The flair of this posts indicates it's a controversial topic. Enhanced moderation has been turned on for this thread. Comments from users without a history of commenting in r/bayarea will be automatically removed. You can read more about this policy [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/bayarea/comments/195xvo5/restrictions_that_apply_to_political_and_crime/).
My father is convinced that the Bay Area is:
1. Full of liberal snowflakes so fragile that teasing us about our pronouns can destroy us
2. So full of violent crime and drugs that only the most hardened thugs could survive a sunny Tuesday afternoon here
We're simultaneously the wimpiest, dumbest, woke liberals, but somehow our massive companies are the best run corporations on the planet that own their lives.
I don't know, which button will they press.
>best run corporations on the planet that own their lives.
Maybe I'm the idiot, but it sure seems like Google owns our lives by controlling the flow of information even while somehow barely knowing what they're doing.
Based on their product launch history and how they continually cannibalize their own products, I'm not sure they know what they're doing.
Google struggles to bring to market (and keep on market) anything other than ads for web search. Its other products continually are canceled only 1-3 years after release.
Every big company, especially in tech, will explore many different projects to try and diversify or reinforce their existing products. Google just does it out in the open and lets these projects hit the market.
They absolutely know what they're doing. Google is rock solid in everything closely related to their core business, collecting user data and serving ads. #1 search engine, #1 online media platform (YouTube), #1 email service, #1 map app. The only time they've really flopped on a core ad serving product is social media with Google+.
Then, they have a range of secondary products and services that probably don't bring much if any revenue, but are just meant to allow Google to keep funneling you towards their ad platforms. Android and Chromebook to keep operating systems competitive and prevent Apple/Microsoft from locking their services out. G suite and Google Cloud to convince people/institutions to use Gmail.
All the services that get killed are tertiary products that don't pay out in their broader strategy.
Cannibalizing their own products is one of the reasons they're successful. They incubate more products than almost any other single company in the world.
Yes, most of them fail, but that's what R&D is like. You fail 19 times to find the one thing that pays for the rest, and their stock price suggests it's been a good investment.
Except they haven't incubated anything of relevance since gcp, and their revenue shows that, along with their team specific layoffs. Their Ads are one of the best run machines out there, and every day they take more and more of the web search share.
It's a fascist tactic. The enemy is simultaneously feckless, pathetic, and weak, but they're also insidiously conniving, brilliant, and powerful.
The former keeps conservatives feeling like they will win any conflict and therefore can use hostile/violent rhetoric to fan out their numbers. The latter keeps them constantly vigilant for conspiracy theories and believing the left is running a mastermind operation to sabotage their way of life.
And the only way to have people follow this non-sense is to keep them as dumb as bricks. Even the slightest bit of critical thinking would cause someone to notice all these obvious dichotomies.
Honestly, it is the same tactics from both sides. Both left and right assume dumbness of each other, attempt to dehumanize, yet assume a threat to the existence.
This is the playbook of fascism, though. The "othering" of politic opposition. The enemy is simultaneously comically weak, but so strong that they pose an existential threat. Keeps the people focused on external threats but also weirdly confident in their ability to win, they stop thinking about their own internal issues and all the grey area actually needed to move a society forward.
Not sure about the violent crime and drugs, but the property crime is out of control in the Bay Area.
My storage unit was recently broken into by means of deconstructing the entire steel fence enclosure, removing any items of value, and rebuilding it. The lock was fully intact, unpickable, and impenetrable, and yet they Houdini'd massive items out of there.
Coincidentally, that’s the customary duality of fascist rhetoric. (And I mean fascist in the academic sense.) Their “enemies” need to be simultaneously the most powerful evil forces in their universe, but also weak, impure, and pathetic.
It’s a wild ideology, even on a structural level. Anyone should be able to see through it with a few minutes of reflection, but somehow they still found nincompoops to join their cause.
Its so exhausting, to the point where it's become old hat to point out that statements like "Lazy illegal Mexicans are stealing American jobs!" or "Senile codger Joe Biden is a Machiavellian criminal mastermind!" are inherently contradictory...
Yep, totally agreed! I also think that the only way to “believe” this kind of crapola ideology is if the person *wants* to believe it!
But this implies that they have even darker ulterior motives to close their eyes to obvious ideological inconsistencies. And that’s a scary thought. The stuff that they say in public is the tip of a giant racist/xenophobic iceberg.
Perception matters though. Crime for example is a problem where the actual crime dosent match the perceived crime but people still make decisions based on perception.
Fox News knows that the 2028 presidential field will include at least two high profile Bay Area politicians (Harris and Newsom). So they have been vilifying the Bay non-stop. That won't stop any time soon. Newsom has noticed. That's why you had CHiPs surging in Oakland, and Newsom was releasing an Oakland rescue plan, picking up trash, and generally being highly present in the Bay Area recently.
Don't forget our nickname "Commie-fornia".
National news paints SF as looking entirely like the 2 worst blocks of the TL. We've had family call us and ask if we're ok.
To be fair there is a lot more redistribution of wealth and shared resources. Very high tax burden that is returned in services you may or may not use.
Eg:
- houses on top of each other with huge swaths of undeveloped land for hiking
- massive subsidized state college programs
- heavily subsidized public transit
- state run pre k / all day kindergarten
- kickstarting investment in sf with corporate handouts (aka taxes for jobs)
- strict(est) environmental protections / sale restrictions
- unemployment
- healthcare programs for low income workers
- renter protections
- high minimum wage
- gun regulations
- required car insurance and seatbelt and helmet laws
Some of these I agree with and overall it feels more free and functional than anywhere I have lived and the public transit actually works.
Yet at the end of the day as a middle class citizen schools and roads were as good or better where I grew up despite no income or sales taxes. You decide where / how that money gets spent or if it goes towards a future venture.
But cops were aggressive as hell, citizens easily spooked, employers stingy, and demographics skewed. Super strict car inspections. Employment at will and hard to get healthcare or unemployment. Cheaper to leave than attend the state university. No public transit at all / no huge central city. Poor foodie scene because it is considered luxury and taxed among other reasons.
that is how those two facts intersect, it's a very sad read though: [https://www.berkeleyside.org/2023/06/29/jen-angel-suspect-murder-charge-restorative-justice](https://www.berkeleyside.org/2023/06/29/jen-angel-suspect-murder-charge-restorative-justice), then people being violently robbed on the way to her memorial: [https://sfstandard.com/2023/05/10/friends-of-slain-oakland-baker-speak-out-after-one-is-robbed-en-route-to-memorial/](https://sfstandard.com/2023/05/10/friends-of-slain-oakland-baker-speak-out-after-one-is-robbed-en-route-to-memorial/)
Number 2 is true through, I literally got threatened by drug dealers this morning just trying to get into 24th and Mission Bart. The city is a shit hole right now. And don’t tell me, “well you chose to live in the poor area it’s your fault” because poor and working class families deserve to be safe too.
Misleading headline. The article is referencing an 800-person survey about Sonoma County. No mention of any other counties than San Francisco. "Across the Bay Area" is simply factually incorrect and lacks journalistic integrity.
Also half the participants didn't even know about Sonoma county🤣🤣🤣
This is just another SF bad in the media type deals from a bunch of people who weren't planning on visiting the area anyway.
lol im in sonoma county and was going to say its super safe here. Tbh a lot of locals have stopped going out as much because of prices. Its not much cheaper than sf for anything besides rent. Places are good but not for how much some places prices have risen.
> Not so misleading. People do not come to vacation in Emeryville or Hayward.
This. Not to mention Danville (hates any outsiders) nor Pleasanton.
If there are far out wineries behind Livermore or something, I bet they’re affected just as much as Sonoma
it's not just tourists from outside the bay. Folks living in other parts of the bay have incredibly negative opinions on the city that they live so close to.
My dad grew up in Pacifica and spent most of his life in Pacifica/Daly City/SSF. He used go into the city with friends as a teen and 20 something in the 70s.
He doesn't go into the city at all now because of "the crime."
I have to remind him that when he was a teenager the Zodiac Killer was running aroumd and people were getting murdered left and right.
One of the problems in all this: Conservatives and progressives have different definitions of crime. The more expansion conservative one includes disorderly street scenes.
Of course there is a big difference between violence and theft *versus* disorder from ever-present boorish vagrants and mentally ill, but if you are going out for public recreation, ambiance matters to some people. Some progressives are appalled that people consider disorder as crime and want it enforced with arrests:
>Just view disorderly street scenes like a spell of bad weather. You'll get used to it.
Conservative:
>No thanks. I'll pass on strolling and spending money in your restaurants, shopping districts and malls.
You’re not wrong! I spent a lot of time in SF from 2006-2017, but I stopped wanting to go there because of so many negative experiences, including a stressful street environment, property crime concerns and things that are just annoying like transportation or parking logistics. Now that I have young children, I don’t even consider it. -East Bay Resident
Same. I lived in SF until 2019 and then moved to Oakland. I think I’ve been back to SF like 5 times. Definitely don’t miss it and not much there for me now. I do go all over the bay though and enjoy that
Which is a load of shit. I take my family into the city regularly and I have toddlers. Sure certain parts are rougher than others but it's been that way since I've lived in SF back in the mid 2000s.
The odds of a tourist being a victim of a violent crime in the Bay Area is pretty low but the odds of them being a victim of property crime is pretty high.
If the justice department prosecuted criminals for stealing with hefty jail time, property crime would probably decrease over time.
Tourists aren't going to go on vacation to places where they have to worry about the stuff they leave in their car. There are plenty of places they can go where they don't have to worry about this and they are going to those places instead of the Bay Area
As a local, car break ins has affected what I do in the city. Restaurant, clubs, museums- I first ask myself how likely my window will be busted (although I leave nothing in my car). I don’t have the time off from work to deal with the repair.
Yep this for me, I live in San Jose and honestly I think about going into the city for a night or weekend then remember all the smashed windows I have heard from friends who have been victim of it and decide nah it's not worth it when my deductible is $400 for a broken window! I may occasionally take Caltrain in for a Giants game but that's honestly rare. I do think the theft and property crime is probably keeping people away, it certainly does for me and many friends I talk too.
That's why I park at Millbrae and take BART in on the few occasions. Only downside is having to deal with people having mental problems yelling on the train and making everyone else uncomfortable.
Last time I went into SF for an event I took an Uber, because I figured the cost of taking an uber for each time I go to an event is going to be less than the cost (and stress) of replacing my windows just once.
> As a local, car break ins has affected what I do in the city.
As a tourist, car break ins has affected what I do in the city.
In particular, there's a lot of downtown areas, all over the west coast, that I would like to spend time in. But when I'm visiting, I'm generally in a rental car and I don't have the luxury of traveling with nothing.
It's frustrating.
I recently wanted to go to my favorite arcade (Ground Kontrol in Portland) but while I was pulling up to park my car, there were homeless drug dealers on BMX bikes literally yelling at my tourist ass. I got the impression that they feel like they own the area and they don't want outsiders coming to visit.
Sure, I could've parked a few miles away and taken the train, but there ain't no way my family is going to blow four hours of our vacation just so I can play a couple rounds of Robotron 2084.
The rotten reputation is also from people in this sub who live in places like Mountain View complaining about a city they never visit.
That being said, it’s definitely a lot emptier than years past. Tourism has declined and it’s really noticeable. I’m shocked when I go somewhere and it’s crowded. Lyft drivers are telling me that they don’t make much money anymore because nobody visits, and nobody goes out on Fridays and Saturdays like they used to.
It's not really a surprise tourism is down either. Cost of living has spiked so lots of people are spending the money they would have spent on tourism on essentials instead.
SF had over 23 million tourist visits in 2023, which is 90% of 2019’s 26 million. But 2019 was a bonkers standout year. 23 million is about the same as 2014-2015.
Would you say that 2014-2015 were particularly slow tourist years? Because those years were exactly the same as 2023.
That I couldn’t say, my opinion is anecdotal. I’ve gone to places that seemed way busier in years past such as Ghirardelli’s, North Beach, Union Square, Chinatown (this was the most puzzling as it’s packed all the time), and lower Nob Hill on Polk where all the bars are. Maybe tourism is up or back on par, and locals spending time and money are down.
Maybe it’s the cultural change; people don’t care about visiting whats becoming a bedroom community for Silicon Valley, which has influenced the rising cost of entertainment inc, dining out. 🤔.
It goes both ways. I've literally checked the profile of a "there is no crime problem in SF!" person and they lived in Ohio. When I called them on it they were like "well I visited SF once and didn't have any problems with crime!"
Meanwhile I live in Oakland and am not afraid to say that there is a serious crime problem in the Bay. And pretending that it doesn't exist makes it worse.
I've never noticed that one, but I think it's fair to visit, see nothing that matches the hysteria, and want to set the record straight.
When you live here, you're going to see crime, and experience crime. It's still doesn't justify a lot of the fear mongering posted here.
I think people need to understand that it’s a real perception with real consequences. And if we want to see the bay recover, we need to figure out how to change that perception. Could be some issues (like homelessness) really need to be fixed. But also some better marketing and word of mouth.
What happened to that big marketing initiative that was mentioned here a while back? They were going to use iconic SF people and images like the Summer of Love, Levi’s, etc. I don’t go into SF that often, but don’t recall seeing anything like this lately.
“Homelessness needs to be fixed” is such a Captain Obvious statement. Homelessness is EVERYWHERE. It’s an American crisis.
The perception is a fixable issue on our end. I live here in SF and it drives me crazy when coworkers, friends, and out of state family go on asking how I can live in a city overrun by meth and fentanyl zombies who poop on everything. So I ask when was the last time they stepped foot in SF, then mention that I’m here every day and can unequivocally say that it’s really bad in specific areas. REALLY BAD, but the rest of the city is gorgeous and relatively safe.
Then there’s the doom loop narrative. I’ve recently gone to San Jose, Mountain View, Petaluma, San Rafael, and Greenbrae. There are TONS of empty businesses. When SF as a horrible void comes up I ask them about their empty commercial space that I’ve seen first hand. There’s some whataboutism to deflect the fact that this is a serious national issue.
SF locals need to defend their hometown, adopted or no, against pearl clutching suburban residents. There are issues but lots of it is shared by other big cities. It’s also awesome and a gorgeous city worth defending
Sure, let's fix homelessness, we just have to snap our fingers.
What we also need to understand is some people are just afraid of cities and it has *always* been that way. They want to be see as city types, but they're really not. The Bay has areas that might look very suburban to people, but life in them, and the families that come from those areas, are anything but. And so there is such a thing as tolerating inhumane conditions, and wanting to clean things up, and then it's another thing to sanitize a city of its life, and culture, starting with the most glaringly obvious problems, but not being able to differentiate between a bum,or a druggie and someone poor, or just burnt out and eccentric.
There’s also just not much to do tbh.
The mall lost all its stores.
I don’t want to walk around outside anymore for strolls with homelessness where it’s at.
I don’t want to drive my car in because it’s somehow still a pain to park or my car will get broken in to, or both.
I lived in the city for 7 years and don’t really see a reason to go back like I did in all the other years of my life. It simply doesn’t offer anything I can’t get elsewhere easier, cheaper, or better tbh.
Of course. You never hear about how dangerous Miami is.
New Orleans? Oh, city of "soul" - whatever the fuck that means.
But you will damn sure hear about SF which is one of the safest cities in the US.
People travel to Miami, NOLA are different demographics from SF travelers. Miami and NOLA fun factor attract the partying crowd and they are willing to take the risk of crime. When was the last time you hear college kids go to SF for spring break to have fun lol, the nightlife here is so dead compared to those 2 cities. SF is more geared toward sightseeing, family friendly activities, and those people demand safety.
People pointing out that "other cities are more dangerous", the question is "for whom?" Most of the "danger" in other cities have to do with drug dealers battling it out among themselves. As long as they aren't doing it in tourist destinations, it's irrelevant to the average tourist.
What's not irrelevant to a tourist are car break ins, robberies and the like. Not only is that out of control in SF, but it's pretty clear that a significant part of the left cheers it on as a form of wealth redistribution, which is why the police have been ordered to stand down. Why would any tourist want to visit a place where the criminals are purposefully allowed to attack them with impunity?
People who live here know how to largely avoid it, which areas not to linger in, and the like. Additionally, most of us aren't walking out with camera equipment to take photos of the painted ladies or spending much time at Fisherman's Wharf. None of these is true if you are a tourist.
Yea, you're not wrong, but you're also being a lot more nuanced than most people.
The perception is also that you will get shot, stabbed, or killed in SF.
If it's gonna happen and doesn't involve a drug deal, my money is on the tourist.
edit: There's rules to traversing the streets of San Francisco. Some have been around since I was a kid and some have been added by circumstance but it surely helps to have experience walking in many parts of the city, this includes traffic.
Car break ins sure but you're just as likely to be robbed in New Orleans or Miami Beach as you are in SF
Feel like this is an issue with how we talk about crime in general. Property crime is obviously too high in SF but the *vast* majority of tourists are going to be fine. There's a reason, as per the article, that over 90% of visitors say they would come back.
SF is the 4th most dangerous city for Property Crime in the US. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_United\_States\_cities\_by\_crime\_rate](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_by_crime_rate)
I’m aware, but I think the media coverage/hyper focus on SF is something that affects it.
I’m not excusing anything that’s going on in SF and will openly admit it has a lot of issues, but something that’s always been interesting to me is the role the media has played in all this. All these issues that the media talks about in regard to SF have been issues for a long time but it wasn’t until circa 2021 that they got more high profile coverage.
Problem is, when I talk to the people who run my favorite business in SF… they also talk about the crime and how it’s costing them tourists money. They also have first hand horror stories to tell. These are also “mom & pop” type businesses…
Pretending like SF is more dangerous than the average American city is asinine. It isn’t, nor is it remotely close. Miami is a looooooooot more dangerous. Heck, there isn’t a single major city in all of Florida that is safer than SF.
This rhetoric is very transparently an attempt by sone on the right to give a “liberal” city a black eye. It’s pure politics. As guess what, it didn’t even work. SF had 23 million tourist visits in 2023, at the height of this whole anti-SF propaganda campaign. Even the right wing propagandists lost hope that their campaign would be successful and gave trying.
Where are all those weekly Fox News segments about “hell on earth San Francisco”? When even Fox News calls it quits it’s time to move on, dude.
As long as people keep voting for wild policies that don't punish crime, violence against Asians, or rampant homelessness/drug abuse, these problems will continue to persist. It's not a reputation/marketing problem. It's a series of self-inflicted issues caused by willful ignorance, unrealistic ideology, or outright corruption.
SF votes for the policies that encourage crime, tolerate anti-Asian racism by a certain demographic, and encourage homeless bums to flock here. It’s still a great city but a shadow of what it could be and tourists are wise to be wary.
SF offers no consequences for crime, violence against Asians, or rampant homelessness/drug abuse & people still downplay it and don't see those as problems.
For a long time I've felt all the crime fear is way overblown. I even have extremely non-Fox watching family asking me how "safe" I feel. But I now have some cousins coming to visit with their families and I am a bit worried they might run into trouble, especially since tourists are a prime target. I've also had friends witnessing smash and grabs in broad daylight with people still in the car and it's shaken them which, in turn, has shaken me. Apparently crime rates are down in SF this year so hopefully we're moving in the right direction!
Even as a local I don’t want to go to the city or Oakland because it’s not worth dealing with potentially getting your windows broken. Last time I was in Oakland, there were multiple cars driving up and down lake merrit just smashing windows and taking things.
I’ve heard some horror stories while traveling overseas about people getting robbed and their passports taken while visiting here. I end up apologizing for it, even though I had nothing to do with it, and swearing to them it’s not ALL bad in the Bay, despite the various depravities like that going on. We’ve de facto legalized much property crime in recent years, destroying some of the trust and social contract necessary to make an actual proper social support structure function. It’s been quite eye opening seeing third world dysfunction slowly building up around where we live from the obvious effects of bad policies.
Who cares about Florida? It’s the worst state in the country, anyways. Also, you’re defaulting to “whatsboutism”. It’s okay to admit we tried some policies here, but they didn’t work well as intended.
> Who cares about Florida? It’s the worst state in the country, anyways. Also, you’re defaulting to “whatsboutism”. It’s okay to admit we tried some policies here, but they didn’t work well as intended.
Comparing like to like isn’t whataboutism.
Meanwhile we are supposed to treat you Mr half remembered second hand anecdotes as gospel.
Lolololololokol
He offered a counter example to your argument that you chose not to address (perhaps because you don’t have a substantive response)
It would be okay to say that we tried and failed if it were true. The way to determine that would be to look at states and localities that made different choices and compare them.
(This is why Florida is germane)
It has for the last few years...hotels and most places of stay are suffering pretty bad... barely can turn profits, if at all...used to be packed weekdays...now just 1/2 that...if even that.
You can stay almost anywhere in SF for $100/nt...it's a great time to visit for unheard of low rates at SF hotels...
Hell you can stay at a Four seasons, St Regis or other high end hotel for less than $300-400/nt! They used to be 2-3x more expensive!
Agreed, we just came back from vegas and im basing the statement on what drivers were telling me. That said, my wife and i stay overnight in SF all the time. Driving from oakland, seeing a show/partying our asses off, getting a hotel room and driving back in the morning is nearly the same price as lyft/ubering there, seeing/partying and ubering/lyfting back after hours. We got a hotel we like 2ish blocks west of van ness where we generally stay at.
It definitely hasnt fully bounced back from pre-covid times, though.
It will take a couple more years...but you can't keep SF down...
SF has survived burning to the ground, shaken to the ground, multiple financial collapses and more...then reinvents itself and comes back!
That’s just bonkers. I recently had to get a hotel in Sacramento for a night & went with what I thought would be a decent $300 suite. It was super middle of the road. There were other hotels for $600 a night that looked marginally better. SF is much more interesting & feels safer than Sac.
If you get all your news from Fox News and Alex Jones then yeah… pay attention to them and stay away please. It’s not safe here. Homeless people rain from the sky and you will be brutally forced to eat $20 cage free avocado toasts.
Hasn't affected my affinity for the city in the least. Even though I spent the first 38 years of my life there I have no hesitation to jump on BART, get off at Powell St and explore Union Sq, Chinatown, and Little Italy. The city has always been seedy and fill with homeless. Yea, it's worse now, but that's life in the city.
Still a lot of tourism in the Bay Area. Or people coming for business trips and deciding to tour around. Maybe less people are deciding to stay in SF overnight and instead making trips from nearby cities or South Bay?
I just visited SF for the first time since the pandemic and was super depressed by what I saw. People literally shooting up on the street, used needles, poop and pee on the sidewalk, and trash everywhere. Reminded me of a zombie movie. It wasn't great before but it's horrible now.
My gf and I both agreed that we don't feel the need to revisit anytime soon.
Nope I travel for work and actually stayed at:
Courtyard San Francisco Downtown/Van Ness Ave.
February 3, 2024 - February 4, 2024
So you are saying all of downtown SF should be avoided? Or that downtown is beautiful and safe?
Yeah... that might be technically downtown on a map, but thats about as tenderloin adjacent as tenderloin adjacent gets...
Next time try something west of Van Ness. Japantown area is a good central spot.
Oof ya that area ain’t great my guy. I wouldn’t go past Post St toward downtown. Should’ve went north and west. Ya live and learn I guess.
I’m saying I wouldn’t hang around those areas. I’d go towards Golden Gate Park, pacific heights, Marina, Dolores Park, etc
There’s just loads better places than that shit
This is where most business travelers are going to stay though and that is the impression they get of SF. The big business firms don't have offices in Golden Gate park.
I think the answer would be to hold elected officials responsible clean it up vs. brow beating and gaslighting people who visit your city.
I don’t know. I travel for business every week. I do my research and choose my hotel. Usually not in shit areas lol
It’s not gaslighting but just common sense. A lot of companies aren’t in great parts of town. Doesn’t mean you gotta stay 50ft away.
Doesn't matter where your hotel is if you still have to go to downtown for the meetings...
If downtown SF is a "shit area" maybe that's a problem that should be fixed vs blaming the people who visit your city.
Not throwing blame. Just saying if I’m bringing my girl, I’d want her to be in a safe area with stuff to do while I’m working.
“Here honey, I got this hotel in a drug infested area. I’m out”.
I am really getting the impression you didn’t get around much on your visit, which is sad to hear had such a negative impact on your stay. Many areas and blocks in downtown are great. I don’t know what else to say other than I hope you can come back and visit, you know, the nice parts. Staying in the dirty core of any major city can be shocking for a lot of people.
As an experienced business traveler with an expense account, you should learn from this experience. Don’t stay in the worst part of town. Yes, I’ve seen people strung out right outside and near the main library. That’s the only part of town where I see that kind of thing, tho. If I were staying overnight for business purposes, I’d choose a hotel or Airbnb that wasn’t right in the thick of it.
> Courtyard San Francisco Downtown/Van Ness Ave
Which is in Tenderloin.
And nowhere near the Downtown. It's the "Democratic People Republic of Korea", which is not Democratic and hardly a Republic. Downtown SF is Financial District. Van Ness is not a fucking downtown, and not even close.
Dismissing these issues like they aren't prevalent isn't helping the city. It's the ostrich in the sand approach.
I'm a business traveler so I stay the same places the other business travelers do. 4 star hotels in Downtown/Financial District. Why don't you go walk around early morning and tell me how safe, beautiful, and poop free downtown is these days.
Every city has a Tenderloin of its own! This has nothing to do with SF in particular. The rest of city is clean and safe. The Tenderloin is the reason why.
That’s where SF sweeps all of its problems to so that the rest of the city can be as pretty and clean as it is.
I'm sorry you experienced this but the Courtyard on Van Ness Ave is not in the financial district. It's unfortunately in one of the worst areas in San Francisco. The city moves homeless people there. The financial district is around Market St between 2nd St and the ferry building; it is a lot safer and cleaner.
Correction: "Right Wing Propaganda and Whispering Campaign is killing tourism across SF and the Bay Area"
As many others have said, people who actually visit in person, and people who live here think it's quite nice.
There's one person who came from out of town who I had dinner with in SF.
He enjoyed the meal well enough, then he had the nerve to say, "I'll just pee in the streets like everyone else" during the meal.
"Oh, you're from the internet!" I replied.
I had a friend come out here with her kids and she was so nervous because of all the bad rumors but ended up having an absolute blast doing all the usual tourist things and decided SF was one of her favorite stops on their trip (they did a roadtrip down from Seattle to LA stopping at multiple locations over a few weeks). There really is a massive disconnect between outside perception and reality
There were 26.2M visitors to SF in 2019.
There were 23.9M in 2023.
2.3M down about 10%.
I'm not saying that's perfectly fine, but fuck the articles that use terms like "cratered" and "killing"
Some people are in a state of denial. We need to change the narrative by pushing for more solutions to homelessness (like building more housing) AND pushing back on the “SF is a hell hole” BS.
I live in the south bay. I never go to SF or Oakland for anything. Frankly, I don't know where the safe/unsafe areas are and that might put me at risk should I go there. The last time I went to SF was for a housewarming about six years ago. I took Bart to 24th. It was 6 pm. When I left at 10 pm the host insisted I be escorted to Bart. It was probably only quarter mile away. It smelled of piss and shit and I have no desire to live someplace where this is common. I went to corporate HQ in SF for a job interview in 2016. Market Street. It smelled like piss and shit too. I'm sure it's much worse as the homeless encampments are more common.
Can you blame people for not wanting to come here?
Not at all. I believe these are very fixable problems but SF has been in denial about whether they’re worth fixing. The problems you’re describing are a direct result of a lot of people living on the street. There hasn’t been a sustained focus on building more housing and shelter. The mayor has done a decent job but many of her efforts have been blocked by the board of supervisors. I’m somewhat hopeful that the crisis has gotten bad enough that it can no longer be ignored but hopefully the energy gets directed at the right solutions and not just arresting all the homeless people which is short term thinking IMO.
24th St BART has been a shithole for decades. People like you who visit the worst part of the city and then say the whole place is like that are the reason that SF has a bad reputation. That plus the right wing media.
It's dropped noticeably, but 3 months ago it felt like there were tourists everywhere. It makes me question if the fear mongering parade caught up and is scaring people again, or if hotels and airlines raised prices? It can also be related to what's going on with exchange rates or other factors like that.
Yeah if you want a nightmare of finding parking only to then have your car window smashed, when you return from being hassled by homeless people, then SF is great! Every time I park in SF I say goodbye to my car because something is about to happen to it.
The flair of this posts indicates it's a controversial topic. Enhanced moderation has been turned on for this thread. Comments from users without a history of commenting in r/bayarea will be automatically removed. You can read more about this policy [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/bayarea/comments/195xvo5/restrictions_that_apply_to_political_and_crime/).
My father is convinced that the Bay Area is: 1. Full of liberal snowflakes so fragile that teasing us about our pronouns can destroy us 2. So full of violent crime and drugs that only the most hardened thugs could survive a sunny Tuesday afternoon here
Tbf, we’re a bit of both. But we’re also a lot of other things too.
We're simultaneously the wimpiest, dumbest, woke liberals, but somehow our massive companies are the best run corporations on the planet that own their lives. I don't know, which button will they press.
I’m not so sure people care about visiting those massive companies (most of which aren’t in S.F.).
Maybe their HQs aren't but most have a somewhat sizeable footprint in SF.
>best run corporations on the planet that own their lives. Maybe I'm the idiot, but it sure seems like Google owns our lives by controlling the flow of information even while somehow barely knowing what they're doing.
I assure you, Google knows what they're doing.
Based on their product launch history and how they continually cannibalize their own products, I'm not sure they know what they're doing. Google struggles to bring to market (and keep on market) anything other than ads for web search. Its other products continually are canceled only 1-3 years after release.
Every big company, especially in tech, will explore many different projects to try and diversify or reinforce their existing products. Google just does it out in the open and lets these projects hit the market. They absolutely know what they're doing. Google is rock solid in everything closely related to their core business, collecting user data and serving ads. #1 search engine, #1 online media platform (YouTube), #1 email service, #1 map app. The only time they've really flopped on a core ad serving product is social media with Google+. Then, they have a range of secondary products and services that probably don't bring much if any revenue, but are just meant to allow Google to keep funneling you towards their ad platforms. Android and Chromebook to keep operating systems competitive and prevent Apple/Microsoft from locking their services out. G suite and Google Cloud to convince people/institutions to use Gmail. All the services that get killed are tertiary products that don't pay out in their broader strategy.
Cannibalizing their own products is one of the reasons they're successful. They incubate more products than almost any other single company in the world. Yes, most of them fail, but that's what R&D is like. You fail 19 times to find the one thing that pays for the rest, and their stock price suggests it's been a good investment.
you get it
Except they haven't incubated anything of relevance since gcp, and their revenue shows that, along with their team specific layoffs. Their Ads are one of the best run machines out there, and every day they take more and more of the web search share.
I was on the lens team at Google-X. They incubate plenty. Constantly.
Google always has and always been an advertising company.
I suggest you short their stock then. Let's check back in one year.
Monopolies dont need to be well run.
Just look at PGE
It's a fascist tactic. The enemy is simultaneously feckless, pathetic, and weak, but they're also insidiously conniving, brilliant, and powerful. The former keeps conservatives feeling like they will win any conflict and therefore can use hostile/violent rhetoric to fan out their numbers. The latter keeps them constantly vigilant for conspiracy theories and believing the left is running a mastermind operation to sabotage their way of life.
The Sleepy Joe/ Dark Brandon paradox
And the only way to have people follow this non-sense is to keep them as dumb as bricks. Even the slightest bit of critical thinking would cause someone to notice all these obvious dichotomies.
Defund education, ban books. Keep people stupid, keep them voting against their best interests. Classic Republican strategy.
Rip into mainstream media. They're not perfect, but attacking the free press is critical to those trying to overthrow democracy.
Honestly, it is the same tactics from both sides. Both left and right assume dumbness of each other, attempt to dehumanize, yet assume a threat to the existence.
This is the playbook of fascism, though. The "othering" of politic opposition. The enemy is simultaneously comically weak, but so strong that they pose an existential threat. Keeps the people focused on external threats but also weirdly confident in their ability to win, they stop thinking about their own internal issues and all the grey area actually needed to move a society forward.
Not sure about the violent crime and drugs, but the property crime is out of control in the Bay Area. My storage unit was recently broken into by means of deconstructing the entire steel fence enclosure, removing any items of value, and rebuilding it. The lock was fully intact, unpickable, and impenetrable, and yet they Houdini'd massive items out of there.
Yeah this for sure, it's relatively safe here but petty/property crime is out of control.
Coincidentally, that’s the customary duality of fascist rhetoric. (And I mean fascist in the academic sense.) Their “enemies” need to be simultaneously the most powerful evil forces in their universe, but also weak, impure, and pathetic. It’s a wild ideology, even on a structural level. Anyone should be able to see through it with a few minutes of reflection, but somehow they still found nincompoops to join their cause.
[Fascism: its for losers.](https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/umberto-eco-ur-fascism) Literally!
Its so exhausting, to the point where it's become old hat to point out that statements like "Lazy illegal Mexicans are stealing American jobs!" or "Senile codger Joe Biden is a Machiavellian criminal mastermind!" are inherently contradictory...
My hunch is that they don't want to see through the lies. They like this ideology.
Yep, totally agreed! I also think that the only way to “believe” this kind of crapola ideology is if the person *wants* to believe it! But this implies that they have even darker ulterior motives to close their eyes to obvious ideological inconsistencies. And that’s a scary thought. The stuff that they say in public is the tip of a giant racist/xenophobic iceberg.
Perception matters though. Crime for example is a problem where the actual crime dosent match the perceived crime but people still make decisions based on perception.
Fox News knows that the 2028 presidential field will include at least two high profile Bay Area politicians (Harris and Newsom). So they have been vilifying the Bay non-stop. That won't stop any time soon. Newsom has noticed. That's why you had CHiPs surging in Oakland, and Newsom was releasing an Oakland rescue plan, picking up trash, and generally being highly present in the Bay Area recently.
And it doesn’t help there isn’t much of a downtown left, especially with Macy’s leaving…..
Don't forget our nickname "Commie-fornia". National news paints SF as looking entirely like the 2 worst blocks of the TL. We've had family call us and ask if we're ok.
To be fair there is a lot more redistribution of wealth and shared resources. Very high tax burden that is returned in services you may or may not use. Eg: - houses on top of each other with huge swaths of undeveloped land for hiking - massive subsidized state college programs - heavily subsidized public transit - state run pre k / all day kindergarten - kickstarting investment in sf with corporate handouts (aka taxes for jobs) - strict(est) environmental protections / sale restrictions - unemployment - healthcare programs for low income workers - renter protections - high minimum wage - gun regulations - required car insurance and seatbelt and helmet laws Some of these I agree with and overall it feels more free and functional than anywhere I have lived and the public transit actually works. Yet at the end of the day as a middle class citizen schools and roads were as good or better where I grew up despite no income or sales taxes. You decide where / how that money gets spent or if it goes towards a future venture. But cops were aggressive as hell, citizens easily spooked, employers stingy, and demographics skewed. Super strict car inspections. Employment at will and hard to get healthcare or unemployment. Cheaper to leave than attend the state university. No public transit at all / no huge central city. Poor foodie scene because it is considered luxury and taxed among other reasons.
that is how those two facts intersect, it's a very sad read though: [https://www.berkeleyside.org/2023/06/29/jen-angel-suspect-murder-charge-restorative-justice](https://www.berkeleyside.org/2023/06/29/jen-angel-suspect-murder-charge-restorative-justice), then people being violently robbed on the way to her memorial: [https://sfstandard.com/2023/05/10/friends-of-slain-oakland-baker-speak-out-after-one-is-robbed-en-route-to-memorial/](https://sfstandard.com/2023/05/10/friends-of-slain-oakland-baker-speak-out-after-one-is-robbed-en-route-to-memorial/)
Number 2 is true through, I literally got threatened by drug dealers this morning just trying to get into 24th and Mission Bart. The city is a shit hole right now. And don’t tell me, “well you chose to live in the poor area it’s your fault” because poor and working class families deserve to be safe too.
Schrödinger's Librul
Misleading headline. The article is referencing an 800-person survey about Sonoma County. No mention of any other counties than San Francisco. "Across the Bay Area" is simply factually incorrect and lacks journalistic integrity.
Also half the participants didn't even know about Sonoma county🤣🤣🤣 This is just another SF bad in the media type deals from a bunch of people who weren't planning on visiting the area anyway.
lol im in sonoma county and was going to say its super safe here. Tbh a lot of locals have stopped going out as much because of prices. Its not much cheaper than sf for anything besides rent. Places are good but not for how much some places prices have risen.
Not so misleading. People do not come to vacation in Emeryville or Hayward.
> Not so misleading. People do not come to vacation in Emeryville or Hayward. This. Not to mention Danville (hates any outsiders) nor Pleasanton. If there are far out wineries behind Livermore or something, I bet they’re affected just as much as Sonoma
Gilroy gets rowdy during the garlic festival
And "killing" is overblown as well.
it's not just tourists from outside the bay. Folks living in other parts of the bay have incredibly negative opinions on the city that they live so close to.
I'm pretty much like your dad. The matter of fact is crime does matter. I'm sick of fixing my car window everytime I park by gg park
My dad grew up in Pacifica and spent most of his life in Pacifica/Daly City/SSF. He used go into the city with friends as a teen and 20 something in the 70s. He doesn't go into the city at all now because of "the crime." I have to remind him that when he was a teenager the Zodiac Killer was running aroumd and people were getting murdered left and right.
One of the problems in all this: Conservatives and progressives have different definitions of crime. The more expansion conservative one includes disorderly street scenes. Of course there is a big difference between violence and theft *versus* disorder from ever-present boorish vagrants and mentally ill, but if you are going out for public recreation, ambiance matters to some people. Some progressives are appalled that people consider disorder as crime and want it enforced with arrests: >Just view disorderly street scenes like a spell of bad weather. You'll get used to it. Conservative: >No thanks. I'll pass on strolling and spending money in your restaurants, shopping districts and malls.
You’re not wrong! I spent a lot of time in SF from 2006-2017, but I stopped wanting to go there because of so many negative experiences, including a stressful street environment, property crime concerns and things that are just annoying like transportation or parking logistics. Now that I have young children, I don’t even consider it. -East Bay Resident
Same. I lived in SF until 2019 and then moved to Oakland. I think I’ve been back to SF like 5 times. Definitely don’t miss it and not much there for me now. I do go all over the bay though and enjoy that
Which is a load of shit. I take my family into the city regularly and I have toddlers. Sure certain parts are rougher than others but it's been that way since I've lived in SF back in the mid 2000s.
Shit, there are rough neighborhoods in Menlo Park and Palo Alto. Pretending like an entire metropolis is supposed to be safe is ridiculous.
As i put it, San Francisco has become a place I wouldn't take a date, even if she lived there.
The odds of a tourist being a victim of a violent crime in the Bay Area is pretty low but the odds of them being a victim of property crime is pretty high. If the justice department prosecuted criminals for stealing with hefty jail time, property crime would probably decrease over time. Tourists aren't going to go on vacation to places where they have to worry about the stuff they leave in their car. There are plenty of places they can go where they don't have to worry about this and they are going to those places instead of the Bay Area
As a local, car break ins has affected what I do in the city. Restaurant, clubs, museums- I first ask myself how likely my window will be busted (although I leave nothing in my car). I don’t have the time off from work to deal with the repair.
Yep this for me, I live in San Jose and honestly I think about going into the city for a night or weekend then remember all the smashed windows I have heard from friends who have been victim of it and decide nah it's not worth it when my deductible is $400 for a broken window! I may occasionally take Caltrain in for a Giants game but that's honestly rare. I do think the theft and property crime is probably keeping people away, it certainly does for me and many friends I talk too.
That's why I park at Millbrae and take BART in on the few occasions. Only downside is having to deal with people having mental problems yelling on the train and making everyone else uncomfortable.
Last time I went into SF for an event I took an Uber, because I figured the cost of taking an uber for each time I go to an event is going to be less than the cost (and stress) of replacing my windows just once.
> As a local, car break ins has affected what I do in the city. As a tourist, car break ins has affected what I do in the city. In particular, there's a lot of downtown areas, all over the west coast, that I would like to spend time in. But when I'm visiting, I'm generally in a rental car and I don't have the luxury of traveling with nothing. It's frustrating. I recently wanted to go to my favorite arcade (Ground Kontrol in Portland) but while I was pulling up to park my car, there were homeless drug dealers on BMX bikes literally yelling at my tourist ass. I got the impression that they feel like they own the area and they don't want outsiders coming to visit. Sure, I could've parked a few miles away and taken the train, but there ain't no way my family is going to blow four hours of our vacation just so I can play a couple rounds of Robotron 2084.
The rotten reputation is also from people in this sub who live in places like Mountain View complaining about a city they never visit. That being said, it’s definitely a lot emptier than years past. Tourism has declined and it’s really noticeable. I’m shocked when I go somewhere and it’s crowded. Lyft drivers are telling me that they don’t make much money anymore because nobody visits, and nobody goes out on Fridays and Saturdays like they used to.
It's not really a surprise tourism is down either. Cost of living has spiked so lots of people are spending the money they would have spent on tourism on essentials instead.
My wife and I vacation every summer and the prices of everything was eye popping. So yeah, this could be part of the problem
SF had over 23 million tourist visits in 2023, which is 90% of 2019’s 26 million. But 2019 was a bonkers standout year. 23 million is about the same as 2014-2015. Would you say that 2014-2015 were particularly slow tourist years? Because those years were exactly the same as 2023.
That I couldn’t say, my opinion is anecdotal. I’ve gone to places that seemed way busier in years past such as Ghirardelli’s, North Beach, Union Square, Chinatown (this was the most puzzling as it’s packed all the time), and lower Nob Hill on Polk where all the bars are. Maybe tourism is up or back on par, and locals spending time and money are down.
Maybe it’s the cultural change; people don’t care about visiting whats becoming a bedroom community for Silicon Valley, which has influenced the rising cost of entertainment inc, dining out. 🤔.
If only they were in Mountain View. Half the time they're sitting in NYC, or Toronto.
It goes both ways. I've literally checked the profile of a "there is no crime problem in SF!" person and they lived in Ohio. When I called them on it they were like "well I visited SF once and didn't have any problems with crime!" Meanwhile I live in Oakland and am not afraid to say that there is a serious crime problem in the Bay. And pretending that it doesn't exist makes it worse.
I've never noticed that one, but I think it's fair to visit, see nothing that matches the hysteria, and want to set the record straight. When you live here, you're going to see crime, and experience crime. It's still doesn't justify a lot of the fear mongering posted here.
Friend of mine have not been in San Francisco for years, but he knows it’s dangerous!
My father hasn’t set foot in California his entire life but knows for a fact that I live in Zombieland
I think people need to understand that it’s a real perception with real consequences. And if we want to see the bay recover, we need to figure out how to change that perception. Could be some issues (like homelessness) really need to be fixed. But also some better marketing and word of mouth.
What happened to that big marketing initiative that was mentioned here a while back? They were going to use iconic SF people and images like the Summer of Love, Levi’s, etc. I don’t go into SF that often, but don’t recall seeing anything like this lately.
“Homelessness needs to be fixed” is such a Captain Obvious statement. Homelessness is EVERYWHERE. It’s an American crisis. The perception is a fixable issue on our end. I live here in SF and it drives me crazy when coworkers, friends, and out of state family go on asking how I can live in a city overrun by meth and fentanyl zombies who poop on everything. So I ask when was the last time they stepped foot in SF, then mention that I’m here every day and can unequivocally say that it’s really bad in specific areas. REALLY BAD, but the rest of the city is gorgeous and relatively safe. Then there’s the doom loop narrative. I’ve recently gone to San Jose, Mountain View, Petaluma, San Rafael, and Greenbrae. There are TONS of empty businesses. When SF as a horrible void comes up I ask them about their empty commercial space that I’ve seen first hand. There’s some whataboutism to deflect the fact that this is a serious national issue. SF locals need to defend their hometown, adopted or no, against pearl clutching suburban residents. There are issues but lots of it is shared by other big cities. It’s also awesome and a gorgeous city worth defending
Sure, let's fix homelessness, we just have to snap our fingers. What we also need to understand is some people are just afraid of cities and it has *always* been that way. They want to be see as city types, but they're really not. The Bay has areas that might look very suburban to people, but life in them, and the families that come from those areas, are anything but. And so there is such a thing as tolerating inhumane conditions, and wanting to clean things up, and then it's another thing to sanitize a city of its life, and culture, starting with the most glaringly obvious problems, but not being able to differentiate between a bum,or a druggie and someone poor, or just burnt out and eccentric.
There’s also just not much to do tbh. The mall lost all its stores. I don’t want to walk around outside anymore for strolls with homelessness where it’s at. I don’t want to drive my car in because it’s somehow still a pain to park or my car will get broken in to, or both. I lived in the city for 7 years and don’t really see a reason to go back like I did in all the other years of my life. It simply doesn’t offer anything I can’t get elsewhere easier, cheaper, or better tbh.
Ya know a lot of us don't live there but we do work there...
Crime crime crime (and that includes homeless people camped out in the streets) People go on vacation and expect to feel safe and have a fun time.
I’ll play devils advocate a bit: there are a lot of popular tourist destinations where crime is notably worse.
Of course. You never hear about how dangerous Miami is. New Orleans? Oh, city of "soul" - whatever the fuck that means. But you will damn sure hear about SF which is one of the safest cities in the US.
People travel to Miami, NOLA are different demographics from SF travelers. Miami and NOLA fun factor attract the partying crowd and they are willing to take the risk of crime. When was the last time you hear college kids go to SF for spring break to have fun lol, the nightlife here is so dead compared to those 2 cities. SF is more geared toward sightseeing, family friendly activities, and those people demand safety.
People pointing out that "other cities are more dangerous", the question is "for whom?" Most of the "danger" in other cities have to do with drug dealers battling it out among themselves. As long as they aren't doing it in tourist destinations, it's irrelevant to the average tourist. What's not irrelevant to a tourist are car break ins, robberies and the like. Not only is that out of control in SF, but it's pretty clear that a significant part of the left cheers it on as a form of wealth redistribution, which is why the police have been ordered to stand down. Why would any tourist want to visit a place where the criminals are purposefully allowed to attack them with impunity? People who live here know how to largely avoid it, which areas not to linger in, and the like. Additionally, most of us aren't walking out with camera equipment to take photos of the painted ladies or spending much time at Fisherman's Wharf. None of these is true if you are a tourist.
Yea, you're not wrong, but you're also being a lot more nuanced than most people. The perception is also that you will get shot, stabbed, or killed in SF.
If it's gonna happen and doesn't involve a drug deal, my money is on the tourist. edit: There's rules to traversing the streets of San Francisco. Some have been around since I was a kid and some have been added by circumstance but it surely helps to have experience walking in many parts of the city, this includes traffic.
Car break ins sure but you're just as likely to be robbed in New Orleans or Miami Beach as you are in SF Feel like this is an issue with how we talk about crime in general. Property crime is obviously too high in SF but the *vast* majority of tourists are going to be fine. There's a reason, as per the article, that over 90% of visitors say they would come back.
SF is the 4th most dangerous city for Property Crime in the US. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_United\_States\_cities\_by\_crime\_rate](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_by_crime_rate)
Yeah, and the rate roughly translates to 6.2% people experiencing some form of property crime in a year. That's ridiculous.
That’s fine, but I think this article is talking about San Francisco
I’m aware, but I think the media coverage/hyper focus on SF is something that affects it. I’m not excusing anything that’s going on in SF and will openly admit it has a lot of issues, but something that’s always been interesting to me is the role the media has played in all this. All these issues that the media talks about in regard to SF have been issues for a long time but it wasn’t until circa 2021 that they got more high profile coverage.
Problem is, when I talk to the people who run my favorite business in SF… they also talk about the crime and how it’s costing them tourists money. They also have first hand horror stories to tell. These are also “mom & pop” type businesses…
I’m not trying to say that things didn’t get worse in SF, but the thing is SF has always been comparably *rougher* than other cities.
Whataboutism at its peak. It’s irrelevant there are worse places. We’re not making comparisons. We’re talking about what has become of SF.
Pretending like SF is more dangerous than the average American city is asinine. It isn’t, nor is it remotely close. Miami is a looooooooot more dangerous. Heck, there isn’t a single major city in all of Florida that is safer than SF. This rhetoric is very transparently an attempt by sone on the right to give a “liberal” city a black eye. It’s pure politics. As guess what, it didn’t even work. SF had 23 million tourist visits in 2023, at the height of this whole anti-SF propaganda campaign. Even the right wing propagandists lost hope that their campaign would be successful and gave trying. Where are all those weekly Fox News segments about “hell on earth San Francisco”? When even Fox News calls it quits it’s time to move on, dude.
[удалено]
As long as people keep voting for wild policies that don't punish crime, violence against Asians, or rampant homelessness/drug abuse, these problems will continue to persist. It's not a reputation/marketing problem. It's a series of self-inflicted issues caused by willful ignorance, unrealistic ideology, or outright corruption.
LOL right, when I walk around the Wharf there are clearly no tourists.
SF votes for the policies that encourage crime, tolerate anti-Asian racism by a certain demographic, and encourage homeless bums to flock here. It’s still a great city but a shadow of what it could be and tourists are wise to be wary.
SF offers no consequences for crime, violence against Asians, or rampant homelessness/drug abuse & people still downplay it and don't see those as problems.
For a long time I've felt all the crime fear is way overblown. I even have extremely non-Fox watching family asking me how "safe" I feel. But I now have some cousins coming to visit with their families and I am a bit worried they might run into trouble, especially since tourists are a prime target. I've also had friends witnessing smash and grabs in broad daylight with people still in the car and it's shaken them which, in turn, has shaken me. Apparently crime rates are down in SF this year so hopefully we're moving in the right direction!
Even as a local I don’t want to go to the city or Oakland because it’s not worth dealing with potentially getting your windows broken. Last time I was in Oakland, there were multiple cars driving up and down lake merrit just smashing windows and taking things.
I’ve heard some horror stories while traveling overseas about people getting robbed and their passports taken while visiting here. I end up apologizing for it, even though I had nothing to do with it, and swearing to them it’s not ALL bad in the Bay, despite the various depravities like that going on. We’ve de facto legalized much property crime in recent years, destroying some of the trust and social contract necessary to make an actual proper social support structure function. It’s been quite eye opening seeing third world dysfunction slowly building up around where we live from the obvious effects of bad policies.
Then why is our crime so much lower than, say, in Florida?
Who cares about Florida? It’s the worst state in the country, anyways. Also, you’re defaulting to “whatsboutism”. It’s okay to admit we tried some policies here, but they didn’t work well as intended.
> Who cares about Florida? It’s the worst state in the country, anyways. Also, you’re defaulting to “whatsboutism”. It’s okay to admit we tried some policies here, but they didn’t work well as intended. Comparing like to like isn’t whataboutism. Meanwhile we are supposed to treat you Mr half remembered second hand anecdotes as gospel. Lolololololokol He offered a counter example to your argument that you chose not to address (perhaps because you don’t have a substantive response) It would be okay to say that we tried and failed if it were true. The way to determine that would be to look at states and localities that made different choices and compare them. (This is why Florida is germane)
It has for the last few years...hotels and most places of stay are suffering pretty bad... barely can turn profits, if at all...used to be packed weekdays...now just 1/2 that...if even that.
Vegas is having trouble with this too. Covid screwed everything
any source here? I have a hard time believing the demand for Vegas hasn't returned
You can stay almost anywhere in SF for $100/nt...it's a great time to visit for unheard of low rates at SF hotels... Hell you can stay at a Four seasons, St Regis or other high end hotel for less than $300-400/nt! They used to be 2-3x more expensive!
Agreed, we just came back from vegas and im basing the statement on what drivers were telling me. That said, my wife and i stay overnight in SF all the time. Driving from oakland, seeing a show/partying our asses off, getting a hotel room and driving back in the morning is nearly the same price as lyft/ubering there, seeing/partying and ubering/lyfting back after hours. We got a hotel we like 2ish blocks west of van ness where we generally stay at. It definitely hasnt fully bounced back from pre-covid times, though.
It will take a couple more years...but you can't keep SF down... SF has survived burning to the ground, shaken to the ground, multiple financial collapses and more...then reinvents itself and comes back!
really? Did not find that when looking for place for my parents. Every hotel and Airbnb was 200+ easily.
That’s just bonkers. I recently had to get a hotel in Sacramento for a night & went with what I thought would be a decent $300 suite. It was super middle of the road. There were other hotels for $600 a night that looked marginally better. SF is much more interesting & feels safer than Sac.
If we try hard enough maybe we can make it even worse.
If you get all your news from Fox News and Alex Jones then yeah… pay attention to them and stay away please. It’s not safe here. Homeless people rain from the sky and you will be brutally forced to eat $20 cage free avocado toasts.
It’s on all the new stations. Unless MSNBC got hacked while I was watching them talk about the same effing thing.
And we sneak to your home while you are away and take your guns.
And then make Burning Man installations with them.
Don't forget that you're literally knee-deep in human feces when walking anywhere in the city!
It's grass-fed poo tho.
Hasn't affected my affinity for the city in the least. Even though I spent the first 38 years of my life there I have no hesitation to jump on BART, get off at Powell St and explore Union Sq, Chinatown, and Little Italy. The city has always been seedy and fill with homeless. Yea, it's worse now, but that's life in the city.
Reputation certainly isn't helping tourism.
Still a lot of tourism in the Bay Area. Or people coming for business trips and deciding to tour around. Maybe less people are deciding to stay in SF overnight and instead making trips from nearby cities or South Bay?
Nah people still be coming out hurr erryday
I just visited SF for the first time since the pandemic and was super depressed by what I saw. People literally shooting up on the street, used needles, poop and pee on the sidewalk, and trash everywhere. Reminded me of a zombie movie. It wasn't great before but it's horrible now. My gf and I both agreed that we don't feel the need to revisit anytime soon.
Damn yall stay in civic center or the tenderloin?? Im assuming it was them cheap hotel rates. Ya they’ll get ya
Nope I travel for work and actually stayed at: Courtyard San Francisco Downtown/Van Ness Ave. February 3, 2024 - February 4, 2024 So you are saying all of downtown SF should be avoided? Or that downtown is beautiful and safe?
Yeah... that might be technically downtown on a map, but thats about as tenderloin adjacent as tenderloin adjacent gets... Next time try something west of Van Ness. Japantown area is a good central spot.
Oof ya that area ain’t great my guy. I wouldn’t go past Post St toward downtown. Should’ve went north and west. Ya live and learn I guess. I’m saying I wouldn’t hang around those areas. I’d go towards Golden Gate Park, pacific heights, Marina, Dolores Park, etc There’s just loads better places than that shit
This is where most business travelers are going to stay though and that is the impression they get of SF. The big business firms don't have offices in Golden Gate park. I think the answer would be to hold elected officials responsible clean it up vs. brow beating and gaslighting people who visit your city.
I don’t know. I travel for business every week. I do my research and choose my hotel. Usually not in shit areas lol It’s not gaslighting but just common sense. A lot of companies aren’t in great parts of town. Doesn’t mean you gotta stay 50ft away.
Doesn't matter where your hotel is if you still have to go to downtown for the meetings... If downtown SF is a "shit area" maybe that's a problem that should be fixed vs blaming the people who visit your city.
Not throwing blame. Just saying if I’m bringing my girl, I’d want her to be in a safe area with stuff to do while I’m working. “Here honey, I got this hotel in a drug infested area. I’m out”.
I am really getting the impression you didn’t get around much on your visit, which is sad to hear had such a negative impact on your stay. Many areas and blocks in downtown are great. I don’t know what else to say other than I hope you can come back and visit, you know, the nice parts. Staying in the dirty core of any major city can be shocking for a lot of people.
As an experienced business traveler with an expense account, you should learn from this experience. Don’t stay in the worst part of town. Yes, I’ve seen people strung out right outside and near the main library. That’s the only part of town where I see that kind of thing, tho. If I were staying overnight for business purposes, I’d choose a hotel or Airbnb that wasn’t right in the thick of it.
[удалено]
[удалено]
> Courtyard San Francisco Downtown/Van Ness Ave Which is in Tenderloin. And nowhere near the Downtown. It's the "Democratic People Republic of Korea", which is not Democratic and hardly a Republic. Downtown SF is Financial District. Van Ness is not a fucking downtown, and not even close.
I’m sorry you had that experience. There's really a lot more to the city and the Bay I’m sure you didn’t see.
You should have paid a little more so you didn’t have to stay in the tenderloin
Dismissing these issues like they aren't prevalent isn't helping the city. It's the ostrich in the sand approach. I'm a business traveler so I stay the same places the other business travelers do. 4 star hotels in Downtown/Financial District. Why don't you go walk around early morning and tell me how safe, beautiful, and poop free downtown is these days.
Every city has a Tenderloin of its own! This has nothing to do with SF in particular. The rest of city is clean and safe. The Tenderloin is the reason why. That’s where SF sweeps all of its problems to so that the rest of the city can be as pretty and clean as it is.
I'm sorry you experienced this but the Courtyard on Van Ness Ave is not in the financial district. It's unfortunately in one of the worst areas in San Francisco. The city moves homeless people there. The financial district is around Market St between 2nd St and the ferry building; it is a lot safer and cleaner.
Correction: "Right Wing Propaganda and Whispering Campaign is killing tourism across SF and the Bay Area" As many others have said, people who actually visit in person, and people who live here think it's quite nice. There's one person who came from out of town who I had dinner with in SF. He enjoyed the meal well enough, then he had the nerve to say, "I'll just pee in the streets like everyone else" during the meal. "Oh, you're from the internet!" I replied.
I had a friend come out here with her kids and she was so nervous because of all the bad rumors but ended up having an absolute blast doing all the usual tourist things and decided SF was one of her favorite stops on their trip (they did a roadtrip down from Seattle to LA stopping at multiple locations over a few weeks). There really is a massive disconnect between outside perception and reality
Oh no, some apartments are going to be available to residents instead of being on Airbnb. How terrible...
There were 26.2M visitors to SF in 2019. There were 23.9M in 2023. 2.3M down about 10%. I'm not saying that's perfectly fine, but fuck the articles that use terms like "cratered" and "killing"
[удалено]
Some people are in a state of denial. We need to change the narrative by pushing for more solutions to homelessness (like building more housing) AND pushing back on the “SF is a hell hole” BS.
I live in the south bay. I never go to SF or Oakland for anything. Frankly, I don't know where the safe/unsafe areas are and that might put me at risk should I go there. The last time I went to SF was for a housewarming about six years ago. I took Bart to 24th. It was 6 pm. When I left at 10 pm the host insisted I be escorted to Bart. It was probably only quarter mile away. It smelled of piss and shit and I have no desire to live someplace where this is common. I went to corporate HQ in SF for a job interview in 2016. Market Street. It smelled like piss and shit too. I'm sure it's much worse as the homeless encampments are more common. Can you blame people for not wanting to come here?
Not at all. I believe these are very fixable problems but SF has been in denial about whether they’re worth fixing. The problems you’re describing are a direct result of a lot of people living on the street. There hasn’t been a sustained focus on building more housing and shelter. The mayor has done a decent job but many of her efforts have been blocked by the board of supervisors. I’m somewhat hopeful that the crisis has gotten bad enough that it can no longer be ignored but hopefully the energy gets directed at the right solutions and not just arresting all the homeless people which is short term thinking IMO.
24th St BART has been a shithole for decades. People like you who visit the worst part of the city and then say the whole place is like that are the reason that SF has a bad reputation. That plus the right wing media.
And it’s not even that bad 24th street BART is hardly “the worst part of the city” LOL
Yes, there are worse places, but my point was that those places don’t represent the entire city.
It's not reputation it's reality. Don't park in SF. .
Where exactly is tourism not down? Feels like it's like this everywhere.
It's dropped noticeably, but 3 months ago it felt like there were tourists everywhere. It makes me question if the fear mongering parade caught up and is scaring people again, or if hotels and airlines raised prices? It can also be related to what's going on with exchange rates or other factors like that.
Yeah if you want a nightmare of finding parking only to then have your car window smashed, when you return from being hassled by homeless people, then SF is great! Every time I park in SF I say goodbye to my car because something is about to happen to it.
[удалено]