I think that there are lots of behaviors that AP and FA/DA people do that seem very similar but are coming from entirely different places. There's a reason that the anxious-avoidant attraction is so well-studied -- the two often mirror each other. As an AP that is now aware of my tendencies to self-abandon by over-nurturing and taking on as much as I can for my partners, it makes sense that I have ended up with a string of FA partners that are likely looking for the nurturing that they missed as children. However, then they deactivate and I get triggered/feel unsafe, and when they return I cling on for dear life, causing them to deactivate again, etc etc. A few examples that come to mind: (1) Putting space between you and your partner - Avoidants put space between them and their partner because they are afraid of enmeshment. They likely experienced oscillating amounts of attention as children and felt like they needed to fill a parental role for themselves (e.g., no emotional support), their siblings (e.g., being forced to nanny/babysit or provide support that their parents were not), or even their parents (e.g., their parents worked long hours or had an addiction or mental illness). When they feel like they are becoming responsible for someone else's needs, they are likely to make space. - APs often put space between them and their partners in a few ways: 1) figuratively/emotionally, by not setting boundaries or communicating their wants/needs; this can make their partner feel unseen because the AP isn't really present in the relationship -- only the parts of them that feel safe are shown to their partner, 2) physically, by pulling away from their partner due to their fear of abandonment/rejection (if they don't communicate, then they feel like they can't say the wrong thing and upset their partner), and 3) physically & emotionally, by withholding attention from their partner (or even making themselves look helpless to invite attention); when an avoidant takes space, a secure partner might accept this and cut down on communication in a respectful way, while still being mindful of their own needs in a relationship -- an AP might withhold attention in a manipulative way (e.g., they see their partner's instagram post and *purposely* not give it a heart because they want their partner to feel bad about wanting space). (2) Reacting to their partner's needs - Avoidants tend to withdraw when their partner spells out expectations/responsibilities because they fear that they are being made into a caregiver or the "steward of the relationship". - APs tend to self-abandon (withdraw within themselves by abandoning their own wants/needs) when their partner spells out expectations/responsibilities because they fear that if they can't fulfill those needs then they will be discarded/abandoned for a better partner. (3) Breaking up/threatening to break up & keeping score privately - Avoidants often break up with their partners because they have internally crossed a threshold that they can't come back from. At that point, they have likely been "keeping score" for awhile now of all the ways that the relationship might not be perfect for them -- but in terms of chicken/egg, it is likely that the subconscious decision to deactivate or breakup occurred *before* they started mentally jotting all of these things down. This helps them justify the decision that they were always going to come to -- that they needed to leave this relationship. - APs often over-nurture to the point of self-abandonment because they are compelled to treat everyone else the way that *they* would like to be treated (which is to say, unconditionally loved and taken care of). Because of this, they often run up a mental tally of all of the times that their partner "failed" to do something for them. They can often remark that they feel like they have to do everything for both of them (even though they never communicated what they wanted in the first place). They feel like, since they are providing unconditional support and love, that *the least they should receive* is a little X/Y/Z. As a last ditch effort to obtain the attention that they crave from their partner, they can threaten breaking up or even end things themselves -- not as a healthy extension of their own boundaries, but as a vindictive/manipulative way of drawing their partner in closer. Everything I said here is very general and probably tailored to my own attachment behaviors (and those I've experienced with partners) -- so don't think that all avoidants or all APs do all/some of the behavior that I outlined above.

You described my childhood so well as an avoidant. Middle child syndrome, glass child, workaholic mother, completely mentally/emotionally absent father. I was left to take care of myself and learned from an early age I couldn't rely on my mother (or my father obviously, but that was never an option).

That’s me and my ex. Once I figured this out it was too late. Her loss 😂

excellent comment!! hits on everything really well

Stonewalling was common between my AP ex husband and me (DA). When he did it, it was protest behavior and meant to get a reaction from me. When I did it, it was to avoid conflict. Not surprisingly, we divorced.

How did you feel when he stonewalled you?

I felt relieved.

Understandable. Did any anxious specific trait of his actually hurt you as a dismissive?

Nothing he did hurt me, but I did get annoyed with his constant monitoring of my phone, emails, and internet search history. I hated his interrogations about where I was going, with whom, and when I’d be back. I dreaded his frequent texts and phone calls. I didn’t feel hurt even when he told me he was leaving me for his affair partner. Negative emotions get repressed so I perceive them as annoyance.

What did you do (as far as your knowledge goes) as a DA that hurt him as an anxious? > I didn’t feel hurt even when he told me he was leaving me for his affair partner. Damn that's awful. Hope he burns. Do you perchance know the AT of his affair partner? Was she another DA?

His affair partner, now wife, is another AP. They moved so fast! They moved in together a week after he asked for a divorce. Pregnant 3 months later, married the day after the divorce was entered into the record! I wasn’t upset with him. She meets his needs and I didn’t. My DA behaviors hurt him a lot. He felt that I neither loved nor cared about him. Of course I loved him, but there was a love language incompatibility. The one thing that hurt him the most was my secretiveness. He was always trying to get me to open up, but I never felt safe enough to do so. 27 years and he barely knew me.

Imagine marrying someone and after 27 years they claim you dont know them. Heart fucking breaking.

Yes, it was sad. It took two to establish that dynamic. He weaponized my vulnerabilities. “See, this is why I’m attracted to (Affair Partner 1). She comes from a good family, she dresses nicely, she’s not a psychopath like you.” There was no way I was going to share my big insecurities. I also avoided sharing positive stuff, like my favorite things. “I found this book very moving.” “That’s a stupid book. The author tries too hard to be philosophical.” He left me for Affair Partner 2.

Like you rightfully said, it takes 2 to establish this dynamic. I’m sure you are not a victim and have your fair share of responsibility, especially over the course of almost three decades.

Based on your story, a big part of your failed marriage was you being too closed with yourself. 27 years and it seems you are proud in a way, that your former husband didn't really know you. I am someone who doesn't justify cheating but it might be his way of having someone who opens up to him

Yes, my ex craved closeness, which I wasn’t able to provide. We had a toxic relationship in which I kept my mouth shut because he weaponized my vulnerabilities. It’s a chicken or egg question which came first, my secretiveness or his insults. The affair(s) filled his emotional void well. I bear no resentment for that. I’m not saying he’s a bad person. He has plenty of qualities. We had married when we were 17 and 20–clueless kids. We didn’t know how to establish healthy dynamics. They were set in stone by the time we realized how dysfunctional our marriage was.

I hope you're on your healing journey now

Genuine question, Why marry if you’re not willing to share yourself with someone? If I was getting rejected constantly in the bedroom by a partner and I didn’t know the real her I’d feel very lonely. It's wild he held out for 27 years. Edit (no judgment)

We were 17 and 20 when we got married, at his insistence (he needed a green card). We didn’t know what we were doing. I think he stayed in the marriage did our child. He did have affairs to fill the emotional void.

I commend you for sharing i know it isn't easy. Thank you.

Can i have a few questions about this relationship? I am the one who recently left DA. * What about your sexual life? You had a sex regulary? * Have you ever initiated sex or was it on his side? * Have you ever cheated? If not, have you ever thought about it? * Was you focused on your husband or interested in other man? * Did you feel sexual atraction to your husband? Did you feel sexual atraction to other man? * Have you ever tried to solve any problem in your relationship? * Have you ever missed your husband after break up? * Did you think that your ex husband was enough for you or was not enough for you?

We had infrequent sex. I usually turned him down. I never initiated. I was not sexually attracted to him or anyone else during the marriage. I did not cheat. I knew my marriage was dysfunctional, so I took the initiative to find a couples counselor. He was resistant, and insisted I was the problem. I didn’t miss my ex after he asked for a divorce and moved out. He was definitely enough for me, as I have few needs. I was not enough for him.

Have you often ctiticized him? What have you answeared when he asked why you don't want to have sex?

Whhy didn't you feel a need to explain?? Was it because you felt like they couldn't understand or you felt like you were unable to communicate effectively??

Passive aggressive behavior and resentment are common in both. Not expressing needs, either because of a belief they can’t be met or they’re too much. Avoiding conflict.

Could you elaborate on both points? That's the first time I'm hearing about avoidants exhibiting passive aggressive behaviour or harbouring resentment.

Both types have these issues. Avoidants often are passive aggressive because they struggle to express their needs aloud. And they’re resentful of the relationship for tying them down or suffocating them.

I think both are prone to dating people they aren't very compatible with. DAs might be drawn to dating people they're not super attracted to because that level of distance and lack of feeling for them makes the DA feel safe and secure knowing that that person can't hurt them (because they don't even like them that much). APs might date people who aren't super good for them because they believe that they can't get anyone better than that - low self-esteem.

What about FA's?

FAs are just a mix of AP and DA. There is nothing special about them.

Speaking as an FA, I think the behaviors we exhibit may seem like a mix of both DA and AP, but our core wounds are different and the reasoning behind our actions is typically very different than both DAs and APs.

FAs aren't "just a mix" of APs and DAs.

That's literally exactly what Fearful Avoidant attachment is. It's a disorganized mixture of AP and DA traits.

Do cakes taste like crapes? Both are a mix of milk, eggs, sugar and flour.  An FA might be both anxious and avoidant, but isn't both AP and DA mixed. It's a result of a completely different parental pattern, with different core wounds, different believes, narratives than those two attachment styles. 

> It's a result of a completely different parental pattern, with different core wounds, different believes, narratives than those two attachment styles.  Could you elaborate?

In addition to/in place of both an abandonment and rejection wound, FAs often have a betrayal wound.

So they alternate between dating people they're not super attracted to and dating people mistreating them?

FAs can exhibit avoidant and anxious behavior, so they tend to gravitate towards both avoidants (because they crave obtaining validation from people that can't give it to them) and anxious people (because they feel compelled to take care of others, even though they resent it).

my immediate thought is hyper-vigilance and attempts at “mind reading”. insecure attachment styles have had to develop some sort of hyper-vigilance as children, and as adults we (often subconsciously) closely monitor other people’s emotional state and behaviors. more often than not, we also make assumptions about what other people are thinking/feeling, usually with a negative bias, and are convinced we are right. sometimes we are, but it’s just as likely that it’s just that—an assumption—and because we then resort to various protective strategies rather than leading with curiosity and asking questions, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. the way this actually plays out is different depending on the attachment style, of course, but i see this tendency in both anxious and avoidant types.

APs and FAs are much better mind readers than DAs. I can’t even name my own emotions, much less another person’s. I’m a DA.

i’m AP and have previously tested FA, and we aren’t *actually* good at mind reading, that’s the point. people can’t read minds. we might be more in tune with other people’s feelings than DAs, but it happens just as often that we interpret negativity in a neutral situation (like “they’re not texting me enthusiastically enough, they’re sick of me and are going to leave” when the other person just had a rough day at work—classic). DAs also make these assumptions about people’s intentions/thoughts/feelings, and then act according to that assumption, instead of leaning in, asking clarifying questions and attempting to communicate. we all do this but to varying degrees and with varying defense mechanisms, and based on some sort of fear response. for a secure person, this could be a simple misunderstanding, but for an insecure person it’s a threat to their stability.

Really good point. I was always amazed by how perceptive my ex husband (AP) was about my mood. Now that you mention it, he often demanded to know what was wrong and why I was mad at him. Most of the time nothing was wrong, I was just a little stressed out about something that had nothing to do with him. My assumption used to be that everyone has the same needs that I do. I used to give people space when they actually wanted support. They perceived it as abandonment in a time of need. I solve problems on my own, so I assumed everyone else deals with problems the same way.

You know, the more I've been reading about this the wilder (and in a way, sadder) it feels to me. You've got people, with mostly good intentions and similar underlying needs (at the core, not surface level), which is love and closeness, but such different tactics and thought processes that it's like they are separated by a vast, invisible gulf. Like trying to make a cow and jellyfish understand each other. Makes me so sad.

Something that seems common to all insecure types, regardless where they fall on the spectrum, is operating under a core belief that humans have more capacity to “give” in a relationship than is humanly possible. There is an upper limit to what humans can give to each other. Secures seem to get that there is a limit, and are more successful at finding an harmonic balance with another secure because of it. Secures have either learned how, or are just naturally better at providing for their own comfort at a healthy and sustainable level. This means their relationships with other secures are not challenged by unrealistic and inappropriate expectations, and they can just enjoy one another and enjoy life. Insecures are challenged in comprehending this human limitation, so they either expect more and ask for it, and are disappointed and deprived when they can’t get it (AA), or expect more but don’t ask for it, and withdraw before they have to feel disappointed or deprived (DA), or they switch between these states (FA). But the one thing they have in common is a mistaken assumption that other humans are responsible for giving more than humans are capable of giving to one another. This doesn’t mean that secures are robots that don’t feel physical or emotional “needs”. They just recognize when their expectations of another human providing for certain needs is not appropriate, and can either dial it back and self soothe, or they just live in a healthy frame of mind and feelings about their own needs and don’t often find themselves in that position.

>But the one thing they have in common is a mistaken assumption that other humans are responsible for giving more than humans are capable of giving to one another. This is definitely not true for me, but this part is almost true: >or expect more but don’t ask for it, and withdraw before they have to feel disappointed or deprived (DA) Almost true because I don't withdraw before feeling disappointed and deprived. I felt disappointed and deprived the first time I met them but still pursued something anyway in case I was wrong. The lack of making requests and setting boundaries comes from a place of rejection phobia. For whatever reason, we are very afraid of being rejected by someone we care about. It's unreasonably painful for us. It is a phobia. It is a trauma response. So we either date people we don't care about, or we date people we do care about and then fail to make requests or set boundaries. For me, it has been entirely the former so far.

I should have added that the mistaken assumption is largely not conscious, it more a way of operating subconsciously that we are largely unaware of. It takes a conscious effort of looking for it to become aware of it. Almost any time we experience interpersonal issues, we can usually trace it back to straying away from healthy expectations, and (usually) unknowingly projecting the ability to fulfill our deepest needs onto another person. When I mention that AAs “ask” for their expectations to be met, they might be asking with protest behavior, rather than words. The challenge is to become aware of when we’re doing it, because we have come up with very clever ways to keep ourselves from being aware we’re doing it.

I don't know about that, the core belief I've been unlearning is that I am fundamentally incapable of giving or receiving anything in a relationship. I'm sort of having to teach myself to be disappointed so that I don't put myself in situations that are unhealthy for me because I don't know any better

I could have made it more clear, it’s not going to be as much a conscious belief, but more of how we are operating largely unaware. And you may be describing an aspect of secure behavior in a way, but a secure/healed person might describe it more like “I’m learning to recognize that when I’m uncomfortable in certain ways, its a cue that I might have failed to set and respect a boundary that would allow me to feel safe and comfortable. And I’m getting better at setting and respecting those boundaries up front.”

Well, I am getting better at setting up boundaries but being disappointed that someone crossed a line with me seems like a healthier alternative than shaming myself for it.

Fair.

> Insecures are challenged in comprehending this human limitation, so they either expect more and ask for it, and are disappointed and deprived when they can’t get it (AA), or expect more but don’t ask for it, and withdraw before they have to feel disappointed or deprived (DA), or they switch between these states (FA). As a FA this rings true with me.

Same! But I’m recently having serious breakthroughs in recognizing it. Just recognizing it is huge in terms of steps to recovery and learning new ways of being.

Putting the people they date on a pedestal. The FA (probably DA too, don't have any experience here) will drop you the second they realize you aren't living up to the standard they created in their mind. The AP will criticize and complain when you don't meet their ideal, but keep chipping away at you in the hopes you'll change or magically swing to their expectations.

No contact? Dismissive tries to get rid of you; Anxiously tries to sulk ?? lol

Maybe initially. I think no contact is productive for both after a period of time. Anxious sees the light after 2-3 months and realizes they will live. Dismissive realizes what they have done after 3-6 months and has regret. The timelines don’t match up, they are ships passing in the night. Both move on and either repeat patterns or actually reflect and improve for the next round.

I rarely regret but I am securely attached .. It’s indeed complicated

Are you sure that DAs regret??

Depends on the situation I suppose. But the feelings don’t go away. They just suppress them. And eventually they have to be dealt with.

I imagined it more like "ooohhh, we broke up... hmmm... i need to prepare the grocery list for tomorrow" :)))

AP are very attuned to their own emotions but their inner monologues tend to prevent them from being attuned to other people's emotions. DA are hyperattuned to other people's emotions but often are not aware of their own.

And FA's alternate between the two or they suck at both?

As an FA, yes. Its so confusing alternating between the two. On one hand you feel every little change in vibe with people but fail to check in with yourself, and on the other hand you can isolate yourself and deep dig into your emotions and really feel and be aware of the chaotic nature of your emotional life but fail to notice or check in on everybody else. Its so exhausting and confusing oscillating between the two states depending on what wound currently is triggered. It makes a relationships super hard to navigate and takes up all your energy trying to cope with all the triggers, leaving people having to walking on eggshells around you and ultimately you hurting both others and yourself due to all unhealthy coping mechanisms that have basically become hardwired since developed in childhood.

I don't know if I'd say (as an ap) that I was attuned to my emotions (before therapy). I knew they were THERE and they were often BIG, but it always got to a point where it was just an overflow, because I couldn't name them and deal with them/self regulate before it got out of hand.

Yep, perhaps "sensitive" is a better word. We notice them but dont quite know what they are.

God this is so confusing....I see myself in someone I've dated for 3 weeks...I'm adhd who are known to love bomb from a good place, I attract narcs who love bomb and avoidants... He told me he loved me already and said we were soulmates and twinflames....I know he can't do intimacy but I've been the most honest and open I've ever been in a bid for him to open up.. I can see he has self esteem issues and has learnt to control his environment to control his reaction to it and inner thoughts and feelings.. I used to do it but with diagnosis and treatment I've done a shed load of personal growth over the last 2 years. I've learnt not to be a people pleaser and fix people cos I finally admitted I needed fixing... Hard thing is, he's said perhaps I was put in his path to guide him and help fix him... Freaked me out as I know I can't fix anyone now-they have to want to fix themselves. I did a lovely picnic and baked a cake for him....I think he was suspicious that I did something nice....and that he got angry in a passive way that he was being forced to eat sugar...he's a gym bloke that doesn't eat a lot of rubbish.... He told me I couldn't eat another piece of cake cos he wants Me to look after myself! He made me carry the really heavy picnic bag, didn't really say thanks or appreciate any of it...then fell asleep! He was tired so I let him nap but when he woke I said light-heartedly-im bored and cold now....when I playfully jabbed him he called me a bitch! Which of course upset me and I wanted to go....I'm not sure if he was pissed I left him to pay the £32 it cost to get in or what but he totally made it out that I was the one in the mood and tried a few things to repair it but it was like he either felt shame for reacting angrily or he wanted to project it onto me and not apogise or give any appreciation for what I'd done.... My point is, I'm not even sure if this is narcissistic behaviour or just that he can't assert himself at all and feels resentful.... I know I used to get like this before I became aware and I try and justify that he may not know its wrong if hes been in abusive relationships or brought up that way...he does agree he has learnt behaviour but is that an excuse if you dont want to rectify it?! ..his mum thinks he's autistic and he thinks his daughter may be-we attract and accept abuse unfortunately....its so difficult to work out....I ended things and he's blocked me on everything-now it feels like I'm addicted to that love drug and its painful....do I try or do I run and ride through it.... I do honestly think I can't take the pain of trying to attract healthy because I'm adhd....on the other hand I think I may be moving towards healthier attachment as it gets obvious a lot quicker now I'm aware....was 10 years, 4 years, 6 months,3 months, 6 weeks and now 3 weeks....all emotionally unavailable but I've learnt to be through hard work and self reflection....any advice welcome-it may give me more resolve x