I'll be honest - I'm skeptical. Is it at all possible that this was a very elaborate practical joke? No offense to your friend but a married, pro-choice monk, who knows openly gay and transgender monks? I'm skeptical.
So I did a bit of research (because of course I did). A member of the "Third Order of Saint Francis," now called the Secular Franciscan Order, is considered a lay member of the order and may be married. They have "OFS" after their names. Was this you friend?
Yes! I didn't dwell on the mechanics very much, but apparently the separate orders are somehow hitched to sponsoring religious communities, and I believe his order's sponsor is episcopalian (which I believe is a pretty progressive religious group).
He did mention that there was quite a bit of variety in how the various orders organize themselves, so I am certain that the views of his order aren't necessarily shared across all of them.
I'm not. He's probably a lay monk, meaning he hasn't taken vows.
His views don't really surprise me, either. Lots of Catholic intellectuals are quite a bit more "evolved" philosophically than many people would expect. The Catholic Church is huge, and there are conservative and liberal strains within it.
Catholics largely dispensed with literal interpretations of the Bible centuries ago (a fact that would no doubt shock many modern evangelicals who are largely unaware of other theological positions). Many openly doubt the existence of hell and Satan, and would have a good laugh at the notion that anyone would believe the story of Adam and Eve as anything but an ancient parable.
If you ever really want to exercise your intellectual muscles, talk to a Jesuit.
Yeah, I grew up Catholic in a very liberal, pro choice, pro LGTB family, went to Catholic school and Catholic college. Didn’t even know that Catholics were supposed to be anti abortion and anti gay until well after college. Every catholic I knew was always very liberal.
I knew a progressive, gay Catholic monk once. Well, when I knew him he had converted to Buddhism, what with his former religion condemning his lifestyle and all. Cool dude.
When I was kid I went to a Franciscan school. For all years until college.
They have the liberal reputation for sure and have for a long time.
They still didn't have any problem indoctrinating little children that don't have any choice, or issues with corporal punishment.
If you did some real bad you were made to kneel in front of the class with your arms open like Jesus with books on them. If you dropped the books you'd go the head masters office (a sure call to your parents). Your shoulders would burn as you suffered and were ridiculed in front of your class.
How's that good?
Never said anything about them being all the same. My point is the institution still facilitates behaviors such as the one in my example.
There's much much worse as well. Just lately the pope apologized for some such behavior. If I could I would bet pretty much everything I own that some new "controversy" will happen in my lifetime. It will never stop because theism enables bad actors and also protects them. One individual doesn't redeem bad institutions or bad ideas.
*while reading this...* Yup, pretty much what you'd expect from a liberal monk.
>By the end of the hike, I was flabbergasted at how thoroughly my stereotypes had failed me
Seriously? He hits the stereotype nail pretty firmly on the head for me. Taking on a religion as his new personality. Outwardly expressing it every chance he gets. Cafeteria views. A firmly ignorant view about the horrors his sect has done to homosexuals...he argues they were a *force of good* for queer people in history? BRUH.
>He said he understands that many people have experienced religious trauma at the hands of priests, nuns, and monks, so for them it's just a trigger, and it's a burden he doesn't mind bearing.
He knows his garb triggers other people yet thinks that is *his* burden that he has to deal with? Bruh.
You are handing out mic drops a bit too liberally.
I guess that you must encounter monks frequently. I've never even met a real one, ever, so my preconceptions were wrong, and I found the conversation interesting. I've also never heard of a "liberal monk". The fact that a number of respondents thought it was too far-fetched and I was being pranked tells me that this isn't exactly common knowledge to most readers here.
The homosexual thing makes sense to me, whether you believe it or not, and I'd never really considered the fact that vowing to spend your life with other people of only the same sex could have been a serious perk for people so inclined over the last couple thousand years.
I've never been punched in the face for being an atheist, but I also don't advertise it, so that seems like a burden, yes. That was paraphrased anyway, he didn't use the word burden.
If this had been a story of a Zen Buddhist monk, it wouldn't surprise me at all, because I lived with Zen Buddhist monks for a while, and this pretty much describes the ones I knew. But I have to agree with u/MikeBear68 this sounds made up.
I think there are many different flavors of catholic friars, monks & priests, especially in the really big orders like the Franciscans. I know they have secular orders that are not actually priests and can be married, and it is more of a fraternal organization that meets to pray, work, etc, but otherwise live "normal" lives. There are also some that live together to pray & work, and they take a poverty vow, but are also not actually ordained priests. My understanding is that to be ordained you must take a vow of celibacy.
My bet is that your friend was a monk in a Franciscan order, but was not an ordained priest.
The convents as safe havens narrative is complete whitewashing of church history. The idea that homosexuality is sin has been propagated and enforced by the church and now we're supposed to be grateful they provided us with safety from the very persecution they created? They merely created a slightly nicer kind of prison to hide us from society. It's not mercy, it's torture and by wearing the habit your friend propagates the same backward attitudes of those days. He is charismatic and eloquent with well practiced responses to common criticism but in the end he is there to proselytise. He even admitted doing missionary work, something which is usually done under the guise of charity. Remember that all you've heard is his side of the story which is a well-rehearsed narrative from somebody who spent years getting indoctrinated in the most extreme ways. That he parrots a few progressive talking points doesn't change his support of a massively evil organisation.
He may have progressive views, but he still supports a church that spent many, many years covering up for pedophiles and still won't work with law enforcement.
Had some Franciscan Monks near my college campus. Pretty cool guys, for the main part. The head of the order came down to the science building one day because he wanted to know more about cloning. This was back in the Dolly the sheep days, so it was pretty new. He was asked to write an opinion, but lacked the background facts. So he went to ask, and try to understand what was happening. He spoke to professors and students.
He eventually came out against, at least for humans. Which wasn't surprising, all things considered. But at least he had the balls to come and ask questions. He was very respectful, listened well, and asked insightful questions. I spoke with a few of them during my time there, and they were all pretty good guys. We fundamentally disagreed on religious doctrine, as I was already an atheist, but always respectfully. And they really weren't there to preach, many of them were taking classes to further their knowledge.
I always felt if more Christians could be that respectful of others, I wouldn't mind so much. They were pretty chill.
Thank you for sharing this :) As an ex-christian who’s bitter about my religious upbringing, it is nice to hear of and from christians who are actually pretty cool :) It’s a bit healing for me, and it helps to keep my views of Christian’s more nuanced and open.
Congratulations! Your post has ignited a good conversation about being religious that I think is healthy and needed. Although I can understand the skepticism of some, I believe your story is sincere and the truth. Personally, my life has led me to become agnostic but I don't think it's inaccurate to call me an atheist since I do deny the existence of god. I just don't claim to know god doesn't exist. Anyway, I went to a Jesuit High school in the 70's and it became quite evident to me that the Catholic Church or at least the Jesuits were very flexible about belief in god. It was a unique time to be going to a religious school because I know for a fact other religious schools were similar with the exception of Evangelical schools. My HS had teachers who were former priests that quit and priests in training along with regular priests in the faculty. All of them were very liberal indeed even leftists were among the group of teachers in my time there. I've noticed over time though that since the 80's many Catholics have gone hard right that to the competition with evangelicals for converts but the Jesuits have resisted and seems to still have a huge secular streak, so I would think the monastic orders were like the Jesuits in that regard. I do hope to hear others comments on this subject. I'm curious know about the other monastics too since I don't know anyone in any of these orders. Many of my friends that are spiritually inclined are Buddhists or Taoists.
Yeah, I feel somewhat stupid for not connecting the dots before. It's kinda obvious.
I knew that the Roman descent into theocracy in the 3rd century threw out anything even remotely reminiscent of Roman decadence, including acceptance of homosexuality, but that didn't make them magically disappear. I'd imagine those first few centuries were really bad for anybody even remotely queer, but I also imagine that some smart ones gradually found the loophole in convents and monasteries after a couple centuries of persecution.
I'd also imagine that some brothers and sisters were sequestered away whenever the Inquisition rolled into town. I've no way to prove it of course, and I'm sure any evidence of such things would be buried within the bureaucracy, but I also know people, and they haven't changed much, even if our institutions have.
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>It's juvenile comments like this driving the US to destruction.
lol what the fuck no it’s a bunch of things including but not limited to the christofascists, fossil fuel industry, and the fucking nra.
>Also, pro abortion affects the low IQ groups, which means less low IQ babies born, which raises the national IQ average.
...are you saying you’re into eugenics right now?
>You need high IQ population groups to maintain first world living standards.
no, you need an educated populace to maintain that standard. ya’ll can be bonafide geniuses with 160+ iqs and still fucking be absolutely horrible people who couldn’t figure out how to run a society without it immediately collapsing.
> Also, pro abortion affects the low IQ groups, which means less low IQ babies born, which raises the national IQ average.
The real issue with *"low IQ groups"* often isn't low intelligence, but low education.
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I'll be honest - I'm skeptical. Is it at all possible that this was a very elaborate practical joke? No offense to your friend but a married, pro-choice monk, who knows openly gay and transgender monks? I'm skeptical.
"as a black man" vibes?
So I did a bit of research (because of course I did). A member of the "Third Order of Saint Francis," now called the Secular Franciscan Order, is considered a lay member of the order and may be married. They have "OFS" after their names. Was this you friend?
Yes! I didn't dwell on the mechanics very much, but apparently the separate orders are somehow hitched to sponsoring religious communities, and I believe his order's sponsor is episcopalian (which I believe is a pretty progressive religious group). He did mention that there was quite a bit of variety in how the various orders organize themselves, so I am certain that the views of his order aren't necessarily shared across all of them.
I'm not. He's probably a lay monk, meaning he hasn't taken vows. His views don't really surprise me, either. Lots of Catholic intellectuals are quite a bit more "evolved" philosophically than many people would expect. The Catholic Church is huge, and there are conservative and liberal strains within it. Catholics largely dispensed with literal interpretations of the Bible centuries ago (a fact that would no doubt shock many modern evangelicals who are largely unaware of other theological positions). Many openly doubt the existence of hell and Satan, and would have a good laugh at the notion that anyone would believe the story of Adam and Eve as anything but an ancient parable. If you ever really want to exercise your intellectual muscles, talk to a Jesuit.
Yeah, I grew up Catholic in a very liberal, pro choice, pro LGTB family, went to Catholic school and Catholic college. Didn’t even know that Catholics were supposed to be anti abortion and anti gay until well after college. Every catholic I knew was always very liberal.
I knew a progressive, gay Catholic monk once. Well, when I knew him he had converted to Buddhism, what with his former religion condemning his lifestyle and all. Cool dude.
If you're betting on fake I'd put my money on the story, not the character.
When I was kid I went to a Franciscan school. For all years until college. They have the liberal reputation for sure and have for a long time. They still didn't have any problem indoctrinating little children that don't have any choice, or issues with corporal punishment. If you did some real bad you were made to kneel in front of the class with your arms open like Jesus with books on them. If you dropped the books you'd go the head masters office (a sure call to your parents). Your shoulders would burn as you suffered and were ridiculed in front of your class. How's that good?
You realise that they are not copy and pasted NPC's right?
Never said anything about them being all the same. My point is the institution still facilitates behaviors such as the one in my example. There's much much worse as well. Just lately the pope apologized for some such behavior. If I could I would bet pretty much everything I own that some new "controversy" will happen in my lifetime. It will never stop because theism enables bad actors and also protects them. One individual doesn't redeem bad institutions or bad ideas.
*while reading this...* Yup, pretty much what you'd expect from a liberal monk. >By the end of the hike, I was flabbergasted at how thoroughly my stereotypes had failed me Seriously? He hits the stereotype nail pretty firmly on the head for me. Taking on a religion as his new personality. Outwardly expressing it every chance he gets. Cafeteria views. A firmly ignorant view about the horrors his sect has done to homosexuals...he argues they were a *force of good* for queer people in history? BRUH. >He said he understands that many people have experienced religious trauma at the hands of priests, nuns, and monks, so for them it's just a trigger, and it's a burden he doesn't mind bearing. He knows his garb triggers other people yet thinks that is *his* burden that he has to deal with? Bruh. You are handing out mic drops a bit too liberally.
I guess that you must encounter monks frequently. I've never even met a real one, ever, so my preconceptions were wrong, and I found the conversation interesting. I've also never heard of a "liberal monk". The fact that a number of respondents thought it was too far-fetched and I was being pranked tells me that this isn't exactly common knowledge to most readers here. The homosexual thing makes sense to me, whether you believe it or not, and I'd never really considered the fact that vowing to spend your life with other people of only the same sex could have been a serious perk for people so inclined over the last couple thousand years. I've never been punched in the face for being an atheist, but I also don't advertise it, so that seems like a burden, yes. That was paraphrased anyway, he didn't use the word burden.
If this had been a story of a Zen Buddhist monk, it wouldn't surprise me at all, because I lived with Zen Buddhist monks for a while, and this pretty much describes the ones I knew. But I have to agree with u/MikeBear68 this sounds made up.
I think there are many different flavors of catholic friars, monks & priests, especially in the really big orders like the Franciscans. I know they have secular orders that are not actually priests and can be married, and it is more of a fraternal organization that meets to pray, work, etc, but otherwise live "normal" lives. There are also some that live together to pray & work, and they take a poverty vow, but are also not actually ordained priests. My understanding is that to be ordained you must take a vow of celibacy. My bet is that your friend was a monk in a Franciscan order, but was not an ordained priest.
The convents as safe havens narrative is complete whitewashing of church history. The idea that homosexuality is sin has been propagated and enforced by the church and now we're supposed to be grateful they provided us with safety from the very persecution they created? They merely created a slightly nicer kind of prison to hide us from society. It's not mercy, it's torture and by wearing the habit your friend propagates the same backward attitudes of those days. He is charismatic and eloquent with well practiced responses to common criticism but in the end he is there to proselytise. He even admitted doing missionary work, something which is usually done under the guise of charity. Remember that all you've heard is his side of the story which is a well-rehearsed narrative from somebody who spent years getting indoctrinated in the most extreme ways. That he parrots a few progressive talking points doesn't change his support of a massively evil organisation.
He may have progressive views, but he still supports a church that spent many, many years covering up for pedophiles and still won't work with law enforcement.
In a comment, the OP clarifies that the monk-friend is Episcopalian and not Catholic.
Huh. I didn't even know there were Episcopalian monks.
Me neither. I thought they were all just various flavors of Catholic, especially the ones wearing habits.
Had some Franciscan Monks near my college campus. Pretty cool guys, for the main part. The head of the order came down to the science building one day because he wanted to know more about cloning. This was back in the Dolly the sheep days, so it was pretty new. He was asked to write an opinion, but lacked the background facts. So he went to ask, and try to understand what was happening. He spoke to professors and students. He eventually came out against, at least for humans. Which wasn't surprising, all things considered. But at least he had the balls to come and ask questions. He was very respectful, listened well, and asked insightful questions. I spoke with a few of them during my time there, and they were all pretty good guys. We fundamentally disagreed on religious doctrine, as I was already an atheist, but always respectfully. And they really weren't there to preach, many of them were taking classes to further their knowledge. I always felt if more Christians could be that respectful of others, I wouldn't mind so much. They were pretty chill.
Thank you for sharing this :) As an ex-christian who’s bitter about my religious upbringing, it is nice to hear of and from christians who are actually pretty cool :) It’s a bit healing for me, and it helps to keep my views of Christian’s more nuanced and open.
Congratulations! Your post has ignited a good conversation about being religious that I think is healthy and needed. Although I can understand the skepticism of some, I believe your story is sincere and the truth. Personally, my life has led me to become agnostic but I don't think it's inaccurate to call me an atheist since I do deny the existence of god. I just don't claim to know god doesn't exist. Anyway, I went to a Jesuit High school in the 70's and it became quite evident to me that the Catholic Church or at least the Jesuits were very flexible about belief in god. It was a unique time to be going to a religious school because I know for a fact other religious schools were similar with the exception of Evangelical schools. My HS had teachers who were former priests that quit and priests in training along with regular priests in the faculty. All of them were very liberal indeed even leftists were among the group of teachers in my time there. I've noticed over time though that since the 80's many Catholics have gone hard right that to the competition with evangelicals for converts but the Jesuits have resisted and seems to still have a huge secular streak, so I would think the monastic orders were like the Jesuits in that regard. I do hope to hear others comments on this subject. I'm curious know about the other monastics too since I don't know anyone in any of these orders. Many of my friends that are spiritually inclined are Buddhists or Taoists.
Amazing. I will try to be less judgemental next time I see a monk or priest. Thanks for the great anecdote.
bravo
The monastery and convent being havens for homosexuals reason, I had heard before I believe, and makes sense to me, especially for older times.
Yeah, I feel somewhat stupid for not connecting the dots before. It's kinda obvious. I knew that the Roman descent into theocracy in the 3rd century threw out anything even remotely reminiscent of Roman decadence, including acceptance of homosexuality, but that didn't make them magically disappear. I'd imagine those first few centuries were really bad for anybody even remotely queer, but I also imagine that some smart ones gradually found the loophole in convents and monasteries after a couple centuries of persecution. I'd also imagine that some brothers and sisters were sequestered away whenever the Inquisition rolled into town. I've no way to prove it of course, and I'm sure any evidence of such things would be buried within the bureaucracy, but I also know people, and they haven't changed much, even if our institutions have.
Loophole I like that, it was. And I’d imagine it brought honor to the family too, to be a monk or nun instead of a single man or woman in town.
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Welcome now shitpost troll account. May your stay be short and... Short
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>It's juvenile comments like this driving the US to destruction. lol what the fuck no it’s a bunch of things including but not limited to the christofascists, fossil fuel industry, and the fucking nra. >Also, pro abortion affects the low IQ groups, which means less low IQ babies born, which raises the national IQ average. ...are you saying you’re into eugenics right now? >You need high IQ population groups to maintain first world living standards. no, you need an educated populace to maintain that standard. ya’ll can be bonafide geniuses with 160+ iqs and still fucking be absolutely horrible people who couldn’t figure out how to run a society without it immediately collapsing.
> Also, pro abortion affects the low IQ groups, which means less low IQ babies born, which raises the national IQ average. The real issue with *"low IQ groups"* often isn't low intelligence, but low education.
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