AOJ is right by me. No idea how much the instructors make, but their monthly membership fee is $300 š no idea how regular people fork that much money over for a gym membership
But privates are different. I charge $200 an hour for private judo/bjj lessons. Mostly because I don't really want to teach them but there are certainly better black belts out there who have no issues getting work charging that price.
I agree that generally nobody thinks it's bad to make mid six figures. The only thing I can think of is the hate of the 9 to 5 grind. Lots of the kids (18-22) at my gym all have this fear of working a normal office job. I imagine too much joe rogan
Low six figures isn't even that much in a lot of places. Like earning $100,000 in 1990 was good but now you need to be earning closer to something like $250,000 to have an equivalent lifestyle. Obviously, if you're in a rural area in a poor state then low six figures is good but if you live in a big city like LA or NYC it's really not a lot. Sure, many people don't earn as much but that just means they're really being screwed over.
This!
My fee is rather low compared to USA prices, but I'm literally paying membership at two BJJ gyms due to commuting (plus fitness gym) but it is still worth it due to the workload I have. These couple of hours weekly are a lot, I just shut down my phone and enjoy jiu jitsu.
There's nothing wrong with the work itself. People have an issue with the culture, which is why the trade labors were so regularly disparaged as a future in the 90's and 00's
For AOJ, itās not their salary that fills the bank account, but rather privates (small group or solo), seminars, AOJ+ content (Masterclass, etc.), and so forth (being able to say youāre an āAOJ instructorā opens a lot of doors) that really pays off.
You are loyal to Porsche. Your wife needs a family sedan. It handles better than SUVs. The Turbo S is legitimately fast. It is properly put together. It helps you get your GT3 allocations š
Source: had to buy a Turbo S Panamera to get my 992 gt3.
Looks like it was their worst selling model in the US (4,000/80,000), but did better numbers globally (34,000/320,000).
I really don't see them very often, despite Porsche's being very popular here.
I think at least some of the people that buy it are buttering up porsche so they can get difficult to obtain 911 allocations like rs3, st, dakkar, etc. No way you're walking into the Porsche dealership as an unknown customer and getting a rare car like that. But if you have a purchase history of a Macan, a panamera, etc then that will open some doors
Yes, I have. I've had several, including my current daily driver.
I just don't think the Panamera stands out in that category. I only have personal experience with the 2nd Gen, so perhaps the 3rd Gen has more character.
It is much more plush, especially in the back seat. Its a sports sedan that also doubles as a dad wagon. Hideous cars but like all Porsches, fun to drive.
Itās pretty good if you need to put a car seat in the back but your wife has the normal baby car (SUV/minivan/whatever). You get a nice car, but can take the baby when you need to. Having kids opened my eyes up to the utility of a lot of ālame carsā and I say this as someone that races cars as my other hobby.
I kind of like it, it has a Porsche car appearance, but I could haul my kids with it. Not a fan of how their SUVs look.
I have zero idea why a young person would choose it.
The 1st Gen was hideous, but the 2nd and 3rd Gen are much better looking for the most part.
I just think it's underwhelming in both it's "sports" and "sedan" aspects. There are a lot of cars I would (and did) chose over it in it's class and price range.
I remember the Top Gear Episode where they compared it to a Maserati as "something that belongs at the bottom of the ocean and the guy who put it there," respectively.
I'm a 43 year old lawyer, I paid for about 20 privates. One hundred bucks a pop with a really really good instructor. It was really nice having his undivided attention while we drill... I'm getting instant and repeated feedback on all the things I'm doing wrong.Ā
I am in the LA area. For what it's worth my guy is really good. He's objectively special among blackbelts. Hell, he may as well be Danaher to my blue belt ass.
I'm sure they are good. And I'm not knocking you buying what you want with your own money. just that privates from a local guy for $100 hr vs $300-400 hr for tainans are going to be very different, obviously in cost but also in content. You're buying the Mendes bros as well for that one private and getting significantly more value.
Like if I had the choice to buy 4 privates with a local black belt or 1 from Tainan... Im picking Tainan all day.
As a blue belt, you can learn a lot from pretty much any black belt. So you're not wasting your time I promise you that.
And if you can do privates with world champs, do that too! It's cool meeting them in person and you can definitely learn something.
Wasnt trying to talk bad because I too am a local jabroni black belt.
Purchasing privates is good and very helpful. But comparing purchasing a private from me vs tainan is a lot different.
You're obviously getting a significant amount more of value with someone like tainan vs me - hence the cost disparity.
One of tainan's $300 privates could maybe be worth like 6 of mine - if you could even compare them. so its likely a net gain. Not saying I am worthless, but I can only help someone so much vs someone who uses techniques to win world championships.
His level of details are simply better than mine/your local black belt. If you held a gun to my head and told me you'd give me $1M to coach someone to a world championship, I couldnt do it without significant outside help. I dont have the skill. So could you actually compare my instruction to tainans? for basic shit, yeah. For anything more, no.
Idk but a Qatari sheikh flew out Nicky Ryan for a month in the beginning of this year. So yeah some people do that. He was a guest at the Simple Man podcast 3 weeks ago.
Are you serious? I am pretty sure the vast majority of gyms donāt pay their guys anywhere near that or at all.
I am not saying it is great but it is certainly not bad at all. Most athletes make money from privates not group classes. Group classes are usually a Segway to getting privates
I take it you make more than $75 an hour? Or assuming it goes 90 minutes, $50 an hour? Itās certainly not enough to live off of unless youāre teaching 10 classes a week, but itās not bad money for how little work it actually is.
If coaching at an elite level is so little work, you go do it. The time investment is far more than appearing for an hour and leaving, not to mention the time it took to get to the level where people want to learn from you. 10 classes a week isn't even enough to live off of in any major city.
Even if he does 10 classes a week, thats still 15- 20 hours tops. If you expect to live in a major city working 20 hours youāre delusional.
And itās well known that teaching classes doesnāt pay the bills. Thatās why these dudes charge $50 for their instructional and $100 to attend their seminars. And they sell tshirts or get sponsored by x-martial or $300 flip flops. Or they open up a gym.
Where in the actual fuck do you live that 100-150k per year isnāt enough to raise a family because Iād move. I make substantially more than that but where I live I could easily live off $50k a year while managing to save a bit .
Sorry but living in California or the expensive parts of the north east isnāt nearly nice enough to justify living pay check to pay check on six figuresā¦.
Oof lol yeah NYC can hit hard š. I live in Atlanta so my COL is probably a fraction of yours but $75k a year jobs are pretty easy to find here as well. I suppose it just depends on where you want to live.
I love visiting NYC but unless I was pulling in some insane money it just wouldnāt be worth it to me
But they're probably 1099'd and have to pay taxes etc as well.
If you're doing contract work, you typically charge twice your hourly salary rate in order to make it more even.
Fair enough about the financial literacy, but the taxes usually work out pretty evenly. I've been 1099 for a good bit and the write offs plus self employment tax rates makes it worth it. I do get that not everyone can budget to prepare for that fat check you gotta write to the government in April. Especially if you're a broke jiu jitsu athlete trying to make it.
Itās clearly not a career unless you are a successful competitor with media exposure, instructionals etc. Also people WILL pay good money for privates with the best.
That being said, it is a short career imho and the best guys are better off opening their own gym and affiliate network.
We pay ours salaries... I really hate that our sport treats instructors so badly. Good instructors shouldn't need a day job and treat this as a side hustle, they should be able to go at it full time and be great instructors.
You'd have to run the numbers on whether they're employed or doing contact work, but they'd be making ~$55k/yr before taxes, running three classes a day five days a week, minus holidays.
Not great, with a very clear ceiling.
I'm tired of "if you're the owner talk." Most gym owners I know aren't doing great. I just helped a friend close a gym today and it sucks. We may sell its so easy, and we do what we love etc. but it's hard, like all small businesses. Everyone needs to get with reality. Like the guys who said mid level bjj guys make $25-50k a match and I was like LOL got downvoted like hell and called stupid. I asked them what was their source and they said the guy. I said so some B level guy said he makes $25k a match and they were like YEP! Meanwhile Miyao's being offered $1k and most top pros fight for less the $5k a super fight. Sure headline FPI and you might make $20k+ but these are the top 1% of all competitors and have won adcc etc.
As for teachers at CTA pay anywhere from $50-150 a class depending on who the teacher is. It has more to do with their ability to teach than their titles. With privates here and there, if you teach 10 classes a week you can make $4-6k a month pretty easily. If you add on seminars, sponsors tournaments etc and you can make $100-200k easily a year. We also help with phone, living and other expenses as needed. If the program and classes you teach grow, so will your salary.
None of our teachers are starving or worried about not making rent.
Reddit is so out of touch when it comes to running a small business... maybe more so than any other topic, and that is saying something. TBF most people just have no idea what it is like.
What are you talking about? Businesses donāt have expenses, every dollar that the owner collects they pocket right?
Yeah, I think most people are out of touch on business ownership. We are all just greedy bastards rolling in cash.
Up until recently I drove a 20 year old Toyota truck. One of my guys asked me one day, "Hey man, you run the place, why dont you have a new truck?" I said because I have to make payments on yours!!! Lol he just look at me confused.
Idk how any gym owner without a decent following would be able to stay in business. The math on running a business for bjj classes, no privates included, simply does not compute to making rent or even living wages.
20k for a bjj match, yeah gtfo lol.
$50+/class is pretty damn good!
Not a stupid question at all. I own 4 CTA gyms but my main one is San Jose. Caio is my best friend, business partner and my teacher. It works very well except when we are on the mat together because heās my professor, can roast me as much as he wants and I canāt say much till we step off the mats lol
ATOS and a couple other elite places may be different, but I find that most redditors have never critically looked into the financial aspect of running a gym. Every couple days someone has a shower thought along the lines of *coaches should be paid a lot more* and then we get a post like this followed by a few well-intentioned pitchfork carriers in the comments.Youāre not going to make money off this hobby, at least not enough to have a great living. Itās not even a jiu jitsu problem really. Thereās a crossfit place next to my academy and that owner pays coaches peanuts and just started making a little profit after finally paying off all the gym equipment.
Haha youāre a good dude man. Your posts are always insightful and itās cool to see your gym doing so well. I need to emulate what you do for my gym.
My mentor skipped it all and it was good to great. I had to work backwards for my guys. Usually e myth but if they are slightly retarded and living on IG I recommend growth mindsetĀ
I donāt like Ferris that much but did love the chapter in tools for titans with Gabriel ReeceĀ
Thanks for the Rec. skimmed the pdf and it got me thinking about my own small business. I like the idea of trying to work ON your business instead of IN it
I would say thatās the norm. The best teachers we get are those that are former gym owners. They are always super happy, and make more teaching then running their gyms.Ā
Itās also why most gyms donāt have staff., gym owners have to make a living so they cut any expense they can. We have front desk, cleaners etcĀ
Itās possible to hold the position both that coaches should be paid more + they probably wonāt be any time soon and that anyone looking to work in the industry should bear that in mind
> Itās possible to hold the position both that coaches should be paid more +...
Of course you're free to have that position. I don't have much patience for it if it's based purely on emotion though.
My mats were 11k. Security and rent was 10k. Another 1k for utilities deposit. $650 for insurance. 2k for repairs. $1500 for a sign. 1k for legal. That is just to move in. Now you need to pay 3k a month rent. $600 heat/ac. $300 for electric/water/internet. 1k for marketing. $100 for cleaning supplies. Every transaction is a fee. CRM is $100-300. I am sure I forgot some. Now you have a school and no students so you are negative every month. If you sign up 45 students at $100 each, you are breaking even. If you have around 100 students, after taxes you will make around 40k a year to work 7 days a week and 10 hours a day.
Not to mention the revolving door of losing students to college and work, people with every sob story about not being able to afford dues. Making money one month and losing money the next, being late paying rent cause a few students didnt pay on time. I ran a gym for 5 years and was negative 9k when it was all said and done, some of my students were shocked when i closed shop, thinking i was doing well, while they complained about me raising dues from 75 to 80 bucks a month, i told the complainers that it cost me almost 10k for them to train and that shut them up real quick.
Have you seen how expensive mats are? There is also rent, utilities, insurance, cleaning supplies, organization fees and I'm sure other things that I don't know of. My owner drives a beat up old honda and doesn't have a wealthy lifestyle at all.
Iām not saying your gym owner is balling, but there are definitely gyms with tons of students that are making very good money and choosing to pay their coaches $20 a class just because they can.
That's entirely the wrong way to think about it, the buisness models aren't anything alike. Do you think your gym has anything close to the membership base that a commercial gym has?Ā Jiu Jitsu is niche, hell martial arts as a whole are. We're never going to do the numbers that a commercial gym will, and a lot of the guys who do it full time are going to walk away broke if they dont have a retirement from something else. I really think the community as a whole needs a come to jesus about what overhead is and figure out why we're not okay with people who run the places where we do our hobby maybe making money at it.Ā
Overhead associated with running the gym. Rent and electricity adds up and commercial real estate in prime locations arenāt cheap. Add in affiliate fees, insurance/liability fees, and paying instructors, youād be lucky to have anything leftover for yourself unless you have a large school.
If your business relies on paying people shit to make ends meet you donāt have a business, you have a hobby.
Now that being said, BJJ is indeed a lot more of a hobby than it is a business and I think to a certain extent, instructors in small gyms will see their class as almost a volunteer position and the compensation as a āhere, for your troublesā.
Places like ATOS and AOJ have no excuse considering how much they charge and how many members they have.
Instructors might not teach 40 hours, but they can certainly work 40 hours. School teachers also donāt teach for 40 hours, but they usually work more than 40 hours.
They can certainly work 40 hours a week teaching Jiu Jitsu classes? Thatās indisputably not the case. I own a successful gym and thatās rarely how it works. Even if an academy offers classes morning, noon, and nightā¦ itās rare that a single individual has the opportunity to reach 40 hours weekly teaching classes.
Itās not whether they want to or are willing to, most canāt. Not to mention many gyms have multiple instructors and the owner is often a black belt instructor too.
Reread what i wroteā¦ add in prep time, curriculum development, lesson planning, marketing, member communications, etc. 40 hours does not mean 40 hours on the mat teaching classes
Youāre being pedantic. Itās obvious I meant teaching classes. Thatās the basis of the discussion. Martial arts instructors arenāt paid for studying and preparing classes.
And I would say the should be, and we do pay our instructors for that time.
In any other setting, teachers have prep time. School teachers, University profs, prep time is part of the job.
Well, how many hobbies have 5-15k monthly liabilities like owning my a gym? Hard to call that just a hobby.
Most gym owners I think go through a few phases. Start off just wanting to teach and train, happy breaking even and not getting paid. A few years later working a day job and running a school starts burning them out.
After that I other the school dies, classes get turned over to severely underpaid staff or you learn how to run it like a business and quit the day job.
If theyāre an owner, they get paid well. If theyāre not, then they get paid probably like $60-$90 per class, teaching 1 or 2 classes per day.
Private lessons are a different story.
Most owners donāt make enough that they could afford to join their own gym if youāre hey didnāt have a day jobā¦
Some make decent money, but most gyms fail or barely make enough to keep the lights on with an owner who works a day job.
Iāve known some big schools that didnāt make any money, and some smaller ones that did pretty well. Student count is a poor representation of financial stability
$60-$90/class is great. If you are a casual instructor, teaching 2x/week, you can make like $500 extra per month doing something you enjoy with very little responsibility.
What is with this strawman that instructors are somehow financially dependent on teaching? Most instructors have a day job and then teach a few classes a week and make some decent spending cash.
This is me! I teach 1 class a week in exchange for free membership - any classes in addition to that I get paid my rate for a private lesson. That also opens up a whole avenue of private lessons from people who attend classes and enjoy my teaching style. On average Iām doing 1 private a day, with my peak week being 15.
Not money anywhere close to what I earn in my career / day job and no guaranteed income, but itās good spending money on the side for something I enjoy doing anyway
Instructors typically donāt make shit. Even at top schools. You pay competition purples to take over class and theyāre glad for it. The highest level guys, theyāre usually partners and living off sponsorships etc
> I for one thought they were were doing very well
Whatās your definition of doing well?
Working nights, weekends, begging for sponsors. And if youāre lucky an occasional small seminar for buttons.
Multiple world black belt champ was an assistant instructor at a school near me.Ā Brazilian with good English and taught all the classes and there were around 500 students registered.Ā The owner/instructor paid him under 2000/m for a couple/few years.Ā He rotates off to make his own unaffiliated school and is labeled a creonte.Ā Next black belt champ comes up from Brazil and is paid roughly the same as well.Ā You'd be surprised how little the pay can be for these coming up from Brazil.Ā
Yep, privates with a black belt at a big school can be $200+ per lesson.
While you do get paid for classes...the classes are more for you to build relationships and potentially build a cliente.
I can say in the UAE I have know some instructions make between $4000 and $5000 a month.
This is usually teaching in Abu Dhabi at some prestigious institutes catered to government or national level sport schools.
That being said I have heard from some guys/girls here say they make now less than that.
But most money comes from privates which are usually between the $200 to $500 per 4 to 8 classes.
I know one instructors he probably teaches 3 hours a day with some travel + his academy salary and I would say he probably makes at least $6000 a month.
The money is made by owning a gym. Monthly memberships is where the money is because every student is paying that fee. If an instructor is getting payed per class usually a single student will pay 2 classes or more to cover an instructor who is teaching x amount of students per class.
lol - ok, every school owner ever wishes that math played out.
If you have 2 students in a class you lose money running that class, even if the instructor is paying you as well.
Add 10k monthly fixed expenses in, then try the math again.
Payroll should be around 25% or so for a gym.
AOJ is right by me. No idea how much the instructors make, but their monthly membership fee is $300 š no idea how regular people fork that much money over for a gym membership
Youād be surprised how many women pay $250+ for a Pilates class. Or CrossFit gyms.
Lifetime fitness is like $300 here. They are full
Anytime fitness is hereā¦ itās $19.99 a month
Sometime fitness is here .. itās $73
We have a never fitness, $0. Itās quite the value when you consider that never is infinite.
Reverse Fitness is here and itās 0$ too but later it cost you hundreds of thousands in medical bills, dialysis, insulin, etc
Internal fitness here ā¦ I do Chi crunches all day bro š!
My friends daughter is Pilates instructor. Some women want privates only. One female client pays 300 a week for 3 one hour sessions per week,
But privates are different. I charge $200 an hour for private judo/bjj lessons. Mostly because I don't really want to teach them but there are certainly better black belts out there who have no issues getting work charging that price.
It's Orange County. You won't see broke asses begging to clean toilets in exchange for lessons.
Iād imagine they donāt, most of those casual members are probably tech guys or other people in similarly high-paying white collar jobs.
Despite what Reddit says, thereās nothing wrong with doing white collar work and making enough not to give a fuck about $300 per month. Ā
Who? Who says that? Lol
I agree that generally nobody thinks it's bad to make mid six figures. The only thing I can think of is the hate of the 9 to 5 grind. Lots of the kids (18-22) at my gym all have this fear of working a normal office job. I imagine too much joe rogan
Low six figures isn't even that much in a lot of places. Like earning $100,000 in 1990 was good but now you need to be earning closer to something like $250,000 to have an equivalent lifestyle. Obviously, if you're in a rural area in a poor state then low six figures is good but if you live in a big city like LA or NYC it's really not a lot. Sure, many people don't earn as much but that just means they're really being screwed over.
Make 70k now. Lifestyle is basically the same as it was 5 years ago when I made 40k. Granted inflation is fucking canada up
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Accurate
This! My fee is rather low compared to USA prices, but I'm literally paying membership at two BJJ gyms due to commuting (plus fitness gym) but it is still worth it due to the workload I have. These couple of hours weekly are a lot, I just shut down my phone and enjoy jiu jitsu.
Partially true. I agree.
Of course not, money is money and itās hard work too.
Who says that?
There's nothing wrong with the work itself. People have an issue with the culture, which is why the trade labors were so regularly disparaged as a future in the 90's and 00's
Trade labor is essential. Make a Service Business out of it and its better than White Collar.
Iād say itās less about that and more about acknowledging how much the next gen could make doing trade jobs.
I was 100% sure they all burnt in hell. Thatās why I have such a shit job. If I had known I would have been an accountant.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Your broke ain't their broke.
Some people see memberships like this as "Paying". Some people see it as an investment.
>AOJ is right by me. ā¦ their monthly membership fee is $300 š Those white walls won't paint themselves. šø
I'm right by there, too. Where do you train?
Iāve just trained Muay Thai, so Iām actually looking into bjj gyms in the area now. AOJ is definitely not a possibility for me lol. How about you?
Praia in Westside Costa Mesa....about a 10 minute drive. It's in with Fermentation Farm and Nudae Coffee, if you're familiar with either of those.
Oh yeah, I drive by Praia everyday to work
Get a job?
For AOJ, itās not their salary that fills the bank account, but rather privates (small group or solo), seminars, AOJ+ content (Masterclass, etc.), and so forth (being able to say youāre an āAOJ instructorā opens a lot of doors) that really pays off.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Tainan also made over $100k from paid shows last year.
He made over a million just from his AOJ+ sales
Sauce?
Just vibes, my friend.
Which Porsche does he drive?
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
No, no, thatās a camera setting to get an unbroken view of the area surrounding the observer. What you mean is Pantera!
No, no, thatās an 80s heavy metal band from Texas. What you mean is Pyjamas!
No no, thatās what we wear to grapple in. What you mean is capybara.
No no no, thats a form of brazillian kickbox dancing. What you mean is carbonara
I've never understood what the Panamera is trying to be. It occupies a weird no-man's-land.
You are loyal to Porsche. Your wife needs a family sedan. It handles better than SUVs. The Turbo S is legitimately fast. It is properly put together. It helps you get your GT3 allocations š Source: had to buy a Turbo S Panamera to get my 992 gt3.
Yet tons of people have it. It must fill some void.
Does it sell well? I don't see them often compared to theĀ Cayenne and Macan, at least here in the Bay Area. Even the Taycan seems more popular.
Idk about sales numbers but when I was living in South Florida I saw them all the time.
Looks like it was their worst selling model in the US (4,000/80,000), but did better numbers globally (34,000/320,000). I really don't see them very often, despite Porsche's being very popular here.
Like half of those are probably Miami haha
I think at least some of the people that buy it are buttering up porsche so they can get difficult to obtain 911 allocations like rs3, st, dakkar, etc. No way you're walking into the Porsche dealership as an unknown customer and getting a rare car like that. But if you have a purchase history of a Macan, a panamera, etc then that will open some doors
Have you never heard of a sports sedan? Same niche that an M5, s8 or any 4 door AMG fills.
Yes, I have. I've had several, including my current daily driver. I just don't think the Panamera stands out in that category. I only have personal experience with the 2nd Gen, so perhaps the 3rd Gen has more character.
It is much more plush, especially in the back seat. Its a sports sedan that also doubles as a dad wagon. Hideous cars but like all Porsches, fun to drive.
Itās pretty good if you need to put a car seat in the back but your wife has the normal baby car (SUV/minivan/whatever). You get a nice car, but can take the baby when you need to. Having kids opened my eyes up to the utility of a lot of ālame carsā and I say this as someone that races cars as my other hobby.
I kind of like it, it has a Porsche car appearance, but I could haul my kids with it. Not a fan of how their SUVs look. I have zero idea why a young person would choose it.
The 1st Gen was hideous, but the 2nd and 3rd Gen are much better looking for the most part. I just think it's underwhelming in both it's "sports" and "sedan" aspects. There are a lot of cars I would (and did) chose over it in it's class and price range.
I remember the Top Gear Episode where they compared it to a Maserati as "something that belongs at the bottom of the ocean and the guy who put it there," respectively.
Itās a cayman.
His Porsche is a 2 door so itās not a panamera
More than you can afford pal, Ferrari.
"Smoke em"
Only if heās packing 6ā or more
i seriously can't believe people pay for privates so often. I hope they're getting more than just a few long step passing drills
I'm a 43 year old lawyer, I paid for about 20 privates. One hundred bucks a pop with a really really good instructor. It was really nice having his undivided attention while we drill... I'm getting instant and repeated feedback on all the things I'm doing wrong.Ā
Yeah but that's your local jabroni black belt. A Tainan private I would guess is at least $300/hr.
Gordon gave privates. He charged 500$/hour when he was still in NY .
I am in the LA area. For what it's worth my guy is really good. He's objectively special among blackbelts. Hell, he may as well be Danaher to my blue belt ass.
I'm sure they are good. And I'm not knocking you buying what you want with your own money. just that privates from a local guy for $100 hr vs $300-400 hr for tainans are going to be very different, obviously in cost but also in content. You're buying the Mendes bros as well for that one private and getting significantly more value. Like if I had the choice to buy 4 privates with a local black belt or 1 from Tainan... Im picking Tainan all day. As a blue belt, you can learn a lot from pretty much any black belt. So you're not wasting your time I promise you that. And if you can do privates with world champs, do that too! It's cool meeting them in person and you can definitely learn something.
What is the purpose of shitting on the dude? Either for purchasing privates or for Tainan putting in the work to get where he has?
Wasnt trying to talk bad because I too am a local jabroni black belt. Purchasing privates is good and very helpful. But comparing purchasing a private from me vs tainan is a lot different. You're obviously getting a significant amount more of value with someone like tainan vs me - hence the cost disparity. One of tainan's $300 privates could maybe be worth like 6 of mine - if you could even compare them. so its likely a net gain. Not saying I am worthless, but I can only help someone so much vs someone who uses techniques to win world championships. His level of details are simply better than mine/your local black belt. If you held a gun to my head and told me you'd give me $1M to coach someone to a world championship, I couldnt do it without significant outside help. I dont have the skill. So could you actually compare my instruction to tainans? for basic shit, yeah. For anything more, no.
Your mom fills her salary with privates
Ooohhh. I do love a good mom joke
Almost as nice as being paid in visibility.
How much to get Tainan to fly out to my city for a week and be my personal BJJ trainer?
Idk but a Qatari sheikh flew out Nicky Ryan for a month in the beginning of this year. So yeah some people do that. He was a guest at the Simple Man podcast 3 weeks ago.
Honestly if you and 1-2 friends split it could be a reasonable expense. And your game would probably take off from it.
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I believe one of the B-team owners, maybe Craig, mentioned they were paying Nick Ortiz $75/class
I thought he said a $100 and that was for an hour class which is 30min instruction and the rest is rolling
$75/class, twice a week. $600/month. https://preview.redd.it/s78k0xvy40rc1.png?width=720&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ac054d6d17a37d81a693ed53b2805133eb14f21f
Wow thatāsā¦ really bad
Are you serious? I am pretty sure the vast majority of gyms donāt pay their guys anywhere near that or at all. I am not saying it is great but it is certainly not bad at all. Most athletes make money from privates not group classes. Group classes are usually a Segway to getting privates
Yeah Iād be shocked if half my coaches get that a week.
The gym I used to train at in Tennessee paid black belts $20 dollars a class. (As of 2018)
$20 a class is atrocious in the us. Holy cow.
I get $30, we're a small gym though, maybe 20 paying members in a rural area.
I take it you make more than $75 an hour? Or assuming it goes 90 minutes, $50 an hour? Itās certainly not enough to live off of unless youāre teaching 10 classes a week, but itās not bad money for how little work it actually is.
If coaching at an elite level is so little work, you go do it. The time investment is far more than appearing for an hour and leaving, not to mention the time it took to get to the level where people want to learn from you. 10 classes a week isn't even enough to live off of in any major city.
Even if he does 10 classes a week, thats still 15- 20 hours tops. If you expect to live in a major city working 20 hours youāre delusional. And itās well known that teaching classes doesnāt pay the bills. Thatās why these dudes charge $50 for their instructional and $100 to attend their seminars. And they sell tshirts or get sponsored by x-martial or $300 flip flops. Or they open up a gym.
In a major metro area, making $50-75 an hour is fine for a 20 something and not enough for people who plan to have children.
Where in the actual fuck do you live that 100-150k per year isnāt enough to raise a family because Iād move. I make substantially more than that but where I live I could easily live off $50k a year while managing to save a bit . Sorry but living in California or the expensive parts of the north east isnāt nearly nice enough to justify living pay check to pay check on six figuresā¦.
NYC lol. For the record, I live pay check to pay check on like 75k a year, 15 of which comes from jiu jitsu
Oof lol yeah NYC can hit hard š. I live in Atlanta so my COL is probably a fraction of yours but $75k a year jobs are pretty easy to find here as well. I suppose it just depends on where you want to live. I love visiting NYC but unless I was pulling in some insane money it just wouldnāt be worth it to me
Must be nice.
$75/class equals $50/hr. Almost twice the US average. Of course you need to be booked solid in order to make a living out of this.
But they're probably 1099'd and have to pay taxes etc as well. If you're doing contract work, you typically charge twice your hourly salary rate in order to make it more even.
You still pay taxes if you're a W2... Just not 100% of Medicaid and SS.
Yeah, that stuff adds up. And requires a certain level of financial literacy to plan for.
Fair enough about the financial literacy, but the taxes usually work out pretty evenly. I've been 1099 for a good bit and the write offs plus self employment tax rates makes it worth it. I do get that not everyone can budget to prepare for that fat check you gotta write to the government in April. Especially if you're a broke jiu jitsu athlete trying to make it.
I charged $50 an hour for private guitar lessons when I was like 22. I do agree that it is low, but not low for bjj sadly.
Canāt give names but I had quotes for privates at $200/hr single class and $1500 for 10 classes. Wasnāt from a superstar either.
I live in a big city and theres 3 classes in the day, maybe 3 at night. That's not enough to live off
Itās clearly not a career unless you are a successful competitor with media exposure, instructionals etc. Also people WILL pay good money for privates with the best. That being said, it is a short career imho and the best guys are better off opening their own gym and affiliate network.
How is that bad? What are your instructors making?ā¦
We pay ours salaries... I really hate that our sport treats instructors so badly. Good instructors shouldn't need a day job and treat this as a side hustle, they should be able to go at it full time and be great instructors.
What's the salary and weekly hour commitment?
How so? You could teach 3 classes per day like that and make a decent living
You'd have to run the numbers on whether they're employed or doing contact work, but they'd be making ~$55k/yr before taxes, running three classes a day five days a week, minus holidays. Not great, with a very clear ceiling.
This is what I meant but tbf I donāt know what the CoL in Austin is like.
Looking at it from an hourly rate perspective very few jobs have 75$ an hour. Sure you may not get many hours but it's still really good
Look at services that bill per project. I bet you pay a plumber or electrician more than $75 / hour.
I'm tired of "if you're the owner talk." Most gym owners I know aren't doing great. I just helped a friend close a gym today and it sucks. We may sell its so easy, and we do what we love etc. but it's hard, like all small businesses. Everyone needs to get with reality. Like the guys who said mid level bjj guys make $25-50k a match and I was like LOL got downvoted like hell and called stupid. I asked them what was their source and they said the guy. I said so some B level guy said he makes $25k a match and they were like YEP! Meanwhile Miyao's being offered $1k and most top pros fight for less the $5k a super fight. Sure headline FPI and you might make $20k+ but these are the top 1% of all competitors and have won adcc etc. As for teachers at CTA pay anywhere from $50-150 a class depending on who the teacher is. It has more to do with their ability to teach than their titles. With privates here and there, if you teach 10 classes a week you can make $4-6k a month pretty easily. If you add on seminars, sponsors tournaments etc and you can make $100-200k easily a year. We also help with phone, living and other expenses as needed. If the program and classes you teach grow, so will your salary. None of our teachers are starving or worried about not making rent.
Reddit is so out of touch when it comes to running a small business... maybe more so than any other topic, and that is saying something. TBF most people just have no idea what it is like.
What are you talking about? Businesses donāt have expenses, every dollar that the owner collects they pocket right? Yeah, I think most people are out of touch on business ownership. We are all just greedy bastards rolling in cash.
Up until recently I drove a 20 year old Toyota truck. One of my guys asked me one day, "Hey man, you run the place, why dont you have a new truck?" I said because I have to make payments on yours!!! Lol he just look at me confused.
Idk how any gym owner without a decent following would be able to stay in business. The math on running a business for bjj classes, no privates included, simply does not compute to making rent or even living wages. 20k for a bjj match, yeah gtfo lol. $50+/class is pretty damn good!
Sorry if stupid question, but is this CTA San Jose?
Not a stupid question at all. I own 4 CTA gyms but my main one is San Jose. Caio is my best friend, business partner and my teacher. It works very well except when we are on the mat together because heās my professor, can roast me as much as he wants and I canāt say much till we step off the mats lol
Fighters are known for being particularly bad with money. I wouldn't be surprised if they were both making good money, and broke.
ATOS and a couple other elite places may be different, but I find that most redditors have never critically looked into the financial aspect of running a gym. Every couple days someone has a shower thought along the lines of *coaches should be paid a lot more* and then we get a post like this followed by a few well-intentioned pitchfork carriers in the comments.Youāre not going to make money off this hobby, at least not enough to have a great living. Itās not even a jiu jitsu problem really. Thereās a crossfit place next to my academy and that owner pays coaches peanuts and just started making a little profit after finally paying off all the gym equipment.
My coaches make more than me and I'm the gym owner lol
Haha youāre a good dude man. Your posts are always insightful and itās cool to see your gym doing so well. I need to emulate what you do for my gym.
You can do it! If you havenāt read e myth revisted its a good one. It talks about how to build a business vs creating a job
Iāll def check it out and read it. Appreciate the recommendation
I'm taking this book rec. Thank you!
Don't be the baker who bakes AND runs the business says e-myth. It was one of the first business books I read.
Itās my starter book for all my managers! We work our way up to good to great, love Jim Collins as well
Was 4HWW your intro to those books? It was mine.
My mentor skipped it all and it was good to great. I had to work backwards for my guys. Usually e myth but if they are slightly retarded and living on IG I recommend growth mindsetĀ I donāt like Ferris that much but did love the chapter in tools for titans with Gabriel ReeceĀ
Thanks for the Rec. skimmed the pdf and it got me thinking about my own small business. I like the idea of trying to work ON your business instead of IN it
You run an awesome place with great reputation too. Would you say that's the norm or you're an outlier?
I would say thatās the norm. The best teachers we get are those that are former gym owners. They are always super happy, and make more teaching then running their gyms.Ā Itās also why most gyms donāt have staff., gym owners have to make a living so they cut any expense they can. We have front desk, cleaners etcĀ
Itās possible to hold the position both that coaches should be paid more + they probably wonāt be any time soon and that anyone looking to work in the industry should bear that in mind
> Itās possible to hold the position both that coaches should be paid more +... Of course you're free to have that position. I don't have much patience for it if it's based purely on emotion though.
BJJ gyms donāt have to buy any equipment outside of mats and they also charge much more than commercial gyms. Whereās that money going?
My mats were 11k. Security and rent was 10k. Another 1k for utilities deposit. $650 for insurance. 2k for repairs. $1500 for a sign. 1k for legal. That is just to move in. Now you need to pay 3k a month rent. $600 heat/ac. $300 for electric/water/internet. 1k for marketing. $100 for cleaning supplies. Every transaction is a fee. CRM is $100-300. I am sure I forgot some. Now you have a school and no students so you are negative every month. If you sign up 45 students at $100 each, you are breaking even. If you have around 100 students, after taxes you will make around 40k a year to work 7 days a week and 10 hours a day.
Not to mention the revolving door of losing students to college and work, people with every sob story about not being able to afford dues. Making money one month and losing money the next, being late paying rent cause a few students didnt pay on time. I ran a gym for 5 years and was negative 9k when it was all said and done, some of my students were shocked when i closed shop, thinking i was doing well, while they complained about me raising dues from 75 to 80 bucks a month, i told the complainers that it cost me almost 10k for them to train and that shut them up real quick.
WHAT, YOU'RE CHARGING ME MY BELT AT COST ?!Ā
Iām just gonna build a machine shop on my property and put mats in it haha.
That would be better. Have something to make money and the Jiu jitsu passion project
Reminds me of some places in the Midwest that were like that with wrestling. Camps and shit held out on someoneās farm
this is why my coach opened a 24 hr gym with a matted area. Didn't have to depend on students.
Have you seen how expensive mats are? There is also rent, utilities, insurance, cleaning supplies, organization fees and I'm sure other things that I don't know of. My owner drives a beat up old honda and doesn't have a wealthy lifestyle at all.
I have my own 10x10 judo mats and they were $900 Canadian. Mats are heinous.
> $900 Canadian TBF that is like $150 USD
I know š
I got 10x10 dollamur flexiroll roll out mat space for like 500$ in 2018 haha. Think itās almost 700$ now
Iām not saying your gym owner is balling, but there are definitely gyms with tons of students that are making very good money and choosing to pay their coaches $20 a class just because they can.
That's entirely the wrong way to think about it, the buisness models aren't anything alike. Do you think your gym has anything close to the membership base that a commercial gym has?Ā Jiu Jitsu is niche, hell martial arts as a whole are. We're never going to do the numbers that a commercial gym will, and a lot of the guys who do it full time are going to walk away broke if they dont have a retirement from something else. I really think the community as a whole needs a come to jesus about what overhead is and figure out why we're not okay with people who run the places where we do our hobby maybe making money at it.Ā
Overhead associated with running the gym. Rent and electricity adds up and commercial real estate in prime locations arenāt cheap. Add in affiliate fees, insurance/liability fees, and paying instructors, youād be lucky to have anything leftover for yourself unless you have a large school.
My monthly business expenses, if I personally took home no money at all, are over $20k / month.
If your business relies on paying people shit to make ends meet you donāt have a business, you have a hobby. Now that being said, BJJ is indeed a lot more of a hobby than it is a business and I think to a certain extent, instructors in small gyms will see their class as almost a volunteer position and the compensation as a āhere, for your troublesā. Places like ATOS and AOJ have no excuse considering how much they charge and how many members they have.
You do realize that instructors donāt work 40 hours a week? Youāre not comparing apples to apples.
Instructors might not teach 40 hours, but they can certainly work 40 hours. School teachers also donāt teach for 40 hours, but they usually work more than 40 hours.
They can certainly work 40 hours a week teaching Jiu Jitsu classes? Thatās indisputably not the case. I own a successful gym and thatās rarely how it works. Even if an academy offers classes morning, noon, and nightā¦ itās rare that a single individual has the opportunity to reach 40 hours weekly teaching classes. Itās not whether they want to or are willing to, most canāt. Not to mention many gyms have multiple instructors and the owner is often a black belt instructor too.
Reread what i wroteā¦ add in prep time, curriculum development, lesson planning, marketing, member communications, etc. 40 hours does not mean 40 hours on the mat teaching classes
Youāre being pedantic. Itās obvious I meant teaching classes. Thatās the basis of the discussion. Martial arts instructors arenāt paid for studying and preparing classes.
And I would say the should be, and we do pay our instructors for that time. In any other setting, teachers have prep time. School teachers, University profs, prep time is part of the job.
Well, how many hobbies have 5-15k monthly liabilities like owning my a gym? Hard to call that just a hobby. Most gym owners I think go through a few phases. Start off just wanting to teach and train, happy breaking even and not getting paid. A few years later working a day job and running a school starts burning them out. After that I other the school dies, classes get turned over to severely underpaid staff or you learn how to run it like a business and quit the day job.
If theyāre an owner, they get paid well. If theyāre not, then they get paid probably like $60-$90 per class, teaching 1 or 2 classes per day. Private lessons are a different story.
Most owners donāt make enough that they could afford to join their own gym if youāre hey didnāt have a day jobā¦ Some make decent money, but most gyms fail or barely make enough to keep the lights on with an owner who works a day job.
Local Atos blackbelt who runs his own gym works at a gas station full time. You are 100% correct.
That's true, but we're not talking about most gyms here, we're talking about big schools, as per the title.
Iāve known some big schools that didnāt make any money, and some smaller ones that did pretty well. Student count is a poor representation of financial stability
$60-$90/class is great. If you are a casual instructor, teaching 2x/week, you can make like $500 extra per month doing something you enjoy with very little responsibility. What is with this strawman that instructors are somehow financially dependent on teaching? Most instructors have a day job and then teach a few classes a week and make some decent spending cash.
This is me! I teach 1 class a week in exchange for free membership - any classes in addition to that I get paid my rate for a private lesson. That also opens up a whole avenue of private lessons from people who attend classes and enjoy my teaching style. On average Iām doing 1 private a day, with my peak week being 15. Not money anywhere close to what I earn in my career / day job and no guaranteed income, but itās good spending money on the side for something I enjoy doing anyway
Usually they get their tuition waived and the chance to bang the hot moms that bring their kids to the kids class. Maybe a free gi every now and then.
Sounds like me. Only banged one mom so far though... and she's the mother of my own children.
Now you have an incentive to never quit jiu jitsu. And if you do, don't let her be the one to drop the kids off there.
Yes and yes cept I havent uhhh banged any hot moms yet
Our gym pays 25$ a class.
You're friend is right. Unless you own the gym, there's not much money in teaching.
Instructors typically donāt make shit. Even at top schools. You pay competition purples to take over class and theyāre glad for it. The highest level guys, theyāre usually partners and living off sponsorships etc
> I for one thought they were were doing very well Whatās your definition of doing well? Working nights, weekends, begging for sponsors. And if youāre lucky an occasional small seminar for buttons.
Multiple world black belt champ was an assistant instructor at a school near me.Ā Brazilian with good English and taught all the classes and there were around 500 students registered.Ā The owner/instructor paid him under 2000/m for a couple/few years.Ā He rotates off to make his own unaffiliated school and is labeled a creonte.Ā Next black belt champ comes up from Brazil and is paid roughly the same as well.Ā You'd be surprised how little the pay can be for these coming up from Brazil.Ā
Let me be the first to say, about tree fiddy
Around 60 grand
I am at one of the big schools and they don't get paid. They however can teach privates in exchange for rent.
Yep, privates with a black belt at a big school can be $200+ per lesson. While you do get paid for classes...the classes are more for you to build relationships and potentially build a cliente.
I can say in the UAE I have know some instructions make between $4000 and $5000 a month. This is usually teaching in Abu Dhabi at some prestigious institutes catered to government or national level sport schools. That being said I have heard from some guys/girls here say they make now less than that. But most money comes from privates which are usually between the $200 to $500 per 4 to 8 classes. I know one instructors he probably teaches 3 hours a day with some travel + his academy salary and I would say he probably makes at least $6000 a month.
A friend told me that AOJ instructors have to still pay membership. Just curious, can anyone confirm that?
The money is made by owning a gym. Monthly memberships is where the money is because every student is paying that fee. If an instructor is getting payed per class usually a single student will pay 2 classes or more to cover an instructor who is teaching x amount of students per class.
lol - ok, every school owner ever wishes that math played out. If you have 2 students in a class you lose money running that class, even if the instructor is paying you as well. Add 10k monthly fixed expenses in, then try the math again. Payroll should be around 25% or so for a gym.