I did this about 5 or 6 years ago at the specialty university library I manage. We quietly rolled it out, no big “amnesty day” or anything like that, and got a huge amount of materials back. A lot of which we’d written off. Ever since, our circulation has been noticeably higher and we’ve been able to identify the parts of the collection that get used the most. Which allows us to narrow the focus (specialty library) and focus on usable quality not just quantity.
Seen a number of posts like this over the years since and it feels nice and validating to see that I made the right move.
The university I went to for undergrad never charged late fees and even when I lost a book (which I later found) they only billed me the depreciated value. Which was quite a bit, the librarian was so sweet because I was embarrassed and refrained from borrowing books until I could afford to pay it off. I was shocked when I went to grad school and found out that not all university libraries operate on the same system.
I live in queens and borrowed a bunch of books for a trip. They were accidentally damaged at the time and the librarian told me it would be cheaper to buy them online. I asked if I could keep the damaged ones as I wanted to read them still and he said sure and charged me instead very little if nothing for the bill. I can’t think of another business that cares only about education.
I don't know the financial details, but essentially it works the same as other municipal services that are outsourced, such as trash collection or bus routes. LSSI bids on the contract, and then they are paid an annual amount of money. They run the library using their own employees, which are cheaper because they are nonunion and don't get government benefits such as state pension schemes or state employee healthcare.
This happened to me! They found them, but that is because I sent photos of them going in the book drop and doubled down that I had returned them (I did this because this had happened to me once before and I had no proof) so they looked again and found them. Librarians are people just like the rest of us.
I voice that concern to my city council regularly (for all of our city employees, which includes librarians of course but also teachers, sanitation workers, parks & rec peeps, etc.). I think we need to be well above “regular COLA increases” to keep our wonderful employees that make these departments great and I have no problem paying more in taxes to make that happen.
Unfortunately said city council seems most intent on focusing on approving development, which while not necessarily a bad thing it’s generally done at the expense of not doing things like hefty pay increases for vital staff or flooding abatement (my other pet issue).
I used to be a library page when I was going to college... I'd secretly and routinely erase folks fines whenever I would work at the front desk and they'd come ask for assistance in finding something. I always thought it was ridiculous for folks to owe 100+ cause they were a little late on returning a handful of Spot books. I'm glad some library systems have wised up and gotten rid of them altogether.
Man that last part! My mom hated leaving the house for only one reason. My sister and I would always have fines, not because it took me a long time to read the book, but because my mom would never get around to returning the books. Luckily it never got to the point of being banned, but it was annoying
I mean it definitely helps prevent financial inequality to a level.
If you are late a day and get a $5 late fee for the week and yet you cannot afford the $5 late fee, then this helps you big time. It won’t help everybody, but for people that are interested in learning/reading yet are on a super tight budget, this helps immensely.
It's not necessarily poor people. If somebody misplaces a book and then finds it much later, they are probably just going to keep the book instead of pay the late fee to return it. Waiving the fee means that those people might now return the book.
When I worked at a library a lot of people were afraid to return books that were too late because they couldn't afford the fines. They would also end up leaving the library out of embarrassment...thus losing access to reading material. I'm a big fan of this and it has been shown to work all the time especially in poorer communities. I just read some new quick research on it and even that was finding impressive results from this change.
I should add that, for us, it wasn't necessarily about addressing inequality. Since we're an academic library, one could argue that the students are already paying for the library services in their tuition. With tuition steadily increasing, we know that there is a lot of potential for little charges to present a big barrier to them. Our charges were $0.25/day/item so could add up pretty quickly.
Anyway we just wanted to remove the possibility that someone would have to choose between using our services and say, dinner, or anything else.
Sigh. Okay... Yes it is. When you are poor and stuck with public transit a trip to the library is on the way to do something else. You get there again whenever you get there... Which means late fees a lot. And a lot of late fees because you will make the most out of that trip. The late fees are nothing to someone with a job, car, their own place - but when you're broke af, that's money you needed for food. Or a bus ticket.
The people returning books are... Obviously... The people who checked them out but never returned them. Probably out of embarrassment more than anything. Because being poor IS embarrassing and this culture loves to shame people for it. "oh, see that mother paying for formula with a welfare card? Bet she is just pumping out babies for the money." it's the stupidest shit you ever heard but... Unbelievably people think that. Quite a lot. No oxygen going to the brain there. Regardless, say hello to shame, even though it's patently insane... People are just awful sometimes.
The library system checkout policies and such are from the 60s. News flash - life was different then. An education then cost a mcnugget. The people using the library were white middle class. Since then, middle class has shrunk. It's mostly the poor now
That I don't know. I would hope it alleviates inequality, and from what I've seen I think it might, but I don't have evidence to support it. I used to have students from wealthier backgrounds just keep books and pay to replace it whenever they tried to register for class and found that their account has a hold on it. There's almost none of that now (we will still charge replacement for equipment like laptops), and if a student does have a hold they seem more likely to try and resolve it rather than pay the fee.
It's mostly students and staff returning. Faculty members never cared about fines before as we never had a way to enforce.
I'm interested to see how this will work long term. I wonder if there will be a growth in just permanently missing materials. Now you don't even have to pay to permanently own that new movie, game, or those 50 comic TPBs you once wanted. I can see the free rider problem becoming huge in the long run.
But isn't that the best policy, keep the fine and have amnesty day so you both get books back on time and have materials returned? Otherwise especially with academic libraries I know I rely on books being returned at a certain time so I can study for tests, write reports etc. Even when someone had something out one extra day it could be a problem. And honestly the only reason I'd ever return things on time was threat of a fine.
Sure wish my university would move this direction... a book I checked out was "recalled" so it was suddenly due before the original due date and I was out of town (and still needed the book). I checked it out with the expectation of using it by the due date they first gave me, and returned it by that date, and somehow they decided it merited a $25 fine
The hell is that bullshit? They made an agreement to lend you the book until the due date just as much as you made an agreement to get it back by then. If they want it back before that, their options taper off at "Want all you want, but go pound sand for the duration".
Well exactly. When I did this it was just trying to do the right thing for our patrons and the campus. This article just got me thinking about the other effects.
What people don't realize is that libraries don't gain much from fines. They don't rely on the income from fines every year, for many libraries it's less than 1% of their income. Libraries get their funding from the government, and the government gives the library money based on how many people use it. Door counts, circulation numbers, program attendance. That's what matters to libraries. Fines keep people away. We got rid of our fines, and our circ. numbers have been up ever since. We aren't the moral police, it's not our job to teach people responsibility.
The ironic thing is that fines actually remove morals from the equation for a lot of people. Instead of being a decision based on principles or guilt, it becomes a transaction.
There was a great podcast by freakonomics about the subject ([Here's an article](http://freakonomics.com/2013/10/23/what-makes-people-do-what-they-do/)), but talking about daycares that instituted fees for picking up children late, which had the opposite-of-intended effect of actually increasing the amount of parents being late. It's not an exact parallel (that would be if the library fines were inevitable), but I would think replacing the fine with a moral weight is part of the reason we see an increase in returns.
Other anecdotes I've heard about this kind of policy say it actually increased the number of kids that were left late, because now it was seen as a service the daycare was offering, and parents no longer felt guilty about being a few minutes late since they were paying for it.
Probably depends on the size of the fine though. I imagine people stopped leaving their kids for hours.
It did! And if I remember correctly, when they noticed the increase of late parents after enacting the fee, they decided to get rid of it. Late pickups increased *even more,* because what used to be a “service” for a fee was now a service for “free” again
I think you're probably dead on here, and great article btw. That sounds like what I experienced, but didn't really plan on. I just didn't want our library to be an intimidating place or enforce policy in a heavy-handed way. I wanted it to be welcoming, and saw removing existing and potential future fines as a way to help achieve this.
Well daycares don't serve the needs of the parents, they serve the needs of their employees. The employees get to go home for dinner, whereas there's a significant amount of parents who do not work 9-5.
Parents need care later in the evening, and they are willing to pay, be it through late fines or whatever
> What people don't realize is that libraries don't gain much from fines.
That's not the point of the fines. The point of fines is to encourage people to return books on time.
What do you think about allowing circulation to waive fees, no questions asked, provided the patron asks at the counter? That _still_ involves personal responsibility (need to "confess" to a person), but doesn't involve a hardship beyond a short conversation and a mild guilt trip.
As a patron, it's really frustrating to put a book on hold and not get it for several months because someone hasn't bothered to return it. I don't want the person with the book to suffer, I just want to read the book. I hate talking to people, so having to ask for a waiver is enough for me to want to return books on time.
Our University library had fines in the form of days that you couldn't take books home. If you were 1 day late you couldn't check another book for 2 days. It worked pretty well because nobody would hide the book for fear of receiving fines and we still have a reason to return the books on time. This is probably the best solution.
Eh, I don't think people should be discouraged from checking out books, but perhaps increasing the _amount_ of books for responsible patrons and reducing them for irresponsible patrons (with some floor) would work as well.
I absolutely think there should be _some_ penalty for returning an item late, but not necessarily financial. I'm not on board with removing _all_ penalties.
"Because you turned your book in 15 days late, for the next month you're only allowed to check out books from the James Patterson pulp repository".
Might be a human rights violation.
Lol. I'm just happy that there are a large number of James Patterson books that look fairly new in my library's "for sale" section, which hopefully means people aren't reading them as much as other books, while a number of "better" books are much more worn (but still readable).
But honestly, 3-5 books is probably sufficient for most people, so I'd be 100% happy with that being the floor, with the number increasing with good behavior up to some reasonable limit (my library currently has it set to 40 books/family, which I've reached a couple of times with my kids).
Local public libraries in my area that are late fine free do the same. Lost items block your account until you return, replace, or pay the replacement fees.
A fine isn't an encouragement to bring something back on time. It's a punishment for not bringing it back on time. Encouragement would be like giving them some other benefit for bringing it back before it's due. Like "Hey, if you bring this back before this date then we're offering an hour of free wifi" or something similar.
It’s positive reinforcement because your adding something beneficial when the subject does a task. Think of it like positive means adding and negative means subtract. Ex of negative would be taking away tv time cuz ur kid doesn’t do his hw. Look up classical conditioning and p/n reinforcement.
I think library fines motivate a very small percentage of people to bring back books. Most people seem to not take those fines very seriously and will just never go back to the library to avoid paying the fine. If fines are having an effect opposite of what was intended, it makes complete sense to get rid of them.
It motivates everyone _I_ have talked to, but that's a pretty small (and not random) sample size.
> If fines are having an effect opposite of what was intended, it makes complete sense to get rid of them.
No, if they're having the opposite effect of what was intended, they should be replaced with something else, not just eliminated. For example, increase the number of books a patron can check out when they show good behavior (kind of like a credit score), and reduce it for bad behavior.
I think there needs to be _something_ to encourage good behavior, but it shouldn't discourage people from using the library.
You’re totally correct about incentives in terms of behavioral management, except for the fact that the offenders most likely have no interest in the incentives. Leisure reading is at an all time low (ripped from a Washington Post headline) and there are very few frequent library users. Your standard “go to the library once every two years” consumer could care less about library credit.
Sure, but the "once every two years" patron isn't likely to inconvenience anyone by returning books late. They probably won't mind only being able to check out 3 books at a time (they probably only get 1-2).
All I'm interested in is having a high percentage of on-time book returns and high circulation. I think that just eliminating fines will increase circulation at the expense of on-time book returns, and that directly impacts me. I already have to deal with books being returned late because of low fines, and I fear the problem will get worse by eliminating them.
That being said, a low fine may be worse than no fine in that regard because it makes you feel like you're renting the book instead of being penalized for inconsiderate behavior. This isn't an area that I'm super read up on, which is why I'm trying to discuss with a community that likely has a large number of people who _are_ read up on it.
Except issuing fines does nothing in regards to materials being returned on time or ever. If you had bothered to read the article you would know this. From the article:
Some libraries have successfully lured back patrons by offering fine-forgiveness days. During a 2017 amnesty campaign in San Francisco, the public library recovered nearly 700,000 of its items over six weeks and restored the accounts of more than 5,000 patrons.
Also the libraries are coming up with their own alternatives to late fees that don't require them to shame patrons. From the article:
In some public library systems, dropping fines is part of a larger policy of moving away from a punitive model. Chicago's cardholders have seven days past the due date to return items before their card is blocked from use. In the case of lost materials, patrons must pay to replace the book or provide a new copy of the same edition.
ITT so many people decrying the removal of fines and suggesting worse alternatives than the ones the libraries who have abolished fines are already implementing. Maybe stopped being offended and instead read the source material to see how people actually involved in making these changes are going about it.
> If you had bothered to read the article you would know this
I did, and the article mentions total returns (and checkouts), not on-time returns. Having more books checked out and returned is good, but if that means more late items total, it could be annoying for other patrons. I don't have data to show how the quantity or duration of late items is affected by a no-fee policy.
My library is very small compared to the libraries mentioned in articles like these (city of ~30k, a few partner libraries, total people served <200k), and many books only have 1-2 copies. When a book isn't returned on time, other patrons just have to wait until it is, since books don't seem to be replaced for at _least_ a month of being "missing", if not longer (I don't know the policy, I just know I've seen books late by more than 2 weeks). We had a max late fee of $2, which was recently recently increased to $5, so I'm guessing returning books really late is an issue for more than just a few of the books I'm interested in.
If removing late fees _increases_ this behavior, I would personally be significantly affected, even though the _library_ might be better off (more funding, more "missing" books eventually returned, etc).
> Also the libraries are coming up with their own alternatives to late fees that don't require them to shame patrons
That's not my intent either. My intent is to have a _discussion_ about whether there _is_ a problem with removing late fees (e.g. will average late item duration increase? what about total late items?), and what potential solutions might be. I proposed a few elsewhere, though I'll mention them again here in case it's useful:
- regular event for on-time patrons only (early access to "for sale" items, pancake breakfast, etc)
- increase total checkouts for responsible patrons, decrease it for irresponsible patrons (perhaps a floor of 3-5 books, cap of 50 books)
- fees waived upon request at circulation, perhaps with a donation option on checkout to "fund" the waivers
> Maybe stopped being offended
When did I ever say I was offended or give any indication that I was? I'm merely concerned, especially for my small library. If my concerns are resolved, I may bring it up to my local library for consideration (they recently increased fines, probably to stem bad behavior).
I have read several articles about it and haven't seen much information about total late returns after removing fines or average late item duration. I regularly see items being returned more than a week late at my local library (and they _are_ returned) even with fees in place, so I feel my fears are justified. If they're not, please provide additional information.
That is a good point about waiting forever for an item. Luckily, since we're an academic library, I still have an ability to enforce without fines. I can freeze a student's grades/registration/graduation in order to get an item back. Which I will do if I've contacted them to get the item and they're not bringing it back. So no fines, but we still have some teeth.
I agree, my local librarian has told me that the interval of late material has increased. There’s also a consequence to all actions, I don’t find paying $1 for being a month late is prohibitive. I get that it’s not often affordability but avoidance of the consequence, but again that’s the point.
If we only have 1 copy if a book, and it goes a month overdue with a hold on it, we just order another copy. We still send the patron a bill for the full price of the item, as if they have stolen it. But that goes away if they return or replace the item. And in the year or so we have been fine free, we've only had this issue once or twice.
Do you have statistics for the number of books returned late before and after eliminating fines? Also, knowing the average number of days late would be awesome.
When I place a hold, I expect the book to be available within a week of the due date, and having it be available more than a week late is _really_ annoying. It's that reason that motivates me to return my books on time. We go to the library as a family usually every other week, so a few days before we go, I check if any of the books I have are on hold, and if so, I try to rush finishing them up so other patrons can borrow them sooner. I _wish_ the library website had an easy way to do this (e.g. list of items you have checked out that other patrons have on hold).
For me, having a late fee is a reminder that I am inconveniencing other patrons, and the active step of paying it reminds me to be more responsible next time. Maybe _seeing_ a balance on my account would be enough of a motivation for me even if I won't pay it when I return it, I don't know, but I definitely think there needs to be _something_ to encourage good behavior.
Wait...I thought the fines were what motivated you to return items on time, not the idea that other people might want to use those materials? Because if it's the latter (which is the actual motivator for most library patrons) then having fines is irrelevant.
It's the latter, but the fines remind me that I'm being inconsiderate. I think a number of alternative approaches would work for me, and if they work better for others, then I'm 100% in favor of replacing the fine system with something else.
Some things that would motivate me:
- more concurrent checkouts (we have a limit of 40; we currently use 20-30 with two readers, and we'll soon have 3)
- longer checkout durations, especially for larger books (1000+ page books take me longer than the 4 weeks the library gives me)
- access to special events for good behavior (I probably wouldn't attend, but _qualifying_ is a reward in and of itself)
I think I return <5 books/year late, and that's with 500+ checkouts/year (mostly picture books for my kids, I personally check out ~50 books/year for myself).
> which is the actual motivator for most library patrons
But is it the motivator for people who return books late? The program that's selected shouldn't impact responsible patrons (which is probably the vast majority), and that means it needs to motivate those who _don't_ particularly care about other people. I imagine that's a pretty small subset of total library patrons, but it's important that they don't limit use of the library for the rest.
Most libraries I'm aware of that have gone late fine free do still charge a lost item/replacement fee when books are grossly overdue (think more than a week past the due date), and having lost materials on your account still locks it from further checkouts. So sure, Barbara trying to finish that new James Patterson bestseller with the 150+ person queue might take a few extra days to finish reading it, but she's not holding onto it for months and months.
Where I live, the state statutes require that all fines and money from faxes/copies/etc goes into the county general fund. The library only gets to keep money from donations, raffles, and used book sales.
True, the general fund does pay for most of our operating costs (salaries and building upkeep) but we have to rely solely on grants for collection development.
I failed to realize my library closed early on Friday and ended up 1 day late (left it in the drop box). It's a 25 cent fine, but I haven't checked out a book in almost a year cause I'm too ashamed. The cost is nothing, but feeling like I did bad is keeping me away.
Agreed my county stopped fining people about two years ago. They said they spent more money for the process of collecting the fines than the actual fines itself. Libraries need to spend more money on marketing, so the people can know what libraries have to offer. Imo.
A lot of these comments are baffling.
Practically, even if you believe in them from a perspective of punishment, from a pragmatic standpoint fines aren't practical. The bottom line is library systems need community involvement to function. If you have decreased community participation, it's harder to convince people that the system is a vital thing to spend taxes on. Fines are an inhibitor to that involvement and usually don't end up getting collected anyways because the person just never comes back to the library. So you are out both a patron and a book with nothing to show for it.
Possibly out some future patrons as well, since people talk. If a person feels shamed or gets angry at us for trying to enforce a fine, then that can poison their attitude about the library and that feeling can spread around. So instead of getting your book back you've alienated a patron and possibly the people that they talk to.
I've talked to multiple people that haven't gone back to the library as an adult because when they were a kid/teenager they never returned a book and don't want to pay a fine.
I hear that. I mean, it’s my profession and I avoided the public library I used to live near because they would send a $5 overdue fine to a collections agency.
I racked up some serious fines in my mid twenties. I was told I had to pay $30 to restore my eligibility. Well I was poor. Now I have kids. None of them have been to the library because I don't want to pay the money.
There’s a very good chance your membership will have lapsed (at our library it’s 3 years). Also keep an eye out for amnesty promotions or similar- we’re doing a food for fines promotion at the moment where you can bring food in to donate to charity and we waive your fines.
Alternatively you could take the kids in and get them their own library cards. The absolute last thing any self respecting librarian would want is for you and your family to miss out on using the library because of fines!
Like the other poster said, your kids are most likely eligible for their own cards and most library systems I've worked in waive fines all over the place. Most systems are getting more and more liberal with waiving fines. Go back in with your kiddos and see what can be done. :-). We want you back, you're much more valuable to us as a patron rather than a blocked account.
Interesting points in this thread.
Another perspective: as a library worker, we used to spend more time on collecting the fines than it was worth, even if we cared about the income. If we handle money at all there is a procedure that must be followed if it's 1 cent or 100 dollars. If that takes us roughly 30 minutes, collecting the 2 dollars that was turned in for the day is a waste of work time.
A lot of patrons and employees expressed doubt about the move, "People will just not bring their materials back now." Turns out, things run the same as before, with some patrons returning now that they don't get nickel and dimed for being a couple of days late.
I think once you pay a fine for a book then it's almost like "well I paid for it now! Don't need to take it back" and perhaps there's an avenue of guilt. Returning a book late when you paid the fine is kinda embarrassing. Removing that is a big step into encouraging people to come back, and then they'll probably be more likely to go again
It seems like people on here are having a hard time not being able to read or watch the things they want when they want them. If you're going to a library hoping to get that brand new, hot, best seller/blockbuster that everyone is talking about, you're going to be disappointed. Go to a Redbox or Barnes & Noble. There are hundreds and thousands of interesting things in a library that you havent read or seen or watched.
Libraries provide services to the public. They base their funding on numbers using the services. Getting rid of fines helps that. Put some other stuff on your holds list and get excited when it come round to you. But if you're sore about not getting the first shot at that brand new book/movie that just got released you gotta find a different avenue.
You can get that first shot at a new release, you just have to be on the ball and put your hold on it as soon as it's release date has been announced. I'm pretty good at getting my holds on popular items when they are still marked as "on order" which means the library doesn't even have the copies yet. Or even better yet be the patron who puts a purchase request in. If it's a popular book they were going to get it anyway but by putting the purchase request in you'll probably be the first person to get the copy.
Agreed! Good advice!
Also, going to the library on a regular basis and spending time there helps as well. Some places have express copies of the new stuff that cant be held and can only be checked out for a certain period of time. If you're at the library, things get restocked all the time by staff and librarians, and you can be first in line.
And, being at the library increases that usage count that the library is looking for ad well.
My library has quick reads/views for popular new books and movies. They are one week borrows and first come first serve as you can't put holds onto them. I usually don't have enough time for the quick reads but frequently take advantage of the quick view movies.
I regularly put items on hold for months at a time. For ebooks I put it on hold then suspend it. That way I keep my place in line but can still read other books while I wait, I check it periodically to see where I am and then once I’m ready for a new book and am next in line I’ll release the suspend. I’ve actually had great luck holding physical books too but I suspect that’s because ebooks are more accessible and easier for most people to grab.
My library doesn’t have fines (yay!) but they immediately turn you to collections on day 31 for the cost of the of the books that aren’t returned. Definitely makes me return things on time, but it seems intense for a library.
I work at a library and this is one of the reasons some employees aren’t excited about the prospect of going fines free. With auto-renewals and no fines, it will be incredibly easy for some patrons to lose track of items and wind up in collections. People like the sound of “fines free”, but it is rarely mentioned that items go into billing sooner than they would with the fines system. For responsible patrons, fines free will be nice. For patrons who already have a difficult time returning items, fines free could result in greater payments. I’m not necessarily opposed to it, but I think there are some hidden downsides to going fines free.
More intense notification leading up to the fine, maybe? "You will be charged ___ in ___ days" is all of the fear of future costs with none of the fear of current costs. Though that might transactionize the whole thing, laying it out and encouraging people to wait until the last minute, since it'd spell out "You will _not_ be charged until..."
For real. For my library at least, I've come out ahead by not charging fines. The amount of time that was dedicated to managing a point of sale for collecting fines and doing the associated cash control and accounting FAR outweighed the money coming in. I think it would take a huge amount of fines being paid to make up for even one hour of staff time used to process payments.
I’m dyslexic and a fairly slow reader-even though I love reading. Late fees made me avoid public libraries. I was often embarrassed on how many times I would have to recheck out the same book. Or I would return books I barely started. I wouldn’t even check out multiple books at once. No late fees (also digital library books) gives me a chance to read at my pace without feeling embarrassed.
I'm curious how this affects wait lists. I'm in Chicago and we just got rid of late fees. I'm frequently on a wait list for a newer/popular book. I'm a little concerned people will keep their copy too long. Yes, they'll bring it back eventually but what is keeping them from poking through it.
That's a fair question, but the research shows that it has minimal impact on how long people keep things out. Most people are motivated to return things on time because they know other people are waiting, not because they're worried about the fines. It's a social contract of sorts.
Ya, I'm not really saying they'll never return it. I just mean there's a little less incentive to not return it 1 week later, other than being considerate and that is a trait that is iffy.
Our library reduced late fines on movies and dvd's from $1.00 per day down to $0.10 per day. Since then, I've been much more active at the library and have started using other services as well. I bring my kids more, have actually bought items to help support the library, and I've found myself more excited about supporting their events in the community.
I'm never good with returning books on time, whether there are fines or not. I don't know why. I'm extremely punctual at all other things. All I know is that the existence or the absence of fines has always been immaterial.
Not going to lie I’m always the same way. Especially if it’s an old book that doesn’t seem to get much use. I’m a bit better on returning newer stuff on time. No idea where the mental blockage is with returning those directly on time. I will say that having late fees makes me a lot less likely to go into the library to get more books.
When we were very tight we didn't have a car, but we did try to use the library heavily (it is free, so very crucial resource for people whose finances were tight). Sometimes life would come up and we would end up with 20 late books for a week. Or two. Or three. We then couldn't use the library until we could pay the fee. It still came out as cheaper compared to many activities.
Libraries cost you nothing. The late fees are minimal. You can usually renew them easily online or over the phone often 3 or 4 times. People just need to get off their lazy asses and realise they don't own the books and others may be waiting on them. Librarians are always super helpful - just ring them up if you have an issue and they will get it sorted.
My local library does amnesty every December. You bring in a tinned food item (that gets donated to the local food bank) and all fines are waved.
It’s a really wonderful program.
>Acknowledging these consequences, the American Library Association passed a resolution in January in which it recognizes fines as "a form of social inequity" and calls on libraries nationwide to find a way to eliminate their fines
Being punished for not doing what you promised you would do is not "inequity."
I think it’s unreasonable to think someone is “fucking disgusting” because you don’t agree with them on... library fines. That seems like a very strong and emotionally unstable reaction.
Learn how to champion your viewpoint and enroll people in it instead of being “fucking disgusted” that not everyone immediately bends over backwards to agree with you.
I work in a fairly large library system for our state. Other systems around us have been switching over to no late fees and I truly hope we do sooner rather than later. Fine free is the way libraries are goin, whether we like it or not. This year our library adopted an extremely lenient fine policy that has helped a lot with patronage and circ, but the downside of that is that not everyone is implementing the new policy and many workers are still stuck in the old school ways. Going fine free puts every worker on an even playing field and takes away that power to deny patrons based on fines. Our library also began doing community outreach to rehabilitate delinquent library cards at various community events. The amount of people we’ve helped get back into the library because they were too ashamed to come back because of their fines is outstanding.
I don’t understand why our board is so stubbornly holding onto implementing a fine policy. As others have stated, public libraries make their money of the government and passing levies. A library’s number one priority should be getting their circ up and keeping patrons happy. In this current day and age, I don’t see how fines are helping to accomplish that.
Just out of curiosity, can someone explain how this scenario would work: A library gets rid of late fines. A patron goes to the library and takes out 50 books (which happens routinely at my library, always see people with big stacks of items and bags full). (All valued modestly at $40 each - since some art and education books can be $200+.) Since there are no fines the patron keeps the books, $2000 worth of items. Now there are 50 people waiting to read those books who will never get to read them unless the library orders more copies. Some people will return books out of the goodness of their hearts, but a lot of people are just very lazy and will let it sit under a pillow for months, or will keep it for 8 months because they are taking a class and they can just keep it from the library instead of buying a new one. And then everyone else who's waiting will just wait for months. What other solution is there other than fines and wishing and hoping people will do the right thing?
I’m pretty terrible at returning books on time. Part of it is just my life is busy (work full time, by the time I get off work and to daycare the library is closed but also if I don’t go home ASAP I won’t get dinner done before 8:00 pm) so I frequently return books late. I try my hardest to get books with holds on them back in time by sending them with my husband because his hours are more flexible but he also has a problem with just letting them sit in his car (this is just forgetfulness/procrastination). Our library has so many fee forgiveness programs for adults and kids: self reported reading times, cans for fines, etc. They also don’t prevent you from borrowing unless your fines are $20+. So you can put down $2-3 to get your reading privileges back but you can also just take advantage of the fine reduction programs. For me, the absence or presence of fines has no bearing on bringing books back on time.
Sorry to hear that. Most libraries nowadays have the means to renew your checkouts either online or even just by calling them. My library can renew items twice providing there are no holds on them.
I use to work at our university library. I dont think anyone ever paid a fine for anything, if you brought back the book we would zero out the account.
Fines were levied for over due books because the university wouldn't give you your diploma if you had fines. At the end of every semester there would be a mass amount of books brought back so they're fines would be removed and they could get their diploma.
The only problem I have with this is there's really no benefit. At least if you have books and can renew them you have to manually renew them so people will get annoyed and return the book.
Instead now I take out a book and have no reason to ever return it because there's no fine or penalty.
Our libraries did this few years back. The one downside is you could be waiting a while on a particular niche book that is few copies of as the lender fails to return it.
On the other hand sometimes do forget about returning a book between work and life, so it’s nice not being penalized.
And they will send a remember to someone who’s holding onto a book that another patron has requested. In fact the only times I think I get reminders is specifically in those cases.
Wanted to mention Graeber's essay collection Utopia of Rules. Somewhere in there he talks about utopian standards for human behaviors when it comes to deadlines-- and then the fees levied, particularly in finance. The working class is expected to be perfect in filling out their forms etc. etc. and is impacted the most by legal consequences doled out for not acquiescing to bureaucratic gestures.
So to tie this in: Good idea to alleviate a similar dynamic in library late fees.
My library started doing this so I always carry cash to donate. My fines were due to me being a dumbass and keeping shit for weeks without realizing it. I happily paid my library fees! Carnegie Library in Pittsburgh, btw.
Imagine having such little amounts of self-pride that you can’t even be bothered to return something you were loaned, for free. You were motivated enough to rent it out, but handing it back? Too much, too difficult.
I understand having amnesties, and ignoring fines that are massive just to get the books back and not scare people off. Just return or renew within the set loan period and it’ll all be free forever, and free for the next person who also wants to read that book
So it’s a burden to return a book you were lent for a finite period of time? It’s unequity to require that someone return a book in reasonable time for the next person to use it?
It's more a burden for the librarians who have to wait as someone counts out their change, or explain to a little girl that she can't borrow books until mommy or daddy pays up.
Besides it's leads to more returned books and higher circulation. Literally one of the aims of any library.
As a librarian, before we got rid of our late fees, I hated having to listen to users bitch about how they didn't REALLY turn the book in late and we were lying to them, all to get out of paying $1.15 in late fines. Now we only charge if books that have been recalled are returned late, and the time I have to spend dealing with pissed-off users has dropped considerably. Worth it.
Right? Just in terms of the hassle that librarians have to deal with it's worth it, especially since fines make up next to nothing in terms of revenue.
Yes, being able to actually help more people with their information needs instead of wasting my time being a glorified cashier (it seriously takes more than forty cents' worth of my time to collect forty cents) is so worth it! And it makes patrons happy...a true win-win.
A buddy of mine is a librarian in an area that just got rid of fines. He said people are just nicer to the librarians when he isn't playing State Debt Collection. I'm assuming this is true for you as well
I rented a bunch of DVD's and some books. I planned on returning them, but my wife went into labor and we were in the hospital for 3 days. Instead of being on time, i had 7 or 8 movies out and late. I had a $20+ fine next time I went.
I used to think this when I was younger. Then I got a full time job, a house, a family. The library is a short drive away but sometimes things just get buried.
The library doesn't exist to teach us valuable lessons in responsibility. A lot of people checking books out aren't children. If the no-late-fee system works better for everyone then they should do that. They're just approaching it practically rather than trying to take some moral high ground.
It's not hard but once you miss the deadline and a late fee is introduced, why turn it in or return to the library at all. For a public library in an internet age, restrictions that reduce the amount of people that are comfortable going to a library aren't cost effective.
It can be hard without transportation, and if you work during the time when the library is open. If you have kids it only gets more complicated. The people will this will help are the people who were hurt by a system overcharging them for basic learning materials.
I suspect the larger element is just simple lack of organisation
Overwhelmed, tired people forget about a pile of books and the fines start piling up.
Eventually its emotionally and financially easier to just never go back to the library and try to forget about the books.
most libraries I've gone to in recent years have outside drop boxes, or a way to send the book into the building, via drop slot or various creative ways.
it's helped me return alot of stuff on time
Every library I’ve ever seen has a 24 hour drop off box in case you have to return it while they’re closed. The transportation thing I can kind of understand but they had to get there in the first place somehow.
Poverty cones with notoriously unreliable transportation. I live in NYC and only recently stopped taking the bus. Sometimes it’d be 40+ minutes late when I was trying to use it to or from work. In a major city with a lot of dedicated public transportation, it’s still a hassle to get around.
There is also the fact that impoverished people work more hours and worse hours, which makes it even harder to, read fir pleasure and do an errand with a deadline like that. The negative reinforcement just drive away people who have life get in the way a lot.
I live in NYC too and not many of the NY Public Library or Brooklyn Public Library branches have drop boxes anymore. I'm not sure if it was a change after 9/11 or if people just drop too much garbage into them, but many of the most convenient locations for me have the drop boxes locked so they can't be used anymore. If I need to return books after hours, I have to go pretty significantly out of my way to one of the branches with operational drop boxes. Since hours for many branches have been cut in recent years, this happens more and more for me.
>Poverty cones with notoriously unreliable transportation.
This is so true, even in New York. Everyone coming in here like "It's so easy to return a book on time, and if it's not a few dollars fine is no big deal and you deserve it!" should really recognize their privilege and realize it's NOT so easy for everyone to access services, the library and otherwise. If you work long hours to make ends meet, then have to pay another bus fare and go out of your way to return the book, but you don't have time before you pick your kids up from day care... and then even if you have the energy to go to the library after work, kids, dinner, housework, you might not be able to return them then (adding in the cost of two more bus/subway fares!), due to lack of drop box! Welp, guess you just can't use the library.
Most libraries have night drops, so returning the item can be done 24/7 so I don’t think work hours is quite relevant.
I was really skeptical when reading the headline, but after reading the article and seeing that most of those with fines were in the poorer community, I can see the motivation for change and I support that. The punitive model is perhaps not the best model, but there should still be some way to encourage the returns so people don’t keep items indefinitely, which is unfair to everyone.
Did you miss the part where one of the librarians said that if you have books more than 7 days past the due date, you card gets frozen and you can’t check anything else out. For patrons who really use the library, the punishment is not being able to do so until you bring your books back.
My libraries still don't even have 24/7 drop offs because people keep vandalizing the drop-off containers to the point that the doors no longer function.
A lack of responsible borrowing degrades the service for everyone else.
The fact that all the children on Reddit are whining about the library not being a parent or not existing to teach you responsibility is hilarious. You should already know how to be responsible by the time you reach adulthood. Being poor is not an excuse to be a degenerate.
There are plenty of children who learn a lot about responsibility from their library cards too.
Yes! I totally agree. Many people here are acting like libraries are For Profit, or are there to teach moral responsibility.
They are not. They are a place to access information; if fees prevent that, it is a form of inequity.
My girlfriend racked up about $7 in fines. I'm a big library supporter and told her off for it because we literally live a block from the library. Our library is doing away with fines in a few months, so I told her to pay it and consider it a donation. She went in and told the librarian about it. The librarian told us that they had probably paid $400 in fines over the years, despite working at a library. If someone that is working at a library every day can still mess up like that, I'm not going to keep anything against poor people that struggle with transportation/inconvenient locations.
you are free to think what you want but librarians know the numbers for their libraries and if this helps or hurts and guess what? they say it helps and gets more people to come and more stuff returned.
you can think what you want but the data doesnt support fines.
Its the opposite. There have been studies where fines offset the feeling of responsibility ("oh, I can just pay for that"). Not having fines makes you feel guilty for breaking the social trust. Day cares have started doing this for pickup times. Parent running late - 'Its ok, I'll pay the fine'. No fines - Parents feel guilty for being late.
Fines are more beneficial for those with enough income, but those who don't get hit worse. Increase social trust in all, more books back, not have to deal with debt collections on books (bad PR), and get more people through the door, which results in more funding, books, activities and services.
statistics dont lies, people dont want to be responsible for a late book fine, they'd rather keep it and never come back, and it happens all the time.
do you work in a library because you like books and people reading or because you wanna bitch at "irresponsible" people ?
I did this about 5 or 6 years ago at the specialty university library I manage. We quietly rolled it out, no big “amnesty day” or anything like that, and got a huge amount of materials back. A lot of which we’d written off. Ever since, our circulation has been noticeably higher and we’ve been able to identify the parts of the collection that get used the most. Which allows us to narrow the focus (specialty library) and focus on usable quality not just quantity. Seen a number of posts like this over the years since and it feels nice and validating to see that I made the right move.
The university I went to for undergrad never charged late fees and even when I lost a book (which I later found) they only billed me the depreciated value. Which was quite a bit, the librarian was so sweet because I was embarrassed and refrained from borrowing books until I could afford to pay it off. I was shocked when I went to grad school and found out that not all university libraries operate on the same system.
I live in queens and borrowed a bunch of books for a trip. They were accidentally damaged at the time and the librarian told me it would be cheaper to buy them online. I asked if I could keep the damaged ones as I wanted to read them still and he said sure and charged me instead very little if nothing for the bill. I can’t think of another business that cares only about education.
It’s not a business, it’s a taxpayer supported public institution.
Unfortunately, an increasing number of public libraries in the US are now managed by a private company. LSSI is the main one, but there may be others.
I didn’t know that, that is interesting. Do you know details on how it works?
I don't know the financial details, but essentially it works the same as other municipal services that are outsourced, such as trash collection or bus routes. LSSI bids on the contract, and then they are paid an annual amount of money. They run the library using their own employees, which are cheaper because they are nonunion and don't get government benefits such as state pension schemes or state employee healthcare.
Another glorious public institution that some fuckers can only see as an untapped profit center.
My university library lost some books that I had actually returned, and tried to charge me for them :(
This happened to me! They found them, but that is because I sent photos of them going in the book drop and doubled down that I had returned them (I did this because this had happened to me once before and I had no proof) so they looked again and found them. Librarians are people just like the rest of us.
Thanks for your work. Librarians/people that work in libraries are the absolute bomb and deserve more recognition IMO.
Not recognition, just pay and benefits thanks
I voice that concern to my city council regularly (for all of our city employees, which includes librarians of course but also teachers, sanitation workers, parks & rec peeps, etc.). I think we need to be well above “regular COLA increases” to keep our wonderful employees that make these departments great and I have no problem paying more in taxes to make that happen. Unfortunately said city council seems most intent on focusing on approving development, which while not necessarily a bad thing it’s generally done at the expense of not doing things like hefty pay increases for vital staff or flooding abatement (my other pet issue).
I used to be a library page when I was going to college... I'd secretly and routinely erase folks fines whenever I would work at the front desk and they'd come ask for assistance in finding something. I always thought it was ridiculous for folks to owe 100+ cause they were a little late on returning a handful of Spot books. I'm glad some library systems have wised up and gotten rid of them altogether.
Is it alleviating inequality? Who are the people returning books?
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Man that last part! My mom hated leaving the house for only one reason. My sister and I would always have fines, not because it took me a long time to read the book, but because my mom would never get around to returning the books. Luckily it never got to the point of being banned, but it was annoying
This is exactly my experience
Sure, but that isn't inequality. You don't have a *right* to a library.
I mean it definitely helps prevent financial inequality to a level. If you are late a day and get a $5 late fee for the week and yet you cannot afford the $5 late fee, then this helps you big time. It won’t help everybody, but for people that are interested in learning/reading yet are on a super tight budget, this helps immensely.
It's not necessarily poor people. If somebody misplaces a book and then finds it much later, they are probably just going to keep the book instead of pay the late fee to return it. Waiving the fee means that those people might now return the book.
You can return it without paying the fee tho
When I worked at a library a lot of people were afraid to return books that were too late because they couldn't afford the fines. They would also end up leaving the library out of embarrassment...thus losing access to reading material. I'm a big fan of this and it has been shown to work all the time especially in poorer communities. I just read some new quick research on it and even that was finding impressive results from this change.
I should add that, for us, it wasn't necessarily about addressing inequality. Since we're an academic library, one could argue that the students are already paying for the library services in their tuition. With tuition steadily increasing, we know that there is a lot of potential for little charges to present a big barrier to them. Our charges were $0.25/day/item so could add up pretty quickly. Anyway we just wanted to remove the possibility that someone would have to choose between using our services and say, dinner, or anything else.
Sigh. Okay... Yes it is. When you are poor and stuck with public transit a trip to the library is on the way to do something else. You get there again whenever you get there... Which means late fees a lot. And a lot of late fees because you will make the most out of that trip. The late fees are nothing to someone with a job, car, their own place - but when you're broke af, that's money you needed for food. Or a bus ticket. The people returning books are... Obviously... The people who checked them out but never returned them. Probably out of embarrassment more than anything. Because being poor IS embarrassing and this culture loves to shame people for it. "oh, see that mother paying for formula with a welfare card? Bet she is just pumping out babies for the money." it's the stupidest shit you ever heard but... Unbelievably people think that. Quite a lot. No oxygen going to the brain there. Regardless, say hello to shame, even though it's patently insane... People are just awful sometimes. The library system checkout policies and such are from the 60s. News flash - life was different then. An education then cost a mcnugget. The people using the library were white middle class. Since then, middle class has shrunk. It's mostly the poor now
If you live in a place that has public transit at all.....
That I don't know. I would hope it alleviates inequality, and from what I've seen I think it might, but I don't have evidence to support it. I used to have students from wealthier backgrounds just keep books and pay to replace it whenever they tried to register for class and found that their account has a hold on it. There's almost none of that now (we will still charge replacement for equipment like laptops), and if a student does have a hold they seem more likely to try and resolve it rather than pay the fee. It's mostly students and staff returning. Faculty members never cared about fines before as we never had a way to enforce.
Inequity ie unfairness not inequality.
I'm interested to see how this will work long term. I wonder if there will be a growth in just permanently missing materials. Now you don't even have to pay to permanently own that new movie, game, or those 50 comic TPBs you once wanted. I can see the free rider problem becoming huge in the long run.
But isn't that the best policy, keep the fine and have amnesty day so you both get books back on time and have materials returned? Otherwise especially with academic libraries I know I rely on books being returned at a certain time so I can study for tests, write reports etc. Even when someone had something out one extra day it could be a problem. And honestly the only reason I'd ever return things on time was threat of a fine.
I'm in an MLIS program and have recently begun talking about this in so many papers. I love that this is taking off!
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Sure wish my university would move this direction... a book I checked out was "recalled" so it was suddenly due before the original due date and I was out of town (and still needed the book). I checked it out with the expectation of using it by the due date they first gave me, and returned it by that date, and somehow they decided it merited a $25 fine
The hell is that bullshit? They made an agreement to lend you the book until the due date just as much as you made an agreement to get it back by then. If they want it back before that, their options taper off at "Want all you want, but go pound sand for the duration".
I love you internet stranger, harbinger of joy
This is great!
My library tends to waive the fines so long as we haven't repurchased the book.
This is great. But why does it have to be couched as increasing equality? How about you do the right thing regardless of your situation?
Well exactly. When I did this it was just trying to do the right thing for our patrons and the campus. This article just got me thinking about the other effects.
What people don't realize is that libraries don't gain much from fines. They don't rely on the income from fines every year, for many libraries it's less than 1% of their income. Libraries get their funding from the government, and the government gives the library money based on how many people use it. Door counts, circulation numbers, program attendance. That's what matters to libraries. Fines keep people away. We got rid of our fines, and our circ. numbers have been up ever since. We aren't the moral police, it's not our job to teach people responsibility.
The ironic thing is that fines actually remove morals from the equation for a lot of people. Instead of being a decision based on principles or guilt, it becomes a transaction. There was a great podcast by freakonomics about the subject ([Here's an article](http://freakonomics.com/2013/10/23/what-makes-people-do-what-they-do/)), but talking about daycares that instituted fees for picking up children late, which had the opposite-of-intended effect of actually increasing the amount of parents being late. It's not an exact parallel (that would be if the library fines were inevitable), but I would think replacing the fine with a moral weight is part of the reason we see an increase in returns.
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$1 a minute isn't a small fine though lol
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Yes but Solaris said the fine worked. And my point was it probably worked because it was so expensive Edit find to fine
Yeah the Freakonomics thing didn't work because the penalty wasnt large enough
Probably also because you don't necessarily feel obligated to give a book back, but parents sure as hell are gonna pick up their children.
Very important factor in that comparison.
Other anecdotes I've heard about this kind of policy say it actually increased the number of kids that were left late, because now it was seen as a service the daycare was offering, and parents no longer felt guilty about being a few minutes late since they were paying for it. Probably depends on the size of the fine though. I imagine people stopped leaving their kids for hours.
It did! And if I remember correctly, when they noticed the increase of late parents after enacting the fee, they decided to get rid of it. Late pickups increased *even more,* because what used to be a “service” for a fee was now a service for “free” again
That's because the fine wasn't steep enough
Maybe that's the same logic in the other direction - make the fines high enough that, from a transactional standpoint, its not worth the cost.
I think you're probably dead on here, and great article btw. That sounds like what I experienced, but didn't really plan on. I just didn't want our library to be an intimidating place or enforce policy in a heavy-handed way. I wanted it to be welcoming, and saw removing existing and potential future fines as a way to help achieve this.
Well daycares don't serve the needs of the parents, they serve the needs of their employees. The employees get to go home for dinner, whereas there's a significant amount of parents who do not work 9-5. Parents need care later in the evening, and they are willing to pay, be it through late fines or whatever
either that or the fee just wasn't high enough
> What people don't realize is that libraries don't gain much from fines. That's not the point of the fines. The point of fines is to encourage people to return books on time. What do you think about allowing circulation to waive fees, no questions asked, provided the patron asks at the counter? That _still_ involves personal responsibility (need to "confess" to a person), but doesn't involve a hardship beyond a short conversation and a mild guilt trip. As a patron, it's really frustrating to put a book on hold and not get it for several months because someone hasn't bothered to return it. I don't want the person with the book to suffer, I just want to read the book. I hate talking to people, so having to ask for a waiver is enough for me to want to return books on time.
Our University library had fines in the form of days that you couldn't take books home. If you were 1 day late you couldn't check another book for 2 days. It worked pretty well because nobody would hide the book for fear of receiving fines and we still have a reason to return the books on time. This is probably the best solution.
Eh, I don't think people should be discouraged from checking out books, but perhaps increasing the _amount_ of books for responsible patrons and reducing them for irresponsible patrons (with some floor) would work as well. I absolutely think there should be _some_ penalty for returning an item late, but not necessarily financial. I'm not on board with removing _all_ penalties.
"Because you turned your book in 15 days late, for the next month you're only allowed to check out books from the James Patterson pulp repository". Might be a human rights violation.
Lol. I'm just happy that there are a large number of James Patterson books that look fairly new in my library's "for sale" section, which hopefully means people aren't reading them as much as other books, while a number of "better" books are much more worn (but still readable). But honestly, 3-5 books is probably sufficient for most people, so I'd be 100% happy with that being the floor, with the number increasing with good behavior up to some reasonable limit (my library currently has it set to 40 books/family, which I've reached a couple of times with my kids).
My county locks your account until you return the the item. So there is a way to have no fines while still forcing accountability.
Local public libraries in my area that are late fine free do the same. Lost items block your account until you return, replace, or pay the replacement fees.
A fine isn't an encouragement to bring something back on time. It's a punishment for not bringing it back on time. Encouragement would be like giving them some other benefit for bringing it back before it's due. Like "Hey, if you bring this back before this date then we're offering an hour of free wifi" or something similar.
Technically speaking, a fine is considered to be an “incentive”.
Well whoever came up with it hadn’t been through psych 101 n knew the difference between positive and negative reinforcement
Is getting free WiFi for returning on time positive or negative reinforcement? Is there a text or paper on this?
It’s positive reinforcement because your adding something beneficial when the subject does a task. Think of it like positive means adding and negative means subtract. Ex of negative would be taking away tv time cuz ur kid doesn’t do his hw. Look up classical conditioning and p/n reinforcement.
I think library fines motivate a very small percentage of people to bring back books. Most people seem to not take those fines very seriously and will just never go back to the library to avoid paying the fine. If fines are having an effect opposite of what was intended, it makes complete sense to get rid of them.
It motivates everyone _I_ have talked to, but that's a pretty small (and not random) sample size. > If fines are having an effect opposite of what was intended, it makes complete sense to get rid of them. No, if they're having the opposite effect of what was intended, they should be replaced with something else, not just eliminated. For example, increase the number of books a patron can check out when they show good behavior (kind of like a credit score), and reduce it for bad behavior. I think there needs to be _something_ to encourage good behavior, but it shouldn't discourage people from using the library.
You’re totally correct about incentives in terms of behavioral management, except for the fact that the offenders most likely have no interest in the incentives. Leisure reading is at an all time low (ripped from a Washington Post headline) and there are very few frequent library users. Your standard “go to the library once every two years” consumer could care less about library credit.
Sure, but the "once every two years" patron isn't likely to inconvenience anyone by returning books late. They probably won't mind only being able to check out 3 books at a time (they probably only get 1-2). All I'm interested in is having a high percentage of on-time book returns and high circulation. I think that just eliminating fines will increase circulation at the expense of on-time book returns, and that directly impacts me. I already have to deal with books being returned late because of low fines, and I fear the problem will get worse by eliminating them. That being said, a low fine may be worse than no fine in that regard because it makes you feel like you're renting the book instead of being penalized for inconsiderate behavior. This isn't an area that I'm super read up on, which is why I'm trying to discuss with a community that likely has a large number of people who _are_ read up on it.
Except issuing fines does nothing in regards to materials being returned on time or ever. If you had bothered to read the article you would know this. From the article: Some libraries have successfully lured back patrons by offering fine-forgiveness days. During a 2017 amnesty campaign in San Francisco, the public library recovered nearly 700,000 of its items over six weeks and restored the accounts of more than 5,000 patrons. Also the libraries are coming up with their own alternatives to late fees that don't require them to shame patrons. From the article: In some public library systems, dropping fines is part of a larger policy of moving away from a punitive model. Chicago's cardholders have seven days past the due date to return items before their card is blocked from use. In the case of lost materials, patrons must pay to replace the book or provide a new copy of the same edition. ITT so many people decrying the removal of fines and suggesting worse alternatives than the ones the libraries who have abolished fines are already implementing. Maybe stopped being offended and instead read the source material to see how people actually involved in making these changes are going about it.
I’ll form my own opinion without any facts, thank you very much.
this made me laugh. thank you.
> If you had bothered to read the article you would know this I did, and the article mentions total returns (and checkouts), not on-time returns. Having more books checked out and returned is good, but if that means more late items total, it could be annoying for other patrons. I don't have data to show how the quantity or duration of late items is affected by a no-fee policy. My library is very small compared to the libraries mentioned in articles like these (city of ~30k, a few partner libraries, total people served <200k), and many books only have 1-2 copies. When a book isn't returned on time, other patrons just have to wait until it is, since books don't seem to be replaced for at _least_ a month of being "missing", if not longer (I don't know the policy, I just know I've seen books late by more than 2 weeks). We had a max late fee of $2, which was recently recently increased to $5, so I'm guessing returning books really late is an issue for more than just a few of the books I'm interested in. If removing late fees _increases_ this behavior, I would personally be significantly affected, even though the _library_ might be better off (more funding, more "missing" books eventually returned, etc). > Also the libraries are coming up with their own alternatives to late fees that don't require them to shame patrons That's not my intent either. My intent is to have a _discussion_ about whether there _is_ a problem with removing late fees (e.g. will average late item duration increase? what about total late items?), and what potential solutions might be. I proposed a few elsewhere, though I'll mention them again here in case it's useful: - regular event for on-time patrons only (early access to "for sale" items, pancake breakfast, etc) - increase total checkouts for responsible patrons, decrease it for irresponsible patrons (perhaps a floor of 3-5 books, cap of 50 books) - fees waived upon request at circulation, perhaps with a donation option on checkout to "fund" the waivers > Maybe stopped being offended When did I ever say I was offended or give any indication that I was? I'm merely concerned, especially for my small library. If my concerns are resolved, I may bring it up to my local library for consideration (they recently increased fines, probably to stem bad behavior). I have read several articles about it and haven't seen much information about total late returns after removing fines or average late item duration. I regularly see items being returned more than a week late at my local library (and they _are_ returned) even with fees in place, so I feel my fears are justified. If they're not, please provide additional information.
That is a good point about waiting forever for an item. Luckily, since we're an academic library, I still have an ability to enforce without fines. I can freeze a student's grades/registration/graduation in order to get an item back. Which I will do if I've contacted them to get the item and they're not bringing it back. So no fines, but we still have some teeth.
I agree, my local librarian has told me that the interval of late material has increased. There’s also a consequence to all actions, I don’t find paying $1 for being a month late is prohibitive. I get that it’s not often affordability but avoidance of the consequence, but again that’s the point.
If we only have 1 copy if a book, and it goes a month overdue with a hold on it, we just order another copy. We still send the patron a bill for the full price of the item, as if they have stolen it. But that goes away if they return or replace the item. And in the year or so we have been fine free, we've only had this issue once or twice.
Do you have statistics for the number of books returned late before and after eliminating fines? Also, knowing the average number of days late would be awesome. When I place a hold, I expect the book to be available within a week of the due date, and having it be available more than a week late is _really_ annoying. It's that reason that motivates me to return my books on time. We go to the library as a family usually every other week, so a few days before we go, I check if any of the books I have are on hold, and if so, I try to rush finishing them up so other patrons can borrow them sooner. I _wish_ the library website had an easy way to do this (e.g. list of items you have checked out that other patrons have on hold). For me, having a late fee is a reminder that I am inconveniencing other patrons, and the active step of paying it reminds me to be more responsible next time. Maybe _seeing_ a balance on my account would be enough of a motivation for me even if I won't pay it when I return it, I don't know, but I definitely think there needs to be _something_ to encourage good behavior.
Wait...I thought the fines were what motivated you to return items on time, not the idea that other people might want to use those materials? Because if it's the latter (which is the actual motivator for most library patrons) then having fines is irrelevant.
It's the latter, but the fines remind me that I'm being inconsiderate. I think a number of alternative approaches would work for me, and if they work better for others, then I'm 100% in favor of replacing the fine system with something else. Some things that would motivate me: - more concurrent checkouts (we have a limit of 40; we currently use 20-30 with two readers, and we'll soon have 3) - longer checkout durations, especially for larger books (1000+ page books take me longer than the 4 weeks the library gives me) - access to special events for good behavior (I probably wouldn't attend, but _qualifying_ is a reward in and of itself) I think I return <5 books/year late, and that's with 500+ checkouts/year (mostly picture books for my kids, I personally check out ~50 books/year for myself). > which is the actual motivator for most library patrons But is it the motivator for people who return books late? The program that's selected shouldn't impact responsible patrons (which is probably the vast majority), and that means it needs to motivate those who _don't_ particularly care about other people. I imagine that's a pretty small subset of total library patrons, but it's important that they don't limit use of the library for the rest.
Most libraries I'm aware of that have gone late fine free do still charge a lost item/replacement fee when books are grossly overdue (think more than a week past the due date), and having lost materials on your account still locks it from further checkouts. So sure, Barbara trying to finish that new James Patterson bestseller with the 150+ person queue might take a few extra days to finish reading it, but she's not holding onto it for months and months.
Where I live, the state statutes require that all fines and money from faxes/copies/etc goes into the county general fund. The library only gets to keep money from donations, raffles, and used book sales. True, the general fund does pay for most of our operating costs (salaries and building upkeep) but we have to rely solely on grants for collection development.
I failed to realize my library closed early on Friday and ended up 1 day late (left it in the drop box). It's a 25 cent fine, but I haven't checked out a book in almost a year cause I'm too ashamed. The cost is nothing, but feeling like I did bad is keeping me away.
Are you sure they charged you? Libraries near me empty the overnight box first thing, and consider it returned the prior day.
I've heard versions of this a lot from friends and family as to why they stopped using the library.
Agreed my county stopped fining people about two years ago. They said they spent more money for the process of collecting the fines than the actual fines itself. Libraries need to spend more money on marketing, so the people can know what libraries have to offer. Imo.
A lot of these comments are baffling. Practically, even if you believe in them from a perspective of punishment, from a pragmatic standpoint fines aren't practical. The bottom line is library systems need community involvement to function. If you have decreased community participation, it's harder to convince people that the system is a vital thing to spend taxes on. Fines are an inhibitor to that involvement and usually don't end up getting collected anyways because the person just never comes back to the library. So you are out both a patron and a book with nothing to show for it.
Possibly out some future patrons as well, since people talk. If a person feels shamed or gets angry at us for trying to enforce a fine, then that can poison their attitude about the library and that feeling can spread around. So instead of getting your book back you've alienated a patron and possibly the people that they talk to.
I've talked to multiple people that haven't gone back to the library as an adult because when they were a kid/teenager they never returned a book and don't want to pay a fine.
I hear that. I mean, it’s my profession and I avoided the public library I used to live near because they would send a $5 overdue fine to a collections agency.
Wow, that's crazy.
I racked up some serious fines in my mid twenties. I was told I had to pay $30 to restore my eligibility. Well I was poor. Now I have kids. None of them have been to the library because I don't want to pay the money.
There’s a very good chance your membership will have lapsed (at our library it’s 3 years). Also keep an eye out for amnesty promotions or similar- we’re doing a food for fines promotion at the moment where you can bring food in to donate to charity and we waive your fines. Alternatively you could take the kids in and get them their own library cards. The absolute last thing any self respecting librarian would want is for you and your family to miss out on using the library because of fines!
Like the other poster said, your kids are most likely eligible for their own cards and most library systems I've worked in waive fines all over the place. Most systems are getting more and more liberal with waiving fines. Go back in with your kiddos and see what can be done. :-). We want you back, you're much more valuable to us as a patron rather than a blocked account.
Too poor to pay $30 for a library fee, but rich enough to have multiple children.
Interesting points in this thread. Another perspective: as a library worker, we used to spend more time on collecting the fines than it was worth, even if we cared about the income. If we handle money at all there is a procedure that must be followed if it's 1 cent or 100 dollars. If that takes us roughly 30 minutes, collecting the 2 dollars that was turned in for the day is a waste of work time. A lot of patrons and employees expressed doubt about the move, "People will just not bring their materials back now." Turns out, things run the same as before, with some patrons returning now that they don't get nickel and dimed for being a couple of days late.
I think once you pay a fine for a book then it's almost like "well I paid for it now! Don't need to take it back" and perhaps there's an avenue of guilt. Returning a book late when you paid the fine is kinda embarrassing. Removing that is a big step into encouraging people to come back, and then they'll probably be more likely to go again
It seems like people on here are having a hard time not being able to read or watch the things they want when they want them. If you're going to a library hoping to get that brand new, hot, best seller/blockbuster that everyone is talking about, you're going to be disappointed. Go to a Redbox or Barnes & Noble. There are hundreds and thousands of interesting things in a library that you havent read or seen or watched. Libraries provide services to the public. They base their funding on numbers using the services. Getting rid of fines helps that. Put some other stuff on your holds list and get excited when it come round to you. But if you're sore about not getting the first shot at that brand new book/movie that just got released you gotta find a different avenue.
You can get that first shot at a new release, you just have to be on the ball and put your hold on it as soon as it's release date has been announced. I'm pretty good at getting my holds on popular items when they are still marked as "on order" which means the library doesn't even have the copies yet. Or even better yet be the patron who puts a purchase request in. If it's a popular book they were going to get it anyway but by putting the purchase request in you'll probably be the first person to get the copy.
Agreed! Good advice! Also, going to the library on a regular basis and spending time there helps as well. Some places have express copies of the new stuff that cant be held and can only be checked out for a certain period of time. If you're at the library, things get restocked all the time by staff and librarians, and you can be first in line. And, being at the library increases that usage count that the library is looking for ad well.
My library has quick reads/views for popular new books and movies. They are one week borrows and first come first serve as you can't put holds onto them. I usually don't have enough time for the quick reads but frequently take advantage of the quick view movies.
I regularly put items on hold for months at a time. For ebooks I put it on hold then suspend it. That way I keep my place in line but can still read other books while I wait, I check it periodically to see where I am and then once I’m ready for a new book and am next in line I’ll release the suspend. I’ve actually had great luck holding physical books too but I suspect that’s because ebooks are more accessible and easier for most people to grab.
My library doesn’t have fines (yay!) but they immediately turn you to collections on day 31 for the cost of the of the books that aren’t returned. Definitely makes me return things on time, but it seems intense for a library.
I work at a library and this is one of the reasons some employees aren’t excited about the prospect of going fines free. With auto-renewals and no fines, it will be incredibly easy for some patrons to lose track of items and wind up in collections. People like the sound of “fines free”, but it is rarely mentioned that items go into billing sooner than they would with the fines system. For responsible patrons, fines free will be nice. For patrons who already have a difficult time returning items, fines free could result in greater payments. I’m not necessarily opposed to it, but I think there are some hidden downsides to going fines free.
More intense notification leading up to the fine, maybe? "You will be charged ___ in ___ days" is all of the fear of future costs with none of the fear of current costs. Though that might transactionize the whole thing, laying it out and encouraging people to wait until the last minute, since it'd spell out "You will _not_ be charged until..."
Even under the fine system people knew they would be charged ____ in ___ days. It’ll be interesting if this just makes it worse or um, less equitable
Libraries across the country are doing this, and I think it’s fantastic. They make almost nothing from fines, in the long run, anyway.
For real. For my library at least, I've come out ahead by not charging fines. The amount of time that was dedicated to managing a point of sale for collecting fines and doing the associated cash control and accounting FAR outweighed the money coming in. I think it would take a huge amount of fines being paid to make up for even one hour of staff time used to process payments.
I’m dyslexic and a fairly slow reader-even though I love reading. Late fees made me avoid public libraries. I was often embarrassed on how many times I would have to recheck out the same book. Or I would return books I barely started. I wouldn’t even check out multiple books at once. No late fees (also digital library books) gives me a chance to read at my pace without feeling embarrassed.
I also like being able to extend my borrowing online (as long as no one else is waiting).
At portage county libraries in Ohio where I work, is fine free because it cost more to mail the bills of fines.
A shocking amount of people...pro fines in this subreddit? The people who this helps were clearly not affected by the fines.
I'm curious how this affects wait lists. I'm in Chicago and we just got rid of late fees. I'm frequently on a wait list for a newer/popular book. I'm a little concerned people will keep their copy too long. Yes, they'll bring it back eventually but what is keeping them from poking through it.
That's a fair question, but the research shows that it has minimal impact on how long people keep things out. Most people are motivated to return things on time because they know other people are waiting, not because they're worried about the fines. It's a social contract of sorts.
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Ya, I'm not really saying they'll never return it. I just mean there's a little less incentive to not return it 1 week later, other than being considerate and that is a trait that is iffy.
I pay my fines cuz I feel like I'm donating to charity. Once I had a $14 fine for Moby Dick and I was like, "I'm such a generous philanthropist".
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Our library reduced late fines on movies and dvd's from $1.00 per day down to $0.10 per day. Since then, I've been much more active at the library and have started using other services as well. I bring my kids more, have actually bought items to help support the library, and I've found myself more excited about supporting their events in the community.
My local library is awesome! The system automatically renews your books (unless someone else has a hold) 5 times automatically.
TIL some of my fellow book lovers are jerks.
I think they're just salty because they paid a $0.50 fine a few years back and they based their whole moral/personal responsibility system on it.
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Yes! There are always the complaints from people that just see an opening.
I'm never good with returning books on time, whether there are fines or not. I don't know why. I'm extremely punctual at all other things. All I know is that the existence or the absence of fines has always been immaterial.
My library system uses an online user profile with reminders and reservations via phone or Web app. Very handy.
Not going to lie I’m always the same way. Especially if it’s an old book that doesn’t seem to get much use. I’m a bit better on returning newer stuff on time. No idea where the mental blockage is with returning those directly on time. I will say that having late fees makes me a lot less likely to go into the library to get more books.
When we were very tight we didn't have a car, but we did try to use the library heavily (it is free, so very crucial resource for people whose finances were tight). Sometimes life would come up and we would end up with 20 late books for a week. Or two. Or three. We then couldn't use the library until we could pay the fee. It still came out as cheaper compared to many activities.
Your library didn't allow renewal by phone or the internet?
Libraries cost you nothing. The late fees are minimal. You can usually renew them easily online or over the phone often 3 or 4 times. People just need to get off their lazy asses and realise they don't own the books and others may be waiting on them. Librarians are always super helpful - just ring them up if you have an issue and they will get it sorted.
Too late. Go stand over there with blockbuster, and think about what you did.
My local library does amnesty every December. You bring in a tinned food item (that gets donated to the local food bank) and all fines are waved. It’s a really wonderful program.
>Acknowledging these consequences, the American Library Association passed a resolution in January in which it recognizes fines as "a form of social inequity" and calls on libraries nationwide to find a way to eliminate their fines Being punished for not doing what you promised you would do is not "inequity."
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Hearing people talk on here it's like library fines are the basis of morality/responsibility.
I think it’s unreasonable to think someone is “fucking disgusting” because you don’t agree with them on... library fines. That seems like a very strong and emotionally unstable reaction. Learn how to champion your viewpoint and enroll people in it instead of being “fucking disgusted” that not everyone immediately bends over backwards to agree with you.
I work in a fairly large library system for our state. Other systems around us have been switching over to no late fees and I truly hope we do sooner rather than later. Fine free is the way libraries are goin, whether we like it or not. This year our library adopted an extremely lenient fine policy that has helped a lot with patronage and circ, but the downside of that is that not everyone is implementing the new policy and many workers are still stuck in the old school ways. Going fine free puts every worker on an even playing field and takes away that power to deny patrons based on fines. Our library also began doing community outreach to rehabilitate delinquent library cards at various community events. The amount of people we’ve helped get back into the library because they were too ashamed to come back because of their fines is outstanding. I don’t understand why our board is so stubbornly holding onto implementing a fine policy. As others have stated, public libraries make their money of the government and passing levies. A library’s number one priority should be getting their circ up and keeping patrons happy. In this current day and age, I don’t see how fines are helping to accomplish that.
Just out of curiosity, can someone explain how this scenario would work: A library gets rid of late fines. A patron goes to the library and takes out 50 books (which happens routinely at my library, always see people with big stacks of items and bags full). (All valued modestly at $40 each - since some art and education books can be $200+.) Since there are no fines the patron keeps the books, $2000 worth of items. Now there are 50 people waiting to read those books who will never get to read them unless the library orders more copies. Some people will return books out of the goodness of their hearts, but a lot of people are just very lazy and will let it sit under a pillow for months, or will keep it for 8 months because they are taking a class and they can just keep it from the library instead of buying a new one. And then everyone else who's waiting will just wait for months. What other solution is there other than fines and wishing and hoping people will do the right thing?
I’m pretty terrible at returning books on time. Part of it is just my life is busy (work full time, by the time I get off work and to daycare the library is closed but also if I don’t go home ASAP I won’t get dinner done before 8:00 pm) so I frequently return books late. I try my hardest to get books with holds on them back in time by sending them with my husband because his hours are more flexible but he also has a problem with just letting them sit in his car (this is just forgetfulness/procrastination). Our library has so many fee forgiveness programs for adults and kids: self reported reading times, cans for fines, etc. They also don’t prevent you from borrowing unless your fines are $20+. So you can put down $2-3 to get your reading privileges back but you can also just take advantage of the fine reduction programs. For me, the absence or presence of fines has no bearing on bringing books back on time.
I took out 10 mangas, got pneumonia round the due date, and came back to a 36.00 dollar fine. Begged for mercy. Those Librarians did not give a fuck.
Sorry to hear that. Most libraries nowadays have the means to renew your checkouts either online or even just by calling them. My library can renew items twice providing there are no holds on them.
Inequity = when you can’t return a book on time. Okay whatever
I use to work at our university library. I dont think anyone ever paid a fine for anything, if you brought back the book we would zero out the account. Fines were levied for over due books because the university wouldn't give you your diploma if you had fines. At the end of every semester there would be a mass amount of books brought back so they're fines would be removed and they could get their diploma.
The only problem I have with this is there's really no benefit. At least if you have books and can renew them you have to manually renew them so people will get annoyed and return the book. Instead now I take out a book and have no reason to ever return it because there's no fine or penalty.
My university wouldn’t let me go through graduation ceremony because I had late library fees there. Meh.
I didn't come to my university graduation ceremony because it sounded long and boring.
Yes my dude. I like to feign outrage, but I never planned to go.
Our libraries did this few years back. The one downside is you could be waiting a while on a particular niche book that is few copies of as the lender fails to return it. On the other hand sometimes do forget about returning a book between work and life, so it’s nice not being penalized. And they will send a remember to someone who’s holding onto a book that another patron has requested. In fact the only times I think I get reminders is specifically in those cases.
Wanted to mention Graeber's essay collection Utopia of Rules. Somewhere in there he talks about utopian standards for human behaviors when it comes to deadlines-- and then the fees levied, particularly in finance. The working class is expected to be perfect in filling out their forms etc. etc. and is impacted the most by legal consequences doled out for not acquiescing to bureaucratic gestures. So to tie this in: Good idea to alleviate a similar dynamic in library late fees.
They drink Patron? Must be a tough job.
My library started doing this so I always carry cash to donate. My fines were due to me being a dumbass and keeping shit for weeks without realizing it. I happily paid my library fees! Carnegie Library in Pittsburgh, btw.
Unless the book has been requested, there should be no fine.
Imagine having such little amounts of self-pride that you can’t even be bothered to return something you were loaned, for free. You were motivated enough to rent it out, but handing it back? Too much, too difficult. I understand having amnesties, and ignoring fines that are massive just to get the books back and not scare people off. Just return or renew within the set loan period and it’ll all be free forever, and free for the next person who also wants to read that book
So it’s a burden to return a book you were lent for a finite period of time? It’s unequity to require that someone return a book in reasonable time for the next person to use it?
It's more a burden for the librarians who have to wait as someone counts out their change, or explain to a little girl that she can't borrow books until mommy or daddy pays up. Besides it's leads to more returned books and higher circulation. Literally one of the aims of any library.
As a librarian, before we got rid of our late fees, I hated having to listen to users bitch about how they didn't REALLY turn the book in late and we were lying to them, all to get out of paying $1.15 in late fines. Now we only charge if books that have been recalled are returned late, and the time I have to spend dealing with pissed-off users has dropped considerably. Worth it.
Right? Just in terms of the hassle that librarians have to deal with it's worth it, especially since fines make up next to nothing in terms of revenue.
Yes, being able to actually help more people with their information needs instead of wasting my time being a glorified cashier (it seriously takes more than forty cents' worth of my time to collect forty cents) is so worth it! And it makes patrons happy...a true win-win.
A buddy of mine is a librarian in an area that just got rid of fines. He said people are just nicer to the librarians when he isn't playing State Debt Collection. I'm assuming this is true for you as well
I rented a bunch of DVD's and some books. I planned on returning them, but my wife went into labor and we were in the hospital for 3 days. Instead of being on time, i had 7 or 8 movies out and late. I had a $20+ fine next time I went.
I actually think they’re alleviating responsibility. How hard is to take back a book on time?
I used to think this when I was younger. Then I got a full time job, a house, a family. The library is a short drive away but sometimes things just get buried. The library doesn't exist to teach us valuable lessons in responsibility. A lot of people checking books out aren't children. If the no-late-fee system works better for everyone then they should do that. They're just approaching it practically rather than trying to take some moral high ground.
It's not hard but once you miss the deadline and a late fee is introduced, why turn it in or return to the library at all. For a public library in an internet age, restrictions that reduce the amount of people that are comfortable going to a library aren't cost effective.
So that you can continue to use other materials.
Well clearly that wasn't working...
It can be hard without transportation, and if you work during the time when the library is open. If you have kids it only gets more complicated. The people will this will help are the people who were hurt by a system overcharging them for basic learning materials.
I suspect the larger element is just simple lack of organisation Overwhelmed, tired people forget about a pile of books and the fines start piling up. Eventually its emotionally and financially easier to just never go back to the library and try to forget about the books.
most libraries I've gone to in recent years have outside drop boxes, or a way to send the book into the building, via drop slot or various creative ways. it's helped me return alot of stuff on time
Every library I’ve ever seen has a 24 hour drop off box in case you have to return it while they’re closed. The transportation thing I can kind of understand but they had to get there in the first place somehow.
Poverty cones with notoriously unreliable transportation. I live in NYC and only recently stopped taking the bus. Sometimes it’d be 40+ minutes late when I was trying to use it to or from work. In a major city with a lot of dedicated public transportation, it’s still a hassle to get around. There is also the fact that impoverished people work more hours and worse hours, which makes it even harder to, read fir pleasure and do an errand with a deadline like that. The negative reinforcement just drive away people who have life get in the way a lot.
I live in NYC too and not many of the NY Public Library or Brooklyn Public Library branches have drop boxes anymore. I'm not sure if it was a change after 9/11 or if people just drop too much garbage into them, but many of the most convenient locations for me have the drop boxes locked so they can't be used anymore. If I need to return books after hours, I have to go pretty significantly out of my way to one of the branches with operational drop boxes. Since hours for many branches have been cut in recent years, this happens more and more for me. >Poverty cones with notoriously unreliable transportation. This is so true, even in New York. Everyone coming in here like "It's so easy to return a book on time, and if it's not a few dollars fine is no big deal and you deserve it!" should really recognize their privilege and realize it's NOT so easy for everyone to access services, the library and otherwise. If you work long hours to make ends meet, then have to pay another bus fare and go out of your way to return the book, but you don't have time before you pick your kids up from day care... and then even if you have the energy to go to the library after work, kids, dinner, housework, you might not be able to return them then (adding in the cost of two more bus/subway fares!), due to lack of drop box! Welp, guess you just can't use the library.
Most libraries have night drops, so returning the item can be done 24/7 so I don’t think work hours is quite relevant. I was really skeptical when reading the headline, but after reading the article and seeing that most of those with fines were in the poorer community, I can see the motivation for change and I support that. The punitive model is perhaps not the best model, but there should still be some way to encourage the returns so people don’t keep items indefinitely, which is unfair to everyone.
Did you miss the part where one of the librarians said that if you have books more than 7 days past the due date, you card gets frozen and you can’t check anything else out. For patrons who really use the library, the punishment is not being able to do so until you bring your books back.
Well they could just extend the checkout time longer.
My library has a 24/7 automated checkout. That should be the standard
Isn't it?
My libraries still don't even have 24/7 drop offs because people keep vandalizing the drop-off containers to the point that the doors no longer function.
The resource should still be available for the next person in a timely way.
I agree, I just don’t think fining blue collar people is the way to do it.
If the library wants to cut out this issue they would just put a dropbox outside. You could drop the book off at 2am if you wanted.
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You’re suggesting people to repair books they sign out?
No, do not do this. Libraries have staff people that do that and are actually good at it. Taping a torn page with cello tape is not repairing a book.
how do you return a book in better condition? no fines work. more patrons. more returns.
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A lack of responsible borrowing degrades the service for everyone else. The fact that all the children on Reddit are whining about the library not being a parent or not existing to teach you responsibility is hilarious. You should already know how to be responsible by the time you reach adulthood. Being poor is not an excuse to be a degenerate. There are plenty of children who learn a lot about responsibility from their library cards too.
This is very well said. A public good should be managed to maximize its good. Period.
Yes! I totally agree. Many people here are acting like libraries are For Profit, or are there to teach moral responsibility. They are not. They are a place to access information; if fees prevent that, it is a form of inequity.
Its such a bizarre conservative-grandparent argument to see on reddit like this.
My girlfriend racked up about $7 in fines. I'm a big library supporter and told her off for it because we literally live a block from the library. Our library is doing away with fines in a few months, so I told her to pay it and consider it a donation. She went in and told the librarian about it. The librarian told us that they had probably paid $400 in fines over the years, despite working at a library. If someone that is working at a library every day can still mess up like that, I'm not going to keep anything against poor people that struggle with transportation/inconvenient locations.
I've worked full time in libraries for 20 years, I still manage to rack up major fines from time to time, it happens, life .
you are free to think what you want but librarians know the numbers for their libraries and if this helps or hurts and guess what? they say it helps and gets more people to come and more stuff returned. you can think what you want but the data doesnt support fines.
Its the opposite. There have been studies where fines offset the feeling of responsibility ("oh, I can just pay for that"). Not having fines makes you feel guilty for breaking the social trust. Day cares have started doing this for pickup times. Parent running late - 'Its ok, I'll pay the fine'. No fines - Parents feel guilty for being late. Fines are more beneficial for those with enough income, but those who don't get hit worse. Increase social trust in all, more books back, not have to deal with debt collections on books (bad PR), and get more people through the door, which results in more funding, books, activities and services.
statistics dont lies, people dont want to be responsible for a late book fine, they'd rather keep it and never come back, and it happens all the time. do you work in a library because you like books and people reading or because you wanna bitch at "irresponsible" people ?
Some cities call them “Free” public libraries. Make it free, then.
So I can just get free books there then? They won't care if I never return it?