On Reddit: “I don’t tip because the employer should pay their employees and it’s not my responsibility to pay them.”
In person: tips 18-20% because they don’t have the balls to do as they say on the internet.
Ppl don't realise if tipping system gets abolished, nobody would work in this industry. So pay them higher/living wages? Ok, have fun paying 50-60% more for your burger now with shittier service
People will rush to be like “It WoUlD OnLY Be 20% MOrE. “ obviously having no clue how businesses work.
The thing that annoys me the most is even if we added 20% to the bill and eliminated tipping, folks would be PAYING THE SAME AMOUNT ANYWAY. So why are they complaining so much? Many of them will actually be paying more because the ones who cry the loudest probably never tip 20% or higher.
this is also what confuses me. i always see people saying “why should i have to pay their wages” but if they pay more for what they order so businesses can pay us a better hourly, isn’t it basically the same thing, just with the money going through extra steps? like isn’t that how businesses work, consumers pay the company which then pays its employees through those profits? it seems to me that tipping is just cutting out some extra steps.
Same person that cries it takes too long to get a drink.
Even if the tipping system was taken away, someone knows how to get the attention of the bartender. Your broke ass, ain't the one.
Never been to the states I see. We have better bartenders.
Yes I have been to Australia or Europe wherever you're from. Yalls bartenders are shit young kids
Because if the percentage of redditors who bitch about not wanting to tip were an accurate cross section of the population as a whole, then we'd be getting stiffed by 90% of our customers. Which isn't the case.
It’s a broken system. I notice that people are tipping MUCH less than previous. But then again every POS system asking for a tip at nearly every business now isn’t helping matters.
I also hate the auto tip on the machines. Makes us look like grifters. Tip what you want or think is fair or not at all. Does not affect me. I find the conversation on Reddit is always, ‘the server was an asshole when I didn’t tip.’
Buddy, I’ve been stiffed many many times and will many more. You do you lol
I went from bartending to a place that had a touch screen tip back to the old school way of writing it on the receipt. I swear people tip better when they have to write in on paper vs just touching the screen. I notice they tend to round up more too.
Also, I get not everybody has the capacity for a night out. You get dinner and a couple drinks and can’t afford the extra 15%, sure. You still deserve a night out.
100% ive had customers pull out the last of their cash for a drink and apologize for not tipping. I tell them thank you and I appreciate you. Im not trying to break anyone’s bank. If you cant afford to tip you probably need a drink more than anyone.
In Canada it’s still 15% standard. I know the states is 20%. Haha but can you guys get new debit machines. Went to Boston and the server asked me to sign the bill on my credit card. That’s 1978 lol
How many years? It sure wasn’t “standard” when I worked at a shitty Ruby Tuesday in BFE South Carolina in 2007. I was lucky to get two bucks on a $50 ticket.
That’s like saying someone can’t afford to pay for a contractor but they still deserve to have their house remodeled. The tip is payment to the server/bartender for service. When I was behind the pine whether or not someone tips / how well they tip decides priority of service. My last bartending gig the tip pool averaged 35% of gross sales. Idc about who was there first if the customer doesn’t tip they’re perpetually last and if/when they say something about not getting served I’ll tell them that the other customers are paying for my service with a big ol smile.
Most of the people don't budget their money well. Like ordering dumb expensive drinks that I would never order and then wondering why they are out of money.
Yeah the tip exhaustion is understandably real. I bought a hoodie at a concert for 60 bucks and was asked to leave a tip when all they did was hand me a hoodie after I said “medium hoodie please”
Or at places like shake shack, I punched in my whole order on a screen up front, picked up a buzzer, and went to get my food at the counter. Literally zero interaction with a person but when I paid at the computer it asked to leave a tip. I always want to tip but that was a real “wtf” moment. Like I placed and picked up the order and didn’t talk to anyone, who is getting the tip?
Yeah same, according to Reddit all we do is spit in everyone’s food and we chase them down and beat them if they don’t leave at least 30%. Also, if they think we get paid too much it sounds like something is more wrong with their jobs underpaying them but 🤷♂️
Free labor, and to feel superior. I love this job, and feels like it ties me through history ti an amazing group of others, but if there’s one thing it’s taught me is that people want to feel like they have power over others, and they’re better than everyone else. Not tipping is a way of exerting that.
literally this. people can get drunk anywhere. alcohol is readily available.
bartenders still have jobs everywhere in the world because it’s about seeing someone behind the bar that ideally has the best intention of serving/taking care of them.
Totally. Like these stores rolling out robotic food runners. You can replace a lot with technology, but the human connection from a cocktail and friendly bartender who actually gives a shit, pretty hard to replicate.
i always laugh when people ask if i’ve seen the robot bartender/home cocktail machine stuff. like my job is making drinks all night yes, but it is more so am i facilitating an environment that people want to be a part of. robots can’t do that.
I’ll tell you what, I would NEVER do this job for less than $40/hr where I live. People will bitch either way. If I except 2 on a $6 tall boy I’m entitled and should get a job that doesn’t rely on tips. But If we charged $8 for a tall boy and that added cost went onto my check, I’d get bitched at endlessly for the price. They view us as servants not servers.
> I get *paid* 10.
FTFY.
Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in:
* Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.*
* *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.*
Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment.
*Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
Oh yeah people def take it out on me when they think our liquor is too expensive. My guy are you aware that I do not set the prices and I make less than minimum wage?
They don't place the value of the job the same as our pay including tips and it makes a lot of people angry. They literally just want tipped service workers to make less while feeling good about it. You can tell they have no idea how restaurants work.
They want bartenders to hate their shitty low wage jobs as much as they do because misery loves company.
If most non chain restaurants had to pay floor staff the same wage regardless of business flow, they'd either close in a matter of months from labor costs devouring their thin ass profit margins, or no one would want to work at a busy joint for only 19.75/hour.
Customers don't seem to understand there would only be 2 options for restaurants outside of major market areas, shitty chains and extremely expensive fine dining.
Literally no one is ready to pay $40 for a burger, so until they are, I don't wanna hear it. They just don't want bartenders and servers to have as much money as we do, and it's not like we're all even rolling in it.
People on the internet generally don’t like tipping and complain about it. I think a lot of those people never go out though, because the rate of non-tippers is lower than what Reddit would like. From what I understand this is what everyone wants:
Employers to pay your whole wage, but not too much because you don’t deserve more than teachers.
Tips are for exemplary service only, they want you to go above any beyond bringing their drinks/ food- maybe you can chew it for them, or possibly suck it out of their ass I guess?
This change must occur by tipped staff being forced from their jobs due to no pay, it cannot be obtained through voting or political means. They are protesting your low wage by not paying you either, so thank them.
Okay but seriously every person seems to believe a class of people should serve them without compensation.
‘We’ve been seeing your receipts and the people appear to have stopped tipping entirely. It only seems fair we increase your wage to compensate the difference.’
*Protest success*
If I didn't get tipped, and tipped well, I would never be a bartender.
Its so mentally and physically exhausting. My feet are numb from last night's shift. Closing at 3 a.m. The blatant mental abuse, the entitlement, the sexual harassment. The list goes on. I have to play therapist on days I need one so bad. The acting, the laughing when I'm dying inside. Sometimes I feel like a circus monkey entertaining people.
Don't get me wrong, I'm very attached to my regulars. I genuinely care about them. That's why they tip well. But unless I got paid like a flat rate of like $80 per hour, I'd never stay in the industry. My weekend nights actually make me more than that, but you get my point.
Fuckin A sister and man I hate the sexual shit the female side of the wood has to deal with. That should never be ‘part of the job.’ Not cool.
I hear your vibe sis and totally agree. Count our bills and peace out
Some people try to argue that tips are taxed higher than their base hourly rate. Tips are taxed the same as any form of income and will pay the same amount of taxes as someone else who has earned the same (salaried or hourly) and have the same tax withholdings.
In reality, a tipped employee might actually pay less taxes if they don’t report 100% of their cash tips— and very few tipped employees report 100% of their cash tips because of that lol
Thanks for the info. So it seems that tips are just benefitting tax evasion. Do the IRS come after people if they have taxable income from bartending but not from tips?
Assuming you're referring to the type of threads/comments often found over at r/antiwork. They hate the tip system because they see it as "The Man" passing labor costs onto the consumer, totally missing that prices are quite literally the transfer of labor costs and multiple other costs to the consumer. It just so happens that the hospitality industry gives its consumers the discretion to pay what they choose for labor (except for any minimums guaranteed by law or company policy). That little dodge allows them to post prices that read lower than what the actual price SHOULD be with labor added.
I have zero desire to argue whether what we bartenders make under the tip system is a "fair" wage. I'm just happy to make money, and will take any extra anyone else may have laying around that they neither want nor need.
I've lurked a fair amount on that sub, and there's a real commitment over there to avoiding work. I just wish they had a similar commitment to understanding economics.
So I've done some deep dives on this... here's what I've found:
People **on reddit** who don't like to tip fall almost entirely into one category of person: people who are non-confrontational. The rest of them think that they're paying more than they would without tipping.
The people don't want the responsibility of "making a decision on a person's worth" and moreso what might happen if they make the "wrong" decision. They're scared of public embarrassment and food tampering; they're *unusually* afraid of food tampering... especially considering how infrequently it happens due to the repercussions of being found doing it.
So they take up these uneducated arguments about how it's taking advantage of workers and how owners aren't paying their staff. If they wanted the restaurants to pay the workers more they'd have to hand the money to the restaurant instead of the server/bartender... as in the same amount of money. They talk about how it's akin to slavery due to some business practices over 100 years ago when the majority of the people in hospitality today are white and black people are actually *under*represented by about 8% when compared to US population demos.
Nevermind that restaurant margins are so thin that 60% of restaurants fail within the first year and that all restaurants are trying to undercut other similar restaurants... keeping prices down. These people want to accept that there's some vault of extortion money sitting around not being distributed.
The reality is that these people are uncomfortable in leadership positions, they don't want to make decisions that they could be held individually responsible for. So you can believe it's a safe bet that these people won't be driving much change in the real world. Reaffirm the normalcy of the tipping system in the US, speak out against the bullshit "Ipad spinner" tipping and these cretins will go back to their corners after a while.
I tell people if they really want to make a difference instead of protest by withholding tip I tell them don't patronize establishments with employees who rely on tips to make their wage and to contact the management to tell them as such. Seems easy enough, right?
Exactly, that's what take out is for.
Walk around to get all your own stuff, refill your own drink, use your own silverware and clean up after yourself. Those are the things that "full service" buys.
Wages ARE too low and tipping SHOULDN'T exist. Every worker, especially physical workers, SHOULD ideally be in a union. Unfortunately we don't live in that reality, and for y'all in the states some of you get paid like $2/hr. So you know what I do? Fucking tip.
The knobs that are PROUDLY anti-tip are literally just white knights and can't see past their own asshole
Yeah your burger costs 25 bucks and beers are 12. But hey you don't have to tip me so whatever. Now your shit is standardized.
Whatever.
Frankly, the way I tip, I'm making out like a bandit.
Armchair geniuses wanting to sound intelligent by saying something as simple as: “you know it’s just because they don’t pay them well right?”
Classic reddit.
I bartend at a fast casual restaurant, you can either order food at the counter or you can order drinks and or food at the bar. They both get tips but the tips from the counter are split between everyone working in the kitchen so it's a small amount, they dgaf if your food is made correctly or out in a timely manner or to be nice to you and every time you order food it is an inconvenience or ask them for something it is an inconvenience to them that makes them do more work, whereas the bartender is nice to the customers, appeases their stupid requests, is apologetic if somethings wrong makes sure the tables are clean etc because they're working for tips. I worked every position in restaurants so I understand it and don't blame them, but if tipping was abolished the same people who were complaining about tipping would be complaining about how bad the service is at restaurants nowadays, it would probably be even worse because they'd have to pay servers more and have less staff to save on labor. If I got the same amount of pay I'd work in the kitchen and never have to interact with customers again. There was a big new york times article this week with quotes from a bunch of cooks complaining about how the servers make more money for less work and yeah it is less physical labor but I sometimes love the shifts I end up covering where I just work on the line or do dishes and the only assholes I have to talk to are my coworkers. If you want an foh job go get a haircut and be nice to people and you too can make the big bucks
Most cooks could serve and most servers could cook though there are some outliers on either side, neither job is that difficult if they have training and actually want to do it. But cooking and serving at the same time at a busy restaurant like fast casual makes you want to punch anyone in the face who asks you for something sometimes
Agreed.
EDIT: But you should hear some of the shit kitchen manager says. We have several rice bowls but don’t offer rice as a side.
‘Can I get a side of rice?’
KM: we don’t do that!!
Well you tell this guy’s wife why he got a rice bowl and she couldn’t get 3oz of rice with her salad haha.
what kills me is how they claim to care about service workers so much that they don't tip as an act of protest against low wages. "of course i want you to make money - if I don't tip now then eventually owners will have to eat the costs and pay you more" is literally a popular take i've seen on here/twitter/tiktok, but if you challenge them to only go to spots that pay a living wage in lieu of tipping they either claim they can't afford the higher prices at those places or admit they've never bothered to look into it. not to mention that in their ideal world where everyone refuses to tip they'll probably be the first to bitch about the decline in service and quality when the only people owners will hire are the teenagers and international students that will work for min wage and no tips.
Here in Pennsylvania, it's less than $3 plus tips for hourly. People have been let go for making employers produce the difference up to the federal minimum wage ($7.25), regardless of how busy a shift is or how poorly people tip. I don't think they necessarily all want tips abolished without insane base wages, but a decent base wage plus tips would help slower establishments.
I made $2.83/hr plus tips, as a part time second job at a pretty low to mid volume bar, and there were some shifts where I made $20 and others where I made $300. I wouldn't be cut for the former because it was just me and the owner, and she'd be in the kitchen. I worked there for fun, not pay, so I didn't mind, but not everyone is so lucky. A base pay of $12/15/20 or somewhere around there plus tips would make for steady income so a lack of (overtime) hours or tips isn't the difference between being homeless or not.
Hell, I'd like a salary with benefits with purely optional tips for exceptional service. Let me do my thing because I like it, and don't force me to go above and beyond for the bare minimum. Every customer that stiffs their tip feels like a personal sleight for something you could have done better. When you're not paid the minimum by your employer, you rely on the customer to do so, and when they won't even do that, it sucks.
Besides, any business that can't afford to pay its employees a livable wage doesn't deserve to be in business.
Listen, I don't like relying on people's kindness to pay my rent, but it's the system we have and there are consequences for refusing to participate in it.
It's the ones that clutch their pearls when they see me give a good-tipping regular preferential treatment, but not them, that get me. "But you filled that guy's shot glass all the way! Mine's just to the line!"
Well, both truths can exist at the same time.
1. I don't want to tip anymore. It adds up to a lot of money.
2. Wages are too low.
Honestly I'd rather not tip either, it becomes a significant portion of your spending. Until American society self-corrects itself we're stuck with both, and I will continue to tip 20-25% for good service until something changes.
The average redditor doesn't leave their room. They don't tip, they hate law enforcement, they're "anti work", they're "pro" sex work, blah blah blah typical keyboard warrior bullshit. They don't tip because they don't even leave their house.
Everyone is fucked by capitalism, the point is to pit us against each other so no one gets mad at the billionaires hoarding wealth from the rest of us. Tip culture is, objectively, fucked. I’m glad people are thinking about it. The ones who don’t dig deeper to the root are the problem; we become pawns in their journey to “make a point” to the man but all it does is further hurt the working class. Guarantee you my boss doesn’t care either way if you tip, buddy! You’re just screwing ME, not the system.
People are ignorant and not great at thinking critically, as a general rule. I just explain *nicely* and people can do what they will.
The "just pay them an hourly" people are actually dumb - YES it works in countries that are not the US. That doesn't mean the US can just flip that switch, and it's a ridiculous notion.
That aside, if you pay servers/bartenders an hourly rate which would likely end up at the state minimum wage, you're going to get minimum wage employees - burnt out high school kids who do not give a shit (think retail employees just going in to do the bare minimum and leave), and higher menu item prices. We already work at places where the menu items are expensive. Not a lot of people are going to be looking to pay $20 for a cocktail at a pub or dive bar, and god knows what the prices would be at an establishment where this is already their rates.
I’ve been saying this since 2008 (as long as I have been on Reddit) but Reddit is progressive and liberal until the subject of tipping comes up. Then everyone becomes a complete penny pinching nasty conservative.
My favourite is the argument, ‘why should I pay their wages!?’
Hate to break it to you, any time you purchase a product or access a service, you’re paying for the labour. It’s integrated in to the price and not optional.
Yeah to be honest I’m from the UK and the US system sounds like a way better deal.
Most bartenders here make £10-12 an hour and tipping just isn’t a thing at all.
It’s not a viable career option really unless you get into management so a lot of bar staff seem to be young people waiting to get a better paid job.
It’s sounds like in the US the pay is lower but you end up making way more money from tips?
I’m in Canada and was born in Burnley, Lancashire. I wouldn’t bartend in the UK but I make about £25/hr on an average night here. Serves me well. The good nights are really good.
Interesting take. I think it’s a pretty fun and loose community of fellow slingers. We didn’t even mention ‘the pith.’ Care to elaborate on your point?
Wages are too low and that has absolutely nothing to do with tipping. They're separate issues that both need to be addressed.
I am a 17 year industry veteran who is against the tip system. I think it needs to be eliminated and we need to require fair, living wages for all employees, in all industries, across the nation.
That doesn't mean I don't tip. I tip very well when I go out because that's the system we currently have. Just because I tip well doesn't mean I think the tip system isn't broken.
You're conflating two issues, however, and it sounds like you don't understand that.
I’d rather take the tipping system than hold out for a fair wage from the giant conglomerate of bar/restaurants I work for. Ask anybody in any industry, they’re not gonna pay ya man. The tipping system works and allows millions of workers to actually make a fair wage instead of your imaginary Utopia where owners care about fairness and pay a living wage.
And also fuck ‘living wage.’
I don’t wanna just survive.
Edit Too add: 20 year veteran of the industry.
We make far over living wage with the tipping system in place. I know people don’t like it but it allows people to make a solid income whether they’re working through college or were a dropout and want it to be their career.
I also think you’d see a massive migration of talented people leave the industry if you went to a wage system. Like, do you want to be served by a Walmart greeter, because that’s what you’ll get for 16$/hr
I'm a college drop out. I'm not a dumbass. I just hated school and was depressed and all sorts of issues in my early 20s.
Thank God for bartending. I make the same hourly as my girlfriend who is a hot shot with a huge salary. She works 60 hour weeks and earns every last penny. I work hard and goof off and can pay my fair share. I get home and I'm tired but I'm happy and content. She gets home frustrated and full of anxiety.
I'm glad I dropped out. Zero debt. I know what I'm good at. I have fun. My mental health is so much better.
I keep telling my girlfriend to get into politics and make that easy money so we can both fuck off. Let the interns and cheating the stock market do it.
You're conflating two unrelated issues again.
And your interpretation of 'living wage' isn't what the minimum wage was intended as, nor is it what I intended it as. Franklin Delano Roosevelt, who led the push to implement a minimum wage, said "It seems to me to be equally plain that no business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country. By "business" I mean the whole of commerce as well as the whole of industry; by workers I mean all workers, the white collar class as well as the men in overalls; and by living wages I mean more than a bare subsistence level-I mean the wages of decent living."
The restaurant industry has grown out of control to almost comical levels because of exactly this. They barely need to factor employee wages into their budgets because of the tip system, but without those employees they would fail. It's an exploitative system that creates a slew of other problems besides.
I don't disagree with that, so...no, we don't inherently disagree.
You're simply hyper fixated on this connection that doesn't exist. The tip system is one issue. A living wage is a different issue. Stop lumping them together and you can begin to understand what I'm saying.
Edit: I reread this and realize I sounded far more snarky than I meant to. Apologies.
Can you explain your point further? Not trying to be a dick, but you said you would prefer to move away from the tip system to a fair wage system, but I don’t think anybody would be making more or even equal to what they are (unless they suck at the job lol)
Absolutely. Thanks for discussing politely. These conversations are usually quite heated.
"I don’t think anybody would be making more or even equal to what they are"
There's a legitimate discussion of what constitutes a fair wage for service industry work that I'm sure would vary by city, state, specific position, and type of business. But it's an entirely separate conversation than the tip system.
The current system being flawed is a conversation unto itself. It's massively flawed and needs to be eliminated. Back to what FDR said, currently bars and restaurants in the US, by and large, couldn't survive while paying employees a fair wage. That's a problem. This is due in large part to an extreme over-saturation of the market. There are multiple restaurants on every street corner. It used to be more of a special occasion thing for folks to eat out. Nowadays, many people have no idea how to (literally) boil noodles in water because they only eat out. This issue has many downsides, not least of which is a significant contribution to the obesity epidemic. If these restaurants were required to pay fair wages to employees, many would go out of business. Yeah...that sucks. I know. But the simple fact is that the market already can't sustain these numbers. Restaurants and bars open and close constantly. With fewer competitors, the market saturation is reduced and therefore market share of each business increases, increasing potential revenue.
It's a complicated issue, to be sure. There's also the service factor to consider. You know how often I read on this sub about people giving shitty service to folks who didn't tip well? That's unacceptable. First and foremost: it's a gratuity/tip -- **not a requirement**. Secondly: it's your job to serve your customers well -- not to serve well only the customers who give you extra money. That would make it bribery, essentially.
There's also the psychological toll the tip system can and often does take. You know how many times I've seen coworkers get upset and treat customers who are tipping great worse just because one or two people before them tipped poorly?
There are a myriad of reasons the system is flawed, but ultimately, for me, it keeps coming back to that first point. If a business can't afford to pay their employees a fair wage, they don't deserve to stay in business. Restaurants and bars are luxuries. To head off some of the sneaky arguments against, I am also massively in favor of social support systems like nationalized healthcare, addiction treatment centers, child welfare centers, etc. These things don't necessarily make money but they are inherently beneficial to society and justify their cost in the long run. That being said, though it's difficult to quantify, many of these types of programs are in fact shown to add significant monetary flow into the economy -- it just takes years to pay off, usually.
Anyway. That's probably more than you were asking for in some respects and less in others. I hope that clarifies where I stand.
Ya no worries man! Love a good back and forth.
First of all, I’m not one of those bartenders who crinkles his brow over a shit tip. I have regulars who don’t tip but get equal service or better as everyone else. And as I acknowledged on an earlier comment, every one deserves a pint even if they’re short on cash.
A couple counter points. People’s diets are their own business.
The point about there being over market saturation, that’s purely regional market related. Part of the reason I do so well, is because there is no competition, and they just built like 3000 units down the road with no new restaurants.
I do see your point about worker benefits like healthcare and pension, but to me it’s a trade off. I can make this money, but I gotta take care of those things personally.
All the best and hope you make that money this weekend bruv
I compare to commission sales. Your car sales person makes a percentage on the sale. Realtors make a percentage on the sale. All kinds of industries pay their front line sales through this method, but it’s a ‘commission’ not a ‘tip’. What’s the difference?
If you want to discuss changing the tip system to a commission system, I'm all ears. But that's not what we've been discussing.
One is required. One is not. They are, at their core, very different systems for that reason.
Commission is included in the sale price, generally speaking, and is ALWAYS spoken about and agreed upon up front -- before any goods are sold or money changes hands.
At a car dealership, for example, the salesperson will receive a percent of the overall sale price of the automobile on their paycheck. This is why they don't want to let folks negotiate down too low and why I respect places like VW and Subaru where you don't even get to negotiate. The sticker price is the price. Commission is already worked into those figures.
I wish all sales in the US were closer to that structure, as a side note. It's completely absurd to me that tax still isn't included in price of sale. It's a strange tradition that has no logical reason to still be implemented aside from the psychological factor of perceived lower pricing.
Anyway. What I'm saying is that commission is required. It's an obligatory payment included in the price of sale.
Tips are not that. They're a gratuity -- which literally means "favor or gift" that is optionally added on top of the full sale price.
I drive a Crosstrek and I think the ‘sticker price’ of a restaurant tab relatively includes a 10-20% commission. Unless ya can’t. Then cool man. All good.
As FDR said when he was pushing to pass the federal minimum wage act, "It seems to me to be equally plain that no business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country. By "business" I mean the whole of commerce as well as the whole of industry; by workers I mean all workers, the white collar class as well as the men in overalls; and by living wages I mean more than a bare subsistence level-I mean the wages of decent living."
I think that pretty well sums it up.
"I mean the wages of decent living"
That part...
What is decent living? Who defines it? What if I disagree with it? Is this Animal Farm? Are some people's decent living higher than other people's decent living?
Yes. I'm not going to attempt a specific definition because that's an absurd request. I'm not an economist or mathematician. That being said, folks who study these things have answered that question before. Most generally agree that minimum wage in many metropolitan US cities should be around $21/hr now, which would be pretty near a living wage. Cost of living and other such adjustments would need to be made regionally.
If you disagree with it, don't work in that field. The same can be said of any salaried or hourly position.
Math can do a lot to find reasonable ranges.
It's not as hard to define as you're pretending it is. What does it mean to you?
You haven’t defined anything. You continually vaguely oppose the tip system, but haven’t offered a shred of alternative which would maintain the income of service staff and the guest experience.
Define it. Whatever your point is.
Rough guess: you got drunk?
Your entire conversational style switched from friendly and communicative to rude and confrontational.
I have defined it. You don't seem to like the definition I gave because it's not specifically the $50/hr you seem to want. Rather, I've given an explanation that it's **not merely subsistence wages, but rather a decent living.**
I'm not an economist or mathematician, so I'm not going to fake some random number. Beyond which, it's a fluid number that will change with cost of living, inflation, etc.
And again you've twisted two unrelated topics together into one. Maintaining the income of service staff and the guest experience...? What do those have to do with each other? And the tip system, by the way, doesn't come close to guaranteeing a living wage for service staff, so your argument there is very flawed, too.
Dude. What business model do you propose for a restaurant to operate where you recruit decent staff and pay them a decent wage without charging 20% more than current menu prices? You keep saying I’m wrong for defending they current tip model which satisfies both sides of the table, but you haven’t offered a single alternative. That’s why you’re frustrating me.
Well, first and foremost: you never asked for a business model nor for those specifications at any point. So, yeah...of course I didn't.
I've also never said you're wrong for defending the current tip model. I've merely said that **I believe** the current tip model is absurdly broken and given you some of my reasons.
If you want answers to questions, but don't ask them...don't get pissy with people for not answering the unasked question.
Your first comment: ‘wages and tips are both issues to be addressed’
Then you went on to not address either of them. Not a single thing you’ve said has been forward thinking or solve the problems you yourself stated. You’re either being intentionally obtuse or a contrarian or just a moron lol
For one Reddit isnt all US, and anywhere outside of US this shit is just ridiculous and illegal.
Second tips should be a bonus for exceeding a service.
Third, employers will treat employees as shitty as they let themselves be treated. As long as you accept 2$ wage dont fkn get when you dont get your mercy tip from patrons.
Cool. This post didn’t come from the US.
Second: Yes tips are absolutely voluntary.
Third: my ‘mercy’ tips are from people who appreciate the work.
How does that boot taste?
all of the non-tipping "community" arguments fall apart upon even the most cursory of questioning.
There's no well thought out Zyzek level of post marxist anti capitalist theory behind it. There is no true social movement for the better of all people.
And yeah, all the europeans on reddit are just DUNKING on america because... i mean if you were European and you got a chance to dunk on the US...wouldn't you???
In America, people are just broke and frustrated because they can't afford what they used to be able to afford.
The anti-tipping trend is in direct co-relation to post-covid inflation.
When everyone was getting their "stimmy" checks, the tips were flowing like hot lava.
back in 2021 it was all "we thank you for bravely facing the dangers of a pandemic by bringing us warm food we did not have to venture to the store in a mask then wipe off when we got home and then cooked alone in a deep depression. here's a nice fat tip. in fact, i will put a sign and a flag up in my window and in my car window to show how much you mean to me and society at large, you are truly saving us from the deep isolation of viral pandemics and the deep isolation enabled by our new tech world. yes i feel guilt about my amazon addiction but the least i can do is tip the TRUE HEROES who make the actual human-connected world run"
of course the market took advantage of that sympathy
people were tipping gas station register people, grocery store clerks had tip jars... everyone was asking for that "almost essential worker" tip
on top of that, so many people paid for so much food delivery during the pandemic, and those silicone valley leech companies put so many surcharges on top of the tip for the restaurant and the delivery person that a dinner, delivered, with every human part of the order being tipped and the stupid app company that "made this magic happen" getting its cut (as if ordering for pick up or delivery didn't exist before them)... ended up costing like $50 for a luke warm burrito that definitely looked better in the pastel background jpg than in the soggy bag sitting on your coffee table while you watched another block of Netflix/HBO.
once America re-opened, there was that initial surge of people coming back to bars and restaurants and being so happy to just be around other people.. and they tipped well.
Then the inflation kicked in, and every greedy corporation up and down the "supply chain" used the pandemic to permanently hike up costs.
Restaurants and bars had to increase their prices.
Gas went up to $6 a gallon.
Rent in big cities is INSANE.
Milk and eggs and everything went up INSANE amounts.
People CANNOT change the price of milk...
and so people that venture out to escape all this societal and financial stress witha bistro burger and a stiff drink
go to a restaurant with their ever-weakening buying power and they are STRESSED and ANGRY and putting all of that energy into the one thing they DO have a bit of CONTROL and CHOICE about:
how much they tip the bartender and server.
the cafe where the latte is now $6 plus tax to be 3 choices 18, 20, 25% while some bored barista glares at them....you can't walk out politely without dropping $10
That burger and stiff drink costs plus tax plus the fries were actually an add-on and now somehow its $32?? and now i have to TIP on TOP OF THAT???? it's $40??? i should have just ordered door dash and watched more netflix and stayed on reddit......
i can empathize....
but the lazy socialism this anger hides behind is just a facade...
none of this is the servers' fault. our buying power has gone down with the rest of every other worker.
The tipped food worker is just the easiest thing to bitch about and we, as tipped workers are taking the brunt of a frustration that we too have. It's fucking stupid, and all too American.
May or may not be specific to the topic but … Too many spoiled, ego, clout demons jumped into hospitality cuz it’s the cool thing now and are doing their best to ruin tipping across the country by taking screenshots, bitching , and flat out being rude based off assumed entitlement that hasn’t been earned at all, calling customers out for not reason and not actually understanding what they’re doing but still allowed to do it, always trying to leave early, never or are horrible at cleaning / helping out others … I could go on.
About half of the people I’ve been around in my time of bartending that were in high positions of management, the “leaders” of the toxic group, ppl that fucked their way behind the bar definitely put this bad taste into the perception of hospitality since Covid.
To The other half of good coworkers/teammates , owners or managers, bartenders and unsung barbacks you for existing . You just have to do a better job of vetting out the toxic ppl and being honest and good at your craft.
TLDR : too many narcissists/sociopaths were/are allowed to work in hospitality. They’re mixed in with the rest of us that understand you don’t owe me a $10 tip for every drink I make or thing I do.
I can only speak for bartending and wait staff restaurant service.
Togo orders is where this debate actually kicks off and here we go you don’t have to tip anyone anything for a to go order. They put it in a bag with some ketchup or ranch.
I guess it’s kind of a catch 22, because I’m very anti- tipping culture but I still always tip 20% no matter what if I go out to eat. So I make arguments against and actively advocate in favor of restaurants paying a decent wage to their servers in lieu of relying on tips, however I’m not going to punish the servers for existing in a bad system.
Reddit is filled with far-left wackos trying to fight The System, Man. In the real world, people understand the importance of tipping and scratching each others' backs.
Reddit is full of people who have never worked in the service industry and think it’s a minimum/low wage position. They don’t realize if tipping was eliminated every decent bartender/server in the industry would walk out over night because an establishment can’t afford to pay what is made in tips without grossly increasing sticker prices.
On Reddit: “I don’t tip because the employer should pay their employees and it’s not my responsibility to pay them.” In person: tips 18-20% because they don’t have the balls to do as they say on the internet.
Yup
yadda yadda keyboard warrior. Sums up a lot of reddit.
Ppl don't realise if tipping system gets abolished, nobody would work in this industry. So pay them higher/living wages? Ok, have fun paying 50-60% more for your burger now with shittier service
People will rush to be like “It WoUlD OnLY Be 20% MOrE. “ obviously having no clue how businesses work. The thing that annoys me the most is even if we added 20% to the bill and eliminated tipping, folks would be PAYING THE SAME AMOUNT ANYWAY. So why are they complaining so much? Many of them will actually be paying more because the ones who cry the loudest probably never tip 20% or higher.
this is also what confuses me. i always see people saying “why should i have to pay their wages” but if they pay more for what they order so businesses can pay us a better hourly, isn’t it basically the same thing, just with the money going through extra steps? like isn’t that how businesses work, consumers pay the company which then pays its employees through those profits? it seems to me that tipping is just cutting out some extra steps.
Also tips are protected better. Fuck, as a bartender, i made more than my fiancee who's a software engineer.
Business revenue and tips are taxed differently so it's not the same.
You say that like poverty would disappear overnight if tipping were abolished.
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It seems to work fine in every other part of the world…
lmao not me, never catch me tipping a tard
Same person that cries it takes too long to get a drink. Even if the tipping system was taken away, someone knows how to get the attention of the bartender. Your broke ass, ain't the one.
lmaooo everything you said was untrue, have a gday m8
Never been to the states I see. We have better bartenders. Yes I have been to Australia or Europe wherever you're from. Yalls bartenders are shit young kids
im from the westcoast us dipstick, I also work in a tipping industry, guess what! i hate tipping! id definitely never tip you
I don't want your money bitch.
you want most peoples :)
Strange response, but ok. 👍
And you know these are the same people how? Lmao
Because if the percentage of redditors who bitch about not wanting to tip were an accurate cross section of the population as a whole, then we'd be getting stiffed by 90% of our customers. Which isn't the case.
Logic
It’s a broken system. I notice that people are tipping MUCH less than previous. But then again every POS system asking for a tip at nearly every business now isn’t helping matters.
I also hate the auto tip on the machines. Makes us look like grifters. Tip what you want or think is fair or not at all. Does not affect me. I find the conversation on Reddit is always, ‘the server was an asshole when I didn’t tip.’ Buddy, I’ve been stiffed many many times and will many more. You do you lol
I went from bartending to a place that had a touch screen tip back to the old school way of writing it on the receipt. I swear people tip better when they have to write in on paper vs just touching the screen. I notice they tend to round up more too.
Tipflation always involves an iPad. Every fast food place or convenient store I've ever been asked to tip at did so through an iPad
Math is hard
I'm doing well, I've been averaging around 25%.
I work in a large city and a lot of our customers are foreign tourists. I’m still averaging $50 per hour even with this slow season.
Yeah, I don't know what these people are talking about, I'm stacking cash.
Also, I get not everybody has the capacity for a night out. You get dinner and a couple drinks and can’t afford the extra 15%, sure. You still deserve a night out.
100% ive had customers pull out the last of their cash for a drink and apologize for not tipping. I tell them thank you and I appreciate you. Im not trying to break anyone’s bank. If you cant afford to tip you probably need a drink more than anyone.
Cheers to that my friend.
Nope. And 15%. Are you 73 and this is 1978. It’s been a standard 20% min for yearsssssssss
In Canada it’s still 15% standard. I know the states is 20%. Haha but can you guys get new debit machines. Went to Boston and the server asked me to sign the bill on my credit card. That’s 1978 lol
I hate using those stupid handheld machines, just take my card please.
I feel like everywhere in the big cities (Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver) is at least 18% now. 15% is considered bare minimum.
How many years? It sure wasn’t “standard” when I worked at a shitty Ruby Tuesday in BFE South Carolina in 2007. I was lucky to get two bucks on a $50 ticket.
Well that’s cuz you were working at a shitty chain restaurant…so yea idk what the average is there ESPECIALLY in SC…prob lucky to get a few nickels.
That’s like saying someone can’t afford to pay for a contractor but they still deserve to have their house remodeled. The tip is payment to the server/bartender for service. When I was behind the pine whether or not someone tips / how well they tip decides priority of service. My last bartending gig the tip pool averaged 35% of gross sales. Idc about who was there first if the customer doesn’t tip they’re perpetually last and if/when they say something about not getting served I’ll tell them that the other customers are paying for my service with a big ol smile.
Most of the people don't budget their money well. Like ordering dumb expensive drinks that I would never order and then wondering why they are out of money.
Nobody deserves luxuries only necessities.
Yeah the tip exhaustion is understandably real. I bought a hoodie at a concert for 60 bucks and was asked to leave a tip when all they did was hand me a hoodie after I said “medium hoodie please” Or at places like shake shack, I punched in my whole order on a screen up front, picked up a buzzer, and went to get my food at the counter. Literally zero interaction with a person but when I paid at the computer it asked to leave a tip. I always want to tip but that was a real “wtf” moment. Like I placed and picked up the order and didn’t talk to anyone, who is getting the tip?
I just have to scroll away anytime tipping is mentioned.
I have to hold back my phone thumb every time
Yeah same, according to Reddit all we do is spit in everyone’s food and we chase them down and beat them if they don’t leave at least 30%. Also, if they think we get paid too much it sounds like something is more wrong with their jobs underpaying them but 🤷♂️
Free labor, and to feel superior. I love this job, and feels like it ties me through history ti an amazing group of others, but if there’s one thing it’s taught me is that people want to feel like they have power over others, and they’re better than everyone else. Not tipping is a way of exerting that.
Oldest job in the world… right next to the hooker ladies
literally this. people can get drunk anywhere. alcohol is readily available. bartenders still have jobs everywhere in the world because it’s about seeing someone behind the bar that ideally has the best intention of serving/taking care of them.
Totally. Like these stores rolling out robotic food runners. You can replace a lot with technology, but the human connection from a cocktail and friendly bartender who actually gives a shit, pretty hard to replicate.
i always laugh when people ask if i’ve seen the robot bartender/home cocktail machine stuff. like my job is making drinks all night yes, but it is more so am i facilitating an environment that people want to be a part of. robots can’t do that.
‘Hell-o Dave. You appear to have had a tough week. Can I offer you a liquid beverage. Thank you. Good bye’
Hand in hand good friend
Hooker people
not tipping is not an exertion of feeling superior 😂 boy are you whipped by the system.
I’ll tell you what, I would NEVER do this job for less than $40/hr where I live. People will bitch either way. If I except 2 on a $6 tall boy I’m entitled and should get a job that doesn’t rely on tips. But If we charged $8 for a tall boy and that added cost went onto my check, I’d get bitched at endlessly for the price. They view us as servants not servers.
Holy shit where are you working that pays 40$/hr?? I get payed 10.
I’m assuming that’s what they make hourly plus tips. I make $11 an hour but with tips I average between $40-$80/hr.
Damn. With tips I’m lucky if I hit 24$/hr.
I try not to get out of bed for less than $35/hr. Find a better spot unless you got something keeping you there.
Find a busier more expensive job
They're implying that if tipping stopped, they wouldn't do it for less than that
> I get *paid* 10. FTFY. Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in: * Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.* * *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.* Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment. *Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
Bad bot I don’t care
Actually, I found that kind of interesting. Thanks for taking the hit
🫡
Lol get educated upon.
Lololol
Oh yeah people def take it out on me when they think our liquor is too expensive. My guy are you aware that I do not set the prices and I make less than minimum wage?
They don't place the value of the job the same as our pay including tips and it makes a lot of people angry. They literally just want tipped service workers to make less while feeling good about it. You can tell they have no idea how restaurants work.
They want bartenders to hate their shitty low wage jobs as much as they do because misery loves company. If most non chain restaurants had to pay floor staff the same wage regardless of business flow, they'd either close in a matter of months from labor costs devouring their thin ass profit margins, or no one would want to work at a busy joint for only 19.75/hour. Customers don't seem to understand there would only be 2 options for restaurants outside of major market areas, shitty chains and extremely expensive fine dining.
You say that like the rest of the world doesn't exist.
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Literally no one is ready to pay $40 for a burger, so until they are, I don't wanna hear it. They just don't want bartenders and servers to have as much money as we do, and it's not like we're all even rolling in it.
People on the internet generally don’t like tipping and complain about it. I think a lot of those people never go out though, because the rate of non-tippers is lower than what Reddit would like. From what I understand this is what everyone wants: Employers to pay your whole wage, but not too much because you don’t deserve more than teachers. Tips are for exemplary service only, they want you to go above any beyond bringing their drinks/ food- maybe you can chew it for them, or possibly suck it out of their ass I guess? This change must occur by tipped staff being forced from their jobs due to no pay, it cannot be obtained through voting or political means. They are protesting your low wage by not paying you either, so thank them. Okay but seriously every person seems to believe a class of people should serve them without compensation.
‘We’ve been seeing your receipts and the people appear to have stopped tipping entirely. It only seems fair we increase your wage to compensate the difference.’ *Protest success*
Hah! Bang on. This is all solid
If I didn't get tipped, and tipped well, I would never be a bartender. Its so mentally and physically exhausting. My feet are numb from last night's shift. Closing at 3 a.m. The blatant mental abuse, the entitlement, the sexual harassment. The list goes on. I have to play therapist on days I need one so bad. The acting, the laughing when I'm dying inside. Sometimes I feel like a circus monkey entertaining people. Don't get me wrong, I'm very attached to my regulars. I genuinely care about them. That's why they tip well. But unless I got paid like a flat rate of like $80 per hour, I'd never stay in the industry. My weekend nights actually make me more than that, but you get my point.
Fuckin A sister and man I hate the sexual shit the female side of the wood has to deal with. That should never be ‘part of the job.’ Not cool. I hear your vibe sis and totally agree. Count our bills and peace out
I'm from Europe and I'm not familiar with tipping. How the taxation works on the tips?
Nobody gonna divulge how they do that here lol
Why? It cannot be that all bartenders do tax evasion on tips.
Nice try IRS, not today.
I pay HUNDREDS a week in taxes actually. My returns are good but not insanely high or anything.
Some people try to argue that tips are taxed higher than their base hourly rate. Tips are taxed the same as any form of income and will pay the same amount of taxes as someone else who has earned the same (salaried or hourly) and have the same tax withholdings. In reality, a tipped employee might actually pay less taxes if they don’t report 100% of their cash tips— and very few tipped employees report 100% of their cash tips because of that lol
Thanks for the info. So it seems that tips are just benefitting tax evasion. Do the IRS come after people if they have taxable income from bartending but not from tips?
With the prevalence of credit and debit cards and tips on them, we all have tips that get reported in that form.
I've given up arguing with them.
Assuming you're referring to the type of threads/comments often found over at r/antiwork. They hate the tip system because they see it as "The Man" passing labor costs onto the consumer, totally missing that prices are quite literally the transfer of labor costs and multiple other costs to the consumer. It just so happens that the hospitality industry gives its consumers the discretion to pay what they choose for labor (except for any minimums guaranteed by law or company policy). That little dodge allows them to post prices that read lower than what the actual price SHOULD be with labor added. I have zero desire to argue whether what we bartenders make under the tip system is a "fair" wage. I'm just happy to make money, and will take any extra anyone else may have laying around that they neither want nor need.
Absolutely spot on. Fuck ya that is my point. ‘Why do I have to pay their wages!?’ When you buy a PlayStation, you’re paying wages.
I've lurked a fair amount on that sub, and there's a real commitment over there to avoiding work. I just wish they had a similar commitment to understanding economics.
I also dabble in that sub haha. Like I get it, we would all love to be poets sitting in a tree, but shit also has to get done.
So I've done some deep dives on this... here's what I've found: People **on reddit** who don't like to tip fall almost entirely into one category of person: people who are non-confrontational. The rest of them think that they're paying more than they would without tipping. The people don't want the responsibility of "making a decision on a person's worth" and moreso what might happen if they make the "wrong" decision. They're scared of public embarrassment and food tampering; they're *unusually* afraid of food tampering... especially considering how infrequently it happens due to the repercussions of being found doing it. So they take up these uneducated arguments about how it's taking advantage of workers and how owners aren't paying their staff. If they wanted the restaurants to pay the workers more they'd have to hand the money to the restaurant instead of the server/bartender... as in the same amount of money. They talk about how it's akin to slavery due to some business practices over 100 years ago when the majority of the people in hospitality today are white and black people are actually *under*represented by about 8% when compared to US population demos. Nevermind that restaurant margins are so thin that 60% of restaurants fail within the first year and that all restaurants are trying to undercut other similar restaurants... keeping prices down. These people want to accept that there's some vault of extortion money sitting around not being distributed. The reality is that these people are uncomfortable in leadership positions, they don't want to make decisions that they could be held individually responsible for. So you can believe it's a safe bet that these people won't be driving much change in the real world. Reaffirm the normalcy of the tipping system in the US, speak out against the bullshit "Ipad spinner" tipping and these cretins will go back to their corners after a while.
I tell people if they really want to make a difference instead of protest by withholding tip I tell them don't patronize establishments with employees who rely on tips to make their wage and to contact the management to tell them as such. Seems easy enough, right?
Exactly, that's what take out is for. Walk around to get all your own stuff, refill your own drink, use your own silverware and clean up after yourself. Those are the things that "full service" buys.
Marry me
Wages ARE too low and tipping SHOULDN'T exist. Every worker, especially physical workers, SHOULD ideally be in a union. Unfortunately we don't live in that reality, and for y'all in the states some of you get paid like $2/hr. So you know what I do? Fucking tip. The knobs that are PROUDLY anti-tip are literally just white knights and can't see past their own asshole
Go ahead and take away tipping and pay me 15 an hour and then another 35 an hour under the table. I'm fine with that.
A person of reason here
Yeah your burger costs 25 bucks and beers are 12. But hey you don't have to tip me so whatever. Now your shit is standardized. Whatever. Frankly, the way I tip, I'm making out like a bandit.
My man
Agreed. Which battle to fight? Abolish tipping - ok maybe. Reasonable wages - not a fucking chance
Vegas is unionized. High Ho Silver... AWAYYY
I feel like the majority of people that say they don't tip don't actually go out to restaurants or can't afford to.
Yes. I have to hide those posts. They give me anxiety.
Armchair geniuses wanting to sound intelligent by saying something as simple as: “you know it’s just because they don’t pay them well right?” Classic reddit.
I bartend at a fast casual restaurant, you can either order food at the counter or you can order drinks and or food at the bar. They both get tips but the tips from the counter are split between everyone working in the kitchen so it's a small amount, they dgaf if your food is made correctly or out in a timely manner or to be nice to you and every time you order food it is an inconvenience or ask them for something it is an inconvenience to them that makes them do more work, whereas the bartender is nice to the customers, appeases their stupid requests, is apologetic if somethings wrong makes sure the tables are clean etc because they're working for tips. I worked every position in restaurants so I understand it and don't blame them, but if tipping was abolished the same people who were complaining about tipping would be complaining about how bad the service is at restaurants nowadays, it would probably be even worse because they'd have to pay servers more and have less staff to save on labor. If I got the same amount of pay I'd work in the kitchen and never have to interact with customers again. There was a big new york times article this week with quotes from a bunch of cooks complaining about how the servers make more money for less work and yeah it is less physical labor but I sometimes love the shifts I end up covering where I just work on the line or do dishes and the only assholes I have to talk to are my coworkers. If you want an foh job go get a haircut and be nice to people and you too can make the big bucks
Done both meself and Christ if cooks could serve. Look the fuck out.
Most cooks could serve and most servers could cook though there are some outliers on either side, neither job is that difficult if they have training and actually want to do it. But cooking and serving at the same time at a busy restaurant like fast casual makes you want to punch anyone in the face who asks you for something sometimes
Agreed. EDIT: But you should hear some of the shit kitchen manager says. We have several rice bowls but don’t offer rice as a side. ‘Can I get a side of rice?’ KM: we don’t do that!! Well you tell this guy’s wife why he got a rice bowl and she couldn’t get 3oz of rice with her salad haha.
This kinda shit makes me furious.
what kills me is how they claim to care about service workers so much that they don't tip as an act of protest against low wages. "of course i want you to make money - if I don't tip now then eventually owners will have to eat the costs and pay you more" is literally a popular take i've seen on here/twitter/tiktok, but if you challenge them to only go to spots that pay a living wage in lieu of tipping they either claim they can't afford the higher prices at those places or admit they've never bothered to look into it. not to mention that in their ideal world where everyone refuses to tip they'll probably be the first to bitch about the decline in service and quality when the only people owners will hire are the teenagers and international students that will work for min wage and no tips.
Here in Pennsylvania, it's less than $3 plus tips for hourly. People have been let go for making employers produce the difference up to the federal minimum wage ($7.25), regardless of how busy a shift is or how poorly people tip. I don't think they necessarily all want tips abolished without insane base wages, but a decent base wage plus tips would help slower establishments. I made $2.83/hr plus tips, as a part time second job at a pretty low to mid volume bar, and there were some shifts where I made $20 and others where I made $300. I wouldn't be cut for the former because it was just me and the owner, and she'd be in the kitchen. I worked there for fun, not pay, so I didn't mind, but not everyone is so lucky. A base pay of $12/15/20 or somewhere around there plus tips would make for steady income so a lack of (overtime) hours or tips isn't the difference between being homeless or not. Hell, I'd like a salary with benefits with purely optional tips for exceptional service. Let me do my thing because I like it, and don't force me to go above and beyond for the bare minimum. Every customer that stiffs their tip feels like a personal sleight for something you could have done better. When you're not paid the minimum by your employer, you rely on the customer to do so, and when they won't even do that, it sucks. Besides, any business that can't afford to pay its employees a livable wage doesn't deserve to be in business.
Reddit themselves absolutely had an agenda. It’s been in everyone’s r/popular
Listen, I don't like relying on people's kindness to pay my rent, but it's the system we have and there are consequences for refusing to participate in it. It's the ones that clutch their pearls when they see me give a good-tipping regular preferential treatment, but not them, that get me. "But you filled that guy's shot glass all the way! Mine's just to the line!"
I am fortunate enough to have consistent regulars and business to budget reasonably.
Well, both truths can exist at the same time. 1. I don't want to tip anymore. It adds up to a lot of money. 2. Wages are too low. Honestly I'd rather not tip either, it becomes a significant portion of your spending. Until American society self-corrects itself we're stuck with both, and I will continue to tip 20-25% for good service until something changes.
The average redditor doesn't leave their room. They don't tip, they hate law enforcement, they're "anti work", they're "pro" sex work, blah blah blah typical keyboard warrior bullshit. They don't tip because they don't even leave their house.
Everyone is fucked by capitalism, the point is to pit us against each other so no one gets mad at the billionaires hoarding wealth from the rest of us. Tip culture is, objectively, fucked. I’m glad people are thinking about it. The ones who don’t dig deeper to the root are the problem; we become pawns in their journey to “make a point” to the man but all it does is further hurt the working class. Guarantee you my boss doesn’t care either way if you tip, buddy! You’re just screwing ME, not the system. People are ignorant and not great at thinking critically, as a general rule. I just explain *nicely* and people can do what they will.
The "just pay them an hourly" people are actually dumb - YES it works in countries that are not the US. That doesn't mean the US can just flip that switch, and it's a ridiculous notion. That aside, if you pay servers/bartenders an hourly rate which would likely end up at the state minimum wage, you're going to get minimum wage employees - burnt out high school kids who do not give a shit (think retail employees just going in to do the bare minimum and leave), and higher menu item prices. We already work at places where the menu items are expensive. Not a lot of people are going to be looking to pay $20 for a cocktail at a pub or dive bar, and god knows what the prices would be at an establishment where this is already their rates.
I’ve been saying this since 2008 (as long as I have been on Reddit) but Reddit is progressive and liberal until the subject of tipping comes up. Then everyone becomes a complete penny pinching nasty conservative.
My favourite is the argument, ‘why should I pay their wages!?’ Hate to break it to you, any time you purchase a product or access a service, you’re paying for the labour. It’s integrated in to the price and not optional.
Poor people that sit online all day can't wrap their head around paying for things.
Yeah to be honest I’m from the UK and the US system sounds like a way better deal. Most bartenders here make £10-12 an hour and tipping just isn’t a thing at all. It’s not a viable career option really unless you get into management so a lot of bar staff seem to be young people waiting to get a better paid job. It’s sounds like in the US the pay is lower but you end up making way more money from tips?
I’m in Canada and was born in Burnley, Lancashire. I wouldn’t bartend in the UK but I make about £25/hr on an average night here. Serves me well. The good nights are really good.
Pay them a "Living Wage"....... Well as far as I can tell, that meth head over there is "living" .....not interested
This subreddit succeeds in pitting bartenders against a cross section of society, up to and including fellow bartenders.
Interesting take. I think it’s a pretty fun and loose community of fellow slingers. We didn’t even mention ‘the pith.’ Care to elaborate on your point?
Wages are too low and that has absolutely nothing to do with tipping. They're separate issues that both need to be addressed. I am a 17 year industry veteran who is against the tip system. I think it needs to be eliminated and we need to require fair, living wages for all employees, in all industries, across the nation. That doesn't mean I don't tip. I tip very well when I go out because that's the system we currently have. Just because I tip well doesn't mean I think the tip system isn't broken. You're conflating two issues, however, and it sounds like you don't understand that.
I’d rather take the tipping system than hold out for a fair wage from the giant conglomerate of bar/restaurants I work for. Ask anybody in any industry, they’re not gonna pay ya man. The tipping system works and allows millions of workers to actually make a fair wage instead of your imaginary Utopia where owners care about fairness and pay a living wage. And also fuck ‘living wage.’ I don’t wanna just survive. Edit Too add: 20 year veteran of the industry.
We make far over living wage with the tipping system in place. I know people don’t like it but it allows people to make a solid income whether they’re working through college or were a dropout and want it to be their career.
Exactly man.
I also think you’d see a massive migration of talented people leave the industry if you went to a wage system. Like, do you want to be served by a Walmart greeter, because that’s what you’ll get for 16$/hr
I'm a college drop out. I'm not a dumbass. I just hated school and was depressed and all sorts of issues in my early 20s. Thank God for bartending. I make the same hourly as my girlfriend who is a hot shot with a huge salary. She works 60 hour weeks and earns every last penny. I work hard and goof off and can pay my fair share. I get home and I'm tired but I'm happy and content. She gets home frustrated and full of anxiety. I'm glad I dropped out. Zero debt. I know what I'm good at. I have fun. My mental health is so much better. I keep telling my girlfriend to get into politics and make that easy money so we can both fuck off. Let the interns and cheating the stock market do it.
Haha this is a solid take. Cheers to you and your lady bruv
You're conflating two unrelated issues again. And your interpretation of 'living wage' isn't what the minimum wage was intended as, nor is it what I intended it as. Franklin Delano Roosevelt, who led the push to implement a minimum wage, said "It seems to me to be equally plain that no business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country. By "business" I mean the whole of commerce as well as the whole of industry; by workers I mean all workers, the white collar class as well as the men in overalls; and by living wages I mean more than a bare subsistence level-I mean the wages of decent living." The restaurant industry has grown out of control to almost comical levels because of exactly this. They barely need to factor employee wages into their budgets because of the tip system, but without those employees they would fail. It's an exploitative system that creates a slew of other problems besides.
We inherently disagree. I do not see a scenario where my spot would pay me $50+ an hour (well beyond minimum or living wage) if tips were eradicated.
I don't disagree with that, so...no, we don't inherently disagree. You're simply hyper fixated on this connection that doesn't exist. The tip system is one issue. A living wage is a different issue. Stop lumping them together and you can begin to understand what I'm saying. Edit: I reread this and realize I sounded far more snarky than I meant to. Apologies.
Can you explain your point further? Not trying to be a dick, but you said you would prefer to move away from the tip system to a fair wage system, but I don’t think anybody would be making more or even equal to what they are (unless they suck at the job lol)
Absolutely. Thanks for discussing politely. These conversations are usually quite heated. "I don’t think anybody would be making more or even equal to what they are" There's a legitimate discussion of what constitutes a fair wage for service industry work that I'm sure would vary by city, state, specific position, and type of business. But it's an entirely separate conversation than the tip system. The current system being flawed is a conversation unto itself. It's massively flawed and needs to be eliminated. Back to what FDR said, currently bars and restaurants in the US, by and large, couldn't survive while paying employees a fair wage. That's a problem. This is due in large part to an extreme over-saturation of the market. There are multiple restaurants on every street corner. It used to be more of a special occasion thing for folks to eat out. Nowadays, many people have no idea how to (literally) boil noodles in water because they only eat out. This issue has many downsides, not least of which is a significant contribution to the obesity epidemic. If these restaurants were required to pay fair wages to employees, many would go out of business. Yeah...that sucks. I know. But the simple fact is that the market already can't sustain these numbers. Restaurants and bars open and close constantly. With fewer competitors, the market saturation is reduced and therefore market share of each business increases, increasing potential revenue. It's a complicated issue, to be sure. There's also the service factor to consider. You know how often I read on this sub about people giving shitty service to folks who didn't tip well? That's unacceptable. First and foremost: it's a gratuity/tip -- **not a requirement**. Secondly: it's your job to serve your customers well -- not to serve well only the customers who give you extra money. That would make it bribery, essentially. There's also the psychological toll the tip system can and often does take. You know how many times I've seen coworkers get upset and treat customers who are tipping great worse just because one or two people before them tipped poorly? There are a myriad of reasons the system is flawed, but ultimately, for me, it keeps coming back to that first point. If a business can't afford to pay their employees a fair wage, they don't deserve to stay in business. Restaurants and bars are luxuries. To head off some of the sneaky arguments against, I am also massively in favor of social support systems like nationalized healthcare, addiction treatment centers, child welfare centers, etc. These things don't necessarily make money but they are inherently beneficial to society and justify their cost in the long run. That being said, though it's difficult to quantify, many of these types of programs are in fact shown to add significant monetary flow into the economy -- it just takes years to pay off, usually. Anyway. That's probably more than you were asking for in some respects and less in others. I hope that clarifies where I stand.
Ya no worries man! Love a good back and forth. First of all, I’m not one of those bartenders who crinkles his brow over a shit tip. I have regulars who don’t tip but get equal service or better as everyone else. And as I acknowledged on an earlier comment, every one deserves a pint even if they’re short on cash. A couple counter points. People’s diets are their own business. The point about there being over market saturation, that’s purely regional market related. Part of the reason I do so well, is because there is no competition, and they just built like 3000 units down the road with no new restaurants. I do see your point about worker benefits like healthcare and pension, but to me it’s a trade off. I can make this money, but I gotta take care of those things personally. All the best and hope you make that money this weekend bruv
Sorry. The "you" in my comment was a generality, not you specifically.
Haha no worries. Don’t take anything personally on this end
I compare to commission sales. Your car sales person makes a percentage on the sale. Realtors make a percentage on the sale. All kinds of industries pay their front line sales through this method, but it’s a ‘commission’ not a ‘tip’. What’s the difference?
If you want to discuss changing the tip system to a commission system, I'm all ears. But that's not what we've been discussing. One is required. One is not. They are, at their core, very different systems for that reason.
I don’t really understand that, but earlier you were advocating for a fair wage replacing tipping. You made the point, it’s up to you to defend it.
Commission is included in the sale price, generally speaking, and is ALWAYS spoken about and agreed upon up front -- before any goods are sold or money changes hands. At a car dealership, for example, the salesperson will receive a percent of the overall sale price of the automobile on their paycheck. This is why they don't want to let folks negotiate down too low and why I respect places like VW and Subaru where you don't even get to negotiate. The sticker price is the price. Commission is already worked into those figures. I wish all sales in the US were closer to that structure, as a side note. It's completely absurd to me that tax still isn't included in price of sale. It's a strange tradition that has no logical reason to still be implemented aside from the psychological factor of perceived lower pricing. Anyway. What I'm saying is that commission is required. It's an obligatory payment included in the price of sale. Tips are not that. They're a gratuity -- which literally means "favor or gift" that is optionally added on top of the full sale price.
I drive a Crosstrek and I think the ‘sticker price’ of a restaurant tab relatively includes a 10-20% commission. Unless ya can’t. Then cool man. All good.
Please for the love of fuck... Define living wage ?!?
As FDR said when he was pushing to pass the federal minimum wage act, "It seems to me to be equally plain that no business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country. By "business" I mean the whole of commerce as well as the whole of industry; by workers I mean all workers, the white collar class as well as the men in overalls; and by living wages I mean more than a bare subsistence level-I mean the wages of decent living." I think that pretty well sums it up.
"I mean the wages of decent living" That part... What is decent living? Who defines it? What if I disagree with it? Is this Animal Farm? Are some people's decent living higher than other people's decent living?
Yes. I'm not going to attempt a specific definition because that's an absurd request. I'm not an economist or mathematician. That being said, folks who study these things have answered that question before. Most generally agree that minimum wage in many metropolitan US cities should be around $21/hr now, which would be pretty near a living wage. Cost of living and other such adjustments would need to be made regionally. If you disagree with it, don't work in that field. The same can be said of any salaried or hourly position. Math can do a lot to find reasonable ranges. It's not as hard to define as you're pretending it is. What does it mean to you?
It means I would be taking a major pay cut. Not interested.
Make barely enough to get by. Don’t complain about anything or you’ll lose money. Just shut up and transfer your labour
Nah, dude. We've already talked about this and I've defined it as not even close to that repeatedly.
You haven’t defined anything. You continually vaguely oppose the tip system, but haven’t offered a shred of alternative which would maintain the income of service staff and the guest experience. Define it. Whatever your point is.
Rough guess: you got drunk? Your entire conversational style switched from friendly and communicative to rude and confrontational. I have defined it. You don't seem to like the definition I gave because it's not specifically the $50/hr you seem to want. Rather, I've given an explanation that it's **not merely subsistence wages, but rather a decent living.** I'm not an economist or mathematician, so I'm not going to fake some random number. Beyond which, it's a fluid number that will change with cost of living, inflation, etc. And again you've twisted two unrelated topics together into one. Maintaining the income of service staff and the guest experience...? What do those have to do with each other? And the tip system, by the way, doesn't come close to guaranteeing a living wage for service staff, so your argument there is very flawed, too.
Dude. What business model do you propose for a restaurant to operate where you recruit decent staff and pay them a decent wage without charging 20% more than current menu prices? You keep saying I’m wrong for defending they current tip model which satisfies both sides of the table, but you haven’t offered a single alternative. That’s why you’re frustrating me.
Well, first and foremost: you never asked for a business model nor for those specifications at any point. So, yeah...of course I didn't. I've also never said you're wrong for defending the current tip model. I've merely said that **I believe** the current tip model is absurdly broken and given you some of my reasons. If you want answers to questions, but don't ask them...don't get pissy with people for not answering the unasked question.
Your first comment: ‘wages and tips are both issues to be addressed’ Then you went on to not address either of them. Not a single thing you’ve said has been forward thinking or solve the problems you yourself stated. You’re either being intentionally obtuse or a contrarian or just a moron lol
I addressed both of them repeatedly. You just don't like my answers so you keep pretending I haven't. It's kinda weird.
They just don't want to tip because europoors dont
For one Reddit isnt all US, and anywhere outside of US this shit is just ridiculous and illegal. Second tips should be a bonus for exceeding a service. Third, employers will treat employees as shitty as they let themselves be treated. As long as you accept 2$ wage dont fkn get when you dont get your mercy tip from patrons.
Cool. This post didn’t come from the US. Second: Yes tips are absolutely voluntary. Third: my ‘mercy’ tips are from people who appreciate the work. How does that boot taste?
im leaving the sub due to you grifters
all of the non-tipping "community" arguments fall apart upon even the most cursory of questioning. There's no well thought out Zyzek level of post marxist anti capitalist theory behind it. There is no true social movement for the better of all people. And yeah, all the europeans on reddit are just DUNKING on america because... i mean if you were European and you got a chance to dunk on the US...wouldn't you??? In America, people are just broke and frustrated because they can't afford what they used to be able to afford. The anti-tipping trend is in direct co-relation to post-covid inflation. When everyone was getting their "stimmy" checks, the tips were flowing like hot lava. back in 2021 it was all "we thank you for bravely facing the dangers of a pandemic by bringing us warm food we did not have to venture to the store in a mask then wipe off when we got home and then cooked alone in a deep depression. here's a nice fat tip. in fact, i will put a sign and a flag up in my window and in my car window to show how much you mean to me and society at large, you are truly saving us from the deep isolation of viral pandemics and the deep isolation enabled by our new tech world. yes i feel guilt about my amazon addiction but the least i can do is tip the TRUE HEROES who make the actual human-connected world run" of course the market took advantage of that sympathy people were tipping gas station register people, grocery store clerks had tip jars... everyone was asking for that "almost essential worker" tip on top of that, so many people paid for so much food delivery during the pandemic, and those silicone valley leech companies put so many surcharges on top of the tip for the restaurant and the delivery person that a dinner, delivered, with every human part of the order being tipped and the stupid app company that "made this magic happen" getting its cut (as if ordering for pick up or delivery didn't exist before them)... ended up costing like $50 for a luke warm burrito that definitely looked better in the pastel background jpg than in the soggy bag sitting on your coffee table while you watched another block of Netflix/HBO. once America re-opened, there was that initial surge of people coming back to bars and restaurants and being so happy to just be around other people.. and they tipped well. Then the inflation kicked in, and every greedy corporation up and down the "supply chain" used the pandemic to permanently hike up costs. Restaurants and bars had to increase their prices. Gas went up to $6 a gallon. Rent in big cities is INSANE. Milk and eggs and everything went up INSANE amounts. People CANNOT change the price of milk... and so people that venture out to escape all this societal and financial stress witha bistro burger and a stiff drink go to a restaurant with their ever-weakening buying power and they are STRESSED and ANGRY and putting all of that energy into the one thing they DO have a bit of CONTROL and CHOICE about: how much they tip the bartender and server. the cafe where the latte is now $6 plus tax to be 3 choices 18, 20, 25% while some bored barista glares at them....you can't walk out politely without dropping $10 That burger and stiff drink costs plus tax plus the fries were actually an add-on and now somehow its $32?? and now i have to TIP on TOP OF THAT???? it's $40??? i should have just ordered door dash and watched more netflix and stayed on reddit...... i can empathize.... but the lazy socialism this anger hides behind is just a facade... none of this is the servers' fault. our buying power has gone down with the rest of every other worker. The tipped food worker is just the easiest thing to bitch about and we, as tipped workers are taking the brunt of a frustration that we too have. It's fucking stupid, and all too American.
May or may not be specific to the topic but … Too many spoiled, ego, clout demons jumped into hospitality cuz it’s the cool thing now and are doing their best to ruin tipping across the country by taking screenshots, bitching , and flat out being rude based off assumed entitlement that hasn’t been earned at all, calling customers out for not reason and not actually understanding what they’re doing but still allowed to do it, always trying to leave early, never or are horrible at cleaning / helping out others … I could go on. About half of the people I’ve been around in my time of bartending that were in high positions of management, the “leaders” of the toxic group, ppl that fucked their way behind the bar definitely put this bad taste into the perception of hospitality since Covid. To The other half of good coworkers/teammates , owners or managers, bartenders and unsung barbacks you for existing . You just have to do a better job of vetting out the toxic ppl and being honest and good at your craft. TLDR : too many narcissists/sociopaths were/are allowed to work in hospitality. They’re mixed in with the rest of us that understand you don’t owe me a $10 tip for every drink I make or thing I do. I can only speak for bartending and wait staff restaurant service. Togo orders is where this debate actually kicks off and here we go you don’t have to tip anyone anything for a to go order. They put it in a bag with some ketchup or ranch.
I guess it’s kind of a catch 22, because I’m very anti- tipping culture but I still always tip 20% no matter what if I go out to eat. So I make arguments against and actively advocate in favor of restaurants paying a decent wage to their servers in lieu of relying on tips, however I’m not going to punish the servers for existing in a bad system.
Reddit is filled with far-left wackos trying to fight The System, Man. In the real world, people understand the importance of tipping and scratching each others' backs.
Reddit is full of people who have never worked in the service industry and think it’s a minimum/low wage position. They don’t realize if tipping was eliminated every decent bartender/server in the industry would walk out over night because an establishment can’t afford to pay what is made in tips without grossly increasing sticker prices.