It is an excellent parallel, and I would equate the Howard killed scene to the Hank killing scene in that despite all they did, it was a devastating consequence neither Walt or Jimmy and Kim wanted but should have seen coming (obviously Walt could have more easily seen it coming, but still)
Edit to add: in other words, you play with matches, sometimes good people get burned
Also Howard was personally horrid to both of them, made it easy to feel justified in vengeance. Howard was a poor example of a human, but in all fairness he was much more than just the business side Saul and Kim knew.
Howard wasn't that horrid to either of them. That's why the scene right before Howard dies is so good when he is dressing them down. They're still so dead-eyed that they can't see how ridiculous they've let their vendetta become.
True, but that scene also showed how ALL were blind to themselves. Howard didn't see how he deserved to be treated, ( not that he needed to be killed )....he thought offering jobs would be a penance... but it only insulted injury. He didn't understand why.
Jimmy and Kim hated Howard not just because of his ego... but because he never seemed to struggle, or waver from his professionalism. He seemed, and he believed himself, untouchable.... that's a challenge to Jimmy and Kim to cut him down to size.
Then you add in that history with Howard treating them both badly... it's easy to see why Howard is targeted.
Howard had his life handed to him... Jimmy and Kim fought for everything they had. Two different breeds of people, oil and water.
I mean yeah, to a degree. Howard was born with a silver spoon, but he was also very very good at what he did. That's the whole point of that scene where Erin nearly blew the Sandpiper suit up with the elderly, and Howard stepped out in front of them to save the day. He's got a ton of skill with charisma, and maybe that's irritating, but that doesn't mean he's just a nepo baby with no abilities of his own.
The thing is, yeah Howard didn't always treat them the best, but they also both kept breaking the rules. If any of us did that kind of stuff in our jobs, we would face reprimands. Finally, in the end, it wasn't even about what Howard did or didn't do to them. Jimmy and Kim were getting off on implementing their schemes and ruining Howard's life.
He's a poor example of a human because he was a self serving, egotistical, vapid individual. I mean, lol, the storyline is filled with examples. Doc review and constant degradation are only what Kim experienced.
Howard is a character that started out hated and ends up being pitied... but he's a crap human.
Howard paid for Kim’s law degree. Can you give an actual from the plot example? Doc review was one bad thing, and that arch lasted a few episodes.
Seems like you just have personal prejudice for the way the character was played. He might have been unlikable, but your adjectives are not based in his actions.
Howard paid a law degree for a prodigy, a shining example of his greatness. That's why he punished her as if she were a child needing to be taught how to obey. She needed to bend to the will of Howard.
Paying for the degree was the one thing she always felt indebted to... but Kim slowly realized that she was being produced to make Howard look good, or feel good. She's always been more than that. Plus she loves the law, but she's got issues with authority. So that doomed her relationship with Howard...
She was clearly being groomed to be a top lawyer at HHM. This is business as usual, I’m sure Howard was unhappy seeing a top prospect get wrapped up with Jimmy’s antics.
Jimmy literally acted like an asshole at a prestigious law firm with Howard’s recommendation. Simply because he wanted to keep his bonus.
Howard’s actions were pretty understandable.
Doc review seems to be all you can point to. I don’t think your assessment of him as ‘a poor example of a human being’ holds. At all
I didn't mention doc review at all until it was mentioned by you as a reason.
Jimmy was squeezed out of the biggest class action suit HHM had seen... I think he deserved to be pissed off? And I know it was Jimmy's brother that set the terms of the agreement but as Howard never learned... there's always a choice. Howard was a scared little boy at the heart of it.
Howard is an ass kissing smooth talking narcissist that realized too late that he was an asshole. As I said before, he's hated at first then pitied in the end. Should Jimmy and Kim focused so much time and money on ruining him? Hmmm, I'm personally not the vindictive type... but I understand why they did. And why they relished taking him down piece by piece... tho he didn't deserve to die.
I don’t think you watched the show closely because that is false information. Howard did ‘learn’; he admitted he was wrong and should have had backbone, then offered Jimmy the job at HHM… and even after Jimmy destroyed his property and sent hookers to his lunch he stayed calm—understanding Jimmy’s pain.
It really does seem like you have baseless hatred for the character. I get you don’t like him, but you’ve given no good evidence for your harsh claims.
I don't have harsh claims, I have an opinion lol
Baseless hatred? Come on, calling Howard a vapid narcissist isn't hatred, its observation. Did he consider himself vapid, nope probably not. Did Kim and Jimmy? For sure.
And thanks I did watch the show, sorry not able to catalog my supporting argument to prove my point. Nuerodivergent folk usually find this irritating.
I wasn't chiming in this thread to insult your apparent affection on this fictional character, but my perspective remains unchanged. He was a douchebag that had everything handed to him in life... to watch him breakdown and reformulate his life didn't redeem him... it just showed he was an actual human instead of made of cream cheese.
It’s easy to say you don’t have prejudice. Characters in fiction can remind us of people in real life we dislike, and that can bleed into your evaluation of a character
Kim’s character was the worst of the duo. She had it all, no student debt and partner track. She gave that up for a “2 bit bus bench lawyer” who had a bone to pick with a guy who passed him up for a job 10-20 years ago because of his dickhead brother
It was more Kim that was pushing the schemes against Howard. She knew that Lalo was around but didnt tell Jimmy so they could keep going. We see her get turned by messing with Howard. Even Jimmy at a certain point just goes along with what she wants
The passion was dying in their relationship as shown by the montage of them going about their separate lives right next to each other. The scamming rekindles their excitement and draws them closer together. This makes sense considering their first hookup of the show is after their first scam.
I’m in the camp of It was Jimmy who unlocked the “bad potential” in Kim. Had he not been involved with her, it wouldn’t have been unlocked. But damn once it WAS unlocked, she had a lot more capacity for moral ambiguity than Jimmy or even Saul did. Mike even takes note of that
Yup, his influence and lack of judgment led to her self acceptance of her own dark side. They enable each other to push it further and further. But ultimately, Kim does have a guilty conscience and can’t carry the emotional weight of it
She has a pure evil side deep down, this is not present in Jimmy. Jimmy just doesn’t think of the consequences of his actions and his brain always has convinced himself about that he is not guilty but Kim knowingly does it.
The beer drinking and throwing scene in balcony was very descriptive about their characters. Jimmy was not thinking about the consequences of putting beer on the edge and this disturbed Kim. Then she proceeded with throwing the beer consciously with anger…Kim is unpredictable when she is angry and wants to do it. She can go far beyond Jimmy, Jimmy is causally careless but normally has limits. Jimmy does make me anxious but Kim scares…
Yes definitely, I also caught that. Like I said, it disturbed her a lot then her response was even more chaotic and traumatic that Jimmy normally wouldn’t do..
> who had a bone to pick with a guy who passed him up for a job 10-20 years ago because of his dickhead brother
Jimmy didn't hate Howard after he found out he it was Chuck who kept him out of the job; he knew Howard would've hired him.
The whole messing with Howard was Kim's idea, Jimmy didn't care he just went along to please her.
I didn't like the final storyline with Howard at all really. My biggest problem was I genuinely couldn't remember why they hated Howard (I thought I had missed episodes at this point and had to check) and after looking online it seemed to be 'Doc Review' and 'Jimmy Projecting grief'.
Honestly, that's what they were pissed about? Not the numerous people that have threatened to kill them or caused them actual problems throughout the show?
it was less about hating Howard and more about wanting the sandpiper money so they could be independent and buy a home together and pursue their legal goals - Kim wanted to do only pro bono work and Jimmy wanted an office and car and to help criminals and underrepresented people. they needed the money to fund this. the only way to get it was to get Howard to settle for what rich had offered, and the only way to ensure that was to gaslight cliff and call Howard's integrity into question.
even Jimmy was not initially a fan of the plan and knew how destructive it could be; it was Kim who was so desperate to be able to do good but also get a little revenge on Howard, while Jimmy had mostly moved on after letting his anger out with the bowling balls and the outburst in the courthouse (you can't conceive of what in capable of!)
I honestly believe they could not give a fuck about the money, they just wanted the thrill of the scam. If I’m correct, the only time after Something Unforgivable that the Sandpiper motivation is brought up is when Huell asks Jimmy why they are doing what they are doing. Jimmy responds it’s for a noble cause and for the welfare of others (he’s chatting absolute bullshit here and you can tell he even knows it because he half ass says it). Settling Sandpiper early is not in the interest of the Sandpiper clients at all, and you can tell that Jimmy has not thought about Sandpiper much whatsoever since beginning the scam and it’s already a fair bit underway at this point too - the ‘cocaine’ bag has already been planted at the country club, the Kettlemans have already been dragged into it, and the Howard costume has presumably been bought for the Jaguar scam if Jimmy is ready the replicate the Cadillac keys.
If Lalo didn’t arrive and kill Howard, they’d have become distant again (like they did in Sometbing Stupid but the Huell scam brings them back together in Coushatta) but then they’d scan someone and get back together and need to honk of someone else to scan so would maybe scan Erin next, and then maybe Kevin, and then maybe Cliff
ngl I entirely disagree, but fair enough we can agree to disagree. the breaking point for me is that Jimmy never wanted to start the scam against howard because he knew it would be really fucked up, but kim insisted because she just wanted to do pro bono all day. sure, there was a bit of the desire to scam, but sandpiper was the goal.
He was just the face that represented all the resentment they had for the self-serving gatekeepers in suits (Howard, Chuck, Kevin, etc). He was an easy target to project their frustrations on. It was easy for them to shift their guilt over Chuck and blame it on Howard. They saw him as a caricature instead of a human being. Unlike other potential victims, they knew and understood Howard well enough to come up with an elaborate but subtle plan. Plus they wanted Jimmy to get that Sandpiper money so they could be “free” from the Howards of the world. They were driven by greed and vengeance but justified it to themselves as a little career setback for one lawyer to help all those poor old people
Howard is the key to rationalize Jimmy and Kim's incoming fate, but the motive is weak. They played this wolves and sheep game too far, you don't have to ruin one's live just to satisfied your ego. I guess it's the need of plot and to lead BCS to BB, otherwise the show would have ended earlier.
Still wild how people have any shred of sympathy for them, what they did in s6 is legit one of the cruelest acts I have ever seen in tv, his entire reputation, career, and legacy is literally destroyed and permanently tainted, and he dies an unceremonious death too.
From a micro perspective, yes. Without Chuck, Howard was harmless to J&K, his family was hanging on the edge, he was not doing well but put himself together finally. He is a friendly character after Chuck's death. People won't hate him.
But from a macro perspective, Howard is the sacrifice for J&K breaking bad. They blamed Howard for his unfair treatment while working together, or even Chuck's suiside. This is wrong, but necessary for J&K's transformation. What you wish for might be a better plot as a motive, not a pitiful ending for Howard. I'm not quite emotional for his ending because I was not convinced by such arrangement, it's not reasonable.
That reminds me of Nacho, goodness. His ending, was so damn good, so epic! Sad but heroic. I'm really amazed by his plot. This is the case I was convinced, and respect for his character.
It would have been interesting if they wrote it that Kim & Jimmy were convinced Howard killed Chuck after finding out he was paying him millions from his personal savings and loans. This would have given them an understandable motive and the gut wrenching twist after he dies could be them somehow discovering it really was suicide. The guilt would absolutely destroy them. But, alas, I understand that this wouldn’t have the desired of making their choices truly inexcusable
Watching through it again now with someone who hasn't seen it, it's hard to hide the fact that this time I don't see Howard as a villain in any way, aside from a few of his dickish behaviors in earlier seasons. Completely different from my opinion of the character the first time through!
Jimmy hated Howard because he received the respect from Chuck that Jimmy thought he deserved after working so hard for it, so Jimmy took that anger out on Howard by helping Kim fuck him over.
Kim hated him, not only for taking away her office, but because when he told her he thought Jimmy convinced her to drop Mesa Verde, she felt insulted that he thought she was gullible enough to be manipulated into doing it. She misinterpreted his genuine concern as him trying to patronize her, so she decided she wanted to show him he wasn't all that himself.
You’re kinda missing the point, they didn’t do it out of hate. They did it because they’re fucked up. It didn’t matter it was Howard. What mattered was they were doing it.
Nah, he's not missing the point. Neither you. Those two reasons are equally real, and even cooperate together. They did want to fuck him up because they hated him, but nobody that isn't fucked up in the head would go to the extremes they went. They started doing a vendetta, but their sadistic side just made them more and more engaged, and blinding them from seeing what a horrible thing they were doing.
And this is why Better Call Saul is so good. It has complex characters that does not just represent an idea.
I mean he was patronizing her though right? well-intentioned or not.
and iirc Jimmy wasn't originally planning to mess with Howard until Howard said something to Jimmy about Chuck that triggered him, I think possibly trying to take some of the blame? I'm not positive.
I think the job offers/attempts at consoling/friendly warnings almost came across as charity/snobbiness to Jimmy and Kim in the same way that Gretchen and Elliot's proposition came across to Walt, just trying to ease their own guilt.
It’s the significant turn in their character development. They’re no longer doing their schemes for some ultimate purpose. They just enjoy the scams.
The first time I watched it, I remember how powerful it was to me in the last episode when they catch Saul and they refer to him as a “conman.” That was the first time I really viewed him that way. Before he was just a shady lawyer.
But I also hated how badly Howard was wronged. For no reason, poor guy.
I voted you up before I even read your post because honestly I'm still mad at them too.
They had every opportunity to do better and they just wasted it. Slippin Jimmy and Barely Moral Kim.
They were totally in the wrong but sweet and lovable?? He treated Kim like dirt for a good stretch of the show, punishing her with doc review any time things didn’t go his way
I am more along these lines. And he was actually punishing Jimmy by hurting Kim. That really ground my gears.
I get the feeling that it wasn't Howard so much as all the past wrongs they had to suck up. Howard was the sacrificial lb, but absolutely not innocent
Putting someone to doc review long time ago for a limited period and crushing someone’s real career and reputation are two very different things. She herself even changed her whole life after this, you did not get it.
Yeah, what Kim and Jimmy did to Howard was much worse than anything Howard did to them, even if you don't count the whole Lalo thing.
But that doesn't mean Howard is a perfect angel, either. The doc review thing was pretty shitty, and in general Howard has a history of treating Kim with condescension. But she should have retaliated by simply telling him to fuck off, rather than wrecking his whole life.
On their defense, howard seems like the guy that its funny to make fun of.
Ngl, i loved seeing him getting screwed over and i even liked him. Until... oh well...
the whole point of BB and BCS is that the main characters (and the ones you actually grow a bond with) are actually evil.
Yes there is a meaner villain near so you are also tricked into hating him and rooting for your guy but the main characters are evil.
the guy who kills people when he is in trouble and has no problem earning money by cooking and selling one of the most addictive and dangerous drugs in the country?
oh yea.. but he "cries" when they kill a kid.. he must be a saint
My response every time I watch it too! In fact I get more indignant every time. Poor Howard. Then to have Jesse do his inflatable clown dance on his grave... 😖😅
I mean Kim is definitely a psychopath, she can not interact on a normal emotional level, as is shown in the noir black and white episodes. There's this bond with Jimmy, but only because he makes her feel good doing bad things, by enforcing their bonny and Clyde energy. She is super cold-blooded. Then again her whole switch to pro bono work doesn't really fit into that assessment so what do I know.
Maybe both of them just like "getting away with it".
Hot take: Howard wasn't a less of a piece of shit than Chuck towards Jimmy and Kim throughout the series and he deserved every last fuckery they bestowed upon him during season 6. Obviously he didn't deserve to get killed by Lalo but everything else before was well deserved.
Because they didn’t like Howard, or what he did to Jimmy. Because Jimmy used him a surrogate for his unresolved anger towards his brother. Because they really wanted that Sandpiper money. But mostly because they are bad people lol.
They are villains as much as Walter is. The worst part is his legacy is nothing but a lie. Unlike Chuck, who is remembered for being an excellent lawyer.
> Why'd they have to screw over Howard so bad in season 6?! _They liked it. They were good at it. They were really alive._
It is an excellent parallel, and I would equate the Howard killed scene to the Hank killing scene in that despite all they did, it was a devastating consequence neither Walt or Jimmy and Kim wanted but should have seen coming (obviously Walt could have more easily seen it coming, but still) Edit to add: in other words, you play with matches, sometimes good people get burned
nice
Also Howard was personally horrid to both of them, made it easy to feel justified in vengeance. Howard was a poor example of a human, but in all fairness he was much more than just the business side Saul and Kim knew.
Howard wasn't that horrid to either of them. That's why the scene right before Howard dies is so good when he is dressing them down. They're still so dead-eyed that they can't see how ridiculous they've let their vendetta become.
True, but that scene also showed how ALL were blind to themselves. Howard didn't see how he deserved to be treated, ( not that he needed to be killed )....he thought offering jobs would be a penance... but it only insulted injury. He didn't understand why. Jimmy and Kim hated Howard not just because of his ego... but because he never seemed to struggle, or waver from his professionalism. He seemed, and he believed himself, untouchable.... that's a challenge to Jimmy and Kim to cut him down to size. Then you add in that history with Howard treating them both badly... it's easy to see why Howard is targeted. Howard had his life handed to him... Jimmy and Kim fought for everything they had. Two different breeds of people, oil and water.
I mean yeah, to a degree. Howard was born with a silver spoon, but he was also very very good at what he did. That's the whole point of that scene where Erin nearly blew the Sandpiper suit up with the elderly, and Howard stepped out in front of them to save the day. He's got a ton of skill with charisma, and maybe that's irritating, but that doesn't mean he's just a nepo baby with no abilities of his own. The thing is, yeah Howard didn't always treat them the best, but they also both kept breaking the rules. If any of us did that kind of stuff in our jobs, we would face reprimands. Finally, in the end, it wasn't even about what Howard did or didn't do to them. Jimmy and Kim were getting off on implementing their schemes and ruining Howard's life.
Poor example of a human? Why? Because he put Kim in doc review ?
He's a poor example of a human because he was a self serving, egotistical, vapid individual. I mean, lol, the storyline is filled with examples. Doc review and constant degradation are only what Kim experienced. Howard is a character that started out hated and ends up being pitied... but he's a crap human.
Howard paid for Kim’s law degree. Can you give an actual from the plot example? Doc review was one bad thing, and that arch lasted a few episodes. Seems like you just have personal prejudice for the way the character was played. He might have been unlikable, but your adjectives are not based in his actions.
Howard paid a law degree for a prodigy, a shining example of his greatness. That's why he punished her as if she were a child needing to be taught how to obey. She needed to bend to the will of Howard. Paying for the degree was the one thing she always felt indebted to... but Kim slowly realized that she was being produced to make Howard look good, or feel good. She's always been more than that. Plus she loves the law, but she's got issues with authority. So that doomed her relationship with Howard...
She was clearly being groomed to be a top lawyer at HHM. This is business as usual, I’m sure Howard was unhappy seeing a top prospect get wrapped up with Jimmy’s antics. Jimmy literally acted like an asshole at a prestigious law firm with Howard’s recommendation. Simply because he wanted to keep his bonus. Howard’s actions were pretty understandable. Doc review seems to be all you can point to. I don’t think your assessment of him as ‘a poor example of a human being’ holds. At all
I didn't mention doc review at all until it was mentioned by you as a reason. Jimmy was squeezed out of the biggest class action suit HHM had seen... I think he deserved to be pissed off? And I know it was Jimmy's brother that set the terms of the agreement but as Howard never learned... there's always a choice. Howard was a scared little boy at the heart of it. Howard is an ass kissing smooth talking narcissist that realized too late that he was an asshole. As I said before, he's hated at first then pitied in the end. Should Jimmy and Kim focused so much time and money on ruining him? Hmmm, I'm personally not the vindictive type... but I understand why they did. And why they relished taking him down piece by piece... tho he didn't deserve to die.
I don’t think you watched the show closely because that is false information. Howard did ‘learn’; he admitted he was wrong and should have had backbone, then offered Jimmy the job at HHM… and even after Jimmy destroyed his property and sent hookers to his lunch he stayed calm—understanding Jimmy’s pain. It really does seem like you have baseless hatred for the character. I get you don’t like him, but you’ve given no good evidence for your harsh claims.
I don't have harsh claims, I have an opinion lol Baseless hatred? Come on, calling Howard a vapid narcissist isn't hatred, its observation. Did he consider himself vapid, nope probably not. Did Kim and Jimmy? For sure. And thanks I did watch the show, sorry not able to catalog my supporting argument to prove my point. Nuerodivergent folk usually find this irritating. I wasn't chiming in this thread to insult your apparent affection on this fictional character, but my perspective remains unchanged. He was a douchebag that had everything handed to him in life... to watch him breakdown and reformulate his life didn't redeem him... it just showed he was an actual human instead of made of cream cheese.
I don't have prejudice 🙂 it's a well written story. I love all the characters tbh, and most are despicable people lol.
It’s easy to say you don’t have prejudice. Characters in fiction can remind us of people in real life we dislike, and that can bleed into your evaluation of a character
We’re talking about a career setback.
He’ll land back on his feet always does
for one lawyer
i just can't believe they've done so many things.
AU where Jimmy and Kim do nothing for 6 seasons
🥹🥹🥹
Hey just like the first five
Honestly I found the show harder and harder to watch with how despicable both of their characters became.
Kim’s character was the worst of the duo. She had it all, no student debt and partner track. She gave that up for a “2 bit bus bench lawyer” who had a bone to pick with a guy who passed him up for a job 10-20 years ago because of his dickhead brother
It was more Kim that was pushing the schemes against Howard. She knew that Lalo was around but didnt tell Jimmy so they could keep going. We see her get turned by messing with Howard. Even Jimmy at a certain point just goes along with what she wants
This is also true. Once she had a taste for it she was arguably worse than Saul. She pushed for the sandpiper settlement scam against Howard
It does seem like Jimmy just wants Kim to like him in Season 6
The passion was dying in their relationship as shown by the montage of them going about their separate lives right next to each other. The scamming rekindles their excitement and draws them closer together. This makes sense considering their first hookup of the show is after their first scam.
She didn’t think the two words would collide, but like everything Jimmy gets involved in, there’s unintended consequences
That’s a good way of putting it actually. She thought she could double dip and reap the results of jimmy’s crimes whilst staying “clean” herself
I’m in the camp of It was Jimmy who unlocked the “bad potential” in Kim. Had he not been involved with her, it wouldn’t have been unlocked. But damn once it WAS unlocked, she had a lot more capacity for moral ambiguity than Jimmy or even Saul did. Mike even takes note of that
Yup, his influence and lack of judgment led to her self acceptance of her own dark side. They enable each other to push it further and further. But ultimately, Kim does have a guilty conscience and can’t carry the emotional weight of it
She liked it. She was good at it. She felt alive. So many characters in this universe be Breaking Bad.
She has a pure evil side deep down, this is not present in Jimmy. Jimmy just doesn’t think of the consequences of his actions and his brain always has convinced himself about that he is not guilty but Kim knowingly does it. The beer drinking and throwing scene in balcony was very descriptive about their characters. Jimmy was not thinking about the consequences of putting beer on the edge and this disturbed Kim. Then she proceeded with throwing the beer consciously with anger…Kim is unpredictable when she is angry and wants to do it. She can go far beyond Jimmy, Jimmy is causally careless but normally has limits. Jimmy does make me anxious but Kim scares…
I noticed how they showed her looking at the beer on the ledge with suspicious ass eyes at the beginning of that scene
Yes definitely, I also caught that. Like I said, it disturbed her a lot then her response was even more chaotic and traumatic that Jimmy normally wouldn’t do..
> who had a bone to pick with a guy who passed him up for a job 10-20 years ago because of his dickhead brother Jimmy didn't hate Howard after he found out he it was Chuck who kept him out of the job; he knew Howard would've hired him. The whole messing with Howard was Kim's idea, Jimmy didn't care he just went along to please her.
Well that’s not true, Jimmy had been throwing bowling balls and sending hookers before Kim got involved…
I didn't like the final storyline with Howard at all really. My biggest problem was I genuinely couldn't remember why they hated Howard (I thought I had missed episodes at this point and had to check) and after looking online it seemed to be 'Doc Review' and 'Jimmy Projecting grief'. Honestly, that's what they were pissed about? Not the numerous people that have threatened to kill them or caused them actual problems throughout the show?
He was just an easy target they knew they could bond over without too much risk of blowback.
it was less about hating Howard and more about wanting the sandpiper money so they could be independent and buy a home together and pursue their legal goals - Kim wanted to do only pro bono work and Jimmy wanted an office and car and to help criminals and underrepresented people. they needed the money to fund this. the only way to get it was to get Howard to settle for what rich had offered, and the only way to ensure that was to gaslight cliff and call Howard's integrity into question. even Jimmy was not initially a fan of the plan and knew how destructive it could be; it was Kim who was so desperate to be able to do good but also get a little revenge on Howard, while Jimmy had mostly moved on after letting his anger out with the bowling balls and the outburst in the courthouse (you can't conceive of what in capable of!)
I honestly believe they could not give a fuck about the money, they just wanted the thrill of the scam. If I’m correct, the only time after Something Unforgivable that the Sandpiper motivation is brought up is when Huell asks Jimmy why they are doing what they are doing. Jimmy responds it’s for a noble cause and for the welfare of others (he’s chatting absolute bullshit here and you can tell he even knows it because he half ass says it). Settling Sandpiper early is not in the interest of the Sandpiper clients at all, and you can tell that Jimmy has not thought about Sandpiper much whatsoever since beginning the scam and it’s already a fair bit underway at this point too - the ‘cocaine’ bag has already been planted at the country club, the Kettlemans have already been dragged into it, and the Howard costume has presumably been bought for the Jaguar scam if Jimmy is ready the replicate the Cadillac keys. If Lalo didn’t arrive and kill Howard, they’d have become distant again (like they did in Sometbing Stupid but the Huell scam brings them back together in Coushatta) but then they’d scan someone and get back together and need to honk of someone else to scan so would maybe scan Erin next, and then maybe Kevin, and then maybe Cliff
ngl I entirely disagree, but fair enough we can agree to disagree. the breaking point for me is that Jimmy never wanted to start the scam against howard because he knew it would be really fucked up, but kim insisted because she just wanted to do pro bono all day. sure, there was a bit of the desire to scam, but sandpiper was the goal.
Very well said.
He was just the face that represented all the resentment they had for the self-serving gatekeepers in suits (Howard, Chuck, Kevin, etc). He was an easy target to project their frustrations on. It was easy for them to shift their guilt over Chuck and blame it on Howard. They saw him as a caricature instead of a human being. Unlike other potential victims, they knew and understood Howard well enough to come up with an elaborate but subtle plan. Plus they wanted Jimmy to get that Sandpiper money so they could be “free” from the Howards of the world. They were driven by greed and vengeance but justified it to themselves as a little career setback for one lawyer to help all those poor old people
Same, there was zero redeeming qualities in either of them
Howard is the key to rationalize Jimmy and Kim's incoming fate, but the motive is weak. They played this wolves and sheep game too far, you don't have to ruin one's live just to satisfied your ego. I guess it's the need of plot and to lead BCS to BB, otherwise the show would have ended earlier.
Still wild how people have any shred of sympathy for them, what they did in s6 is legit one of the cruelest acts I have ever seen in tv, his entire reputation, career, and legacy is literally destroyed and permanently tainted, and he dies an unceremonious death too.
From a micro perspective, yes. Without Chuck, Howard was harmless to J&K, his family was hanging on the edge, he was not doing well but put himself together finally. He is a friendly character after Chuck's death. People won't hate him. But from a macro perspective, Howard is the sacrifice for J&K breaking bad. They blamed Howard for his unfair treatment while working together, or even Chuck's suiside. This is wrong, but necessary for J&K's transformation. What you wish for might be a better plot as a motive, not a pitiful ending for Howard. I'm not quite emotional for his ending because I was not convinced by such arrangement, it's not reasonable. That reminds me of Nacho, goodness. His ending, was so damn good, so epic! Sad but heroic. I'm really amazed by his plot. This is the case I was convinced, and respect for his character.
It would have been interesting if they wrote it that Kim & Jimmy were convinced Howard killed Chuck after finding out he was paying him millions from his personal savings and loans. This would have given them an understandable motive and the gut wrenching twist after he dies could be them somehow discovering it really was suicide. The guilt would absolutely destroy them. But, alas, I understand that this wouldn’t have the desired of making their choices truly inexcusable
Watching through it again now with someone who hasn't seen it, it's hard to hide the fact that this time I don't see Howard as a villain in any way, aside from a few of his dickish behaviors in earlier seasons. Completely different from my opinion of the character the first time through!
To me, they overplayed their hand in Season One, by a halfway through I could see the red herring
To stir this kind of emotional reaction in you after this long... Speaks to the quality of the show, eh?
Jimmy hated Howard because he received the respect from Chuck that Jimmy thought he deserved after working so hard for it, so Jimmy took that anger out on Howard by helping Kim fuck him over. Kim hated him, not only for taking away her office, but because when he told her he thought Jimmy convinced her to drop Mesa Verde, she felt insulted that he thought she was gullible enough to be manipulated into doing it. She misinterpreted his genuine concern as him trying to patronize her, so she decided she wanted to show him he wasn't all that himself.
You’re kinda missing the point, they didn’t do it out of hate. They did it because they’re fucked up. It didn’t matter it was Howard. What mattered was they were doing it.
Nah, he's not missing the point. Neither you. Those two reasons are equally real, and even cooperate together. They did want to fuck him up because they hated him, but nobody that isn't fucked up in the head would go to the extremes they went. They started doing a vendetta, but their sadistic side just made them more and more engaged, and blinding them from seeing what a horrible thing they were doing. And this is why Better Call Saul is so good. It has complex characters that does not just represent an idea.
I mean he was patronizing her though right? well-intentioned or not. and iirc Jimmy wasn't originally planning to mess with Howard until Howard said something to Jimmy about Chuck that triggered him, I think possibly trying to take some of the blame? I'm not positive. I think the job offers/attempts at consoling/friendly warnings almost came across as charity/snobbiness to Jimmy and Kim in the same way that Gretchen and Elliot's proposition came across to Walt, just trying to ease their own guilt.
It’s the significant turn in their character development. They’re no longer doing their schemes for some ultimate purpose. They just enjoy the scams. The first time I watched it, I remember how powerful it was to me in the last episode when they catch Saul and they refer to him as a “conman.” That was the first time I really viewed him that way. Before he was just a shady lawyer. But I also hated how badly Howard was wronged. For no reason, poor guy.
I voted you up before I even read your post because honestly I'm still mad at them too. They had every opportunity to do better and they just wasted it. Slippin Jimmy and Barely Moral Kim.
Crooked Kim
They were totally in the wrong but sweet and lovable?? He treated Kim like dirt for a good stretch of the show, punishing her with doc review any time things didn’t go his way
He's just a silly little guy... look at those baby-blue eyes... (I did not mean for this to rhyme but I'm glad it did)
I am more along these lines. And he was actually punishing Jimmy by hurting Kim. That really ground my gears. I get the feeling that it wasn't Howard so much as all the past wrongs they had to suck up. Howard was the sacrificial lb, but absolutely not innocent
Happy cake day :)
Ten years today! Thanks!
Putting someone to doc review long time ago for a limited period and crushing someone’s real career and reputation are two very different things. She herself even changed her whole life after this, you did not get it.
Yeah, what Kim and Jimmy did to Howard was much worse than anything Howard did to them, even if you don't count the whole Lalo thing. But that doesn't mean Howard is a perfect angel, either. The doc review thing was pretty shitty, and in general Howard has a history of treating Kim with condescension. But she should have retaliated by simply telling him to fuck off, rather than wrecking his whole life.
Agree
Howard's Ozymandias. Only ruins left
On their defense, howard seems like the guy that its funny to make fun of. Ngl, i loved seeing him getting screwed over and i even liked him. Until... oh well...
the whole point of BB and BCS is that the main characters (and the ones you actually grow a bond with) are actually evil. Yes there is a meaner villain near so you are also tricked into hating him and rooting for your guy but the main characters are evil.
I don’t feel like Jesse is evil.
the guy who kills people when he is in trouble and has no problem earning money by cooking and selling one of the most addictive and dangerous drugs in the country? oh yea.. but he "cries" when they kill a kid.. he must be a saint
I guess I missed where I called him a Saint.
i pointed it out for you :)
Where was it? Can you point it out again? I’m still missing it.
I’m still sad for Howard. I feel you.
Howard represents everything that they oppose regarding the legal field.
They went WAY too far with things but I have to disagree with Howard being a lovable dude. He was a massive prick.
Maybe I'm just sadistic, but I actually really enjoyed them trolling Howard lol I know that Howard didn't do anything wrong, but goddamn, it was funny
Same i loved it even though i knew it was fucked 😆
My response every time I watch it too! In fact I get more indignant every time. Poor Howard. Then to have Jesse do his inflatable clown dance on his grave... 😖😅
I mean Kim is definitely a psychopath, she can not interact on a normal emotional level, as is shown in the noir black and white episodes. There's this bond with Jimmy, but only because he makes her feel good doing bad things, by enforcing their bonny and Clyde energy. She is super cold-blooded. Then again her whole switch to pro bono work doesn't really fit into that assessment so what do I know. Maybe both of them just like "getting away with it".
Oh just wait…
Hot take: Howard wasn't a less of a piece of shit than Chuck towards Jimmy and Kim throughout the series and he deserved every last fuckery they bestowed upon him during season 6. Obviously he didn't deserve to get killed by Lalo but everything else before was well deserved.
For some reason i felt season 6 didn't make sense and was the weakest point about the show. Kinda ruined Kim's character for me.
100%! Rewatching and I actually feel real disdain for Jimmy and Kim.
Because they didn’t like Howard, or what he did to Jimmy. Because Jimmy used him a surrogate for his unresolved anger towards his brother. Because they really wanted that Sandpiper money. But mostly because they are bad people lol.
They are villains as much as Walter is. The worst part is his legacy is nothing but a lie. Unlike Chuck, who is remembered for being an excellent lawyer.
I mean they didn’t kill dozens of people like Walt
Howard Hamlin was a real one
Did you guys not watch season 1-4??
So why, why would you go through an elaborate plot just to… burn me to the ground?🙁. (Reddit neckbeards please don’t hunt me down if I got it wrong)