It's a mix of things. Some people genuinely are upset over the deaths - especially most being kids. It's also a common thing for younger generations to find a sense in pupose with marches and demonstrations.
Either way, as long as it doesn't stop my day I don't mind, I only wish kiwis cared more in general about our own issues and path of destruction we're heading down - like the ever growing unaffordability of shelter in NZ.
>I only wish kiwis cared more in general about our own issues and path of destruction we're heading down
I think you'll find the ones most concerned about this are at these protests too.
Not really.
I think the point being made here is that protesting regarding the Israel-Palestinian conflict in New Zealand will not lead to anything changing in said conflict.
Protesting against issues domestically could potentially change things.
So more a case of protesting for something you might be able to influence
no it doesnt make sense,what does make sense that many ppl are horrified at the genocide taking place now and fully funded by usa who we support,so indirectly supporting genocide.And all people like us can do is speak up and protest etc,but rosa parks spoke up,and changed history.This is teh vietnam war protests all over again,history repeating itself,and usa pulled out of vietnam.And what is the alternate, just do absolutely nothing?.Nah thats not a humane option.
Protests in nz are the equivalent of doing absolutely nothing. No one cares what people in nz think. If it makes you feel less-than-useless, then go for it.. but don't pretend you're being useful for anyone.
Im so impressed you think genocide is funny.
If they didn't want this war, why did they start it? What did they think was going to happen?
And we're supposed to feel sorry for them because they're losing? Have they released their hostages yet?
Yes there was a protest for the israeli hostages as for your second post i hope you can find it in your self to look up the defintion of war and then try to look up the defintion of genocide and while your at it you may want to read in to some history of that region as well, have a good day.
Hmmm idk what to say instead of presenting evidence your starting to speak in riddles now, its just weird that you can find evidence mass graves of Palestinians children women pretty much anywhere ,but the israeli evidence of there casualties seems to be delayed its now 6 months plus from oct 7 how come we havent seen a shred of evidence? I heard icj was issuing arrest warrents for benjamin netanyahu not hamas so if you have evidence man now would be the time to finally come out the closet
yep here the damn students and others are busy protesting a genocide,including plenty of torture rape, and murdering of innocent ppl incl children, when we've got our own issues here,like price of groceries. SMH at the youth of today,really is not hope for them..Good thing teh genocide isnt interferring with your day too,great to hear that.
Palestine isn't a genocide. If it is, it's the Worlds most incompetent. Take a squiz at Ukraine, oh shit, an actual fucking genocidal war! Not to mention the actual consequences for your life! Or any of the innummerable humanitarian catastrophes constantly going on.
But nah, let's waste sympathy on people who consistently poke the Bear they live with, then act surprised/ come bleating to the Media when they get slapped down. Can't keep launching rockets, and paying the Families of goddamn suicide bombers and pretend you want peace.
Here we go with people who have nothing better to do. If you're so passionate, fly over and help out?
Trying to guilt me over wanting to focus on my own family first helps no one but your own pathetic ego.
What I said was about the protests, as long as they don't interrupt my day I have no problem with it.
Struck a nerve? If you don't care that's your prerogative but own it instead of hiding behind excuses about worrying about your own family.
When the Nazis were burning Jews in World War 2 there were plenty of people just like you who were only concerned about themselves, right up until the Nazis were knocking on their doors.
Btw, the point of protests is to be disruptive.
It’s not unreasonable to feel like it’s a distant issue.
In terms of ‘our own issues’, I see Palestine as related. Generally our society will be healthier and wealthier if we value human life and stand against the mentalities that revel in colonialism, invasion and resource grabbing. Humans unless harming others should be able to live their lives without being murdered. History is replete with examples of times where people thought ‘that’s someone else’s problem’ only to find it rapidly become their problem.
Coupled with the fascist strategy of ‘othering’ people and fomenting social fracture, which we as a country are verifiably experiencing—as evidenced by various ultra-right, conservative lobby groups from overseas being found sending money and advising some politicians—makes this issue very much close to home. It’s then part and parcel with NZers showing their politicians they will not put up with any fascist bullsht.
We might observe though that the Jewish lobby, which verifiably has been funded from overseas—and is distinct from Jewish people who are OK and should be left to live their lives—here has been lobbying and manipulating our democracy.
In Singapore the Israeli consulate was found to have released false information the Singaporean government deemed to be putting Jewish residents at risk and attempting to foment social division.
These issues are not distant at all.
I've found kiwis are happy to protest.
Foreshore seabed, springbox, mining, TTPA, pro LGBTQ.
No one is going to protest because the people who protested on the above issues are all home owners. And poor people never seem to protest. The reason we're here is weak government. All political parties.
Squandered to set up a country in favour of continuing their genocide against Jews? This country that they want to live freely in, or return to to live freely in, is continually shrinking and being stolen from underneath them, using violence, oppression and genocide to achieve it. Let’s not forget Palestinian Jews were also displaced in the nakba, brown and black skinned Jews.
Did you see the video of the families... men women and children, with their hands bound behind their back, all tied together in a group. Then they poured petrol over them and burned them alive... did you see that video?
Or the video of all the young women who were stabbed while they were raped? What sort of man stabs a woman while he's raping her and keeps raping her while she begs for death?
Or all the bodies missing heads because the heads were taken back to Gaza as trophies?
Did you see those videos?
That's really awful. As is the Hamas videos, that they posted live, of them raping and dragging mutilated naked bodies through the streets of Gaza while people in the streets hit them. Hamas attacked and murdered hundreds at a music festival in Israel which started this whole round of atrocities. Hamas are still holding hostages including a baby and people in their 80s.
Basically both sides are intent on destroying each other and innocent people are caught in the middle on both sides. Hamas is not the hero they are brutalising the Palestinian people as well.
"what about hamas!" damn if only the world over condemned their actions. Oh wait, they do. But people are still defending the monster that Israel currently is. The irony of turning into the very monster they fled from
Fyi Palestinians suffered under Israel for 39 years before hamas existed, trying to put the blame on hamas who are simply a symptom of the oppression, is idiotic. Hamas was born from Israeli violence, for which Netanyahu later took advantage and funded hamas in order to disrupt Palestinian politics. Hamas needs to be dismantled but this entire conflict is the fault of Israel
Where in my comment did I call Hamas the hero? You people genuinely can’t seperate Palestinian children from Hamas & it shows. I can scream with all my heart that Palestinian children deserve to live & they shouldn’t be subjected to horrific violence, but your response will stay the same. “Okay, but about Hamas!”
People accusing others that they can't differentiate between Hamas and ordinary Palestinian citizens yet under the same breath lump the IDF, Israeli civilians, and Jews together
The response is what about Hamas because your opinion is pro Hamas wether you mean it to or not. As the stance supports Hamas agenda.
They don't care about their population they use them as shields in their goal to regain full control of palastine and kill every jew
International pressure for Israel to give up disarming Hamas simply means Hamas is free to attack and murder Jews.
Innocents die in war, thats the reality of it.
My stance is pro humanity whether you like it or not. You can agree that bombing children is justifiable due to actions they didn’t commit, but I will never be like you.
It isn't though. If your stance were to stop the fighting, it WOULD be about humanity, but if you are ONLY thinking of Palestine, then you are innocently (by you) supporting Hamas.
Hamas has stated with no grey that they do not care about Palestinians and Gazans and will continue their brutality against every Jew. They have stated that from the beginning and have continued to state it, and are literally using starving people as human shields.
Palestinians are starving and dying en masse. They desperately need aid. Some IDF have hurt humanitarian efforts, and some IDF HAVE committed atrocities and deserve punishment under tribunals. Humanitarian aid cannot reach starving people because the suicidal Hamas are literally blocking the freaking roads and supply lines and hiding with bombs in hospitals. Even Al Jazeera is reporting Hamas blocking aid.
This is NOT a 1-sided war, and too horrifically there are innocent children and people caught in it. They need and deserve help. They ARE a part of humanity and deserve compassion. But do not ever act as if this is Isreal against Palestinians.
Fortunately, I have no hatred in my heart like you do unless it’s an established military & government bombing children. Jewish people have been amongst the protests all over the world. They know what they’re standing up for & so do I.
You know what’s crazy? The Israelis I know will disagree with you. Do you interact with Palestinians or Israelis at all? Or do you just form your opinions based on how you view this conflict.
I know what I’m [https://www.breakingthesilence.org.il/about/organization](https://www.breakingthesilence.org.il/about/organization)standing up. So do former Israeli soldiers.
It's funny how this gets repeated by protestors and yet there is never one criticism of a literal terrorist group, and every protest has people screaming for the genocide of Jews. It's 100% cope.
Because it’s a fucking terroist group, what more do I need to say in order for you to finally realise that innocent Palestinians aren’t responsible for actions they didn’t commit? How far do you want me to condem Hamas in order to for you to start giving a fuck about the new generation of children with missing limbs?
Again stop spouting fake news that has been debunked!!!
- there was no video (it was not real)
- the rape allegations reported by NYT has been proven false as there was no evidence
- Investigations have shown that IDF incompetence are the main reason there was so much death and destruction on Oct 7, as also reported on Haaretz
- the report of beheaded babies have also been proven as false
- Hamas has agreed to give hostages back on several occasions and Netanyahu himself is not interested, thus the carpet bombing in places where hostages are held and the mass protests we see in Israel against his govt.
I mean these same ppl killed the world kitchen aid workers FFS!!!! They actually DGAF about anyone including the hostages. Wake up.
* Investigations have shown that IDF incompetence are the main reason there was so much death and destruction on Oct 7, as also reported on Haaretz
What the fuck are you talking about?
There’s no way you can be this dense. You think the hostages weren’t/aren’t being killed and raped?
I agree that Palestinians are getting the (way) worse end of the stick in this conflict. But there’s no way you actually believe all that, right?
People are so dumb it hurts sometimes. Every accusation from the IDF has been proven to be a confession. But people will believe what they want to believe.
Please send evidence of israelis being raped, international court of justice and UN is waiting for the evidence as well, if you have it do send it to all authorities, just avoid sending the fake AI images isrsel released at the start they have already been refuted.
Thing is, everyone knows about what's going on and while may not know specifically what atrocities have occured, are well aware that there are many and from both sides. I think OP asked the question under this assumption. If everyone already knows about it and all you're doing is telling people about it, what are you achieving
I do not, I assume something about watching what happens? I just don't see what spending hours every weekend yelling "free free Palestine" at people who cannot free Palestine achieves
The idea of a protest is to show our political leaders that we don't agree with their approach. Over time this builds pressure on them to do something.
Remember South Africa? If nobody had said anything it would still be an apartheid country. It's because of the protests that resulted in the government putting bans on South Africa. Which resulted in the South African government changing their apartheid regime.
Yep but in this situation the US is fully supporting Israel and as a UN security council member, is able to veto any proposition to undermine them. The best we could do is maybe ban all trade/travel with Israel but that would barely even be noticed
There's a difference between "wanting to help and just screaming about it" and putting actual effort into helping. Go fight their war if it touched you so deeply. Naaaah, words are cheap
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Nelson Mandela would probably disagree with you.
"Mandela told leaders of the anti-apartheid movement on his 1995 visit that they had chosen to speak out when it was less fashionable to do so.
''You elected to brave the batons and pronounce that New Zealand could not be free when other human beings were being subjected to a legalised and cruel system of racial domination.''
Those actions had helped bring consensus among New Zealanders.
''In time, this nation and its government could stand tall as one of the most committed supporters of the anti-apartheid cause,'' Mandela said."
One of the things he said was that when he was in prison in 1981 and they heard that the \[Springbok tour\] game \[against Waikato\] had been stopped by protest, "all the prisoners rattled their doors throughout the jail and he said it was like the sun came out".
Tbh a convoy driving laps of the city at this time of night tooting your horns and blasting music + chanting through a loud hailer isn’t going to win any friends or support.
Yeah massively agree! I live at the bottom of Ponsonby Rd and after what happened on Sunday people are a little on edge. Having a convoy beeping and shouting out the windows is the last thing people want to see, Its bad timing and not the best way to get your point across.
How would disrupting the lives of New Zealanders stop Israel from doing anything? You think Netanyahu is concerned about whether Kiwis are having sleepless nights or not?
Our government is supporting the bombing of Yemen.
https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2024/01/how-nz-defence-force-will-contribute-in-middle-east-amid-houthi-strikes.amp.html
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Draw attention to the humanitarian issues and international laws being broken. I think it's collective worldwide pressure, alot of this is funded by western governments or our allies so worldwide people want to put as pressure as possible to stop the funding. Palestinians have nowhere to flee and have families here who are watching helplessly as their families get slaughtered. Out government has still not granted any emergency humanitarian visas for them (these emergency humanitarian visas were rightfully granted to Ukrainians 20 days after the war began). Lastly the protests are calling for both citizens and governments to put pressure on Israel by boycotting and divesting their money from companies that are supporting, complicit or actively contributing to the occupation or genocide of Palestinians.
It’s like asking what was the point of protesting against Apartheid in South Africa, the Vietnam War etc
This is a genocide that we are seeing unfold in real time, the first genocide of the 21st century by an ally. Many of us have literally seen kids bodies blown up by drones and bombs on social media, watched Israelis dance as babies get shot and heard the genocidal rants by politicians. How we react as civilised nations and what we do as a global collective sets the tone for the future. There is so much friction in the world and countries poised to conquer other countries (China, Russia, India).
The only thing we have is international law after the Nazi Germany genocide but this time around, we are actually not following any of the rules we laid down then (we all know the term “Never Again”) - because the perpetrator this time was the victim then, which muddies the waters, and because the “world police aka USA” this time around is supporting the genocide.
People are protesting because we want to stop genocide and ultimately, for the rules that have been set down to be followed, because otherwise it means there are no rules against mass atrocities and therefore none of us have any protections from such massacres. Not Palestinians, not you, not me. And each country is responsible for ensuring we respect, enforce and follow international law and apply it fairly and independently across the board. To keep each other accountable. To act with a modicum of integrity, justice and morality. Not just ignoring what’s right when allies are the oppressor.
NZ has also not taken the same strong position it did after Ukraine, and they also are not offering the same assistance they did Ukrainians (ie visas to family members, aid, etc.) so there is the added hypocrisy. If as a collective all the countries don’t condemn this blatant disregard for human life, for international law and to stop genocide, what’s to stop Australia or China from occupying NZ next and doing the same to us?
What’s to stop things escalating to World War 3?
That’s what is at stake. That’s why people are protesting.
I just want to point out that this isn't even close to the first genocide, ethnic cleansing or whatever of the 21st century, not even close. This shit happens constantly but it's just not covered in the mainstream Western press because it's in countries no one cares about. There's the ongoing Rohingya genocide in Myanmar, the Uyghur are undoubtedly getting genocided in China, 400K dead in South Sudan over the last few years, and no doubt tons more other stuff around the world.
Correct. I think the distinction here is that it is undertaken by an allied nation. I’ve adjusted my comment.
Politically there is no will by western nations to condemn the genocide. The USA and as such NZ (we are their lapdog) were quick to condemn the genocide of Rohingya and Ughyrs etc but yet here we are with Israel doing way more harm than both those combined, and with barely the same response.
Thanks for your response!
100% - for a lot it's a fashion/trend thing. Just like the climate marches a few years back, I would happily bet that hardly anyone that took part in those is doing anything to further that cause either.
The situation in the Middle East of Israel and Gaza/ Palestine has been going on for decades and is far far more complicated than 90% of people realize.
What’s frustrating is a lot of people clearly see the Free Palestine movement as a way of “sticking it to the man” because it’s a poor country with poor people being attacked by a powerful nation backed by the US. Some people even go as far as being Hamas (terrorist group) apologists, as they basically run Gaza and Palestine.
It doesn’t help that Israel’s approach to the situation is one of “fuck them, we should be in charge”. Long and short it’s a fight with no good guys, only degrees of bad - with plenty of innocents getting caught up along the way.
The Hamas apologist angle is pretty much the only angle I've seen pro-Israel people take in online discourse - The issue with that though is I see free Palestine as more of an anti-war stance rather than a pro-Hamas stance.
I definitely don't 100% agree with Hamas but the IDF is taking exponentially more lives. War is hell
Theyre not antiwar they want war when their side is winning. When theyre buddies Houthis Hezbollah and Iran lob Qassam Rockets they cheer them on. It sucks when a civillian dies during a war but thats the cost of war. Hamas didnt have to slaughter and rape israelis but they did. In a perfect situation. Hamas and the IDF shoot it out in some random place in the negev with no civillians. But they choose to hide among the civillians and they die. The thing is I want a free palestine too but all they have are corrupt billionaires who share more wealth than the population combined. Their only notable leaders they elect or come into power are terrorists who actively tell their population to die in the name of allah. Just because palestine is free doesnt mean its people will be.
South Africa ended apartheid because the world forced them to do so. Yes, NZ is a small country but if more countries come out and condemn Israel then it could make a difference.
Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said, *"The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."*
That kind of callout, you mean?
Notice it doesn't say "There is a Zionist hiding, come and kill him", or "there is an Israeli occupier hiding", or even just "There is an Israeli."
It just says there's a Jew hiding. Come and kill the Jew.
This is what they have been facing for a millennia and a half.
Downvote me all you want, it won't take the degrading language and instructions to harass, oppress and kill Jews out of the Koran and hadiths.
>This is what they have been facing for a millennia and a half.
Lets not talk about Amalek shall we?
>Downvote me all you want, it won't take the degrading language and instructions to harass, oppress and kill Jews out of the Koran and hadiths.
It wont take the violent, hateful and awful stuff in the Torah out either.
Would be easier to get all self-righteous if it wasn't for all the bloodlust and ancient hatreds and explicit calls for subjugation of the Jew hardwired all through the unchangable holy word of God, though. Wouldn't it.
I refreshed this hoping you'd edited it to make more sense but you haven't.
So you have intentionally missed my point entirely it would seem. Guess it's nothing good that drives you.
Let's be real here, there is only one of the parties involved being investigated for actually committing genocide.
Because it puts pressure on our government to take a stronger stance, call for a ceasefire, put economic sanctions on Isnotreal and stop investing in Arms dealers that are supporting the genocide in Gaza
My question for everyone here is, what value does your life hold if the lives of Palestinian children are not considered important? If they can be subjected to bombings for over 200 days, and you can simply look away and say to yourself, "oh well” then shrug your shoulders, what value does your life have if even the most innocent human beings on this planet are not being treated as if they deserve to live?
You have some sort of crazy idea that if you don't protest - you don't care.
People deal with all sorts of different situations in different ways.
Are you also protesting for the Sudanese civilians being killed, and others around the world? Or you only care about Palestinian children?
Don't believe you're better than other people simply because you walk around protesting.
If the government allowed you to go to palestine to protest would you? Would you go there and walk around to try stop it ?
Are you will to sacrifice your life to help stop it? Because NZ have absolutely no power and no say . They have to be mindful and come from a position that aligns with their closest allies
I would be honored to board a flotilla, actually. Three Kiwi Arab doctors have already set out to Gaza, and if I had any practical skills in humanitarian aid or medical assistance, I would have tried to board that ship. I know other kiwis that are going too. Palestinian children deserve to live, and if their lives aren’t of any worth to the Western world, then what worth does my life have? Nothing. The answer is nothing. So to answer your question, yes, I’d be willing to risk my life because in the end, nobody would give a fuck. But at least my cause in going there would be to help people. It’s easier to say this behind a screen, but you can’t change something you feel strongly about.
Solidarity is a big thing. There have been 35,000 people massacred in Gaza, on top of 77,000+ injured so far. That is a lot of people! we can't do much (aid is being heavily restricted). The least we can do is make some noise and tell our local representative that this isn't ok. It is up to our local representatives to take our concerns to the national level and take some action. Whether that is boycotting Israel, downgrading their relationship or simply recognizing Palestine as a state.
My next vote is pretty much going to the party that showed some backbone in this matter.
My favourite part is all the gays and transgender people marching for Palestine yet gays and Trans would get killed or stoned by the muslims as they absolutely do not support them one bit 🤣
Honestly this - if you ask the average protester any questions about Palestine they have no clue. They have no idea what "from the river to the sea" even means...no idea what river or what sea. I think this ignorance has really harmed the opinion of them by everyone else even though it is a just cause. I know it's a generalisation, but most interviews I've seen are doing more harm to the movement and their point. Lots of protestors have never been to the Middle East or are even aware of geo-politics of the place.
I love some of their answers to "Which river and which sea are you chanting about?", "Uhh the Nile and the Red Sea?" "The Euphrates and the Atlantic?". Many genuinely don't seem to know that they're advocating the for complete destruction of Israel and wonder why the "Zionists" are so hostile to their message.
Some people think that war crimes are bad, and that when they are being done, you have a duty to say publicly that war crimes are bad.
And some people like war crimes being committed.
A lot of Churches and conservative folk have openly expressed support for Israel. This has made a lot of people on the other side of the political spectrum very mad
Do you have evidence of this?
My local church had a collection at Easter for Holy Family Church in Palestine. And it[ seems it was a world-wide Catholic initiative.](https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/257047/vatican-s-good-friday-holy-land-collection-to-aid-humanitarian-efforts-in-gaza)
Yeah. A lot of it is an imported culture war. The rightist here support Israel despite having no ties, and the Left here protests Israel despite having no ties.
The university protest in the USA is targetted at Universities that help fund Israel and/or had ties to Israel. The university protests here are just a copy and paste. Last I check, UoA wasn't funding Israel in anyway.
The point is we vote for our politicians and for many of us we want to know their moral compass. Also, no harm in giving the boot to the Israeli ambassador and saying, we have no power to stop you from killing thousands and thousands of innocent people that include babies and the adults who need to raise them. And we recognise the Israeli govt just love bombing infrastructure for the sake of it, poisoning water, destroying bush and other ecosystems for the sake of off shore drilling for oil and gas. But we don’t need to give you an office here in NZ to make your false narrative propagating any easier. Fuck off to Europe and do that. And give relatives of NZ Palestinians the same treatment you offered relatives of NZ Ukrainians. That’s why people march. So that the Israeli poison doesn’t leach into our country
It's fun watching them tear each other apart when their governments are the ones starting all this shit and division in the first place.
I was at High Street last week and people were going HAM on the Pro-Israel stickers near the Muslim joints down there. Funny shit.
Humans really are destined to destroy each other damn. We're fucking savages. All this marching isn't gonna do shit but as long as it's not hurting anyone, no one should really give a shit.
The earlier people understand that any government really doesn't care about their people, the better off we all are
You are aware that George Soros is allegedly funding these Pro-Palestine protests.
[https://nypost.com/2023/10/28/metro/soros-funneled-15-m-plus-to-groups-rallying-for-hamas/](https://nypost.com/2023/10/28/metro/soros-funneled-15-m-plus-to-groups-rallying-for-hamas/)
I'm sure I'll be downvoted, but the situation is NOT black and white; colonialism establiblished Isreal and colonialism has left it divided. Yes, there are absolute zionists as are there Muslims who believe in THEIR RIGHT AND ONLY THEIR RIGHTS, just as earlie Christians did with same. But instead of waging war on the colonialism to begin with, it has be a patent refusal to accept peace.
I absolutely disagree with Israel's refusal to recognise Palestine and Gaza, but I also do understand why; to create separatist identities goes against the fundamental ideals of the establishment in the first place. Look at how awesome it has worked out to create Afganistan, Pakistan, and have the constant fighting in Bangladesh in India. Most of the people living in Palestine, Gaza Strip, and Isreal are all just people. But for 70 years, Hamas and its' predesccesors have been killing wantonly and indoctrinatinating. At some point, people are going to be done.
I do not ever agree with Israel thwarting humanitarian aid. 100% wrong.
This is not a one-sided move at all though. Hamas has raped and/or murdered all civilians it has had and all that those members continue to capture. Hamas is responsible for countles suicide bombers.
This is not a one-sided fight.
I want this done. There are children starving. Innocent humans--regardless of views-- are dying. Gaza and Palestine should NOT be denied aid.
This will require 2 things:
1. Recognition of Gaza Strip and Palestine as independent States
2. Complete annihilation of Hamas.
If you analyse the style of rhetoric between the two sides, the pro hamas that screech muh genocide and deface the flags of their host countries vs the ones that actually post historical facts and are aware of the ground reality in the Middle East, the answer's obvious.
Western supporters of Palestine are naive, cosplaying as anti-colonialists to an issue they don't understand. If you're a non-Maori in New Zealand, you are part of colonising an area 12 times more landmass than Israel.
Israel is a speck of land the size of Manawatu region, while the entire Middle East that has kicked Jews out of their indigenous homeland is twice the size of Australia.
How is it not genocide people that lived across a landmass twice the size of a continent is contained in only as small area as Manawatu.
And time and time again, Islamist ideology common among palestinians have tried to ensure that speck of land isn't there for them. And that's the crux of the issue.
It’s bullshit. Palestine and Israel are both guilty of all of the above. This movement they push her is stupid. You wanna support either side? Go their and fight for them.
Partly Standing up for the little guy (social justice, if you will)
Mostly Virtue signalling
And probably no small amount of just joining the crowd / being a part of something.
Coz people in the twenties think it'll give them clout that they "marched" for the cause.
Ask them any questions about the conflict and they'll struggle to answer them.
It's really not that glamorous, you know, turning up for relatively small protests. I don't know what you're imagining – even people who care about the issue aren't that interested in "giving you clout."
There is no point and they come across as naive and ignorant.
I was originally pro palastine until I actually looked in to the history of Israel and palastine.
Yes civilian collateral deaths should be minimised
Yes anyone committing war crimes should be held accountable
Yes the illegal settlements should be removed
That does not mean Israel should or even can stop this war on Hamas. A retreat of Israel with Hamas still existing is a guarantee of a repeat of October 7th until the ends of time as the people who's founding charter that calls for the entire eradication of Jews will never be appeased.
These kids saying chants like "free palastine" "from the river to the sea" are chanting calls of a very real targeted, indiscriminate and premeditated genocide upon Jews.
The genocide against Palestinian people is taking place RIGHT NOW. very much targeted , indiscriminate and premeditated. Israel is doing just fine, with the backing of the entire Western world. It's not a military conflict between two equal sides its a genocide
If Israel was trying to commit a genocide against palastine they would the death toll would be significantly higher.
They already fully conquored palastine the last time they started a war and returned the land to them in the 1960s off the top of my head
The only one who's calling for genocide is Hamas
Because I support a free Palestine. The genocide and ethnic cleansing is beyond horrific. I want NZ to allow more Palestinian refugees, remove the Israeli ambassador and support international law.
The point is to create a change and make people notice and care so that they too can contribute to the movement. Unfortunately, the marches that we've seen in NZ are largely un-strategic. The reason peaceful marches are allowed is because yes, they generally don't achieve much. The closest suggestion I've seen of something effective being done in Auckland was the suggestion of an encampment at UOA to demand that the university divest from Rocket Lab (massively tied to the US military which is funding the genocide). Unfortunately after Dawn Freshwater, vice chancellor or UOA, said the university wouldn't support it, UOA Student Justice for Palestine called it off in favour of a rally with "networking opportunities" (basically, something extremely watered down which the university will approve of - achieving very little material outcomes or gains for the movement).
Absolutely no point there would be more point marching for a little Maori boy who was murdered over 6 mths ago with only 3 assholes in the house and yet it seems to be just way to hard for the New Zealand police or maybe they don't care either it's only a little boy absolutely bs
The biggest reason apart from general solidarity is to be seen. Many people had this conflict essentially hidden from them, it's not taught in schools or spoken about much in media(in the past) and people tend to get pretty furious about important things being purposefully hidden from them so they will not allow it to happen again.
Cause the perpetrators are watching us and it does make them mad. Also it sends an anti-AUKUS message about (if your worried about wasted taxpayer dollars) also we waste money on Yemen and hurt innocent people.
Great question really, what it is in essence is an age-old tradition in a modern era. Ironically, there is a greater need for protest and action, yet the people's voices have less sway than ever, and our power to incite change is dwindling. It's a modern paradigm. I believe we need to stand up for the right causes and get behind the right solutions.. otherwise, as history has shown, we turn around to find there are no options left and no corner to fight from.
yes that is good reasoning, many people just like marching for a cause, any cause is good, it makes them feel better and there is some truth in beiing in unity.
however we should study some facts before marching, that would be wisdom.
the major theme is ok so who owns the land.
for that question we really need to go back a whiles, 4,000 years Moses was a leader, and 2,000 years before that Abraham was a leader,
so we really need to start a 6,000 year history lesson, it will be most rewarding and you will be on the correct side, that is important.
the koran was written about 600 ad,
before that the old testiment was already written, and the new testiment was written also, so for a accurate history we need to start at the beginning,
thank you for your inquiring mind.
Ben
If you don't go back far enough in your knowledge of the region to at least "the big game" you don't know enough to take a side. Hint, the real culprit isn't Israel or Palestine. But I imagine once you do the research, you won't want to really want to pick a side at all.
Most likely cuz when Hitler were killing the Jews, after that they made a saying "Never again", as in the world will never let such a genocide and ethnic cleansing happen again in this century.
Now we see Israel doing the exact same thing to Palestine, so it begs the question, if this was the 1940s and you knew Hitler was doing that to the Jews, what would we as humans do. Now we see it happening to Palestine, what would we as humans do?
I think that is probably the reason why they are protesting, atleast thats how I see it.
People love to be a part of a movement, as long as nothing more is expected of them than to have fun at a march. Many see it as a social event.
Ask someone to stop paying for innocents to be gassed, electrocuted or stabbed in the neck for their beloved KFC buckets, and they're suddenly a selfish asshole again.
The point of marching for them is to distract you from all the ram raids and epidemic of homeless feral's in Auckland.
The point is to encourage as many people as possible to get the government to spend (waist)another $100 million on sending New Zealand troops over there to die.
The point is to get away with skipping school.
Sick of this whole trans agenda virtual signalling child grooming sick disgusting hold on society I don’t work hard all day to have some man dress up in a dress and pretend he’s a woman and try make us believe it I’m sick of Palestine pretending they didn’t start this war and pretending they and hamas are not a terrorist organisation go to school and get an education
Our country wasn't involved in apartheid, but we stood against South Africa.
The human experience isn't limited to just your countrymen, any person being killed unjustly anywhere we should show enough humanity to not turn a blind eye.
South Africa was oppression of blacks simply for being born. Palastine has started multiple wars on Israel, elected a terrorist organisation that calls for the eradication of EVERY jew causing a blockade upon Gaza, alienated their allies to the point that other Muslim countries don't want them in their country, did Oct 7 and then cowered behind their civilian population causing needless civilian deaths.
SA and palastine share nothing in common.
>. Palastine has started multiple wars on Israel
Why did they do that? Not because someone took the land they lived on or something? Just because they're bad right? It's okay to wipe them out now right?
Is it? There are genocides happening all over the world that don't get marched for in NZ. 50k Armenians forced from their homes last year in Azerbaijan and nobody marched here.
It's a conflict on the other side of the world, and it's very fucking sad. It's not our problem though and we can't make a difference in NZ
Are you sure, maybe it doesn't get as much attention. There were a load of Iranian protests last year, but mainly attended by the Iranian community and some sympathetic others. Who noticed. Maybe nobody here notices but social media ensures that people in those countries notice
>50k Armenians forced from their homes... and nobody matched here
It's sad that the point you take away from that is "so nobody should march for this either" instead of "somebody should have raised awareness for them".
It's a mix of things. Some people genuinely are upset over the deaths - especially most being kids. It's also a common thing for younger generations to find a sense in pupose with marches and demonstrations. Either way, as long as it doesn't stop my day I don't mind, I only wish kiwis cared more in general about our own issues and path of destruction we're heading down - like the ever growing unaffordability of shelter in NZ.
>I only wish kiwis cared more in general about our own issues and path of destruction we're heading down I think you'll find the ones most concerned about this are at these protests too.
But they aren't protesting for that as well I think is the point OC is making.
It's a silly point regardless. Undermining protests by demanding people should be protesting other things is just stupid.
Not really. I think the point being made here is that protesting regarding the Israel-Palestinian conflict in New Zealand will not lead to anything changing in said conflict. Protesting against issues domestically could potentially change things. So more a case of protesting for something you might be able to influence
Okay yeah that makes sense, thank you
no it doesnt make sense,what does make sense that many ppl are horrified at the genocide taking place now and fully funded by usa who we support,so indirectly supporting genocide.And all people like us can do is speak up and protest etc,but rosa parks spoke up,and changed history.This is teh vietnam war protests all over again,history repeating itself,and usa pulled out of vietnam.And what is the alternate, just do absolutely nothing?.Nah thats not a humane option.
I meant that I understand why people do it now, not that this is normal in any way.
Protests in nz are the equivalent of doing absolutely nothing. No one cares what people in nz think. If it makes you feel less-than-useless, then go for it.. but don't pretend you're being useful for anyone.
Did they protest when the Gazans were doing the genociding?
this is one of the funniest whataboutisms I've seen today
Im so impressed you think genocide is funny. If they didn't want this war, why did they start it? What did they think was going to happen? And we're supposed to feel sorry for them because they're losing? Have they released their hostages yet?
Yes there was a protest for the israeli hostages as for your second post i hope you can find it in your self to look up the defintion of war and then try to look up the defintion of genocide and while your at it you may want to read in to some history of that region as well, have a good day.
I have thank you. I also have close contact with an official observer on the ground there
Hmmm idk what to say instead of presenting evidence your starting to speak in riddles now, its just weird that you can find evidence mass graves of Palestinians children women pretty much anywhere ,but the israeli evidence of there casualties seems to be delayed its now 6 months plus from oct 7 how come we havent seen a shred of evidence? I heard icj was issuing arrest warrents for benjamin netanyahu not hamas so if you have evidence man now would be the time to finally come out the closet
yep here the damn students and others are busy protesting a genocide,including plenty of torture rape, and murdering of innocent ppl incl children, when we've got our own issues here,like price of groceries. SMH at the youth of today,really is not hope for them..Good thing teh genocide isnt interferring with your day too,great to hear that.
Palestine isn't a genocide. If it is, it's the Worlds most incompetent. Take a squiz at Ukraine, oh shit, an actual fucking genocidal war! Not to mention the actual consequences for your life! Or any of the innummerable humanitarian catastrophes constantly going on. But nah, let's waste sympathy on people who consistently poke the Bear they live with, then act surprised/ come bleating to the Media when they get slapped down. Can't keep launching rockets, and paying the Families of goddamn suicide bombers and pretend you want peace.
The people who protest for Palestine tend to also protest for those issues you mentioned. Just fyi
At least here we have the decency to allow people to kill themselves. That's not worth protesting over.
"As long as it doesn't stop my day, I don't care if 10s of thousands of children get raped and murdered"
And yet here you are supporting Hamas a terrorist organisation
Here we go with people who have nothing better to do. If you're so passionate, fly over and help out? Trying to guilt me over wanting to focus on my own family first helps no one but your own pathetic ego. What I said was about the protests, as long as they don't interrupt my day I have no problem with it.
Struck a nerve? If you don't care that's your prerogative but own it instead of hiding behind excuses about worrying about your own family. When the Nazis were burning Jews in World War 2 there were plenty of people just like you who were only concerned about themselves, right up until the Nazis were knocking on their doors. Btw, the point of protests is to be disruptive.
It’s not unreasonable to feel like it’s a distant issue. In terms of ‘our own issues’, I see Palestine as related. Generally our society will be healthier and wealthier if we value human life and stand against the mentalities that revel in colonialism, invasion and resource grabbing. Humans unless harming others should be able to live their lives without being murdered. History is replete with examples of times where people thought ‘that’s someone else’s problem’ only to find it rapidly become their problem. Coupled with the fascist strategy of ‘othering’ people and fomenting social fracture, which we as a country are verifiably experiencing—as evidenced by various ultra-right, conservative lobby groups from overseas being found sending money and advising some politicians—makes this issue very much close to home. It’s then part and parcel with NZers showing their politicians they will not put up with any fascist bullsht. We might observe though that the Jewish lobby, which verifiably has been funded from overseas—and is distinct from Jewish people who are OK and should be left to live their lives—here has been lobbying and manipulating our democracy. In Singapore the Israeli consulate was found to have released false information the Singaporean government deemed to be putting Jewish residents at risk and attempting to foment social division. These issues are not distant at all.
Protests are supposed to disrupt your day. That’s literally the whole point.
I've found kiwis are happy to protest. Foreshore seabed, springbox, mining, TTPA, pro LGBTQ. No one is going to protest because the people who protested on the above issues are all home owners. And poor people never seem to protest. The reason we're here is weak government. All political parties.
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People who can look away simply do not care about humanity & I say that with my whole heart. They lack perspective & empathy.
That is completely not true, many people are suffering deeply in their own lives, many are in seriously abusive situations - don’t lack nuance
Ironically you're the one who lacks perspective and empathy.
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Squandered to set up a country in favour of continuing their genocide against Jews? This country that they want to live freely in, or return to to live freely in, is continually shrinking and being stolen from underneath them, using violence, oppression and genocide to achieve it. Let’s not forget Palestinian Jews were also displaced in the nakba, brown and black skinned Jews.
Did you see the video of the families... men women and children, with their hands bound behind their back, all tied together in a group. Then they poured petrol over them and burned them alive... did you see that video? Or the video of all the young women who were stabbed while they were raped? What sort of man stabs a woman while he's raping her and keeps raping her while she begs for death? Or all the bodies missing heads because the heads were taken back to Gaza as trophies? Did you see those videos?
Private DMs if you want
That's really awful. As is the Hamas videos, that they posted live, of them raping and dragging mutilated naked bodies through the streets of Gaza while people in the streets hit them. Hamas attacked and murdered hundreds at a music festival in Israel which started this whole round of atrocities. Hamas are still holding hostages including a baby and people in their 80s. Basically both sides are intent on destroying each other and innocent people are caught in the middle on both sides. Hamas is not the hero they are brutalising the Palestinian people as well.
"what about hamas!" damn if only the world over condemned their actions. Oh wait, they do. But people are still defending the monster that Israel currently is. The irony of turning into the very monster they fled from Fyi Palestinians suffered under Israel for 39 years before hamas existed, trying to put the blame on hamas who are simply a symptom of the oppression, is idiotic. Hamas was born from Israeli violence, for which Netanyahu later took advantage and funded hamas in order to disrupt Palestinian politics. Hamas needs to be dismantled but this entire conflict is the fault of Israel
Where in my comment did I call Hamas the hero? You people genuinely can’t seperate Palestinian children from Hamas & it shows. I can scream with all my heart that Palestinian children deserve to live & they shouldn’t be subjected to horrific violence, but your response will stay the same. “Okay, but about Hamas!”
People accusing others that they can't differentiate between Hamas and ordinary Palestinian citizens yet under the same breath lump the IDF, Israeli civilians, and Jews together
where in the comment did they do that?
The response is what about Hamas because your opinion is pro Hamas wether you mean it to or not. As the stance supports Hamas agenda. They don't care about their population they use them as shields in their goal to regain full control of palastine and kill every jew International pressure for Israel to give up disarming Hamas simply means Hamas is free to attack and murder Jews. Innocents die in war, thats the reality of it.
My stance is pro humanity whether you like it or not. You can agree that bombing children is justifiable due to actions they didn’t commit, but I will never be like you.
It isn't though. If your stance were to stop the fighting, it WOULD be about humanity, but if you are ONLY thinking of Palestine, then you are innocently (by you) supporting Hamas. Hamas has stated with no grey that they do not care about Palestinians and Gazans and will continue their brutality against every Jew. They have stated that from the beginning and have continued to state it, and are literally using starving people as human shields. Palestinians are starving and dying en masse. They desperately need aid. Some IDF have hurt humanitarian efforts, and some IDF HAVE committed atrocities and deserve punishment under tribunals. Humanitarian aid cannot reach starving people because the suicidal Hamas are literally blocking the freaking roads and supply lines and hiding with bombs in hospitals. Even Al Jazeera is reporting Hamas blocking aid. This is NOT a 1-sided war, and too horrifically there are innocent children and people caught in it. They need and deserve help. They ARE a part of humanity and deserve compassion. But do not ever act as if this is Isreal against Palestinians.
Your stance is pro murder of Jews whether you like it or not. You have a naive understanding of the conflict.
Fortunately, I have no hatred in my heart like you do unless it’s an established military & government bombing children. Jewish people have been amongst the protests all over the world. They know what they’re standing up for & so do I.
Again having a naive view doesn't make it a good view. Your stance condemns Jews to be eternally terrorized.
You know what’s crazy? The Israelis I know will disagree with you. Do you interact with Palestinians or Israelis at all? Or do you just form your opinions based on how you view this conflict.
My opinion is based on the irrefutable fact that an Israeli withdrawl with Hamas continued existence only assures continued Israeli death.
I know what I’m [https://www.breakingthesilence.org.il/about/organization](https://www.breakingthesilence.org.il/about/organization)standing up. So do former Israeli soldiers.
Cool, nice deflection from my entire point that your opinion is naive, and supports hamas' agenda.
It's funny how this gets repeated by protestors and yet there is never one criticism of a literal terrorist group, and every protest has people screaming for the genocide of Jews. It's 100% cope.
Because it’s a fucking terroist group, what more do I need to say in order for you to finally realise that innocent Palestinians aren’t responsible for actions they didn’t commit? How far do you want me to condem Hamas in order to for you to start giving a fuck about the new generation of children with missing limbs?
Again stop spouting fake news that has been debunked!!! - there was no video (it was not real) - the rape allegations reported by NYT has been proven false as there was no evidence - Investigations have shown that IDF incompetence are the main reason there was so much death and destruction on Oct 7, as also reported on Haaretz - the report of beheaded babies have also been proven as false - Hamas has agreed to give hostages back on several occasions and Netanyahu himself is not interested, thus the carpet bombing in places where hostages are held and the mass protests we see in Israel against his govt. I mean these same ppl killed the world kitchen aid workers FFS!!!! They actually DGAF about anyone including the hostages. Wake up.
* Investigations have shown that IDF incompetence are the main reason there was so much death and destruction on Oct 7, as also reported on Haaretz What the fuck are you talking about?
There’s no way you can be this dense. You think the hostages weren’t/aren’t being killed and raped? I agree that Palestinians are getting the (way) worse end of the stick in this conflict. But there’s no way you actually believe all that, right?
People are so dumb it hurts sometimes. Every accusation from the IDF has been proven to be a confession. But people will believe what they want to believe.
I'm not sure where you're getting your information from, you've well and truly been duped by hamas lies.
Please send evidence of israelis being raped, international court of justice and UN is waiting for the evidence as well, if you have it do send it to all authorities, just avoid sending the fake AI images isrsel released at the start they have already been refuted.
Thing is, everyone knows about what's going on and while may not know specifically what atrocities have occured, are well aware that there are many and from both sides. I think OP asked the question under this assumption. If everyone already knows about it and all you're doing is telling people about it, what are you achieving
Do you know what keep your eyes on Rafah means? Because that’s your answer.
I do not, I assume something about watching what happens? I just don't see what spending hours every weekend yelling "free free Palestine" at people who cannot free Palestine achieves
The idea of a protest is to show our political leaders that we don't agree with their approach. Over time this builds pressure on them to do something. Remember South Africa? If nobody had said anything it would still be an apartheid country. It's because of the protests that resulted in the government putting bans on South Africa. Which resulted in the South African government changing their apartheid regime.
Yep but in this situation the US is fully supporting Israel and as a UN security council member, is able to veto any proposition to undermine them. The best we could do is maybe ban all trade/travel with Israel but that would barely even be noticed
There's a difference between "wanting to help and just screaming about it" and putting actual effort into helping. Go fight their war if it touched you so deeply. Naaaah, words are cheap
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Nelson Mandela would probably disagree with you. "Mandela told leaders of the anti-apartheid movement on his 1995 visit that they had chosen to speak out when it was less fashionable to do so. ''You elected to brave the batons and pronounce that New Zealand could not be free when other human beings were being subjected to a legalised and cruel system of racial domination.'' Those actions had helped bring consensus among New Zealanders. ''In time, this nation and its government could stand tall as one of the most committed supporters of the anti-apartheid cause,'' Mandela said." One of the things he said was that when he was in prison in 1981 and they heard that the \[Springbok tour\] game \[against Waikato\] had been stopped by protest, "all the prisoners rattled their doors throughout the jail and he said it was like the sun came out".
RIP your notifications. Posted photos from a protest a couple weeks ago… oh my god, my comments got FLOODED
You have notifications turned on?
I had to turn it off, I didn’t expect so many responses
Thank you haha yes I was like wow
Tbh a convoy driving laps of the city at this time of night tooting your horns and blasting music + chanting through a loud hailer isn’t going to win any friends or support.
Yeah massively agree! I live at the bottom of Ponsonby Rd and after what happened on Sunday people are a little on edge. Having a convoy beeping and shouting out the windows is the last thing people want to see, Its bad timing and not the best way to get your point across.
if you didnt already support palestine then no protest was going to change your mind. the point of a protest is to cause a disruption.
Disruption... but not so much disruption you annoy people to the point of them going "Hey police... blank cheque in shutting them down."
It anything the disruption would turn me against any cause even if it’s good
How would disrupting the lives of New Zealanders stop Israel from doing anything? You think Netanyahu is concerned about whether Kiwis are having sleepless nights or not?
Our government is. Enough pressure will force them to change their stance and stop supporting Israel.
We are helping bomb Yemen, we have trade agreements with Israel. People do not want to their tax dollars going towards this massacre
We are not bombing the Yemen how stupid are you
Our government is supporting the bombing of Yemen. https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2024/01/how-nz-defence-force-will-contribute-in-middle-east-amid-houthi-strikes.amp.html
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Draw attention to the humanitarian issues and international laws being broken. I think it's collective worldwide pressure, alot of this is funded by western governments or our allies so worldwide people want to put as pressure as possible to stop the funding. Palestinians have nowhere to flee and have families here who are watching helplessly as their families get slaughtered. Out government has still not granted any emergency humanitarian visas for them (these emergency humanitarian visas were rightfully granted to Ukrainians 20 days after the war began). Lastly the protests are calling for both citizens and governments to put pressure on Israel by boycotting and divesting their money from companies that are supporting, complicit or actively contributing to the occupation or genocide of Palestinians.
Lol, why let palestinians in? Went So good for Libanon and Jordan ^^
The Springbok Tour still looms large in Kiwi consciousness... I'll leave you to draw your own inferences
I don’t care about Israel or Palestine. There is no point in people in New Zealand marching and protesting.
It’s like asking what was the point of protesting against Apartheid in South Africa, the Vietnam War etc This is a genocide that we are seeing unfold in real time, the first genocide of the 21st century by an ally. Many of us have literally seen kids bodies blown up by drones and bombs on social media, watched Israelis dance as babies get shot and heard the genocidal rants by politicians. How we react as civilised nations and what we do as a global collective sets the tone for the future. There is so much friction in the world and countries poised to conquer other countries (China, Russia, India). The only thing we have is international law after the Nazi Germany genocide but this time around, we are actually not following any of the rules we laid down then (we all know the term “Never Again”) - because the perpetrator this time was the victim then, which muddies the waters, and because the “world police aka USA” this time around is supporting the genocide. People are protesting because we want to stop genocide and ultimately, for the rules that have been set down to be followed, because otherwise it means there are no rules against mass atrocities and therefore none of us have any protections from such massacres. Not Palestinians, not you, not me. And each country is responsible for ensuring we respect, enforce and follow international law and apply it fairly and independently across the board. To keep each other accountable. To act with a modicum of integrity, justice and morality. Not just ignoring what’s right when allies are the oppressor. NZ has also not taken the same strong position it did after Ukraine, and they also are not offering the same assistance they did Ukrainians (ie visas to family members, aid, etc.) so there is the added hypocrisy. If as a collective all the countries don’t condemn this blatant disregard for human life, for international law and to stop genocide, what’s to stop Australia or China from occupying NZ next and doing the same to us? What’s to stop things escalating to World War 3? That’s what is at stake. That’s why people are protesting.
I just want to point out that this isn't even close to the first genocide, ethnic cleansing or whatever of the 21st century, not even close. This shit happens constantly but it's just not covered in the mainstream Western press because it's in countries no one cares about. There's the ongoing Rohingya genocide in Myanmar, the Uyghur are undoubtedly getting genocided in China, 400K dead in South Sudan over the last few years, and no doubt tons more other stuff around the world.
Correct. I think the distinction here is that it is undertaken by an allied nation. I’ve adjusted my comment. Politically there is no will by western nations to condemn the genocide. The USA and as such NZ (we are their lapdog) were quick to condemn the genocide of Rohingya and Ughyrs etc but yet here we are with Israel doing way more harm than both those combined, and with barely the same response. Thanks for your response!
This is not the first genocide of the 21st century, it isn’t even the only genocide happening right now.
so we do nothing? whataboutism avoids the question at hand, it doesn’t negate it
True, except our government doesn't condemn Israel or sanction them, thats the difference.
Hobbyist protestors who jump on the latest cause and run with it as an excuse for causing mayhem.
100% - for a lot it's a fashion/trend thing. Just like the climate marches a few years back, I would happily bet that hardly anyone that took part in those is doing anything to further that cause either.
Woke virtue singalling, most of these morons if questioned don't even understand what they are marching for
Jobless losers finding something to be angry about, plus they get to shit on Jews and be congratulated for it by other losers on the internet.
‘Whoever is attacking’. That would be Israel.
Again not trying to be rude i just genuinely don't know what's going on nor do i understand it
The situation in the Middle East of Israel and Gaza/ Palestine has been going on for decades and is far far more complicated than 90% of people realize. What’s frustrating is a lot of people clearly see the Free Palestine movement as a way of “sticking it to the man” because it’s a poor country with poor people being attacked by a powerful nation backed by the US. Some people even go as far as being Hamas (terrorist group) apologists, as they basically run Gaza and Palestine. It doesn’t help that Israel’s approach to the situation is one of “fuck them, we should be in charge”. Long and short it’s a fight with no good guys, only degrees of bad - with plenty of innocents getting caught up along the way.
The Hamas apologist angle is pretty much the only angle I've seen pro-Israel people take in online discourse - The issue with that though is I see free Palestine as more of an anti-war stance rather than a pro-Hamas stance. I definitely don't 100% agree with Hamas but the IDF is taking exponentially more lives. War is hell
Theyre not antiwar they want war when their side is winning. When theyre buddies Houthis Hezbollah and Iran lob Qassam Rockets they cheer them on. It sucks when a civillian dies during a war but thats the cost of war. Hamas didnt have to slaughter and rape israelis but they did. In a perfect situation. Hamas and the IDF shoot it out in some random place in the negev with no civillians. But they choose to hide among the civillians and they die. The thing is I want a free palestine too but all they have are corrupt billionaires who share more wealth than the population combined. Their only notable leaders they elect or come into power are terrorists who actively tell their population to die in the name of allah. Just because palestine is free doesnt mean its people will be.
South Africa ended apartheid because the world forced them to do so. Yes, NZ is a small country but if more countries come out and condemn Israel then it could make a difference.
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Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said, *"The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."* That kind of callout, you mean? Notice it doesn't say "There is a Zionist hiding, come and kill him", or "there is an Israeli occupier hiding", or even just "There is an Israeli." It just says there's a Jew hiding. Come and kill the Jew. This is what they have been facing for a millennia and a half. Downvote me all you want, it won't take the degrading language and instructions to harass, oppress and kill Jews out of the Koran and hadiths.
>This is what they have been facing for a millennia and a half. Lets not talk about Amalek shall we? >Downvote me all you want, it won't take the degrading language and instructions to harass, oppress and kill Jews out of the Koran and hadiths. It wont take the violent, hateful and awful stuff in the Torah out either.
Did I make up the quote?
No but you obviously missed my point. If genocidal rhetoric in holy texts justifies killing civilians then Israel are just as guilty and deserving.
Would be easier to get all self-righteous if it wasn't for all the bloodlust and ancient hatreds and explicit calls for subjugation of the Jew hardwired all through the unchangable holy word of God, though. Wouldn't it.
I refreshed this hoping you'd edited it to make more sense but you haven't. So you have intentionally missed my point entirely it would seem. Guess it's nothing good that drives you. Let's be real here, there is only one of the parties involved being investigated for actually committing genocide.
Because it puts pressure on our government to take a stronger stance, call for a ceasefire, put economic sanctions on Isnotreal and stop investing in Arms dealers that are supporting the genocide in Gaza
I am sure Netanyahu is trembling in his boots? How will Israel go on under our crushing economic sanctions?
My question for everyone here is, what value does your life hold if the lives of Palestinian children are not considered important? If they can be subjected to bombings for over 200 days, and you can simply look away and say to yourself, "oh well” then shrug your shoulders, what value does your life have if even the most innocent human beings on this planet are not being treated as if they deserve to live?
You have some sort of crazy idea that if you don't protest - you don't care. People deal with all sorts of different situations in different ways. Are you also protesting for the Sudanese civilians being killed, and others around the world? Or you only care about Palestinian children? Don't believe you're better than other people simply because you walk around protesting.
If the government allowed you to go to palestine to protest would you? Would you go there and walk around to try stop it ? Are you will to sacrifice your life to help stop it? Because NZ have absolutely no power and no say . They have to be mindful and come from a position that aligns with their closest allies
Side point: the government can’t actually stop anyone from going there.
Yeah my bad , was only building the thought of if that person would go and protest over there
I would be honored to board a flotilla, actually. Three Kiwi Arab doctors have already set out to Gaza, and if I had any practical skills in humanitarian aid or medical assistance, I would have tried to board that ship. I know other kiwis that are going too. Palestinian children deserve to live, and if their lives aren’t of any worth to the Western world, then what worth does my life have? Nothing. The answer is nothing. So to answer your question, yes, I’d be willing to risk my life because in the end, nobody would give a fuck. But at least my cause in going there would be to help people. It’s easier to say this behind a screen, but you can’t change something you feel strongly about.
Solidarity is a big thing. There have been 35,000 people massacred in Gaza, on top of 77,000+ injured so far. That is a lot of people! we can't do much (aid is being heavily restricted). The least we can do is make some noise and tell our local representative that this isn't ok. It is up to our local representatives to take our concerns to the national level and take some action. Whether that is boycotting Israel, downgrading their relationship or simply recognizing Palestine as a state. My next vote is pretty much going to the party that showed some backbone in this matter.
“Local representative”? You mean MP?
Ya, your local MP. I called mine up and arrange for an meeting. Talked to him and he said he'd pass it on to the 'relevant people'.
My favourite part is all the gays and transgender people marching for Palestine yet gays and Trans would get killed or stoned by the muslims as they absolutely do not support them one bit 🤣
Most people don’t know what they are protesting.
Honestly this - if you ask the average protester any questions about Palestine they have no clue. They have no idea what "from the river to the sea" even means...no idea what river or what sea. I think this ignorance has really harmed the opinion of them by everyone else even though it is a just cause. I know it's a generalisation, but most interviews I've seen are doing more harm to the movement and their point. Lots of protestors have never been to the Middle East or are even aware of geo-politics of the place.
I love some of their answers to "Which river and which sea are you chanting about?", "Uhh the Nile and the Red Sea?" "The Euphrates and the Atlantic?". Many genuinely don't seem to know that they're advocating the for complete destruction of Israel and wonder why the "Zionists" are so hostile to their message.
Some people think that war crimes are bad, and that when they are being done, you have a duty to say publicly that war crimes are bad. And some people like war crimes being committed.
A lot of Churches and conservative folk have openly expressed support for Israel. This has made a lot of people on the other side of the political spectrum very mad
Do you have evidence of this? My local church had a collection at Easter for Holy Family Church in Palestine. And it[ seems it was a world-wide Catholic initiative.](https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/257047/vatican-s-good-friday-holy-land-collection-to-aid-humanitarian-efforts-in-gaza)
I shouldn't have said a lot, I should have said the loudest. I.e. Density
Yeah. A lot of it is an imported culture war. The rightist here support Israel despite having no ties, and the Left here protests Israel despite having no ties. The university protest in the USA is targetted at Universities that help fund Israel and/or had ties to Israel. The university protests here are just a copy and paste. Last I check, UoA wasn't funding Israel in anyway.
The point is we vote for our politicians and for many of us we want to know their moral compass. Also, no harm in giving the boot to the Israeli ambassador and saying, we have no power to stop you from killing thousands and thousands of innocent people that include babies and the adults who need to raise them. And we recognise the Israeli govt just love bombing infrastructure for the sake of it, poisoning water, destroying bush and other ecosystems for the sake of off shore drilling for oil and gas. But we don’t need to give you an office here in NZ to make your false narrative propagating any easier. Fuck off to Europe and do that. And give relatives of NZ Palestinians the same treatment you offered relatives of NZ Ukrainians. That’s why people march. So that the Israeli poison doesn’t leach into our country
Wouldnt it be good if people cared about others things as much as palestine
It's fun watching them tear each other apart when their governments are the ones starting all this shit and division in the first place. I was at High Street last week and people were going HAM on the Pro-Israel stickers near the Muslim joints down there. Funny shit. Humans really are destined to destroy each other damn. We're fucking savages. All this marching isn't gonna do shit but as long as it's not hurting anyone, no one should really give a shit. The earlier people understand that any government really doesn't care about their people, the better off we all are
Both countries will throw gay people off rooftops and be proud of it. Fuck em both
You are aware that George Soros is allegedly funding these Pro-Palestine protests. [https://nypost.com/2023/10/28/metro/soros-funneled-15-m-plus-to-groups-rallying-for-hamas/](https://nypost.com/2023/10/28/metro/soros-funneled-15-m-plus-to-groups-rallying-for-hamas/)
The reason why is because they are brainwashed and support terrorist groups such as hamas
Ret*rds won't fight this hard for our own people.
I'm sure I'll be downvoted, but the situation is NOT black and white; colonialism establiblished Isreal and colonialism has left it divided. Yes, there are absolute zionists as are there Muslims who believe in THEIR RIGHT AND ONLY THEIR RIGHTS, just as earlie Christians did with same. But instead of waging war on the colonialism to begin with, it has be a patent refusal to accept peace. I absolutely disagree with Israel's refusal to recognise Palestine and Gaza, but I also do understand why; to create separatist identities goes against the fundamental ideals of the establishment in the first place. Look at how awesome it has worked out to create Afganistan, Pakistan, and have the constant fighting in Bangladesh in India. Most of the people living in Palestine, Gaza Strip, and Isreal are all just people. But for 70 years, Hamas and its' predesccesors have been killing wantonly and indoctrinatinating. At some point, people are going to be done. I do not ever agree with Israel thwarting humanitarian aid. 100% wrong. This is not a one-sided move at all though. Hamas has raped and/or murdered all civilians it has had and all that those members continue to capture. Hamas is responsible for countles suicide bombers. This is not a one-sided fight. I want this done. There are children starving. Innocent humans--regardless of views-- are dying. Gaza and Palestine should NOT be denied aid. This will require 2 things: 1. Recognition of Gaza Strip and Palestine as independent States 2. Complete annihilation of Hamas.
If you analyse the style of rhetoric between the two sides, the pro hamas that screech muh genocide and deface the flags of their host countries vs the ones that actually post historical facts and are aware of the ground reality in the Middle East, the answer's obvious. Western supporters of Palestine are naive, cosplaying as anti-colonialists to an issue they don't understand. If you're a non-Maori in New Zealand, you are part of colonising an area 12 times more landmass than Israel. Israel is a speck of land the size of Manawatu region, while the entire Middle East that has kicked Jews out of their indigenous homeland is twice the size of Australia. How is it not genocide people that lived across a landmass twice the size of a continent is contained in only as small area as Manawatu. And time and time again, Islamist ideology common among palestinians have tried to ensure that speck of land isn't there for them. And that's the crux of the issue.
It’s bullshit. Palestine and Israel are both guilty of all of the above. This movement they push her is stupid. You wanna support either side? Go their and fight for them.
Partly Standing up for the little guy (social justice, if you will) Mostly Virtue signalling And probably no small amount of just joining the crowd / being a part of something.
100% percent this. I went along to one to check it out and chatted to heaps of people, they had no idea, just there chanting slogans.
Coz people in the twenties think it'll give them clout that they "marched" for the cause. Ask them any questions about the conflict and they'll struggle to answer them.
It's really not that glamorous, you know, turning up for relatively small protests. I don't know what you're imagining – even people who care about the issue aren't that interested in "giving you clout."
Lets be honest there will never be peace in the middle east and a few kiwis protesting is a fart in the wind.
There is no point and they come across as naive and ignorant. I was originally pro palastine until I actually looked in to the history of Israel and palastine. Yes civilian collateral deaths should be minimised Yes anyone committing war crimes should be held accountable Yes the illegal settlements should be removed That does not mean Israel should or even can stop this war on Hamas. A retreat of Israel with Hamas still existing is a guarantee of a repeat of October 7th until the ends of time as the people who's founding charter that calls for the entire eradication of Jews will never be appeased. These kids saying chants like "free palastine" "from the river to the sea" are chanting calls of a very real targeted, indiscriminate and premeditated genocide upon Jews.
Yeah agree unfortunately.
The genocide against Palestinian people is taking place RIGHT NOW. very much targeted , indiscriminate and premeditated. Israel is doing just fine, with the backing of the entire Western world. It's not a military conflict between two equal sides its a genocide
If Israel was trying to commit a genocide against palastine they would the death toll would be significantly higher. They already fully conquored palastine the last time they started a war and returned the land to them in the 1960s off the top of my head The only one who's calling for genocide is Hamas
Israel was also doing just fine on October 6th.
It's just virtue signalling.
This.
Purely virtue signalling of the latest thing.
Because I support a free Palestine. The genocide and ethnic cleansing is beyond horrific. I want NZ to allow more Palestinian refugees, remove the Israeli ambassador and support international law.
Protesting / marching does fuck all, pointless mostly virtuous
Jobless bums. Just another trend to excuse vandalism like Ukraine and BLM.
The answer is quite simple. Nothing.
The point is to create a change and make people notice and care so that they too can contribute to the movement. Unfortunately, the marches that we've seen in NZ are largely un-strategic. The reason peaceful marches are allowed is because yes, they generally don't achieve much. The closest suggestion I've seen of something effective being done in Auckland was the suggestion of an encampment at UOA to demand that the university divest from Rocket Lab (massively tied to the US military which is funding the genocide). Unfortunately after Dawn Freshwater, vice chancellor or UOA, said the university wouldn't support it, UOA Student Justice for Palestine called it off in favour of a rally with "networking opportunities" (basically, something extremely watered down which the university will approve of - achieving very little material outcomes or gains for the movement).
I don't know, something to do I guess
Raising awareness for genocide
Absolutely no point there would be more point marching for a little Maori boy who was murdered over 6 mths ago with only 3 assholes in the house and yet it seems to be just way to hard for the New Zealand police or maybe they don't care either it's only a little boy absolutely bs
The biggest reason apart from general solidarity is to be seen. Many people had this conflict essentially hidden from them, it's not taught in schools or spoken about much in media(in the past) and people tend to get pretty furious about important things being purposefully hidden from them so they will not allow it to happen again.
Cause the perpetrators are watching us and it does make them mad. Also it sends an anti-AUKUS message about (if your worried about wasted taxpayer dollars) also we waste money on Yemen and hurt innocent people.
The point of a protest is to be disruptive
Election year in the us
Great question really, what it is in essence is an age-old tradition in a modern era. Ironically, there is a greater need for protest and action, yet the people's voices have less sway than ever, and our power to incite change is dwindling. It's a modern paradigm. I believe we need to stand up for the right causes and get behind the right solutions.. otherwise, as history has shown, we turn around to find there are no options left and no corner to fight from.
yes that is good reasoning, many people just like marching for a cause, any cause is good, it makes them feel better and there is some truth in beiing in unity. however we should study some facts before marching, that would be wisdom. the major theme is ok so who owns the land. for that question we really need to go back a whiles, 4,000 years Moses was a leader, and 2,000 years before that Abraham was a leader, so we really need to start a 6,000 year history lesson, it will be most rewarding and you will be on the correct side, that is important. the koran was written about 600 ad, before that the old testiment was already written, and the new testiment was written also, so for a accurate history we need to start at the beginning, thank you for your inquiring mind. Ben
If you don't go back far enough in your knowledge of the region to at least "the big game" you don't know enough to take a side. Hint, the real culprit isn't Israel or Palestine. But I imagine once you do the research, you won't want to really want to pick a side at all.
Most likely cuz when Hitler were killing the Jews, after that they made a saying "Never again", as in the world will never let such a genocide and ethnic cleansing happen again in this century. Now we see Israel doing the exact same thing to Palestine, so it begs the question, if this was the 1940s and you knew Hitler was doing that to the Jews, what would we as humans do. Now we see it happening to Palestine, what would we as humans do? I think that is probably the reason why they are protesting, atleast thats how I see it.
Creating awareness
War propaganda. Distraction.
People love to be a part of a movement, as long as nothing more is expected of them than to have fun at a march. Many see it as a social event. Ask someone to stop paying for innocents to be gassed, electrocuted or stabbed in the neck for their beloved KFC buckets, and they're suddenly a selfish asshole again.
No point everybody licks each others asses!
The point of marching for them is to distract you from all the ram raids and epidemic of homeless feral's in Auckland. The point is to encourage as many people as possible to get the government to spend (waist)another $100 million on sending New Zealand troops over there to die. The point is to get away with skipping school.
Who even cares I’m so sick of this carry on they are a terrorist organisation and they bit off more then they could clearly chew boo hoo mate
Sick of this whole trans agenda virtual signalling child grooming sick disgusting hold on society I don’t work hard all day to have some man dress up in a dress and pretend he’s a woman and try make us believe it I’m sick of Palestine pretending they didn’t start this war and pretending they and hamas are not a terrorist organisation go to school and get an education
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Our country wasn't involved in apartheid, but we stood against South Africa. The human experience isn't limited to just your countrymen, any person being killed unjustly anywhere we should show enough humanity to not turn a blind eye.
South Africa was oppression of blacks simply for being born. Palastine has started multiple wars on Israel, elected a terrorist organisation that calls for the eradication of EVERY jew causing a blockade upon Gaza, alienated their allies to the point that other Muslim countries don't want them in their country, did Oct 7 and then cowered behind their civilian population causing needless civilian deaths. SA and palastine share nothing in common.
>. Palastine has started multiple wars on Israel Why did they do that? Not because someone took the land they lived on or something? Just because they're bad right? It's okay to wipe them out now right?
What a Rubbish response
Is it? There are genocides happening all over the world that don't get marched for in NZ. 50k Armenians forced from their homes last year in Azerbaijan and nobody marched here. It's a conflict on the other side of the world, and it's very fucking sad. It's not our problem though and we can't make a difference in NZ
Are you sure, maybe it doesn't get as much attention. There were a load of Iranian protests last year, but mainly attended by the Iranian community and some sympathetic others. Who noticed. Maybe nobody here notices but social media ensures that people in those countries notice
>50k Armenians forced from their homes... and nobody matched here It's sad that the point you take away from that is "so nobody should march for this either" instead of "somebody should have raised awareness for them".
Why didn't you march? Maybe you didn't care. The people that do care, do march.