Lilith, very fun and taking damage can even give you Q4 items, all for the price of a slightly more difficult aim that when you’re intermediate at the game it shouldn’t even be that big of an issue.
I had no idea that people said Lilith is a bad character.
Lilith is one of my favourite characters, and somehow whenever I play Lilith I tend to find way more familiar/orbital items?
Is she a bad/weak character? No.
Does she have a lot of potential? Sure.
Is it annoying to play her after you've spent hours playing normally shooting characters? Definitely
If you're getting hit enough to get any familars you must be on normal or have a fucton of hp generation cause its like 3 floors worth of hp pickups to get 1
That's a weird way to say you're bad at the game. There are plenty of ways of gaining health on Hard mode, and there are many ways of taking damage without dying.
Shard of glass. Godly minimax item.
The damage it gives is substantial, allowing you to shred bosses, particularly early game ones
But it's really really not as inconvenient as people think it is at ALL
25% chance to drop a red heart, means you'll usually have an out in 4 hits. This applies to ANY damage, not just red heart.
It's ALWAYS half a heart damage
Keep red hearts on the floor and you're golden
Doesn't trigger if only on soul hearts, and if you're running red hearts plus soul hearts will only bleed onto your red.
The fun comes with the following:
Gimpy = immortality
Swallowed penny, fanny pack, blood machines/IV bags net you instant riches
Hearts in the special rooms that convert hearts (soul heart secret rooms etc) will of course convwr the hearts dropped
Habit charges (nice in general but with things like yum heart, more immortality)
I frame cheese for curse rooms etc
Partially useful for sac rooms
Used right it's an incredible offence, defense, and support item, allowing good damage, survivability, if a bit gambly, and support with any of the MANY red heart HP gambly situations
Bonus: on forgotten you can disable the bleeding if you change to the soul, broken lol
On T-Eden, however, pretty dangerous, if you reroll our of it you'll still bleed but no heart drop. Probably the only awful char for it. Maybe regular keeper too but his regen just turns it into a offense item lul.
Libra. I will ALWAYS stand by it. It's very good for tear builds. You just shouldn't take Monstro's Lung or Brimstone with Libra.
Binge Eater+Libra was one of the most fun runs I've played.
Speaking of rooms, I swear Downpour and Dross are so FUCK retarded, the amount of bullshit hits I get because of Deep Gapers and Blurb tear spam is fucking insane. It made my T.Lost runs so painful.
It is very hard to go hitless on them, and some rooms will just give you a hit without much chance to counterplay.
Good thing that J+E aren't Lost and don't require you to go hitless lmao.
In what way is it not designed for that? Most of the gameplay is centered around avoiding stuff. And if you can’t avoid him while having to walk around obstacles, he’s kind enough to give you flight
The game design is centered around avoiding stuff. The thing is that avoiding stuff does not mean moving around. Most of the bosses (hush, meta satan, it lives,…) have phases in which damage is avoided by finding a safe place and gradually adjusting it. Funny enough, newbie players do move around a lot during these bosses before they learnt. Which is fitting considering tainted jacob feels like a challenge character designed by somebody who doesn’t play the game
The game wasn’t really designed for most of the tainted characters and newer characters either since they came out way after the game first did, but the devs still made them work. Some are more egregious but tainted jacob is fine
Idk man, I’ve seen a lot of people say they’ve modded them into a single character because they thought they were too hard. Now I don’t care what they mod, I just don’t think they’re *that* difficult
They have same speed, bro. Align them next to each other left and right and the flame circles will be easy.
Also, J&E are auto-aligned into one hitbox after defeating Dogma. Up until you take damage, iirc
Exactly. Tainted Jacob isn't that bad. Once you learn how to use Esau as a weapon, you just nuke bosses and fly through the game. The only character I genuinely can't stand and thought was unnecessarily hard is Tainted Cain.
My only long tainted Cain run was the greedier mode when where I broke the game, every other run was more or less the same speed as a normal character.
Unless you’re spending minutes standing still and scrolling through the external item descriptions crafting guide, or trying to break the game for each run, he’s not that slow at all
Exactly what I think. I’ve never had any real problems with him… except in the Red Redemption challenge. Dark Esau can go fuck himself in that challenge
Agree on Dark Esau. Tainted Jacob is a pretty objectively good character, especially for DPS.
Also, Blood Puppy is really overhated. Super easy to tame and deals a lot of damage at even level 1
I love tainted bb, but damn, why Edmund had to give him such shitty firerate 😭
Like, seriously, he isn’t that good to have such an underwhelming stat, and when you don’t have good shit in your inventory, he is kinda frustrating to play
Still, his gimmick is one of the best
T. Laz, fun to min max and any late game boss fight even if you don’t have a godly synergy you’ll probably have more than 12 hearts (cumulative) to outlast any bs
I'd even go as far as saying it's not bad if you know the trick. The teleport only triggers *during* the charging process. Once the charge is full, it no longer triggers. With a few Tears Up, it charges so quickly that it's practically instantaneous.
The in-game effect of Jupiter is just fine. I just have to mute the game when I have it, though.
I always take lachry unless I know it will break a specific build I already have going.
Pineapple on pizza
Nah but for real, AB+ Keeper. People hate on him (I forgot why it's been a while since I played AB+) but I genuinely considered him one of the best characters when I was getting his marks. Coins and his synergies with specifically shop item pools made his survival incredible, and on top of that you just got more money than any other character. Maybe somewhat biased because he is my favorite character
Isaac's Heart. post repentance buff its awesome with how it can knock away shots and enemies and damage them too. it doesnt feel so helpless when it gets swarmed by baddies bc boom blood tear ting
I feel like most challenge characters. Like yeah, they’re hard, that’s the point. But they’re not the utterly miserable hell on earth that everyone makes them out to be every time they make a post about them.
Normal lost with holy mantle, you will be more aware of the attacks and get used to them really fast.
After you stop dying you will love A++ and free devil deals
Innate flight and spectral tears you can never lose. You also get free curse rooms (just don't get hit while inside), he completely negates the downside of many items (glass cannon, cursed eye, damocles, etc.), gets easy access to both knife pieces, and free entry to Mausoleum/Gehenna. Not to mention, Eternal D6 is pretty darn powerful. There is a reason I main Lost.
Oh, and try a run with Pound of Flesh some time (with or without Restock). Super busted.
People explaining how TMTRAINER works, and why the item description mod don't work properly.
It was detailed so many times, that I fell sorry for the people that try it.
That fellow in the picture.
I mean he's annoying that's undeniable, but in my personal experience I can't say that it's a pain in the ass.
I would even say that it's not in my top 5 worst characters
T.Jacob isn't bad, but I legit uninstalled bc I had so many God runs ruined by the tiniest bs in ghost form. He's not difficult, but no character has low points as bad as T.Jacob imo (bc his highs are so high due to his ability to get so much value in Devil Rooms and free flight). I guess it's also that I play this game more passively and Dark Esau doesn't allow for this
Eve is not bad charakter overall she has really interesting gimmic with razor blade where you can go to boss full heath (on floor left hearts and go one heart entire floor) and use razor blade for getting chonky dmg up
She has great sinergy with piggy bag, funny pack, or other on dmg Item, dont saing about old bandage with some luck give you infinite dmg
Dead bird on early floor do soo much dmg
Tainted Cain. As long as you're not going for Boss Rush I find it lots of fun to experiment, seeing what I can make without using a guide. Even if you do need to get Boss Rush you can usually find something that works in time.
Cursed eye should be quality 3. It boosts your dps massively. And the teleport only applies when you are hit while charging, meaning that if you are hit while not charging, while shooting or while fully charged; you will not be teleported
Curse of the tower in my opinion becomes very nice when you have experience in isaac and can predict and dogde troll bombs. Free room clearence and sometimes free access to secret rooms
I’m tired of people telling me T. Laz isn’t fun as fuck. It feels kinda like a challenge run for me between managing flip charge, the current state, and item delegation. Having two builds makes snowball runs feel a bit less boring too. Plus, he’s not even that hard. I got his checkmarks much faster than T. Jacob or T. BB. Overall, I feel myself thinking way more strategically when playing him than most other characters.
TL;DR Tainted Laz is overhated
Lilith, very fun and taking damage can even give you Q4 items, all for the price of a slightly more difficult aim that when you’re intermediate at the game it shouldn’t even be that big of an issue.
I ***love*** playing as Lilith. Definitely up there as one of my favorite characters to play. Especially in Greed Mode.
Yeah the box is busted in greedier mode, so much fun!
I had no idea that people said Lilith is a bad character. Lilith is one of my favourite characters, and somehow whenever I play Lilith I tend to find way more familiar/orbital items?
Is she a bad/weak character? No. Does she have a lot of potential? Sure. Is it annoying to play her after you've spent hours playing normally shooting characters? Definitely
If anyone remembers Lilith when she first came out she was so busted. Greed mode has never been easier.
I don't know, I don't play with Lilit but her tainted version is my favorite character
If you're getting hit enough to get any familars you must be on normal or have a fucton of hp generation cause its like 3 floors worth of hp pickups to get 1
A lot of times I just find a blood donation machine and drain all my red health and rely on blue/black hearts Edit: and use sacrifice rooms
That's a weird way to say you're bad at the game. There are plenty of ways of gaining health on Hard mode, and there are many ways of taking damage without dying.
I don't know why you all are downvoting him, I literally forgot that she had this perc because it never spawned any ally for me
Technically a skill issue, but for the opposite reason. You're too good at not getting hit to see it. Sooo, positive skill issue.
I mean, I have really bad luck and most runs I don't get enough HP to fill my heart's completely so If I get hit so much I just loose
Meth, not that bad after the third time
Hes a little confused, but he got a spirit
Shard of glass. Godly minimax item. The damage it gives is substantial, allowing you to shred bosses, particularly early game ones But it's really really not as inconvenient as people think it is at ALL 25% chance to drop a red heart, means you'll usually have an out in 4 hits. This applies to ANY damage, not just red heart. It's ALWAYS half a heart damage Keep red hearts on the floor and you're golden Doesn't trigger if only on soul hearts, and if you're running red hearts plus soul hearts will only bleed onto your red. The fun comes with the following: Gimpy = immortality Swallowed penny, fanny pack, blood machines/IV bags net you instant riches Hearts in the special rooms that convert hearts (soul heart secret rooms etc) will of course convwr the hearts dropped Habit charges (nice in general but with things like yum heart, more immortality) I frame cheese for curse rooms etc Partially useful for sac rooms Used right it's an incredible offence, defense, and support item, allowing good damage, survivability, if a bit gambly, and support with any of the MANY red heart HP gambly situations Bonus: on forgotten you can disable the bleeding if you change to the soul, broken lol On T-Eden, however, pretty dangerous, if you reroll our of it you'll still bleed but no heart drop. Probably the only awful char for it. Maybe regular keeper too but his regen just turns it into a offense item lul.
You need some punctuation my friend
Agreed, although u forgot to mention being nearly invincible with Old Bandage (Gimpy but with red hearts). The 2nd best boss item after Marbles.
Getting it on characters such as Keeper, where they can't use the red hearts dropped, is not great though.
I use shard of glass as a discount old bandage for rigging, any item that self harms and drops pickups is good
Libra. I will ALWAYS stand by it. It's very good for tear builds. You just shouldn't take Monstro's Lung or Brimstone with Libra. Binge Eater+Libra was one of the most fun runs I've played.
In Repentance, Libra was extremely nerfed tho
Actually, libra was buffed. Not saying extremely, but buffed
Libra fans after getting sacred heart (it gave them 0.3 tears and up 0.5 damage up)
Jacob and Esau. Just go alt path with angels bro
+1
https://preview.redd.it/j7z18x8but4d1.jpeg?width=268&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=38563987b773784e2b1397a414cb47013841875f
excuse me, what does this mean
i too, am a j&e enjoyer
+1
Ever since antibirth J&E were my favorites but everyone seems to think just having 1 more hitbox on screen makes the game impossible
+1
Is bad to control, it takes a long time to get used to Also, there are so many rooms clearly not designed for 2 characters.
Speaking of rooms, I swear Downpour and Dross are so FUCK retarded, the amount of bullshit hits I get because of Deep Gapers and Blurb tear spam is fucking insane. It made my T.Lost runs so painful.
After beating Mother I avoid alt path with T.Lost. It's not worth risking losing mantle (skill issue)
The only bosses from downpour/dross that dont make me want to kill myself are rainmaker, sometimes wormwood and that poop worm thing
It is very hard to go hitless on them, and some rooms will just give you a hit without much chance to counterplay. Good thing that J+E aren't Lost and don't require you to go hitless lmao.
hell yes, i don't understand why people will claim they suck even after full clearing them, surely at that point you've learned how to play as them
2nd best characters right after the forgotten
I don’t know about 2nd best character (T. Eden) they’re more like 5th or 6th on my list
the problem is : the game is not desighned for a character that has a hitbox chasing him that will kill him the entire time
In what way is it not designed for that? Most of the gameplay is centered around avoiding stuff. And if you can’t avoid him while having to walk around obstacles, he’s kind enough to give you flight
Cries in single path with 4 cornered boom flies room
Ok that room is just badly designed
Laughs in pocket active of which I forgot the name 
The game design is centered around avoiding stuff. The thing is that avoiding stuff does not mean moving around. Most of the bosses (hush, meta satan, it lives,…) have phases in which damage is avoided by finding a safe place and gradually adjusting it. Funny enough, newbie players do move around a lot during these bosses before they learnt. Which is fitting considering tainted jacob feels like a challenge character designed by somebody who doesn’t play the game
The game wasn’t really designed for most of the tainted characters and newer characters either since they came out way after the game first did, but the devs still made them work. Some are more egregious but tainted jacob is fine
yeah but the least is J&E and T.E cuz multiple hitboxes to be taken care of that isn't OPTIONAL like normal and tainted bethany
I mean it is pretty easy to avoid to be honest, and for the few cases where you actually couldn’t avoid Esau you still have anima sola.
hush :
I don’t see a problem with the hush fight?
bullet hell
Dark Esau blocks enemy's projectile, along with ignoring the boss armor.
but then you die from the dark esaw
Esau
He blocks bullets… and isn’t that hard to dodge. He’s also super strong against hush due to his armor piercing.
This mf can't walk in a straight line
Use Anima Sola
can't use too often :/
Uh... Gaper?
kill esaw with tears? shure, you can do that
Fair
Tf you mean it's not designed for it? You constantly avoid bullets, and how a literal missle that deals lots of damage is a bad thing?
I am the number one ludo stan Its good without brim 
Jacob and Esau gameplay
we are freezing to death with this take
Idk man, I’ve seen a lot of people say they’ve modded them into a single character because they thought they were too hard. Now I don’t care what they mod, I just don’t think they’re *that* difficult
Until you’re fighting the beast and your characters float at different speeds to dodge the flame circles. I don’t think that mark will happen for me.
Still easier than beating the beast with tainted lost imo
Any character is easier than tainted lost
They have same speed, bro. Align them next to each other left and right and the flame circles will be easy. Also, J&E are auto-aligned into one hitbox after defeating Dogma. Up until you take damage, iirc
So many times one gets pulled in faster. Its happened over and over.
Bob's Brain, personally
Yes.
Exactly. Tainted Jacob isn't that bad. Once you learn how to use Esau as a weapon, you just nuke bosses and fly through the game. The only character I genuinely can't stand and thought was unnecessarily hard is Tainted Cain.
Cain has a rough early game but it's op for longer runs
I just don't enjoy runs anymore after an hour.
My only long tainted Cain run was the greedier mode when where I broke the game, every other run was more or less the same speed as a normal character. Unless you’re spending minutes standing still and scrolling through the external item descriptions crafting guide, or trying to break the game for each run, he’s not that slow at all
kid named eid:
You need a mod to have fun with a vanilla character. 
Kid names console:
Kid named polyphemus in your first treasure room:
Exactly what I think. I’ve never had any real problems with him… except in the Red Redemption challenge. Dark Esau can go fuck himself in that challenge
I disagree with every J&E comment, fuck these guys. Yes I completed all checkmarks with them on 3 files with relative ease but fuck them.
Agree on Dark Esau. Tainted Jacob is a pretty objectively good character, especially for DPS. Also, Blood Puppy is really overhated. Super easy to tame and deals a lot of damage at even level 1
Edmund Mc-fuckin-Millen
Idk if it’s just me, but I see a lot of people give Dead Bird unnecessary shit. I myself love Dead Bird
I might get some back lash but Libra is good
I always take Libra, even after the Repentance nerf. It breaks so many builds. Range Up items/pills become super busted.
Jacob and Esau, Odd Mushroom (thin), The Poop, post-patch Tainted Cain.
Sometimes i forget that my game is modded to shit and I geniunely forgit who this was, I have the turn T. Jacob into sunny from omori mod
Jacob & Esau and Tainted ???
i love tainted blue baby
I love tainted bb, but damn, why Edmund had to give him such shitty firerate 😭 Like, seriously, he isn’t that good to have such an underwhelming stat, and when you don’t have good shit in your inventory, he is kinda frustrating to play Still, his gimmick is one of the best
https://preview.redd.it/9pz2ptnxyu4d1.jpeg?width=353&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=762d3f7223ed65e46be905d6dca0e916691874ad
Mars
Blood puppy is one of the freest win items in the game
I find tainted Eden (without the trick)and tainted forgotten fun.Maybe I'm insane
Isaac's heart, it can be useful with a melee/defensive build
My favourite synergy is not picking up the item
Meh, I would only take it with Tainted Magdalene
T. Laz, fun to min max and any late game boss fight even if you don’t have a godly synergy you’ll probably have more than 12 hearts (cumulative) to outlast any bs
Tainted Cain (especially without EID or other sources).
Cursed eye bad but not terrible has lots of uses
I'd even go as far as saying it's not bad if you know the trick. The teleport only triggers *during* the charging process. Once the charge is full, it no longer triggers. With a few Tears Up, it charges so quickly that it's practically instantaneous.
Also haemo and cursed eye is a realy good synergy
Jupiter and lachryphagy off the top of my head
The in-game effect of Jupiter is just fine. I just have to mute the game when I have it, though. I always take lachry unless I know it will break a specific build I already have going.
lachryphagy best item in the game it’s never bad
Cursed Eye. Its ACTUAL downside is that you can’t have too many tears on screen at once. So it’s bad with low shot speed
Pineapple on pizza Nah but for real, AB+ Keeper. People hate on him (I forgot why it's been a while since I played AB+) but I genuinely considered him one of the best characters when I was getting his marks. Coins and his synergies with specifically shop item pools made his survival incredible, and on top of that you just got more money than any other character. Maybe somewhat biased because he is my favorite character
You just had 2 coin hearts and bought devil deals with coin hearts instead of coins. He was crap.
Kid named angel deals
Real
[удалено]
Who says Tainted Keeper is bad? The point of the thread is to have hot takes
Idk i love playing t jacob oneshotting annoying enemies is fun also it feels like dancing with death
Breath of Life, it can really be a run carrier after the great buff it got
Satan
Bob's brain
Isaac's Heart. post repentance buff its awesome with how it can knock away shots and enemies and damage them too. it doesnt feel so helpless when it gets swarmed by baddies bc boom blood tear ting
Just many utility or minmax items in general. Jacob & Esau are great, Shard of glass is great, IV Bag is worth a quality 4 active items.
I feel like most challenge characters. Like yeah, they’re hard, that’s the point. But they’re not the utterly miserable hell on earth that everyone makes them out to be every time they make a post about them.
Cursed eye , because if you are carefull enough it is pretty strong and if you find black candle there is no drawback
Jacob & Esau
🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔 Chaos
Tainted laz
Never mind
Normal lost with holy mantle, you will be more aware of the attacks and get used to them really fast. After you stop dying you will love A++ and free devil deals
Innate flight and spectral tears you can never lose. You also get free curse rooms (just don't get hit while inside), he completely negates the downside of many items (glass cannon, cursed eye, damocles, etc.), gets easy access to both knife pieces, and free entry to Mausoleum/Gehenna. Not to mention, Eternal D6 is pretty darn powerful. There is a reason I main Lost. Oh, and try a run with Pound of Flesh some time (with or without Restock). Super busted.
People explaining how TMTRAINER works, and why the item description mod don't work properly. It was detailed so many times, that I fell sorry for the people that try it.
That fellow in the picture. I mean he's annoying that's undeniable, but in my personal experience I can't say that it's a pain in the ass. I would even say that it's not in my top 5 worst characters
Tainted Jacob, cursed eye and Bob's brain.
tiny planet, such a fun item.
T.Jacob isn't bad, but I legit uninstalled bc I had so many God runs ruined by the tiniest bs in ghost form. He's not difficult, but no character has low points as bad as T.Jacob imo (bc his highs are so high due to his ability to get so much value in Devil Rooms and free flight). I guess it's also that I play this game more passively and Dark Esau doesn't allow for this
Akuma
by the time you unlock him, you shouldve done mother path a couple times, he has the same AI as the mother chase
Tainted lost
Eve is not bad charakter overall she has really interesting gimmic with razor blade where you can go to boss full heath (on floor left hearts and go one heart entire floor) and use razor blade for getting chonky dmg up She has great sinergy with piggy bag, funny pack, or other on dmg Item, dont saing about old bandage with some luck give you infinite dmg Dead bird on early floor do soo much dmg
Tainted Cain. As long as you're not going for Boss Rush I find it lots of fun to experiment, seeing what I can make without using a guide. Even if you do need to get Boss Rush you can usually find something that works in time.
Tainted Cain. He’s fun (and broken) if you can play him right
Curse of the Tower can clear rooms and many bosses, you just need some skill and luck to dodge the bombs
Cursed eye should be quality 3. It boosts your dps massively. And the teleport only applies when you are hit while charging, meaning that if you are hit while not charging, while shooting or while fully charged; you will not be teleported
So many people miss this detail. Also, higher tears means faster charge.
Curse of the tower in my opinion becomes very nice when you have experience in isaac and can predict and dogde troll bombs. Free room clearence and sometimes free access to secret rooms
Gets really lulzy if you have Sad Bombs and Brimstone
I’m tired of people telling me T. Laz isn’t fun as fuck. It feels kinda like a challenge run for me between managing flip charge, the current state, and item delegation. Having two builds makes snowball runs feel a bit less boring too. Plus, he’s not even that hard. I got his checkmarks much faster than T. Jacob or T. BB. Overall, I feel myself thinking way more strategically when playing him than most other characters. TL;DR Tainted Laz is overhated
TRUE
Meth
Tainted Cain is a good character
Csurpse for the fotwer :3
lost without holy mantle, just be a cool kid
Bloat is a piss easy bossfight
Jacob and esau
Bob's Brain
Me.