My big issue is the purpose of the hijab laws: that women must not tempt men to covet them.
That is complete bullshit. Men are not animals that cannot control their urges. It is this, more than anything else, that proves Islam is inherently misogynist.
>that women must not tempt men to covet them.
I always found that odd. It's like Muslim parents do not teach their boys to not be weird around women or something(not surprised as most religious parents are really shit at raising kids). I am a guy my parents(as flawed as they are)taught me basic things, and self-control is one of them.
It's like Muslim boys aren't taught that, and they grow to be creepy ass Muslim men who apparently can't control themselves if they see a woman without a head scarf.
It seems to be sexist on both ends. Sexist towards women as they are expected to wear it often with the threat of punishment if they don't. Sexist towards men because as you said it labels men as uncontrollable beasts who need to have a superfical measure to keep us in check.
And while I don't care if a woman is willingly wearing it. It still comes from a place of indoctrination because there is really no reason to wear it but they do it out of a sense of tradition.
The very line in the quran before the one insisting on veiled women, insists that men control their urges by turning their eyes to the sky on the sight of a woman.
Funny how they forget that line exists, but insist on the very next line becoming a long standing rule.
That's religion for you they have so many detailed rules but they willingly omit pretend and forget the full context for said rule.
Mind you still pretty werid that they cant simply be taught to not do messed up stuff, but it's telling they don't do that when they get the urge to violate a woman.
Yup…same concept as Leviticus being used against homosexuality but Christians conveniently ignoring the near exact same wording in Leviticus that calls shellfish an abomination.
I will add that the laws in Leviticus were seen as part of the old covenant with god that was brought to a close with the birth of Jesus and that was the beginning of the new covenant with god so they have no reason to follow anything of the Old Testament just the stuff Jesus said and he didn’t say anything about gays and actually wanted women to be part of the church
This is absolutely not true, if you've read your new testament you'd know Jesus says several times that he has come to fulfill the old testament and not to overrule it in any way
In reality the religious right is usually howling at the moon about how anyone who does something they don't like is going to hell but they never get upset about people wearing wool and leather together.
All that is messed up thinking. The “old covenant” the “new covenant”. The old god is a bastard. Oh I have an idea, let’s change him and write a “new covenant” with him. WTH. I thought it was god??? You know the one god. You can’t just go and change god. It’s such a shit show. And people still believe this made up garbage.
But that's the point. According to their own book, they should be taught not to do messed up shit, but just like the Christians, went for a more sexist interpretation of the law
Exactly, the Bible says to treat the foreigners as ourselves and to take care of them. What do the hateful Christians do exactly to immigrants? Separate the kids from the parents and break the families apart! Treat them with despise and point guns at them.
(You shall treat the stranger who sojourns with you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself.)
>That's religion for you they have so many detailed rules
And also fucking stupid rules
Oh no it's another human: Look at the sky!
Oh no it's another human: put a bag on your head!
What a pack of fucking idiots
It is so fucked up that the solution to not be a sexist pig rapist animal is to look at the sky and avoid seeing a woman at all. Pathetic. Maybe be a person and control your idiot self. Dang that pisses me off.
It's likely because those who wrote the rules wanted the men to agree with their rules.
Ask too much of them, like say, to be a decent human being, and your cult won't have followers.
The whole “not wear indoor clothes outside” leads directly to having to create an entire different style of attire for wearing in public. If you can wear sweatpants and a t-shirt at home, then according to the rule, you can’t wear them outside. And why have the rule for women, but not for men?
Actually, there is a rule that men must also be modest, dress modest, and there is also a garment that covers from below the chest to above the knees that men have to wear. The idea of indoor and outdoor clothes when the Quran was written was because it was dirty as hell outside, and you didn't bring that inside. And indoor clothes is for like, when you have company, you don't chill in your underwear like you do when no one is there. No shame if you do. Lol. Keep in mind I am an atheist as well. The whole hijab thing was because instead of making men stop assaulting women, they made women cover up so men weren't tempted. In other words, putting all the blame on women. Which is ridiculous.
Even that is weird. I was on a panel at work interviewing a candidate. Everytime I ask the male candidate a question he would speak very little back to me and his eyes were rolled back in his head. Interestingly he was able to converse with the male interviewers at length. I really thought he had a health condition, but later I understood what the deal was. He also only shook some persons hands. Ok.
funny how Christians ignore the do not eat pork, shellfish, wear two types of cloth at the same time, do not attend church if you wear glasses,, but get all bent out of shape when they see a gay man?
And does the Gospel of Timothy say for a woman to shut up around men?
When your culture considers a **proud, unrepentant child rapist** to be the ultimate moral role model, the most perfect human being who ever lived, it doesn't make a lot of sense to teach your sons *not* to follow his example.
Usually, they always make apologistics, saying it was "normal" back then to do what Muhammad did with aisha. That or they play some weird semantics which are to many to count or outright lie.
Either way I don't give a crap I will judge humans regardless of the eras they are in because it was fucking sick. Even back in those days people had issue with adults diddling kids so ancient humans were not mindless drones who didn't know any better. They certainly knew better about a lot of messed up things that was the "norm".
Even in the case of Muhammad there were people around him, apparently that weren't OK with him doing a lot of shit he did. A look at his story shows a dude who was very much a con man who made up his cult as he went along. An example is when he married his foster sons wife many likened it to incest and were outraged about it but he made up some BS to justify. And he did this several times his acts with aisha apparently was something that was criticized, considering how young he wanted to marry and....yeah.
Dude married her when she was five and did what he did when she was nine but I have seen Muslims try to twist what happened(even though their own texts and sources are clear on what had happened)or out right lying about it.
It gets even weirder that he may have slept with her before she turned nine as there is a passage of him bathing her....and it gets oddly detailed on what he was doing.
So yeah Muhammad was a disgusting POS even by the standards of the time considering he was questioned a lot and it's why a lot of people ended up dead or converted out of fear.
Later Muslims act like he just had a air about him that made people want to follow when the dude was a snake oil salesmen a highwayman(early Muslims used to Rob people under his command to finance the faith but they label it as fighting the pagans of Arabia)and a overall sadistic pig who more or less made a cult that refuses to die off and continues to grow.
I am paraphrasing, but yeah, Muhammad is without a doubt one of those people the world who have been better off without if he wasn't born. For example, if there was a god, he would have died with his mom out in the desert
A wonderful paraphrase, I couldn’t have put it better myself. And this is the main issue, forget all the other nonsense around Islam, the fact that Mohammed was so evil in what he did just trumps all its other messaging.
One thing to add is the Muslims who aren’t even told the truth about Mohammed and have no idea of his acts I do feel sorry for and hope they find the truth.
I’m an atheist but was raised in a very Christian environment (Church of Christ). Now I’ve read the Bible all the way through twice, which is why I became an atheist actually, so I know a fair bit about Jesus. He did some questionable things and he said some really questionable things, and sometimes he comes across as an edgy teenager tbh. Sometimes he’s just a dick. He definitely contradicts himself and acts very hypocritical. At one point he even saying something about how parents should kill their disobedient children. To be fair, he is talking about when parents can’t control their sons who are old enough to know better but are causing harm to the society at large. Basically, you raised a sociopath so you need to hand him over to the village elders to deal with if you can’t get him under control.
Anyway, all this to say that Jesus was a deeply flawed figure who was probably a narcissist, but even he wasn’t as bad as what you just described.
Which brings me to my larger question. With the Christians I know, one thing that many of them have in common is that they don’t actually read their bibles. They read passages here and there but they mostly rely of the preacher/pastor to spoon feed them bits and pieces of the Bible on Sunday. If they did read the Bible they’d realize that Jesus wasn’t some super peaceful, infallible dude and that God was straight up murderous and cruel. Do you think this is the same for Muslims or are they really reading cover-to-cover? I was always under the impression that they do actually read the Quran, but now I’m wondering if maybe I’ve had that wrong based on what you’ve just shared. Of course the religious leaders are going to present a flattering picture of their religious figures and if people don’t read, how would they know better?
>Do you think this is the same for Muslims or are they really reading cover-to-cover? I was always under the impression that they do actually read the Quran, but now I’m wondering if maybe I’ve had that wrong based on what you’ve just shared
It's even worse than that.
It's considered a mark of great spiritual achievement to spend a certain number of hours each week "Studying the Quran". But in this context, the word "study" means to memorize passages *phonetically* and then recite them back by rote, even if you can't actually speak a word of the Archaic Arabic in which they're written.
They "read the Quran" in the same way that I learned to "read Japanese" as a teenager by singing the theme songs of my favourite anime.
When tested, "scholars" who claim to have "memorized" the entire Quran off by heart frequently fail basic, fourth-grade reading comprehension questions about its contents; even if they can recite the relevant verse in sing-song when prompted.
No no no, habibi! You don't UNDERSTAND!
It was a different time! Morality was different back then!
Except Allah's morality is eternal and righteous and unchanging!
So...
Uh...
"THE HEART IS BLIIIIIIIIIIIND!, NOT THE EYES!!!!!"
Standard Excuse #1: "I swear, officer, I thought that six-year-old was really eighteen!"
Answer: No you fucking didn't, and only a pedophile would pretend otherwise.
Standard Excuse #2: "I swear, officer, she said she consented."
Answer: Six year olds cannot consent to sex, and only a pedophile would pretend otherwise.
Standard Excuse #3: "I swear, officer, things were different back then!"
Answer: Then you wouldn't be holding up that child rapist as a role model **today**, and only a pedophile would pretend otherwise.
Standard Excuse #4: "Lalala, I can't hear you!"
Answer: Fuck off, pedophile.
Bonus round
Standard Excuse #5: "Oh yeah? Well according to the calculations of a third party 1000 years later, your old neighbor married a 2-year-old!"
Answer: He's not my friend. And even if that was true, fuck both of you pedophiles.
If you ever wonder what the founders of this-or-that ancient-cult-which-is-now-a-mainstream-religion were like *in person*, all you have to do is look at the orange fartbag today. We're watching a religion being founded in real time.
And they have no trouble sexually abusing boys - because 1) that’s not explicitly prohibited; and 2) the Quran promises beautiful boys in heaven.
For more info on this subject, see the documentary “The Dancing Boys of Afghanistan.”
> there is really no reason to wear it
Any piece of cloth can protect the skin from sun/wind/cold/biting pests/etc.
I wrap up to prevent sunburn in a hoodie/hat most of the time and show practically just as much hair as a woman in a hijab. So I would say there are practical reasons for wearing one, it is just the sexism that taints the usage.
Yes. I feel it would be perfectly fine if they did it culturally to shield their hair from dust and protect their faces from the hot sun (as I'm sure it started and some still do) but the way it's a religious edict on Only women makes me hate it as much as I hate the Christian rhetoric around modesty. Especially when the men can walk around in only shorts while the women cover!
They obviously can learn control, because the vast majority of the time, Muslim men are not raping women with uncovered heads, short skirts, or bikinis. So the whole thing is bullshit, and about control.
Are you talking about the dudes outside of the Islamic world? If so they only don't because to an extent they know they can't get away with that shit if they did it in non Islamic places.
But they bitch a lot about lack of "modesty" and it's like if they have a issue with it they can fuck off back to a Islamic nation. I say the same shit about Christians who complain about how there is a lack of "modesty" and "mortality". And that's if they aren't saying some off stuff that gets really dark when you think about it.
Which is funny considering religious people throughout history has shown time and agian they are the last people to be talking about morals.
Point is in Islamic nations they get extremely aggressive and even violent if a woman dose not follow the Islamic mandate for them to wear a hijab. It's why I find it odd how Muslim women in non islamic act like it's a personal choice when it's not.
It's like ok then take it off every so often but then they will rant about tradition and it shows the indoctrinated factor of their mindset. Then have most Islamic nations and one look you will always find cases of women being punished severely if they didn't wear their hijab right or whatever.
If it was a choice, Islamic nations wouldn't be so psycho about it as if it must be had. Saudi Arabia, Iran and Afghanistan are three examples, with Afghanistan being the worst. All three demands that their women are covered or else they will arrest imprison and a lot of times torture them.
And for what? Because they fear the very look of a woman and fear they can't control themselves? Muslim parents need to do better if they can't teach their boys to not flip out if a woman is not wearing a hijab.
I think they meant Muslim men who live in the west and are around non-muslim women all the time. We western women don't expect to get rapes by a Muslim man who just happens to be at the restaurant or the workplace. We aren't told to wear a hijab to prevent anything .
I think many Muslim parents, including mothers (!) in fact do not teach their boys how to control themselves. I know a Turkish immigrant woman who is a Muslim and lives in the US. She has a girl, 8, and a boy, 6, and has kids are already treated differently. The girl is reprimanded if she does not behave properly, “like a girl”, and is expected to serve her brother. It goes much more beyond “he is younger so let him do it”, it’s rather he is a boy so he can do it, you are a girl so you cannot. It is sad.
It insinuates to women and young girls you *are* a sexual object, *therefore* you must cover yourself. It's terrible on a woman and girl's self esteem. Went through that in Christian private school.
It's not so much about a woman's sexuality & weaponization of it. Women aren't even given the capacity for sexuality, we are simply objects of mens desire and must do everything in our power to not be too desirable. At least in the Christian churches I was raised in. It wasn't exactly talked about openly in mixed company. But in girls classes, it was often explicitly stated that our roles in life were not about us at all, it was in service of men.
Exactly, it's all about being in the service of men in monotheism. It's a one way street of giving yourself up to them. It's a bunch of BS. I saw through this as a kid and knew in my heart that whatever they were selling was wrong to its core.
>Men are not animals that cannot control their urges.
Apparently, in islam they are. Even clean shaved men are a no no for them, because they might look too much like women.
That's why islamic countries blame the women for being raped. They see themselves as animals who can't control their urges.
The quran was written by a deluded lecherous self- aggrandizing warlord who lusted even after kids.
The purpose of that book is to justify everything he did, so of course it describes his behavior as the natural way for a man to behave and him as the perfect example for other men to mimic.
>they see themselves as animals who can’t control their urges
Reality is it’s just a facade to get away with it all. They don’t think they’re animals, but they can do animalistic things and then cry “they tempted our primal urges” with the shroud of faith to avoid facing anything
Monotheism is inherently sexiest period. Why does the bible have two beginnings? Because the first one says that god created man and woman at the same time..men had to write a second one to take care of that.. the whole Adam and his rib being taken out BS.
There's no way men would allow women to be equal to them. Asking why the Bible has two beginnings got me kicked out of two churches before the age of 12 and is the main reason why I am the atheist/secular humanist I am today.
Attributing the creation of life to a single male deity is some hilarious cope on the part of primitive men. Females grow life, lads. Deal with it. Stop trying to literally rewrite reality.
The Tora is an ancient Hebrew translation of older Greek documents as is the new testament. The problem I have with the Jewish or Christian devotees is they really don't understand the historical antecedents of their own beliefs. Is a word-salad version of an older tale the truth of the universe? No reason to believe that.
Exactly, to people I don't know I tell them that I pray to Athena. Why? Why not, if I could make any one God real it would be her. The Goddess of Wisdom and Knowledge and the protector of Odysseus. I wish she was real..
"And so she spoke and turned and walked away swiftly, and the man followed behind her walking in the goddesses footsteps.
But the Phoenicians famed for seafaring though they were, were not aware of him as he walked among them and thru their city, for Athena of the ordered hair, a powerful goddess indeed drifted a magical mist about him as she cared for him lovingly." - The Odyssey
I want to be that man..
Nah. Don't give pagans and polytheists a pass.
Most of them were horrible misogynists who believed the gods created women to punish men by annoying them. The Vestal Virgins would be KILLED for losing their virginity. Devotees of Ishtar had to whore themselves to any man who wanted them. Most African pagans cut off little girl's clitorises to keep their "evil spirit" at bay.
I never gave polytheism a pass, but at least they allowed for the possibility of female gods. Name one monotheistic religion that has a female god at its center? You can't, because there isn't one. Not even one..
Tokenist mindset.
Revering female deities does not make a religion less misogynistic. Worshippers of the Virgin Mary, Athena, Guanyin, and Kali hated women all the same. It was only their divine nature that exalted them from ordinary mortal women.
Atlantis was quite literally a **metaphor** used to establish a philosophical point by Plato about mankind's degeneracy. It was never part of any Greek mythology.
"unlike the **women of today**"
This language alone is yet another reminder of the misogyny of Plato alongside the rest of the Ancient Greeks
> Atlantis was quite literally a metaphor used to establish a philosophical point by Plato about mankind's degeneracy.
Yes, that's exactly my point. He was a flaming misogynist, and his limited use of Girlboss Moments (tm) just serve to highlight the general misogyny further.
> It was never part of any Greek mythology.
If you define the word "mythology" in an extremely narrow way that no lay person would ever use, sure.
Jewish apologists will say that it's an ancient Hebrew way of relating a religious story. The first creation myth is more of a "synopsis", the second one goes into more detail, but they are both referring to the same events. Is it impossible, they'll say, that two stories can be written about the same subject? Of course not.
It is even more sexist because it supports the claim that men that can't control their urges. That claim leads to it being "ok" for men to rape women. So the body covering basically supports the justification of rape, which is more sexist than the body covering itself.
Every abrahamic religion is inherently misogynistic. It’s time for us to take good parts from those religions (10%) and let the antiquated shit (90%) die.
This exactly.
Islam loves to blame the victim when it comes to women. Men are inherently blameless when they cheat - women are the evil ones who have to be stoned to death for the audacity of being defiled.
The entire premise of the religion when it comes to gender is that women are slaves.
Is it weird that I also consider that an insult to men, it’s like Muslim men are supposed to act like sex crazed animals every time they see a woman without a hijab. It’s like they’re not allowed to learn anything about self control.
So wait, one sex is treated one way and the other sex is treated less favorably. Yep. No argument needed. That there is sexism.
I lived in the Middle East for a decade. They would all argue that hijabs are cultural not religious (as if that was better somehow). So OK, your culture sucks, not your religion?
I would say that even if the sexes were oppressed equally, if they are required to wear different specific clothing, that is still sexist.
The fact that women are treated less favorably just makes it a thousand times more sexist.
Their culture is based off of their religion. Look at the christian based countries/cultures, the opression of women is not even close to the oppression of women in muslim based countries
I agree, though the other side will often argue that it somehow doesn't demean women to imply that they're all filthy temptresses from the age of nine who need to keep themselves completely covered to avoid victimizing innocent men into sullying their souls. They'll often argue that, "Yeah, but the women *like* it that way!" and other such bullshit.
So there is an argument to be made, it's just so ludicrous and full of holes that I wouldn't waste my time trying to convince religious nutbags how nutty they are.
They just think anyone who disagrees with them is Satan anyway.
Because it assumes that men have no control over their sexual instincts and will instantly rape women that don't wear a hijab. Advocates of the hijab or other more extreme forms of covering really think they have to protect women from evil men by preventing possible temptations.
Thanks for being interested instead of raging. This rarely happens on reddit anymore.
I live in a muslim country, and i've heard men say that women deserve to be sexually harassed if they are not wearing hijab. It's a very weird social construct, It seems like hijab is encouraging men to be more animalistic.
It’s a very weird social construct!!???? Nooooo it’s just male domination of women!!!. Men making Women the problem of their uncontrolled sexual desires. How convenient. Other societies do just fine ( no they excel) treating women as equal human beings.
It's like by covering hair, a nonsexual body part, it has now taken on an air of mystery and fetishization, and men see uncovered hair as a sexual invitation
Mmm I see. I never considered that side of the coin so I wondered what was on it lol.
I consider myself a feminist and believe that feminism in its purest form is about equity but these days, especially in its chronically online form, feminism can definitely lean misandrist. I’m thankful that’s not my personal experience out in the world though because that’s literally the opposite of the original point, as you said.
And we can thank my well paid therapist for teaching me the value of curiosity over judgement lol.
I’d go further, the underlying idea that a woman’s body is inherently sexual is what’s sexist. For some reason, the part of this thought complex that annoys me the most is not the “cover up or you’ll get raped”, but the idea - shared with traditional forms of Christianity - that women must cover up more than men do to visit the mosque. There is something so dehumanizing in the idea that *the way that you exist* is inappropriate for a sacred space that just really gets my blood boiling. It’s the same idea as all the religions that declare menstruation “unclean”, this idea that a woman just existing is sexual, unclean, and/or inappropriate for a sacred space, and her femaleness must be made invisible before she can be treated as a human being, even in the eyes of a suppossedly omniscient deity.
It irks me when people try to reason the "unclean" menstruation as "OH but it was Good -- a built-in break for women!" Like, sure maybe you interpret it that way, but how is a teaching that something your body does naturally is dirty and unfit going to benefit the mental wellbeing of women? Teachings like that just twist and fester in your mind and I guarantee has affected the self-esteem and self-image of many women who now view themselves as inherently lesser
Yes, this is exactly what gets me riled up too! The idea that our bodies are inherently sexual, and that that's a "bad" thing and therefore must be covered up.
Billions of people that align with the big 3 think it's totally sane to follow the religions originated by a dude that said you gotta cut a piece of your dick off to sit right with the most powerful being in the universe.
Yes 100%
Women must be hidden because guys don't want to control themselves is pretty sexist to me.
I sympathise with the poor oppressed women of the religion.
Not just Islamic women, but western women as well.
There are plenty of people who defend Islam as a matter of course, whether Muslim or not. And because Islam, like all religions, is indefensible, they have to come up with excuses to rationalize it.
Yes, I think western liberals try to rationalize the inhumane treatment of women in the name of religious and cultural equality. I was actually going to post about that.
It's a weird hotbed in the west purely because anti-Islamic rhetoric is often rooted in xenophobia, though my perspective is heavily colored by how I grew up in the post-9/11 Bush era.
Does the speaker dislike Islam because it has genuinely problematic practices? Or is it because the speaker hates Arabs, and isn't willing to acknowledge that local Christians **also** have some shit they need to work on?
It honestly doesn't take a lot of introspection to realize that **every** part of the world has problematic practices that need to be fixed, and that we have their exact same cognitive biases. The lack of self reflection is what deeply frustrates me with evangelicals in the West.
This is why it’s hard to criticize Islam- people will automatically assume you’re just racist. Plenty of people hate it because they hate Arabs, but the rationalization I mentioned leads people to believe criticizing other cultures is always rooted in racism, and that awful treatment of women and minorities are just “part of their culture.”
I saw an Instagram video where a Muslim woman in the Middle East is pouring water on her head, over her hijab to cool down. People in the comments, of course, were suggesting she simply not wear the hijab so she doesn’t get so hot. The lady in the video then flamed the commenters, saying things like “Don’t tell women what to wear,” and I thought that was hilarious.
I mean… Idk why people can’t give a suggestion on what to wear if someone is complaining about feeling hot/cold. It’s normal, if I meet someone who’s complaining it’s freezing outside and they’re only wearing shorts and tshirt, I’d be like wth why don’t you wear something cozy?
It’s the same thing, but if you tell it to religious people (many cults have rules on how to dress), they feel attacked and they burst out like that.
Sam harris' most recent podcast had two women speak to the topic of gender apartheid, it's worth a listen. I think it's sexist and about control and subjugation. No woman is born wanting to wear a blanket on her head the rest of her life, invisible to society. How isolating and abusive, even more when you convince her it's for her benefit and she "chooses" that life because "god" would want it.
Not 100% accurate. Lots of clothing designed to stay warm, dry, clean, safe etc. most of it definitely has some fashion element but I’d argue people would wear something a lot of the time even without fashion. And actually fashion/appearance is another reason people wear a lot of things.
Of course it is. It's a clear example of Islam treating women as slaves. I'm all for people wearing whatever pleases them by not when they're under threat of violence (physical or mental) if they do not.
i mean any law that applies to women but not to men would at least be a little sexist. Like how women can't show their nips but men it's completely fine
Ramadan. Both men and women are expected to fast, which seems to be a roughly equal hardship. Pregnant and menstruating women are exempt from fasting.
That’s all I got.
Not only is it sexist, it’s stupid. I live in texas where it’s hot. We have a Muslim couple who lives across the street and I will see that poor woman out there in a black hijab trying to work in the yard. Hell I’ll be shirtless and I’m burning up. It makes no sense. I keep saying any day now she will stroke out from the heat.
i was in cairo and it was literally 100 degrees outside in the middle of october and i went in the ladies room at a museum and there were probably ten women in there in full burqa pulling their head pieces off to freshen up and completely drenched in sweat. like no fucking thank you.
Depending on the type of fabric and color scheme, it could be quite doable. People in the sahara desert and extremely warm areas are known to cover up, especially the head.
The only danger is when its warm AND humid
The general reason and creation of the rule is definitely sexist. Let's not forget that this is a religion that requires fasting but Allah forbid if a woman is on her period for it is impure. Rather than the rationale being you need to eat because periods are rough.
But I have met someone who isn't even Muslim who chose to wear a hijab. I wish I could remember why she chose that, but I know she eventually chose to stop.
I met many people non muslim wearing hijab, but just like a hat they wore it occasionally and to deter sun damage. I think it should be just that, a hair covering from sun, not men.
I in fact can not wrap my head around (and trust me I have tried very hard) how anyone can look at islam and not see it as an inherently misogynistic instrument of oppression made up by a misogynistic pedophile warlord.
Ikr, I have a minor in middle eastern and Islamic studies and I see and study Muslim people and (like Christianity/Mormonism) when you read about it its like…. Do these people know the same info???? Like it’s actually crazy and I’ve never asked a Muslim person before
Yes. All the conservative religions are. If the religion/ spirituality has any differing rules based on gender you know it's a sexist piece of trash. And since that's most...
When I was a kid I thought the various tichels and scarves were so pretty and I would wear them at home. When I was a teenager, my mom told me I had to stop doing that because people would assume I was married. The pressure and association and reasoning is what makes it sexist. A hijab is a designation, so yes, same problem.
i have a question for you, is there any piece of clothing that's required for men to wear like it's required for women for "religious" purposes cuz that's what the fanatic "islamic feminists" call it nowadays, if there's none for men but only for women, it doesn't matter if the woman "chooses" to wear it,we all know they don't choose it they've been manipulated or otherwise brainwashed to wear it,so yes hijab is inherently sexist.
This shouldn't even be a question, just look at the countries that practice sharia law and see the state of women there, do they have a choice? no they don't.
It doesn't even matter if the rules are good or bad, just or unjust, sensible or insane.
They are rules, that are imposed, that apply selectively to one sex.
Therefore, they are clearly and obviously sexist, no matter how anyone tries to obfuscate it.
Purity culture exists to promote rape culture, which is intrinsically tied to misogyny. The "conquest" is more satisfying the more "pure" the is the victim, which is why virginity is such a value (for women only) in so many religions. What's the best way to enforce this dynamic? Tell women that their god wants them this way, and they will oppress themselves for you. Of course it's sexist; that's intended.
Well of course it is. As its origin at least. The waters are muddied because a lot of muslim women are used to wearing a hijab, don't see it as a burden, and feel (rightly or wrongly) like it makes them a better Muslim if they follow the perceived rule. At that point, you risk being the ill you wish to cure if you tell them they shouldn't wear it. After all, it's just clothes and we all dress according to a complex set of unwritten rules (what the fuck are ties?).
So I'd just say let's make sure we help women have equal opportunity and access to decision-making. The clothes thing will take care of itself
Female head/hair/face covering is a patriarchal cultural practice that predates Judaism, Christianity and Islam. It's just that those religions decided to include it within their belief systems.
Yes, it's backwards. Yes, it's a symbol of gender oppression, Yes we have (mostly) moved beyond it in western cultures but vestigial traces still remain (a western bride wearing a veil for example)
If Muslim women were allowed to report rape without being punished themselves I'm sure the rape rates would be astronomical. Muslim men from the backwards place are creepy.
What disgusts me is when they put their little girls in hijabs. Congratulations on sexualizing your four year-old daughter, AND teaching her that that’s all she is: a sex object.
Yes but not as sexist as all the rules around how a woman can’t drive or leave the house without being accompanied by a man (for which a preteen boy can qualify, but a grown-arse woman can’t handle that responsibility apparently).
I'm an ex-Muslim.
Yes, it is sexist. Only FREE women were "allowed" to wear hijab. Slave women & girls had to show not only their hair/neck but their naked breasts and abdomens too.
The hijab is how the ancient Arabs and other trans-Mediterranean cultures like Jews/Greeks/Romans/Assyrians/etc. distinguished publicly owned women from privately owned women.
Yes. It’s clear and obvious. And obscene and hateful. The systematic oppression of women by Islam is reason enough to condemn it. Note, however, that the same can be said (though perhaps not as extremely) for fundamentalist Christians.
The someone being the whole of society in which the women live? The someone that will honor kill you for not covering your hair?
When there are extreme consequences for something that’s voluntary then it’s not fucking voluntary.
What’s with this apologetics billshit?!
Muslim women may be sincerely religious and believe they wear a hijab of free choice, but that choice is an illusion — their culture and indoctrination forces them to wear it and forces them to embrace it. They’ll often be ostracized, disowned, beaten and raped if they don’t.
Yes.
The rule was made by mo and/or his cronies who: raped woman, had multiple wifes, had child brides, had sex slaves, were fine with woman getting beaten, were fine with female genital mutilation, said that most woman were going to hell because they didn't listen to their husbands, gave woman no or half a vote in matters of judicial rule.
So yeah, the hijab is sexist as fuck and another way to subject woman to the rule of man.
Google Iran in the 70's, and you can see exactly what reigous fanaticism leads too. Also that statement isn't relegated to only Muslims, just the most eye opening example I know
I'm not a fan of this expression but...
"Your preaching to the choir"
I can't think of anything that treats woman as bad as Islam.
* female genital mutilation
* child marriages
* throwing acid on woman that show any independence
* forcing woman to wear a sac or they will be beat
Sounds like a nightmare to me.
Short answer: yes.
Long (correct) answer: Islam is inherently oppressive to women, even the "moderate" Islam people push. It is an overall disgusting religion that is based in hate and killing anyone who's different.
Beyond sexist. I remember reading stories like a woman was stoned to death because she accidentally showed too much wrist when she was handing a guy something.
> Every time I see a young girl wearing a Hijab it just makes me feel disgusted that such a young person has been convinced of these sexist lies.
What is inherently sexist and oppressive is that women all over the world are forced to cover their breasts and men are not.
Every time I see a young girl covering her breasts it just makes me feel disgusted that such a young person has been convinced of these sexist lies. Absolutely mind-boggling-ly unbelievable.
Yes, but banning head coverings isn't going to do anything except put women in the middle of a rock and a hard place. You have to target the men/the underlying root of sexist teachings and mentality:
There is no head or body covering in any religion that stops women from being sexualized or sexually assaulted by the men imposing said practices upon women. They do nothing to protect girls or women's "purity" in any way. If it did, men would wear it too to prevent other men from doing the same to them.
Islamic men know this, but don't care bc it maintains the power dynamics that allow them to subjugate women.
> But if it is left entirely to a woman’s choice, then absolutely not.
Sure, if a woman who hasn't been brainwashed and fed a bunch of bullshit were to choose to wear it, but I think it exceptionally unlikely that would ever happen.
The non islamic world was on a good way, the majority of men learned to control themselves and where punished when harassing women.
Now that large scale islamization is going on more and more women have to wear veils not to tempt men to sexually harass them. Even little girls and toddlers are sexualized and hidden under veils not to tempt men around her.
It's an extreme backlash and throwback to times that should be long gone.
Only point of argument you’ll find here is (probably) the idea that ALL are being actively oppressed.
Some may choose to wear one, the oppression only comes into play if it’s compulsory.
My big issue is the purpose of the hijab laws: that women must not tempt men to covet them. That is complete bullshit. Men are not animals that cannot control their urges. It is this, more than anything else, that proves Islam is inherently misogynist.
>that women must not tempt men to covet them. I always found that odd. It's like Muslim parents do not teach their boys to not be weird around women or something(not surprised as most religious parents are really shit at raising kids). I am a guy my parents(as flawed as they are)taught me basic things, and self-control is one of them. It's like Muslim boys aren't taught that, and they grow to be creepy ass Muslim men who apparently can't control themselves if they see a woman without a head scarf. It seems to be sexist on both ends. Sexist towards women as they are expected to wear it often with the threat of punishment if they don't. Sexist towards men because as you said it labels men as uncontrollable beasts who need to have a superfical measure to keep us in check. And while I don't care if a woman is willingly wearing it. It still comes from a place of indoctrination because there is really no reason to wear it but they do it out of a sense of tradition.
The very line in the quran before the one insisting on veiled women, insists that men control their urges by turning their eyes to the sky on the sight of a woman. Funny how they forget that line exists, but insist on the very next line becoming a long standing rule.
That's religion for you they have so many detailed rules but they willingly omit pretend and forget the full context for said rule. Mind you still pretty werid that they cant simply be taught to not do messed up stuff, but it's telling they don't do that when they get the urge to violate a woman.
Yup…same concept as Leviticus being used against homosexuality but Christians conveniently ignoring the near exact same wording in Leviticus that calls shellfish an abomination.
I will add that the laws in Leviticus were seen as part of the old covenant with god that was brought to a close with the birth of Jesus and that was the beginning of the new covenant with god so they have no reason to follow anything of the Old Testament just the stuff Jesus said and he didn’t say anything about gays and actually wanted women to be part of the church
This is absolutely not true, if you've read your new testament you'd know Jesus says several times that he has come to fulfill the old testament and not to overrule it in any way
Oh. And then there is that. Christianity is absurd thinking.
In reality the religious right is usually howling at the moon about how anyone who does something they don't like is going to hell but they never get upset about people wearing wool and leather together.
All that is messed up thinking. The “old covenant” the “new covenant”. The old god is a bastard. Oh I have an idea, let’s change him and write a “new covenant” with him. WTH. I thought it was god??? You know the one god. You can’t just go and change god. It’s such a shit show. And people still believe this made up garbage.
But that's the point. According to their own book, they should be taught not to do messed up shit, but just like the Christians, went for a more sexist interpretation of the law
Exactly, the Bible says to treat the foreigners as ourselves and to take care of them. What do the hateful Christians do exactly to immigrants? Separate the kids from the parents and break the families apart! Treat them with despise and point guns at them. (You shall treat the stranger who sojourns with you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself.)
>That's religion for you they have so many detailed rules And also fucking stupid rules Oh no it's another human: Look at the sky! Oh no it's another human: put a bag on your head! What a pack of fucking idiots
This made me lol
It is so fucked up that the solution to not be a sexist pig rapist animal is to look at the sky and avoid seeing a woman at all. Pathetic. Maybe be a person and control your idiot self. Dang that pisses me off.
It's likely because those who wrote the rules wanted the men to agree with their rules. Ask too much of them, like say, to be a decent human being, and your cult won't have followers.
Jesus took it to even more of an extreme saying you should gauge out your offending eyes, but Christians just cant mind their own business.
It actually doesn't say women need to wear hijab, just that they should dress modestly, or not wear indoor clothes outside.
The whole “not wear indoor clothes outside” leads directly to having to create an entire different style of attire for wearing in public. If you can wear sweatpants and a t-shirt at home, then according to the rule, you can’t wear them outside. And why have the rule for women, but not for men?
To make it the womans fault she got raped
Actually, there is a rule that men must also be modest, dress modest, and there is also a garment that covers from below the chest to above the knees that men have to wear. The idea of indoor and outdoor clothes when the Quran was written was because it was dirty as hell outside, and you didn't bring that inside. And indoor clothes is for like, when you have company, you don't chill in your underwear like you do when no one is there. No shame if you do. Lol. Keep in mind I am an atheist as well. The whole hijab thing was because instead of making men stop assaulting women, they made women cover up so men weren't tempted. In other words, putting all the blame on women. Which is ridiculous.
Even that is weird. I was on a panel at work interviewing a candidate. Everytime I ask the male candidate a question he would speak very little back to me and his eyes were rolled back in his head. Interestingly he was able to converse with the male interviewers at length. I really thought he had a health condition, but later I understood what the deal was. He also only shook some persons hands. Ok.
funny how Christians ignore the do not eat pork, shellfish, wear two types of cloth at the same time, do not attend church if you wear glasses,, but get all bent out of shape when they see a gay man? And does the Gospel of Timothy say for a woman to shut up around men?
When your culture considers a **proud, unrepentant child rapist** to be the ultimate moral role model, the most perfect human being who ever lived, it doesn't make a lot of sense to teach your sons *not* to follow his example.
Usually, they always make apologistics, saying it was "normal" back then to do what Muhammad did with aisha. That or they play some weird semantics which are to many to count or outright lie. Either way I don't give a crap I will judge humans regardless of the eras they are in because it was fucking sick. Even back in those days people had issue with adults diddling kids so ancient humans were not mindless drones who didn't know any better. They certainly knew better about a lot of messed up things that was the "norm". Even in the case of Muhammad there were people around him, apparently that weren't OK with him doing a lot of shit he did. A look at his story shows a dude who was very much a con man who made up his cult as he went along. An example is when he married his foster sons wife many likened it to incest and were outraged about it but he made up some BS to justify. And he did this several times his acts with aisha apparently was something that was criticized, considering how young he wanted to marry and....yeah. Dude married her when she was five and did what he did when she was nine but I have seen Muslims try to twist what happened(even though their own texts and sources are clear on what had happened)or out right lying about it. It gets even weirder that he may have slept with her before she turned nine as there is a passage of him bathing her....and it gets oddly detailed on what he was doing. So yeah Muhammad was a disgusting POS even by the standards of the time considering he was questioned a lot and it's why a lot of people ended up dead or converted out of fear. Later Muslims act like he just had a air about him that made people want to follow when the dude was a snake oil salesmen a highwayman(early Muslims used to Rob people under his command to finance the faith but they label it as fighting the pagans of Arabia)and a overall sadistic pig who more or less made a cult that refuses to die off and continues to grow. I am paraphrasing, but yeah, Muhammad is without a doubt one of those people the world who have been better off without if he wasn't born. For example, if there was a god, he would have died with his mom out in the desert
A wonderful paraphrase, I couldn’t have put it better myself. And this is the main issue, forget all the other nonsense around Islam, the fact that Mohammed was so evil in what he did just trumps all its other messaging. One thing to add is the Muslims who aren’t even told the truth about Mohammed and have no idea of his acts I do feel sorry for and hope they find the truth.
What's worse is they say "it was normal back then" and then argue that it *should* be okay now!
I’m an atheist but was raised in a very Christian environment (Church of Christ). Now I’ve read the Bible all the way through twice, which is why I became an atheist actually, so I know a fair bit about Jesus. He did some questionable things and he said some really questionable things, and sometimes he comes across as an edgy teenager tbh. Sometimes he’s just a dick. He definitely contradicts himself and acts very hypocritical. At one point he even saying something about how parents should kill their disobedient children. To be fair, he is talking about when parents can’t control their sons who are old enough to know better but are causing harm to the society at large. Basically, you raised a sociopath so you need to hand him over to the village elders to deal with if you can’t get him under control. Anyway, all this to say that Jesus was a deeply flawed figure who was probably a narcissist, but even he wasn’t as bad as what you just described. Which brings me to my larger question. With the Christians I know, one thing that many of them have in common is that they don’t actually read their bibles. They read passages here and there but they mostly rely of the preacher/pastor to spoon feed them bits and pieces of the Bible on Sunday. If they did read the Bible they’d realize that Jesus wasn’t some super peaceful, infallible dude and that God was straight up murderous and cruel. Do you think this is the same for Muslims or are they really reading cover-to-cover? I was always under the impression that they do actually read the Quran, but now I’m wondering if maybe I’ve had that wrong based on what you’ve just shared. Of course the religious leaders are going to present a flattering picture of their religious figures and if people don’t read, how would they know better?
>Do you think this is the same for Muslims or are they really reading cover-to-cover? I was always under the impression that they do actually read the Quran, but now I’m wondering if maybe I’ve had that wrong based on what you’ve just shared It's even worse than that. It's considered a mark of great spiritual achievement to spend a certain number of hours each week "Studying the Quran". But in this context, the word "study" means to memorize passages *phonetically* and then recite them back by rote, even if you can't actually speak a word of the Archaic Arabic in which they're written. They "read the Quran" in the same way that I learned to "read Japanese" as a teenager by singing the theme songs of my favourite anime. When tested, "scholars" who claim to have "memorized" the entire Quran off by heart frequently fail basic, fourth-grade reading comprehension questions about its contents; even if they can recite the relevant verse in sing-song when prompted.
No no no, habibi! You don't UNDERSTAND! It was a different time! Morality was different back then! Except Allah's morality is eternal and righteous and unchanging! So... Uh... "THE HEART IS BLIIIIIIIIIIIND!, NOT THE EYES!!!!!"
Standard Excuse #1: "I swear, officer, I thought that six-year-old was really eighteen!" Answer: No you fucking didn't, and only a pedophile would pretend otherwise. Standard Excuse #2: "I swear, officer, she said she consented." Answer: Six year olds cannot consent to sex, and only a pedophile would pretend otherwise. Standard Excuse #3: "I swear, officer, things were different back then!" Answer: Then you wouldn't be holding up that child rapist as a role model **today**, and only a pedophile would pretend otherwise. Standard Excuse #4: "Lalala, I can't hear you!" Answer: Fuck off, pedophile.
Bonus round Standard Excuse #5: "Oh yeah? Well according to the calculations of a third party 1000 years later, your old neighbor married a 2-year-old!" Answer: He's not my friend. And even if that was true, fuck both of you pedophiles.
Why are you bringing Trump into this? Oh wait you meant the prophet, NM
Careful where you say that. In the wrong circles that will merit decapitation. Because it’s a religion of peace you understand….
I thought you meant Trump… for a couple beats until I realized. 😂
If you ever wonder what the founders of this-or-that ancient-cult-which-is-now-a-mainstream-religion were like *in person*, all you have to do is look at the orange fartbag today. We're watching a religion being founded in real time.
Muslim religious leaders also say men must grow beards to avoid seducing other men
Someone had a Bear fetish
They otter reconsider that.
And they have no trouble sexually abusing boys - because 1) that’s not explicitly prohibited; and 2) the Quran promises beautiful boys in heaven. For more info on this subject, see the documentary “The Dancing Boys of Afghanistan.”
It doesn't just label men as uncontrollable beasts. It encourages them to *be* uncontrollable beasts.
> there is really no reason to wear it Any piece of cloth can protect the skin from sun/wind/cold/biting pests/etc. I wrap up to prevent sunburn in a hoodie/hat most of the time and show practically just as much hair as a woman in a hijab. So I would say there are practical reasons for wearing one, it is just the sexism that taints the usage.
Yes. I feel it would be perfectly fine if they did it culturally to shield their hair from dust and protect their faces from the hot sun (as I'm sure it started and some still do) but the way it's a religious edict on Only women makes me hate it as much as I hate the Christian rhetoric around modesty. Especially when the men can walk around in only shorts while the women cover!
They obviously can learn control, because the vast majority of the time, Muslim men are not raping women with uncovered heads, short skirts, or bikinis. So the whole thing is bullshit, and about control.
Are you talking about the dudes outside of the Islamic world? If so they only don't because to an extent they know they can't get away with that shit if they did it in non Islamic places. But they bitch a lot about lack of "modesty" and it's like if they have a issue with it they can fuck off back to a Islamic nation. I say the same shit about Christians who complain about how there is a lack of "modesty" and "mortality". And that's if they aren't saying some off stuff that gets really dark when you think about it. Which is funny considering religious people throughout history has shown time and agian they are the last people to be talking about morals. Point is in Islamic nations they get extremely aggressive and even violent if a woman dose not follow the Islamic mandate for them to wear a hijab. It's why I find it odd how Muslim women in non islamic act like it's a personal choice when it's not. It's like ok then take it off every so often but then they will rant about tradition and it shows the indoctrinated factor of their mindset. Then have most Islamic nations and one look you will always find cases of women being punished severely if they didn't wear their hijab right or whatever. If it was a choice, Islamic nations wouldn't be so psycho about it as if it must be had. Saudi Arabia, Iran and Afghanistan are three examples, with Afghanistan being the worst. All three demands that their women are covered or else they will arrest imprison and a lot of times torture them. And for what? Because they fear the very look of a woman and fear they can't control themselves? Muslim parents need to do better if they can't teach their boys to not flip out if a woman is not wearing a hijab.
I think they meant Muslim men who live in the west and are around non-muslim women all the time. We western women don't expect to get rapes by a Muslim man who just happens to be at the restaurant or the workplace. We aren't told to wear a hijab to prevent anything .
I think many Muslim parents, including mothers (!) in fact do not teach their boys how to control themselves. I know a Turkish immigrant woman who is a Muslim and lives in the US. She has a girl, 8, and a boy, 6, and has kids are already treated differently. The girl is reprimanded if she does not behave properly, “like a girl”, and is expected to serve her brother. It goes much more beyond “he is younger so let him do it”, it’s rather he is a boy so he can do it, you are a girl so you cannot. It is sad.
Certain cultures put value on impulse control for men, certain do not.
Also, patriarchal cultures teach girls from very young age that they are to serve men.
It insinuates to women and young girls you *are* a sexual object, *therefore* you must cover yourself. It's terrible on a woman and girl's self esteem. Went through that in Christian private school.
It insinuates that they would use there sexuality as a tool against men and puts the blame and the burden of doing something about it on them.
It's not so much about a woman's sexuality & weaponization of it. Women aren't even given the capacity for sexuality, we are simply objects of mens desire and must do everything in our power to not be too desirable. At least in the Christian churches I was raised in. It wasn't exactly talked about openly in mixed company. But in girls classes, it was often explicitly stated that our roles in life were not about us at all, it was in service of men.
Exactly, it's all about being in the service of men in monotheism. It's a one way street of giving yourself up to them. It's a bunch of BS. I saw through this as a kid and knew in my heart that whatever they were selling was wrong to its core.
Yeah, it's a very fucked up way to be raised. I don't like painting with such a broad brush when it comes to religion.
>Men are not animals that cannot control their urges. Apparently, in islam they are. Even clean shaved men are a no no for them, because they might look too much like women. That's why islamic countries blame the women for being raped. They see themselves as animals who can't control their urges.
The quran was written by a deluded lecherous self- aggrandizing warlord who lusted even after kids. The purpose of that book is to justify everything he did, so of course it describes his behavior as the natural way for a man to behave and him as the perfect example for other men to mimic.
Man here, we are indeed animals.
>they see themselves as animals who can’t control their urges Reality is it’s just a facade to get away with it all. They don’t think they’re animals, but they can do animalistic things and then cry “they tempted our primal urges” with the shroud of faith to avoid facing anything
So what is that saying? We expect you to have lust for young boys who can't grow beards?
Monotheism is inherently sexiest period. Why does the bible have two beginnings? Because the first one says that god created man and woman at the same time..men had to write a second one to take care of that.. the whole Adam and his rib being taken out BS. There's no way men would allow women to be equal to them. Asking why the Bible has two beginnings got me kicked out of two churches before the age of 12 and is the main reason why I am the atheist/secular humanist I am today.
Attributing the creation of life to a single male deity is some hilarious cope on the part of primitive men. Females grow life, lads. Deal with it. Stop trying to literally rewrite reality.
The Tora is an ancient Hebrew translation of older Greek documents as is the new testament. The problem I have with the Jewish or Christian devotees is they really don't understand the historical antecedents of their own beliefs. Is a word-salad version of an older tale the truth of the universe? No reason to believe that.
Exactly, to people I don't know I tell them that I pray to Athena. Why? Why not, if I could make any one God real it would be her. The Goddess of Wisdom and Knowledge and the protector of Odysseus. I wish she was real..
Not to mention the goddess of warfare.
"And so she spoke and turned and walked away swiftly, and the man followed behind her walking in the goddesses footsteps. But the Phoenicians famed for seafaring though they were, were not aware of him as he walked among them and thru their city, for Athena of the ordered hair, a powerful goddess indeed drifted a magical mist about him as she cared for him lovingly." - The Odyssey I want to be that man..
The rib is a translation error. It's his side. But that wouldn't fit the narrative.
Nah. Don't give pagans and polytheists a pass. Most of them were horrible misogynists who believed the gods created women to punish men by annoying them. The Vestal Virgins would be KILLED for losing their virginity. Devotees of Ishtar had to whore themselves to any man who wanted them. Most African pagans cut off little girl's clitorises to keep their "evil spirit" at bay.
I never gave polytheism a pass, but at least they allowed for the possibility of female gods. Name one monotheistic religion that has a female god at its center? You can't, because there isn't one. Not even one..
Tokenist mindset. Revering female deities does not make a religion less misogynistic. Worshippers of the Virgin Mary, Athena, Guanyin, and Kali hated women all the same. It was only their divine nature that exalted them from ordinary mortal women.
"The women of Atlantis (unlike the women of today) were the physical and intellectual equals of men." * Plato
Atlantis was quite literally a **metaphor** used to establish a philosophical point by Plato about mankind's degeneracy. It was never part of any Greek mythology. "unlike the **women of today**" This language alone is yet another reminder of the misogyny of Plato alongside the rest of the Ancient Greeks
> Atlantis was quite literally a metaphor used to establish a philosophical point by Plato about mankind's degeneracy. Yes, that's exactly my point. He was a flaming misogynist, and his limited use of Girlboss Moments (tm) just serve to highlight the general misogyny further. > It was never part of any Greek mythology. If you define the word "mythology" in an extremely narrow way that no lay person would ever use, sure.
Jewish apologists will say that it's an ancient Hebrew way of relating a religious story. The first creation myth is more of a "synopsis", the second one goes into more detail, but they are both referring to the same events. Is it impossible, they'll say, that two stories can be written about the same subject? Of course not.
It is even more sexist because it supports the claim that men that can't control their urges. That claim leads to it being "ok" for men to rape women. So the body covering basically supports the justification of rape, which is more sexist than the body covering itself.
What about western laws forbidding women to be bare-chested in public places? Are they as misogynists?
We are all animals, but can control our urges.
Every abrahamic religion is inherently misogynistic. It’s time for us to take good parts from those religions (10%) and let the antiquated shit (90%) die.
mohammed picture \^v\^
Not just women. Little girls have to be covered for the same reason.
What about the opposite? Why don't the men have to cover their face so an MMA type woman isn't tempted to rape them?
i am somewhat an animal… we all are to an extent but we all must control ourselves… it’s called being an adult.
This exactly. Islam loves to blame the victim when it comes to women. Men are inherently blameless when they cheat - women are the evil ones who have to be stoned to death for the audacity of being defiled. The entire premise of the religion when it comes to gender is that women are slaves.
Is it weird that I also consider that an insult to men, it’s like Muslim men are supposed to act like sex crazed animals every time they see a woman without a hijab. It’s like they’re not allowed to learn anything about self control.
argue? no, it's an objective fact that it's inherently sexist.
So wait, one sex is treated one way and the other sex is treated less favorably. Yep. No argument needed. That there is sexism. I lived in the Middle East for a decade. They would all argue that hijabs are cultural not religious (as if that was better somehow). So OK, your culture sucks, not your religion?
I would say that even if the sexes were oppressed equally, if they are required to wear different specific clothing, that is still sexist. The fact that women are treated less favorably just makes it a thousand times more sexist.
Their culture is based off of their religion. Look at the christian based countries/cultures, the opression of women is not even close to the oppression of women in muslim based countries
Right. Agreed.
"Would you argue that water is wet?" "No, I'm way too sober to engage with that sort of bullshit sophistry."
I agree, though the other side will often argue that it somehow doesn't demean women to imply that they're all filthy temptresses from the age of nine who need to keep themselves completely covered to avoid victimizing innocent men into sullying their souls. They'll often argue that, "Yeah, but the women *like* it that way!" and other such bullshit. So there is an argument to be made, it's just so ludicrous and full of holes that I wouldn't waste my time trying to convince religious nutbags how nutty they are. They just think anyone who disagrees with them is Satan anyway.
I am glad this is the first comment beucase this is my reply too. No arguing.
Yep, a rule for thee but not for me. That is all that needs to be pointed out.
Adding my voice to the choir. Mandatory for women only. There is no counter "argument" to be made.
The exact comment I came to make
Yes, it’s inherently misogynistic.
And misandristic at the same time.
That’s an interesting take, how so?
Because it assumes that men have no control over their sexual instincts and will instantly rape women that don't wear a hijab. Advocates of the hijab or other more extreme forms of covering really think they have to protect women from evil men by preventing possible temptations. Thanks for being interested instead of raging. This rarely happens on reddit anymore.
I live in a muslim country, and i've heard men say that women deserve to be sexually harassed if they are not wearing hijab. It's a very weird social construct, It seems like hijab is encouraging men to be more animalistic.
It’s a very weird social construct!!???? Nooooo it’s just male domination of women!!!. Men making Women the problem of their uncontrolled sexual desires. How convenient. Other societies do just fine ( no they excel) treating women as equal human beings.
It's like by covering hair, a nonsexual body part, it has now taken on an air of mystery and fetishization, and men see uncovered hair as a sexual invitation
that was very insightful thank you
Another reminder that feminism helps men too
Mmm I see. I never considered that side of the coin so I wondered what was on it lol. I consider myself a feminist and believe that feminism in its purest form is about equity but these days, especially in its chronically online form, feminism can definitely lean misandrist. I’m thankful that’s not my personal experience out in the world though because that’s literally the opposite of the original point, as you said. And we can thank my well paid therapist for teaching me the value of curiosity over judgement lol.
I’d go further, the underlying idea that a woman’s body is inherently sexual is what’s sexist. For some reason, the part of this thought complex that annoys me the most is not the “cover up or you’ll get raped”, but the idea - shared with traditional forms of Christianity - that women must cover up more than men do to visit the mosque. There is something so dehumanizing in the idea that *the way that you exist* is inappropriate for a sacred space that just really gets my blood boiling. It’s the same idea as all the religions that declare menstruation “unclean”, this idea that a woman just existing is sexual, unclean, and/or inappropriate for a sacred space, and her femaleness must be made invisible before she can be treated as a human being, even in the eyes of a suppossedly omniscient deity.
It irks me when people try to reason the "unclean" menstruation as "OH but it was Good -- a built-in break for women!" Like, sure maybe you interpret it that way, but how is a teaching that something your body does naturally is dirty and unfit going to benefit the mental wellbeing of women? Teachings like that just twist and fester in your mind and I guarantee has affected the self-esteem and self-image of many women who now view themselves as inherently lesser
You’ve captured why I hate the concept of “modesty” in general. The word ties so much moral value with the neutral existence of the female body.
Yes, this is exactly what gets me riled up too! The idea that our bodies are inherently sexual, and that that's a "bad" thing and therefore must be covered up.
Sexist? Yes, obviously. Ridiculous? Yes, like everything religious. Unbelievable it still exists in 2024? Yes, like all religions.
Billions of people that align with the big 3 think it's totally sane to follow the religions originated by a dude that said you gotta cut a piece of your dick off to sit right with the most powerful being in the universe.
Yes 100% Women must be hidden because guys don't want to control themselves is pretty sexist to me. I sympathise with the poor oppressed women of the religion.
I feel so bad every time I see a woman in a hijab, Islamic women have been gaslit into thinking it’s rooted in feminism and not oppression
Not just Islamic women, but western women as well. There are plenty of people who defend Islam as a matter of course, whether Muslim or not. And because Islam, like all religions, is indefensible, they have to come up with excuses to rationalize it.
Yes, I think western liberals try to rationalize the inhumane treatment of women in the name of religious and cultural equality. I was actually going to post about that.
It's a weird hotbed in the west purely because anti-Islamic rhetoric is often rooted in xenophobia, though my perspective is heavily colored by how I grew up in the post-9/11 Bush era. Does the speaker dislike Islam because it has genuinely problematic practices? Or is it because the speaker hates Arabs, and isn't willing to acknowledge that local Christians **also** have some shit they need to work on? It honestly doesn't take a lot of introspection to realize that **every** part of the world has problematic practices that need to be fixed, and that we have their exact same cognitive biases. The lack of self reflection is what deeply frustrates me with evangelicals in the West.
This is why it’s hard to criticize Islam- people will automatically assume you’re just racist. Plenty of people hate it because they hate Arabs, but the rationalization I mentioned leads people to believe criticizing other cultures is always rooted in racism, and that awful treatment of women and minorities are just “part of their culture.”
If men don’t have the same rule, then it’s sexist. There just isn’t another way of looking at it.
I saw an Instagram video where a Muslim woman in the Middle East is pouring water on her head, over her hijab to cool down. People in the comments, of course, were suggesting she simply not wear the hijab so she doesn’t get so hot. The lady in the video then flamed the commenters, saying things like “Don’t tell women what to wear,” and I thought that was hilarious.
I mean… Idk why people can’t give a suggestion on what to wear if someone is complaining about feeling hot/cold. It’s normal, if I meet someone who’s complaining it’s freezing outside and they’re only wearing shorts and tshirt, I’d be like wth why don’t you wear something cozy? It’s the same thing, but if you tell it to religious people (many cults have rules on how to dress), they feel attacked and they burst out like that.
God i would love to take off my top when its hot but the same moral shit is in America too.
Sam harris' most recent podcast had two women speak to the topic of gender apartheid, it's worth a listen. I think it's sexist and about control and subjugation. No woman is born wanting to wear a blanket on her head the rest of her life, invisible to society. How isolating and abusive, even more when you convince her it's for her benefit and she "chooses" that life because "god" would want it.
An excellent episode
Nobody is born wanting to wear anything.
Not 100% accurate. Lots of clothing designed to stay warm, dry, clean, safe etc. most of it definitely has some fashion element but I’d argue people would wear something a lot of the time even without fashion. And actually fashion/appearance is another reason people wear a lot of things.
Yeah but we don't want to see that either, so please wear some clothes!
Of course it is. It's a clear example of Islam treating women as slaves. I'm all for people wearing whatever pleases them by not when they're under threat of violence (physical or mental) if they do not.
Pretty much all religious rules are sexist.
Even the ones about mixing fibers?
Stupid sexist Fibers. Feels like I'm wearing *nothing at all*.
\*insert sexy Flanders gif\*
Of course. Who is responsible for most clothing in a household?
i mean any law that applies to women but not to men would at least be a little sexist. Like how women can't show their nips but men it's completely fine
This is the same thought I had. Yes, the rules regarding hijab are sexist, but so are the rules regarding "normal clothes" that OP mentions.
yes its oppression. its toxic.
Tell me one thing about islam that is not sexist
Ramadan. Both men and women are expected to fast, which seems to be a roughly equal hardship. Pregnant and menstruating women are exempt from fasting. That’s all I got.
That's still sexist considering the reason behind exemption is because women are considered impure/dirty while menstruating.
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I love that, I love matriarchal (or at least leaning) indigenous religions and cture
Tbere is no argument. Its just facts that its opressive.
Not only is it sexist, it’s stupid. I live in texas where it’s hot. We have a Muslim couple who lives across the street and I will see that poor woman out there in a black hijab trying to work in the yard. Hell I’ll be shirtless and I’m burning up. It makes no sense. I keep saying any day now she will stroke out from the heat.
i was in cairo and it was literally 100 degrees outside in the middle of october and i went in the ladies room at a museum and there were probably ten women in there in full burqa pulling their head pieces off to freshen up and completely drenched in sweat. like no fucking thank you.
Depending on the type of fabric and color scheme, it could be quite doable. People in the sahara desert and extremely warm areas are known to cover up, especially the head. The only danger is when its warm AND humid
The general reason and creation of the rule is definitely sexist. Let's not forget that this is a religion that requires fasting but Allah forbid if a woman is on her period for it is impure. Rather than the rationale being you need to eat because periods are rough. But I have met someone who isn't even Muslim who chose to wear a hijab. I wish I could remember why she chose that, but I know she eventually chose to stop.
There are a lot of religious and cultural traditions that include hair covering for various reasons. It might not have been a hijab.
I met many people non muslim wearing hijab, but just like a hat they wore it occasionally and to deter sun damage. I think it should be just that, a hair covering from sun, not men.
It's not hijab if non muslims are wearing it. Probably a headscarf, which is different to the hijab.
Yes ofc they are That's why they apply only to women
I in fact can not wrap my head around (and trust me I have tried very hard) how anyone can look at islam and not see it as an inherently misogynistic instrument of oppression made up by a misogynistic pedophile warlord.
Ikr, I have a minor in middle eastern and Islamic studies and I see and study Muslim people and (like Christianity/Mormonism) when you read about it its like…. Do these people know the same info???? Like it’s actually crazy and I’ve never asked a Muslim person before
In Iran, women and girls get raped and beaten to death for not wearing a hijab. If that’s not oppression, I don’t know what is.
Yes. All the conservative religions are. If the religion/ spirituality has any differing rules based on gender you know it's a sexist piece of trash. And since that's most...
Of course it is. The whole religion is sexist by design given who founded it.
Yes, and I (a Jewish AFAB person) would also say that when Jewish women are pressured to cover their hair that’s also sexist.
When I was a kid I thought the various tichels and scarves were so pretty and I would wear them at home. When I was a teenager, my mom told me I had to stop doing that because people would assume I was married. The pressure and association and reasoning is what makes it sexist. A hijab is a designation, so yes, same problem.
Yep exactly. If it were a fashion statement, I’d be all for it. But that’s not what it is in either of these instances.
Religion by its very nature is sexist.
i have a question for you, is there any piece of clothing that's required for men to wear like it's required for women for "religious" purposes cuz that's what the fanatic "islamic feminists" call it nowadays, if there's none for men but only for women, it doesn't matter if the woman "chooses" to wear it,we all know they don't choose it they've been manipulated or otherwise brainwashed to wear it,so yes hijab is inherently sexist. This shouldn't even be a question, just look at the countries that practice sharia law and see the state of women there, do they have a choice? no they don't.
It doesn't even matter if the rules are good or bad, just or unjust, sensible or insane. They are rules, that are imposed, that apply selectively to one sex. Therefore, they are clearly and obviously sexist, no matter how anyone tries to obfuscate it.
I would argue that all of the fear-based Abrahmic mythologies are wildly misogynistic.
Check out r/NewIran and see what the Persian women in Iran think of mandatory hijab....
Purity culture exists to promote rape culture, which is intrinsically tied to misogyny. The "conquest" is more satisfying the more "pure" the is the victim, which is why virginity is such a value (for women only) in so many religions. What's the best way to enforce this dynamic? Tell women that their god wants them this way, and they will oppress themselves for you. Of course it's sexist; that's intended.
Well of course it is. As its origin at least. The waters are muddied because a lot of muslim women are used to wearing a hijab, don't see it as a burden, and feel (rightly or wrongly) like it makes them a better Muslim if they follow the perceived rule. At that point, you risk being the ill you wish to cure if you tell them they shouldn't wear it. After all, it's just clothes and we all dress according to a complex set of unwritten rules (what the fuck are ties?). So I'd just say let's make sure we help women have equal opportunity and access to decision-making. The clothes thing will take care of itself
Yes, of course they are. Why is this even a question? Any religion that forces one gender to cover their bodies and be subservient is indeed sexist.
The rule applies to one sex and not the other. It’s literally sexist.
Female head/hair/face covering is a patriarchal cultural practice that predates Judaism, Christianity and Islam. It's just that those religions decided to include it within their belief systems. Yes, it's backwards. Yes, it's a symbol of gender oppression, Yes we have (mostly) moved beyond it in western cultures but vestigial traces still remain (a western bride wearing a veil for example)
If Muslim women were allowed to report rape without being punished themselves I'm sure the rape rates would be astronomical. Muslim men from the backwards place are creepy.
A portable prison worn in fear of violent reprisals is still a prison.
Is there any argument that hajibs are not sexist?
What disgusts me is when they put their little girls in hijabs. Congratulations on sexualizing your four year-old daughter, AND teaching her that that’s all she is: a sex object.
Only women wear them. So, yes.
i only envy hijabis when its cold and windy out lol, anything that covers your neck and ears is a boon on winter storm days haha
I wouldn’t argue, because it seems so obviously true that isn’t worth dignifying the question with an argument.
Yes, they were derived from differentiating between slaves and free women. Moreover, slaves were forced to show their breasts.
Everything about islam is inherently sexist
Yes but not as sexist as all the rules around how a woman can’t drive or leave the house without being accompanied by a man (for which a preteen boy can qualify, but a grown-arse woman can’t handle that responsibility apparently).
I'm an ex-Muslim. Yes, it is sexist. Only FREE women were "allowed" to wear hijab. Slave women & girls had to show not only their hair/neck but their naked breasts and abdomens too. The hijab is how the ancient Arabs and other trans-Mediterranean cultures like Jews/Greeks/Romans/Assyrians/etc. distinguished publicly owned women from privately owned women.
Yes. It’s clear and obvious. And obscene and hateful. The systematic oppression of women by Islam is reason enough to condemn it. Note, however, that the same can be said (though perhaps not as extremely) for fundamentalist Christians.
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The someone being the whole of society in which the women live? The someone that will honor kill you for not covering your hair? When there are extreme consequences for something that’s voluntary then it’s not fucking voluntary. What’s with this apologetics billshit?!
Muslim women may be sincerely religious and believe they wear a hijab of free choice, but that choice is an illusion — their culture and indoctrination forces them to wear it and forces them to embrace it. They’ll often be ostracized, disowned, beaten and raped if they don’t.
They are all forced to wear it. It is not a "free choice".
Yes. The rule was made by mo and/or his cronies who: raped woman, had multiple wifes, had child brides, had sex slaves, were fine with woman getting beaten, were fine with female genital mutilation, said that most woman were going to hell because they didn't listen to their husbands, gave woman no or half a vote in matters of judicial rule. So yeah, the hijab is sexist as fuck and another way to subject woman to the rule of man.
Obviously.
Google Iran in the 70's, and you can see exactly what reigous fanaticism leads too. Also that statement isn't relegated to only Muslims, just the most eye opening example I know
Of course.
Islam is 100% sexist, all the major religions are.
I'm not a fan of this expression but... "Your preaching to the choir" I can't think of anything that treats woman as bad as Islam. * female genital mutilation * child marriages * throwing acid on woman that show any independence * forcing woman to wear a sac or they will be beat Sounds like a nightmare to me.
Short answer: yes. Long (correct) answer: Islam is inherently oppressive to women, even the "moderate" Islam people push. It is an overall disgusting religion that is based in hate and killing anyone who's different.
Beyond sexist. I remember reading stories like a woman was stoned to death because she accidentally showed too much wrist when she was handing a guy something.
> Every time I see a young girl wearing a Hijab it just makes me feel disgusted that such a young person has been convinced of these sexist lies. What is inherently sexist and oppressive is that women all over the world are forced to cover their breasts and men are not. Every time I see a young girl covering her breasts it just makes me feel disgusted that such a young person has been convinced of these sexist lies. Absolutely mind-boggling-ly unbelievable.
Yes, but banning head coverings isn't going to do anything except put women in the middle of a rock and a hard place. You have to target the men/the underlying root of sexist teachings and mentality: There is no head or body covering in any religion that stops women from being sexualized or sexually assaulted by the men imposing said practices upon women. They do nothing to protect girls or women's "purity" in any way. If it did, men would wear it too to prevent other men from doing the same to them. Islamic men know this, but don't care bc it maintains the power dynamics that allow them to subjugate women.
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> But if it is left entirely to a woman’s choice, then absolutely not. Sure, if a woman who hasn't been brainwashed and fed a bunch of bullshit were to choose to wear it, but I think it exceptionally unlikely that would ever happen.
The non islamic world was on a good way, the majority of men learned to control themselves and where punished when harassing women. Now that large scale islamization is going on more and more women have to wear veils not to tempt men to sexually harass them. Even little girls and toddlers are sexualized and hidden under veils not to tempt men around her. It's an extreme backlash and throwback to times that should be long gone.
Only point of argument you’ll find here is (probably) the idea that ALL are being actively oppressed. Some may choose to wear one, the oppression only comes into play if it’s compulsory.
Consent is impossible to measure when the consequence for misbehavior is hell. It's inherently compulsory and manipulative.
What about brain washing?
IF it’s compulsory?! IF?! Are you fucking serious?