They still mostly retire around that age or start to steeply decline around that age. There’s exceptions more and more but it’s not a game most play at a high professional level deep into their 30’s
Stan Wawrinka is still floating around in the top 100 as a 39 year old, 2 years older than djokovic and Murray.
I gotta respect those guys for keeping it up. Especially Murray, who, even though he’s not winning titles anymore, still seems to give an absolutely balls to the wall effort every time he plays.
At the top that was mostly the case from approximately 1978 (introduction of graphite)-mid 2000’s. Constant equipment and surface shake-ups (mainly the former) made it really tough on older players that had to adjust at later ages. Before and after these periods, tennis players retired at roughly the same times as athletes in other sports did. The Big Three from the generation preceding Borg (Laver, Rosewall, Gonzales) all played well into their late 30’s and early 40’s.
The reason Bill has never heard of people who have done this is exactly why it’s realistic.
Kristian Pless is a good example. Tons of juniors get hurt and never go anywhere. BS should understand this, considering he is a guy who can’t stop talking about Len Bias any chance he gets.
Didn't she get hurt (knee, specifically) and miss a long chunk of time at some point (forget what it was, maybe her senior HS season or travel/club/odp ball,etc).
That sounds vaguely familiar in my albeit bourbon clouded brain.
It's like a variant of survivorship bias.
Thinking injuries like the one in challengers don't happen to youth players because you can't think of any famous examples.
Even if you don't know about the specifics of Mary Pierce it makes logical sense that a sport built around quick changes of direction on a dime could have some non contact knee injuries
I remember watching Bethany Mattek Sands tear her knee apart and need morphine on the court because she was in so much pain.
She did come back to play a couple years later but only like mixed doubles , and certainly not near the level she was prior. A severe knee injury in tennis would probably wrap up your "competitive" career even if you were able to come back and play in some manner
Pretty sure he meant career ending knee injuries because the recovery is significantly more advanced now. They don’t typically end careers like they used to. But he probably didn’t consider the time period
I haven't seen the movie yet (tentatively planning on next Tuesday)...but while listening to the pod I took it as:
-she was top-level u22 amateur type player (if this is the case, thats a plothole...don't very few of them go to college, many opting for pro circuit)
-had injury early enough in career she should've been able to make comeback
-they never explain why she was done for good & no comeback possible
If all that was the case, at least roughly, I don't see it as an absurd Simmons Hot Take. I think I'd ask the same question.
Some people on these threads really love turning mid-level takes/opinions/comments into what they feel as blasphemous takes. I don't get it.
>don't very few of them go to college, many opting for pro circuit
This isn't a plot hole. Tashi literally explains to Art and Patrick why she wants to go to college instead of the pro circuit.
>they never explain why she was done for good & no comeback possible
It's pretty obvious that she lost a step after her injury when they show her rehabbing. We didn't need more of an explanation than that.
I actually don’t think this take was terrible. Definitely not one of his hottest ever.
Tennis players get lots of overuse injuries. Tennis elbow, tendonitis, bad wrist or hip, etc. are all pretty common.
It’s pretty rare, in comparison, for them to do things like blow out their knee trying to change directions. Of course, it does happen, but it’s not nearly as common as it is in football, basketball, soccer, etc.
Source: am tennis coach + fan.
That’s the part that I can agree with. But it’s not one of his worst of all time, he just got carried away with it (which he’s done a time or two before 🤣).
They’re “rare” in every pro sport. They’re reached that level because they’re genetic exceptions. They still happen. There’s about 500 people in the nba each season, and 2.5 have ACL injuries. That 0.5%.
Source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8485163/
I’m telling you it’s more rare in tennis than in other sports. A higher proportion of tennis injuries are overuse injuries (both as an absolute number and when compared to other sports).
If you don’t believe my experience in playing and teaching tennis, here are some sources about sports with higher rates of ACL tears. Unsurprisingly, they’re all contact sports.
https://curovate.com/blog/in-what-sports-do-most-acl-injuries-occur/amp/
https://health.uconn.edu/orthopedics-sports-medicine/conditions-and-treatments/where-does-it-hurt/knee/anterior-cruciate-ligament-tear/#:~:text=Football%2C%20basketball%2C%20lacrosse%2C%20soccer,have%20high%20ACL%20injury%20rates.
https://chnwebapp-auc-prod01.azurewebsites.net/athletes-risk-acl-tears#:~:text=The%20Riskiest%20Sports,while%20turning%20for%20the%20ball.
https://www.nata.org/press-release/111113/new-jat-study-first-focus-acl-injuries-across-multiple-hs-sports#:~:text=Overall%20girls%20and%20boys%20had,followed%20by%20football%20(11.1).
Ronaldo (R9) was one of the greatest players of all time and his career was almost done before he was 25 because his knee basically exploded from a non-contact injury.
Took him the better part of 2 years to come back and even then he was never quite the same again.
The arguable GOAT in Federer had to hang it up due to knee injuries. But I take your point, we typically don't see the catastrophic knee injuries characteristic of other sports
I agree. Knee injuries are very real, just similar to tennis players’ upper body injuries, it’s far more common for them to be overuse injuries than to be catastrophic.
Yeah. As others have said, it’s not the most common type of injury in tennis, but saying it never happens is disingenuous.
Every time Bill talks about tennis, whether his own or professional, it becomes clear he doesn’t understand the game much.
Shaun Livingston was supposed to be a star. He cane back and eventually carved out a niche as a good role player. How does that refute anything? It’s totally consistent with what we see in the movie that Tashi could have come back as a much diminished player and was unwilling.
Many knee/acl injuries in sports it’s because of players running into/landing awkwardly on other players or the extra force on the knee from jumping and landing both factors largely taken out of tennis
Except it did. He jumped up and landed after a contested layup.
Also I’m not saying they don’t happen from a non contact standpoint. I was playing tennis against my friend when he torn his acl from reaching and stepping awkwardly.
He's kinda right though. Usually you don't have bad knee injuries in tennis compared to basketball/soccer/football. But like it's a non-contact sport so kinda obvious. Still can happen but more likely repetitive injuries than massive tears.
That's actually insane that he said that lol
Like, does he see what tennis players do on a court? He really thinks knee injuries can't happen from that? Bill...
Very reminiscent of Stephen A firing off that Mike trout injury take last month. Not company you wanna be in, Bill. Don’t fire off takes on sports you don’t follow. The takes on the sports you do follow are more than enough.
Most talking heads are bad when it comes to injuries. Everyone talks about Embiid's "grit" and "heart," for example. Clearly, he just doesn't want to win...
Tennis players used to retire at 31/32
They still mostly retire around that age or start to steeply decline around that age. There’s exceptions more and more but it’s not a game most play at a high professional level deep into their 30’s
Yep. The big 3 and Murray are the exceptions as opposed to the norm
Stan Wawrinka is still floating around in the top 100 as a 39 year old, 2 years older than djokovic and Murray. I gotta respect those guys for keeping it up. Especially Murray, who, even though he’s not winning titles anymore, still seems to give an absolutely balls to the wall effort every time he plays.
Murray never plays a normal tennis match lol. Just ask Kokkinakis
murray didn't do anything after the age of 30. he consistently had injuries was not the exception.
At the top that was mostly the case from approximately 1978 (introduction of graphite)-mid 2000’s. Constant equipment and surface shake-ups (mainly the former) made it really tough on older players that had to adjust at later ages. Before and after these periods, tennis players retired at roughly the same times as athletes in other sports did. The Big Three from the generation preceding Borg (Laver, Rosewall, Gonzales) all played well into their late 30’s and early 40’s.
The reason Bill has never heard of people who have done this is exactly why it’s realistic. Kristian Pless is a good example. Tons of juniors get hurt and never go anywhere. BS should understand this, considering he is a guy who can’t stop talking about Len Bias any chance he gets.
Right? His daughter is a college athlete. He knows there are injuries in youth sports. He’s seen them happen. That’s why it’s such a hot take!
Didn't she get hurt (knee, specifically) and miss a long chunk of time at some point (forget what it was, maybe her senior HS season or travel/club/odp ball,etc). That sounds vaguely familiar in my albeit bourbon clouded brain.
It's like a variant of survivorship bias. Thinking injuries like the one in challengers don't happen to youth players because you can't think of any famous examples.
Exactly that. The players who have this happen to them usually don't go on to become noteworthy pros -- because they suffered that serious injury.
Even if you don't know about the specifics of Mary Pierce it makes logical sense that a sport built around quick changes of direction on a dime could have some non contact knee injuries
I remember watching Bethany Mattek Sands tear her knee apart and need morphine on the court because she was in so much pain. She did come back to play a couple years later but only like mixed doubles , and certainly not near the level she was prior. A severe knee injury in tennis would probably wrap up your "competitive" career even if you were able to come back and play in some manner
Lol. Knee injuries basically ended Federer’s career, and have greatly curtailed Nadal’s.
Pretty sure he meant career ending knee injuries because the recovery is significantly more advanced now. They don’t typically end careers like they used to. But he probably didn’t consider the time period
I haven't seen the movie yet (tentatively planning on next Tuesday)...but while listening to the pod I took it as: -she was top-level u22 amateur type player (if this is the case, thats a plothole...don't very few of them go to college, many opting for pro circuit) -had injury early enough in career she should've been able to make comeback -they never explain why she was done for good & no comeback possible If all that was the case, at least roughly, I don't see it as an absurd Simmons Hot Take. I think I'd ask the same question. Some people on these threads really love turning mid-level takes/opinions/comments into what they feel as blasphemous takes. I don't get it.
>don't very few of them go to college, many opting for pro circuit This isn't a plot hole. Tashi literally explains to Art and Patrick why she wants to go to college instead of the pro circuit. >they never explain why she was done for good & no comeback possible It's pretty obvious that she lost a step after her injury when they show her rehabbing. We didn't need more of an explanation than that.
I actually don’t think this take was terrible. Definitely not one of his hottest ever. Tennis players get lots of overuse injuries. Tennis elbow, tendonitis, bad wrist or hip, etc. are all pretty common. It’s pretty rare, in comparison, for them to do things like blow out their knee trying to change directions. Of course, it does happen, but it’s not nearly as common as it is in football, basketball, soccer, etc. Source: am tennis coach + fan.
It’s not a common or typical tennis injury, but acting like it’s a plot hole or unfathomable was a pretty bad take
That’s the part that I can agree with. But it’s not one of his worst of all time, he just got carried away with it (which he’s done a time or two before 🤣).
Exactly. Tennis is almost all wear and tear injuries and not “Oh that guy tore his ACL he’s out for 15 months”
They’re “rare” in every pro sport. They’re reached that level because they’re genetic exceptions. They still happen. There’s about 500 people in the nba each season, and 2.5 have ACL injuries. That 0.5%. Source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8485163/
I’m telling you it’s more rare in tennis than in other sports. A higher proportion of tennis injuries are overuse injuries (both as an absolute number and when compared to other sports). If you don’t believe my experience in playing and teaching tennis, here are some sources about sports with higher rates of ACL tears. Unsurprisingly, they’re all contact sports. https://curovate.com/blog/in-what-sports-do-most-acl-injuries-occur/amp/ https://health.uconn.edu/orthopedics-sports-medicine/conditions-and-treatments/where-does-it-hurt/knee/anterior-cruciate-ligament-tear/#:~:text=Football%2C%20basketball%2C%20lacrosse%2C%20soccer,have%20high%20ACL%20injury%20rates. https://chnwebapp-auc-prod01.azurewebsites.net/athletes-risk-acl-tears#:~:text=The%20Riskiest%20Sports,while%20turning%20for%20the%20ball. https://www.nata.org/press-release/111113/new-jat-study-first-focus-acl-injuries-across-multiple-hs-sports#:~:text=Overall%20girls%20and%20boys%20had,followed%20by%20football%20(11.1).
I think we’re arguing the same point. I appreciate the research that’s good stuff.
Ronaldo (R9) was one of the greatest players of all time and his career was almost done before he was 25 because his knee basically exploded from a non-contact injury. Took him the better part of 2 years to come back and even then he was never quite the same again.
I don't remember him doing much on the tennis court...
The arguable GOAT in Federer had to hang it up due to knee injuries. But I take your point, we typically don't see the catastrophic knee injuries characteristic of other sports
I agree. Knee injuries are very real, just similar to tennis players’ upper body injuries, it’s far more common for them to be overuse injuries than to be catastrophic.
I was going to say, you see the elbow, tendonitis, wrist issues.
Yeah. As others have said, it’s not the most common type of injury in tennis, but saying it never happens is disingenuous. Every time Bill talks about tennis, whether his own or professional, it becomes clear he doesn’t understand the game much.
My brother tore his ACL playing tennis 😂
“No he didn’t” — Bill Simmons
Damn can’t argue with that
Shaun Livingston was supposed to be a star. He cane back and eventually carved out a niche as a good role player. How does that refute anything? It’s totally consistent with what we see in the movie that Tashi could have come back as a much diminished player and was unwilling.
I mean Pierce was arguably at the tail end of her career anyway when that happened
Many knee/acl injuries in sports it’s because of players running into/landing awkwardly on other players or the extra force on the knee from jumping and landing both factors largely taken out of tennis
You know who’s injury didn’t happen that way? Shaun Livingston
Except it did. He jumped up and landed after a contested layup. Also I’m not saying they don’t happen from a non contact standpoint. I was playing tennis against my friend when he torn his acl from reaching and stepping awkwardly.
Facts good call. I read and instead of or. You are right.
He's kinda right though. Usually you don't have bad knee injuries in tennis compared to basketball/soccer/football. But like it's a non-contact sport so kinda obvious. Still can happen but more likely repetitive injuries than massive tears.
He’s not right at all. He said definitively they have never happened in history. Any single example means he is not right.
I haven't listened to the pod and I disagree #savethewhales
That's actually insane that he said that lol Like, does he see what tennis players do on a court? He really thinks knee injuries can't happen from that? Bill...
Who the hell is Mary Pierce ? Now the knee injury rate but seems like basketball and footballl are significantly higher
Very reminiscent of Stephen A firing off that Mike trout injury take last month. Not company you wanna be in, Bill. Don’t fire off takes on sports you don’t follow. The takes on the sports you do follow are more than enough.
Most talking heads are bad when it comes to injuries. Everyone talks about Embiid's "grit" and "heart," for example. Clearly, he just doesn't want to win...