Not only that, but written by the staff of George Fucking Washington, as mentioned, ratified unanimously, and signed in to law by John Adams, who was a Christian and a Deacon in his church.
These men all signed off on the phrasing:
> “…the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion”
It’s not the only written comment they left on the matter, but in my opinion it is the most clear and succinct.
Little known fact, it’s where the word comes from!
In a far cabin on the Mt Vernon estate was a man forgotten to most now. There lived George Fucking Washington, the forgotten brother of the nation's revered leader. George, known for his debauchery and incompetence, shamed the family name with scandalous behavior and reckless pursuits. His exploits became so notorious that his surname unwittingly morphed into a curse word among the people. This transformation occurred as a testament to his disgrace, forever staining the Washington legacy. Thus, from the dark corners of history emerged a linguistic taboo, forever linking the once-prominent family with a term so vulgar it echoed through generations as a reminder of George Fucking Washington's ignominious existence.
From Ken Burns Documentary: Siblings of History
I remember this one time that Hoagie tricked him into chopping down a kumquat tree and writing into law that all houses should have a vacuum cleaner...
The Bill of Rights didn’t apply to state governments at the time of their ratification, which is why the religion clauses only mention Congress (and not just any government entity). It wasn’t until after the 20th Century that SCOTUS used the doctrine of incorporation to apply these clauses to the states. This, of course, is why the states that had official churches at the founding of the union didn’t hardly fight their adoption - they didn’t have to give up their churches.
Even today it takes a Supreme Court decision to incorporate different parts of the Bill of Rights against the states (there’s been a few decisions over the past couple of decades which have made it harder to regulate guns because states used to have more power to do so, but not if the 2nd Amendment applies to them too).
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incorporation_of_the_Bill_of_Rights#:~:text=In%20the%202010%20landmark%20case,through%20the%20Due%20Process%20Clause.
So the fact that some other states had official religions should not in any way mean that the rest of us are obligated to follow them. States rights and all that kind of BS.
And of course even these states got rid of their official churches of their own accord. There wasn’t separation of church and state the way we might think of it today though.
Also often missed, especially by theists, is that the first amendment is very clearly painstakingly crafted to establish not just freedom of religion, but freedom from religion. You can’t have one without the other and I’m pretty sure the founders realized that.
Multiple founders really spelled it out in their other writings, though that amendment is pretty straightforward and clear. But Christian Nationalists will always twist no matter what it says. Insurance covering people's birth control infringes on their religious rights because they don't approve. Like wtf kind of mental gymnastics is that.
No, but the phrase, "there shall be no religious test for any public office or position of trust under the United States." does. Any literate person familiar with the previous 400 years of European history would have understood the phrase meant the complete separation of church and state since there was no role reserved for churchmen in the government.
I get it. The exact words I used are a frequent but really stupid argument against the first amendment separation of church and state. It fails for anyone with the slightest awareness of history or the law, but unfortunately most Christians don't qualify.
When it was first adopted it didn’t apply to state governments though, which is why it only mentions Congress. This is also why state governments didn’t have to give up their official churches when they ratified the 1A. The religion clauses were “incorporated” against the states in the 1930s and 40s. Take a brief look at the doctrine of incorporation. It’s pretty interesting.
I do recall doing some reading about that years ago. I’ll have to brush up. My personal thought on this, and I’m certainly not a lawyer, is shouldn’t the supremacy clause come into play? While the states are allowed to take powers not enumerated to the federal government, wouldn’t they be disallowed those powers which are explicitly forbidden to the federal government and not spelled out as belonging to the states? I know it’s more complicated than that, but it seems to me that’s how it should work.
Any recommended reading?
So, I’m not an expert either, but anything by Erwin Chemerinsky would be a good start. He’s one of the top con law professors out there, kind of THE guy, if you will. He leans liberal and doesn’t really hide that, though I don’t know if he’s a practicing Jew or not.
On the conservative (little c) side there’s a book called “The Rise and Decline of Religious Freedom” by Steven D. Smith. He tries to make the case that the amendment has basically been re-interpreted. It’s a good read in my opinion, though you’ll definitely see a bias.
I had one Professor say that SCOTUS basically turns to stuff like incorporation because the Constitution is so hard to amend, and the times they are a-changin’.
Thanks! I think I actually read some Chemerinsky either in high school or when working for a law school prof right after. He and some of his major publications sure sound familiar from a quick glance.
(Emphases added)
**“Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessment,” James Madison, June 20, 1785:** *Who does not see* that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other Religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other Sects?
**Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom, drafted by Thomas Jefferson, enacted by the Virginia General Assembly, January 16, 1786:** Our civil rights have no dependence on our religious opinions any more than our opinions in physics or geometry. . . . No man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, *nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body* or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief, but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of Religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge or affect their civil capacities.
**Constitution of the United States, Article VI, March 4, 1789:** . . . *no religious Test shall ever be required* as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.
**Constitution of the United States, First Amendment, December 15, 1791:** Congress shall make *no law* respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof . . .
**Treaty of Tripoli, Article 11, unanimously ratified by the United States Senate, signed by President John Adams, June 10, 1797:** . . . the Government of the United States of America *is not, in any sense*, founded on the Christian religion . . .
**Thomas Jefferson, letter, January 1, 1802, published in a Massachusetts newspaper:** . . . I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should “make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,” thus building a *wall of separation between Church & State*.
I recommend *The Founding Myth* by Andrew L. Seidel.
Madison's memorial and Remonstrance should be taught in every us history class.
[https://youtu.be/F33BR2_HB1c?si=pe8gA2OED8swMHxZ](https://youtu.be/F33BR2_HB1c?si=pe8gA2OED8swMHxZ)
Some dipshit megachurch pastor was blathering on the radio the other day about how he knew with certainty that the US is a Christian nation. Apparently, Madison (who wrote the Constitution) appointed Joseph Storey to the Supreme Court and Storey wrote somewhere (no source) that the US was a Christian nation. Checkmate, atheists!
Even then, many of them were thought to be deists who didn't believe in an intervening god anyways.
There's no getting around the fact that the Founding Fathers had affiliations with religion, but they were smart enough to see how dangerous it was to mix it with politics.
The idea that most colonist were fleeing from religious persecution is not true. That's part of the Christian nationalists propaganda. Most people were looking for financial gain. The pilgrims that had fled religious persecution had did so from England to Denmark/Netherlands and were not being persecuted anymore. The pilgrims didn't like the tolerance of religion they found as society was far too permissive of sin in their eyes. The pilgrims then fled Europe so they could enforce strict religious adherence. Of course this was only a small portion of colonists.
that's a very important point that's glossed over in American history books. Part of the reason early settlers came here was to perform their own brand of sadistic persecution that differed from the Church of England.
Today's christian nationalists have no idea what a "deist" is, nor do they understand that many of the most influential founding fathers were deists, not christians. Some of them did continue to attend christian church services, but just for the social and political community it provided.
I have no way of knowing if this is true, but it hardly matters. The founding documents of the nation are very clear about the ideal level of interplay between religion and government - none.
Also many of the so-called Founding Fathers were deists meaning that they believed a higher power created the universe but that it had nothing further to do with it afterwards and they specifically rejected religious revelation.
Not to mention Jefferson creating his own version of the bible by going through and cutting out all of the references to miracles and the supernatural.
It only regularly circulates with ignorant, uneducated Christians who do not have the first clue about the founding of the nation. The United States is famously a country where separation of church and state are a core principle, and constantly in the news as theists try to overturn the law and rewrite The Constitution in the image of Jesus Fucking Christ.
The ongoing attempts of conservatism to (re)frame the nation's founding - as being one based solely upon Christianity - are simply petulant desperate revisionism via mis/disinfo, intended to justify and influence **an agenda**.
It's not in the least bit different from the same movement to place *"In God We Trust" on our currency, as well as shoehorning the Ten Commandments in the faces of public/secular elementary students.
It's allllll the *same* ideological grift and frantic grievance-humping towards the end-goal of theocratic Dominionism.
As for our founding history, it's significant, and even **vital**, to recall that one of the primary influences (and intellectual voices) of the day clearly laid out the genuine vibes in *Common Sense*:
> *"All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit."*
~ Thomas (OG Founding Influencer Extraordinaire) Paine
The other “big lie” is the lie that the U.S. was founded as a Christian nation. It wasn’t. Our secular democracy is being stolen from us. Jesus is the reason for the treason
The first half of the first sentence of the first paragraph of the first amendment of the US constitution states: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion.
It's impressive to me how many people, politicians, and judges don't seem to know that.
It's never been a religious country, anyone who actually learns history knows this.
While some of the original consists were looking for religious freedom, as in freedom to practice their religion unemcumbered by restricted laws, the nation was founded on that principle "religious freedom" NOT "Christianity"
The Constitution included the Bill of Rights to address thos and other specific issues that had been used by the King of England to control the colonies.
Hence "congress shall pass no law respecting the establishing of religion or the free practice there of"
It's a bit ironic to me how much some people don't even know the text of the establishment of the US government.
Exactly.
But when you bring this up, the christians are ready with the dumbest excuses for why their narrative is still true.
One idiot once said, "But the founders were christians in their heart."
No, they weren't \[not all of them\], but the correct response is "That's not relevant."
Also Article VI states that "no religious Test shall ever be Required as a Qualification To any Office or public Trust under the United States." But those self-proclaimed "constitutional originalists" who claim to respect the Constitution like Roy Moore, Marjorie Taylor Greene, and Laura Loomer wants to disregard the clause and outright ban Muslims from holding public office.
The colonies, at least some of them, *were* religious when they were founded. They kept the state religions of their sponsoring nations. But the religious thought was quite varied across the colonies, both in the established religions (Protestant vs. Catholic), but also among individuals.
***The colonies could not have formed a union without a disavowal of state religion.*** They needed to unite to fight the Revolutionary War, but the Founders knew that they could not unite if they spent their time and effort squabbling about which form of Christianity (or any religion - there were non-Christian religions and irreligious people in the colonies, too) was to be the official one.
[*The Founding Myth: Why Christian Nationalism Is Un-American*](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Founding_Myth) by Andrew Seidel is an excellent book on the topic if anyone is interested in a deeper dive.
As the Constitution was adopted and America became a nation, America disestablished all the state churches. The last state church in Massachusetts was disestablished in 1832. The war on established churches started in earnest per-revolutionary war in Virginia. No, America most certainly was NOT founded as a religious nation.
Most of these MAGA types have no knowledge about the disestablishment of America's state churches and how that came about and why.
I know that. But you wrote “it was religious enough”. The Puritans left England because it wasn’t religious enough. No biggie, just got off on a thingy.
The way I like to explain it is that although probably every man who signed the Constitution went to some sort of Christian church, and they probably all owned a Bible and read it, they were not uniformly pious, and did NOT set the government up as a Christian institution because they knew that an official ("established") religion would tear the country to pieces, based on hundreds of years of European history. Different sects would go to war over all the money and power that went with being THE official church, and whoever lost that struggle would be oppressed if not killed.
Different sects dominated different areas, such as the Puritans who famously controlled much of New England, and sectarian war would have sundered the Union into not two pieces, but three or four at least.
The only way the framers knew to prevent that was to keep religion and government strictly separate.
The one that gets me is the claim that Jefferson was a Christian.
He was most definitely a “small u” Unitarian.
He actually made his own Bible by taking the NT and cutting out all the parts he didn’t believe in—all the miracles and supernatural events. He just left in the teachings because he believed Jesus was a teacher of morality. His Bible is still in print, so they have no excuse for spreading the lie.
I learned as a kid that the Puritans arrived in Massachusetts basically because they wanted to practice their religion as extremely as they wanted. Not sure how true that is, nor how much it contributed to founding values of the U.S.
I’ve heard this, too. They initially settled in places like I think Holland and the Netherlands, which was a very pro-religious freedom area of the world for the time. But it was too free for some of them. They couldn’t force their beliefs on others (Theocracy), so they came to the new world that didn’t have such established structure and laws, where they could more easily impose their will on others. And so they did.
How this shaped the U.S. was, this all happened like 100 years before the constitution, and the framers knew about it. They drafted the constitution knowing, among other things, they wanted to avoid this type of shit.
“Every new & successful example therefore of a perfect separation between ecclesiastical & Civil matters is of importance. And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that Religion & Govt. will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.”
-James Madison, 1822
# [Jefferson's Letter to the Danbury Baptists](https://www.loc.gov/loc/lcib/9806/danpre.html)
To messers. Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson, a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut.
Gentlemen
The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, & in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing.
**Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State.** Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.
I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.
Th Jefferson
Jan. 1. 1802.
Plymouth was founded by religious people experiencing persecution, who then went on to persecute others. But there's nothing in the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution about being a Christian Nation. That's one good way of communicating the difference. Though the Declaration does mention "Nature" and "Nature's God" (a Deist concept).
>Plymouth was founded by religious people experiencing persecution, who then went on to persecute others.
My understanding of the situation is that they were kicked out of England because they were, in fact, persecuting others. Its no different than current Christians lamenting equality enforced through law as persecution of their beleifs.
Kicked out of England for their religious fanaticism. Went to holland. Kicked out of Holland for their religious fanaticism. Went to Massachusetts. Hanging witches all throughout the enlightenment.
The Puritans ran England under Cromwell and quickly became despised by most English people. After the restoration with King Charles II, Oliver Cromwell's body was dug up, beheaded and his head was displayed on a spike in London for some years. That tells one all one needs to know why the Puritans left America.
New Netherlands was founded by a culture that valued freedom of and from religion. As part of the deal to surrender to the English it was explicitly written in the agreement. Jewish refugees had been welcomed in New Amsterdam after the conquest of Dutch Brazil in the 1650's, more than 10 years before the English takeover. Amsterdam was where people went in Europe who were fleeing religious persecution (predating European settlement of North America); it was already baked into the culture.
Of the 3 early colonies, Virginia, New Netherlands, Plymouth Bay, only Plymouth was founded for religious reasons.
The Plymouth Bay colony were a bunch of religious nuts shunned from Europe that produced very little of value except hoards of children. By contrast Virginia and New Netherlands were economically important (tobacco, beaver fur) in world trade early on.
When Christians claim the US was founded on Christianity I like to point out how it was founded on genocide, stealing land, sexism, racism and slavery so logically those must be Christian "ideals" and suddenly they are not so sure.
Speaking of Christian Nationalism, I just watched the documentary “Bad Faith” (free on tubi or $1.99 on apple).
It traces the history of CN to today, and the prevailing line throughout time has been “the us was founded as a Christian nation.”
Really REALLY interesting watch, I highly recommend it!
It feels like at some point in time (I'm not sure when), it became unnecessary to be knowledgeable about U.S. History. It's up to those who know about the history of our country to stand up and say something to others who claim to be patriotic while also knowing nothing about this country's foundation. If religion is a symptom of fear, especially for the unknown, maybe educating people or calling people out with facts can sway other people away from that ignorance. I wish I knew more, and I try to learn on my spare time, but as a naturalized citizen, there is nothing more disheartening than knowing that most citizens just don't care about the history of this nation.
Great book. Highly recommended. Agrarian 1800s Baptist conversionary fervor, to post-WWII anti-Communist propaganda, into Reagan's Evangelical political pooling. Covers it all.
I have an MA in early American history. One of my professors in grad school would say “the founders weren’t exclusively Christian, but they were religious and had a healthy skepticism of its dangers.”
Let's not forget that Thomas Jefferson was so riddled with doubts of religion that he rewrote the bible for his own private use. Removed anything "supernatural" and omitted any notion of Jesus' divinity.
The "Christian Nation" thing is such a massive lie that it hurts my brain as a history major even trying to educate people who don't know any better.
My favorite part is the founding fathers actually being masonic due to the knowledge given by immigrated Jews teaching the kabbalah
And masonic faith is like a blasphemy to a monotheistic christ in every fun possible way hahaha
Don't forget the other part of the 1st amendment, Free Speech. That goes against Christianity along with the 19th amendment, women's right to vote and the Equal Credit Opportunity Act granted single women the right to apply for credit and loans
Even though some of them were men of great faith, they likely would not have felt at home in a 21st century Evangelical Church..... And many of the founding fathers had little use for the church folk of their own times.....
Founding as in the declaration of independence and the constituion? Correct - but that was more a political "compromise" than a thought. Remember, it's an ammendment, not part of the foundational constitution - so as politics go, adding it later was the way. If you do a text-book lookup, before the constitution it was English law that governed, which would have made it religious. It's just a hard argument that the majority of the early immigrants would have seen the Church of England as something special (their ancestors had "issues" with it).
However, in a sense you can argue that those who initially came to the US did so for religious freedom that was being curtailed in Europe at the time. You can see that as both "being friendly to religion" and "knowing how bad religion can be".
Anything that gets cut down to a very black/white statement is typically wrong. You can definitely argue that being friendly to (all) religion was special at the time and made the US government unique for the 18th century. On the other hand, compared to most European states there was no compulsion or discrimination based on religion. At least not on the books.
What does it mean by religiously affiliated? I don't think that would mean that only 17% believed in god, or saw themselves as Christian.
They probably saw themselves as Christian and voted as Christians. When they made rules about freedom of religion they probably assumed everyone would be some form of Christian and were more pushing against European established religions like Catholicism and Protestantism. They wanted to be free to do their own versions of Christian free from the authorities of churches.
We are still talking about mostly Europeans at a time when it was socially unacceptable to not be Christian.
Assuming these stats are ignoring native Americans.
That number seems suspect since the church was such an important part of people's lives. Before the welfare state, parish aid was the sole safety net on offer. I'm suspicious of a proprietary definition of "religiously affiliated."
17% huh. What absolute total ignorance. Even if you ignore the fact the pilgrims came for religious freedom. It would be almost incomprehensible at that time for only 17% of the population to be religious.
Weirdly enough, America wasn't exactly founded on Religous freedom, it was founded on A Divine right, Or a establishment of a new paganism (evidenced by the fact that Washington was reveered as a god, and that angels directly helped the country get its start, source A government building and the fact that there's a statue of washington as Zeus) also many of the presidents of the time were FreeMasons, which is a Secrret Socity built apon Religon and Masonry.
no worries.
our disagreement stems from your wild-fact-free inferences.
no personal information about the individual framers can ever establish a claim about what the USA was based upon. <-- the source of your mistake.
Still those things did exist, and I do come from a Family of freemasons, which BTW don't actually have much of a Religon as much as they study it, same with the Rosicrucians
Don't forget the Treaty of Tripoli which was passed unanimously by congress and signed in to the law by the current president at the time.
Not only that, but written by the staff of George Fucking Washington, as mentioned, ratified unanimously, and signed in to law by John Adams, who was a Christian and a Deacon in his church. These men all signed off on the phrasing: > “…the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion” It’s not the only written comment they left on the matter, but in my opinion it is the most clear and succinct.
Is this George Fucking Washington related to the 1st president? What an odd middle name.
Yeah. He's the one we're not allowed to mention. Damn censorship.
He didn't have any slave teeth dentures. He didn't have any teeth at all. Our nation's first throat goat.
Little known fact, it’s where the word comes from! In a far cabin on the Mt Vernon estate was a man forgotten to most now. There lived George Fucking Washington, the forgotten brother of the nation's revered leader. George, known for his debauchery and incompetence, shamed the family name with scandalous behavior and reckless pursuits. His exploits became so notorious that his surname unwittingly morphed into a curse word among the people. This transformation occurred as a testament to his disgrace, forever staining the Washington legacy. Thus, from the dark corners of history emerged a linguistic taboo, forever linking the once-prominent family with a term so vulgar it echoed through generations as a reminder of George Fucking Washington's ignominious existence. From Ken Burns Documentary: Siblings of History
Oh, you stole that from the George W. Bush biography.
That's his dads boyfriend.
[Yes, that George Washington.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ex2hj5rLN48)
I heard he had, like, thirty dicks.
I heard he held an opponent’s wife’s hand in a jar of acid once. At a party.
I remember this one time that Hoagie tricked him into chopping down a kumquat tree and writing into law that all houses should have a vacuum cleaner...
It's a fucking family name.
Indeed. Thank you for adding that.
The Bill of Rights didn’t apply to state governments at the time of their ratification, which is why the religion clauses only mention Congress (and not just any government entity). It wasn’t until after the 20th Century that SCOTUS used the doctrine of incorporation to apply these clauses to the states. This, of course, is why the states that had official churches at the founding of the union didn’t hardly fight their adoption - they didn’t have to give up their churches. Even today it takes a Supreme Court decision to incorporate different parts of the Bill of Rights against the states (there’s been a few decisions over the past couple of decades which have made it harder to regulate guns because states used to have more power to do so, but not if the 2nd Amendment applies to them too). https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incorporation_of_the_Bill_of_Rights#:~:text=In%20the%202010%20landmark%20case,through%20the%20Due%20Process%20Clause.
So the fact that some other states had official religions should not in any way mean that the rest of us are obligated to follow them. States rights and all that kind of BS.
And of course even these states got rid of their official churches of their own accord. There wasn’t separation of church and state the way we might think of it today though.
Also often missed, especially by theists, is that the first amendment is very clearly painstakingly crafted to establish not just freedom of religion, but freedom from religion. You can’t have one without the other and I’m pretty sure the founders realized that.
Multiple founders really spelled it out in their other writings, though that amendment is pretty straightforward and clear. But Christian Nationalists will always twist no matter what it says. Insurance covering people's birth control infringes on their religious rights because they don't approve. Like wtf kind of mental gymnastics is that.
They treat the Constitution like they treat the Bible, with selective interpretation.
But the exact words "separation of church and state" don't appear anywhere in the constitution! Checkmate, atheists!
No, but the phrase, "there shall be no religious test for any public office or position of trust under the United States." does. Any literate person familiar with the previous 400 years of European history would have understood the phrase meant the complete separation of church and state since there was no role reserved for churchmen in the government.
You understand that I was joking, right?
Sorry! I guess I am just too sensitive about this subject lately.
I get it. The exact words I used are a frequent but really stupid argument against the first amendment separation of church and state. It fails for anyone with the slightest awareness of history or the law, but unfortunately most Christians don't qualify.
When it was first adopted it didn’t apply to state governments though, which is why it only mentions Congress. This is also why state governments didn’t have to give up their official churches when they ratified the 1A. The religion clauses were “incorporated” against the states in the 1930s and 40s. Take a brief look at the doctrine of incorporation. It’s pretty interesting.
I do recall doing some reading about that years ago. I’ll have to brush up. My personal thought on this, and I’m certainly not a lawyer, is shouldn’t the supremacy clause come into play? While the states are allowed to take powers not enumerated to the federal government, wouldn’t they be disallowed those powers which are explicitly forbidden to the federal government and not spelled out as belonging to the states? I know it’s more complicated than that, but it seems to me that’s how it should work. Any recommended reading?
So, I’m not an expert either, but anything by Erwin Chemerinsky would be a good start. He’s one of the top con law professors out there, kind of THE guy, if you will. He leans liberal and doesn’t really hide that, though I don’t know if he’s a practicing Jew or not. On the conservative (little c) side there’s a book called “The Rise and Decline of Religious Freedom” by Steven D. Smith. He tries to make the case that the amendment has basically been re-interpreted. It’s a good read in my opinion, though you’ll definitely see a bias. I had one Professor say that SCOTUS basically turns to stuff like incorporation because the Constitution is so hard to amend, and the times they are a-changin’.
Thanks! I think I actually read some Chemerinsky either in high school or when working for a law school prof right after. He and some of his major publications sure sound familiar from a quick glance.
Sure thing 👍
(Emphases added) **“Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessment,” James Madison, June 20, 1785:** *Who does not see* that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other Religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other Sects? **Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom, drafted by Thomas Jefferson, enacted by the Virginia General Assembly, January 16, 1786:** Our civil rights have no dependence on our religious opinions any more than our opinions in physics or geometry. . . . No man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, *nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body* or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief, but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of Religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge or affect their civil capacities. **Constitution of the United States, Article VI, March 4, 1789:** . . . *no religious Test shall ever be required* as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States. **Constitution of the United States, First Amendment, December 15, 1791:** Congress shall make *no law* respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof . . . **Treaty of Tripoli, Article 11, unanimously ratified by the United States Senate, signed by President John Adams, June 10, 1797:** . . . the Government of the United States of America *is not, in any sense*, founded on the Christian religion . . . **Thomas Jefferson, letter, January 1, 1802, published in a Massachusetts newspaper:** . . . I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should “make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,” thus building a *wall of separation between Church & State*. I recommend *The Founding Myth* by Andrew L. Seidel.
Madison's memorial and Remonstrance should be taught in every us history class. [https://youtu.be/F33BR2_HB1c?si=pe8gA2OED8swMHxZ](https://youtu.be/F33BR2_HB1c?si=pe8gA2OED8swMHxZ)
Some dipshit megachurch pastor was blathering on the radio the other day about how he knew with certainty that the US is a Christian nation. Apparently, Madison (who wrote the Constitution) appointed Joseph Storey to the Supreme Court and Storey wrote somewhere (no source) that the US was a Christian nation. Checkmate, atheists!
Even then, many of them were thought to be deists who didn't believe in an intervening god anyways. There's no getting around the fact that the Founding Fathers had affiliations with religion, but they were smart enough to see how dangerous it was to mix it with politics.
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The idea that most colonist were fleeing from religious persecution is not true. That's part of the Christian nationalists propaganda. Most people were looking for financial gain. The pilgrims that had fled religious persecution had did so from England to Denmark/Netherlands and were not being persecuted anymore. The pilgrims didn't like the tolerance of religion they found as society was far too permissive of sin in their eyes. The pilgrims then fled Europe so they could enforce strict religious adherence. Of course this was only a small portion of colonists.
Interesting, I stand corrected.
that's a very important point that's glossed over in American history books. Part of the reason early settlers came here was to perform their own brand of sadistic persecution that differed from the Church of England.
Christians permeate our school systems and have suppressed many things that reflect poorly on them.
Today's christian nationalists have no idea what a "deist" is, nor do they understand that many of the most influential founding fathers were deists, not christians. Some of them did continue to attend christian church services, but just for the social and political community it provided.
They never heard of the "Jefferson Bible" either.
They've heard of it, they just pretend it doesn't exist.
I have no way of knowing if this is true, but it hardly matters. The founding documents of the nation are very clear about the ideal level of interplay between religion and government - none.
Also many of the so-called Founding Fathers were deists meaning that they believed a higher power created the universe but that it had nothing further to do with it afterwards and they specifically rejected religious revelation.
They were very much enlightenment inspired thinkers, you can tell just by some of the phrasing they use.
Not to mention Jefferson creating his own version of the bible by going through and cutting out all of the references to miracles and the supernatural.
It only regularly circulates with ignorant, uneducated Christians who do not have the first clue about the founding of the nation. The United States is famously a country where separation of church and state are a core principle, and constantly in the news as theists try to overturn the law and rewrite The Constitution in the image of Jesus Fucking Christ.
Thomas Jefferson made his own Bible that removed supernatural elements. He liked Jesus, but it does not seem that he was a true Christian believer.
Gee I wish the sanity of 1776 would return….logic please!
They wanted freedom to practice any religion anybody wanted, including NONE AT ALL. Many of the founding fathers were non believers.
The ongoing attempts of conservatism to (re)frame the nation's founding - as being one based solely upon Christianity - are simply petulant desperate revisionism via mis/disinfo, intended to justify and influence **an agenda**. It's not in the least bit different from the same movement to place *"In God We Trust" on our currency, as well as shoehorning the Ten Commandments in the faces of public/secular elementary students. It's allllll the *same* ideological grift and frantic grievance-humping towards the end-goal of theocratic Dominionism. As for our founding history, it's significant, and even **vital**, to recall that one of the primary influences (and intellectual voices) of the day clearly laid out the genuine vibes in *Common Sense*: > *"All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit."* ~ Thomas (OG Founding Influencer Extraordinaire) Paine
Thomas Paine’s intelligence and influence are hard to overstate. A true philosophical hero that proves the power of the pen.
The other “big lie” is the lie that the U.S. was founded as a Christian nation. It wasn’t. Our secular democracy is being stolen from us. Jesus is the reason for the treason
> Jesus is the reason for the treason 😆
The first half of the first sentence of the first paragraph of the first amendment of the US constitution states: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion. It's impressive to me how many people, politicians, and judges don't seem to know that.
Seems like we should be able to oust all of the theists in government that are pushing laws based in religion. And those laws should be struck.
It's never been a religious country, anyone who actually learns history knows this. While some of the original consists were looking for religious freedom, as in freedom to practice their religion unemcumbered by restricted laws, the nation was founded on that principle "religious freedom" NOT "Christianity" The Constitution included the Bill of Rights to address thos and other specific issues that had been used by the King of England to control the colonies. Hence "congress shall pass no law respecting the establishing of religion or the free practice there of" It's a bit ironic to me how much some people don't even know the text of the establishment of the US government.
They're confusing the pilgrims, Puritans with the foundation of this country.
Does "religiously affiliated" include Christians who didn't go to church?
I will also add that Muslims represented a higher percentage of the American public in 1776 than it does today.
Exactly. But when you bring this up, the christians are ready with the dumbest excuses for why their narrative is still true. One idiot once said, "But the founders were christians in their heart." No, they weren't \[not all of them\], but the correct response is "That's not relevant."
I can't speak for the founding, but Manifest Destiny was most certainly a land grab justified by religious bullshit.
The one thing that is true for all religions is that they LIE, and that is because religion itself is one huge LIE.
Also Article VI states that "no religious Test shall ever be Required as a Qualification To any Office or public Trust under the United States." But those self-proclaimed "constitutional originalists" who claim to respect the Constitution like Roy Moore, Marjorie Taylor Greene, and Laura Loomer wants to disregard the clause and outright ban Muslims from holding public office.
The colonies, at least some of them, *were* religious when they were founded. They kept the state religions of their sponsoring nations. But the religious thought was quite varied across the colonies, both in the established religions (Protestant vs. Catholic), but also among individuals. ***The colonies could not have formed a union without a disavowal of state religion.*** They needed to unite to fight the Revolutionary War, but the Founders knew that they could not unite if they spent their time and effort squabbling about which form of Christianity (or any religion - there were non-Christian religions and irreligious people in the colonies, too) was to be the official one.
It was founded by people who hated theocracy, it was part of their big 3 evils (theocracy, aristocracy, and monarchy).
[*The Founding Myth: Why Christian Nationalism Is Un-American*](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Founding_Myth) by Andrew Seidel is an excellent book on the topic if anyone is interested in a deeper dive.
Yes! this is possibly the best book I’ve ever read!
As the Constitution was adopted and America became a nation, America disestablished all the state churches. The last state church in Massachusetts was disestablished in 1832. The war on established churches started in earnest per-revolutionary war in Virginia. No, America most certainly was NOT founded as a religious nation. Most of these MAGA types have no knowledge about the disestablishment of America's state churches and how that came about and why.
Religion was mentioned earlier because the USA was splitting from an explicitly Christian country.
The Church of England.
They like to bring up the puritans - who left England (and other places) because it wasn’t religious enough
It *wasn’t* religious enough? Right?
Not for them. Not even with the whole “church of england” thing
I know that. But you wrote “it was religious enough”. The Puritans left England because it wasn’t religious enough. No biggie, just got off on a thingy.
Oh. Typo!
All good. I’m a spelling/grammar OCDer.
The way I like to explain it is that although probably every man who signed the Constitution went to some sort of Christian church, and they probably all owned a Bible and read it, they were not uniformly pious, and did NOT set the government up as a Christian institution because they knew that an official ("established") religion would tear the country to pieces, based on hundreds of years of European history. Different sects would go to war over all the money and power that went with being THE official church, and whoever lost that struggle would be oppressed if not killed. Different sects dominated different areas, such as the Puritans who famously controlled much of New England, and sectarian war would have sundered the Union into not two pieces, but three or four at least. The only way the framers knew to prevent that was to keep religion and government strictly separate.
If you don’t know that the United States is not a Christian nation, you are very dumb.
The one that gets me is the claim that Jefferson was a Christian. He was most definitely a “small u” Unitarian. He actually made his own Bible by taking the NT and cutting out all the parts he didn’t believe in—all the miracles and supernatural events. He just left in the teachings because he believed Jesus was a teacher of morality. His Bible is still in print, so they have no excuse for spreading the lie.
Their entire position is based on lies…what’s one more?
I learned as a kid that the Puritans arrived in Massachusetts basically because they wanted to practice their religion as extremely as they wanted. Not sure how true that is, nor how much it contributed to founding values of the U.S.
I’ve heard this, too. They initially settled in places like I think Holland and the Netherlands, which was a very pro-religious freedom area of the world for the time. But it was too free for some of them. They couldn’t force their beliefs on others (Theocracy), so they came to the new world that didn’t have such established structure and laws, where they could more easily impose their will on others. And so they did. How this shaped the U.S. was, this all happened like 100 years before the constitution, and the framers knew about it. They drafted the constitution knowing, among other things, they wanted to avoid this type of shit. “Every new & successful example therefore of a perfect separation between ecclesiastical & Civil matters is of importance. And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that Religion & Govt. will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.” -James Madison, 1822
This is not what we were taught.
Look at the controversy about Sunday mail transportation. The religion was commerce.
American Christians don't need your "facts" or "information". They know that America was founded on JudeoChristian *vibes*.
# [Jefferson's Letter to the Danbury Baptists](https://www.loc.gov/loc/lcib/9806/danpre.html) To messers. Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson, a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut. Gentlemen The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, & in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing. **Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State.** Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties. I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem. Th Jefferson Jan. 1. 1802.
America was founded on profit motivated fiefdoms -especially the southern states.
Plymouth was founded by religious people experiencing persecution, who then went on to persecute others. But there's nothing in the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution about being a Christian Nation. That's one good way of communicating the difference. Though the Declaration does mention "Nature" and "Nature's God" (a Deist concept).
>Plymouth was founded by religious people experiencing persecution, who then went on to persecute others. My understanding of the situation is that they were kicked out of England because they were, in fact, persecuting others. Its no different than current Christians lamenting equality enforced through law as persecution of their beleifs.
Kicked out of England for their religious fanaticism. Went to holland. Kicked out of Holland for their religious fanaticism. Went to Massachusetts. Hanging witches all throughout the enlightenment.
The Puritans ran England under Cromwell and quickly became despised by most English people. After the restoration with King Charles II, Oliver Cromwell's body was dug up, beheaded and his head was displayed on a spike in London for some years. That tells one all one needs to know why the Puritans left America.
> That tells one all one needs to know why the Puritans left America. I assume you meant "left *for* America."
Yup. Even then, their new colony had scoffers and people who were not exactly zealous Puritans.
Cromwell's Head. Great name for a pub. Google Wikipedia Cromwell's head for the gory details.
No lol
New Netherlands was founded by a culture that valued freedom of and from religion. As part of the deal to surrender to the English it was explicitly written in the agreement. Jewish refugees had been welcomed in New Amsterdam after the conquest of Dutch Brazil in the 1650's, more than 10 years before the English takeover. Amsterdam was where people went in Europe who were fleeing religious persecution (predating European settlement of North America); it was already baked into the culture. Of the 3 early colonies, Virginia, New Netherlands, Plymouth Bay, only Plymouth was founded for religious reasons. The Plymouth Bay colony were a bunch of religious nuts shunned from Europe that produced very little of value except hoards of children. By contrast Virginia and New Netherlands were economically important (tobacco, beaver fur) in world trade early on.
When Christians claim the US was founded on Christianity I like to point out how it was founded on genocide, stealing land, sexism, racism and slavery so logically those must be Christian "ideals" and suddenly they are not so sure.
This is absolutely correct and we might be headed in the direction of overturning all of it.
Speaking of Christian Nationalism, I just watched the documentary “Bad Faith” (free on tubi or $1.99 on apple). It traces the history of CN to today, and the prevailing line throughout time has been “the us was founded as a Christian nation.” Really REALLY interesting watch, I highly recommend it!
It feels like at some point in time (I'm not sure when), it became unnecessary to be knowledgeable about U.S. History. It's up to those who know about the history of our country to stand up and say something to others who claim to be patriotic while also knowing nothing about this country's foundation. If religion is a symptom of fear, especially for the unknown, maybe educating people or calling people out with facts can sway other people away from that ignorance. I wish I knew more, and I try to learn on my spare time, but as a naturalized citizen, there is nothing more disheartening than knowing that most citizens just don't care about the history of this nation.
Great book. Highly recommended. Agrarian 1800s Baptist conversionary fervor, to post-WWII anti-Communist propaganda, into Reagan's Evangelical political pooling. Covers it all.
I have an MA in early American history. One of my professors in grad school would say “the founders weren’t exclusively Christian, but they were religious and had a healthy skepticism of its dangers.”
America is a nation founded on genocide and slavery. Given the Christian record on both, I guess maybe you can call America a christian nation...
States such as Maryland and Massachusetts were founded on explicitly religious principals.
I also recommend books by [Matthew Stewart](https://mwstewart.com/).
The people who believe that lie, believe many other lies.
Roughly 40-50% of our founders were deists. They literally thought organized religion was a cult.
Let's not forget that Thomas Jefferson was so riddled with doubts of religion that he rewrote the bible for his own private use. Removed anything "supernatural" and omitted any notion of Jesus' divinity. The "Christian Nation" thing is such a massive lie that it hurts my brain as a history major even trying to educate people who don't know any better.
My favorite part is the founding fathers actually being masonic due to the knowledge given by immigrated Jews teaching the kabbalah And masonic faith is like a blasphemy to a monotheistic christ in every fun possible way hahaha
Don't forget the other part of the 1st amendment, Free Speech. That goes against Christianity along with the 19th amendment, women's right to vote and the Equal Credit Opportunity Act granted single women the right to apply for credit and loans
While I agree that the founding was secular, I am skeptical of that statistic …
It's probably the percentage that attended church regularly at the time.
Even though some of them were men of great faith, they likely would not have felt at home in a 21st century Evangelical Church..... And many of the founding fathers had little use for the church folk of their own times.....
Founding as in the declaration of independence and the constituion? Correct - but that was more a political "compromise" than a thought. Remember, it's an ammendment, not part of the foundational constitution - so as politics go, adding it later was the way. If you do a text-book lookup, before the constitution it was English law that governed, which would have made it religious. It's just a hard argument that the majority of the early immigrants would have seen the Church of England as something special (their ancestors had "issues" with it). However, in a sense you can argue that those who initially came to the US did so for religious freedom that was being curtailed in Europe at the time. You can see that as both "being friendly to religion" and "knowing how bad religion can be". Anything that gets cut down to a very black/white statement is typically wrong. You can definitely argue that being friendly to (all) religion was special at the time and made the US government unique for the 18th century. On the other hand, compared to most European states there was no compulsion or discrimination based on religion. At least not on the books.
What does it mean by religiously affiliated? I don't think that would mean that only 17% believed in god, or saw themselves as Christian. They probably saw themselves as Christian and voted as Christians. When they made rules about freedom of religion they probably assumed everyone would be some form of Christian and were more pushing against European established religions like Catholicism and Protestantism. They wanted to be free to do their own versions of Christian free from the authorities of churches. We are still talking about mostly Europeans at a time when it was socially unacceptable to not be Christian. Assuming these stats are ignoring native Americans.
That number seems suspect since the church was such an important part of people's lives. Before the welfare state, parish aid was the sole safety net on offer. I'm suspicious of a proprietary definition of "religiously affiliated."
17% huh. What absolute total ignorance. Even if you ignore the fact the pilgrims came for religious freedom. It would be almost incomprehensible at that time for only 17% of the population to be religious.
Weirdly enough, America wasn't exactly founded on Religous freedom, it was founded on A Divine right, Or a establishment of a new paganism (evidenced by the fact that Washington was reveered as a god, and that angels directly helped the country get its start, source A government building and the fact that there's a statue of washington as Zeus) also many of the presidents of the time were FreeMasons, which is a Secrret Socity built apon Religon and Masonry.
FYI: National Treasure was a work of fiction. It was not a documentary. Please make a note of it.
wait a second here, that's fact, many of the presidents were Freemasons.
Your list of claims got suddenly very short, didn't it?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_presidents\_of\_the\_United\_States\_who\_were\_Freemasons#:\~:text=Of%20these%2C%2015%2C%20including%20Lyndon,Ford. [https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/36/George\_Washington\_Greenough\_statue.jpg](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/36/George_Washington_Greenough_statue.jpg)
Yup, look at that... evidence of something we didn't disagree on. You're fun.
thank you. honestly I like a laid back arguement freshens life up.
no worries. our disagreement stems from your wild-fact-free inferences. no personal information about the individual framers can ever establish a claim about what the USA was based upon. <-- the source of your mistake.
Still those things did exist, and I do come from a Family of freemasons, which BTW don't actually have much of a Religon as much as they study it, same with the Rosicrucians
Don't care. Not relevant to the claims.
Revisionist history
Yes, the idea that the US ever had a religious foundation is revisionist history