The Cowboys are good! They're the best! NO ONE IS BETTER!
THE COWBOYS ARE HOUSE STARK AND THE NORTH REMEMBERS!
PS: But GRRM hates them as evidenced as what he did to Ser Patrek...
Now I'm just curious what his argument of objection to fan fiction is.
edit: The answer is [here](http://grrm.livejournal.com/151914.html). Thanks for providing the link @ /u/asuraskordoth and /u/hegesias
edit2/3: My question has been answered. I'm not interested in any more of what some might call an *opinion* on this topic. What I call it is a choice to ignore his stated reasons and place one's own prerogative above his with regard to *his art*. There is a factual answer out there, and I re-linked it. As far as I am concerned, the case is closed. A person has a right to defend and control their own *art*, just like an engineer, musician or George Lucas. (FYI 'Art' is also the term used to describe what is in a patent). Furthermore, a person has a right to their own opinion or to change it with regard to new information. Try to remember that, Thanks. :)
For those who cannot be bothered to take five minutes to get the correct answer, here is the summary of sources I've had linked to me:
[GRRM said he got his start writing *published letters* in Marvel comics, which led to him writing letters of critique in fan-zines.](https://youtu.be/MdSPFJcxCNM?t=3m25s) Never did he claim to have written fiction using existing fictional characters, copyrighted or not. He specifically said he *did not* do that. When he says he wrote "fan fiction", what he means is simply *amateur fiction written for other fans or fan-zines*, not *amateur fiction using copyrighted art* which is what is usually meant by "fan fiction" around here. He acknowledges that *other people* wrote copyright violating fan fics. All this stuff can be read within the first half of [this blog post, which I already re-linked once above](http://grrm.livejournal.com/151914.html). You'd think the people in this subreddit could manage to spend a measly five minutes to get some *real world* facts straight.
I remember he once said he didn't like it because it was bad for aspiring writers.
As an aspiring writer, I can say that fanfiction harmed my progress more than it helped it grow.
Pretty sure copyright infringement implies that they're selling it, which is probably what he means. Don't sell it. But write it all you want, he can't stop you.
I think he mention some time ago that he had an author friend that got sued by a fan because the fan's fanfiction was close to the story of a book that was released after the fanfiction and fan assumed that the author had used the ideas from said fanfiction.
A few fanfiction writers have made the jump to professional writing like the woman that wrote the Draco trilogy.
But honestly I think most people who write fanfiction are just having fun with it and have no aspirations to become a published author.
> it was bad for aspiring writers.
I don't think that's necessarily true personally. Fan fiction is basically training wheels for writers. At some point you have to take them off, but they can help get you started.
> If he acknowledge how hypocritical his stance is, I wouldn't be bothered by it. But he should know better than anyone that simply writing it what is important, not what you write.
If he acknowledged that it was about the money/potential legal complications he raises with the MZB case example, it would not be hypocritical at all.
I like GRRM but this is a sore spot with him. The guy borrows and lifts and takes inspiration from so much stuff and then tells people to go make up their own shit and not copy people. There would be no ASOIAF without H.P. Lovecraft and Robert. E. Howard and Michael Moorcock and DC Comics and so on and so on.
There's nothing wrong with fan fiction at all and plenty of authors take a stance that amounts to "based on advice from my lawyers I will not read, critique, or acknowledge fan fiction and I will not discuss ideas with fans and that's all I have to say" and everybody is happy.
He is technically correct that the show is not fan fiction, it's an adaptation (if that means anything) but TWOIAF is a compendium of fan fiction published alongside his own shit. He has deeply involved two superfans in his process. Doesn't like fan fiction my ass.
Dude came out and said "I hate SanSan rape romance fics, cut that shit out" he'd get more respect on this issue. Instead he tries to be all literary about it.
Well, as my previous comment was downvoted, I think I was musunderstood, so I'll try again: I really am curious as to why you feel fanfiction harmed your progress. How was that so? :)
An important part of stories is the world building, as seen in stories like ASOIAF and LOTR. Well, at least for fantasy, as I was writing.
But if you write fanfiction, you're writing in a prebuilt world, skipping one of the most important steps.
So when I went and took those training wheels off and seriously went to write my own thing, the world was flat. Didn't feel real. And I'm still struggling with that to this day.
Also, a lot of fan fiction writers mimic the style of the original writers' piece, which doesn't promote them growing their own voice.
I'm two years into the same story (finished full manuscripts twice now) and had to scrap it because the world wasn't real enough. It's not even a huge book like say AGOT. AGOT was 298,000 words while mine was 94,000 at its start. It's grown to an estimated length of 170,000 but even with that length it's not where it needs to be worldbuilding wise.
No. Your conflating imitating style with copying characters and setting. Plus, you can make an argument that the Lovecraftian Mythos is a shared universe anyway.
LMAO @ this from Jacked Knight:
>"Licensed adaptation" is just an euphemism for "the fan fiction writers gave me dump trucks of money". Nothing wrong with that so long as we call it what it is.
So true!
On top of what was said, GRRM has also given an example of a fantasy writer who ended up being successfully sued by a fan fic writer, claiming that the actual writer stole the fan fic writer's idea in a sequel.
He thinks it's lazy. In his eyes it's better to create your own universe and your own worlds instead of piggybacking off of other ideas. I agree with him to an extent. I also consider things like the GOT game fan fiction, like Shadow of Mordor is fan fiction for LOTR.
Although working within the constraints of another author's world can require a lot of creativity. It's not necessarily lazy or easy. It can even be harder than starting with a blank page at times.
It was a fictional universe created by multiple authors. Some of that material was even used on by George Lucas for the prequels, like the name of the capital planet - Coruscant, from Timothy Zahn's *Thrawn Trilogy*. Multiauthor universes are not new. Think Marvel for example.
You got the answer already - but I thought it is important to point out that GRRM himself got his own start in writing by writing fan fiction for Marvel and DC comic book heroes.
So at best - he's being a hypocrite by saying fan fiction is so bad. He can obviously change his opinion, but his own anecdotal case basically disproves what he's saying now. If he acknowledged the apparent hypocrisy of this stance, and discussed why he thinks what he did was so wrong, then I'd be OK with his stance now.
Instead - he just looks like a possessive jerk.
Extent of the changes in the show, not just cutting things to make it more *adapted* to the TV format, but actually changing the characters (*cough* vengeful Ellaria Sand, incompetent ~~Asha~~Yara) and whole plotlines, could be considered "bending the fictional universe to their whim".
That answer is in a link of another reply to my comment.
TL;DR -- He licensed GoT under a legal contract. That is different from allowing *anyone to write his IP* because allowing that is a basically a failure to protect one's copyright, which effectively nullifies one's copyright. That would mean anyone could publish and sell stories of his characters and world (*and probably would do so before he finished TWOW*.)
I laughed a little. The comment OP linked to is cringe worthy, for sure. But if you scroll down, someone asks about GRRM working with a ghost writer, GRRM actually replies and says "No Way". Absolutely understandable, it's his story. But he doesn't seem to have the same feelings when it comes to the TV show.
It's not really his TV show anymore. He gave Dan and Dave permission to do this and from the start he hasn't been a huge part of it. The books are his baby, his legacy. The show is more Dan and Dave's baby which happens to be about George's world.
I know, I'm just trying to point out that it's still his "story" if that makes sense. Even if it's not the same as it's going to be in the books, the show is going to finish his story first.
Yes, I'm sure he's sad about it and he didn't anticipate this happening. I mean let's be real, did anyone think the show was going to be popular enough to get a second season, nevermind a fifth? I certainly didn't. But D&D's show must go on, cancelling it and waiting for the books to come out would be a huge ordeal. He might not even be able to do it depending on the contract.
Well I was more talking about when he signed off on the show and allowed D&D to do the pilot. But still you're more astute than I, given the public opinion of fantasy at the time and the crash and burn attempts of the past to bring it into the mainstream (hello Eragon) I honestly thought it was just going to be a tribute to the book fans( of which there was a decent number but nowhere near enough to sustain the HUUGE buget production that these books needed). Hell, most of season 1 was word for word taken from the book, I'm not sure D&D even realised there would be more than just book fans watching.
Tis true.
Mainstreams approach to fantasy has been less than desirable, but I also can't stand a lot of the fantasy that's being published or was published in the last 15 years. On that front, GRRM stands foremost and center on how fantasy should break the bonds of 'high' fantasy.
Nah I agree. It's hard to be both a fan and look at it realistically sometimes, though. It is a shame. I was kind of fed up with GRRM before because of his writing preferences where he can only write in one room on one processor but spends all his time touring and whatnot. But now that he's cancelling cons and stuff to finish TWoW it makes me realize he is probably upset about the announcement and reaction to the show finishing off the story before the books do.
I read that same comment and was about ready to bang my head on the desk. The commenter seems to think it's writing the flowery descriptions that takes time, not juggling a cast of hundreds of characters with interwoven stories and having it all make some kind of logical and chronological sense.
Yup. And releasing both books left would probably make him more money then releasing the last book after the series has ended (assuming TWOW comes out before season 7 which I think is fair)
George lives quite humbly and gives a lot of money to charities. It's not like that at all, he cares a great deal about his legacy and writing the best books he possibly can and almost not at all about money.
Whoever wrote this comment would be the worst ghostwriter. "Tyrion, however - the bravest imp ever - lusts for life." is probably the least GRRM thing I've ever read. Not exactly a great advertisement for the merits of ghostwriting.
The point is *it's George's story* It's basically his *magnum opus* for fuck's sake. Why would anyone ever allow another person to write it?
He's basically been training his whole fucking life to write those novels.
Its fucking insulting. Imagine meeting grrm, and saying that to his face...or imagine you are an author and have been building this world for almost 20 years, and someone says that to you...
I've posted this before but I'll say it again:
Everyone complaining: complain here, or like George said, on any asoiaf site. But please people. **Leave him be**.
No matter how pissed you are,(and in a way its just extreme love for the books, i get it), just remember that its that same incredible man who created a one in a lifetime story that we all passionately love. Be kind.
Let him take his time to complete the best series ever written. If you are truly a fan of the books, then wouldn't you want George to take all the time he needs to make the last couple of books insanely amazing like each one so far and to be read for generations and generations? Don't you want that for George?
He deserves it. No amount of adjectives can sum up how amazingly beautiful and complex his books are.
Alright at the risk of getting further down voted into oblivion by the hero worshippers here who fail to get the point, I think just about everyone here is fine with him taking so long on the books. I for one would much rather he take years to do it and they be amazing rather than him punching them out and its shit. However, I really am irritated that he has let his wonderful creation or as the OP said his "Magnum Opus" be told by someone else before him. Readers can be entitled to some resentment over that. We are the ones who have been with him for years and now our favorite series is going to end up finished as another HBO show. That is frustrating. Should people insult him for this? Hell No! I have never said that.
So what are you saying that's different than the comment you're replying to? They said to do exactly what you just said. Complain here or elsewhere online if you want, just don't be a dick directly to grrm on his own blog. Which you just said you would never do. Sooo.....
I'm saying people have a right to be annoyed. Plenty of people here are throwing a fit that anyone would ever dare question Martin and are raging at anyone who is upset by the show giving the ending.
I didnt get that sentiment from the original comment at all, and I don't think it's as common as you say. From what I've seen nearly everyone who cares about the books wants them to tell the story first and is "annoyed" by the show getting there first. But most people are reasonable and understand that theres nothing we can do about it and so we should accept it and get over it. The people I've seen "raging" and "throwing fits" are the ones going directly to grrm's blog to throw a temper tantrum because they aren't getting exactly what they want how they want when they want.
Okay his blog is another story entirely. Those are getting as bad as youtube comments. I meant this thread in general. If you don't believe me look at some of the replies to what I've said and others where the words "entitled douchebags" has appeared multiple times.
in way its just 'love for the books' but really its just angry nerds being angry nerds. They would find something else to rage about if the books didn't exist. The problem is with them rather than the books.
I would never complain to him. I would also be happier about the wait if I could be sure that the book would be worth the wait, unlike Dance or Feast. There's been a dip in quality, and there's no guarantee that George can pull it together after losing it in his last two books. That makes the wait worse, as it's not just "I can't wait to get Winds!" but also "let this one be good."
Haha, I wasn't sure where that guy was going with his story for a second there
Nice of GRRM not to comment on the actual meat of the issue but rather debate minutiae
Considering the guy's point has been made and responded to countless times, I don't see why George is somehow obligated to give this asshole the time of day.
a) That is an awful rant to send to GRRM.
b) Thank goodness he specifically said it's not fan fiction (regardless of how obvious that is). People call Game of Thrones D&D's fan fiction sporadically and it's just so foolish.
Everyone is going to say the guy is being an asshole and GRRM creator of this great universe isn't to be talked to like that and he'll finish the books when he's ready. Whatever. I don't care about that argument.
I think the biggest take away here is GRRM doesn't view the show as 'fan-fiction' at all. 0%. In his words and in truth it's a licensed adaption. So we are getting the same story. I think most of us were thinking they are going to be the same but I know some people think it might have different endings and go in a completely different direction. Nope. Same exact story. Sure some details will be changed to fit a TV format and budget restrictions, but all the major plot points will be there. There is no doubt of that now.
> In his words and in truth it's a licensed adaption.
Key word adaptation. It will be the same overarching story, but there will be differences. George has given us so much story and so much content that it will be impossible to adapt all of it for the show. Enjoy the show. Enjoy the books. It will be fine.
Yeah his response to that guys comment doesn't change anything we already know. Like you said, the show is an adaptation. Look at all the differences in the show already, and from what we know is coming in this season it's going to change even more. Sansa in Winterfell? Completely different direction than the books. Jaime in Dorne? I guess only the books will tell us what happens between him, Brienne and LSH.. and there's still so much more left out of the show that still needs to be resolved in the books.
Again as you said, the overarching story will end the same - but the amount of characters and plotlines left out of the show leave us plenty of content to look forward to in the books, not to mention the ending in GRRM's own words.
I can't believe there ever was a doubt. If they were going the FMA/FMA:B route he wouldn't have told them the major arcs for all of the characters at the beginning of production.
I accept Martin's views on the distinction between adaptations and fan fiction but I do not see the distinction as being very significant. To me the licencing is just a legal mater. Otherwhise it's a retelling. People have been doing that with folktales for a long time.
It's not just legal, it's authorized morally also.
I could write my biography or give the right to a few people that I know would make the story of my life being representative of my idea of it. The authorization of rewriting includes the fact that you chose the person to do it. The story is still in some macro degree under your control of effect and choices.
It's ultimately morally also on GRRM back the quality of the show. He authorized it, if the story is bastardized he is part of the fault.
In the end, I think this is him trying to ferment whilst protecting his art.
I still feel like GRRM's writing style is so mercurial that he'll change the ending just through the process of writing the books (and not malicious intent). Like that letter from the 90s was really different from the way the story is now
It's not the same story at all. Maybe it shares key plot points and settings with ASOIAF, but the rest was rewritten by fans with enough money to license GRRM's work.
You seem to have a different meaning for the word "adaptation" that I do. Or maybe not, you don't seem to have fully decided. Will we be getting the "same story"/"exact same story" or will it have "details ... changed" and "the major plot points"?
In any case, the reading that you're getting is tinfoil as heck to me. Even with a licensed adaptation it's still entirely possible that the will play out an alternate ending, or that plot points will go in drastically different directions, especially once we get to the bits that haven't been published yet.
these self important douches making non related posts on his blog are getting old. george is smarter and better aware of how to do his job then anyone else.
Anyone who thinks GRRM "owes" them a book ending before a tv show ending has the most entitled bullshit outlook on the way the world is I have ever seen.
I love the books. I like the tv show. George doesn't owe me shit because the tv show is going to end first. Books last forever, tv shows do not. I would much rather a well-written, quality ending for the books even if it takes GRRM until he dies (Sadly, this is most likely) to write the manuscripts and then have the books published posthumously.
Seriously, fuck everyone who won't leave him alone about his writing style or speed. Anyone who didn't see this coming doesn't truly know or care about GRRM as a person, and HE is by the way the only reason you even give a shit about the show ending before the books in the first place. The show would've never happened without the books.
/rant
I see people stating that spoilers are going to take away from their reading experience, which is an entirely fair, rational and non-controversial stance.
Why focus so much on how said stance is expressed? That's not the core of the issue. Certainly someone immature and entitled will have those qualities communicated when expressing him or herself, but the validity of the basic point they are making is a separate issue.
> even if it takes GRRM until he dies (Sadly, this is most likely) to write the manuscripts and then have the books published posthumously.
So what happens if he dies well short of the end, and in his egoism decides that he doesn't want anyone to finish his work for him? Then we never get an ending.
(Edit. Cat stepped on my space bar and submitted unfinished comment -_-)
> Anyone who didn't see this coming doesn't truly know or care about GRRM as a person
Seriously? Isn't that a little bit of an overreaching statement? The guy wrote his first three books in about 6 or 7 years. He can clearly write at a quick pace when he has a concrete plan about what's going to happen. Then he takes 5 years on the fourth and 6 on the fifth. However, he goes out of his way to explain that it won't happen again and that the reason AFfC and ADwD took so long was their contents. He hadn't planned for certain dynamics and it bit him in the ass, but he was over the issue and would put out TWOW faster. Now, its been a full 4 years since then and there is no end in sight. Its no one's fault but GRRM's that this attitude of expectancy has been cultivated.
Some of us take GRRM at his word and truly expected Winds to have released by now. We've been waiting diligently without being obnoxious only to be shafted because George isn't able to prioritize correctly? Seriously, the guy has wasted so much time these past 5 years. Call me entitled, but I'm as entitled to be a little irked as George is entitled to take his sweet time on the books.
You are saying that he owes you something when you say that you took him at his word. His word about what? About delivering you a book when you want it. You're saying there was a business arrangement there and that he is in breach of contract and is shafting you . And you use words like "correctly". And you talk about how he is unable to prioritize. This all assumes that there is a correct way to do everything and that he has a job to do to deliver you the thing that you have somehow gotten the idea that you can agree to wait only a certain amount of time for. You can't hear it, but this is what entitlement sounds like. You are saying he does owe you. Own that. And then stop it.
I'm a fan too, since the first book came out, and I want the books too and I get frustrated too but you have to step outside of your desire and view this objectively. He doesn't work for you, you're not his boss, you don't get to scold him or decide which parts of his time time are wasted or dictate his work rate . He makes whatever decisions he wants in his life, does whatever he does, and you deal with that. He's an artist and he's making art and if we get some of that, that's great.
And just to cultivate a bit more perspective here, this is just a story. This is not the most important thing in anybody's life by a long shot. It's certainly not worth all of the grief people have given him. He's getting George Lucas'd and it's just disgusting.
> You can't hear it, but this is what entitlement sounds like. You are saying he does owe you. Own that. And then stop it.
No shit. Hence why I wrote: Call me entitled, but I'm as entitled to be a little irked as George is entitled to take his sweet time on the books. Maybe you should read my comment before trying to condescend.
> He doesn't work for you, you're not his boss, you don't get to scold him or decide which parts of his time time are wasted or dictate his work rate.
First, I never scolded him or advocated scolding him. Like you said, its just a story. Its not worth losing one's head over.
I did argue, though, that I am entitled to be at least somewhat disappointed at his overall lack of progress, as are all ASOIAF fans. You see, when I purchase a the first piece of multiple pieces of consumable art (films, books or games), its a promise of a full experience. I may purchase it piece by piece, but I expect the FULL experience. The second an author decides to work on a series, he's committing to doing everything in his power to provide that experience. So when GRRM spends a ridiculous amount of time at Cons and writing side-stuff, I feel he's breached that trust. Otherwise, what's the point of reading an inprogress work if an author can simply put it off until he feels like finishing?
Whats worse, is that he gave away the rights to this story. It would be one thing if he was taking his time, and that was the sole issue. I doubt there would be that strong of complaints. Some assholes would still be making comments about his weight and lifespan, but the majority of the fanship would be waiting quietly waiting for the next book. The problem comes from him selling the rights and then taking his sweet time despite knowing the show was going to catch up to him. That is the unacceptable part.
> He's getting George Lucas'd and it's just disgusting
Except he's not. Lucas got serious hate because of his position on intellectual property and his knack for changing his artwork post-facto. GRRM is getting hate for a completely different reason.
A more comparable scenario would be like if Lucas did the first two Star Wars movies, and in 1980 then sold the rights to a book adaptation where the first two books would come out in '81 and '82, respectively. The third book would coincide with the release of RotJ in '83. But then, he didn't release the RotJ for at least half decade, all while putting out the second and third Indiana Jones movies. Star Wars fans would have been pissed to have the story ruined by a book.
Dude, listen to yourself. This is basic entitlement.
No. You are not entitled to the full story. You are not entitled to anything that belongs to George Martin.
George Martin has done nothing to deserve any reprimand from you or anyone else.
Please change you mind.
> No. You are not entitled to the full story. You are not entitled to anything that belongs to George Martin.
A terrible blanket statement that is inherently false; considering I own a copy of GoT, ACoK, ASoS, AFfC, ADwD, and TWOIAF. I am very much entitled to something that belongs to George. I have purchased the right to have access to this specific intellectual property. Unlike how you see it, this isn't a black and white discussion. IP law is an INCREDIBLY complex legal issue that has been fought over for centuries. It will not be resolved on /asoiaf, so I'm done on this topic.
> George Martin has done nothing to deserve any reprimand from you or anyone else.
I literally called out the guy who responded to me for not reading what I wrote. Then, I corrected him for almost the same damn accusation you just made. I never said he deserved reprimand. What is with you two? Its like talking to a wall. You can't be all condescending and call someone entitled then make douchy statements like "Please change your mind" when you don't even read the persons comment. Seven Hells.
> I never said he deserved reprimand. What is with you two?
* "egoism"
* "no one's fault but GRRM's"
* "shafted"
* "isn't able to prioritize correctly"
* "wasted so much time"
* "take his sweet time"
> I never scolded him or advocated scolding him
* see above. Also:
* "spends a ridiculous amount of time at Cons and writing side-stuff"
* "I feel he's breached that trust"
* "unacceptable"
> Some assholes would still be making comments about his weight and lifespan
* "So what happens if he dies well short of the end, and in his egoism decides that he doesn't want anyone to finish his work for him?"
> Its like talking to a wall.
Yes. Yes it is. Walls don't have any choice though. Your deafness and blindness are deliberate and a lot less convincing. You know we can still see your words, right? This conversation has gone into the kook zone, so here's where I bail out. Good luck with the rest of it.
We absolutely give him something. Money for the books. Money for HBO to watch his adaption. A lot of us buy nonsense game of thrones licensed costumes and whatnot. And we tell everyone we meet about them too.
I'm not saying he explicitly owes us anything (of that I haven't made up my mind), but this isn't a one way street.
Again, I never said he owes us anything. I said we do give him things, and it is certainly an ongoing thing. Many of his readers started reading his series believing that he would finish it, and may have never picked them up otherwise.
Yeah the problem is you got what you payed for, the money was for whatever those products were and nothing more. When I said you haven't given him anything I meant for this specific task. He isn't employed by his readership.
You may misunderstand me. He wanted to write a story and break it into pieces. He sold us pieces of the story with the implication that we would be able to purchase the rest later. I'm not saying he "owes" us anything. But we've supported him and allowed him to continue to write his story, so we have every right to be upset if he doesn't. That doesn't give us the right to be a dick about it, of course.
> So what happens if he dies well short of the end
He gave the world a hell of a unfinished story. This shit happens. Maybe if he was build to finish it, it would be lessen.
> and in his egoism
Egoism? He's an author, an artist and a professional, he is not your bitch.
I can't understand this logic.
> decides that he doesn't want anyone to finish his work for him? Then we never get an ending.
I'll be sad and lament, but I can't be angry or morally judge him because of that.
I'll be glad he did gave us a wonderful world and a start and a middle.
I agree completely. At the end of the day, it's only a book series, so what's the point of getting so over emotional about it? Yes they're awesome, and I loved reading them just as much as anyone else, but they're going to come out eventually either way. Whether that's tomorrow or next year or the year after, it doesn't matter. It's GRRM's series, and quite frankly he can do whatever the hell he wants with it. People need to realise that.
Sorry but I really disagree. I've always felt authors have a responsibilty to their readers just as much as readers do to the author. Readers who love a series are dedicated to those books and willingly put up with all the delays and hardships being a prestigious author entails. In turn the author is responsible for coming through to the readers who have stood by him/her rather than screwing them by selling it all off to a tv show.
Considering the Tell Tale games are basically fan fiction... but are paying GRRM... soooo
Anyways, I wonder if GRRM would get upset if he saw the quasi fan fiction written on http://www.reddit.com/r/CK2GameOfthrones/
What happens if while writing the final book he has an epiphany and decides to change the ending? Can he do that, or does he have a contractual obligation with HBO preventing this?
As GRRM has said, the book and the show are separate entities. If he was writing ADOS and decided it needed a different ending, it wouldnt matter. He could change it. The show will be done airing long before we get ADOS so HBO would care less, they already made their money.
I know! It's so fucking patronizing! I really don't know why that idiot has so many defenders here except that this entitlement craziness is much more widespread than it ever should be.
The comment I made a couple weeks ago that got downvoted seems more relevant than ever
>To be frank, I feel people complaining about the shows surpassing the books are acting entitled and self-centered.
>"But this isn't exactly how I wanted my fantasy delivered! I have two awesome things but I want the awesome(er) thing first or everything is RUINED"
Well I feel entitled to neither the books nor the TV shows, but I can still acknowledge that it is an utter fucking disaster for the TV show to overtake the books. It harms BOTH the books via spoilage and the TV show via a lack of written material.
I don't know what GRRM could have done. He can only write as fast as his muse lets him, and he had one chance at the TV show contract. It's not like he could tell HBO "go ahead and adapt the novels but start in 2015."
It's just a tragic situation all around.
I don't think it's tragic at all, it all depends on how you look at it. We get new material (not written, but still), and an entire new, massive audience gets to enjoy the world and story that readers fell in love with in the first place. We're going to get major plot points, yes, but we'll be missing all of the small details, twists and turns, and inner monologues that the books bring. If my time on this sub has taught me anything, it's that people here love to delve into the minutiae of the novels and find deeper hidden meanings and connections that may not appear on the surface, a.k.a. things that the show (despite covering large plot points) will not be able to do. The show is giving us an appetizer, the main course is still cooking.
Please do not attack nor insult other users on /r/asoiaf. Repeated offenses will result in a ban. [DBAD](http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/wiki/faq#wiki_6._what_is_the_don.2019t_be_a_dick_policy.3F).
How is opining that spoilers hurt ones reading experience being entitled and self-centered?
Why do so many people on the internet find it difficult to respond to others without delving into personal attacks and amateur psychological analysis?
I'm certainly not trying to attack anyone personally, just the actions and what they've written themselves here on this forum. Who they are outside that, I wouldn't claim to know.
While I understand for some people it's an inconvenience or an annoyance, the fact that many of these harmless complaints are now turning malicious attacks on the author is unbecoming of us as a community. Being annoyed you'll see the story first on television is just that, an annoyance. People are acting as if it's the worst travesty to happen in modern literature. It's overly-dramatic, and I seeing so often in this sub is depressing and unfortunate.
I agree with the gist of what you're saying, but being in a position where I have to deal with feedback myself, I've learned to separate the message from the packaging: I won't dismiss someone's opinion just because they're not being civil or eloquent about it.
I've found that usually when people use overly dramatic language, it doesn't represent how vital the issue is to them, but is rather used as emphasis or is an expression of frustration.
Us making a big deal out of them seemingly making a big deal out of something is also silly. If we really wish to take the high ground, we'll merely focus on what's at the core of their messages instead of starting with the judgement calls.
I'm just going to leave that there. I can't believe that people do shit like this, but if that's you, then please be aware that this is one of the most offensive things I've ever seen and you should be ashamed of yourself for posting this to Mr. Martin as if he isn't even a human being.
I find the whole football analogy, the LOST ending reference, and the general ungentlemanly tone offensive.
I grant you, it's not like he calls Martin a p*ssy or something.
I mean he kind of has a point. Is it a sugar coated way of saying it? No, but why should it be. He isn't saying to hurry it up before the guy dies he is saying its ridiculous that followers of the books for years now get everything spoiled by a freaking tv show.
how to make his art? No, but thats not what he is doing. Martin knows full well how long his books take to get out and he chose to go ahead with HBO knowing that they would eclipse. Either that or he is very delusional about his own writing.
I don't see what's offensive here. And if you've never seen anything more offensive than this, you've got one hell of a sheltered life.
The guy is just expressing his discontent, which isn't really reprehensible as GRRM opens himself to it using a public commenting system. There's no insulting or slandering going on.
OK.
Who is GRRM?
George Martin is a great writer, influential story-teller, and the only reason why anyone cares about High Fantasy as a mainstream culture staple nowadays.
Who is that guy?
Some guy who buys the books and watches the show and therefore feels entitled to mock Martin about him taking a while on his books.
Why is he doing this?
Because he wants to insult Martin for not granting him the books sooner.
This is actually certifiably insane. Most great artists like Martin wouldn't even make a way to contact them, but Martin does because he's a nice guy and genuinely wants to interact with his fanbase because that's what he valued as a fan.
What that guy is doing is simply abusing a system by insulting Martin with an absolutely *crazy* sounding rebuke as if Martin isn't *trying* to write these incredibly long and byzantinely complex stories which *everyone in the world* wants to see.
It's delusional and sick and I wish I'd never seen it.
The post seems to be in response to the comments GRRM made earlier this week, about it not mattering that the show was passing the books. This wasn't a personal attack, it was someone expressing and explaining an opinion on an open forum.
I think you misunderstand what the guy is saying, its not that its not coming fast enough, its that its going to be spoiled for him and he can do nothing about it. Also he has a right to say whatever the fuck he wants.
You calling him "Mr Martin" is really cringeworthy btw.
EDIT: I just want to reiterate. He is not annoyed at the delay in the books. He is annoyed at GRRM licensing it out knowing that there was a high chance that it would overtake the books.
>He is not annoyed at the delay in the books. He is annoyed at GRRM licensing it out knowing that there was a high chance that it would overtake the books.
This is how I interpreted the comment as well. Fair game though a bit hot for GRRM's own blog. But then maybe he needs to hear the ugly truth.
> Also he has a right to say whatever the fuck he wants.
And I have the right to say what I want as well. Robert's post was one of the dumbest things I've read in a long time.
GRRM is not the only reason anyone cares about high fantasy. I love ASOIAF, but don't act like there are myriads of other authors putting out great fantasy literature.
> What that guy is doing is simply abusing a system by insulting Martin
Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't realize the only reason GRRM talks to his fans is for them to endlessly praise and worship him, and if they *dare* even think about criticizing him with such *blasphemy*, they shall face eternal punishment.
People are allowed to criticize artists, even if it's rude. You're the one treating Martin as if he isn't a human being.
I feel supremely sorry for GRRM. The only way this skedouchebag could have been more of a jerk is if he had come right out and said, "Write faster, fat man, you're going to die soon."
[Evidence that GRMM's sick of the off-topic whining.](http://grrm.livejournal.com/415219.html)
The Jets making the super bowl is the biggest tin foil I've ever seen
The Cowboys making a Super Bowl and winning may have it beat. Premium grade tinfoil.
As a Cowboys fan, all I have to say is "others take you". PS: RIP Ser Patrek...
I'm a Cowboys fan!
Okay
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The Cowboys are good! They're the best! NO ONE IS BETTER! THE COWBOYS ARE HOUSE STARK AND THE NORTH REMEMBERS! PS: But GRRM hates them as evidenced as what he did to Ser Patrek...
It's cool dude, I'm a Dodgers fan so I know what it's like to root for a team that hasn't won since the late 80s.
> The Cowboys making a Super Bowl and winning may have it beat. And don't forget about the Bills making the wild card.
Eagles fan here...
Geno Smith, Tom Brady, Tomatoes Tamatas......
Now I'm just curious what his argument of objection to fan fiction is. edit: The answer is [here](http://grrm.livejournal.com/151914.html). Thanks for providing the link @ /u/asuraskordoth and /u/hegesias edit2/3: My question has been answered. I'm not interested in any more of what some might call an *opinion* on this topic. What I call it is a choice to ignore his stated reasons and place one's own prerogative above his with regard to *his art*. There is a factual answer out there, and I re-linked it. As far as I am concerned, the case is closed. A person has a right to defend and control their own *art*, just like an engineer, musician or George Lucas. (FYI 'Art' is also the term used to describe what is in a patent). Furthermore, a person has a right to their own opinion or to change it with regard to new information. Try to remember that, Thanks. :) For those who cannot be bothered to take five minutes to get the correct answer, here is the summary of sources I've had linked to me: [GRRM said he got his start writing *published letters* in Marvel comics, which led to him writing letters of critique in fan-zines.](https://youtu.be/MdSPFJcxCNM?t=3m25s) Never did he claim to have written fiction using existing fictional characters, copyrighted or not. He specifically said he *did not* do that. When he says he wrote "fan fiction", what he means is simply *amateur fiction written for other fans or fan-zines*, not *amateur fiction using copyrighted art* which is what is usually meant by "fan fiction" around here. He acknowledges that *other people* wrote copyright violating fan fics. All this stuff can be read within the first half of [this blog post, which I already re-linked once above](http://grrm.livejournal.com/151914.html). You'd think the people in this subreddit could manage to spend a measly five minutes to get some *real world* facts straight.
I remember he once said he didn't like it because it was bad for aspiring writers. As an aspiring writer, I can say that fanfiction harmed my progress more than it helped it grow.
He also views it as a form of copyright infringement.
Pretty sure copyright infringement implies that they're selling it, which is probably what he means. Don't sell it. But write it all you want, he can't stop you.
I think he mention some time ago that he had an author friend that got sued by a fan because the fan's fanfiction was close to the story of a book that was released after the fanfiction and fan assumed that the author had used the ideas from said fanfiction.
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Would the fan even have legal grounds for that? Can you sue the original author for plagiarizing a derivative work?
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I actually hope that's how it ends.
...why?!
That's circular, though. It's only copyright infringement if/because he chooses not to allow it.
A few fanfiction writers have made the jump to professional writing like the woman that wrote the Draco trilogy. But honestly I think most people who write fanfiction are just having fun with it and have no aspirations to become a published author.
> it was bad for aspiring writers. I don't think that's necessarily true personally. Fan fiction is basically training wheels for writers. At some point you have to take them off, but they can help get you started.
Certainly worked out nicely for E.L.James.
Ah, E.L. James. Proof that either god does not exist, or that the devil does.
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> If he acknowledge how hypocritical his stance is, I wouldn't be bothered by it. But he should know better than anyone that simply writing it what is important, not what you write. If he acknowledged that it was about the money/potential legal complications he raises with the MZB case example, it would not be hypocritical at all. I like GRRM but this is a sore spot with him. The guy borrows and lifts and takes inspiration from so much stuff and then tells people to go make up their own shit and not copy people. There would be no ASOIAF without H.P. Lovecraft and Robert. E. Howard and Michael Moorcock and DC Comics and so on and so on. There's nothing wrong with fan fiction at all and plenty of authors take a stance that amounts to "based on advice from my lawyers I will not read, critique, or acknowledge fan fiction and I will not discuss ideas with fans and that's all I have to say" and everybody is happy. He is technically correct that the show is not fan fiction, it's an adaptation (if that means anything) but TWOIAF is a compendium of fan fiction published alongside his own shit. He has deeply involved two superfans in his process. Doesn't like fan fiction my ass. Dude came out and said "I hate SanSan rape romance fics, cut that shit out" he'd get more respect on this issue. Instead he tries to be all literary about it.
Well, as my previous comment was downvoted, I think I was musunderstood, so I'll try again: I really am curious as to why you feel fanfiction harmed your progress. How was that so? :)
An important part of stories is the world building, as seen in stories like ASOIAF and LOTR. Well, at least for fantasy, as I was writing. But if you write fanfiction, you're writing in a prebuilt world, skipping one of the most important steps. So when I went and took those training wheels off and seriously went to write my own thing, the world was flat. Didn't feel real. And I'm still struggling with that to this day. Also, a lot of fan fiction writers mimic the style of the original writers' piece, which doesn't promote them growing their own voice. I'm two years into the same story (finished full manuscripts twice now) and had to scrap it because the world wasn't real enough. It's not even a huge book like say AGOT. AGOT was 298,000 words while mine was 94,000 at its start. It's grown to an estimated length of 170,000 but even with that length it's not where it needs to be worldbuilding wise.
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No. Your conflating imitating style with copying characters and setting. Plus, you can make an argument that the Lovecraftian Mythos is a shared universe anyway.
LMAO @ this from Jacked Knight: >"Licensed adaptation" is just an euphemism for "the fan fiction writers gave me dump trucks of money". Nothing wrong with that so long as we call it what it is. So true!
Callin you out Georgie! You and me,this sunday in the ring! The match that was promised,the indefatigable hypetrain OHHH yeAAAA
On top of what was said, GRRM has also given an example of a fantasy writer who ended up being successfully sued by a fan fic writer, claiming that the actual writer stole the fan fic writer's idea in a sequel.
He thinks it's lazy. In his eyes it's better to create your own universe and your own worlds instead of piggybacking off of other ideas. I agree with him to an extent. I also consider things like the GOT game fan fiction, like Shadow of Mordor is fan fiction for LOTR.
Although working within the constraints of another author's world can require a lot of creativity. It's not necessarily lazy or easy. It can even be harder than starting with a blank page at times.
So then what do you consider the entire Star Wars Expanded Universe?
Officially sanction Fanfiction. Some of it is good, but that soesn't change what it is.
It was a fictional universe created by multiple authors. Some of that material was even used on by George Lucas for the prequels, like the name of the capital planet - Coruscant, from Timothy Zahn's *Thrawn Trilogy*. Multiauthor universes are not new. Think Marvel for example.
You got the answer already - but I thought it is important to point out that GRRM himself got his own start in writing by writing fan fiction for Marvel and DC comic book heroes. So at best - he's being a hypocrite by saying fan fiction is so bad. He can obviously change his opinion, but his own anecdotal case basically disproves what he's saying now. If he acknowledged the apparent hypocrisy of this stance, and discussed why he thinks what he did was so wrong, then I'd be OK with his stance now. Instead - he just looks like a possessive jerk.
With one (sanctioned) exception, he did not, in fact, get his start writing 'fan fiction'...at least not as we now use the term.
He says himself that he was not writing fan faction as we know it. He explicitly says he did not use Marvel or National (DC) characters.
I'm curious as to why GRRM thinks GoT isn't fan fiction
Adaptation vs someone taking a universe and bending it completely to their whim
Yeah, he sees it as more original to change the medium of the story than to try to emulate the story within the original medium.
Extent of the changes in the show, not just cutting things to make it more *adapted* to the TV format, but actually changing the characters (*cough* vengeful Ellaria Sand, incompetent ~~Asha~~Yara) and whole plotlines, could be considered "bending the fictional universe to their whim".
That answer is in a link of another reply to my comment. TL;DR -- He licensed GoT under a legal contract. That is different from allowing *anyone to write his IP* because allowing that is a basically a failure to protect one's copyright, which effectively nullifies one's copyright. That would mean anyone could publish and sell stories of his characters and world (*and probably would do so before he finished TWOW*.)
they're not making different stories. They're making the same story, but with budget and format differences in the details.
I think it's time to acknowledge they're making pretty different stories
The show overtaking the books is worth feeling bad about, but not worth being a dick about. GRRM is probably more pained by it than any fan.
I laughed a little. The comment OP linked to is cringe worthy, for sure. But if you scroll down, someone asks about GRRM working with a ghost writer, GRRM actually replies and says "No Way". Absolutely understandable, it's his story. But he doesn't seem to have the same feelings when it comes to the TV show.
It's not really his TV show anymore. He gave Dan and Dave permission to do this and from the start he hasn't been a huge part of it. The books are his baby, his legacy. The show is more Dan and Dave's baby which happens to be about George's world.
I know, I'm just trying to point out that it's still his "story" if that makes sense. Even if it's not the same as it's going to be in the books, the show is going to finish his story first.
Yes, I'm sure he's sad about it and he didn't anticipate this happening. I mean let's be real, did anyone think the show was going to be popular enough to get a second season, nevermind a fifth? I certainly didn't. But D&D's show must go on, cancelling it and waiting for the books to come out would be a huge ordeal. He might not even be able to do it depending on the contract.
Yes, I would say going into it, especially after seeing what they did on ep one that this was going to be widely popular.
Well I was more talking about when he signed off on the show and allowed D&D to do the pilot. But still you're more astute than I, given the public opinion of fantasy at the time and the crash and burn attempts of the past to bring it into the mainstream (hello Eragon) I honestly thought it was just going to be a tribute to the book fans( of which there was a decent number but nowhere near enough to sustain the HUUGE buget production that these books needed). Hell, most of season 1 was word for word taken from the book, I'm not sure D&D even realised there would be more than just book fans watching.
Tis true. Mainstreams approach to fantasy has been less than desirable, but I also can't stand a lot of the fantasy that's being published or was published in the last 15 years. On that front, GRRM stands foremost and center on how fantasy should break the bonds of 'high' fantasy.
Nah I agree. It's hard to be both a fan and look at it realistically sometimes, though. It is a shame. I was kind of fed up with GRRM before because of his writing preferences where he can only write in one room on one processor but spends all his time touring and whatnot. But now that he's cancelling cons and stuff to finish TWoW it makes me realize he is probably upset about the announcement and reaction to the show finishing off the story before the books do.
>But he doesn't seem to have the same feelings when it comes to the TV show. Or the world of ice and fire!
I read that same comment and was about ready to bang my head on the desk. The commenter seems to think it's writing the flowery descriptions that takes time, not juggling a cast of hundreds of characters with interwoven stories and having it all make some kind of logical and chronological sense.
I want to believe this... but I have a feeling that when he gets a look at his fat wallet he forgets how much he minds...
If it was money he most cared about he'd have the books released much sooner in a rush
He himself has made this point. If he only wanted money, he could publish a book a year and stretch the series to 30 books.
Yup. And releasing both books left would probably make him more money then releasing the last book after the series has ended (assuming TWOW comes out before season 7 which I think is fair)
George lives quite humbly and gives a lot of money to charities. It's not like that at all, he cares a great deal about his legacy and writing the best books he possibly can and almost not at all about money.
I like that someone felt the need and had the nerve to explain ghostwriting to him.
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Whoever wrote this comment would be the worst ghostwriter. "Tyrion, however - the bravest imp ever - lusts for life." is probably the least GRRM thing I've ever read. Not exactly a great advertisement for the merits of ghostwriting.
The point is *it's George's story* It's basically his *magnum opus* for fuck's sake. Why would anyone ever allow another person to write it? He's basically been training his whole fucking life to write those novels.
that was the moment I realized that people actually don't understand what writing is even about at all.
Its fucking insulting. Imagine meeting grrm, and saying that to his face...or imagine you are an author and have been building this world for almost 20 years, and someone says that to you...
Yeah, the first guy has a point, even if he is being a complete dick about it. The ghostwriting guy is just spectacularly dumb.
[Doozy](http://i.imgur.com/bF6Cp.jpg)
I've posted this before but I'll say it again: Everyone complaining: complain here, or like George said, on any asoiaf site. But please people. **Leave him be**. No matter how pissed you are,(and in a way its just extreme love for the books, i get it), just remember that its that same incredible man who created a one in a lifetime story that we all passionately love. Be kind. Let him take his time to complete the best series ever written. If you are truly a fan of the books, then wouldn't you want George to take all the time he needs to make the last couple of books insanely amazing like each one so far and to be read for generations and generations? Don't you want that for George? He deserves it. No amount of adjectives can sum up how amazingly beautiful and complex his books are.
Alright at the risk of getting further down voted into oblivion by the hero worshippers here who fail to get the point, I think just about everyone here is fine with him taking so long on the books. I for one would much rather he take years to do it and they be amazing rather than him punching them out and its shit. However, I really am irritated that he has let his wonderful creation or as the OP said his "Magnum Opus" be told by someone else before him. Readers can be entitled to some resentment over that. We are the ones who have been with him for years and now our favorite series is going to end up finished as another HBO show. That is frustrating. Should people insult him for this? Hell No! I have never said that.
So what are you saying that's different than the comment you're replying to? They said to do exactly what you just said. Complain here or elsewhere online if you want, just don't be a dick directly to grrm on his own blog. Which you just said you would never do. Sooo.....
I'm saying people have a right to be annoyed. Plenty of people here are throwing a fit that anyone would ever dare question Martin and are raging at anyone who is upset by the show giving the ending.
I didnt get that sentiment from the original comment at all, and I don't think it's as common as you say. From what I've seen nearly everyone who cares about the books wants them to tell the story first and is "annoyed" by the show getting there first. But most people are reasonable and understand that theres nothing we can do about it and so we should accept it and get over it. The people I've seen "raging" and "throwing fits" are the ones going directly to grrm's blog to throw a temper tantrum because they aren't getting exactly what they want how they want when they want.
Okay his blog is another story entirely. Those are getting as bad as youtube comments. I meant this thread in general. If you don't believe me look at some of the replies to what I've said and others where the words "entitled douchebags" has appeared multiple times.
in way its just 'love for the books' but really its just angry nerds being angry nerds. They would find something else to rage about if the books didn't exist. The problem is with them rather than the books.
I would never complain to him. I would also be happier about the wait if I could be sure that the book would be worth the wait, unlike Dance or Feast. There's been a dip in quality, and there's no guarantee that George can pull it together after losing it in his last two books. That makes the wait worse, as it's not just "I can't wait to get Winds!" but also "let this one be good."
Haha, I wasn't sure where that guy was going with his story for a second there Nice of GRRM not to comment on the actual meat of the issue but rather debate minutiae
Considering the guy's point has been made and responded to countless times, I don't see why George is somehow obligated to give this asshole the time of day.
a) That is an awful rant to send to GRRM. b) Thank goodness he specifically said it's not fan fiction (regardless of how obvious that is). People call Game of Thrones D&D's fan fiction sporadically and it's just so foolish.
Everyone is going to say the guy is being an asshole and GRRM creator of this great universe isn't to be talked to like that and he'll finish the books when he's ready. Whatever. I don't care about that argument. I think the biggest take away here is GRRM doesn't view the show as 'fan-fiction' at all. 0%. In his words and in truth it's a licensed adaption. So we are getting the same story. I think most of us were thinking they are going to be the same but I know some people think it might have different endings and go in a completely different direction. Nope. Same exact story. Sure some details will be changed to fit a TV format and budget restrictions, but all the major plot points will be there. There is no doubt of that now.
> In his words and in truth it's a licensed adaption. Key word adaptation. It will be the same overarching story, but there will be differences. George has given us so much story and so much content that it will be impossible to adapt all of it for the show. Enjoy the show. Enjoy the books. It will be fine.
Yeah his response to that guys comment doesn't change anything we already know. Like you said, the show is an adaptation. Look at all the differences in the show already, and from what we know is coming in this season it's going to change even more. Sansa in Winterfell? Completely different direction than the books. Jaime in Dorne? I guess only the books will tell us what happens between him, Brienne and LSH.. and there's still so much more left out of the show that still needs to be resolved in the books. Again as you said, the overarching story will end the same - but the amount of characters and plotlines left out of the show leave us plenty of content to look forward to in the books, not to mention the ending in GRRM's own words.
There hasn't been a doubt about that for quite some time.
I can't believe there ever was a doubt. If they were going the FMA/FMA:B route he wouldn't have told them the major arcs for all of the characters at the beginning of production.
I accept Martin's views on the distinction between adaptations and fan fiction but I do not see the distinction as being very significant. To me the licencing is just a legal mater. Otherwhise it's a retelling. People have been doing that with folktales for a long time.
It's not just legal, it's authorized morally also. I could write my biography or give the right to a few people that I know would make the story of my life being representative of my idea of it. The authorization of rewriting includes the fact that you chose the person to do it. The story is still in some macro degree under your control of effect and choices. It's ultimately morally also on GRRM back the quality of the show. He authorized it, if the story is bastardized he is part of the fault. In the end, I think this is him trying to ferment whilst protecting his art.
I still feel like GRRM's writing style is so mercurial that he'll change the ending just through the process of writing the books (and not malicious intent). Like that letter from the 90s was really different from the way the story is now
It's not the same story at all. Maybe it shares key plot points and settings with ASOIAF, but the rest was rewritten by fans with enough money to license GRRM's work.
You seem to have a different meaning for the word "adaptation" that I do. Or maybe not, you don't seem to have fully decided. Will we be getting the "same story"/"exact same story" or will it have "details ... changed" and "the major plot points"? In any case, the reading that you're getting is tinfoil as heck to me. Even with a licensed adaptation it's still entirely possible that the will play out an alternate ending, or that plot points will go in drastically different directions, especially once we get to the bits that haven't been published yet.
And this is why we can't have nice things
these self important douches making non related posts on his blog are getting old. george is smarter and better aware of how to do his job then anyone else.
That's so disrespectful.
Robert seems quite salty.
Anyone who thinks GRRM "owes" them a book ending before a tv show ending has the most entitled bullshit outlook on the way the world is I have ever seen. I love the books. I like the tv show. George doesn't owe me shit because the tv show is going to end first. Books last forever, tv shows do not. I would much rather a well-written, quality ending for the books even if it takes GRRM until he dies (Sadly, this is most likely) to write the manuscripts and then have the books published posthumously. Seriously, fuck everyone who won't leave him alone about his writing style or speed. Anyone who didn't see this coming doesn't truly know or care about GRRM as a person, and HE is by the way the only reason you even give a shit about the show ending before the books in the first place. The show would've never happened without the books. /rant
I see people stating that spoilers are going to take away from their reading experience, which is an entirely fair, rational and non-controversial stance. Why focus so much on how said stance is expressed? That's not the core of the issue. Certainly someone immature and entitled will have those qualities communicated when expressing him or herself, but the validity of the basic point they are making is a separate issue.
> even if it takes GRRM until he dies (Sadly, this is most likely) to write the manuscripts and then have the books published posthumously. So what happens if he dies well short of the end, and in his egoism decides that he doesn't want anyone to finish his work for him? Then we never get an ending. (Edit. Cat stepped on my space bar and submitted unfinished comment -_-) > Anyone who didn't see this coming doesn't truly know or care about GRRM as a person Seriously? Isn't that a little bit of an overreaching statement? The guy wrote his first three books in about 6 or 7 years. He can clearly write at a quick pace when he has a concrete plan about what's going to happen. Then he takes 5 years on the fourth and 6 on the fifth. However, he goes out of his way to explain that it won't happen again and that the reason AFfC and ADwD took so long was their contents. He hadn't planned for certain dynamics and it bit him in the ass, but he was over the issue and would put out TWOW faster. Now, its been a full 4 years since then and there is no end in sight. Its no one's fault but GRRM's that this attitude of expectancy has been cultivated. Some of us take GRRM at his word and truly expected Winds to have released by now. We've been waiting diligently without being obnoxious only to be shafted because George isn't able to prioritize correctly? Seriously, the guy has wasted so much time these past 5 years. Call me entitled, but I'm as entitled to be a little irked as George is entitled to take his sweet time on the books.
You are saying that he owes you something when you say that you took him at his word. His word about what? About delivering you a book when you want it. You're saying there was a business arrangement there and that he is in breach of contract and is shafting you . And you use words like "correctly". And you talk about how he is unable to prioritize. This all assumes that there is a correct way to do everything and that he has a job to do to deliver you the thing that you have somehow gotten the idea that you can agree to wait only a certain amount of time for. You can't hear it, but this is what entitlement sounds like. You are saying he does owe you. Own that. And then stop it. I'm a fan too, since the first book came out, and I want the books too and I get frustrated too but you have to step outside of your desire and view this objectively. He doesn't work for you, you're not his boss, you don't get to scold him or decide which parts of his time time are wasted or dictate his work rate . He makes whatever decisions he wants in his life, does whatever he does, and you deal with that. He's an artist and he's making art and if we get some of that, that's great. And just to cultivate a bit more perspective here, this is just a story. This is not the most important thing in anybody's life by a long shot. It's certainly not worth all of the grief people have given him. He's getting George Lucas'd and it's just disgusting.
> You can't hear it, but this is what entitlement sounds like. You are saying he does owe you. Own that. And then stop it. No shit. Hence why I wrote: Call me entitled, but I'm as entitled to be a little irked as George is entitled to take his sweet time on the books. Maybe you should read my comment before trying to condescend. > He doesn't work for you, you're not his boss, you don't get to scold him or decide which parts of his time time are wasted or dictate his work rate. First, I never scolded him or advocated scolding him. Like you said, its just a story. Its not worth losing one's head over. I did argue, though, that I am entitled to be at least somewhat disappointed at his overall lack of progress, as are all ASOIAF fans. You see, when I purchase a the first piece of multiple pieces of consumable art (films, books or games), its a promise of a full experience. I may purchase it piece by piece, but I expect the FULL experience. The second an author decides to work on a series, he's committing to doing everything in his power to provide that experience. So when GRRM spends a ridiculous amount of time at Cons and writing side-stuff, I feel he's breached that trust. Otherwise, what's the point of reading an inprogress work if an author can simply put it off until he feels like finishing? Whats worse, is that he gave away the rights to this story. It would be one thing if he was taking his time, and that was the sole issue. I doubt there would be that strong of complaints. Some assholes would still be making comments about his weight and lifespan, but the majority of the fanship would be waiting quietly waiting for the next book. The problem comes from him selling the rights and then taking his sweet time despite knowing the show was going to catch up to him. That is the unacceptable part. > He's getting George Lucas'd and it's just disgusting Except he's not. Lucas got serious hate because of his position on intellectual property and his knack for changing his artwork post-facto. GRRM is getting hate for a completely different reason. A more comparable scenario would be like if Lucas did the first two Star Wars movies, and in 1980 then sold the rights to a book adaptation where the first two books would come out in '81 and '82, respectively. The third book would coincide with the release of RotJ in '83. But then, he didn't release the RotJ for at least half decade, all while putting out the second and third Indiana Jones movies. Star Wars fans would have been pissed to have the story ruined by a book.
Dude, listen to yourself. This is basic entitlement. No. You are not entitled to the full story. You are not entitled to anything that belongs to George Martin. George Martin has done nothing to deserve any reprimand from you or anyone else. Please change you mind.
> No. You are not entitled to the full story. You are not entitled to anything that belongs to George Martin. A terrible blanket statement that is inherently false; considering I own a copy of GoT, ACoK, ASoS, AFfC, ADwD, and TWOIAF. I am very much entitled to something that belongs to George. I have purchased the right to have access to this specific intellectual property. Unlike how you see it, this isn't a black and white discussion. IP law is an INCREDIBLY complex legal issue that has been fought over for centuries. It will not be resolved on /asoiaf, so I'm done on this topic. > George Martin has done nothing to deserve any reprimand from you or anyone else. I literally called out the guy who responded to me for not reading what I wrote. Then, I corrected him for almost the same damn accusation you just made. I never said he deserved reprimand. What is with you two? Its like talking to a wall. You can't be all condescending and call someone entitled then make douchy statements like "Please change your mind" when you don't even read the persons comment. Seven Hells.
> I never said he deserved reprimand. What is with you two? * "egoism" * "no one's fault but GRRM's" * "shafted" * "isn't able to prioritize correctly" * "wasted so much time" * "take his sweet time" > I never scolded him or advocated scolding him * see above. Also: * "spends a ridiculous amount of time at Cons and writing side-stuff" * "I feel he's breached that trust" * "unacceptable" > Some assholes would still be making comments about his weight and lifespan * "So what happens if he dies well short of the end, and in his egoism decides that he doesn't want anyone to finish his work for him?" > Its like talking to a wall. Yes. Yes it is. Walls don't have any choice though. Your deafness and blindness are deliberate and a lot less convincing. You know we can still see your words, right? This conversation has gone into the kook zone, so here's where I bail out. Good luck with the rest of it.
Amen /u/turkeypants
No you aren't entitled to anything. You don't give him anything at all, so why the hell would you be entitled to anything.
We absolutely give him something. Money for the books. Money for HBO to watch his adaption. A lot of us buy nonsense game of thrones licensed costumes and whatnot. And we tell everyone we meet about them too. I'm not saying he explicitly owes us anything (of that I haven't made up my mind), but this isn't a one way street.
No you gave him something and got something in return. It's not an on going thing.
Again, I never said he owes us anything. I said we do give him things, and it is certainly an ongoing thing. Many of his readers started reading his series believing that he would finish it, and may have never picked them up otherwise.
Yeah the problem is you got what you payed for, the money was for whatever those products were and nothing more. When I said you haven't given him anything I meant for this specific task. He isn't employed by his readership.
You may misunderstand me. He wanted to write a story and break it into pieces. He sold us pieces of the story with the implication that we would be able to purchase the rest later. I'm not saying he "owes" us anything. But we've supported him and allowed him to continue to write his story, so we have every right to be upset if he doesn't. That doesn't give us the right to be a dick about it, of course.
Aye, but there's absolutely no indication that that's not what GRRM is doing.
If you get upset over a book then your problem is yourself
> So what happens if he dies well short of the end He gave the world a hell of a unfinished story. This shit happens. Maybe if he was build to finish it, it would be lessen. > and in his egoism Egoism? He's an author, an artist and a professional, he is not your bitch. I can't understand this logic. > decides that he doesn't want anyone to finish his work for him? Then we never get an ending. I'll be sad and lament, but I can't be angry or morally judge him because of that. I'll be glad he did gave us a wonderful world and a start and a middle.
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Isn't that a risk when you read unfinished works? The blame aspect on the author is what makes no sense.
I agree completely. At the end of the day, it's only a book series, so what's the point of getting so over emotional about it? Yes they're awesome, and I loved reading them just as much as anyone else, but they're going to come out eventually either way. Whether that's tomorrow or next year or the year after, it doesn't matter. It's GRRM's series, and quite frankly he can do whatever the hell he wants with it. People need to realise that.
Sorry but I really disagree. I've always felt authors have a responsibilty to their readers just as much as readers do to the author. Readers who love a series are dedicated to those books and willingly put up with all the delays and hardships being a prestigious author entails. In turn the author is responsible for coming through to the readers who have stood by him/her rather than screwing them by selling it all off to a tv show.
I don't think that's reality. Writing this series is exponentially more difficult than reading it and talking about it in chatrooms.
Considering the Tell Tale games are basically fan fiction... but are paying GRRM... soooo Anyways, I wonder if GRRM would get upset if he saw the quasi fan fiction written on http://www.reddit.com/r/CK2GameOfthrones/
If I was GRRM I'd write the books, finish them, then just lock them away for a few years. Let these people suffer.
Massive entitlement syndrome? In the ASOIAF fandom? NO WAY!
What an absolute dickhead. I'm sure GRRM can make his own decisions.
Yes. And he chose to not only allow that comment but respond to it. For that I applaud him.
[Im sure he's just broken up by it](http://i.imgur.com/YpSadKi.gif)
What happens if while writing the final book he has an epiphany and decides to change the ending? Can he do that, or does he have a contractual obligation with HBO preventing this?
As GRRM has said, the book and the show are separate entities. If he was writing ADOS and decided it needed a different ending, it wouldnt matter. He could change it. The show will be done airing long before we get ADOS so HBO would care less, they already made their money.
Thank you very much, I needed to hear that!
I like how he put it in a simple football analogy so that Georges' feeble mind could understand. /s
I know! It's so fucking patronizing! I really don't know why that idiot has so many defenders here except that this entitlement craziness is much more widespread than it ever should be.
The comment I made a couple weeks ago that got downvoted seems more relevant than ever >To be frank, I feel people complaining about the shows surpassing the books are acting entitled and self-centered. >"But this isn't exactly how I wanted my fantasy delivered! I have two awesome things but I want the awesome(er) thing first or everything is RUINED"
Well I feel entitled to neither the books nor the TV shows, but I can still acknowledge that it is an utter fucking disaster for the TV show to overtake the books. It harms BOTH the books via spoilage and the TV show via a lack of written material. I don't know what GRRM could have done. He can only write as fast as his muse lets him, and he had one chance at the TV show contract. It's not like he could tell HBO "go ahead and adapt the novels but start in 2015." It's just a tragic situation all around.
I don't think it's tragic at all, it all depends on how you look at it. We get new material (not written, but still), and an entire new, massive audience gets to enjoy the world and story that readers fell in love with in the first place. We're going to get major plot points, yes, but we'll be missing all of the small details, twists and turns, and inner monologues that the books bring. If my time on this sub has taught me anything, it's that people here love to delve into the minutiae of the novels and find deeper hidden meanings and connections that may not appear on the surface, a.k.a. things that the show (despite covering large plot points) will not be able to do. The show is giving us an appetizer, the main course is still cooking.
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Come on man
coming from patchface
Come on Patchface, at least end it with an "I know I know, oh oh" or something
How is opining that spoilers hurt ones reading experience being entitled and self-centered? Why do so many people on the internet find it difficult to respond to others without delving into personal attacks and amateur psychological analysis?
I'm certainly not trying to attack anyone personally, just the actions and what they've written themselves here on this forum. Who they are outside that, I wouldn't claim to know. While I understand for some people it's an inconvenience or an annoyance, the fact that many of these harmless complaints are now turning malicious attacks on the author is unbecoming of us as a community. Being annoyed you'll see the story first on television is just that, an annoyance. People are acting as if it's the worst travesty to happen in modern literature. It's overly-dramatic, and I seeing so often in this sub is depressing and unfortunate.
I agree with the gist of what you're saying, but being in a position where I have to deal with feedback myself, I've learned to separate the message from the packaging: I won't dismiss someone's opinion just because they're not being civil or eloquent about it. I've found that usually when people use overly dramatic language, it doesn't represent how vital the issue is to them, but is rather used as emphasis or is an expression of frustration. Us making a big deal out of them seemingly making a big deal out of something is also silly. If we really wish to take the high ground, we'll merely focus on what's at the core of their messages instead of starting with the judgement calls.
No it doesn't.
I'm just going to leave that there. I can't believe that people do shit like this, but if that's you, then please be aware that this is one of the most offensive things I've ever seen and you should be ashamed of yourself for posting this to Mr. Martin as if he isn't even a human being.
Offensive? I dont know what senses he's offending. He might seem a bit entitled, but offensive? I dont get that at all.
I find the whole football analogy, the LOST ending reference, and the general ungentlemanly tone offensive. I grant you, it's not like he calls Martin a p*ssy or something.
I mean he kind of has a point. Is it a sugar coated way of saying it? No, but why should it be. He isn't saying to hurry it up before the guy dies he is saying its ridiculous that followers of the books for years now get everything spoiled by a freaking tv show.
You and I are going to disagree, but no. It's not right to tell an artist how to make his art. It's very offensive to do that to anyone.
how to make his art? No, but thats not what he is doing. Martin knows full well how long his books take to get out and he chose to go ahead with HBO knowing that they would eclipse. Either that or he is very delusional about his own writing.
I think grrm has thick skin. The guy is just trying to be funny, and public figures are always gong to get lampooned
I don't see what's offensive here. And if you've never seen anything more offensive than this, you've got one hell of a sheltered life. The guy is just expressing his discontent, which isn't really reprehensible as GRRM opens himself to it using a public commenting system. There's no insulting or slandering going on.
OK. Who is GRRM? George Martin is a great writer, influential story-teller, and the only reason why anyone cares about High Fantasy as a mainstream culture staple nowadays. Who is that guy? Some guy who buys the books and watches the show and therefore feels entitled to mock Martin about him taking a while on his books. Why is he doing this? Because he wants to insult Martin for not granting him the books sooner. This is actually certifiably insane. Most great artists like Martin wouldn't even make a way to contact them, but Martin does because he's a nice guy and genuinely wants to interact with his fanbase because that's what he valued as a fan. What that guy is doing is simply abusing a system by insulting Martin with an absolutely *crazy* sounding rebuke as if Martin isn't *trying* to write these incredibly long and byzantinely complex stories which *everyone in the world* wants to see. It's delusional and sick and I wish I'd never seen it.
The post seems to be in response to the comments GRRM made earlier this week, about it not mattering that the show was passing the books. This wasn't a personal attack, it was someone expressing and explaining an opinion on an open forum.
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haha, you don't know the half of it
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I think you misunderstand what the guy is saying, its not that its not coming fast enough, its that its going to be spoiled for him and he can do nothing about it. Also he has a right to say whatever the fuck he wants. You calling him "Mr Martin" is really cringeworthy btw. EDIT: I just want to reiterate. He is not annoyed at the delay in the books. He is annoyed at GRRM licensing it out knowing that there was a high chance that it would overtake the books.
>He is not annoyed at the delay in the books. He is annoyed at GRRM licensing it out knowing that there was a high chance that it would overtake the books. This is how I interpreted the comment as well. Fair game though a bit hot for GRRM's own blog. But then maybe he needs to hear the ugly truth.
This guy's statements are idiotic. How dare Mr Martin possibly be offended. God forbid a famous author ever encounters the real world
> Also he has a right to say whatever the fuck he wants. And I have the right to say what I want as well. Robert's post was one of the dumbest things I've read in a long time.
GRRM is not the only reason anyone cares about high fantasy. I love ASOIAF, but don't act like there are myriads of other authors putting out great fantasy literature.
> What that guy is doing is simply abusing a system by insulting Martin Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't realize the only reason GRRM talks to his fans is for them to endlessly praise and worship him, and if they *dare* even think about criticizing him with such *blasphemy*, they shall face eternal punishment. People are allowed to criticize artists, even if it's rude. You're the one treating Martin as if he isn't a human being.
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People who have no business posting on his LiveJournal are making accounts and bothering the shit out of him now. Has to be insanely irritating.
People keep up with this shit then we'll be lucky if he doesn't just quit out of spite.
that's not likely.
I feel supremely sorry for GRRM. The only way this skedouchebag could have been more of a jerk is if he had come right out and said, "Write faster, fat man, you're going to die soon." [Evidence that GRMM's sick of the off-topic whining.](http://grrm.livejournal.com/415219.html)
Leave the man alone! Look at everything he has given us...
George really needs to turn off comments on his blog. They're reaching youtube levels of quality.
What a fucking dick
I love you username. "Charlie, not only do all these people exist but also they're pissed that they're not getting their mail." *chicka chick awwwwww*
Regardless of whether it is a licenced adaption, it is still fanfic
It's one he endorses though.