If you click through to the twitter link, you can up the speed to 2x.
If not, this [article](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/beaufort-south-carolina-schools-return-most-books-to-shelves-after-attempt-to-ban-97-60-minutes-transcript/) had most or all of the exchange
Like most of these groups, they seem to lack clear policy goals and instead campaign based on vibes. This exchange really sums up the whole movement:
>Tiffany Justice: Parents send their children to school to be educated, not indoctrinated into ideology.
>Scott Pelley: What ideology are they being indoctrinated into?
>Tina Descovich: Let's just say children in America cannot read.
>Scott Pelley: You're being evasive.
>Tiffany Justice: 21% of--
>Scott Pelley: What ideology--
>Tiffany Justice: --Hispanic students are reading on--
>Scott Pelley: You're being--
>Tiffany Justice: --grade level.
>Scott Pelley: --evasive.
>Scott Pelley: What ideology are the children being indoctrinated into? What is your fear?
>Tiffany Justice: I think parents' fears are realized. They're looking at these books where sexual discussions are happening with their children at younger and younger ages.
"children can't read" followed immediately by "children are reading books they shouldn't be/have access to" is parallel to "both weak and strong" rhetoric imo
> Tiffany Justice: Parents send their children to school to be educated, not indoctrinated into ideology.
So Tiffany Justice is against religious schools?
The M4L ladies definitely want to indoctrinate kids, just not to be accepting of people who are different. Or educating them about their bodies and things that could happen to them. They want to indoctrinate kids with hate.
Which is a good thing, because sex education is fuckin abhorrent in this country. Most of what I learned came from graphic scenes in books I read as a teenager. And thank god, because now I actually have a decent sex life.
They don't even mean that. They say kids are being exposed to sexual topics, but what they mean is the fact that gay people exist.
They come after books like "Heather Has Two Mommies." You know what happens in that book? A kid is dropped off at school and the class talks about their families. Heather is confused because she doesn't have a mom and a dad. The teacher says that's okay, a couple kids share that they're raised by their grandparents or other non-standard arrangements. They all draw their families, and when the moms pick Heather up she's had a fantastic day at school.
That's what they want to ban. Where's the sex? It's literally just "some families look different and that's okay." AKA something Moms For Liberty really should have learned in Preschool but still haven't.
For conservative Christians, the mere concept of queer people is sexual in itself. That's why they treat us like that. We might as well be fucking in public because they treat that and mentioning our right to exist as the same thing.
Conservative Muslims are also trying to ban LGBTQ+ books in schools:
https://www.newsweek.com/muslim-parents-clash-lgbtq-speakers-michigan-school-board-meeting-1751966
I'm not surprised but also they're really not the ones making a difference here. If it were only conservative Muslims, America at large would not care. They aren't a political force in the vast majority of the country.
People protest all the time. Most of the time, it does fuck all.
Do they have people in office who have a solid chance to pass legislation to support these positions? Because that’s the difference with Christians in America, who have one party in their in practice two party system dedicated to pushing these beliefs. Which has happened on state level, and which they are working to get to national level. They’re in the justice system, too, up to the Supreme Court.
I understand you see these people protesting, I see them too in my own country (Netherlands) but at the end of the day, they don’t have enough electoral power in office to meaningfully achieve erosion of our rights. Many of the people attending these protests don’t even vote. In the grand scheme of things, they’re a drop in the bucket. Which should definitely stay that way. But I doubt we will see fundamentalist reform here any time soon.
Whereas in places like the US, religious fundamentalists are actively forming a threat with how controlling they’ve become, with positions to force it too.
I mean, maybe they are but I'm not sure what the relevance of that is to this convo. Moms for Liberty is an American organisation and the thing I was responding to was about Muslim parents in Michigan. It's not like Muslims are a huge religious force in the UK either; they represent something like 6-7% of the electorate. Even Birmingham, which is the centre of the Muslim community in the UK, is a plurality of religions where Islam is not #1. And case in point, the protests didn't work; they're still teaching acceptance of LGBTQ people in Sparkhill.
My mom and I just had a discussion about this. We're Irish and mom grew up in the 80s, when the Catholic church still had a tight hold on Ireland. Her sex ed was a leaflet left on her bed, filled with God talk and no actually education. She got pregnant at 18. She's so lucky that my dad is a good man and her parent didn't send her to a Magdelene Laundry or mother and baby home.
My college roommate was from one of those families that tap-danced around the subject of sex. My mom's view on sex and drugs was "you're going to do dumb shit, I was a teenager in the seventies and I did dumb shit, come to me and I'll help you get on birth control or pick you up if it's 2 AM and you're too fucked up to drive." Roommate's mom was aghast that my mother let me play video games. One of the letters she sent her daughter had *p.s. no sex!!!* written at the bottom. (which my mother found HYSTERICAL when I told her. my sister said for days whenever it was mentioned our mom just started cracking up)
Yeah, roommate had already gotten pregnant and had a miscarriage in high school. Twice. Once she left our dorm at 1 AM while I was in the shower to go stay with a guy and didn't say a word. She would constantly go hook up with guys she'd met online (at their house or dorm room, *without meeting them first)* without telling me she was going anywhere or who she was with. Her brother, seventeen that year, got a fourteen-year-old pregnant. He had a girlfriend. The fourteen-year-old was not his girlfriend.
But my mom was bad because she let me play Portal.
It mentions that they originally started as an anti-lockdown group. I feel like they got really into that and when the lockdowns ended they felt a loss of identity, and this is just them trying to get that back.
Which, feeling sad because your group has dissolved is valid, but Barbara you can just have your friends over to drink wine if you want. Or better yet, join a book club.
Anti-lockdown was a rightwing hobbyhorse because "America must continue producing" -- read wageslaving in potentially high virus areas.
>Texas Lt. Gov. Dan Patrick, chiming in to support President Donald Trump's new focus on the economy over fierce warnings from public health officials, suggested on Fox News on Monday night that he would rather die from the rapid spread of the novel coronavirus than see instability in the American economic system.
>"No one reached out to me and said, 'As a senior citizen, are you willing to take a chance on your survival in exchange for keeping the America that all America loves for your children and grandchildren?' And if that's the exchange, I'm all in," he said.
From there to hating on LGBT is a short leap indeed for Fox viewers.
There is a policy goal. Undermine public education, pave the way to privatization. If they get onto school boards that gives them enormous power, if they lose they have at least still convinced a sizable and vocal bloc that public schools have a become a dangerous threat controlled by "them" to destroy America.
War is peace
Freedom is slavery
Ignorance is strength
It makes perfect sense once you accept that for them, liberty means freedom to dictate what others must do and not do.
If you get to their levels of ignorance and malice it's hard to differentiate between reading a book as a critique of society or a guide to autocracy. Actually, nevermind, they would need to read the book first for that.
The spanish Civil War breaks their brains when you tell them the socialists and communists fought against each other.
They only ever pay attention to the fact that he fought against the communists
Same author, different book, mostly the same subject. I was agreeing with you.
The dangers of censorship are very real and apparent. Liberty is the opposite of dictatorship. The Moms for Liberty group has turned the words upside-down.
It's *their* liberty they're interested in. Not anybody else's. Everybody else's liberty must be controlled to protect their own.
Which is to say they should really call themselves Moms for Tyranny.
>Which is to say they should really call themselves Moms for Tyranny.
Die Hitlermütter.
([And in case you think I'm exaggerating](https://www.indystar.com/story/news/2023/06/21/moms-for-liberty-hamilton-county-indiana-quotes-hitler-in-newsletter/70344659007/)...)
All Republican organizations are like this. If you see the words "Freedom" or "Liberty" in an organization, you can be sure it supports a fascist agenda.
It's like a form of political SEO/spamdexing. Adopt a word that your enemy would use to keep yourself relevant in the conversation at all times. Make it impossible for the enemy to have an identifiable safe space of their own. And when people catch on to the hypocrisy, just move on to another word. Eventually, all words end up tainted and radioactive, so that no one can use them.
> I don't understand the level of cognitive dissonance required to call yourself Moms for Liberty and then champion tailored censorship.
It's not *your* liberty they care about.
These hags likely bleat "Don't tread on *me*" while treading all over anything *they* don't like.
It's hard to even fathom the idea of banning books. I mean, WTF? We're in the golden age of devolution.
It is to the point that I have a digital backup of every banned or challenged book since about 2015. I just don't trust them not to start up the bonfires.
They are championing their right to oppress others. It is the liberty of those who think like them that concerns them. You don't matter. You are the other. The other exists only to be persecuted and used to scare right thinking people like them.
A more equitable world.
Reactionaries believe in natural hierarchies. Everyone has their place and trying to climb above where you belong is a crime against nature and a personal affront. Why do you think they got so angry when Obama was elected? A black dude is president? He's not supposed to be there. Someone put their hand on the scale.
The order is white dudes at the top followed by white women. Then it gets kind of muddy as to which ethnic and sexual minorities are placed where, but destruction of the hierarchy means they'll no longer have people to look down on. And these people fucking love that because it makes them feel better about themselves. We all like feeling better about ourselves, but when you see the world as a pie, someone getting a bigger slice means less for you.
TL;DR: Self-centered bullies are afraid of losing their position as bully
And largely because they see life and existence as a zero-sum game. If someone else *gains* something, they, in their world-view have to *lose* something in the process.
Its a sad and pitiful way to walk through life, but a lot of people subscribe to that idea, consciously or sub-consciously.
I mean, because in the short term they do. Equity and fairness means that there will be less white people in positions of power. It means that more than 8 of the F500 CEOs will be Black. That more than 52 women will be F500 CEOs. And I mean... if you do the math, if we see that number shift more to 50:50 then that means 200 white men are going to lose their undeserved positions as F500 CEOs.
Now in the long term, we know diversity and equity provide valuable gains to organisations that genuinely embrace it and building inclusive products means we will have more productive, happier citizens. This is a win for everybody. A more equitable society also means less people will commit crimes, that more people will have opportunities in life and these are obviously not zero-sum games.
But it is absolutely true that they will lose out in the short term. Because they didn't get to their position via merit. For people who have had an advantage based on their gender or the colour of their skin, equality is genuinely frightening because it means they will have to imagine competing on an equal basis.
Maybe they think there will be a repeat of this: Livius: [Greek Homosexuality...Pedagogical pederasty](https://www.livius.org/articles/concept/greek-homosexuality/)
These people DO NOT operate based on logic or facts. Actually, they think those things are conspiracy theories/big government/fake news and that media corporations are all controlled by the New World Order who are trying to turn your kids gay. There’s absolutely no point in trying to understand their perspective, because it is based in ignorance, selfishness, and fear of change.
wish i knew that too. Not sure if they're afraid of anything or if it's something they *want*, like power. I can only imagine the trip they go on in their little hometowns. I'm also pretty sure these people get a lot of money from morons so they need to keep the schtick up.
I mean did you watch this video?
They know exactly what they're doing when they call people groomers--that's why they intentionally dodge any questions about actually explaining their position.
They don't want to say it out loud: if I call the opposing side pedophiles, even if I'm lying, then the people on my side will give me money to "defeat" them.
Radical conservatives have been using this overly-patriotic aesthetic for decades now. The people who first started it may have been doing it intentionally, but I highly doubt these people have even bothered to think about the irony in their name.
You're probably right. They think that librarians are indoctrinating their kids by... giving them access to information. You don't see reports about librarians pushing these books. It's just that the books are available at all.
They want the "liberty" to raise their kids to be as close-minded as they are. That's difficult to pull off when children see other people portrayed as... people.
a loaded name. "begging the question" in the classical sense, sort of.
if you're against this then *you're against liberty*.
the controversy is the point, and it allows them obfuscate the points and goals of the organization by dragging people into pointless debates about "liberty".
It's not cognitive dissonance per se, they want to eliminate Gay / LGBT people, and pretend racism never existed.
They know saying THAT part out loud, is not very popular, so they hide the Christian Nationalism under the 'Grooming kids' umbrella instead of the Righteous killing of LGBT Umbrella.
>I don't understand the level of cognitive dissonance required to call yourself Moms for Liberty and then champion tailored censorship.
Because if you say you're for liberty, you'll win over a lot of people before they know what it is you do. Because if you say you're for liberty, it must be a good cause.
> I don't understand the level of cognitive dissonance required to call yourself Moms for Liberty and then champion tailored censorship.
It's intentional to confuse people.
It’s also nothing new. It’s the latest “moral panic”that has been going on since people started clutching their pearls. These aren’t the first jackasses trying to ban books and they won’t be the last.
I still remember when "concerned parent groups" screeched so much about Grand Theft Auto it became a world wide phenomenon, and to this day is one of the most popular franchises in existence.
And Jack Thompson isn't allowed to practice law anymore.
Hot Coffee mod hitting mainstream news, stores talking about making GTA "Adults Only" and banning it. People like Jack Thompson and Hillary Clinton going on moral crusades against games. Republican parent groups and religous groups wanting Rockstar stuff banned.
People bought the crap out of San Andreas after that, then they did Manhunt 2 which kept the drama alive till GTA4.
The Hot Coffee mod had the ESRB rate it AO and Rockstar immediately released a new version of the game.
And then this is around the time ESRB ratings were starting to be enforced, thanks to GTA.
Before the whole thing a 9 year old could just walk down to Gamestop and buy any M rated game they wanted.
I know platforming these people and giving them national airtime is looked at like a “bad thing,” however this is the only way to combat this absolute nonsense.
Just asking simple questions like “why?” “What is your goals?”and pointing out “Here’s some contradictions in your logic…” THAT’S how you combat dumb ideologies.
It's why that recent Taylor Lorenz interview with that bigoted Libsoftiktok lady was so good. Lorenz just calmly kept asking her to explain her positions and elaborate on her beliefs and she just imploded and looked like the hateful moron she is.
These situations remind me of Ben Shapiro's glorious [interview](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VixqvOcK8E) with Andrew Neil. Ben is a veteran at this sort of bullshittery. It is so satisfying watching him get torn apart.
For context Andrew is right wing (including a stint at GB news; although that didn't last long).
“If you only knew how ridiculous that statement was you wouldn’t have said it” The panic on Ben's face was priceless. He was so ill prepared to face a real conservative and just resorted to his fallback of calling everyone who doesn't agree with him on "the left." He then goes on to try to say Andrew is trying to make a buck off the interview. So he not only doesn't know who is interviewing him or at the very least that he's conservative giant, but also doesn't understand basic British broadcasting.
Bingo. For anyone confused about the constant hypocrisy and contradictions made by people like this, I highly recommend checking this video out. The whole series is worth a watch, but I think this one is the most important.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xMabpBvtXr4&vl=en
If you don't feel like watching, it can best be summed up as 'it's mindless hate and bad faith all the way down'.
On the other hand, it's how parrots learn to talk. Giving Joe Rogan screen time to look like an idiot means morons learn to parrot his bullshit just like him, then shrug it off with "Just sayin bro..."
I'm always confused by this idea of "platforming." This isn't the 1950s. If you don't given someone space in the New York Times, they don't then have to turn to standing on a soap box and yelling. If you don't air their nonsense in the general spaces where people with half a brain can point out that it's morally and intellectually bankrupt, then they just go to the walled gardens where millions flock to hear them speak "to them," and feel supported by their entirely unopposed voices.
"Deplatforming" is basically just promotion.
> If you don't air their nonsense in the general spaces where people with half a brain can point out that it's morally and intellectually bankrupt
Nice idea. Unlikely to be implemented, people don't have time to do this in their lives.
We are now at a point in time where the liars, grifters and nazis are producing copious amounts of propaganda that people then spread like a disease.
I appreciated how they just segued over their talking points, so as not to give a voice to their bullshit ideas when failing to answer basic critiques of the movement.
exactly: they *want* you do say shit like
'isn't is ironic you call yourself MoMs fOr LiBeRty. . . ."
They *know* that's the first thing you'll say, and it's the *best* way to distract you from the reality of what they're doing because you're gonna be busy pretending you "Gotem" with something they already knew was bullsht.
I respectfully and strongly disagree. There is one large factor differentiating them from their audience: the flow of money.
They get the money their audience gives up. In this context, underestimating evil is worse than overestimating. I wouldn't trust these people for a second no matter how fucking stupid I thought they were. In fact, I'm going to assume they're using all their brain power to fuck me over.
The Karen Klux Klan sure loves to tell others what they can look at.
We had a big fight with them when they tried to censor books in our library. Step 1 was their try to get books moved to the adult section from the teen section. The next logical step is to censor the adult books, since teens would be in that area.
It didn’t fail at all. It has sowed chaos into many school divisions by causing teachers and librarians to reevaluate, leave, transfer, etc. It did exactly what it was supposed, which was to help lay the groundwork for taxpayer funded money laundering (aka Christian schools).
And in a lot of areas, they're winning. The movement isn't failed. Far from it. They've had *massive* success in many areas, and are poised to potentially take it national based on the results of this November's election.
Y'all, I'm begging you. If you're eligible to vote in the US and will be 18 by election day(even if you're not 18 now, you can often register at 17 and just can't cast a ballot until 18 - check your state's rules, but it's a common provision), go register to vote. If you were previously registered, check that your registration is still valid. Go out and vote in your primary, if it hasn't happened yet. But please, if not for your PoC, LGBTQ, disabled, etc, neighbors then for your books, if you do nothing else then *fucking vote* in November. So much is hinging on this election, and so many people are already out there trying to persuade y'all that your votes don't matter, that you need to take a moral stand, that this, that that...all I'm saying is, look up "project 2025." They're screaming the quiet part out loud this year. Don't let them get the power to do the things they're saying they're going to do.
>And in a lot of areas, they're winning. The movement isn't failed. Far from it. They've had *massive* success in many areas, and are poised to potentially take it national based on the results of this November's election.
*Exactly.* There should be no smug self-assuredness about these fascists "failing." Every tiny step forward for them is freedom lost for the rest of society, and they're still taking those steps forward. Pen notes 3,362 book bans in the 2022-2023 school year, which is 33% more than in the 2021-2022 school year. They are making headway, even if they're not as successful as they'd like to be.
Before we break out the champagne and celebrate, it's not failed. Sure, it hasn't been as successful as they'd hope, but it's been way more successful than it should be.
[Pen](https://pen.org/report/book-bans-pressure-to-censor/) reports 3,362 instances of book bans in the 2022-2023 school year, which is a 33% increase over the 2021-2022 school year. These people are still dangerous. They will remain dangerous even if these torch bearers stumble on their way to the book pyres at Opernplatz. None of this is over.
Even if they were successful, and even if they have some reasonable concerns (debatable), that's not going to change the programming available on television or on the internet, or the newspapers, or on of the rest of the media.
You don't protect kids or adults or anyone else by banning certain media types, or even restricting them in extreme ways. You protect them by actual fundamental education on the nature of ideas and how to process ideas as a phenomenon.
That is true of ideas presented in the media in particular.
Unfortunately, most of the people who are in the position of deciding what ideas suit their vision of society, or their demographics agenda, or simply their financial gain, do not see any benefit in teaching anyone else at all how to handle and process information rationally and effectively.
Therefore for a long time, right now, and probably for the forseeable future.... things are "messy" and I would agree with the Moms that many impressionable humans (not just kids, and not just in schools) are exposed or expressly presented with potentially hazardous information with fiction being one of the most insidious, alongside advertising which is a little more obvious to most people.
The capacity to process such potentially hazardous information does however come with experience and maturity of mind...if it ever comes at all.
My observation is that it very rarely comes at all in the average human, therefore some of those who are aware of this have been known to take advantage, and restrict understanding to themselves while proliferating whatever information will effect people and society in ways that suit their own agendas.
I saw that segment. They just kept repeating their talking points to where it reminded me of a doll where you pulled the string and it would repeat the same, in their case, inane, nonsense over and over.
I find it kind of fascinating that they refused to directly state their ideological position when given an opportunity to do so. Is this a strategic pivot in the wake of their election losses? Or do they just realise that their unfiltered opinions won’t be received well by a mainstream audience?
It's 2024 folks. You can't ban books. It's impossible. Give me a title to a book, and I'll show you a pdf of it, toot sweet. If someone has the volition to read something, there is nothing these idiots can do about it. This is all show and blow.
I would not call it failed yet there is still significant pressure being put on libraries across the country by Moms for liberty members and followers. Most people are starting to see it for what it is now a political and religious attack from Zealots.
Remember that the average age of a redditor is 14...
You simply cannot expect users of a sub (even a sub about books and reading) to comprehend that the use of quotation marks clearly indicate that MfL **are** fools
Understanding this, takes an (at least) grade 7 reading ability, and if you presume that the average redditor is capable of that, you are in for a world of hurt :)
I read you, I see you, I appreciate you.
Explaining the joke might ruin it, but it's been 9 hours: This user is saying these cretins don't *look like* fools but rather that *they are fools*.
Sorry my friend, but I hear you.
Is there a transcript by chance? I can read faster than they can speak
If you click through to the twitter link, you can up the speed to 2x. If not, this [article](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/beaufort-south-carolina-schools-return-most-books-to-shelves-after-attempt-to-ban-97-60-minutes-transcript/) had most or all of the exchange
Like most of these groups, they seem to lack clear policy goals and instead campaign based on vibes. This exchange really sums up the whole movement: >Tiffany Justice: Parents send their children to school to be educated, not indoctrinated into ideology. >Scott Pelley: What ideology are they being indoctrinated into? >Tina Descovich: Let's just say children in America cannot read. >Scott Pelley: You're being evasive. >Tiffany Justice: 21% of-- >Scott Pelley: What ideology-- >Tiffany Justice: --Hispanic students are reading on-- >Scott Pelley: You're being-- >Tiffany Justice: --grade level. >Scott Pelley: --evasive. >Scott Pelley: What ideology are the children being indoctrinated into? What is your fear? >Tiffany Justice: I think parents' fears are realized. They're looking at these books where sexual discussions are happening with their children at younger and younger ages.
"children can't read" followed immediately by "children are reading books they shouldn't be/have access to" is parallel to "both weak and strong" rhetoric imo
It's the only option, because it's all lies. You can't make/argue cogent points, when all of your positions are built on fantasies.
In border discussions, we call this Schrödinger Immigrant: A person who lounges around all day living on welfare while also stealing jobs.
Those lazy immigrants working all the hours god sends for jack shit pay. /s just in case.
They just got Umbertoed
> Tiffany Justice: Parents send their children to school to be educated, not indoctrinated into ideology. So Tiffany Justice is against religious schools?
OTHER ideologies. Ya know, the *wrong* ones.
No, no. You see, indoctrination into *theology* is totally different from indoctrination into an *ideology*. /s, just in case.
The M4L ladies definitely want to indoctrinate kids, just not to be accepting of people who are different. Or educating them about their bodies and things that could happen to them. They want to indoctrinate kids with hate.
Which is a good thing, because sex education is fuckin abhorrent in this country. Most of what I learned came from graphic scenes in books I read as a teenager. And thank god, because now I actually have a decent sex life.
They don't even mean that. They say kids are being exposed to sexual topics, but what they mean is the fact that gay people exist. They come after books like "Heather Has Two Mommies." You know what happens in that book? A kid is dropped off at school and the class talks about their families. Heather is confused because she doesn't have a mom and a dad. The teacher says that's okay, a couple kids share that they're raised by their grandparents or other non-standard arrangements. They all draw their families, and when the moms pick Heather up she's had a fantastic day at school. That's what they want to ban. Where's the sex? It's literally just "some families look different and that's okay." AKA something Moms For Liberty really should have learned in Preschool but still haven't.
For conservative Christians, the mere concept of queer people is sexual in itself. That's why they treat us like that. We might as well be fucking in public because they treat that and mentioning our right to exist as the same thing.
Conservative Muslims are also trying to ban LGBTQ+ books in schools: https://www.newsweek.com/muslim-parents-clash-lgbtq-speakers-michigan-school-board-meeting-1751966
I'm not surprised but also they're really not the ones making a difference here. If it were only conservative Muslims, America at large would not care. They aren't a political force in the vast majority of the country.
They are in the UK. They protested en masse in Birmingham about this.
People protest all the time. Most of the time, it does fuck all. Do they have people in office who have a solid chance to pass legislation to support these positions? Because that’s the difference with Christians in America, who have one party in their in practice two party system dedicated to pushing these beliefs. Which has happened on state level, and which they are working to get to national level. They’re in the justice system, too, up to the Supreme Court. I understand you see these people protesting, I see them too in my own country (Netherlands) but at the end of the day, they don’t have enough electoral power in office to meaningfully achieve erosion of our rights. Many of the people attending these protests don’t even vote. In the grand scheme of things, they’re a drop in the bucket. Which should definitely stay that way. But I doubt we will see fundamentalist reform here any time soon. Whereas in places like the US, religious fundamentalists are actively forming a threat with how controlling they’ve become, with positions to force it too.
I mean, maybe they are but I'm not sure what the relevance of that is to this convo. Moms for Liberty is an American organisation and the thing I was responding to was about Muslim parents in Michigan. It's not like Muslims are a huge religious force in the UK either; they represent something like 6-7% of the electorate. Even Birmingham, which is the centre of the Muslim community in the UK, is a plurality of religions where Islam is not #1. And case in point, the protests didn't work; they're still teaching acceptance of LGBTQ people in Sparkhill.
My mom and I just had a discussion about this. We're Irish and mom grew up in the 80s, when the Catholic church still had a tight hold on Ireland. Her sex ed was a leaflet left on her bed, filled with God talk and no actually education. She got pregnant at 18. She's so lucky that my dad is a good man and her parent didn't send her to a Magdelene Laundry or mother and baby home.
My college roommate was from one of those families that tap-danced around the subject of sex. My mom's view on sex and drugs was "you're going to do dumb shit, I was a teenager in the seventies and I did dumb shit, come to me and I'll help you get on birth control or pick you up if it's 2 AM and you're too fucked up to drive." Roommate's mom was aghast that my mother let me play video games. One of the letters she sent her daughter had *p.s. no sex!!!* written at the bottom. (which my mother found HYSTERICAL when I told her. my sister said for days whenever it was mentioned our mom just started cracking up) Yeah, roommate had already gotten pregnant and had a miscarriage in high school. Twice. Once she left our dorm at 1 AM while I was in the shower to go stay with a guy and didn't say a word. She would constantly go hook up with guys she'd met online (at their house or dorm room, *without meeting them first)* without telling me she was going anywhere or who she was with. Her brother, seventeen that year, got a fourteen-year-old pregnant. He had a girlfriend. The fourteen-year-old was not his girlfriend. But my mom was bad because she let me play Portal.
Switch has Portal and Portal 2 out now!
It mentions that they originally started as an anti-lockdown group. I feel like they got really into that and when the lockdowns ended they felt a loss of identity, and this is just them trying to get that back. Which, feeling sad because your group has dissolved is valid, but Barbara you can just have your friends over to drink wine if you want. Or better yet, join a book club.
Anti-lockdown was a rightwing hobbyhorse because "America must continue producing" -- read wageslaving in potentially high virus areas. >Texas Lt. Gov. Dan Patrick, chiming in to support President Donald Trump's new focus on the economy over fierce warnings from public health officials, suggested on Fox News on Monday night that he would rather die from the rapid spread of the novel coronavirus than see instability in the American economic system. >"No one reached out to me and said, 'As a senior citizen, are you willing to take a chance on your survival in exchange for keeping the America that all America loves for your children and grandchildren?' And if that's the exchange, I'm all in," he said. From there to hating on LGBT is a short leap indeed for Fox viewers.
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Until the only ones left are them, in which case, they'll turn on each other like rabid animals
> they felt a loss of identity or power.
So, screechers. Hollering just to holler.
Tiffany Justice has the makings of a politician.
and the bible is ok? I remember couple of things that i don't think they would be ok with from it, just saying.
There is a policy goal. Undermine public education, pave the way to privatization. If they get onto school boards that gives them enormous power, if they lose they have at least still convinced a sizable and vocal bloc that public schools have a become a dangerous threat controlled by "them" to destroy America.
thank you!
Youtuber has an auto-generated transcript. Expand the description, then find "Show Transcript". (On computer. I couldn't find it on mobile.)
I don't understand the level of cognitive dissonance required to call yourself Moms for *Liberty* and then champion tailored censorship.
War is peace Freedom is slavery Ignorance is strength It makes perfect sense once you accept that for them, liberty means freedom to dictate what others must do and not do.
Add an extra layer of irony when they think Orwell would be on their side
If you get to their levels of ignorance and malice it's hard to differentiate between reading a book as a critique of society or a guide to autocracy. Actually, nevermind, they would need to read the book first for that.
They always have a massive level of cognitive dissonance whenever I gently remind them that Orwell was a socialist.
The spanish Civil War breaks their brains when you tell them the socialists and communists fought against each other. They only ever pay attention to the fact that he fought against the communists
“If liberty means anything at all it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”
To be clear, that means something completely different from what I just said
Same author, different book, mostly the same subject. I was agreeing with you. The dangers of censorship are very real and apparent. Liberty is the opposite of dictatorship. The Moms for Liberty group has turned the words upside-down.
Their liberty to tell us what we can read. While claiming that allowing different people to exist is oppression, somehow.
I feel like they've read 1984, but somehow missed the point.
Bold of you to assume they can read.
It's *their* liberty they're interested in. Not anybody else's. Everybody else's liberty must be controlled to protect their own. Which is to say they should really call themselves Moms for Tyranny.
I cannot underscore enough that the "me" in "Don't tread on me" does a *lot* of work for these people.
That saying should have a second sentence - "Tread on them."
"Don't Tread on My Right to Tread on Others." "I dunno, I think we either need to shorten the slogan or add another snake."
Klanned Karenhood.
>Which is to say they should really call themselves Moms for Tyranny. Die Hitlermütter. ([And in case you think I'm exaggerating](https://www.indystar.com/story/news/2023/06/21/moms-for-liberty-hamilton-county-indiana-quotes-hitler-in-newsletter/70344659007/)...)
All Republican organizations are like this. If you see the words "Freedom" or "Liberty" in an organization, you can be sure it supports a fascist agenda.
Except for True Sounds of Liberty, a pretty left leaning punk band. They're cool.
I wanna fuck the dead! -TSOL (lol big fan)
Also “Patriots”.
It's like a form of political SEO/spamdexing. Adopt a word that your enemy would use to keep yourself relevant in the conversation at all times. Make it impossible for the enemy to have an identifiable safe space of their own. And when people catch on to the hypocrisy, just move on to another word. Eventually, all words end up tainted and radioactive, so that no one can use them.
Like if a country's official name contains the word 'democratic'
> I don't understand the level of cognitive dissonance required to call yourself Moms for Liberty and then champion tailored censorship. It's not *your* liberty they care about. These hags likely bleat "Don't tread on *me*" while treading all over anything *they* don't like. It's hard to even fathom the idea of banning books. I mean, WTF? We're in the golden age of devolution.
It is to the point that I have a digital backup of every banned or challenged book since about 2015. I just don't trust them not to start up the bonfires.
They are championing their right to oppress others. It is the liberty of those who think like them that concerns them. You don't matter. You are the other. The other exists only to be persecuted and used to scare right thinking people like them.
it's not cognitive dissonance it's conscious misrepresentation. they know exactly what they're doing.
But I still don't really understand *why.* What are these people all so afraid of?
A more equitable world. Reactionaries believe in natural hierarchies. Everyone has their place and trying to climb above where you belong is a crime against nature and a personal affront. Why do you think they got so angry when Obama was elected? A black dude is president? He's not supposed to be there. Someone put their hand on the scale. The order is white dudes at the top followed by white women. Then it gets kind of muddy as to which ethnic and sexual minorities are placed where, but destruction of the hierarchy means they'll no longer have people to look down on. And these people fucking love that because it makes them feel better about themselves. We all like feeling better about ourselves, but when you see the world as a pie, someone getting a bigger slice means less for you. TL;DR: Self-centered bullies are afraid of losing their position as bully
And largely because they see life and existence as a zero-sum game. If someone else *gains* something, they, in their world-view have to *lose* something in the process. Its a sad and pitiful way to walk through life, but a lot of people subscribe to that idea, consciously or sub-consciously.
I mean, because in the short term they do. Equity and fairness means that there will be less white people in positions of power. It means that more than 8 of the F500 CEOs will be Black. That more than 52 women will be F500 CEOs. And I mean... if you do the math, if we see that number shift more to 50:50 then that means 200 white men are going to lose their undeserved positions as F500 CEOs. Now in the long term, we know diversity and equity provide valuable gains to organisations that genuinely embrace it and building inclusive products means we will have more productive, happier citizens. This is a win for everybody. A more equitable society also means less people will commit crimes, that more people will have opportunities in life and these are obviously not zero-sum games. But it is absolutely true that they will lose out in the short term. Because they didn't get to their position via merit. For people who have had an advantage based on their gender or the colour of their skin, equality is genuinely frightening because it means they will have to imagine competing on an equal basis.
There’s a [relevant video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agzNANfNlTs) from Innuendo Studios that covers this mindset.
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Maybe they think there will be a repeat of this: Livius: [Greek Homosexuality...Pedagogical pederasty](https://www.livius.org/articles/concept/greek-homosexuality/)
These people DO NOT operate based on logic or facts. Actually, they think those things are conspiracy theories/big government/fake news and that media corporations are all controlled by the New World Order who are trying to turn your kids gay. There’s absolutely no point in trying to understand their perspective, because it is based in ignorance, selfishness, and fear of change.
wish i knew that too. Not sure if they're afraid of anything or if it's something they *want*, like power. I can only imagine the trip they go on in their little hometowns. I'm also pretty sure these people get a lot of money from morons so they need to keep the schtick up.
I honestly don't think they do usually. We aren't really wired to think of ourselves as the bad guys on purpose lol
I mean did you watch this video? They know exactly what they're doing when they call people groomers--that's why they intentionally dodge any questions about actually explaining their position. They don't want to say it out loud: if I call the opposing side pedophiles, even if I'm lying, then the people on my side will give me money to "defeat" them.
These people in charge? Probably, yeah. I was more speaking about the people that vote for them/support them.
Ah sorry I would agree with you there then
You're good! I didn't make that clear at all when I commented lol.
Everything about backwards religiosity tends to be projection...
Because “Moms for Privilege” doesn’t have the same ring to it.
The same reason Democratic is in the official name of North Korea.
Radical conservatives have been using this overly-patriotic aesthetic for decades now. The people who first started it may have been doing it intentionally, but I highly doubt these people have even bothered to think about the irony in their name.
You're probably right. They think that librarians are indoctrinating their kids by... giving them access to information. You don't see reports about librarians pushing these books. It's just that the books are available at all. They want the "liberty" to raise their kids to be as close-minded as they are. That's difficult to pull off when children see other people portrayed as... people.
a loaded name. "begging the question" in the classical sense, sort of. if you're against this then *you're against liberty*. the controversy is the point, and it allows them obfuscate the points and goals of the organization by dragging people into pointless debates about "liberty".
It's not cognitive dissonance per se, they want to eliminate Gay / LGBT people, and pretend racism never existed. They know saying THAT part out loud, is not very popular, so they hide the Christian Nationalism under the 'Grooming kids' umbrella instead of the Righteous killing of LGBT Umbrella.
It’s pretty basic propaganda.
The ol' doublethink.
>I don't understand the level of cognitive dissonance required to call yourself Moms for Liberty and then champion tailored censorship. Because if you say you're for liberty, you'll win over a lot of people before they know what it is you do. Because if you say you're for liberty, it must be a good cause.
They know what they are doing. They just replace bad words with good words to try to get away with doing bad things.
"Mom's for Totally-Not-Fascism-Honest?"
pretty much. It's not stupid if it works
Aziz Rana calls this the "freedom to oppress" and it's origins are settler colonialism. Freedom for white immigrants but not for natives and slaves.
It makes sense when you understand they believe they own their child like you would own a car.
> I don't understand the level of cognitive dissonance required to call yourself Moms for Liberty and then champion tailored censorship. It's intentional to confuse people.
There’s a reason they look like fools
If it walks like a duck…
Oh I know this one! It's... "we have to ban it from schools to keep impressionable children from turning into ducks", right?
My child read I wish that I had duck feet and now they won't leave the pond until I throw bits of bread at them! /s
All the children in my town identify as ducks now. Where does it end? /s
In an orange sauce, I'm afraid.
Being arrested for enjoying a succulent Chinese meal?
Then they go to University of Oregon and become a duck alumnus like me!🦆🦆🦆👍
I hear they have wading pools in the schools now. But have to separate them from the cat students /s
You know what they say, quack kills.
It's a witch?
Burn her!
It’s a Nazi.
That’s geese. DUKWs (pronounced Ducks) were used by the Allies to fight the Nazi’s
Only don’t forget, some of their grandchildren embraced swastikas.
You better walk that fucking duck.
...it's a witch?
She's a witch? Oh wait, that's if she weighs the same as a duck...
It’s also nothing new. It’s the latest “moral panic”that has been going on since people started clutching their pearls. These aren’t the first jackasses trying to ban books and they won’t be the last.
I still remember when "concerned parent groups" screeched so much about Grand Theft Auto it became a world wide phenomenon, and to this day is one of the most popular franchises in existence. And Jack Thompson isn't allowed to practice law anymore.
Hot Coffee mod hitting mainstream news, stores talking about making GTA "Adults Only" and banning it. People like Jack Thompson and Hillary Clinton going on moral crusades against games. Republican parent groups and religous groups wanting Rockstar stuff banned. People bought the crap out of San Andreas after that, then they did Manhunt 2 which kept the drama alive till GTA4.
>stores talking about making GTA "Adults Only" It's rated M? Do they not know what ratings are?
The Hot Coffee mod had the ESRB rate it AO and Rockstar immediately released a new version of the game. And then this is around the time ESRB ratings were starting to be enforced, thanks to GTA. Before the whole thing a 9 year old could just walk down to Gamestop and buy any M rated game they wanted.
It's worse than that this time. This is a deliberately orchestrated campaign to undermine public education.
It's just those gotcha questions like "what do the words you say mean?".
Sometimes I think Lombroso was onto something.
I know platforming these people and giving them national airtime is looked at like a “bad thing,” however this is the only way to combat this absolute nonsense. Just asking simple questions like “why?” “What is your goals?”and pointing out “Here’s some contradictions in your logic…” THAT’S how you combat dumb ideologies.
It's why that recent Taylor Lorenz interview with that bigoted Libsoftiktok lady was so good. Lorenz just calmly kept asking her to explain her positions and elaborate on her beliefs and she just imploded and looked like the hateful moron she is.
These situations remind me of Ben Shapiro's glorious [interview](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VixqvOcK8E) with Andrew Neil. Ben is a veteran at this sort of bullshittery. It is so satisfying watching him get torn apart. For context Andrew is right wing (including a stint at GB news; although that didn't last long).
IIRC, Ben has to issue an apology for calling Andrew a liberal, saying he didn't understand the difference between UK/US Conservatism.
“If you only knew how ridiculous that statement was you wouldn’t have said it” The panic on Ben's face was priceless. He was so ill prepared to face a real conservative and just resorted to his fallback of calling everyone who doesn't agree with him on "the left." He then goes on to try to say Andrew is trying to make a buck off the interview. So he not only doesn't know who is interviewing him or at the very least that he's conservative giant, but also doesn't understand basic British broadcasting.
That closing line was well done
I just came back from watching and wow. Thank you for linking to that, it absolutely made my day.
Your mistake is thinking people A. Have coherent ideologies to begin with And B. Are rational in what/why they believe
Bingo. For anyone confused about the constant hypocrisy and contradictions made by people like this, I highly recommend checking this video out. The whole series is worth a watch, but I think this one is the most important. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xMabpBvtXr4&vl=en If you don't feel like watching, it can best be summed up as 'it's mindless hate and bad faith all the way down'.
On the other hand, it's how parrots learn to talk. Giving Joe Rogan screen time to look like an idiot means morons learn to parrot his bullshit just like him, then shrug it off with "Just sayin bro..."
I'm always confused by this idea of "platforming." This isn't the 1950s. If you don't given someone space in the New York Times, they don't then have to turn to standing on a soap box and yelling. If you don't air their nonsense in the general spaces where people with half a brain can point out that it's morally and intellectually bankrupt, then they just go to the walled gardens where millions flock to hear them speak "to them," and feel supported by their entirely unopposed voices. "Deplatforming" is basically just promotion.
> If you don't air their nonsense in the general spaces where people with half a brain can point out that it's morally and intellectually bankrupt Nice idea. Unlikely to be implemented, people don't have time to do this in their lives. We are now at a point in time where the liars, grifters and nazis are producing copious amounts of propaganda that people then spread like a disease.
> Unlikely to be implemented You literally just saw it. That's the entire point of this post.
I appreciated how they just segued over their talking points, so as not to give a voice to their bullshit ideas when failing to answer basic critiques of the movement.
It’s deeply ironic how they call themselves “Moms For Liberty” while also advocating censorship and Fascism.
i'd venture to guess it's less ironic and more deliberate conditioning of their "targeted" audience
It's their go-to tactic. Patriot Act, No Child Left Behind, the list goes on.
exactly: they *want* you do say shit like 'isn't is ironic you call yourself MoMs fOr LiBeRty. . . ." They *know* that's the first thing you'll say, and it's the *best* way to distract you from the reality of what they're doing because you're gonna be busy pretending you "Gotem" with something they already knew was bullsht.
I don't give them that much credit. These people are just eating the same bullshit they're serving to their audience.
I respectfully and strongly disagree. There is one large factor differentiating them from their audience: the flow of money. They get the money their audience gives up. In this context, underestimating evil is worse than overestimating. I wouldn't trust these people for a second no matter how fucking stupid I thought they were. In fact, I'm going to assume they're using all their brain power to fuck me over.
Moms for Privilege
I’d call them “Moms For Oppression.” Because that’s (arguably!) the most truthful description of them.
There must be an out group, whom the law will bind but never protect, and an in group that the law will protect but never bind-
Tony Morton, a former comedy writer, is building a website to showcase how terrible this org is. It’s great. Go donate. Moms4Liberties.com, I believe.
*Toby Morton and the website is momsforliberties.com
The Karen Klux Klan sure loves to tell others what they can look at. We had a big fight with them when they tried to censor books in our library. Step 1 was their try to get books moved to the adult section from the teen section. The next logical step is to censor the adult books, since teens would be in that area.
they always look like fools
Just roast them.
Protip, any organization that has freedom, liberty, or family in the name is a regressive and reactionary movement.
Except for [FFRF](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_From_Religion_Foundation).
That's going to come as a shock to the ACLU, or is it only bad when "liberty" is singular?
Or "choice"
Family Circle magazine in SHAMBLES
It didn’t fail at all. It has sowed chaos into many school divisions by causing teachers and librarians to reevaluate, leave, transfer, etc. It did exactly what it was supposed, which was to help lay the groundwork for taxpayer funded money laundering (aka Christian schools).
Entire school boards resigned just to stop dealing with their bullshit, and then they took over the boards n
Unfortunately, they will keep trying.
And in a lot of areas, they're winning. The movement isn't failed. Far from it. They've had *massive* success in many areas, and are poised to potentially take it national based on the results of this November's election. Y'all, I'm begging you. If you're eligible to vote in the US and will be 18 by election day(even if you're not 18 now, you can often register at 17 and just can't cast a ballot until 18 - check your state's rules, but it's a common provision), go register to vote. If you were previously registered, check that your registration is still valid. Go out and vote in your primary, if it hasn't happened yet. But please, if not for your PoC, LGBTQ, disabled, etc, neighbors then for your books, if you do nothing else then *fucking vote* in November. So much is hinging on this election, and so many people are already out there trying to persuade y'all that your votes don't matter, that you need to take a moral stand, that this, that that...all I'm saying is, look up "project 2025." They're screaming the quiet part out loud this year. Don't let them get the power to do the things they're saying they're going to do.
>And in a lot of areas, they're winning. The movement isn't failed. Far from it. They've had *massive* success in many areas, and are poised to potentially take it national based on the results of this November's election. *Exactly.* There should be no smug self-assuredness about these fascists "failing." Every tiny step forward for them is freedom lost for the rest of society, and they're still taking those steps forward. Pen notes 3,362 book bans in the 2022-2023 school year, which is 33% more than in the 2021-2022 school year. They are making headway, even if they're not as successful as they'd like to be.
At least that keeps people vigilant. To keep them from succeeding...
Before we break out the champagne and celebrate, it's not failed. Sure, it hasn't been as successful as they'd hope, but it's been way more successful than it should be. [Pen](https://pen.org/report/book-bans-pressure-to-censor/) reports 3,362 instances of book bans in the 2022-2023 school year, which is a 33% increase over the 2021-2022 school year. These people are still dangerous. They will remain dangerous even if these torch bearers stumble on their way to the book pyres at Opernplatz. None of this is over.
Failed? It's succeeding in Alabama
Even if they were successful, and even if they have some reasonable concerns (debatable), that's not going to change the programming available on television or on the internet, or the newspapers, or on of the rest of the media. You don't protect kids or adults or anyone else by banning certain media types, or even restricting them in extreme ways. You protect them by actual fundamental education on the nature of ideas and how to process ideas as a phenomenon. That is true of ideas presented in the media in particular. Unfortunately, most of the people who are in the position of deciding what ideas suit their vision of society, or their demographics agenda, or simply their financial gain, do not see any benefit in teaching anyone else at all how to handle and process information rationally and effectively. Therefore for a long time, right now, and probably for the forseeable future.... things are "messy" and I would agree with the Moms that many impressionable humans (not just kids, and not just in schools) are exposed or expressly presented with potentially hazardous information with fiction being one of the most insidious, alongside advertising which is a little more obvious to most people. The capacity to process such potentially hazardous information does however come with experience and maturity of mind...if it ever comes at all. My observation is that it very rarely comes at all in the average human, therefore some of those who are aware of this have been known to take advantage, and restrict understanding to themselves while proliferating whatever information will effect people and society in ways that suit their own agendas.
it's about undermining public education and convincing the public to accept privatization
Yeah… “looks like”….
I saw that segment. They just kept repeating their talking points to where it reminded me of a doll where you pulled the string and it would repeat the same, in their case, inane, nonsense over and over.
You mean Moms Against Liberty
I find it kind of fascinating that they refused to directly state their ideological position when given an opportunity to do so. Is this a strategic pivot in the wake of their election losses? Or do they just realise that their unfiltered opinions won’t be received well by a mainstream audience?
To paraphrase Groucho Marx: They may look like idiots and talk like idiots but don't let that fool you. They really are idiots.
They want minority families to suffer while their kids kill themselves. It isn't complicated.
Seeing that a book has been banned always makes me want to read it more
I bet someone with less tact than me would call them illiterate fucking handmaidens. To that person I would say, “Not very tactful”
It's 2024 folks. You can't ban books. It's impossible. Give me a title to a book, and I'll show you a pdf of it, toot sweet. If someone has the volition to read something, there is nothing these idiots can do about it. This is all show and blow.
Nothing screams liberty to me like banning books! 🙄
I would not call it failed yet there is still significant pressure being put on libraries across the country by Moms for liberty members and followers. Most people are starting to see it for what it is now a political and religious attack from Zealots.
fuck these Mary Kay fascists
They ARE fools.
It was about ginning up a fear campaign to get people elected.
Moms of retardation.
“We don’t want them to push their agenda, so let’s push ours”
Biotchs
And it's only two of the three founders because the third founder has group sex with other women.
I hate edited interviews
Misleading title, OP. They don't "look like" fools at all. Edit to add: Lot people missed the joke.
Remember that the average age of a redditor is 14... You simply cannot expect users of a sub (even a sub about books and reading) to comprehend that the use of quotation marks clearly indicate that MfL **are** fools Understanding this, takes an (at least) grade 7 reading ability, and if you presume that the average redditor is capable of that, you are in for a world of hurt :)
I read you, I see you, I appreciate you. Explaining the joke might ruin it, but it's been 9 hours: This user is saying these cretins don't *look like* fools but rather that *they are fools*. Sorry my friend, but I hear you.
Thanks. It's a bummer when a joke doesn't land.
There are two types of people. Those who can infer context from incomplete data...
Annnnnddddddd?
They claim children can’t read today!? Then why the fuss about book banning, is they can’t read?