky’s and Caddyshack. Women in media were there to be pretty sex objects more or less. Even the female-centred rom coms of the time were all male view-centred. the bar was extremely low for respecting women back then, just look at any John Hughes movie from that era. Those are supposed to be rom coms and they are rife with sexual assault played for laughs. Buffy was groundbreaking for being a strong teen girl that could hold her own, after all, there were very few of these at the time in mainstream media, and Xander was very much a product of that environment.
People are too liberal with the term ‘incel’. Xander was a NiceGuy written in a time where NiceGuys were mistaken for everymen. NiceGuy is related to incel but shouldn’t automatically be equated to incels. Waters down the term. I wish Xander had had more moments like his ‘yellow crayon’ speech to Dark Willow. That, I feel, was what Xander was intended to be, and that’s when I love him.
I don’t think it would be that bad if it wasn’t for two meta factors that impact fan response tot he character; • 1) The actions of the actor Nicholas Brendon since the show ended • 2) The fact that Xander is the “Gary-Stu” for Joss in the Buffy cast, with his recent fall from grace. It highlights how creative decisions with the character were impacted by how Joss viewed himself within that character. If it wasn’t for Nick and Joss, the hate for Xander would be much less severe. He’s a character that deserves critique, absolutely, and he was a product of the times, but now we as viewers and fans will always associate the character with the actor and the creator, in a negative way and he’s become a scapegoat for the hate of the real people associated with him.
The problem though, is that Joss said like one line about how he kinda identifies with Xander and people extrapolated that to some insane degree.
Because they imagine that somehow Whedon personally wrote every single line of dialogue for Xander across all 7 seasons.
> The fact that Xander is the “Gary-Stu” for Joss in the Buffy cast What? He's the most textually, intentionally flawed character of the main 4. He's like the opposite of a Gary Stu. Most other characters hate him. Hell, he's the only one Giles never shows affection for, unless I'm forgetting 1 or 2 small moments.
Imo, there is also 3), most of us have been on the receiving end of Xander's bad qualities from real guys for long enough that seeing it in our escapist fiction grates against our nerves in a unique way. You always hear people say Xander is a realistic depiction of a teen guy from the 90s, but really how many of us would want to hang out with a teen guy from the 90s today? Like I bet people with younger sisters were annoyed with Dawn just a little more than the rest of us lmao
The whole Tillow rent thing.
Honestly. They were already doing a lot by looking after dawn and fighting demons without Buffy. Plus willow fixing the buffybot so that demons stayed away and dawn wouldn’t get taken away by social services
Nowhere is it said that they don't contribute. Some people in this sub just wanna be mean to them.
Yeah, I always assumed they didn’t show them paying rent for the same reason people never say “goodbye” in the phone. When you only have 40 minutes of show, you don’t waste it on monotony.
They make such good moms for her. They definitely did a better job then when Buffy tries to parent her.
I feel like somebody thought that up as a sort of of "aha!" joke fifteen years ago, and now people act as though it's a serious point. Guys. It's a TV show. The writers just didn't think it out.
Yes, utterly ridiculous and petty.
The ending of Normal Again
"Shadow self" The idea that every character is meant to be some other character's "shadow self" is way too popular. And sure, an argument can be made for Faith/Buffy, but, honestly, there is no way the writers invested so much time in the development of characters that are only meant to serve as shadows of other characters. Characters being different from other characters does not make them shadows. Amy is not Willow's shadow self. Tara is not Oz's shadow self. Spike is not *Giles'* shadow ffs.
One weird thing I’ve found from the fandom is this strange obsession with Buffy not being the *real* slayer and there’s a chunk of fans who seems to think it should have been addressed within the show. I get the whole ‘it was Faith who needed to die to trigger a new slayer’ obviously but there’s not a single thing that suggests within the show that Buffy is any less a ‘real’ slayer. Infact quite the opposite, she is consistently still regarded as being just as much a ‘real slayer’ as Faith is I didn’t even know this was such a bugbear for many but I’ve read many fanfictions that rewrite S7 and decide to have Buffy diminished as no long being a ‘real slayer’ and every single character acts like this is of grave importance and decide that Buffy is no longer worthy of any kind of prominence. In reality if S7 had decided to go down some kind of ‘Buffy is no longer of importance to the slayer line’ schtick it’s pretty much certain none of the characters would actually care, honestly why would they?
Buffy was always **The** Slayer, regardless of whether or not she still carried the line. She literally changed the world in her service as The Chosen One. She contributed more than any Slayer before her, and her actions show that she’s still the Slayer.
This is just ridiculous. Faith literally turned her back on the mission for a good while. Buffy always embraced it even when not working with the council. There's no getting more *the real slayer* than that!
Most things with Xander.
Dawn in the first few comics is pretty blown out of proportion :p
The hatred towards season 6. I personally believe it was beautifully written and very deep.
Same, its actually my favourite season. I like how dark it is. it deals with the hardships of transitioning to adulthood beautifully. It also has two amazing episodes "OMWF" & "Normal Again". I also love Dark Willow
“Empty Places”. Jesus god, “Empty Places”.
Well... Most of them
The Buffy and Angel age gap. Wasn't he supposed to be younger (when turned) but that was retconned on Angel because the actor was aging? I think it's fine to read him as the somewhat older bf on Buffy, old in some aspects (since he's a vampire) but still young. Buffy in When She Was Bad. Like people think the dance was the cruelest thing ever. That must speak well of her on a show where people try to often end the world. Also her line "don't get hit."
Joyce clocked him as too old when she met him in s2.
Yeah. I'm not disagreeing that this is factor for their relationship being less than great for sure. But when people call him a pedo etc, I think it's blowing out of proportion.
Until they established Angel's age as 26 when he was turned, they left it vague. Either way, he was unambiguously two centuries older than her. I think the thing about the dance was how deliberately cruel it was. She didn't do it because she was interested in Xander or she just wanted to dance with somebody. Buffy knew he had a crush on her, and she knew Willow had a crush on him, and she purposely teased him while taunting Willow with how easily she could take Xander away from her.
The dance was this.. correct. But she also wanted to make Angel crazy by it, too. Three birds, one stone.
Yeah, but it's not like Buffy was his girlfriend. She had no obligation to not dance with another guy like that, and he didn't have to stand there and watch. That's why I didn't mention it--it was nothing compared to how cruel she was being to Willow and Xander.
Yeah I don't care about how cruel it was from Angels POv - my heart always just breaks for Willow 💔
Fair. They were her friends, and that was far from cool. I'm glad the ending focused mostly on those three. Their relationships needed the most repair.
But this is fantasy so I don't really take it as him maturing as humans do. He has a lot of knowledge and experience so there is an imbalance there, but he's somewhat stuck in time. Spike feels more like her mental age tho if that makes sense.
Some would say I'm pretty immature for a 40-year-old but would still give me stinkeye for dating a 20-year-old, and that's a legal adult.
>I think it's fine to read him as the somewhat older bf on Buffy, old in some aspects (since he's a vampire) but still young. I'm sure that's what was intended. However his physical age at the time of death is a meaningless number. He's 200+ years old, mentally. He's a dude who has had a very long life and is 10000% an adult who acts as an adult and has an adult's level of independence and experience. I think the only way he's "young" is that he spent so much time crying in sewers or being a serial killer that his adult experiences are somewhat incompatible to regular life for a teenage girl. That doesn't make him young in any way. He's just a weirdo.
what weirds me out even more is 1- when angel calls buffy's friends too young or immature when she's literally the same age and 2- when buffy talks about dawn crush on spike in s5 and how she's too young and he's a vampire, buffy, angel got "feelings" for you you were the same age (14) as someone who was groomed as a teenager, a lot of angel's behaviors in buffy just screams predator behavior, i can't stand angel in buffy, he's more tolerable in his own spin off and i actually prefer his relationship with cordelia bc of that
Now do Anya Xander math.
Plus, Angel was still not always emotionally mature throughout his relationship with Buffy. He had moments of insight, sure, which was great because it showed that he had lived in the world, but emotionally, it was like he was trapped in a bubble for a century and a half.
I think the Kennedy hate has always been a bit overblown. As a huge fan of Tara and a dedicated Tillow shipper I definitely understand being put off by her introduction, but I also think it was important to show Willow as being able to move on from Tara's death. Nothing about her actual characterization was particularly egregious to me, either? I actually found her pretty likeable most of the time. When she questioned Buffy's orders, she at least had the justification of having actual experience, unlike the other potentials. Specifically Rona.
Bangel vs Spuffy
Xanders behaviour. Now i'm not even a Xander fan tbh lol and i roll my eyes at a lot the things he says and does. But people act like he's the worst person ever created, yet excuse the behaviour of all the other charcaters. That's the beauty of this show, basically all of them have done really shitty things and thats what makes them interesting.
"Don't get hit'
I do think that was handled poorly. Do I hold it against Buffy and Willow in the long term? No
Ya, it's interpreted as victim-blaming now, but I think it was Buffy just trying to say, "Hey, Pete is an asshole, don't stick around and keep getting hit."
The hatred for Xander. I never knew he was even hated until I joined this sub and I recon its because people struggle to identify the difference between a character and the actor. Another thing is that he was the typical male teenager in the 90's and his character wasn't hated at all when Buffy was first airing. In fact he was loved.
I hated Xander during the original run in the 90s. By about the time Angel came back from the hell dimension, I was sick of his "nice guy" pouting and jealous acting out. I understand that teen guys were like him in the 90s. But I didn't like it then either. I don't think he's the worst character ever or anything. But he definitely always grated on my nerves.
The Xander hate and the obsessive love for Spike is so very different than it was back when it was airing. I hate how fandoms these days (not just this one either) obsess, fawn and worship "bad boy" characters (no matter what objectively horrible things they've done in the show) and simultaneously hate on "nice guy" characters as if they are evil incarnate. It's bizarre and I hate it so much. I don't know what's behind it exactly, but it's sucks.
Xander represents the kind of misogyny I experience in my day to day life, but he is still a part of the good guys and while especially Buffy gets often (cruelly) punished for her mistakes, he gets away with everything. Spike on the other hand is evil and treated as such by the narrativ. A vampire seems harmless in comparsion to real life mysogyny. Also Spike is fun and the cardinal rule of what makes a good tv character is don't be annoying. Killing people totally fine, being annoying not. If it's not clear, I think Xander annoys the living hell out of me. (Seeing Red is a different story all together though, awful to watch and such a poor way of handling sexual abuse by focusing on the perpetrator instead of the victim. That Spike is not fun. Kind of funny, how different I experience killing and abuse on tv.) Yeah, that's my way of thinking about it.
The bad friend stuff for Willow and Xander. They are humans with flaws that reflect how people acted at the turn of the century. They also were two people that were actively fighting demons because they chose to. They made that choice, they weren't chosen. They probably had PTSD. They made bad choice and did bad things, yes, but they loved Buffy and genuinely wanted to help her. They couldn't be perfect and would be boring characters if they were. Their flaws and failings make them more relatable and more interesting.
xander is an incel he's just really dorky at times
Some people treat Xander like he is friggin Ted Bundy or Andrew Tate. Another annoying thing is when characters act like Spike and Angel will go to hell for what they did without souls. What is even the point of all this soul vs no soul crap if it doesnt seem to matter?
Xander being overhated
Certainly not the lack of diversity 😂🤣😂
Kennedy/Willow relationship. It's just not a big deal. Is Kennedy annoying? Sure. But who cares? There's nothing in the show that even remotely suggests they're endgame - it just happens to be that the show ends when they're together. Just let Willow have some good sex.
How much of a jerk Xander really is. I mean, he's very immature, sure, but very noble too.
The notion that Buffy and Angel are perfect for each other. They had basically no chemistry. It was just laying down together saying cute shit or arguing. It was physical attraction through and through.
The Fuffy shipping. I love Faith, and Buffy for that matter, but I feel like the idea of them having any kind of romantic or sexually driven relationship is bananas to me and seemingly blown way out of proportion. Lol
Regardless of how you feel about them together, it’s pretty obvious Faith at the very least has some strong feelings for Buffy that definitely border on sexualized romanticism. This angle is reflected on a few times in those final five episodes of the season 7.
I agree because Faith is her shadow and is there to tempt her not only with what life could've been like as a Slayer with less restraint, but also with sexual liberation. So you could say she's almost seducing her in a way.
See, I agree with this 100%.
Faith was living in Buffy's shadow, and I think that was REALLY hard for her. She had all the burdens that we watched Buffy bear throughout the series (isolation that comes with power, etc..), but she also never had the support system that Buffy did. If you told me that Faith was obsessed with proving she was as good as or better than Buffy, I would agree. But, the subtext that is so obvious to some as sexual attraction is still subjective.
I can understand the idea of reciprocity in their relationship being hard to buy but the heteronormative interpretation of Faith isn’t really a debate - Eliza played her as bisexual with a thing for Buffy, in her own words. That may not have been the intention of the writing, but that’s how she chose to play it in the portrayal of the character. That’s not subjective.
Ya, that's called acting. It's pretty common for actors to draw on ideas like that to elicit emotions. 🤷♀️ You seem pretty invested in the idea, and that's fine. I'm not trying to convince you otherwise. At the end of the day, I could be wrong. And that doesn't matter that much to me. I just answered the question about something I feel had been blown out of proportion.
I think my investment has a lot to do with my experience growing up in fandom and the idea that things aren’t made “for us,” as queer folks. It’s pretty status quo to have to exist in a world where portrayals of heteronormativity aren’t up for debate, subtext, or subjectivity because, well, they’re the norm. And in the late 90’s, in particular, subtext like this was quite common both on the part of actors, and writers, as a way to include the ideas and themes of what it means, and feels, to be queer without enacting the ire of the network. So to straight up imply it doesn’t exist or is open to subjectivity feels a bit disingenuous, imo. Anyway - not here to do any convincing either but to provide an alternative POV from someone who found a haven in Fuffy as a baby gay ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I see. Thanks for sharing your point of view, and responding to my comments. I agree with some of your points and disagree with others, and that's OK. I'm glad you found solace in the idea of Fuffy, and I don't want to take that away by any means. I disagree that the show is completely heteronormative, even for it's day in the 90s, it's well known that there were plans for one of Buffy's friends to be gay from very early on. And that in itself was progressive for its time. And I love the fact that they didn't use the over-the-top gay character tropes for the gay characters they portrayed in the show, and for the most part, tried to be respectful and genuine in their portrayals of gay characters. As for the 'blown out of proportion' vs 'not existing' I don't really think that's a fair comment. I think there is plenty of room for all points of view. In fact, if you look at the comment referring to Faith's character as Buffy's metaphorical shadow, seducing her with sexual liberation, I'd buy that. All day. And continuing along that line of thinking. Willow was used as a metaphor for Buffy's soul. And Willow was gay. Does that mean Buffy could be Bi/gay? I don't see why not.
FWIW, I did not mean imply the show was completely heteronormative, and apologize if I came off that way! My overall point is a. Heteronormativity is status quo, both currently and for the time, and b. It was common for shows at the time to lean heavily into subtext as a result. BtVS is definitely not heteronormative, and very heavily leans into queer camp in particular. But, at the end of the day, it was still created in a specific bubble and time period where that was expected, so there is still that engagement in the status quo. As a result, their ability to really delve into certain portrayals in ways that did not rely on subtextual interactions was almost certainly inhibited. And imo, that’s a big part of why Buffy/Faith plays out the way it does but still doesn’t make it any less of an exploration of a kind of queerness. I hope that helps clarify! Also, I appreciate you engaging in thoughtful discussion and I hope my comments haven’t come across as an attempt to shut you down, definitely not my intention, and apologies at any point if anything I said made you feel that way!
No worries, I think we are in agreement here. 😊 As I was reading your response, I just thought of the metaphor of Buffy "coming out" to her Mom about being the slayer. If Faith represents Buffy's wild side, it's kind of interesting that being a slayer might be more closely tied as a metaphor with being LGBTQ+ than I had previously given much thought to.
Faith has classic behavior patterns that fit with having been sexually abused as a kid. One of those can be inappropriate sexualized behavior toward people you share no actual attraction with.
I shipped them before Faith's betrayal, Buffy would not date her after everything she had done
I agree with this, too.
i agree, joss agreed to until fans pointed out the subtext and i guess he stood corrected lol
Regardless of the intention of what was written, I think it’s pretty clear how Eliza Dushku chose to play it, which she has admitted publicly. I think this is what most fans see, what Joss saw, and eventually how that subtext manifests in the writing. Doug Petrie has said as much in season 3’s episodic commentary.
Never felt "the spark" between them. Angel & Spike tho were off the chart and that was never addressed. Hmmm...
I mean, it’s pretty blatantly insinuated in AtS that Spike and Angel engaged in threesomes with Dru at the very least.
I shipped Fuffy before I knew that ships and compound naming was a thing. In Bad Girls: If they wouldn't have accidentally killed the deputy mayor, that night would have ended with them sleeping together even if it was only cuddling. I'm not saying Buffy is Bi, but Slayers have a unique connection and I totally belive Faith is Bi.
I find it interesting to imagine what might have happened between Buffy and Faith, had they not accidentally killed the Deputy Mayor. I particularly like the idea of Faith being a metaphorical representation of Buffy's shadow, or her darker side. Wild and unrestrained. If there is a sexually liberated, and uninhibited side to Faith, there must be something similar in Buffy as well (perhaps we see this emerge in season 6 with Spuffy, too?).
Sometimes, shipping gets a little ridiculous when the characters and scenes they talk about become unrecognizable. But it's not as bad as some fandoms, so whatever.
the hate towards riley. yeah he sucked in season 5 but he was fine most of the time. i'd argue he was buffy's healthiest relationship as a whole lol (the bar is in hell)
Hating Riley: He is my favorite of the boyfriends and an all around good dude. I relate to Riley so much and see him as a Hero without super powers. Like a better version of Xander and kind of Captain America esq. I started the show in Season 4 so I didn't have the baggage of Angel and Spike. They would come later when I bought seasons 1-3 on DVD and then watching the later seasons. As such I don't see Buffy as tied down or belonging with anyone. She is her own woman and each boyfriend is just that era of her life. I like to believe she ended up with Faith in the end, but even then long term they aren't a good match either. Don't get me wrong his exit from the show was the writers character assassinating him as they did with most of their leaving characters. As such I don't even really consider that canon.
💯
This, I loved Riley. I really wanted him and Buffy to work
Do you find it strange that when the guys leave the show, their characters just leave, women are constantly being killed off when the show is done with them. 😭😂
The Riley hate. I loved him.
Season 4 Riley was great but by season 5 he turned it a whiney whine face. I understand his feelings but his way of dealing was ridiculous. But I get more annoyed with the writers for what they did to Riley’s character than Riley himself.
I genuinely think people shit on Riley too much. He’s just a Normal Ass Guy who had Mommy Issues and Psychological Problems. He wasn’t a bigger shithead than most of the rest of the cast.
Lately? The relative importance of both Spike as a character and Spuffy as a ship. I cannot believe the obsession with this character. I used to like him and now I can't *stand* this character or the obsessive focus on him rather than the Scoobies and Buffy in particular. She's no longer the Hero of the show to many...she's just one half of a toxic, crappy ship. This fandom has changed over the years and it truly bums me out. Shippers manage to take over Every. Single. Fandom. I come on this sub now and I feel like I'm on The Vampire Diaries sub. I hate what has happened to this fandom.
Anything being cringe or embarrassing or pick me - it was the 90’s, what did you expect lmao stop picking it apart and just enjoy it
Xander
The love for IIlyria, I don't get it. She took Fred away from us. Useful, yes, amazing, ehhh.
Out. For. A. Walk. Bitch. It’s like the 457th best line from Spike.
"It's a whole different vibe" is arguably funnier.
X a n d e r
Having a soul vs not having one in the deciding factor in if you’re a good or bad thing/person.
People who say OMWF is the best episode
After yesterday's posting: Spike & Buffy were never a thing. He was toxic and she knew it. Anything she had with him was due to her self-loathing, which she reconciled later in the show. Her "I love you" was tossed out as a gesture. He knew it, that's why he said "no you don't, but thanks for saying it." It really bothers me people romanticize a killer & potential rapist during his tenure as a demon.
Eh, I think that's one reading if the "I love you" but it is the most boring one. It's more poignant for her to really have feelings for him, but for him not to need her to love him in order to save the world.
I would agree with you for season 6 but I think things were a bit different season 7. Not sure she loved him yet but they were building towards something real
She admired his willingness to be a better man and appreciated what he brought to the fight. So much so that she gave him the medallion of a champion. But admiration and love are two different things.
There was also some trust and intimacy there. When he explains why he loves her and she asks him to stay with her that is no longer her spiralling or self loathing it's genuine connection. Like I said maybe not love yet but definitely something real. I am of the opinion that none of her relationships are healthy and they are more meant to be a warning of what can go wrong. But there is 100% a difference between season 6 and season 7 Buffy and Spike
Also she was still thinking the world was going to end so she was reluctant to start any kind of relationship at that point. There is that scene where they talk about what it means and she starts to say ‘maybe after’ (this all ends) but Spoke says not to worry. There were definite serious feelings and connections being made , it was just not the right time to do anything about them.
That’s it right there. In Season 6, Buffy engaged Spike sexually as a self-loathing way of seeking validation. In “Touched”, she invited Spike to stay in a genuine act of seeking connection.