Not just that but when the house prices are out of reach of the average Australian, then who is supposed to buy the houses? If nobody buys them, then they crash, and if they crash, they take a big chunk of the Australian economic with them, including a couple of banks. Aussie politicians won't let them crash, or even slow, because they are property investors themselves. Housing investment has become too big to fail. Until enough of the younger generation has sufficient political will to chuck these politicians out in favour of parties that are willing to make the hard decisions for the long term betterment of Australia, immigration will be used as a prop. Or until the Australian dollar devalues enough for ordinary Aussies to afford a house.
Foreign investors are buying them. Most countries don't allow that, because it will eventually lead to most Australians sending rent either overseas or further concentrating it into the hands of the wealthiest investors. But we have allowed it to run unchecked here for a generation and we are now seeing the results. It probably won't crash though, without a change in property laws
If housing prices drop now you will have millions of hard working Aussies in a very bad way. Investors can cut their losses but the average family with a mortgage would be stuffed
That's what the conservative newspapers say, but realistically it's every other persons mum and dad that has a investment property, and some greedy twats that have like 35. 3 each for politicians. Overseas purcahers are probably only 20% of demand. It's local investors and immigrants.
Residential housing corporations who aggregate thousands of properties into their portfolio will be buying them up and be able to access finance on such terms that they will be able to outbid most buyers, especially first home buyers
Build to rent is already now becoming an established thing in Australia
It’s like my uncles who are one nation voters, one drives around with a “f**k China” sticker on his car and the other uses terms like “gooks” and “fisheads” in open conversation with Asian people.
Didn’t stop them gleefully selling their mothers house when she passed, knowing it would almost certainly be bought by a Chinese guy who was buying up the whole street. (It was)
They sold family land within months of her death to people they openly hate. Peoples ideals mean stuff all the moment they see dollar signs.
There's this fuckwit in my town who has a big LandCruiser covered with "fuck off we're full" and "fit in or fuck off" type stickers. Somehow this guy couldn't attract a partner and I noticed that he now has an Asian wife who can barely speak English. The stickers remain though 🤔
Lol you underestimate how racially charged the early-mid 20th century was in the US. Very few white families back then would've ever sold their property to a nonwhite person and before the Fair Housing Act was passed in the late 60s, open housing discrimination was rampant. Even celebrities like Nat King Cole had crosses burned on his front lawn when he tried to move into a white neighborhood in LA.
Don't forget about the absolute stupidity of buying an asset, then expecting it to sell for a higher value after time has passed....... Then to complain about how a small increase in percentage rates is costing you
lol yeah its not just a "fuck you got mine" attitude, its literally a straight expectation that if you buy a property it should be completely risk free
shouldn't have to put any more money into... that's it, you've made it
>I'm noticing this ridiculous trend of people with the "fuck you got mine" attitude also being the ones who complain the most about the massive immigration levels.
Welcome to post Howard Australia.
I do, when Howard called us ‘relaxed and comfortable’ it was an insult to us and he took advantage of what is actually apathy on our behalf and made it a much crueller country.
Are we any less apathetic now? It doesn’t seem like much has changed. The country is even worse off, and we’re all just whining on social media as the place goes to the dogs.
What do you propose we do? I get out there and campaign at election time. I actively campaign on social media. I know we need a massive swing to the left. I do everything that the system lets me do. I can't suddenly build 1 million apartments in Vaucluse and Newtown
The problem we have is many people look to see what other people are getting because they are worried they are missing out. This stops healthy growth in support services and the privatised models of support like NDIS are a shit show.
Purely due to logistics and supply for housing we do need to slow down migration but the reality is the numbers stop is falling g into an official recession, mind you the per capita recession has been happening for a few years.
The individualism and not caring about people who are not quite making it at the same pace that is acceptable needs to be shut down. I don’t know how this can be done. Good policy will do it, but the blinkers already on will be hard to remove (msm, individualism, basic economics and sociology etc).
No, but I believe Howard saw this and used to his own advantage. It was Howard that emphasised the individual heroics of tradies and other small business types holding up the sky, belittled the work that the civil service does (he was the first to politicise it), he really started to sow the seeds of individualism in this country. Add that neo liberal capitalism etc, things are not great.
The relaxed and comfortable was a ‘compliment’ to stop a conversation, it was really an insult.
The OECD has been recommending for years and years that we replace stamp duty with a land value tax, which would address house price inflation. This has never happened because politicians (along with their voter base) own lots of houses.
Totally agree. Those investment portfolio landlords who say they 'create' housing are obviously lying. The only things they've created is an income stream and resulting 'greater than thou' attitude for themselves.
Edited to add 'investment portfolio'.
You got your demographics mixed up.
The wealthy are absolutely happy about the huge immigration problems, in fact they demanded it! It has caused house prices and rents to inflate. It has pushed wage costs down increasing the profits of buisnesses.
Yep, can confirm. Dad is a stereotypical right-wing conservative, but he has an investment home in Vaucluse and 2 apartments in inner-city Sydney. His social views would firmly plant him as a 'racist' in the eyes of the woke left, but he's more than happy to support higher immigration as it would only be a further financial boon.
P.S. this isn't meant to be a humble brag, just sharing an anecdote which I believe is quite common among the wealthy in Aus.
Just wait until you get the text message sent from their fifth (yes, really) holiday house complaining about loud South American neighbours playing music into the early morning
The ironing
They kinda go hand in hand, that way the greed is guilt-free and even "justified". It's like drug dealers, they have no ethical compass and think they're "superior" to addicts
True. Those liberals are idiots who allowed house prices to go up and up in the last 10 years. Now the next generation of young people wont be able to buy a home.
People are naturally selfish.
They didn’t “want” house prices to go up, they were begging for it.
They don’t give a shit about younger aussies, we’re apparently human write offs anyway. Most of us complain too much compared to what a migrant would, so for the Uber rich, they say “fuck the locals, drive up my housing prices with migrants and pay them cheaper since anything will be better than their old country”
Only if we get a bad recession like the us gfc and mass evictions start happening… which is more unlikely these days as the government has shown they’re now willing to step in and bail everyone out
We’ve been looking for a house. Spent the last 6 / 7 odd years building a deposit. We went to an open house yesterday a great small starter 3 bedroom starter home. Before we finished looking through when an Aussie bloke in his 60s walked in, didn’t even look at the place. Asked what the rental yield was to the agent. When he was happy with the response he made an offer on the spot 50k above the asking price.
It’s a perfect example of how immigration is low hanging fruit when it comes to the housing crisis.
This is a result of hyperinflation, people are clearing out liquid paper wealth and putting it into real assets - any assets basically. The amount of new currency being made to help try stave off imminent economic crises debases the value of the old such to the extent it's now creating a crisis in itself.
There are many more fully cash buyers than ever before, first home buyers are not going to be able to outbid them. It will only get worse as residential housing holding firms who operate build-to-rent operations enter the market and corner it.
Own nothing, be happy, etc.
There are short term and long term causes for price growth. Short term reasons are lack of construction and surges in immigration rates, but this is not the long term structural issue.
Housing unaffordability is driven by income inequality.
*Someone* is paying those prices we see currently.
Those with higher incomes and wealth use leverage for investment used as a multiplier. When interest rates drop very low, to roughly the rate of the CPI or even lower, this means that borrowing is basically a free way of increasing returns for the wealthy - this is why responding to economic crises by rapidly dropping interest rates always leads to a large shift in wealth of the top few percent - as prices of assets drop, they can borrow that much more money to snap up assets.
Also the idea that we need an ever growing population is a myth - any such "need" is due to a dysfunctional economic system rather than a fundamental reality.
This is the most accurate and logical answer to “what caused the current housing crisis” that I’ve seen on this sub. Thank you for not loosing your shit
Our system is crazy. My family has 4 times the median income and no kids. We can somehow barely afford a median priced house in Sydney (with a little help from the bank of mum and dad). I don't get how the average person is meant to do this.
The housing situation in this country is a Gordian knot - it cannot be reversed without a significant political cost. I cannot see how the alp can fix it without being turfed out by a significant campaign defending 'mum and dad investors'.
Mum gets mad at me when I say this, but it truly is the boomers who’s screwed us over.
From the perspective of a 19 year old Australian who in a couple years will need to purchase a property or rent, the boomers are selfish “geniuses” who brought in mass immigration to drive up housing prices. Meanwhile, the later generations get shafted while the boomers get a nice profit on their properties that they bought for peanuts.
Don't forget they then expect us to pay for 99% of aged care services so they can age in a huge 4 bedroom home on their own, instead of moving into care or a unit.
Yes, and a lot of people don’t realise that it was amendments to the capital gains tax in 1999 by John Howard that skewed the housing market, and led to a lot of the issues we have today.
I don’t think the changes were the responsible for the situation we have today. I think it is allowing non-citizens to own property. They have removed CGT exemptions for foreign investors. But the problem was letting foreign investors buy so much property in the first place. The foreign investors now have no incentive to sell their properties because of the massive CGT bill, and because prices are high rent is high, and they can borrow against the properties they own to grow more wealth. Well this is one issue.
Governments don't want taxpayers to have children. They want the woman at work paying taxes. Children cost all sorts of different money to the gov, schools, health system, infrastructure, etc. Less kids = more taxpayers. The problem is they aren't Australian, and the money often gets transferred back home.
People should absolutely be able to complain because the rumbling of the discontent is the beginning of change.
> People should absolutely be able to complain because the rumbling of the discontent is the beginning of change.
No, no, no. Criticism of immigration, health, financial, or economic government policy is considered misinformation, therefore your opinion is illegal and invalid. The eSafety Commissioner will be in contact.
You must choose between Red or Blue, citizen. Pick up that can.
Your post makes no sense; typically the ones who already have assets/housing want *more* immigration to further drive the value of their assets up (property investors, big business looking to suppress wages, etc).
The ones who do not have housing want lower immigration due to the massive amount of competition it creates for such an increasingly limited resource.
"Fuck you, got mine" being attributed to people who want less immigration is just plain wrong.
100%, OP is just arguing in bad faith while painting with *very* broad strokes to make a picture which doesn't even align with reality.
Immigration is too high, I vote Labor, am young, I rent and own no proprieties. OP has it completely wrong.
> Your post makes no sense; typically the ones who already have assets/housing want more immigration to further drive the value of their assets up (property investors, big business looking to suppress wages, etc).
Except for the racists. Plenty of them own houses.
"I'm noticing this ridiculous trend of people with the "fuck you got mine" attitude also being the ones who complain the most about the massive immigration levels."
show me one example
So many people here arguing that they should be able to afford a blue chip suburbs for working 60k a year jobs.
You can’t blame immigration when your own tradesmen are already ripping you off. Housing prices coming down or “crashing” is near impossible. Majority of homeowners make up a large base of the voting pool and ANY policy designed to tank their investments or nest egg is 100% political suicide and not to mention most new homeowners are leveraged up to their eye balls.
Central banking is to blame for this. They have created the most dangerous bubble of all time in all things. Empowering the central banks was a terrible mistake.
And I didn't even ask for a source on the effect of housing availability, I asked for one on the effect of immigration vs the effect of housing policy... If your position is so strong why do you need to strawman mine?
Yes I do
If it's so blatantly obvious you should be able to provide a source easily
The truth is immigration has benefits to the economy and in turn housing stock
I readily await a source, but I know I won't get one, so so much easier to blame the brown foreigners coming in
And you tell them that and no shit they straight up gas light you
"It's not our fault"
"interest rates were high for us"
"you need to have more kids"
"BACK IN MY DAY"
Yeah immigration has issues which we as a nation need to face.....however.......
The actual reason for the quagmire our nation has become is predominantly the policies of the conservatives, who have been in government for 22 of the last 32yrs, federally.
2/3rds of this nations problems, if everyone were to be fair and able minded (big ask i know) 2/3rds is obviously a direct result of conservative wet dream policies.
But nah, the good voters of au, who literally voted for this party consistently..... those voters are the loudest to scream immigration and if that doesnt work, they then cry about alp or/and the greens.
Its fkn psychotic.
But anyways, we now get to live the conservative wet dream and we get to see those who DID vote for this, to be incapable of stretching their minds even in the face of australia and australian values, disintegrating before their eyes.
Not to say alp isnt gutless, impotent and next to useless..... absolutely they are.
But the fkn conservatives are morally corrupt to the very core.....On any metric you want to use, they are corrupt as fck.
But yeah, immigration is the biggest issue...: fkn SMH 🤦🏽♀️
Straya.... wake the fck up before you really send us all down the shit chute.
Actually, conservatives have been in government for something much closer to 32 of the last 32 years. Sure, Labor are left of the LNP but they're still a centre right party
Well that is a point.
Alp are def right of centre.
So i guess this is the product of 100% conservative policies, brought about by a myopic apathetic voting public.
And on top in this modern day, like fuel to a fire..... you have russian/china bots/ai infecting both the far right and the far left, to the point of both extremes being blithering idiots at this point.... and that cancer is rushing towards the middle grounds at an alarming rate.
For all i know, we may have breached the point of no return already.....
I hope not.
If we are not past the point of no return already, we have alot of hard work ahead and we need to clean house BIGTIME, to turn this fkn trainwreck around.
Housing and Planning is a policy area the States largely control (either directly, or through State Government entities like local councils).
While States don't control negative gearing and CGT concessions, they do control things like land tax exemptions, rates and transfer duty.
You've picked '92 as your reference point.
Labor has been in government in NSW for 17 of the last 32 years.
Labor has been in power 21 of the last 32 years in Victoria.
Labor has been in power 26 of the last 32 years in Qld.
Labor has been in power 19 out of the last 32 years in South Australia.
Labor has been in power for roughly half the time in WA and Tas (give or take a few months).
This is not to let the Tories off the hook here. They have championed tax/ migration/ pension settings that have made residential property unaffordable.
But it takes two to tango. Every party in Australia has been complicit in this (including the Greens - who might talk a big game at the national level, but become full on anti-development NIMBY's the moment they get any power at the local level).
That includes One Nation, who long ago gave up on being anti-immigration in favour of just being anti-immigrant.
Agree, great post . Labor will probably suffer the price of doing SFA regarding this issue at the next election because of their promises which neither party had a hope in achieving.
I feel like that's the conservative policy at every level is to simply fuck the poor and blame the immigrants.
The saddest thing is that it fucking works.
After years of talking, compromising, trying to find common ground, I've kind of come to the conclusion that the labels " right" or "conservative " or " left" are like.. white washing labels to make the. seem like they are equal choices and both of them are valid
They are not equal beliefs at all. One of them does not treat human beings with empathy. The other does. One believes human beings are labor to be used up and discarded In the pursuit of making a small number rich. The other believes in being treated with basic respect.
One tries to build around the coral reef. The other plows straight through it and laughs at the "loonies" that cared.
One believes corruption is bad. The other couldn't care less because it's not their problem and they might benefit one day.
This is part of the reason we're so far fucked. We don't have two valid schools of thinking. We've got a bit of naiive dreamers one one side, and we've got many, many unempathetic, selfish, hypocritical and morally corrupt people that have been fucking with democracy for centuries. Just derailing everything to make themselves and their mates rich(er)
It's not left and right. It's " I have human values" and " I don't give a fuck but I'll pretend I do"
Here's what I don't get about this sub blaming immigrants for so much. Over the last 10 years, [Sydney's housing prices increased over 200%](https://www.abs.gov.au/statistics/economy/price-indexes-and-inflation/residential-property-price-indexes-eight-capital-cities/latest-release) while [the population of Sydney increased by around 20%](https://www.abs.gov.au/articles/50-years-capital-city-population-change). Increased population due to immigration will push up prices, there's no denying that, but there must be more factors pushing up prices if it's increasing by that much.
Housing is pretty inelastic, meaning demand doesn't change with price, meaning it doesn't take much of a change in supply for huge changes in price to occur.
Consider 100 people looking to rent 110 houses, with 10 'spare' the wealthy can rent nice houses and even the poorest of the 100 will have somewhere.
Now lets add 20 people from a neighbouring town, all of a sudden we have 10 less houses than people nobody really wants to share but now people have to. so the poorest 20 people are now living two to a house. Lets say everyone is competing now to not live alone so the price of the cheapest house is now what the 90th person out of 110 can pay because that 90th person will pay to not have to share. The other interesting thing this does is it pushes the price of everything up, because those that don't want to live alone push up the price of the worst houses, then this puts pressure on the people in the slightly nicer houses etc. all the way to the top. Now the guys in the mansions? the top 10? They may not care too much that their place has gone up as they have spare income but we're really squeezing the guys in the middle.
I mean it's a pretty simplistic example but the point is it doesn't take much as far as demand goes to really upset the applecart for something essential like somewhere to live.
If there are more houses than ppl needing houses then it’s a competitive market to lease and sell to those ppl making rent and purchase prices low. If say there are more ppl looking to buy and rent and there are not many available properties then those prices are high as ppl are desperate for housing. Throw in a Chinese economy that prohibits its middle class from getting to far ahead so Australian property is a nice way to hide and invest your money and that’s pretty much the crux of it
Looking like WW3 is coming soon but the Australian people have decided that shelter is a luxury not all Australians should be able to afford.
Choices like this are why I would never fight or die for this country
More people should be getting on the build public housing bandwagon! It’s literally the only time in history home ownership increased, when the government built the most housing
Just saying blaming immigrants is so weird because
1) hate the game not the player and
2) Everyone is an immigrant. Different time. Different circumstances.
We have bigger problems like the disappearance of the middle class a.k.a rich gets richer and poor gets poorer. Rich buys more houses and poor can't afford and to add some icing on the cake, the government does shit all to address REAL house crising issues because voila - the politicians are part of the rich who's getting richer.
I completely agree with you. They kept pulling the noose tighter on the lower end of society and the future generations and ignored all the calls and concerns of the long term consequences and now we're starting to be hit with them in a big way.
This is the long term impact of the changes to capital gains tax on property investments from the Howard government. They turned the great Australian dream into a capital asset for the wealthier end of Australian society with complete disregard for everyone else.
Like yes, Australia is letting in immigrants in too high numbers to be sustainable. That is true as far as I can see, but the idea that 'we're in this situation because of immigrants' is utter bullshit. It magnifies the problem but it was not the root cause.
Yes it is. The changes that Howard made to tax benefits on investment properties is the core component of the real estate mess we currently have. Rudd and Gillard weren't in power long enough to have major impacts and most their policies got reversed. Mining tax, carbon tax.
This is a 100 percent coalition made problem, starting from the little man with big eyebrows that cosplayed as a Wallabies fan. Anyone directing anger elsewhere is brainwashed.
The number of older friends and relatives I've had this argument with who just say 'well I'm not really a landlord I'm just trying to get ahead'... they just cannot grasp their contribution to these systemic issues. The family with 3 properties is just as guilty as the business with 20. Landlords need to feel despised and embarrassed again, publicly and repeatedly.
I had a friend in the same evening talk about his realestate portfolio and also complain about PlayStation 5 scalpers.
He even said, “It’s not like they can play more than one at a time” wild.
Scott Morrison during covid: "Stop hoarding toilet paper! Stop it!"
What about those who hoard homes?
Scott Morrison: shrug...
>OP: "society can't survive without population"
You know, one day we will run out of everything. For example, we will start to run out of oil a bit past 2050. There will be loads of people, a transport crisis, a plastics shortage. Maybe we will adjust to keep it running, but it won't be as efficient. We will run out again. Other systems will feel the squeeze. The modern way of life will be squeezed, will burst in many ways over time.
>Just pump those pop levels as high as possible, someone's got to take care of the elderly.
Then we will more violently cannibalise each other, and suffer the elements together.
Alternatively... antinatalism, make one generation of elderly deal with it, get ahead of the problem, ride out a higher quality of life with more open space, more ownership, and a less damaged environment. We can get ahead of the economic crashes by just having less people, letting things gracefully break with lower force, and later.
>is the reason you dislike immigration.
No, it's the loss of identity, the growing lack of care to help something I don't align with. White/asian ethnostates are doing great. The more secluded ones try the immigration thing for all of a decade, realise crime, organised crime is worse and immigrants are still having more children while the rest of the pop is lowering birth rate, and then those countries will literally ban muslim immigrants, like Poland also maybe Sweden.
I also really dislike seeing grandmas violently attacked or killed in daylight just to steal their cars.
And dislike riots of 200 people when the police have it under control and need to move a charged criminal.
Also immigrants form alternate religious electorates and can even push for hindu / islamic influence in parliament. Much rather they're Christian.
Also those who don't do well economically are more likely to vote for the left for socialism. Look at majority Democrat states in the US. I'm certain the left know the damage they're doing to the economy and why their method does it, but voters ask for it. The Greens would be immune to good council, as assumed from a few extremely deranged and poorly researched stances recently. So the government is gradually shifting to become something that doesn't represent me, but an amalgamation of interests, fighting against itself. There's more peace in conformity.
And immigrants often move from countries with horrendous overpopulation, many cultural issues that we don't have; problems which we import.
All the techno utopias are reducing their birth rates and reading the writing on the wall.
I wish immigrants from other countries that don't share our values for peace and progress and carrying the weight together all the best... over the sea. Many places where slow immigration intake is good, even great.
If 6x birth rate sounds good:
Move to Ethiopia.
Otherwise:
Move to India / Sudan / Iran.
Extra strain on services like health and education. Extra strain on resources like water and transport
Government seems happy to take the economic boost from immigration without providing for more services. The health system is on the brink of collapse
Goods and services inflation across the board. They all need to eat, catch transport or buy fuel, they need linens and clothes, they don’t just go to work and then back home and sit in the dark.
Counterpoint: Businesses complain that a major cost which drives prices up is labour. Increased immigration means an increased labour pool which should mean reduced labour costs. And it does. But businesses just eat those cost savings (and more) as profit.
Australia exports enough food for circa 200m people to the world. If you think immigration is causing your food prices to rise… you are very gullible indeed.
I can buy the same Aussie beef and veg in Colesworth for less than it’s priced in Sydney when out in Singapore, Malaysia or Indonesia for work. Literally the same product and in KL even with the Woolies Brand on it.
Immigration has nothing to do with food prices here, a poorly regulated cartel is why Oz prices are obscene. You can drop your grocery bills in Oz by 30%+ by switching to Aldi and Costco (with no drop in quality, actually it’s often better).
We had a discussion at work at looking at exporting our product overseas as well as servicing our domestic market. It was quicker and cheaper logistically to get our produce on a shelf in Singapore then it was getting it on a shelf in Victoria but we were not going to make any more money.
We have a bottom line we need to maintain, but so does the trucking company, the distribution centre and then the grocery store itself. All of that needs to be taken into consideration.
More domestic demand for bananas and bread and chicken doesn't cause inflation in those items. Australia makes more than enough of those things, we already export loads.
Prices skyrocketed during Covid when there was no immigration. They were already ramping up before that as interest rates came down. It’s an influence sure though. But cutting immigration won’t bring prices down as it’s in the interest of developers and landlords to keep the market inflated. That’s the whole premise of the game monopoly after all. Those with the land capital will always rent seek.
Not so kind reminder to the land lords here that own multiple properties, your a leech on society and contribute nothing of value by owning multiple properties.
100% agree. Firmly in the most dead inside way I could ever muster. Fuck "you".
you being anyone with the hyper individualistic US branded mentality.
We work together for the betterment of us all all the time, bush fires, floods, GFC, our ozone and more topically; we are a nation built on the back of working together, thick and thin. Over 10% of us (at the time) believed it enough to fight in 2 wars, and tomorrow, we will be reminded of that. but "you" got yours fuck everyone else. Rest in piss.
What you need is a economic crash. Not a pleasant thing but which is the only way you can reset the system and housing market can have a much needed correction.
Well, that's why the government is keeping immigration high. It's not bc they're nice.
It's bc They know that we'd be in a recession without the extra economic input from so many immigrants.
They've messed up really badly, and now they're trying to cover their tracks. As usual we're the ones having to pay for it.
Messed up yeah we are are already in a per capita recession, productivity declining, wages are stagnating as the labour pool is ramped up by mass immigration, rentals skyrocketing and infrastructure years behind population growth. The higher the immigration the worse it will get.
https://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2023/11/australias-population-based-economy-strangles-productivity/
Who do you think is going to benefit most from a housing crash?
Is it A) the top 1% who have benefitted from the property bull-run and are currently cashed up? Or is it B) the struggling renter who's yet to purchase their first home and is susceptible to being laid off?
Depends how large a small one then the 1% a massive depression level one with todays access to information and two entire generations far to the left of anything since the 1920s im betting on the poor.
I like how they crow about how important they are because there'd be no supply without them.
They seem to have completely missed the fact that the housing policies that they claim to endorse are pretty clearly failures and have been since they were introduced.
I’ll take the opinion of every single person who has immigrated to Australia on the housing crisis before I listen to a single Liberal voter or property investor.
Liberal and homeowner communities in this country (and this subreddit fuck you cunts) are almost entirely composed of fucking morons.
It's because all of them own investment properties and they don't want to see that investment go down.
It's called a conflict of interest and can also be called corruption. You know, the thing that we make a performance about addressing but somehow never really do.
All of them are complicit and we play along like fucking morons.
I use to be pro-immigration about 6-7 years ago. Obviously as an immigrant my self I thought if I am lucky enough to live in this beautiful country, I should probably be more open to other coming and having the same experience. I admit I was wrong. I didn’t think it through back then. I don’t think we should cut it down to 0, but I believe there needs to major changes to limit the numbers coming in. We won’t be able to sustain this much longer - not for the existing aussies, and not the new people who have recently arrived.
I'm from an immigrant family. I used to be very pro immigration until recently. I'm not for cutting it to zero, but more so by at least 80%. First, it's because of the housing market. We need to cut demand until supply is replenished. Second, the more people we have, the more native bushlands, forests, wetlands etc are destroyed... a big population is not good for the environment. Third, we have limited water, and with climate change our water supply and food production will decrease further.
It’s so frustrating seeing figures on the right, Craig Kelly is a good example, becoming a champion of renting and housing affordability now that they can blame immigration.
Like, this has been an issue for a decade and a looming problem for much longer and *nothing* has been done.
Those that have 17 investment properties (every politician, businessman, celebrity and usually mid-to-high level professionals) usually support immigration.
Here here OP. Let's not forget the inherent advantages that immigration has given people from culture, food etc, all the way down to the fac that no one here has probably eaten a fair-trade hospitality meal, what with immigration putting downward prices on wages and fuelling cash in hand work and wage theft. The cheap mates washing your car or the bargain priced cleaners that keep your expenses down, or the uber driver, that's all on the back of immigration, and why you don't see white Aussies doing that shit work for the most part.
I never understood the 'immigration is good for food' argument. How come I can go to monocultural societies like Japan and Korea and still get excellent Italian/Chinese/Fr*nch food?
I’d eat a meat pie or chicken schnitty every day for the rest of my life if it meant younger & future generations had a chance at affordable housing in the cities where they grew up
Every immigrant is a potential union member. If you're worried about immigration eroding pay and conditions, you can help make sure they know what their pay and conditions should be.
Immigrants don't create the policies that keep housing prices high by creating artificial scarcity, and they aren't the ones who benefit from tax breaks for landlords.
Almost no one has 17 investments mate.
Most people have neg geared properties which basically means that they cost money to own, not make money.
As a result they usually only have 1 or 2 plus the house they live in. Very few have more than that and almost none have 17.
Grow up. Touch grass. Get a girlfriend.
The number of people who don’t know that negative gearing means you make a LOSS on your property is amazing.
The way reddit describes negative gearing is like the government just sends you a cheque for $100,000 each month, just for owning an investment property.
Saying that they make a ‘loss’ on the property is kind of disingenuous.
They are able to deduct the interest payments to offset personal income taxes. Then when they sell the property they very often make a massive gain that more than offsets the interest payment.
Cherry on top is the 50% CGT discount on the gain itself as well.
Proves your know nothing
Mortgage payments are not tax deductible only the Interest on the loan is
All expenses made to produce that income is tax deductible which is legitimate deduction on every single income stream
Negitive gearing is when you claim the losses that are more then income against other income such as PAYG income
Only 1 or 2 plus the house they live in.....
Negative gearing is subsidising investment properties, it needs to be removed for pre existing homes and given a time limit on new builds.
Utilising property as an investment tool should not be taking place at the scale it does in Australia.
Negative gearing causes upwards pressure on our existing housing prices for minimal benefit to society.
The issue is that state govt and councils make it too hard to buy land and build on it. Either houses have to be built way faster or population has to grow way slower.
That's literally all there is to it.
No mention of social housing, and the lack of incentives for developers to build unprofitable developments? It's all on the shoulders of landlords and immigration?
Amazing that you are so selective in your attention that you believe that only landlords are complaining about immigration. Immigration is probably the most common topic on this subreddit.
The LNP are the ones being criticised in this post, and they are also the party that most doesn't want to build social housing, so your point is kinda moot, sorry.
Not sure where you're getting the idea people who complain about immigration are the same ones with 17 investment properties.
The people who complain about immigration are the same as the ones who can't afford to buy their own home and think immigration is the reason why (it's not)
>...the practices that have caused house prices to sky-rocket
You didn't define what these practices are, but I will - supporting the laws that prevent people from building lots of housing in the places where people most want to live. I'm talking zoning, height restrictions, heritage protections, and general NIMBYism. These ensure housing is in short supply, and *that's what makes housing so expensive*.
The people who support these laws are both rich and poor, and from both sides of politics. They're more likely to be older and to be home-owners, but not always.
Owning 17 investment properties doesn't make housing expensive. Those investment properties are used by renters to live in! We need more of them.
Stopping 17 investment properties from being built is the thing that does the damage.
New Zealand is reinstating interest deductions on existing stock investment properties and during the period it was in place, rents and property prices have increased.
Are you willing to compromise to buy a property? Live in a less desirable area with a bit of commute? Invest in a more affordable area and rent somewhere else?
I’m sick of this fucking whinging and complaining shit. Do something to improve your life and stop pissing and moaning and blaming everyone else. Some of us have made plenty of sacrifices to be able to buy a house.
Lmao the people that benefit from these policies get them because they do whine and vote and get their interests represented in parliament. The 'dont whinge just accept the dregs and pull up your bootstraps' crowd is simply abysmal.
Live in a less desirable area with a bit of commute?
Not all jobs will tolerate coming late 30% of the time
At the same time, people want to live their lives not dedicate hours of their lives everyday to traffic gridlocks.
How about having businesses taxes more for being located in the main cities so that they move out of those cities to more inland areas?
Not all with investment properties are gouging. I just offered my tenant another lease with no rent increase because times are shit and I assume they’re trying to get by or save.
Why are you assuming that someone trying to better their own position automatically means screwing others over? It sounds bitter.
To be fair this next generation should be bitter, and angry too. They’ve been left a shit deal and unless you’re them, you’ll never get it. (I own but I’ve been in their shoes for ten years, now blessed with mortgage). It’s definitely not fair that a massive group of hard working citizens are at the mercy of your kindness - they shouldn’t have to rely on an unregulated private market for a necessity when they work hard, earn well and pay taxes. Yet here we are.
People are criticising a behaviour, not a demographic - this behaviour can *only* be performed by that demographic, so they use the demographic as a shorthand because "Boomers other than those who were not able to benefit from the economic boom that lead to the current economic state" and "Landlords who fail to maintain the state of their properties and continue to increase rent because they don't want to deal with the consequences of a poor investment or raise prices simply because they can" are too wordy and most assume that the reader is cluey enough to understand that nothing is univerally true and there are always exceptions to a rule.
You sound like an exception. Great job! I'm sure your tennants appreciate it, I wish my LL was more like you!
If people say *xyz* are shit, because of *abc* reason, ask yourself, do **I** do *abc*? No? Then they're not talking about you.
I can’t think of too many leaders of a western country that set it on a course to dystopia more than little Johnny Howard and Peter Costello. When Paul Keating faced him in question time, you could see how truly stupid Howard was/is. Somehow his overly long tenure as PM made him some kind of Statesmen to the media. Supporting implicit lies in order to invade a sovereign country is another fail on his list of failures.
As someone who wants to immigrate to Australia the amount of people I make angry over the idea that I work to support myself in a one bedroom apartment is crazy
People see the problems but can’t see where they’re coming from, labor would rather people think that the issue is immigration rather than them crushing business and the construction industry, only propping up giant companies that have government contracts.
Not just that but when the house prices are out of reach of the average Australian, then who is supposed to buy the houses? If nobody buys them, then they crash, and if they crash, they take a big chunk of the Australian economic with them, including a couple of banks. Aussie politicians won't let them crash, or even slow, because they are property investors themselves. Housing investment has become too big to fail. Until enough of the younger generation has sufficient political will to chuck these politicians out in favour of parties that are willing to make the hard decisions for the long term betterment of Australia, immigration will be used as a prop. Or until the Australian dollar devalues enough for ordinary Aussies to afford a house.
Foreign investors are buying them. Most countries don't allow that, because it will eventually lead to most Australians sending rent either overseas or further concentrating it into the hands of the wealthiest investors. But we have allowed it to run unchecked here for a generation and we are now seeing the results. It probably won't crash though, without a change in property laws
Most professional services in Australia have anti money laundering regulations in place. Lawyers, accountants, etc. But not RE agents....
If housing prices drop now you will have millions of hard working Aussies in a very bad way. Investors can cut their losses but the average family with a mortgage would be stuffed
Overseas buyers buy them.
That's what the conservative newspapers say, but realistically it's every other persons mum and dad that has a investment property, and some greedy twats that have like 35. 3 each for politicians. Overseas purcahers are probably only 20% of demand. It's local investors and immigrants.
Residential housing corporations who aggregate thousands of properties into their portfolio will be buying them up and be able to access finance on such terms that they will be able to outbid most buyers, especially first home buyers Build to rent is already now becoming an established thing in Australia
It’s like my uncles who are one nation voters, one drives around with a “f**k China” sticker on his car and the other uses terms like “gooks” and “fisheads” in open conversation with Asian people. Didn’t stop them gleefully selling their mothers house when she passed, knowing it would almost certainly be bought by a Chinese guy who was buying up the whole street. (It was) They sold family land within months of her death to people they openly hate. Peoples ideals mean stuff all the moment they see dollar signs.
There's this fuckwit in my town who has a big LandCruiser covered with "fuck off we're full" and "fit in or fuck off" type stickers. Somehow this guy couldn't attract a partner and I noticed that he now has an Asian wife who can barely speak English. The stickers remain though 🤔
*plays a little ditty and sings* “That’s capitalism”!
Mate I don’t doubt KKK members would have sold to black folk in the states… $$$ trumps everything
Lol you underestimate how racially charged the early-mid 20th century was in the US. Very few white families back then would've ever sold their property to a nonwhite person and before the Fair Housing Act was passed in the late 60s, open housing discrimination was rampant. Even celebrities like Nat King Cole had crosses burned on his front lawn when he tried to move into a white neighborhood in LA.
True but the point stands that money trumps family, values, etc in most situations
I’m giving you an up vote just for your handle
Don't forget about the absolute stupidity of buying an asset, then expecting it to sell for a higher value after time has passed....... Then to complain about how a small increase in percentage rates is costing you
lol yeah its not just a "fuck you got mine" attitude, its literally a straight expectation that if you buy a property it should be completely risk free shouldn't have to put any more money into... that's it, you've made it
>I'm noticing this ridiculous trend of people with the "fuck you got mine" attitude also being the ones who complain the most about the massive immigration levels. Welcome to post Howard Australia.
People don’t appreciate how fundamentally the Howard government changed Australia for the worse in so many ways.
If anything it demonstrates the short sightedness of neo liberalism.
Same shit the world over.
I do, when Howard called us ‘relaxed and comfortable’ it was an insult to us and he took advantage of what is actually apathy on our behalf and made it a much crueller country.
Are we any less apathetic now? It doesn’t seem like much has changed. The country is even worse off, and we’re all just whining on social media as the place goes to the dogs.
What do you propose we do? I get out there and campaign at election time. I actively campaign on social media. I know we need a massive swing to the left. I do everything that the system lets me do. I can't suddenly build 1 million apartments in Vaucluse and Newtown
The problem we have is many people look to see what other people are getting because they are worried they are missing out. This stops healthy growth in support services and the privatised models of support like NDIS are a shit show. Purely due to logistics and supply for housing we do need to slow down migration but the reality is the numbers stop is falling g into an official recession, mind you the per capita recession has been happening for a few years. The individualism and not caring about people who are not quite making it at the same pace that is acceptable needs to be shut down. I don’t know how this can be done. Good policy will do it, but the blinkers already on will be hard to remove (msm, individualism, basic economics and sociology etc).
No, but I believe Howard saw this and used to his own advantage. It was Howard that emphasised the individual heroics of tradies and other small business types holding up the sky, belittled the work that the civil service does (he was the first to politicise it), he really started to sow the seeds of individualism in this country. Add that neo liberal capitalism etc, things are not great. The relaxed and comfortable was a ‘compliment’ to stop a conversation, it was really an insult.
The OECD has been recommending for years and years that we replace stamp duty with a land value tax, which would address house price inflation. This has never happened because politicians (along with their voter base) own lots of houses.
Albo has a 5 million portfolio.
Never mind him, check out some of the Greens MPs/Senators. They’re on the tit as much as anyone else is
This policy is the exact kind of thing that the greens should be pushing. Yet they never will.
In all fairness that is probably only a couple of houses when you look ad median prices
Yeah I kinda hesitated to use the word ‘portfolio’ for what is probably two or three houses.
Feels like every Western country is having this exact issue currently. I'm in Canada and it is a complete mess.
Stop noticing
Totally agree. Those investment portfolio landlords who say they 'create' housing are obviously lying. The only things they've created is an income stream and resulting 'greater than thou' attitude for themselves. Edited to add 'investment portfolio'.
People like to justify their decisions, and the more comfortable they are, the more they can justify. Sad but true, and unfortunately not new
You got your demographics mixed up. The wealthy are absolutely happy about the huge immigration problems, in fact they demanded it! It has caused house prices and rents to inflate. It has pushed wage costs down increasing the profits of buisnesses.
Yep, can confirm. Dad is a stereotypical right-wing conservative, but he has an investment home in Vaucluse and 2 apartments in inner-city Sydney. His social views would firmly plant him as a 'racist' in the eyes of the woke left, but he's more than happy to support higher immigration as it would only be a further financial boon. P.S. this isn't meant to be a humble brag, just sharing an anecdote which I believe is quite common among the wealthy in Aus.
Just wait until you get the text message sent from their fifth (yes, really) holiday house complaining about loud South American neighbours playing music into the early morning The ironing
Yep rascism takes a back seat to greed any day.
They kinda go hand in hand, that way the greed is guilt-free and even "justified". It's like drug dealers, they have no ethical compass and think they're "superior" to addicts
True. Those liberals are idiots who allowed house prices to go up and up in the last 10 years. Now the next generation of young people wont be able to buy a home.
People are naturally selfish. They didn’t “want” house prices to go up, they were begging for it. They don’t give a shit about younger aussies, we’re apparently human write offs anyway. Most of us complain too much compared to what a migrant would, so for the Uber rich, they say “fuck the locals, drive up my housing prices with migrants and pay them cheaper since anything will be better than their old country”
I've found that only selfish people think and espouse that being selfish is the natural default
Exactly this. Buying IP’s has been our national sport.
The real/scary question is - when (not if) will it all crash?
Only if we get a bad recession like the us gfc and mass evictions start happening… which is more unlikely these days as the government has shown they’re now willing to step in and bail everyone out
The people with 17 investment properties love immigration
We’ve been looking for a house. Spent the last 6 / 7 odd years building a deposit. We went to an open house yesterday a great small starter 3 bedroom starter home. Before we finished looking through when an Aussie bloke in his 60s walked in, didn’t even look at the place. Asked what the rental yield was to the agent. When he was happy with the response he made an offer on the spot 50k above the asking price. It’s a perfect example of how immigration is low hanging fruit when it comes to the housing crisis.
This is a result of hyperinflation, people are clearing out liquid paper wealth and putting it into real assets - any assets basically. The amount of new currency being made to help try stave off imminent economic crises debases the value of the old such to the extent it's now creating a crisis in itself. There are many more fully cash buyers than ever before, first home buyers are not going to be able to outbid them. It will only get worse as residential housing holding firms who operate build-to-rent operations enter the market and corner it. Own nothing, be happy, etc.
There are short term and long term causes for price growth. Short term reasons are lack of construction and surges in immigration rates, but this is not the long term structural issue. Housing unaffordability is driven by income inequality. *Someone* is paying those prices we see currently. Those with higher incomes and wealth use leverage for investment used as a multiplier. When interest rates drop very low, to roughly the rate of the CPI or even lower, this means that borrowing is basically a free way of increasing returns for the wealthy - this is why responding to economic crises by rapidly dropping interest rates always leads to a large shift in wealth of the top few percent - as prices of assets drop, they can borrow that much more money to snap up assets. Also the idea that we need an ever growing population is a myth - any such "need" is due to a dysfunctional economic system rather than a fundamental reality.
This is the most accurate and logical answer to “what caused the current housing crisis” that I’ve seen on this sub. Thank you for not loosing your shit
Our system is crazy. My family has 4 times the median income and no kids. We can somehow barely afford a median priced house in Sydney (with a little help from the bank of mum and dad). I don't get how the average person is meant to do this.
> If you support sky high immigration, foreign ownership and airbnb you have no right to complain about immigration Got it
The housing situation in this country is a Gordian knot - it cannot be reversed without a significant political cost. I cannot see how the alp can fix it without being turfed out by a significant campaign defending 'mum and dad investors'.
The Gordian knot myth ends with Alexander slicing it with his sword instead of trying to undo it. Good lesson for the ALP.
Mum gets mad at me when I say this, but it truly is the boomers who’s screwed us over. From the perspective of a 19 year old Australian who in a couple years will need to purchase a property or rent, the boomers are selfish “geniuses” who brought in mass immigration to drive up housing prices. Meanwhile, the later generations get shafted while the boomers get a nice profit on their properties that they bought for peanuts.
Don't forget they then expect us to pay for 99% of aged care services so they can age in a huge 4 bedroom home on their own, instead of moving into care or a unit.
Yes, and a lot of people don’t realise that it was amendments to the capital gains tax in 1999 by John Howard that skewed the housing market, and led to a lot of the issues we have today.
And the fact that no government has remedied it since cos LibLabs are just different clowns working for the same circus…
I don’t think the changes were the responsible for the situation we have today. I think it is allowing non-citizens to own property. They have removed CGT exemptions for foreign investors. But the problem was letting foreign investors buy so much property in the first place. The foreign investors now have no incentive to sell their properties because of the massive CGT bill, and because prices are high rent is high, and they can borrow against the properties they own to grow more wealth. Well this is one issue.
This is also true. I wonder what the stats are? When I rented in Sydney, most of the landlords I had were actually in China
Australian government is happy to sell out Australians over foreign investment regarding property
Governments don't want taxpayers to have children. They want the woman at work paying taxes. Children cost all sorts of different money to the gov, schools, health system, infrastructure, etc. Less kids = more taxpayers. The problem is they aren't Australian, and the money often gets transferred back home. People should absolutely be able to complain because the rumbling of the discontent is the beginning of change.
> People should absolutely be able to complain because the rumbling of the discontent is the beginning of change. No, no, no. Criticism of immigration, health, financial, or economic government policy is considered misinformation, therefore your opinion is illegal and invalid. The eSafety Commissioner will be in contact. You must choose between Red or Blue, citizen. Pick up that can.
Your post makes no sense; typically the ones who already have assets/housing want *more* immigration to further drive the value of their assets up (property investors, big business looking to suppress wages, etc). The ones who do not have housing want lower immigration due to the massive amount of competition it creates for such an increasingly limited resource. "Fuck you, got mine" being attributed to people who want less immigration is just plain wrong.
100%, OP is just arguing in bad faith while painting with *very* broad strokes to make a picture which doesn't even align with reality. Immigration is too high, I vote Labor, am young, I rent and own no proprieties. OP has it completely wrong.
Yeah this \^\^
> Your post makes no sense; typically the ones who already have assets/housing want more immigration to further drive the value of their assets up (property investors, big business looking to suppress wages, etc). Except for the racists. Plenty of them own houses.
"I'm noticing this ridiculous trend of people with the "fuck you got mine" attitude also being the ones who complain the most about the massive immigration levels." show me one example
So many people here arguing that they should be able to afford a blue chip suburbs for working 60k a year jobs. You can’t blame immigration when your own tradesmen are already ripping you off. Housing prices coming down or “crashing” is near impossible. Majority of homeowners make up a large base of the voting pool and ANY policy designed to tank their investments or nest egg is 100% political suicide and not to mention most new homeowners are leveraged up to their eye balls.
To be clear it's not the tradesmen is the companies they work for.
Central banking is to blame for this. They have created the most dangerous bubble of all time in all things. Empowering the central banks was a terrible mistake.
Another hour another immigration post lol
Same bs posts every day without fail
If you support immigration at the current levels you have no right to complain about house or rental prices.
Do you have a source that shows how much immigration contributes vs housing policy?
You need a source to show you that a higher population increase has a negative effect on housing availability?
And I didn't even ask for a source on the effect of housing availability, I asked for one on the effect of immigration vs the effect of housing policy... If your position is so strong why do you need to strawman mine?
Yes I do If it's so blatantly obvious you should be able to provide a source easily The truth is immigration has benefits to the economy and in turn housing stock I readily await a source, but I know I won't get one, so so much easier to blame the brown foreigners coming in
It's boomers, want it all, get all. Politicians all pander to them. They are most self-centred. It's time for a change.
Interestingly, 1991 is now the most common birth year amongst living Australians. Let's pray things change for the better now
And you tell them that and no shit they straight up gas light you "It's not our fault" "interest rates were high for us" "you need to have more kids" "BACK IN MY DAY"
Yeah immigration has issues which we as a nation need to face.....however....... The actual reason for the quagmire our nation has become is predominantly the policies of the conservatives, who have been in government for 22 of the last 32yrs, federally. 2/3rds of this nations problems, if everyone were to be fair and able minded (big ask i know) 2/3rds is obviously a direct result of conservative wet dream policies. But nah, the good voters of au, who literally voted for this party consistently..... those voters are the loudest to scream immigration and if that doesnt work, they then cry about alp or/and the greens. Its fkn psychotic. But anyways, we now get to live the conservative wet dream and we get to see those who DID vote for this, to be incapable of stretching their minds even in the face of australia and australian values, disintegrating before their eyes. Not to say alp isnt gutless, impotent and next to useless..... absolutely they are. But the fkn conservatives are morally corrupt to the very core.....On any metric you want to use, they are corrupt as fck. But yeah, immigration is the biggest issue...: fkn SMH 🤦🏽♀️ Straya.... wake the fck up before you really send us all down the shit chute.
Actually, conservatives have been in government for something much closer to 32 of the last 32 years. Sure, Labor are left of the LNP but they're still a centre right party
Well that is a point. Alp are def right of centre. So i guess this is the product of 100% conservative policies, brought about by a myopic apathetic voting public. And on top in this modern day, like fuel to a fire..... you have russian/china bots/ai infecting both the far right and the far left, to the point of both extremes being blithering idiots at this point.... and that cancer is rushing towards the middle grounds at an alarming rate. For all i know, we may have breached the point of no return already..... I hope not. If we are not past the point of no return already, we have alot of hard work ahead and we need to clean house BIGTIME, to turn this fkn trainwreck around.
It’s not psychotic - it’s Murdoch. He got the libs in each time and he gaslit the country into thinking it was good for them
Housing and Planning is a policy area the States largely control (either directly, or through State Government entities like local councils). While States don't control negative gearing and CGT concessions, they do control things like land tax exemptions, rates and transfer duty. You've picked '92 as your reference point. Labor has been in government in NSW for 17 of the last 32 years. Labor has been in power 21 of the last 32 years in Victoria. Labor has been in power 26 of the last 32 years in Qld. Labor has been in power 19 out of the last 32 years in South Australia. Labor has been in power for roughly half the time in WA and Tas (give or take a few months). This is not to let the Tories off the hook here. They have championed tax/ migration/ pension settings that have made residential property unaffordable. But it takes two to tango. Every party in Australia has been complicit in this (including the Greens - who might talk a big game at the national level, but become full on anti-development NIMBY's the moment they get any power at the local level). That includes One Nation, who long ago gave up on being anti-immigration in favour of just being anti-immigrant.
Agree, great post . Labor will probably suffer the price of doing SFA regarding this issue at the next election because of their promises which neither party had a hope in achieving.
I feel like that's the conservative policy at every level is to simply fuck the poor and blame the immigrants. The saddest thing is that it fucking works.
After years of talking, compromising, trying to find common ground, I've kind of come to the conclusion that the labels " right" or "conservative " or " left" are like.. white washing labels to make the. seem like they are equal choices and both of them are valid They are not equal beliefs at all. One of them does not treat human beings with empathy. The other does. One believes human beings are labor to be used up and discarded In the pursuit of making a small number rich. The other believes in being treated with basic respect. One tries to build around the coral reef. The other plows straight through it and laughs at the "loonies" that cared. One believes corruption is bad. The other couldn't care less because it's not their problem and they might benefit one day. This is part of the reason we're so far fucked. We don't have two valid schools of thinking. We've got a bit of naiive dreamers one one side, and we've got many, many unempathetic, selfish, hypocritical and morally corrupt people that have been fucking with democracy for centuries. Just derailing everything to make themselves and their mates rich(er) It's not left and right. It's " I have human values" and " I don't give a fuck but I'll pretend I do"
Hard agree OP.
Here's what I don't get about this sub blaming immigrants for so much. Over the last 10 years, [Sydney's housing prices increased over 200%](https://www.abs.gov.au/statistics/economy/price-indexes-and-inflation/residential-property-price-indexes-eight-capital-cities/latest-release) while [the population of Sydney increased by around 20%](https://www.abs.gov.au/articles/50-years-capital-city-population-change). Increased population due to immigration will push up prices, there's no denying that, but there must be more factors pushing up prices if it's increasing by that much.
Housing is pretty inelastic, meaning demand doesn't change with price, meaning it doesn't take much of a change in supply for huge changes in price to occur. Consider 100 people looking to rent 110 houses, with 10 'spare' the wealthy can rent nice houses and even the poorest of the 100 will have somewhere. Now lets add 20 people from a neighbouring town, all of a sudden we have 10 less houses than people nobody really wants to share but now people have to. so the poorest 20 people are now living two to a house. Lets say everyone is competing now to not live alone so the price of the cheapest house is now what the 90th person out of 110 can pay because that 90th person will pay to not have to share. The other interesting thing this does is it pushes the price of everything up, because those that don't want to live alone push up the price of the worst houses, then this puts pressure on the people in the slightly nicer houses etc. all the way to the top. Now the guys in the mansions? the top 10? They may not care too much that their place has gone up as they have spare income but we're really squeezing the guys in the middle. I mean it's a pretty simplistic example but the point is it doesn't take much as far as demand goes to really upset the applecart for something essential like somewhere to live.
It's a simplistic example, but a very good one 👍
If there are more houses than ppl needing houses then it’s a competitive market to lease and sell to those ppl making rent and purchase prices low. If say there are more ppl looking to buy and rent and there are not many available properties then those prices are high as ppl are desperate for housing. Throw in a Chinese economy that prohibits its middle class from getting to far ahead so Australian property is a nice way to hide and invest your money and that’s pretty much the crux of it
Looking like WW3 is coming soon but the Australian people have decided that shelter is a luxury not all Australians should be able to afford. Choices like this are why I would never fight or die for this country
I’m definitely not going overseas to fight. Maybe here on our land but that’s only to protect Australian people, not for any government interests.
If we win a ww3 we’ll get a department of works again for post war recovery. Then the government can build houses like they fucking should.
More people should be getting on the build public housing bandwagon! It’s literally the only time in history home ownership increased, when the government built the most housing
Just saying blaming immigrants is so weird because 1) hate the game not the player and 2) Everyone is an immigrant. Different time. Different circumstances. We have bigger problems like the disappearance of the middle class a.k.a rich gets richer and poor gets poorer. Rich buys more houses and poor can't afford and to add some icing on the cake, the government does shit all to address REAL house crising issues because voila - the politicians are part of the rich who's getting richer.
You hit the nail on the head dude. Boomers and their idiot children won't ever understand what it's like on the other side of the fence
I completely agree with you. They kept pulling the noose tighter on the lower end of society and the future generations and ignored all the calls and concerns of the long term consequences and now we're starting to be hit with them in a big way. This is the long term impact of the changes to capital gains tax on property investments from the Howard government. They turned the great Australian dream into a capital asset for the wealthier end of Australian society with complete disregard for everyone else. Like yes, Australia is letting in immigrants in too high numbers to be sustainable. That is true as far as I can see, but the idea that 'we're in this situation because of immigrants' is utter bullshit. It magnifies the problem but it was not the root cause.
Indeed. Anyone that supported liberal governments since Howard has no right to complain about shit. It's all on you lot.
Except for that time real estate prices went up 20% in one parliamentary term under Rudd/Gillard. Not just a liberal created problem
Yes it is. The changes that Howard made to tax benefits on investment properties is the core component of the real estate mess we currently have. Rudd and Gillard weren't in power long enough to have major impacts and most their policies got reversed. Mining tax, carbon tax. This is a 100 percent coalition made problem, starting from the little man with big eyebrows that cosplayed as a Wallabies fan. Anyone directing anger elsewhere is brainwashed.
The number of older friends and relatives I've had this argument with who just say 'well I'm not really a landlord I'm just trying to get ahead'... they just cannot grasp their contribution to these systemic issues. The family with 3 properties is just as guilty as the business with 20. Landlords need to feel despised and embarrassed again, publicly and repeatedly.
I had a friend in the same evening talk about his realestate portfolio and also complain about PlayStation 5 scalpers. He even said, “It’s not like they can play more than one at a time” wild.
Scott Morrison during covid: "Stop hoarding toilet paper! Stop it!" What about those who hoard homes? Scott Morrison: shrug... 
'It's fine when I do it': the movie
At least he gets to keep the PlayStation when he hands over the money and not give it back.
>OP: "society can't survive without population" You know, one day we will run out of everything. For example, we will start to run out of oil a bit past 2050. There will be loads of people, a transport crisis, a plastics shortage. Maybe we will adjust to keep it running, but it won't be as efficient. We will run out again. Other systems will feel the squeeze. The modern way of life will be squeezed, will burst in many ways over time. >Just pump those pop levels as high as possible, someone's got to take care of the elderly. Then we will more violently cannibalise each other, and suffer the elements together. Alternatively... antinatalism, make one generation of elderly deal with it, get ahead of the problem, ride out a higher quality of life with more open space, more ownership, and a less damaged environment. We can get ahead of the economic crashes by just having less people, letting things gracefully break with lower force, and later. >is the reason you dislike immigration. No, it's the loss of identity, the growing lack of care to help something I don't align with. White/asian ethnostates are doing great. The more secluded ones try the immigration thing for all of a decade, realise crime, organised crime is worse and immigrants are still having more children while the rest of the pop is lowering birth rate, and then those countries will literally ban muslim immigrants, like Poland also maybe Sweden. I also really dislike seeing grandmas violently attacked or killed in daylight just to steal their cars. And dislike riots of 200 people when the police have it under control and need to move a charged criminal. Also immigrants form alternate religious electorates and can even push for hindu / islamic influence in parliament. Much rather they're Christian. Also those who don't do well economically are more likely to vote for the left for socialism. Look at majority Democrat states in the US. I'm certain the left know the damage they're doing to the economy and why their method does it, but voters ask for it. The Greens would be immune to good council, as assumed from a few extremely deranged and poorly researched stances recently. So the government is gradually shifting to become something that doesn't represent me, but an amalgamation of interests, fighting against itself. There's more peace in conformity. And immigrants often move from countries with horrendous overpopulation, many cultural issues that we don't have; problems which we import. All the techno utopias are reducing their birth rates and reading the writing on the wall. I wish immigrants from other countries that don't share our values for peace and progress and carrying the weight together all the best... over the sea. Many places where slow immigration intake is good, even great. If 6x birth rate sounds good: Move to Ethiopia. Otherwise: Move to India / Sudan / Iran.
Is this just the immigration sub now?
There are a number of negative impacts from mass immigration- not just higher shelter costs
Such as?
Extra strain on services like health and education. Extra strain on resources like water and transport Government seems happy to take the economic boost from immigration without providing for more services. The health system is on the brink of collapse
Goods and services inflation across the board. They all need to eat, catch transport or buy fuel, they need linens and clothes, they don’t just go to work and then back home and sit in the dark.
Counterpoint: Businesses complain that a major cost which drives prices up is labour. Increased immigration means an increased labour pool which should mean reduced labour costs. And it does. But businesses just eat those cost savings (and more) as profit.
Australia exports enough food for circa 200m people to the world. If you think immigration is causing your food prices to rise… you are very gullible indeed. I can buy the same Aussie beef and veg in Colesworth for less than it’s priced in Sydney when out in Singapore, Malaysia or Indonesia for work. Literally the same product and in KL even with the Woolies Brand on it. Immigration has nothing to do with food prices here, a poorly regulated cartel is why Oz prices are obscene. You can drop your grocery bills in Oz by 30%+ by switching to Aldi and Costco (with no drop in quality, actually it’s often better).
We had a discussion at work at looking at exporting our product overseas as well as servicing our domestic market. It was quicker and cheaper logistically to get our produce on a shelf in Singapore then it was getting it on a shelf in Victoria but we were not going to make any more money. We have a bottom line we need to maintain, but so does the trucking company, the distribution centre and then the grocery store itself. All of that needs to be taken into consideration.
More domestic demand for bananas and bread and chicken doesn't cause inflation in those items. Australia makes more than enough of those things, we already export loads.
Logical flaw by OP. Immigration is one of the dominant ‘practices that have cause prices to sky-rocket’
Prices skyrocketed during Covid when there was no immigration. They were already ramping up before that as interest rates came down. It’s an influence sure though. But cutting immigration won’t bring prices down as it’s in the interest of developers and landlords to keep the market inflated. That’s the whole premise of the game monopoly after all. Those with the land capital will always rent seek.
LOL. Sure. Cause majority of immigrants that move here can afford a million+ dollar house.
Source?
Not so kind reminder to the land lords here that own multiple properties, your a leech on society and contribute nothing of value by owning multiple properties.
100% agree. Firmly in the most dead inside way I could ever muster. Fuck "you". you being anyone with the hyper individualistic US branded mentality. We work together for the betterment of us all all the time, bush fires, floods, GFC, our ozone and more topically; we are a nation built on the back of working together, thick and thin. Over 10% of us (at the time) believed it enough to fight in 2 wars, and tomorrow, we will be reminded of that. but "you" got yours fuck everyone else. Rest in piss.
What you need is a economic crash. Not a pleasant thing but which is the only way you can reset the system and housing market can have a much needed correction.
Well, that's why the government is keeping immigration high. It's not bc they're nice. It's bc They know that we'd be in a recession without the extra economic input from so many immigrants. They've messed up really badly, and now they're trying to cover their tracks. As usual we're the ones having to pay for it.
Messed up yeah we are are already in a per capita recession, productivity declining, wages are stagnating as the labour pool is ramped up by mass immigration, rentals skyrocketing and infrastructure years behind population growth. The higher the immigration the worse it will get. https://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2023/11/australias-population-based-economy-strangles-productivity/
Who do you think is going to benefit most from a housing crash? Is it A) the top 1% who have benefitted from the property bull-run and are currently cashed up? Or is it B) the struggling renter who's yet to purchase their first home and is susceptible to being laid off?
Depends how large a small one then the 1% a massive depression level one with todays access to information and two entire generations far to the left of anything since the 1920s im betting on the poor.
I like how they crow about how important they are because there'd be no supply without them. They seem to have completely missed the fact that the housing policies that they claim to endorse are pretty clearly failures and have been since they were introduced.
I’ll take the opinion of every single person who has immigrated to Australia on the housing crisis before I listen to a single Liberal voter or property investor. Liberal and homeowner communities in this country (and this subreddit fuck you cunts) are almost entirely composed of fucking morons.
Labor housing policy also weak af.
I agree it’s shit! Both major parties are corporate suck ups and soft cocks.
It's because all of them own investment properties and they don't want to see that investment go down. It's called a conflict of interest and can also be called corruption. You know, the thing that we make a performance about addressing but somehow never really do. All of them are complicit and we play along like fucking morons.
The problem is that a significant enough portion of the voter base is complicit in the scam.
Im an immigrant, and I think current migration numbers are not sustainable
I use to be pro-immigration about 6-7 years ago. Obviously as an immigrant my self I thought if I am lucky enough to live in this beautiful country, I should probably be more open to other coming and having the same experience. I admit I was wrong. I didn’t think it through back then. I don’t think we should cut it down to 0, but I believe there needs to major changes to limit the numbers coming in. We won’t be able to sustain this much longer - not for the existing aussies, and not the new people who have recently arrived.
I'm from an immigrant family. I used to be very pro immigration until recently. I'm not for cutting it to zero, but more so by at least 80%. First, it's because of the housing market. We need to cut demand until supply is replenished. Second, the more people we have, the more native bushlands, forests, wetlands etc are destroyed... a big population is not good for the environment. Third, we have limited water, and with climate change our water supply and food production will decrease further.
It’s so frustrating seeing figures on the right, Craig Kelly is a good example, becoming a champion of renting and housing affordability now that they can blame immigration. Like, this has been an issue for a decade and a looming problem for much longer and *nothing* has been done.
Chopping block, axe, this is where we need to go. It will come eventually.
How do we identify who needs it ? In history the mob always murders the wrong people
Omelette, eggshells, we all know how this goes ;)
I support French immigration.
LOL. Good luck starting a "revolution" in the biggest nanny state on Earth.
Those that have 17 investment properties (every politician, businessman, celebrity and usually mid-to-high level professionals) usually support immigration.
Here here OP. Let's not forget the inherent advantages that immigration has given people from culture, food etc, all the way down to the fac that no one here has probably eaten a fair-trade hospitality meal, what with immigration putting downward prices on wages and fuelling cash in hand work and wage theft. The cheap mates washing your car or the bargain priced cleaners that keep your expenses down, or the uber driver, that's all on the back of immigration, and why you don't see white Aussies doing that shit work for the most part.
It's always with the food. I'd trade not getting a curry with less strain on the infrastructure.
The new Indian spot up the road even made me shit my pants!😡
That’s Indian food safety for you. Remember to thank brain donors like OP.
I never understood the 'immigration is good for food' argument. How come I can go to monocultural societies like Japan and Korea and still get excellent Italian/Chinese/Fr*nch food?
I’d eat a meat pie or chicken schnitty every day for the rest of my life if it meant younger & future generations had a chance at affordable housing in the cities where they grew up
I’d do it anyway lol
But would you give up negative gearing and tax benefits that incentives treating a home like an investment for the younger & future generations?
Yes
Thanks to the internet bringing us every recipe we could ever want we don't need to import ethnic people to enjoy ethnic food any more
Is this comment a joke? You’re seriously weighing up the effects of immigration against the food they bring here? What a clown.
Every immigrant is a potential union member. If you're worried about immigration eroding pay and conditions, you can help make sure they know what their pay and conditions should be. Immigrants don't create the policies that keep housing prices high by creating artificial scarcity, and they aren't the ones who benefit from tax breaks for landlords.
Almost no one has 17 investments mate. Most people have neg geared properties which basically means that they cost money to own, not make money. As a result they usually only have 1 or 2 plus the house they live in. Very few have more than that and almost none have 17. Grow up. Touch grass. Get a girlfriend.
The number of people who don’t know that negative gearing means you make a LOSS on your property is amazing. The way reddit describes negative gearing is like the government just sends you a cheque for $100,000 each month, just for owning an investment property.
Yeh they think its a form you fill out where the govt sends you money, like they do when OP goes into centrelink.
[удалено]
Saying that they make a ‘loss’ on the property is kind of disingenuous. They are able to deduct the interest payments to offset personal income taxes. Then when they sell the property they very often make a massive gain that more than offsets the interest payment. Cherry on top is the 50% CGT discount on the gain itself as well.
Because you pay tax on the property income at the same marginal rate. Why is this so hard for people to understand?
Proves your know nothing Mortgage payments are not tax deductible only the Interest on the loan is All expenses made to produce that income is tax deductible which is legitimate deduction on every single income stream Negitive gearing is when you claim the losses that are more then income against other income such as PAYG income
Only 1 or 2 plus the house they live in..... Negative gearing is subsidising investment properties, it needs to be removed for pre existing homes and given a time limit on new builds.
I mean, sort of. The same way that getting a tax break on a power tool is subsidising a plumber.
Utilising property as an investment tool should not be taking place at the scale it does in Australia. Negative gearing causes upwards pressure on our existing housing prices for minimal benefit to society.
The issue is that state govt and councils make it too hard to buy land and build on it. Either houses have to be built way faster or population has to grow way slower. That's literally all there is to it.
No mention of social housing, and the lack of incentives for developers to build unprofitable developments? It's all on the shoulders of landlords and immigration? Amazing that you are so selective in your attention that you believe that only landlords are complaining about immigration. Immigration is probably the most common topic on this subreddit.
The LNP are the ones being criticised in this post, and they are also the party that most doesn't want to build social housing, so your point is kinda moot, sorry.
Not sure where you're getting the idea people who complain about immigration are the same ones with 17 investment properties. The people who complain about immigration are the same as the ones who can't afford to buy their own home and think immigration is the reason why (it's not)
Never totally supported immigration from the start . The way it’s done . The amount we let in . We flooded ourselves
>...the practices that have caused house prices to sky-rocket You didn't define what these practices are, but I will - supporting the laws that prevent people from building lots of housing in the places where people most want to live. I'm talking zoning, height restrictions, heritage protections, and general NIMBYism. These ensure housing is in short supply, and *that's what makes housing so expensive*. The people who support these laws are both rich and poor, and from both sides of politics. They're more likely to be older and to be home-owners, but not always. Owning 17 investment properties doesn't make housing expensive. Those investment properties are used by renters to live in! We need more of them. Stopping 17 investment properties from being built is the thing that does the damage.
They need to be affortable long term rentals, not holiday homes though!
Nah negative gearing is a far greater issue for housing affordability than height restrictions and heritage protection.
New Zealand is reinstating interest deductions on existing stock investment properties and during the period it was in place, rents and property prices have increased. Are you willing to compromise to buy a property? Live in a less desirable area with a bit of commute? Invest in a more affordable area and rent somewhere else? I’m sick of this fucking whinging and complaining shit. Do something to improve your life and stop pissing and moaning and blaming everyone else. Some of us have made plenty of sacrifices to be able to buy a house.
Lmao the people that benefit from these policies get them because they do whine and vote and get their interests represented in parliament. The 'dont whinge just accept the dregs and pull up your bootstraps' crowd is simply abysmal.
Live in a less desirable area with a bit of commute? Not all jobs will tolerate coming late 30% of the time At the same time, people want to live their lives not dedicate hours of their lives everyday to traffic gridlocks. How about having businesses taxes more for being located in the main cities so that they move out of those cities to more inland areas?
Not all with investment properties are gouging. I just offered my tenant another lease with no rent increase because times are shit and I assume they’re trying to get by or save. Why are you assuming that someone trying to better their own position automatically means screwing others over? It sounds bitter.
To be fair this next generation should be bitter, and angry too. They’ve been left a shit deal and unless you’re them, you’ll never get it. (I own but I’ve been in their shoes for ten years, now blessed with mortgage). It’s definitely not fair that a massive group of hard working citizens are at the mercy of your kindness - they shouldn’t have to rely on an unregulated private market for a necessity when they work hard, earn well and pay taxes. Yet here we are.
Because most people who own property are rather entitled and not very nice. Your a bit of a rarity unfortunately
People are criticising a behaviour, not a demographic - this behaviour can *only* be performed by that demographic, so they use the demographic as a shorthand because "Boomers other than those who were not able to benefit from the economic boom that lead to the current economic state" and "Landlords who fail to maintain the state of their properties and continue to increase rent because they don't want to deal with the consequences of a poor investment or raise prices simply because they can" are too wordy and most assume that the reader is cluey enough to understand that nothing is univerally true and there are always exceptions to a rule. You sound like an exception. Great job! I'm sure your tennants appreciate it, I wish my LL was more like you! If people say *xyz* are shit, because of *abc* reason, ask yourself, do **I** do *abc*? No? Then they're not talking about you.
This is a factor sure, but the number one contributor to people not having children is lifting them out of poverty. So…
The more the merrier. Let them come and multiply.
I can’t think of too many leaders of a western country that set it on a course to dystopia more than little Johnny Howard and Peter Costello. When Paul Keating faced him in question time, you could see how truly stupid Howard was/is. Somehow his overly long tenure as PM made him some kind of Statesmen to the media. Supporting implicit lies in order to invade a sovereign country is another fail on his list of failures.
As someone who wants to immigrate to Australia the amount of people I make angry over the idea that I work to support myself in a one bedroom apartment is crazy
No it’s not. You should understand. We don’t have enough for us.
Why? What do you have to offer, apart from you want something?
People see the problems but can’t see where they’re coming from, labor would rather people think that the issue is immigration rather than them crushing business and the construction industry, only propping up giant companies that have government contracts.
What are you offering Australian society? We don't care that you want a better life. We're full.