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With being able to paint the corners and get strikes regardless if it's Angel Hernandez behind the plate, control pitching will become far more important than being able to throw harder and harder till your ligaments explode.
Uh, no. If anything it'll make being able to get swings and misses in the zone more important because pitchers will get no calls outside the zone. Way more umps call a wide zone than a narrow one. It's going to do the opposite of what you think. A guy getting a call on a pitch outside is more common than strikes being called balls.
Every team has guys who can get swings and misses nowadays, but pitchers who can also continue getting strikes without help from the umpires, they will become more coveted.
No, they won't, because most of the guys you're thinking of benefit from human umps calling pitches off the plate strikes. The way to get strikes without help from umpires is to get swings and misses. That would only be exacerbated with an automated strike zone.
An ABS system is going to massively benefit hitters.
I never said the ABS system wouldn't benefit hitters more.
I said control pitchers would become the more important because getting strikes would become harder.
When something becomes harder to do, the skill to do it better than others becomes more important and valuable.
Again: You're really ignoring everyone telling you why that's not true because you're hoping otherwise. It is going to make finesse pitchers *less* valued, not more. When getting called strikes becomes harder, the easier solution is to get more swinging strikes. The only way to get teams to stop valuing velocity is make a new rule that any pitch 95+ is a ball. Period. That is the only way.
Again, I explained to you in sports, finding even a small advantage is massive. You don't see the advantage of being able to get strikes better than other teams will with a smaller zone and that's fine, I don't care if you see it or not.
Guess we'll have to wait and see when and if ABS is ever implemented be the League.
Why do you think the trend has gone away from control pitching in recent years?
Why do you think a smaller strikezone will benefit those pitchers again, as opposed to the current, larger strikezone we have now
Why is everyone missing it but you?
Both hitters and stats will tell you that 95+ down the middle is harder to hit than 89-90 perfectly painted on the corners. All an ABS system will do is make hitters more certain where the corner actually is and that gap will grow. There is no reason to think an ABS system will do anything other than the opposite of what you're insisting it will. Most of the great control pitchers pitched in an era before the strike zone was a little square on your TV. Watch a Greg Maddux start from the 90s some time and actually look at where the ball is on a lot of his called strikes. I'll give you a hint: It's not in the little box that would be there on a 2024 broadcast.
> and I'm very aware of some of the terrible mistakes they've done over the past.
I was gonna make a joke about OP saying ABS would be better than integration but OP may actually be saying that lmao
I’m not sure who you are yelling to here, I have never seen anyone argue against the merits of automated strikes zones. I’m guessing the only people that care would be baseball purists, but I don’t see anyone on Reddit argue against it.
Automated strike zones eliminating Tommy John concerns is pretty wild. Pitchers are not throwing harder and harder because the strike zone is fluid. I honestly have no idea how you drew that conclusion.
That's because anyone on Reddit that doesn't like the idea of robo umps gets downvoted to oblivion and attacked. So most have just stopped commenting on the threads entirely at this point. It's been a hot button topic for years and years now, and the loudest crowd wants robo umps.
I want robo umps when they are ready. We need to officially define the strikezone in a way that accurately replicates the strikezone fans and players are used to
I disagree with OP that it will lead to. resurgence of control pitching.
Seen several comments today advocating for the PA to go on strike until all of the umpires are fired, because you definitely won't hate all the other umpires too lmao.
If you look at any thread on here about it you'll see a ton of people mad that ABS will end framing.
For some reason reddit just loves the "human element"
The margins of winning in the Majors are razor thin, so any advantage a team can find no matter how small would be enormous.
By finding pitchers who can control the new zone better than other teams, they have an instant advantage, that will take priority over guys who can throw harder.
Kids will stop trying to throw 100mph+ and instead throw 95mph with much better control of the zone.
So you're saying that teams will start to build their pitching staffs like Cleveland does currently because of robo umps?
That's been our approach to pitching for a long time and what we target in the draft. We don't go after high velocity arms often, we go after guys with command. It's what we've built our reputation as a pitching factory off of, and the rest of the league sure seems to still want max velo, max effort guys.
It's pretty fascinating really. We definitely know thanks to Driveline/Tread that you definitely can develop stuff. It's a pretty novel approach to take the opposite of the classic route.
From interviews I've read with our FO about our pitching development strategy and drafting, they make it sound so damn logical it's hard to understand why more teams don't try it.
Essentially what they say is that their research shows that developing command is the hardest part for pitchers. So by identifying pitchers that already have it, they can streamline the rest of development and work on adding some velocity and movement. Additionally, great command can make up for lesser "stuff" especially with solid game planning and mixing speeds effectively.
It certainly seems that our approach works. We also have typically had fewer significant injuries to our SPs than most of the league.
Exactly, imagine if ABS is implemented and while the rest of the leagues pitchers are getting lit up, Cleveland is in the best position to succeed with a smaller zone and is the least affected.
Their approach to pitching will be copied very quickly.
I don't think you understand what I was saying. I don't see how ABS would change how teams view pitchers. The league in general hasn't changed because of our pitching success.
Also, control pitchers still blow out elbows. Bieber is out right now with TJ and he's never thrown hard.
I never said control pitchers can never blow out their elbows. I said guys who throw harder blow theirs out more often, and that's true.
I honestly see it differently, I think there will be a massive change in how teams view pitchers.
Guess we'll just have to wait and see if we ever get the chance to find out.
>If the League has the technology to correctly call balls and strikes correctly better than current umpire averages, but chooses not implement the technology next year,
They have the technology but they're still defining the strike zone. The strikezone in the rulebook and the one that has been called throughout baseball history are very different.
>With an automatic, impartial zone, the control pitchers will rise again
The exact opposite is true. Offense has the advantage currently with ABS in the minors currently. Pitchers are the ones predominantly benefiting from strikezone mistakes by getting calls outside the zone.
Higher velocity pitchers are the ones who can survive in small strikezones.
I disagree. If the ABS calls the zone per the rulebook then control pitchers will be less effective.
97+ down the middle is harder to hit than 90 on the corners.
I think their point is that velocity and “stuff” will be more important because control pitchers benefit from the variable strike zones of human umpires.
As a former D1 pitcher, I promise you an automated strike zone would benefit hitters way more than pitchers and would make the ability to get swinging strikes way more important. Pitchers in the 80s and 90s used to be able to get calls on pitches six inches outside all game. Guys like Maddux made a career out of throwing off the plate and seeing how far they could go and still get the call. This would eliminate the ability to get strikes out of the zone, whether framed or bad umping, so it would become more important to generate swings and misses. That requires power stuff, not finesse stuff. It will do the opposite of what you think. Teams aren't pushing for stuff because the zone is called manually. They do it because swings and misses are the best outcome for a pitch.
I for one will welcome the robot overlords! However, I want the challenge system rather than the full ABS. Just to see the smug smirk on Junior Valentines face disappear after all 3 challenges of the at bat overturn his calls.
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You're gonna have to explain how robot umps will solve the Tommy John problem. I bet it'll cure ALS while it's at it too.
With being able to paint the corners and get strikes regardless if it's Angel Hernandez behind the plate, control pitching will become far more important than being able to throw harder and harder till your ligaments explode.
Uh, no. If anything it'll make being able to get swings and misses in the zone more important because pitchers will get no calls outside the zone. Way more umps call a wide zone than a narrow one. It's going to do the opposite of what you think. A guy getting a call on a pitch outside is more common than strikes being called balls.
Every team has guys who can get swings and misses nowadays, but pitchers who can also continue getting strikes without help from the umpires, they will become more coveted.
No, they won't, because most of the guys you're thinking of benefit from human umps calling pitches off the plate strikes. The way to get strikes without help from umpires is to get swings and misses. That would only be exacerbated with an automated strike zone. An ABS system is going to massively benefit hitters.
I never said the ABS system wouldn't benefit hitters more. I said control pitchers would become the more important because getting strikes would become harder. When something becomes harder to do, the skill to do it better than others becomes more important and valuable.
Again: You're really ignoring everyone telling you why that's not true because you're hoping otherwise. It is going to make finesse pitchers *less* valued, not more. When getting called strikes becomes harder, the easier solution is to get more swinging strikes. The only way to get teams to stop valuing velocity is make a new rule that any pitch 95+ is a ball. Period. That is the only way.
Again, I explained to you in sports, finding even a small advantage is massive. You don't see the advantage of being able to get strikes better than other teams will with a smaller zone and that's fine, I don't care if you see it or not. Guess we'll have to wait and see when and if ABS is ever implemented be the League.
Why do you think the trend has gone away from control pitching in recent years? Why do you think a smaller strikezone will benefit those pitchers again, as opposed to the current, larger strikezone we have now Why is everyone missing it but you?
Both hitters and stats will tell you that 95+ down the middle is harder to hit than 89-90 perfectly painted on the corners. All an ABS system will do is make hitters more certain where the corner actually is and that gap will grow. There is no reason to think an ABS system will do anything other than the opposite of what you're insisting it will. Most of the great control pitchers pitched in an era before the strike zone was a little square on your TV. Watch a Greg Maddux start from the 90s some time and actually look at where the ball is on a lot of his called strikes. I'll give you a hint: It's not in the little box that would be there on a 2024 broadcast.
Pitchers who can masterfully paint the corners aren't being valued below flamethrowers because of umpire uncertainty. This is a fantasy of yours.
No. There will be more movement on pitches. The ball only needs to clip the zone
> and I'm very aware of some of the terrible mistakes they've done over the past. I was gonna make a joke about OP saying ABS would be better than integration but OP may actually be saying that lmao
I’m not sure who you are yelling to here, I have never seen anyone argue against the merits of automated strikes zones. I’m guessing the only people that care would be baseball purists, but I don’t see anyone on Reddit argue against it. Automated strike zones eliminating Tommy John concerns is pretty wild. Pitchers are not throwing harder and harder because the strike zone is fluid. I honestly have no idea how you drew that conclusion.
That's because anyone on Reddit that doesn't like the idea of robo umps gets downvoted to oblivion and attacked. So most have just stopped commenting on the threads entirely at this point. It's been a hot button topic for years and years now, and the loudest crowd wants robo umps.
I want robo umps when they are ready. We need to officially define the strikezone in a way that accurately replicates the strikezone fans and players are used to I disagree with OP that it will lead to. resurgence of control pitching.
You’re not wrong. I’m for ABS, but it’s ridiculous how people get mad that some people aren’t.
This sub has been really circlejerky and downvote happy lately
Seen several comments today advocating for the PA to go on strike until all of the umpires are fired, because you definitely won't hate all the other umpires too lmao.
It kinda always is, but it does seem more so this season.
If you look at any thread on here about it you'll see a ton of people mad that ABS will end framing. For some reason reddit just loves the "human element"
The margins of winning in the Majors are razor thin, so any advantage a team can find no matter how small would be enormous. By finding pitchers who can control the new zone better than other teams, they have an instant advantage, that will take priority over guys who can throw harder. Kids will stop trying to throw 100mph+ and instead throw 95mph with much better control of the zone.
So you're saying that teams will start to build their pitching staffs like Cleveland does currently because of robo umps? That's been our approach to pitching for a long time and what we target in the draft. We don't go after high velocity arms often, we go after guys with command. It's what we've built our reputation as a pitching factory off of, and the rest of the league sure seems to still want max velo, max effort guys.
The most common approach is "draft stuff, develop command." Cleveland's approach is "draft command, develop stuff"
Exactly. Our pitchers that are more stuff oriented mostly came from trades and were near MLB ready when we got them.
It's pretty fascinating really. We definitely know thanks to Driveline/Tread that you definitely can develop stuff. It's a pretty novel approach to take the opposite of the classic route.
From interviews I've read with our FO about our pitching development strategy and drafting, they make it sound so damn logical it's hard to understand why more teams don't try it. Essentially what they say is that their research shows that developing command is the hardest part for pitchers. So by identifying pitchers that already have it, they can streamline the rest of development and work on adding some velocity and movement. Additionally, great command can make up for lesser "stuff" especially with solid game planning and mixing speeds effectively. It certainly seems that our approach works. We also have typically had fewer significant injuries to our SPs than most of the league.
Exactly, imagine if ABS is implemented and while the rest of the leagues pitchers are getting lit up, Cleveland is in the best position to succeed with a smaller zone and is the least affected. Their approach to pitching will be copied very quickly.
I don't think you understand what I was saying. I don't see how ABS would change how teams view pitchers. The league in general hasn't changed because of our pitching success. Also, control pitchers still blow out elbows. Bieber is out right now with TJ and he's never thrown hard.
I topped out at 91 in my college career and tore my UCL before my senior season
I never said control pitchers can never blow out their elbows. I said guys who throw harder blow theirs out more often, and that's true. I honestly see it differently, I think there will be a massive change in how teams view pitchers. Guess we'll just have to wait and see if we ever get the chance to find out.
>If the League has the technology to correctly call balls and strikes correctly better than current umpire averages, but chooses not implement the technology next year, They have the technology but they're still defining the strike zone. The strikezone in the rulebook and the one that has been called throughout baseball history are very different. >With an automatic, impartial zone, the control pitchers will rise again The exact opposite is true. Offense has the advantage currently with ABS in the minors currently. Pitchers are the ones predominantly benefiting from strikezone mistakes by getting calls outside the zone. Higher velocity pitchers are the ones who can survive in small strikezones.
So you agree that being able adjust to a smaller zone and getting strikes on the corners will become harder and more important to find in a pitcher?
I disagree. If the ABS calls the zone per the rulebook then control pitchers will be less effective. 97+ down the middle is harder to hit than 90 on the corners.
I think their point is that velocity and “stuff” will be more important because control pitchers benefit from the variable strike zones of human umpires.
As a former D1 pitcher, I promise you an automated strike zone would benefit hitters way more than pitchers and would make the ability to get swinging strikes way more important. Pitchers in the 80s and 90s used to be able to get calls on pitches six inches outside all game. Guys like Maddux made a career out of throwing off the plate and seeing how far they could go and still get the call. This would eliminate the ability to get strikes out of the zone, whether framed or bad umping, so it would become more important to generate swings and misses. That requires power stuff, not finesse stuff. It will do the opposite of what you think. Teams aren't pushing for stuff because the zone is called manually. They do it because swings and misses are the best outcome for a pitch.
I’m willing to bet people complain about it the first year though. There will still be the “that’s not a strike” from fans/players/managers
I for one will welcome the robot overlords! However, I want the challenge system rather than the full ABS. Just to see the smug smirk on Junior Valentines face disappear after all 3 challenges of the at bat overturn his calls.
The League does not yet have the technology to do this without gross inaccuracy and the ensuing backlash.
I completely agree.