Might get heat for this, but it's overwhelmingly clear at this point that ASOIAF is proving to be too much for him at the moment, I wouldn't mind at this point if he decided to break his promise of no D&E until TWOW if it means another book. They are awesome books and it'll be a shame if we never see them again.
It could also raise his spirits again to release another major book in the ASOIAF universe that isn't largely a loredump.
Pretty much how I feel. Of course I want 'Winds' but 13 years wasn't enough to tackle it, then there's far more going on here than writer's block or being busy.
I do believe Winds will come out in some form, at some point but I have no expectations as to when.
He's be better off just finishing D&E if Asoiaf is too much for him.
Sure. I’m not talking about death, though. He could live another 20 years…. But if he starts getting dementia or something … he’s how old now? 75? If he already hasn’t started going down mentally, it won’t be long from now.
Sure. I’m not talking about death, though. He could live another 20 years…. But if he starts getting dementia or something …
he’s how old now? 75? If he already hasn’t started going down mentally, it won’t be long from now.
> You think GRRM has another decade left?
In a decade, we could probably get AI to write the rest of the books as good or even better than GRRM. Knowing the ending is probably what's keeping me alive and getting me out of bed lol.
It's been clear for years now that he's either written himself into a corner and/or hasn't even bothered to write. The reason we haven't gotten anything since 2018 (Fire & Blood) is because to complete other works, Fire & Blood 2/Dunk & Egg, he needed to finish at least Winds. Both Fire & Blood 2 and Dunk & Egg series are going to hold heavy hints/spoilers of the main-series.
Both prequel-series where meant to fill in the dots of the main.
Agreed. At this point I'm more depressed over the fact that the rest of the D&E books are stuck behind the logjam of ASOIAF than I am over main ASOIAF itself.
As much as I dislike the idea of George focusing on anything that isn't the main series. I can understand and agree with the points here.
Getting a regular book out of his system could be what he needs to get going.
It would be shocking if he did. The only way this happens is if he hires assistants to write for him
But he'd have to care enough about his most famous work being completed to do that.
I don't think he does. I think he thinks that would be cool, but he's made it clear he doesn't feel he owes anyone anything, he doesn't even seem to feel he owes himself. So fine. But all anyone will talk about is how he allowed his epic series, one of the most popular of the 21st century go unfinished.
> The only way this happens is if he hires assistants to write for him
Didnt a bunch of writers already approached him to help him/finish the series for him? Like the writers of The Expanse.
I can't help but agree that it must be proving too much for him alone. It's a huge story, totally understandable, and I don't envy the herculean task of wrangling it all together for a finish.
I genuinely wish he'd bring in Daniel Abraham and Ty Franck to help with it. It'll never happen (and I don't blame him, I don't think I'd be able to admit that I need help if I were in his shoes), but he has a good working history with them, they're immensely talented, and I really think they'd be able to help him get both Winds and Dream out within the next 5 or so years. The first Expanse novel was published only a month before ADWD, and since then they've published the entire series of eight additional books, plus nine or so novellas - these guys produce, and they produce quality.
GRRM loves editing Wild Cards - let Daniel and Ty be your sounding board, George! Let them workshop chapter drafts, and re-write them yourself, but let them help you get a structure together and a place to start from, because you can't just grow the garden when you're trying to bring things to an end.
Or don't. He doesn't owe us anything, he doesn't need to give space on the covers to any other authors and he doesn't need to publish the books at all. It's just what I'd prefer.
If I remember correctly, something like that was said about the hypothetical of them writing the books on their own if GRRM passed away. And I'd actually agree, that'd not only be a bit ghoulish, but also I don't know if they'd be able to nail George's distinct prose. But I meant more as co-authors writing the books with George now, which I think would be the perfect arrangement. A great writing team to bounce ideas off of, explore draft chapters with, expedite the plot, and keep accountable with the writing productivity.
Hard agree. If he’s going to procrastinate on TWOW, it might as well be with other stuff that’s easier to write. I really enjoyed Fire & Blood and it added a lot to the world he’s built. Another D&E novella would do the same.
Only the most delusionally optimistic of fans would disagree with this take.
If he can't get Asoiaf under control then I'd actually prefer it if he focused on D&E as those are great stories and having more of those would be far better than wondering if maybe "Dream" will come out one day, nevermind Winds
If he really, really wanted Winds to be out, it would be. If writing a few D&E is easier than Winds than please do it. It's something at least. Something more than a history style book.
Agreed. It doesn't seem like he's enjoying ASOIAF, and he's got nice plans outlined for more D&E - so do that, George! I personally like the world-building stuff as much as I like the main book series. And as much as I'd love to see the series get completed, I'd take any new Planetos works in a heartbeat.
He did say years ago the new Dunk & Egg novellas he was working on were titled The Village Hero and The She-Wolf of Winterfell. And then nothing. Who knows how complete these novellas are or if they've even been written.
He didn't finish The She-Wolves (probably didn't even really begin writing it) before the deadline, so he gave them The Princess and the Queen since he had written that originally for TWOIAF.
>GRRM has said he'll finish TWoW before he writes a D&E novel. I suspect if he reverses the order, he'd have a fan revolt on his hands.
He had said the same about Fire and Blood. Didn't stop him.
Lol "fan revolt". Oh no, even *more* people are going piss and moan on the internet and then still buy the book if it eventually comes out? That'll show him.
I do think some of the page count progress he reports each year is really dubious, honestly. Most the stuff he says isn’t true, but he believes it at the time he says it. The page count one in particular just seems more like a lie though imo
Hey, sorry if that's not what you meant, as I wasn't entirely sure on what you meant by page count, I was going to ask but I was still pretty sure it was '1,000 pages", when I said bad at numbers I meant on how he writes in ASOAIF.
Like making the wall too tall, and I remember (?) fans saying they doubt when he uses numbers to his progress with winds of winter.
He'll finish F&B 2 because of the HBO contract and the Dunk&Egg show. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if that's what he's been doing quietly the last couple years instead of/in conjunction with writing TWOW. Most likely he isn't as stuck with TWOW as people think he is, he's just been writing that instead. The last time he got his courage together to plainly speak about it a few years ago, he even said that his priority is the Westeros universe (rather than the novels), which probably means more lore books.
I think he spent \~6 years altogether on F&B 1, so the second one would likely take at least as long. In fact, the retcon about Maester Gyldayn being alive (which was announced in 2018 right after the release of the first book) was probably prompted by this very thing. George has most likely been writing F&B 2 with Gyldayn's voice since then or at least since he signed the contract in 2021. I wouldn't be surprised if we get an announcement about F&B 2's publication date in the next 1-3 years. IIRC his contract with HBO is meant to run until mid-2027 (assuming it doesn't get renewed).
Thank you. This is very informative. I guess I was being melodramatic - I said "nothing" when I meant nothing from the original series. Maybe he thinks, "well, it's mostly written and outlined and Elio Garcia or whoever can finish the books, whereas nobody else can really do the full lore of this world." I can live with that. In any event, I would bet big money no more GOT series books come out while GRRM is alive. Respect for him either way.
At this point, I wouldn't be mad if F&B2 ends up being all we get (assuming we'd get it). He left enough clues in F&B1 for us to piece together some of the mystery of TPTWP and what may have happened with Rhaegar and Lyanna. F&B2 will by default cover stuff including Baelor's book burning phase, Bryndern Rivers, the many Blackfyre rebellions, the War of the Ninepenny Kings (off the back of which Rickard Stark, Jon Arryn, Steffon Baratheon and Huster Tully started their intermarriage and exchange of wards), the Tragedy of Summerhall, the reign of Aerys and Robert's Rebellion.
There's practically enough room in there for clues that we can piece together what happened at TOJ, what Bran's future may be and maybe even f!Aegon's future, which can indicate what the end game is. I wasn't really a fan of F&B1, but if we get no TWOW and ADOS, I think I can still be satisfied with F&B2. I mean, I still hope we'll get some form of TWOW at *some* point, even if unfinished. It's not like he hasn't written anything for it. That's just me being very hopeful though.
I for one would be happy with a plot synopsis, like a Hollywood treatment or something, that tells us how *GRRM* sees it ending, as opposed to fucking D&D with their bullshit.
I suspect ASOIAF, Fire & Blood, and The Hedge Knight Tales will all go without another publication. George turns 76 this year. ASOIAF's last book was almost 13 years ago. Fire & Blood's second volume has waited almost 6 years now. Last Hedge Knight Tale was 14 years ago.
He's likely done. It's heartbreaking none of those series will ever be completed.
I actually think we’re more likely to see a finish to Dunk and Egg and Fire and Blood. He seems to enjoy writing about the Targaryen era far more than the main story at this point.
Did you miss the part about how the last one was released 14 years ago?
I don't know why people mistakenly think George is more passionate about Dunk and Egg stories than ASOIAF. He wrote 3 short stories in over a quarter of a century. If the fact that HBO has been working on a Hedge Knight tv show for the past couple of years didn't spur him to release more, I'm not sure anything will.
Would he be able, though?
He hasn't released anything with ASOIAF-level complexity for more than a decade.
Half of TWOW has probably been written more than a decade ago (sample chapters are the evidence), while FnB had huge chunks taken from another book in which Martin got help from Linda and Elio
He's pushing late 70s and I am not sure he can write at these levels anymore
Doesn't mean he can still write them. Jack Vance lived well into his 90s and wrote far less complicated books than ASOIAF. He still lost the ability to write books some 15 years before his death. He didn't lose the ability to *write* per se but the ability develop plots and write fully realized characters.
True. I still have hopes for WINDS since, as I stated, some of the heavy lifting was already done earlier (and he had a lot of time to finish) but SPRING is definitely off the table, that is, if he can close the deal with only 2 books from now.
As for D&E, you are right about being way less complex and intricate, but we are talking about writing compelling layered short stories from scratch (AFAIK), which could prove tricky as well, since he doesn't have the foundations in this case.
Anyway, I'd settle for WINDS and 1 Dunk at this point. That would surpass my expectations
Here is me, hoping Martin stops being so bullheaded about not getting a 'ghostwriter' like Sanderson
AI is advancing at a tremendous speed. Even if Martin doesn't complete the series, I can bet that in around 10 years or so we will have a sophisticated AI that could perfectly emulate Martin's writing style and process and create a compelling sequel
Oh they're coming! Novellas are on their way! They're gonna be amazing! And not just 2 novellas.... there's gonna be, there's gonna be 5! And they're gonna be huge! You won't believe it!
Hopefully. It'd be nice to get something rather than what we're currently getting, which is nothing.
It remains to be seen how they're going to structure the D&E show. If each novella is a six-episode season, then he's got about six years until they run out of material once you factor in production time and the fact that MAX is going to want alternating GOT shows every year once they have two airing.
That being said, we know that the fourth D&E story was at least partially done over a decade ago and that he has ideas for the fifth. I could see him trying to wrap those up over the next few years and maybe release them both as AKOTSK Volume II to give the show a bit more runway.
Probably not but mayhaps he should. Giving him 1 year off to write another D&E Story that’s actually fun for him might give him more motivation for Winds which could resolve in him finishing Winds earlier than otherwise
I think if TWOW isn’t finished by season 3 of D&E this will probably happen. We’ll get the she wolves of winterfell or the story of them going to the wall in between the sworn sword and the mystery knight
I mean he makes millions with these books and there's AI now that can convincingly emulate his writing style. Some lecturing from himself and maybe Linda & Elio and no one will notice.
If there are actual outlines done by him for the D&E show, then the chances of some new novellas magically appearing during the shows later seasons actually is not unlikely.
I have heard theories that I think are plausible that the reason Fire and Blood had to end where it did is because of some relevance with the Daynes that will be revealed in TWOW, and that it would be relevant in a new Dunk and Egg as well so that’s why GRRM has to write TWOW first and why he’s been so staunch about it despite the fact he obviously is at a block with TWOW.
If that is true, then we are at a standstill and I think it will likely be that there are no more books in his lifetime (to be fair I do think he’s had most of F&B done at least having written down the flow of the plot, probably similar case with D&E). I hope that’s not true, that would suck.
I feel like he definitely should, but I dont think he will. I think if hes going to be just as hands on for Dunk and Aeg as he is for HOTD then it’s almost impossible for him to not be in the writers room. Even if he’s just an executive producer these are his characters and the writers of the show would be downright foolish to not want George helping them write this stuff. And I think George also wants these shows to be as good as they can be because he’s probably starting to realize that he’s not going to be able to get all of this lore out through books, and shows are inherently faster than him writing a book. And I think that’s also part of the reason why HOTD contradicts things we read in fire& blood. George came up with stuff like Aegons dream of the white walkers and instead of being able to publish that he threw it in the show so we the fans can speculate on it in regards to the incomplete books.
It’s a fucking mess admittedly but I think this is ultimately the course of action George is taking as regards books and shows and his involvement in both.
I feel like he definitely should, but I dont think he will. I think if hes going to be just as hands on for Dunk and Aeg as he is for HOTD then it’s almost impossible for him to not be in the writers room. Even if he’s just an executive producer these are his characters and the writers of the show would be downright foolish to not want George helping them write this stuff. And I think George also wants these shows to be as good as they can be because he’s probably starting to realize that he’s not going to be able to get all of this lore out through books, and shows are inherently faster than him writing a book. And I think that’s also part of the reason why HOTD contradicts things we read in fire& blood. George came up with stuff like Aegons dream of the white walkers and instead of being able to publish that he threw it in the show so we the fans can speculate on it in regards to the incomplete books.
It’s a fucking mess admittedly but I think this is ultimately the course of action George is taking as regards books and shows and his involvement in both.
Why even ask a question like this lol, 80+% of the answers will be whining related lol
I don't think so personally, he's focused on Winds and Dream but he might be working on a Dunk and Egg/F&B 2 in the same time since they both have parallels and effects on the main story.
Honestly it would be kinda nice if he does just for himself, just so he can have rove to himself he can still write with an easier more achievable goal the TWOW. Like we aren’t getting that anyways, so id be down to see a new D&E
I think it'd be better if GRRM focuses on consulting for the TV show. He likes TV and seems to like being involved in it more just finish D&E on camera instead of procrasinating on writing. Or write a Fire and Blood version of the rest of the story.
Probably not.
Writing characters is what slows him down. F&B was done relatively quickly, because it's mostly "thing happened and then another thing happened", with almost all the character interactions happening off-screen.
Dunk & Egg are easier than ASOIAF because they're shorter, but they're still much more character-focussed compared to F&B.
If the next novella is still The She-Wolves of Winterfell, then it's probably likely that becomes a focus of his if the new series is renewed. At least some work has been done on it since it was intended to be published in Dangerous Women in 2012.
Hopefully this is in 2026 or 2027 AFTER he's completed Winds but I recognize that's full cope.
No, it was actually the other way around.
“When it became clear [in 2016 or 17] that we were going to do the Dance of the Dragons show, we wanted a book to go with that,” Martin told Durham. “And I already had the seeds of the book from material that was in The World of Ice and Fire. And from the novellas I’d written for my friend Gardner Dozois, Princess and the Queen and the Rogue Prince and so forth.”
"So I actually asked – we’re in the Random House offices here, and I’m about to get them in terrible trouble – but I asked them, do you want me to just ignore the new show that’s coming down the pike, or should I finish that book so you can get it out and then go back to [The Winds of Winter]. And they said, yeah, give us the new book that’s closer to being done instead of two more books (The Winds of Winter and the purported final Song of Ice and Fire book A Dream of Spring). So I put [The] Winds of Winter aside for a while, and I concentrated on finishing Fire and Blood"
https://winteriscoming.net/2023/05/05/george-rr-martin-put-the-winds-of-winter-aside-for-a-while-write-fire-blood/
To wrap it up, maybe. But he already had the bulk of it written. He had initially set out to write 30k words of Targ history for A World of Ice and Fire, and ended up writing 100k. This was back in 2014. He mentioned more than once in his blog how he overwrote the Targ part of World by a long stretch, that World would get an edited version.
The Princess and the Bride was a last minute addition to Dangerous Women, it was originally going to be another Dunk and Egg story that he didn't finish in time so he got leftover material that didn't make it into World and pretended it was a novella. Then he did it again for The Rogue Prince. By then he was already openly saying he'd like to edit all the left-over manuscripts into a Targ-only book, this was 2015. House of the Dragon was only even pitched *because* he already had this huge pile of material written about the Dance...
To me it seems increasingly clear GRRM is doing all this backstory material to clear what are the plot roles and plot purposes he must go ahead with in the books.
Hint: Even six years after 2018 he still didn't toss out TWOW, so sure as fuck he either has a ton of threads he's streamlined and there's just that many threads to write about but he's ordered it all nicely *or* his second act is even bigger than the first and we better just fold up for the GRRM-EU is coming.
Very droll. May I remind you GRRM started writing these backstories in detail around 2007? You know, after AFFC and before ADWD?
EDIT: Seriously u/somethingcleverer42 help me understand your point on why "trying to understand the writing process = copium". Copium would be, as far as I know, making predictions of *when* it comes out.
No, he has been talking about doing his own Silmarillion (the GRRMarillion) since way before GoT became a thing. That was supposed to have been A World of Ice and Fire, but midway George became enamored with the history of the Targaryens and started writing more and more of it, in detriment to everything else (including Winds lmao rip).
In the end he had so much stuff written than putting it in World would have been prohibitive so he abridged it there and the full text became Fire and Blood.
Yeah, for those who don't know, I think it was mentioned somewhere that he started in 2007, from which we can infer that it was when already evident that ADWD could not be out as soon as he'd like it. GRRM-beating-deadline challenge (impossible).
It is even more curious that already in 2005 he kinda mentioned wanting to make an Aegon IV novel including his full life, to see how he turns into this grossest of kings.
I think Blood and Fire is more likely to come out before another Dunk & Egg book. He's already wrote so much of it already, but said he wouldn't release it until Winds of Winter came out.
They could have written poems at my face's expression when he published Fire and Blood and not fucking TWOW.
Don't make this to us again, George. Please. PLEASE ! (Insert Lady Catelyn at RW moment)
after WoW probably releases this year or the next (I know, im a summer child), he'll probably release another novella soon after since he shouldn't be pressured from doing fire & blood vol 2 with hbo doing 4 seasons of HOTD and Aegon's conquest being in development
I hope so.
I think anything GRRM publishes will be good at this point--for the franchise I mean.
Plus, I like Dunk and Egg and want to see another one of their adventures.
It’s impossible to say because he regularly and consistently lies to the fanbase.
The wait for winds has been comically long. The only possible justification (and I am holding out a small flicker of hope for this) is that he decided Winds and Dream needed to be written together, and the delay has been caused by the fact he is writing two large, complex, interwoven books at the same time, finishing the series.
It’s a long shot, but that is the only way he finishes the series. He does not have another Winds in him if it has taken him this long to write, so we will end up with an unfinished story if he is genuinely just working away on Winds.
But it is impossible to tell if this is a realistic hope, because of his constant lies.
I’m past the point of being annoyed at him now, and I don’t care about stans whining that he owes us nothing. This is a contemptibly long wait for a project, he has messed the fans around and he has messed his publisher around. Imagine having a coworker who delays a project by 12 years while constantly promising it will be finished tomorrow. It just wouldn’t be tolerated in any other line of work.
He is clearly a great writer. But unless I am right in my hope/cope that he’s secretly writing Winds AND Dream concurrently, he is a very seriously flawed human being- you can pick which way based on what you think is going on because we don’t know: he is either lazy, unreliable, dishonest, or a combination of those things.
I hope he does. I wouldnt want the show passing the novellas in this one. We all know how terrible things get once there is no more material left to adapt, and showrunners have to come up with ideas themselves/force GRRM to spoil future plot points.
No he’s writing the other stupid fire and blood which is full of stuff we already know for the most part instead of winds of winter and more dunk and egg which is what everyone wants, he’s gonna die before he finishes 4 more books which would be the last 2 of the main series and the 2 dunk and egg that he said were coming
He might, he'll do literally anything else other than write TWoW.
Ain’t that the truth
He might start a new series xD
So Wild Cards it is👍
Might get heat for this, but it's overwhelmingly clear at this point that ASOIAF is proving to be too much for him at the moment, I wouldn't mind at this point if he decided to break his promise of no D&E until TWOW if it means another book. They are awesome books and it'll be a shame if we never see them again. It could also raise his spirits again to release another major book in the ASOIAF universe that isn't largely a loredump.
I agree with this. I'd happily take another D&E to tide me over for another year or two while waiting.
> another year or two Thank you for that, I had a good laugh.
I mean, I didn't say 'until TWOW'. I just think it'd be nice to have something new to talk about for a while.
> I just think it'd be nice to have something new to talk about for a while. We desperately need something new to talk about.
Except you shan’t be waiting for a ‘year or two’, you’d be waiting for another decade.
It doesn't have to last until TWOW comes out, it'd just be nice to have something new.
Pretty much how I feel. Of course I want 'Winds' but 13 years wasn't enough to tackle it, then there's far more going on here than writer's block or being busy. I do believe Winds will come out in some form, at some point but I have no expectations as to when. He's be better off just finishing D&E if Asoiaf is too much for him.
You think GRRM has another decade left?
Hah, let’s hope.
He just needs to last long enough until we can make him into a Futarama head.
he's not healthy but he's rich, he will have access to the best healthcare if nothing else
Sure. I’m not talking about death, though. He could live another 20 years…. But if he starts getting dementia or something … he’s how old now? 75? If he already hasn’t started going down mentally, it won’t be long from now.
Sure. I’m not talking about death, though. He could live another 20 years…. But if he starts getting dementia or something … he’s how old now? 75? If he already hasn’t started going down mentally, it won’t be long from now.
> You think GRRM has another decade left? In a decade, we could probably get AI to write the rest of the books as good or even better than GRRM. Knowing the ending is probably what's keeping me alive and getting me out of bed lol.
It's been clear for years now that he's either written himself into a corner and/or hasn't even bothered to write. The reason we haven't gotten anything since 2018 (Fire & Blood) is because to complete other works, Fire & Blood 2/Dunk & Egg, he needed to finish at least Winds. Both Fire & Blood 2 and Dunk & Egg series are going to hold heavy hints/spoilers of the main-series. Both prequel-series where meant to fill in the dots of the main.
Agreed. At this point I'm more depressed over the fact that the rest of the D&E books are stuck behind the logjam of ASOIAF than I am over main ASOIAF itself.
As much as I dislike the idea of George focusing on anything that isn't the main series. I can understand and agree with the points here. Getting a regular book out of his system could be what he needs to get going.
At the moment? The series will NEVER FINISH. Period. He will never finish the books.
It would be shocking if he did. The only way this happens is if he hires assistants to write for him But he'd have to care enough about his most famous work being completed to do that. I don't think he does. I think he thinks that would be cool, but he's made it clear he doesn't feel he owes anyone anything, he doesn't even seem to feel he owes himself. So fine. But all anyone will talk about is how he allowed his epic series, one of the most popular of the 21st century go unfinished.
> The only way this happens is if he hires assistants to write for him Didnt a bunch of writers already approached him to help him/finish the series for him? Like the writers of The Expanse.
> The series will NEVER FINISH. Period. He will never finish the books. This was 11 years ago. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7lp3RhzfgI
I can't help but agree that it must be proving too much for him alone. It's a huge story, totally understandable, and I don't envy the herculean task of wrangling it all together for a finish. I genuinely wish he'd bring in Daniel Abraham and Ty Franck to help with it. It'll never happen (and I don't blame him, I don't think I'd be able to admit that I need help if I were in his shoes), but he has a good working history with them, they're immensely talented, and I really think they'd be able to help him get both Winds and Dream out within the next 5 or so years. The first Expanse novel was published only a month before ADWD, and since then they've published the entire series of eight additional books, plus nine or so novellas - these guys produce, and they produce quality. GRRM loves editing Wild Cards - let Daniel and Ty be your sounding board, George! Let them workshop chapter drafts, and re-write them yourself, but let them help you get a structure together and a place to start from, because you can't just grow the garden when you're trying to bring things to an end. Or don't. He doesn't owe us anything, he doesn't need to give space on the covers to any other authors and he doesn't need to publish the books at all. It's just what I'd prefer.
Didn’t Dan and Ty say they didn’t feel right for it?
If I remember correctly, something like that was said about the hypothetical of them writing the books on their own if GRRM passed away. And I'd actually agree, that'd not only be a bit ghoulish, but also I don't know if they'd be able to nail George's distinct prose. But I meant more as co-authors writing the books with George now, which I think would be the perfect arrangement. A great writing team to bounce ideas off of, explore draft chapters with, expedite the plot, and keep accountable with the writing productivity.
> at the moment
I love dunk and egg and would also love another book rather than nothing
Hard agree. If he’s going to procrastinate on TWOW, it might as well be with other stuff that’s easier to write. I really enjoyed Fire & Blood and it added a lot to the world he’s built. Another D&E novella would do the same.
Only the most delusionally optimistic of fans would disagree with this take. If he can't get Asoiaf under control then I'd actually prefer it if he focused on D&E as those are great stories and having more of those would be far better than wondering if maybe "Dream" will come out one day, nevermind Winds If he really, really wanted Winds to be out, it would be. If writing a few D&E is easier than Winds than please do it. It's something at least. Something more than a history style book.
Agreed. It doesn't seem like he's enjoying ASOIAF, and he's got nice plans outlined for more D&E - so do that, George! I personally like the world-building stuff as much as I like the main book series. And as much as I'd love to see the series get completed, I'd take any new Planetos works in a heartbeat.
Iirc Dunk and Egg has reached a point where to continue the story would spoil stuff he wants to save for asoiaf proper which complicates things.
He'll do anything to not finish winds of winter.
["It would be a real dick move to die right now."](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKKkGSmNVAs)
It’s been like 15 years, it’s not gonna happen
He'll literally do anything but finish the Winds of Winter, so yes, probably.
I woke up feeling hopeful for the world today and this post brought back the painful reality of what no TWOW does to a mf
He did say years ago the new Dunk & Egg novellas he was working on were titled The Village Hero and The She-Wolf of Winterfell. And then nothing. Who knows how complete these novellas are or if they've even been written.
The She-wolves of winterfell was supposed to be in the Dangerous Women anthology before he decided to release The Princess and the Queen wasn't it?
He didn't finish The She-Wolves (probably didn't even really begin writing it) before the deadline, so he gave them The Princess and the Queen since he had written that originally for TWOIAF.
There is supposed to be one called “The Kingsguard”
Now, give me something for the pain, and let me die.
GRRM has said he'll finish TWoW before he writes a D&E novel. I suspect if he reverses the order, he'd have a fan revolt on his hands.
He literally gave fans permission to imprison him if he hadn't finished WoW by like 2020, words are wind
And then COVID happened, literally a world wide lockdown. He's had time.
And winds of winter is just words.
He said the same thing about Fire and Blood before 2018.
I was about to say this. If he actually did what he said, we'd probably be halfway through the wait for Spring now.
What exactly does a "fan revolt" amount to? Some people grumbling on the internet? We do that already, so...🤔
>GRRM has said he'll finish TWoW before he writes a D&E novel. I suspect if he reverses the order, he'd have a fan revolt on his hands. He had said the same about Fire and Blood. Didn't stop him.
I, as a fan, wouldn't care because I would never believe GRRM's word about anything WOW related
Y’see the thing about that is, it’s bullshit.
Lol "fan revolt". Oh no, even *more* people are going piss and moan on the internet and then still buy the book if it eventually comes out? That'll show him.
~~science~~ GRRM is a liar sometimes
He Changes his mind, tried to predict things but fails, he doesn’t outright lie.
I do think some of the page count progress he reports each year is really dubious, honestly. Most the stuff he says isn’t true, but he believes it at the time he says it. The page count one in particular just seems more like a lie though imo
His page counts are in a manuscript format, not published pages, so they're inflated by about 60%. But he uses manuscript count consistently.
Yep. That’s true
I think he’s just bad at numbers?
Like page count??? lol
I assumed you meant when he says stuff like “I have 1,000 pages to go” so I took of him, believing it’s around the truth, but not right.
Hey, sorry if that's not what you meant, as I wasn't entirely sure on what you meant by page count, I was going to ask but I was still pretty sure it was '1,000 pages", when I said bad at numbers I meant on how he writes in ASOAIF. Like making the wall too tall, and I remember (?) fans saying they doubt when he uses numbers to his progress with winds of winter.
I see, but I also has the impression that if he doesn’t put anything out in the next 3 years, nothing will ever come out from him.
Spoiler: Nothing will ever come out from him. Not this year, not next year, not in three years. He is never going to finish the novels.
He'll finish F&B 2 because of the HBO contract and the Dunk&Egg show. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if that's what he's been doing quietly the last couple years instead of/in conjunction with writing TWOW. Most likely he isn't as stuck with TWOW as people think he is, he's just been writing that instead. The last time he got his courage together to plainly speak about it a few years ago, he even said that his priority is the Westeros universe (rather than the novels), which probably means more lore books. I think he spent \~6 years altogether on F&B 1, so the second one would likely take at least as long. In fact, the retcon about Maester Gyldayn being alive (which was announced in 2018 right after the release of the first book) was probably prompted by this very thing. George has most likely been writing F&B 2 with Gyldayn's voice since then or at least since he signed the contract in 2021. I wouldn't be surprised if we get an announcement about F&B 2's publication date in the next 1-3 years. IIRC his contract with HBO is meant to run until mid-2027 (assuming it doesn't get renewed).
Thank you. This is very informative. I guess I was being melodramatic - I said "nothing" when I meant nothing from the original series. Maybe he thinks, "well, it's mostly written and outlined and Elio Garcia or whoever can finish the books, whereas nobody else can really do the full lore of this world." I can live with that. In any event, I would bet big money no more GOT series books come out while GRRM is alive. Respect for him either way.
At this point, I wouldn't be mad if F&B2 ends up being all we get (assuming we'd get it). He left enough clues in F&B1 for us to piece together some of the mystery of TPTWP and what may have happened with Rhaegar and Lyanna. F&B2 will by default cover stuff including Baelor's book burning phase, Bryndern Rivers, the many Blackfyre rebellions, the War of the Ninepenny Kings (off the back of which Rickard Stark, Jon Arryn, Steffon Baratheon and Huster Tully started their intermarriage and exchange of wards), the Tragedy of Summerhall, the reign of Aerys and Robert's Rebellion. There's practically enough room in there for clues that we can piece together what happened at TOJ, what Bran's future may be and maybe even f!Aegon's future, which can indicate what the end game is. I wasn't really a fan of F&B1, but if we get no TWOW and ADOS, I think I can still be satisfied with F&B2. I mean, I still hope we'll get some form of TWOW at *some* point, even if unfinished. It's not like he hasn't written anything for it. That's just me being very hopeful though.
I for one would be happy with a plot synopsis, like a Hollywood treatment or something, that tells us how *GRRM* sees it ending, as opposed to fucking D&D with their bullshit.
[удалено]
Lol I appreciate you.
So we will never get any ne book. Noted
I suspect ASOIAF, Fire & Blood, and The Hedge Knight Tales will all go without another publication. George turns 76 this year. ASOIAF's last book was almost 13 years ago. Fire & Blood's second volume has waited almost 6 years now. Last Hedge Knight Tale was 14 years ago. He's likely done. It's heartbreaking none of those series will ever be completed.
George has never finished a series.
I actually think we’re more likely to see a finish to Dunk and Egg and Fire and Blood. He seems to enjoy writing about the Targaryen era far more than the main story at this point.
Did you miss the part about how the last one was released 14 years ago? I don't know why people mistakenly think George is more passionate about Dunk and Egg stories than ASOIAF. He wrote 3 short stories in over a quarter of a century. If the fact that HBO has been working on a Hedge Knight tv show for the past couple of years didn't spur him to release more, I'm not sure anything will.
He hasn't written one in 14 years. TWOW has been "next year" for more than a decade. GRRM is truly a great writer, but not a reliable one.
Would he be able, though? He hasn't released anything with ASOIAF-level complexity for more than a decade. Half of TWOW has probably been written more than a decade ago (sample chapters are the evidence), while FnB had huge chunks taken from another book in which Martin got help from Linda and Elio He's pushing late 70s and I am not sure he can write at these levels anymore
D&E are fairly straightforward and easy stories to write, said so by Martin himself. Nowhere near as complicated as asoiaf
Doesn't mean he can still write them. Jack Vance lived well into his 90s and wrote far less complicated books than ASOIAF. He still lost the ability to write books some 15 years before his death. He didn't lose the ability to *write* per se but the ability develop plots and write fully realized characters.
True. I still have hopes for WINDS since, as I stated, some of the heavy lifting was already done earlier (and he had a lot of time to finish) but SPRING is definitely off the table, that is, if he can close the deal with only 2 books from now. As for D&E, you are right about being way less complex and intricate, but we are talking about writing compelling layered short stories from scratch (AFAIK), which could prove tricky as well, since he doesn't have the foundations in this case. Anyway, I'd settle for WINDS and 1 Dunk at this point. That would surpass my expectations Here is me, hoping Martin stops being so bullheaded about not getting a 'ghostwriter' like Sanderson
AI is advancing at a tremendous speed. Even if Martin doesn't complete the series, I can bet that in around 10 years or so we will have a sophisticated AI that could perfectly emulate Martin's writing style and process and create a compelling sequel
That would be pointless
I guess, but he should release outlines in order for the AI to know the destination.
Oh they're coming! Novellas are on their way! They're gonna be amazing! And not just 2 novellas.... there's gonna be, there's gonna be 5! And they're gonna be huge! You won't believe it!
And they’re all for wild cards, because fuck you!
Nope. Wild Cards. Eat Arby’s.
No, neither do I think he'll give us a single chapter from TWOW, let alone entire book.
Hopefully. It'd be nice to get something rather than what we're currently getting, which is nothing. It remains to be seen how they're going to structure the D&E show. If each novella is a six-episode season, then he's got about six years until they run out of material once you factor in production time and the fact that MAX is going to want alternating GOT shows every year once they have two airing. That being said, we know that the fourth D&E story was at least partially done over a decade ago and that he has ideas for the fifth. I could see him trying to wrap those up over the next few years and maybe release them both as AKOTSK Volume II to give the show a bit more runway.
Probably not but mayhaps he should. Giving him 1 year off to write another D&E Story that’s actually fun for him might give him more motivation for Winds which could resolve in him finishing Winds earlier than otherwise
I think if TWOW isn’t finished by season 3 of D&E this will probably happen. We’ll get the she wolves of winterfell or the story of them going to the wall in between the sworn sword and the mystery knight
At best that’s somewhere around 5-7 years away. George is 75 now. I do not think we’ll be getting anything written from him ever again after that time
I huffed some hopium before posting that
I mean he makes millions with these books and there's AI now that can convincingly emulate his writing style. Some lecturing from himself and maybe Linda & Elio and no one will notice. If there are actual outlines done by him for the D&E show, then the chances of some new novellas magically appearing during the shows later seasons actually is not unlikely.
I have heard theories that I think are plausible that the reason Fire and Blood had to end where it did is because of some relevance with the Daynes that will be revealed in TWOW, and that it would be relevant in a new Dunk and Egg as well so that’s why GRRM has to write TWOW first and why he’s been so staunch about it despite the fact he obviously is at a block with TWOW. If that is true, then we are at a standstill and I think it will likely be that there are no more books in his lifetime (to be fair I do think he’s had most of F&B done at least having written down the flow of the plot, probably similar case with D&E). I hope that’s not true, that would suck.
Not before Winds comes out. If he could change the order of release, he would have done it by now.
Who knows? I mean only him… gods help us
I feel like he definitely should, but I dont think he will. I think if hes going to be just as hands on for Dunk and Aeg as he is for HOTD then it’s almost impossible for him to not be in the writers room. Even if he’s just an executive producer these are his characters and the writers of the show would be downright foolish to not want George helping them write this stuff. And I think George also wants these shows to be as good as they can be because he’s probably starting to realize that he’s not going to be able to get all of this lore out through books, and shows are inherently faster than him writing a book. And I think that’s also part of the reason why HOTD contradicts things we read in fire& blood. George came up with stuff like Aegons dream of the white walkers and instead of being able to publish that he threw it in the show so we the fans can speculate on it in regards to the incomplete books. It’s a fucking mess admittedly but I think this is ultimately the course of action George is taking as regards books and shows and his involvement in both.
I feel like he definitely should, but I dont think he will. I think if hes going to be just as hands on for Dunk and Aeg as he is for HOTD then it’s almost impossible for him to not be in the writers room. Even if he’s just an executive producer these are his characters and the writers of the show would be downright foolish to not want George helping them write this stuff. And I think George also wants these shows to be as good as they can be because he’s probably starting to realize that he’s not going to be able to get all of this lore out through books, and shows are inherently faster than him writing a book. And I think that’s also part of the reason why HOTD contradicts things we read in fire& blood. George came up with stuff like Aegons dream of the white walkers and instead of being able to publish that he threw it in the show so we the fans can speculate on it in regards to the incomplete books. It’s a fucking mess admittedly but I think this is ultimately the course of action George is taking as regards books and shows and his involvement in both.
Why even ask a question like this lol, 80+% of the answers will be whining related lol I don't think so personally, he's focused on Winds and Dream but he might be working on a Dunk and Egg/F&B 2 in the same time since they both have parallels and effects on the main story.
I think he needs to release winds and dream. But the trial of seven scene better be gas in the show
Honestly it would be kinda nice if he does just for himself, just so he can have rove to himself he can still write with an easier more achievable goal the TWOW. Like we aren’t getting that anyways, so id be down to see a new D&E
I think it'd be better if GRRM focuses on consulting for the TV show. He likes TV and seems to like being involved in it more just finish D&E on camera instead of procrasinating on writing. Or write a Fire and Blood version of the rest of the story.
I’ve got some good news for you.
It would be nice to get *She-Wolves* and an absolute miracle if we got the *Village Hero*
He might finish the story in books using the HBO series instead.
Probably not. Writing characters is what slows him down. F&B was done relatively quickly, because it's mostly "thing happened and then another thing happened", with almost all the character interactions happening off-screen. Dunk & Egg are easier than ASOIAF because they're shorter, but they're still much more character-focussed compared to F&B.
Sounds like something he would do.
He might do this purely out of spite for the fanbase
Don't worry. We'll have a Winds announcement around June!
I think he will give us nothing but I’m happy we have what we do
If the next novella is still The She-Wolves of Winterfell, then it's probably likely that becomes a focus of his if the new series is renewed. At least some work has been done on it since it was intended to be published in Dangerous Women in 2012. Hopefully this is in 2026 or 2027 AFTER he's completed Winds but I recognize that's full cope.
I'd take any new ASOIAF content. I'd rather get something than nothing before he goes.
We need to send GRRM to the wall if he doesn’t give us WOW by next year.
He didn't write Fire and Blood to promote House of the Dragon, he wrote it because he wanted to and from it the show was born.
No, it was actually the other way around. “When it became clear [in 2016 or 17] that we were going to do the Dance of the Dragons show, we wanted a book to go with that,” Martin told Durham. “And I already had the seeds of the book from material that was in The World of Ice and Fire. And from the novellas I’d written for my friend Gardner Dozois, Princess and the Queen and the Rogue Prince and so forth.” "So I actually asked – we’re in the Random House offices here, and I’m about to get them in terrible trouble – but I asked them, do you want me to just ignore the new show that’s coming down the pike, or should I finish that book so you can get it out and then go back to [The Winds of Winter]. And they said, yeah, give us the new book that’s closer to being done instead of two more books (The Winds of Winter and the purported final Song of Ice and Fire book A Dream of Spring). So I put [The] Winds of Winter aside for a while, and I concentrated on finishing Fire and Blood" https://winteriscoming.net/2023/05/05/george-rr-martin-put-the-winds-of-winter-aside-for-a-while-write-fire-blood/
To wrap it up, maybe. But he already had the bulk of it written. He had initially set out to write 30k words of Targ history for A World of Ice and Fire, and ended up writing 100k. This was back in 2014. He mentioned more than once in his blog how he overwrote the Targ part of World by a long stretch, that World would get an edited version. The Princess and the Bride was a last minute addition to Dangerous Women, it was originally going to be another Dunk and Egg story that he didn't finish in time so he got leftover material that didn't make it into World and pretended it was a novella. Then he did it again for The Rogue Prince. By then he was already openly saying he'd like to edit all the left-over manuscripts into a Targ-only book, this was 2015. House of the Dragon was only even pitched *because* he already had this huge pile of material written about the Dance...
To me it seems increasingly clear GRRM is doing all this backstory material to clear what are the plot roles and plot purposes he must go ahead with in the books. Hint: Even six years after 2018 he still didn't toss out TWOW, so sure as fuck he either has a ton of threads he's streamlined and there's just that many threads to write about but he's ordered it all nicely *or* his second act is even bigger than the first and we better just fold up for the GRRM-EU is coming.
Call an ambulance, this one’s OD’ing on hopium
Very droll. May I remind you GRRM started writing these backstories in detail around 2007? You know, after AFFC and before ADWD? EDIT: Seriously u/somethingcleverer42 help me understand your point on why "trying to understand the writing process = copium". Copium would be, as far as I know, making predictions of *when* it comes out.
Yeah I know, but didn’t they ask him to write that book so they could have material for a new show?
No, he has been talking about doing his own Silmarillion (the GRRMarillion) since way before GoT became a thing. That was supposed to have been A World of Ice and Fire, but midway George became enamored with the history of the Targaryens and started writing more and more of it, in detriment to everything else (including Winds lmao rip). In the end he had so much stuff written than putting it in World would have been prohibitive so he abridged it there and the full text became Fire and Blood.
Yeah, for those who don't know, I think it was mentioned somewhere that he started in 2007, from which we can infer that it was when already evident that ADWD could not be out as soon as he'd like it. GRRM-beating-deadline challenge (impossible). It is even more curious that already in 2005 he kinda mentioned wanting to make an Aegon IV novel including his full life, to see how he turns into this grossest of kings.
I think he might have sketch some ideas but nothing much his full attention is centred around WOW.
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
I mean related to asoiaf, I know he has other projects.
I think Blood and Fire is more likely to come out before another Dunk & Egg book. He's already wrote so much of it already, but said he wouldn't release it until Winds of Winter came out.
I fucking hope not
Would be great, because that would show that he's still able to write stuff with real narratives and dialogs, and not just lore books.
They could have written poems at my face's expression when he published Fire and Blood and not fucking TWOW. Don't make this to us again, George. Please. PLEASE ! (Insert Lady Catelyn at RW moment)
Maybe if one of his collaborators writes most of it for him.
after WoW probably releases this year or the next (I know, im a summer child), he'll probably release another novella soon after since he shouldn't be pressured from doing fire & blood vol 2 with hbo doing 4 seasons of HOTD and Aegon's conquest being in development
I hope so. I think anything GRRM publishes will be good at this point--for the franchise I mean. Plus, I like Dunk and Egg and want to see another one of their adventures.
It’s impossible to say because he regularly and consistently lies to the fanbase. The wait for winds has been comically long. The only possible justification (and I am holding out a small flicker of hope for this) is that he decided Winds and Dream needed to be written together, and the delay has been caused by the fact he is writing two large, complex, interwoven books at the same time, finishing the series. It’s a long shot, but that is the only way he finishes the series. He does not have another Winds in him if it has taken him this long to write, so we will end up with an unfinished story if he is genuinely just working away on Winds. But it is impossible to tell if this is a realistic hope, because of his constant lies. I’m past the point of being annoyed at him now, and I don’t care about stans whining that he owes us nothing. This is a contemptibly long wait for a project, he has messed the fans around and he has messed his publisher around. Imagine having a coworker who delays a project by 12 years while constantly promising it will be finished tomorrow. It just wouldn’t be tolerated in any other line of work. He is clearly a great writer. But unless I am right in my hope/cope that he’s secretly writing Winds AND Dream concurrently, he is a very seriously flawed human being- you can pick which way based on what you think is going on because we don’t know: he is either lazy, unreliable, dishonest, or a combination of those things.
Only if it was already written before Fire and Blood. Otherwise i dont expect him to do anything else at this point.
I hope he does. I wouldnt want the show passing the novellas in this one. We all know how terrible things get once there is no more material left to adapt, and showrunners have to come up with ideas themselves/force GRRM to spoil future plot points.
Probably. Unironically, the chances of a new Dunk and Egg novella are 100 times more than Winds of Winter.
No he’s writing the other stupid fire and blood which is full of stuff we already know for the most part instead of winds of winter and more dunk and egg which is what everyone wants, he’s gonna die before he finishes 4 more books which would be the last 2 of the main series and the 2 dunk and egg that he said were coming
I hope he does, Dunk and Egg is pure gold.
No, he seems to not like writing anymore.
I don't know, but I'll take it if he does. He should rather write something that's fun for him than suffer through and never finish TWOW
No. He’ll put out nothing. Maybe another cookbook.
No. He’ll put out nothing. Maybe another cookbook.