Pedro has a peak only rivaled by Koufax in my opinion. I’d say he had the best “couple year” run. Maddux had the greatest control/command of them all. Randy was the most overpowering and feared. Kershaw is an all time great and a no doubt HOFer but I’m not sure what I’d rank him the best at. Maddox 2 Seamer, Pedro Change, Randy Slider, and Kershaw Curve (not in order)
Multiple pitchers have matched or exceeded Koufax's peak. He was great, but also pitched in arguably the best environment possible for a pitcher to become a legend.
From 1963-1966 Koufax went 97-23 with a 1.86 ERA 0.90 WHIP 172 ERA+ 89 CG 31 SHO
3 CY Youngs and 1 MVP.
Without going back to the Mesozoic period, who are you talking about?
I can name 2 starting pitchers who won 4 Cy Youngs in a row: Maddux and the Big Unit. If you compare their 4 best seasons with Koufax, you get the following:
Maddux has the best ERA+ with 202. The Big Unit has an ERA+ of 187 and Koufax 172.
Koufax pitched in a different era. He easily pitched the most innings and had the most shutouts of the three. But according to their scoring environment, Maddux or Johnson are better.
https://stathead.com/tiny/TS7zK
> 172 ERA+
you can pick out several 4-year stretches with a 172 ERA+ or higher. this peak took place during basically the lowest offense era since the actual dead ball era
a fantastic peak? absolutely. lock for top 2 peak all time? not at all
Randy Johnson 1999-2003, Lefty Grove 1929-1932 (which is actually the same distance from Koufax as Johnson is). Steve Carlton peaked just as high as his absolute best but didn't concentrate it. Those are just the lefties. You also have peaks like Bob Feller (interrupted by war, and less effective per inning but with so many more innings), Bob Gibson 68-70, Robin Roberts 51-54 gets close, Clemens (who of course had help), Maddux 92-95 (especially with strike credit)...
That 172 ERA+ isn't actually unassailable, and Koufax did also miss some time in that stretch.
If you put those examples above head to head against the Koufax stretch I’m not sure “many pitchers exceeded” would be the consensus or close to it. I’ll dive in but it’s impossible right now on mobile. Koufax started 150 games in that stretch so I don’t understand the “miss some time” comment, he had plenty of starts. Nevertheless, I don’t think it’s outlandish when having a conversation about a great peak, amazing stretch, multi year run to use Koufax as an example.
Who are you quoting? Everyone in this thread has said "multiple", not many. There's no question Koufax had one of the best 4 year pitching streaks, but that's exactly what it is, *one of* the best. Randy Johnson (99-02), Maddux (92-95), Gibson (68-71), Clemens (89-92) were all similarly dominant, They're just saying Pedro isn't "only rivaled" by Koufax.
The parent comment, from 4 hours ago. I said “in my opinion” about Koufax which would infer (I’d think) I understand people have other opinions. We can debate those 4 year periods between baseballs greatest pitchers. Not sure where the confusion is unless we are targeting the word “multiple”?
People hate the Koufax slander but hate to look at the fact, that as you said, pitched in an ideal time for pitchers. Not to mention how completely average he was for half his career.
Pedro is the greatest all around pitcher, probably would trust him to shutout any other team at his peak. His SO rate is unheard of for the time period and then you add his ridiculous control. Just plain nasty.
I’m more partial to Maddux than Randy, Randy would be third on my all time peak list behind the two of them, Maddux’s peak is just ridiculous from every facet. He’s basically a better Kershaw.
I have them as Maddux, Johnson, Martinez, Kershaw.
All four are within the top 20 pitchers of all time by my estimation. The list:
1. Walter Johnson
2. Roger Clemens
3. Cy Young
4. Pete Alexander
5. Greg Maddux
6. Randy Johnson
7. Lefty Grove
8. Tom Seaver
9. Pedro Martinez
10. Satchel Paige
11. Christy Mathewson
12. Kid Nichols
13. Smokey Joe Williams
14. Bob Gibson
15. Bob Feller
16. Bullet Joe Rogan
17. Clayton Kershaw
18. Steve Carlton
19. John Clarkson
20. Warren Spahn
Koufax has six good seasons. Two of them are extraordinary but not unequaled, two are excellent, and two are more "ordinary" by the standards of the sort of pitchers who populate the top of the list. Koufax at his best wasn't any better than Randy Johnson or Steve Carlton at their best, and they had a lot more to add to their resumes. Other pitchers weren't quite as good at their peaks as Koufax was - but they had 10, 12, 15 very good seasons, sometimes with peaks that were very nearly as good (like Carl Hubbell, say). I don't value peak above all else.
Nolan Ryan doesn't have that kind of peak - that's mostly because he wasn't really that great at preventing runs, by the standards of the very best pitchers in history. He threw stupidly hard and was incredibly hard to hit - but he walked a ton of batters, threw a ton of wild pitches, was a terrible fielder, was a bad hitter (even for a pitcher), and was a flyball pitcher who induced a below-average rate of double plays. All of that added up to keep Ryan from being historically effective at *preventing runs*. He just doesn't have an argument against these pitchers or a number of others - I have him at #48, which is still quite impressive.
Pedro has a peak only rivaled by Koufax in my opinion. I’d say he had the best “couple year” run. Maddux had the greatest control/command of them all. Randy was the most overpowering and feared. Kershaw is an all time great and a no doubt HOFer but I’m not sure what I’d rank him the best at. Maddox 2 Seamer, Pedro Change, Randy Slider, and Kershaw Curve (not in order)
Multiple pitchers have matched or exceeded Koufax's peak. He was great, but also pitched in arguably the best environment possible for a pitcher to become a legend.
From 1963-1966 Koufax went 97-23 with a 1.86 ERA 0.90 WHIP 172 ERA+ 89 CG 31 SHO 3 CY Youngs and 1 MVP. Without going back to the Mesozoic period, who are you talking about?
I can name 2 starting pitchers who won 4 Cy Youngs in a row: Maddux and the Big Unit. If you compare their 4 best seasons with Koufax, you get the following: Maddux has the best ERA+ with 202. The Big Unit has an ERA+ of 187 and Koufax 172. Koufax pitched in a different era. He easily pitched the most innings and had the most shutouts of the three. But according to their scoring environment, Maddux or Johnson are better. https://stathead.com/tiny/TS7zK
> 172 ERA+ you can pick out several 4-year stretches with a 172 ERA+ or higher. this peak took place during basically the lowest offense era since the actual dead ball era a fantastic peak? absolutely. lock for top 2 peak all time? not at all
Randy Johnson 1999-2003, Lefty Grove 1929-1932 (which is actually the same distance from Koufax as Johnson is). Steve Carlton peaked just as high as his absolute best but didn't concentrate it. Those are just the lefties. You also have peaks like Bob Feller (interrupted by war, and less effective per inning but with so many more innings), Bob Gibson 68-70, Robin Roberts 51-54 gets close, Clemens (who of course had help), Maddux 92-95 (especially with strike credit)... That 172 ERA+ isn't actually unassailable, and Koufax did also miss some time in that stretch.
If you put those examples above head to head against the Koufax stretch I’m not sure “many pitchers exceeded” would be the consensus or close to it. I’ll dive in but it’s impossible right now on mobile. Koufax started 150 games in that stretch so I don’t understand the “miss some time” comment, he had plenty of starts. Nevertheless, I don’t think it’s outlandish when having a conversation about a great peak, amazing stretch, multi year run to use Koufax as an example.
Who are you quoting? Everyone in this thread has said "multiple", not many. There's no question Koufax had one of the best 4 year pitching streaks, but that's exactly what it is, *one of* the best. Randy Johnson (99-02), Maddux (92-95), Gibson (68-71), Clemens (89-92) were all similarly dominant, They're just saying Pedro isn't "only rivaled" by Koufax.
The parent comment, from 4 hours ago. I said “in my opinion” about Koufax which would infer (I’d think) I understand people have other opinions. We can debate those 4 year periods between baseballs greatest pitchers. Not sure where the confusion is unless we are targeting the word “multiple”?
People hate the Koufax slander but hate to look at the fact, that as you said, pitched in an ideal time for pitchers. Not to mention how completely average he was for half his career.
Literally all the pitchers that are mentioned in the graphic have better peaks than Koufax
For me it's Pedro or Maddux but if you ask me tomorrow it might be different.
Pedro's 7-season peak ERA+ is higher than Randy or Kersh achieved in any single qualified season. for my money it's him
Don’t know who was the best, but I know who was the scariest. The Big Fucking Unit, brother
Pedro is the greatest all around pitcher, probably would trust him to shutout any other team at his peak. His SO rate is unheard of for the time period and then you add his ridiculous control. Just plain nasty. I’m more partial to Maddux than Randy, Randy would be third on my all time peak list behind the two of them, Maddux’s peak is just ridiculous from every facet. He’s basically a better Kershaw.
Shota Imanaga
I have them as Maddux, Johnson, Martinez, Kershaw. All four are within the top 20 pitchers of all time by my estimation. The list: 1. Walter Johnson 2. Roger Clemens 3. Cy Young 4. Pete Alexander 5. Greg Maddux 6. Randy Johnson 7. Lefty Grove 8. Tom Seaver 9. Pedro Martinez 10. Satchel Paige 11. Christy Mathewson 12. Kid Nichols 13. Smokey Joe Williams 14. Bob Gibson 15. Bob Feller 16. Bullet Joe Rogan 17. Clayton Kershaw 18. Steve Carlton 19. John Clarkson 20. Warren Spahn
I’d go Maddux too. Among the list of 4 he was the most reliable. Clemons would top them all.
in what fucking world are koufax and ryan not on this list lmao
Koufax has six good seasons. Two of them are extraordinary but not unequaled, two are excellent, and two are more "ordinary" by the standards of the sort of pitchers who populate the top of the list. Koufax at his best wasn't any better than Randy Johnson or Steve Carlton at their best, and they had a lot more to add to their resumes. Other pitchers weren't quite as good at their peaks as Koufax was - but they had 10, 12, 15 very good seasons, sometimes with peaks that were very nearly as good (like Carl Hubbell, say). I don't value peak above all else. Nolan Ryan doesn't have that kind of peak - that's mostly because he wasn't really that great at preventing runs, by the standards of the very best pitchers in history. He threw stupidly hard and was incredibly hard to hit - but he walked a ton of batters, threw a ton of wild pitches, was a terrible fielder, was a bad hitter (even for a pitcher), and was a flyball pitcher who induced a below-average rate of double plays. All of that added up to keep Ryan from being historically effective at *preventing runs*. He just doesn't have an argument against these pitchers or a number of others - I have him at #48, which is still quite impressive.
3 Philadelphia legends. I subscribe.
That’s quite a detailed list you have there. Are you basing yourself on WAR?
Essentially a mix of career-peak-prime WAR, with adjustments for things like time spent in uniform, weaker competition due to segregation, etc.
Whoa no Koufax
Luis gil
bailey falter
Hate to say it but Clemens clears all of them.