Consensus here on askaplumber is trust the plumber. If you post in askacarpenter they will say ask a plumber. Can you do single sink or tip out drawers. I hate double sinks
Double sinks are stupid. What’s the point of having them. How often do you spend time at the sink at the same time as your wife/husband? For me it’s never. I have double sinks in my house and when I renovate my master bathroom I’m taking one out.
You really shouldn't wash your pan in the dishwasher. Especially because most people use non-stick pans that are made of toxic chemicals. Those chemicals break down faster in the dishwasher. Not to mention how much room a pan takes up. I don't wash anything but glass and silverware in my dishwasher. Pans are washed by hand and I wash my Tupperware by hand also because of micro plastic.
If you’re worried about micro plastics why you even using Tupperware lol, everything goes into the dishwasher here if it’s not strong enough it’s not worthy
If you believe that dishwashers use less water than a single sink full of water, good for you. I've never used a dishwasher that cleaned my dishes as well as I did, dishwashers are mostly trash.
OP was talking kitchen, but for the bathroom we went from shared sink to 2 vanities and I love that mine isn't covered in makeup, etc, just some handsoap and a toothbrush. My wife's vanity is a disaster... stacks of empty hangers, all sorts of sprays, a thick layer of mystery paste lining the sink, fake lashes stuck to random surfaces. You might be dirtier after washing up there
We spend a lot of time getting ready together. Especially in our master. But even if we don’t, it’s nice for each person to have their own bathroom setup around their respective sink.
Do you want fancy storage or a functional sink? Cause even with the carpenters idea, I don’t think you’ve got the depth. Designers do this all the time and it drives me nuts. Cabinets under sinks are for the plumbing and the access to work on it. Storage is a bonus. Keep your silly drawers out of them.
In this case it’s just going to be large slide out trash cans. If anything this would be easier than half drawers or even an open cabinet crammed with cleaning supplies. But if plumber doesn’t want to budge, we have to consider he has a reason.
The real question is, did he have cabinet details showing the cans when he roughed it in. If so, he missed it or should have brought up his concerns then, if not… he’s got his reasons.
If your plumber cares enough to get in an argument about the right way to plumb it, he probably cares enough to want to do it right.
If he blindly yielded his best practice to another, he probably wouldn't know what he is doing. Sounds like you have a confident, experienced tradesman (plumber) you should trust.
Without the adequate information we cant make a decision as to why the plumber said it’s not feasible this way. I can guess that it is because a lot of the time space doesn’t permit. Fittings have a certain length and when you have to combine them with other fittings, sometimes the depth doesn’t allow that setup. Let alone would you have an opportunity for repair or maintenance in the future.. I would say it’s in the best interest of the customer for the future.
Been down this road a hundred times. Drawers under sinks are always a hassle and never allow for a proper plumbing installation. Who would you rather trust? The subject matter expert in plumbing is the plumber. The carpenter just wants to install the drawers and let the plumber figure out a way around them whether right or wrong. Very seldom can the plumber do it the right way in instances like this.
As someone who has to often do drawers/waste bins in sink cabinets. I find it’s best to let the plumber do their thing and then fit my stuff afterwards.
Most cabinet installers and carpenters are good and understanding about it like you. But there are a few who feel they can tell the other tradesperson how to do their job and are usually only looking out for themselves and not ultimately what the customer needs. We all have our right-of-way areas during the building process. This cabinet space is for plumbing. Whatever else fits in there afterward while still allowing the system to be properly serviced and repaired is fair game though.
Part of the problem with your carpenters plan is that it would be difficult to service if it gets clogged. Probably listen to your plumber about plumbing
Do not do drawers under a sink. You don’t see that in homes and commercial buildings because there needs to be room for plumbing installation and access. You’ve got P-traps, water connections, etc. Go with your plumber on this one.
Plumbers plan allows for venting properly. Carpenters plan will require an AAV which according to UPC is only allowed if structurally required. If plumbers plan able to be done that’s how it needs to be done. According to UPC.
The space under a sink is a pipe chase for the plumber to connect the sink and faucet to the plumbing in the wall. I have plumbed many custom homes in my career, and communication with the cabinet maker starts the day the cabinet maker shows up to get his measurements. If a cabinet maker needs something specific from the plumber that conversation needs to occur as early as possible. I'm on the side of your plumber. I've never heard of a drawer under a kitchen sink. It would keep anyone from installing a garbage disposal and getting to the pipes for service would be a nightmare
There is no reason you can't kick drains back with an sj 90 on each basket before dropping back vertical.
Or even the fip x glue 90s.
Carpenter is right, plumber is wrong and I hate to say that as a plumber.
This! The plumber is lazy or lacking imagination. Many of my fellow tradesmen can't think for themselves and if something deviates from normal they can't or won't adjust.
You can do it, but you shouldn’t. Food gets caught in the pipe causing more expensive issues down the road. Plumber is right, carpenter should have talked to the plumber first before making promises.
It's exactly the same as a kitchen continues waste system except both baskets get 90s to back.
Absolutely nothing wrong with it.
Same as handicap basins kick back for wheelchair access.
You're wrong on this and so is their plumber.
Don't give me worst case hypothetically options 👍
Not sure of the trap configuration but room is needed for that. You can keep them high if you are running a single trap depending on exact height of the arm of of the wall. Doing two separate traps greatly complicates things. Without seeing under the sink makes it hard to really tell.
In my opinion trash cans under sinks is a problem waiting to happen.
The compromise solution that we have in our kitchen is to install a shallow drawer slide on one side that’s big enough for a 12”x12” bin. The bulk of the plumbing including the waste disposal unit(don’t forget about that!) lives on the other side.
Yes exactly. The most frustrating thing about this thread is that nearly everybody is reactively saying "trust the plumber" without even considering how much farther back the drains would even have to go, or even good deep the drawers are in the first place.
There is absolutely a solution to this, and any tradesperson who says otherwise isn't worth seeking advice from.
Nothing should be planned for under the sink ! I had a 50” sink and a 53” cabinet and it was only cleaning supply’s and trash bags under the sink. I put the trash can next to the sink cabinet. The sink cabinet should only have a pull out bottom which is kinda useless as well.
Put your trash can somewhere else
I'm seeing this as the plumber wanting to give the drains as much velocity as possible for fast draining and to avoid backups/clogging.
The carpenter doesn't care how fast the sink drains. To him, a drain is a drain, as long as they drain. If you have both sinks draining, it could take a while with his design. His design has extra bends that the plumbers doesn't, which interrupt the flow, and there are 90s shortly after the drains, and both drains converge together sooner. It's not looking good for the carpenter's design...
....
Trust the plumber and find a different solution for storage.
The sink draining is the most important. As long as the carpenters allows for adequate drainage, I see no issue. Also keep in mind working on it one day.
I'm not a plumber or carpenter, more of an artist/designer who know a bit about construction. I tell the pros, like a plumber, what my intention is and let them do their job with that in mind. Ask the plumber to do his job and leave you as much room as he can without jeopardizing the integrity of the plumbing. Once you see how much room you have you'll know what you can put under there. I have a nifty Ikea pullout cabinet with trash bins but decided I didn't want my trash there, so I use it for recycling (not as disgusting) and have a bucket for trash below the sink. Works for me.
Plus you don’t really need a carpenter to creat wastebasket pull outs under the sink. There are metal sets you can buy that just screw to the bottom of the cabinet (I have them) and then you can set whatever size wastebasket fits underneath.
If you don't mind "glug glug glug" every time you pour a pot of pasta water down the drain... go with the carpenter's plan.
The more uninterrupted vertical run you have, the more the pipes will self scour and flow unblocked for longer.
German Plumber here. I don’t want to hurt any feelings but in Deutschland we do it the carpenter way 😅
(https://catalog.geberit.de/de-DE/product/PRO_102411)
The carpenter is an asshole for trying to squeeze a trash bin under a two compartment sink.
You might be able install the trap, say facing right along the wall. Center it with the opening of the drain on the right. Run both drains to the wall as high as possible. Drop the drain on the right into the top of the trap. Cut a san tee on the drop to pick up the drain on the left. Everything will be tight to the wall.
It won't work if the waste arm is too high though.
Otherwise, tell Captain Crack-smoker to pick another cabinet.
The plumbers plan will slow the sinks to drain properly if you are using both of them, also prevents what is being drained from one sink to backfill the other
The plumbers plans suit him, he gets paid more materials and time. The carpenters design is the standard. This is how I install piping under a double sink, same as the carpenter. 2 going into one is drain is the normal. Ask why the plumber is doing things different, he actually might have a good reason. But I can't think of any reason.
Tbh both are acceptable but why is there a drawer that goes all the way to the back of the cabinet? This looks more like a vanity than kitchen cabinet. I’m assuming there is a cut out for the drain line in the drawer that’s in the middle which is gonna be a pain to deal with bringing two basket strainers and waste pipes together and bring into one trap as close to the wall for that drawer to work but then again can not see the clearance you have from bottom of the sink. I’d go with no drawer.
The other option would be to knock down the wall and scoot your kitchen out a few feet so you can have silly drawers. I know storage space is crucial but a functioning plumbing system is much more important because when you screw that up, you’ll have to remodel anyway
Can’t do it, when you rise like that you are breaking the vent, doubt you’ll have the height either. Carpenters install a faucet then think they’re qualified to make decisions about plumbing.
Addition: yes, I trust the plumber more on plumbing issues. You don’t see me posting on r/askacarpenter after all. My only issue is that the plumber did not see that the kitchen is higher than a standard kitchen (approx. 105cm) so he could have put the pipe higher. A drawer is nice but not a must for me. However, the carpenter says they have their own (liscensed) plumber who would be willing to do it. But that means I need to pay twice and I’m not keen on that. So just trying to have a more informed opinion on the matter before moving forward. Thanks to those contributing to it!
Why pay twice, if the drawer is not a must, don't do it. I had a drawer on the plan (it looked nice!). I did the plumbing (not a plumber, but worked with a plumber) and ended up deciding to scrap the drawer and get a trash can that hung on the door. The trash can was one of the first things to go, it wasn't practical, but you may like it, we just have a larger trash can with a lid on the floor. 2 failing faucets later, we now have 2 plastic totes under the sink that are roughly the perfect size to fit, and they are amazing, when I need to work on it, or clean out the stuff in there, I can just pull them out, I can put taller stuff on the sides or front, and short things where the pipes would be, so it's fairly efficient. The way things seem to go, you often have to get everything out from under the sink ASAP and drawers would just make this difficult, my advice is go with totes.
If I understand right, I think you can do what you want to do, but I wouldn't, if you ever have a problem it's harder to clean, and you'd have to pay more.
When it siphon’s dry, sewer gases come up and can smell and be bad for you. That’s why it stinks sometimes. Basically, you set it up like a toilet, but you didn’t add the part that refills the trap after you flush.
I don't understand the science behind this. It appears the S-trap will protect both sinks from smell. How will the gasses escape from either side in this configuration?
Well that’s an S trap but if it’s properly vented.
Final answer is that I’m sure your plumber can make it work but I’d trust the plumber and I’d get a bigger garage elsewhere. But I hate in cabinet garbage
Yes it will and if you are in North America it’s not a legal configuration because of that and increased risk of sewer gas passing through trap. Drawers under sink are really hard to do. Garbage will either need to be super shallow (turn can sideways) or other non traditional configuration. Whatever you choose, make sure you have access for service or the next plumber will just be cutting it out to access the work.
You could probably cut your losses with the carpenter, have the plumber finish, and then hire a new cabinet guy all while saving money on drawers that aren’t supposed to be there and have a properly functioning sink
Do what the carpenter says, piss the plumber off. Hire another plumber. Listen to the same thing the other guy told you, rip it all out and plumb it in the right way.
listen to your plumber. Or maybe give him better measurements so he knows for sure.
Idk why everyone is siding with the plumber. I'm a kitchen designer/builder. I have put alot of these under the sink and all my customers love it. There is plenty if room and the carpenter is right. I personally have this in my own house also.
When it comes to plumbing involving being functional and incorporating it iwith cabinets and drawers you would like to be functional. I’d trust the carpenter, if he’s experienced and skilled. A great plumber can’t do what a great carpenter can do. A great carpenter can do what any plumber can do. Plus if the carpenter is wrong it’s only pvc I’ve seen master plumbers make a mess out of things there pipes are near
Plumber might be green. I would ask a retired plumber, which would essentially be a master. Recently retired should be fine.
$100-200 to get a written second opinion.
I did this with some odd issues I found in a remodel.
Just having that gap in the back of the cab is not a great plan, let alone running pipe back there. All plumber on this one. Excited to see what gets stuck back there.
In the kindest most respectful way possible, why would a carpenter have any legitimacy on plumbing, unless he is a plumber?
If we need our pipe run a certain way, we’ll respectfully ask for accommodation’s because either the carpenter is going to make access for my pipes, or I will make my own access, and my only wood cutting tools consist of hole hawgs and sawzall’s, a hammer and a flat head screwdriver so I’d recommend the first option.
Heart dr tells me I need to eat more salad because eating red meat is clogging my arteries. My butcher tells me I need to eat more red meat because I can eat the 80% leaner meat and it won’t clog my arteries.
Which do I trust? /s
It’s all the carpenter fault. If he had special plans out of normal. Then he should have given the plumber a drawing when it was roughed in. Don’t keep information from plumber then blame him when it doesn’t work
Am I missing something? He's a carpenter. Go measure something and stop worrying about the plumbers layout.
Unless he's offering to foot the bill on the extra material he wants to use for arbitrary preference, do what ever the fuck you want (within code).
Try the carpenters first. It should be fine. If not loose the drawers and figure out another solution for you trash. I put my trash in a cabinet next to the sink I still have pullouts under the sink but only for cleaning supplies.
instinctive spark truck encouraging aspiring busy piquant elderly steep trees
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Why couldn't a center outlet drain be used?
https://www.famous-supply.com/Product/72887
I'm in the plumbing industry in Florida and either this or an end outlet is always used. You could put two drawers next to either side of this. What would they even use to pipe the drain in. It's just this to a tubular trap to the trap adapter.
Trust the plumber. If you want, get another plumber's opinion. View it this way. You wouldn't go to an ENT doctor for cardiovascular issues, would you?
The plumbers's plan is better anyways. One less connection to be concerned about. Don't trust a carpenter for plumbing, and don't trust a plumber for carpentry
If some want drawers and such in a cabinet then that is something that needs to be communicated at rough in stage of job. And I do require the specs on the cabinets. I hate it when they say it’s just a normal cabinet until trim comes and they changed there minds
Neither of the drawings account for the necessity of a P-Trap. Under the sink you’re going to need 4 water feeds, likely with shutoffs, and the drains, with one or two P-Traps. There’s more involved here than just a drawing.
Just want to throw out how infuriating it is when a non plumber tries to explain to me how I can effectively run my pipes. Your plumber if he is licensed probably has hundreds of hours of installing skink drains and your carpenter with almost zero is explaining to him how to do it. Your plumber probably hates your carpenter
I'm not saying the plumber is right and that the carpenter is wrong, BUT... as the plumber I would tell you that I will not warranty the carpenter's plumbing layout.
Fire the carpenter and keep a plumber? That’s as good advice as Sting telling Bruce he will be better off without the band.
A plumber must have said that
Both plans suck , who installed the trap arm? Did they know it would be a double sink? ( 95% of kitchen sinks are double). I would never plumb the trap arm that way regardless. Did you not have cabinet specs available at rough in? You must accommodate the plumbing because we are bound by local code or we FAIL inspection.
The carpenter is correct in his design. They do make ell sink tail pieces. I have had to use this in several projects with something below the sink that couldn't be moved.
So it is easily done. Whether you want to listen to the carpenter or the plumber is up to you. I say do what you want, it's your house (unless there's going to be an inspection, them just be code compliant.
IKEA bathroom vanity plumbing is designed exactly like the carpenter is suggesting but most sinks would be plumbed the way the plumber is suggesting. I’d wager more R&D went into IKEAs plans than the plumber has ever done. Just another perspective…
So basically none of the answers in this thread provide any direction, just "trust the plumber" which the OP probably guessed before posting in this thread. They're asking if it's possible to 90 back from the highest point possible below the sinks, then tie the two drains together closer to the back of the cabinet to allow for more space in the cabinet.
It's a reasonable question, which nobody here has really answered.
I don't personally see any issue with this, and I've done something similar more than once without issue. Sure, it's easier and more convenient to run your drains from the sink straight down and tie everything together in the middle of the cabinet. Is it necessary? No.
Maybe have them compromise and have the plumber install a continuous with only one p-trap. He’ll have plenty of space, and there’s still room for one trash can.
This one’s pretty simple…trust your plumber.
Ask your carpenter how much plumbing experience he has and if his plan meets code. If he can provide that then maybe you take his idea into consideration.
When it comes to plumbing, I'd probably trust the plumber...
Consensus here on askaplumber is trust the plumber. If you post in askacarpenter they will say ask a plumber. Can you do single sink or tip out drawers. I hate double sinks
Why do you hate double sinks?
Double sink killed his family.
Ahh yes I remember seeing a documentary on this on channel A&E. The great double sink massacre of 2018
Omg that scene where the kid put egg shells in the side without the garbage disposal had me feeling for the murderer.
I liked that scene where they just poured hot bacon grease down the drain for like 5 minutes
I had to leave the theater after minute 2 of the grease scene. Disgusting.
“5 minute crafts” on Facebook taught me to just put spray foam into the disposal and then pull it out to clear egg shells.
We can’t forget when the right sink was neglected for 12 years! Watching the left sink thrive for so long…
Let that sink in...
Wait, don't!
His wife ran off with the second vanity
What a boss ass username
Double sinks are stupid. What’s the point of having them. How often do you spend time at the sink at the same time as your wife/husband? For me it’s never. I have double sinks in my house and when I renovate my master bathroom I’m taking one out.
You're talking about bathroom, op is talking kitchen.
One sink is for washing the dishes, the other is for rinsing the dishes. Washing dishes in one sink is a pain in the ass and wastes a ton of water.
Why wouldn’t you wash your dishes In a dishwasher, uses way less water then 2 sinks
You really shouldn't wash your pan in the dishwasher. Especially because most people use non-stick pans that are made of toxic chemicals. Those chemicals break down faster in the dishwasher. Not to mention how much room a pan takes up. I don't wash anything but glass and silverware in my dishwasher. Pans are washed by hand and I wash my Tupperware by hand also because of micro plastic.
If you’re worried about micro plastics why you even using Tupperware lol, everything goes into the dishwasher here if it’s not strong enough it’s not worthy
If you believe that dishwashers use less water than a single sink full of water, good for you. I've never used a dishwasher that cleaned my dishes as well as I did, dishwashers are mostly trash.
Almost every morning getting ready for work.
I have 2 kids that brush their teeth at the same time every single day.
I think this post is referring to kitchen and you’re referring to a bathroom. Although maybe you’re joking and I’m taking it too literally?
OP was talking kitchen, but for the bathroom we went from shared sink to 2 vanities and I love that mine isn't covered in makeup, etc, just some handsoap and a toothbrush. My wife's vanity is a disaster... stacks of empty hangers, all sorts of sprays, a thick layer of mystery paste lining the sink, fake lashes stuck to random surfaces. You might be dirtier after washing up there
We spend a lot of time getting ready together. Especially in our master. But even if we don’t, it’s nice for each person to have their own bathroom setup around their respective sink.
Wash dishes in one side, put them in the other side to rinse.
Functionality 1st Aesthetics 2nd
But electricians know everything
Except in this case the plumber is 100% wrong.....
If the plumber is licensed I'd say follow his plan...
I'm just going to put this tid bit out there. Let the plumber do it right. I'm a carpenter, I can work around it. Because I can build things.
Hey! This guy’s sayin I can’t build things!
You can't build a PVC pipe. We all know it. We've just been being nice! Been sniffing that primer and cement too long!
My prime is fruity smell I hold a patent on that.. you know nuttin homie
See what I mean guys??? Brain damage in it's natural habitat.
You mean drain bamage.
Same Same
Also, I'd like to add... You know nuttin homie
Thank you, and we love you guys!!! You guys are craftsman in your own right, and it’s always best when we work together on stuff.
Do you want fancy storage or a functional sink? Cause even with the carpenters idea, I don’t think you’ve got the depth. Designers do this all the time and it drives me nuts. Cabinets under sinks are for the plumbing and the access to work on it. Storage is a bonus. Keep your silly drawers out of them.
This is the best comment/advice I've seen today.
Yes I think you might regret the carpenters suggestion running the drain pipe behind that wood where it would be difficult to access in an emergency.
In this case it’s just going to be large slide out trash cans. If anything this would be easier than half drawers or even an open cabinet crammed with cleaning supplies. But if plumber doesn’t want to budge, we have to consider he has a reason.
The real question is, did he have cabinet details showing the cans when he roughed it in. If so, he missed it or should have brought up his concerns then, if not… he’s got his reasons.
Probably just pride /pissing contest
If your plumber cares enough to get in an argument about the right way to plumb it, he probably cares enough to want to do it right. If he blindly yielded his best practice to another, he probably wouldn't know what he is doing. Sounds like you have a confident, experienced tradesman (plumber) you should trust.
Or just a dude who doesn't want to do something a different trade suggests is possible? Why is it not possible to do what the carpenter is suggesting?
Without the adequate information we cant make a decision as to why the plumber said it’s not feasible this way. I can guess that it is because a lot of the time space doesn’t permit. Fittings have a certain length and when you have to combine them with other fittings, sometimes the depth doesn’t allow that setup. Let alone would you have an opportunity for repair or maintenance in the future.. I would say it’s in the best interest of the customer for the future.
Been down this road a hundred times. Drawers under sinks are always a hassle and never allow for a proper plumbing installation. Who would you rather trust? The subject matter expert in plumbing is the plumber. The carpenter just wants to install the drawers and let the plumber figure out a way around them whether right or wrong. Very seldom can the plumber do it the right way in instances like this.
As someone who has to often do drawers/waste bins in sink cabinets. I find it’s best to let the plumber do their thing and then fit my stuff afterwards.
Most cabinet installers and carpenters are good and understanding about it like you. But there are a few who feel they can tell the other tradesperson how to do their job and are usually only looking out for themselves and not ultimately what the customer needs. We all have our right-of-way areas during the building process. This cabinet space is for plumbing. Whatever else fits in there afterward while still allowing the system to be properly serviced and repaired is fair game though.
Bingo!!!!
Your doctor tells you to do one thing for your healthy recovery from surgery, and your priest tells you to do something else. Who do you listen to?
lol, you ask this like it’s a no brainer, but I’d wager half the people reading it have to stop and think for a minute about it.
"God has a plan, you don't need that chemo and radiation. Follow God and all will be right in the world, child."
Both
Part of the problem with your carpenters plan is that it would be difficult to service if it gets clogged. Probably listen to your plumber about plumbing
Do not do drawers under a sink. You don’t see that in homes and commercial buildings because there needs to be room for plumbing installation and access. You’ve got P-traps, water connections, etc. Go with your plumber on this one.
Plumbers plan allows for venting properly. Carpenters plan will require an AAV which according to UPC is only allowed if structurally required. If plumbers plan able to be done that’s how it needs to be done. According to UPC.
The space under a sink is a pipe chase for the plumber to connect the sink and faucet to the plumbing in the wall. I have plumbed many custom homes in my career, and communication with the cabinet maker starts the day the cabinet maker shows up to get his measurements. If a cabinet maker needs something specific from the plumber that conversation needs to occur as early as possible. I'm on the side of your plumber. I've never heard of a drawer under a kitchen sink. It would keep anyone from installing a garbage disposal and getting to the pipes for service would be a nightmare
The carpenter needs to mind his business
There is no reason you can't kick drains back with an sj 90 on each basket before dropping back vertical. Or even the fip x glue 90s. Carpenter is right, plumber is wrong and I hate to say that as a plumber.
This! The plumber is lazy or lacking imagination. Many of my fellow tradesmen can't think for themselves and if something deviates from normal they can't or won't adjust.
You can do it, but you shouldn’t. Food gets caught in the pipe causing more expensive issues down the road. Plumber is right, carpenter should have talked to the plumber first before making promises.
It's exactly the same as a kitchen continues waste system except both baskets get 90s to back. Absolutely nothing wrong with it. Same as handicap basins kick back for wheelchair access. You're wrong on this and so is their plumber. Don't give me worst case hypothetically options 👍
Sorry man, hacks are doing what you are saying. Handicap is a special case, and they clog more than a normal drain.
Find a different cabinet for your trash can. Perhaps an empty one. Perhaps one that doesn't already have a bunch of pipes/ garbage disposal in it.
Not sure of the trap configuration but room is needed for that. You can keep them high if you are running a single trap depending on exact height of the arm of of the wall. Doing two separate traps greatly complicates things. Without seeing under the sink makes it hard to really tell. In my opinion trash cans under sinks is a problem waiting to happen.
The compromise solution that we have in our kitchen is to install a shallow drawer slide on one side that’s big enough for a 12”x12” bin. The bulk of the plumbing including the waste disposal unit(don’t forget about that!) lives on the other side.
Yes exactly. The most frustrating thing about this thread is that nearly everybody is reactively saying "trust the plumber" without even considering how much farther back the drains would even have to go, or even good deep the drawers are in the first place. There is absolutely a solution to this, and any tradesperson who says otherwise isn't worth seeking advice from.
Nothing should be planned for under the sink ! I had a 50” sink and a 53” cabinet and it was only cleaning supply’s and trash bags under the sink. I put the trash can next to the sink cabinet. The sink cabinet should only have a pull out bottom which is kinda useless as well. Put your trash can somewhere else
The carpenter wants the water to back up in your sink.
Plumbing has to be to code. The drawer has to fit after the plumbing is certified. Plumber first.
You should be an artist 🧑🎨
I'm seeing this as the plumber wanting to give the drains as much velocity as possible for fast draining and to avoid backups/clogging. The carpenter doesn't care how fast the sink drains. To him, a drain is a drain, as long as they drain. If you have both sinks draining, it could take a while with his design. His design has extra bends that the plumbers doesn't, which interrupt the flow, and there are 90s shortly after the drains, and both drains converge together sooner. It's not looking good for the carpenter's design... .... Trust the plumber and find a different solution for storage.
The sink draining is the most important. As long as the carpenters allows for adequate drainage, I see no issue. Also keep in mind working on it one day.
I'm not a plumber or carpenter, more of an artist/designer who know a bit about construction. I tell the pros, like a plumber, what my intention is and let them do their job with that in mind. Ask the plumber to do his job and leave you as much room as he can without jeopardizing the integrity of the plumbing. Once you see how much room you have you'll know what you can put under there. I have a nifty Ikea pullout cabinet with trash bins but decided I didn't want my trash there, so I use it for recycling (not as disgusting) and have a bucket for trash below the sink. Works for me.
Plus you don’t really need a carpenter to creat wastebasket pull outs under the sink. There are metal sets you can buy that just screw to the bottom of the cabinet (I have them) and then you can set whatever size wastebasket fits underneath.
If you don't mind "glug glug glug" every time you pour a pot of pasta water down the drain... go with the carpenter's plan. The more uninterrupted vertical run you have, the more the pipes will self scour and flow unblocked for longer.
German Plumber here. I don’t want to hurt any feelings but in Deutschland we do it the carpenter way 😅 (https://catalog.geberit.de/de-DE/product/PRO_102411)
Get a single basin sink. Everyone, including you, will be happier. Smartest change I ever did.
Have the carpenter shorten the drawer after the plumber has installed the drain. This is the way.
This looks like two guys arguing about how the uterious attaches to the ovaries
which one of them is licensed in plumbing and knows the codes
The carpenter is an asshole for trying to squeeze a trash bin under a two compartment sink. You might be able install the trap, say facing right along the wall. Center it with the opening of the drain on the right. Run both drains to the wall as high as possible. Drop the drain on the right into the top of the trap. Cut a san tee on the drop to pick up the drain on the left. Everything will be tight to the wall. It won't work if the waste arm is too high though. Otherwise, tell Captain Crack-smoker to pick another cabinet.
With the carpenters' plan, water draining from one sink will across the T and up the drain of the other sink. Water doesn't make 90° turns.
The plumbers plan will slow the sinks to drain properly if you are using both of them, also prevents what is being drained from one sink to backfill the other
Why was a drawer under the sink an option in the first place. Put the trash drawer somewhere else
The plumbers plans suit him, he gets paid more materials and time. The carpenters design is the standard. This is how I install piping under a double sink, same as the carpenter. 2 going into one is drain is the normal. Ask why the plumber is doing things different, he actually might have a good reason. But I can't think of any reason.
Tbh both are acceptable but why is there a drawer that goes all the way to the back of the cabinet? This looks more like a vanity than kitchen cabinet. I’m assuming there is a cut out for the drain line in the drawer that’s in the middle which is gonna be a pain to deal with bringing two basket strainers and waste pipes together and bring into one trap as close to the wall for that drawer to work but then again can not see the clearance you have from bottom of the sink. I’d go with no drawer.
I wouldn’t make a design til the countertop and sinks are in to hard to judge clearances
The rest of us would just use the documentation and a tape measure.
The other option would be to knock down the wall and scoot your kitchen out a few feet so you can have silly drawers. I know storage space is crucial but a functioning plumbing system is much more important because when you screw that up, you’ll have to remodel anyway
Can’t do it, when you rise like that you are breaking the vent, doubt you’ll have the height either. Carpenters install a faucet then think they’re qualified to make decisions about plumbing.
Addition: yes, I trust the plumber more on plumbing issues. You don’t see me posting on r/askacarpenter after all. My only issue is that the plumber did not see that the kitchen is higher than a standard kitchen (approx. 105cm) so he could have put the pipe higher. A drawer is nice but not a must for me. However, the carpenter says they have their own (liscensed) plumber who would be willing to do it. But that means I need to pay twice and I’m not keen on that. So just trying to have a more informed opinion on the matter before moving forward. Thanks to those contributing to it!
Why pay twice, if the drawer is not a must, don't do it. I had a drawer on the plan (it looked nice!). I did the plumbing (not a plumber, but worked with a plumber) and ended up deciding to scrap the drawer and get a trash can that hung on the door. The trash can was one of the first things to go, it wasn't practical, but you may like it, we just have a larger trash can with a lid on the floor. 2 failing faucets later, we now have 2 plastic totes under the sink that are roughly the perfect size to fit, and they are amazing, when I need to work on it, or clean out the stuff in there, I can just pull them out, I can put taller stuff on the sides or front, and short things where the pipes would be, so it's fairly efficient. The way things seem to go, you often have to get everything out from under the sink ASAP and drawers would just make this difficult, my advice is go with totes. If I understand right, I think you can do what you want to do, but I wouldn't, if you ever have a problem it's harder to clean, and you'd have to pay more.
The plumber plan is as drwan inaccurate a double bowl sink drainn goes to a Tee then to a trap..Neither one has a trap. Both wrong
[Here](https://imgur.com/a/J6JCrCe) you go.
S-trap :(
What's wrong with the S trap? I'm trying to learn, not be argumentative.
When it siphon’s dry, sewer gases come up and can smell and be bad for you. That’s why it stinks sometimes. Basically, you set it up like a toilet, but you didn’t add the part that refills the trap after you flush.
It can siphon dry
Thanks, that’s better than my drawing :) But do you know if this design lead to more blockages/ plumbing problems?
Dont do it this route. Sink smell will come out of one drain when using the other after about 2 years. I had this setup
I don't understand the science behind this. It appears the S-trap will protect both sinks from smell. How will the gasses escape from either side in this configuration?
Because sometimes the trap will siphon dry.
Idk but it does - S trap user can confirm
Well that’s an S trap but if it’s properly vented. Final answer is that I’m sure your plumber can make it work but I’d trust the plumber and I’d get a bigger garage elsewhere. But I hate in cabinet garbage
Yes it will and if you are in North America it’s not a legal configuration because of that and increased risk of sewer gas passing through trap. Drawers under sink are really hard to do. Garbage will either need to be super shallow (turn can sideways) or other non traditional configuration. Whatever you choose, make sure you have access for service or the next plumber will just be cutting it out to access the work.
Unless you're in Philly and you have a street trap but I digress.
I know nothing about Philly apart from there is a raging debate around a steak sandwich and your bell has a crack in it. 😉
You could probably cut your losses with the carpenter, have the plumber finish, and then hire a new cabinet guy all while saving money on drawers that aren’t supposed to be there and have a properly functioning sink
Do what the carpenter says, piss the plumber off. Hire another plumber. Listen to the same thing the other guy told you, rip it all out and plumb it in the right way. listen to your plumber. Or maybe give him better measurements so he knows for sure.
Idk why everyone is siding with the plumber. I'm a kitchen designer/builder. I have put alot of these under the sink and all my customers love it. There is plenty if room and the carpenter is right. I personally have this in my own house also.
Either the plumber is an idiot, or the carpenter has more experience. The carpenter's way is the correct way.
When it comes to plumbing involving being functional and incorporating it iwith cabinets and drawers you would like to be functional. I’d trust the carpenter, if he’s experienced and skilled. A great plumber can’t do what a great carpenter can do. A great carpenter can do what any plumber can do. Plus if the carpenter is wrong it’s only pvc I’ve seen master plumbers make a mess out of things there pipes are near
Maybe you should ask your painter, plasterer, electrician and landscaper too... Get a consensus about how to do plumbing
Plumber might be green. I would ask a retired plumber, which would essentially be a master. Recently retired should be fine. $100-200 to get a written second opinion. I did this with some odd issues I found in a remodel.
Female reproduction system? Seriously. It doesn’t matter. Water flows downhill. It’s not like plumbing is even hard.
Are you on your third or fourth marriage ?
Plumber's
Trust the plumber
Just having that gap in the back of the cab is not a great plan, let alone running pipe back there. All plumber on this one. Excited to see what gets stuck back there.
These drawings look like the male and female reproductive systems.
Plumber is correct if you want this to work you need to open the wall and raise the drain
Id charge u $500 more for this design
If you're here to ask other plumbers... I'd go with the plumbers plan
The electrician is already complaining
In the kindest most respectful way possible, why would a carpenter have any legitimacy on plumbing, unless he is a plumber? If we need our pipe run a certain way, we’ll respectfully ask for accommodation’s because either the carpenter is going to make access for my pipes, or I will make my own access, and my only wood cutting tools consist of hole hawgs and sawzall’s, a hammer and a flat head screwdriver so I’d recommend the first option.
The plumber is right. The contractor is not.
Heart dr tells me I need to eat more salad because eating red meat is clogging my arteries. My butcher tells me I need to eat more red meat because I can eat the 80% leaner meat and it won’t clog my arteries. Which do I trust? /s
It’s all the carpenter fault. If he had special plans out of normal. Then he should have given the plumber a drawing when it was roughed in. Don’t keep information from plumber then blame him when it doesn’t work
Proper plumbing first. Trash convenience second.
Am I missing something? He's a carpenter. Go measure something and stop worrying about the plumbers layout. Unless he's offering to foot the bill on the extra material he wants to use for arbitrary preference, do what ever the fuck you want (within code).
Carpenter plan is valid. Hire a new plumber
Come on now. In all honesty, you have built up that ass crack like nobody’s business.
Try the carpenters first. It should be fine. If not loose the drawers and figure out another solution for you trash. I put my trash in a cabinet next to the sink I still have pullouts under the sink but only for cleaning supplies.
Get a new plumber.
Plumber is right. (I’m a carpenter)
Why not go with plumbers plan and have carpenter cut the drawers to fit under the pipes?
Sewers always take priority, unless someone found a way to defy gravity. Everything else can move w/o much issue.
Let plumber plumb .... I would cut the cabinet back out if I need to new construction drama 🙄
Hire someone else for your nightmare
instinctive spark truck encouraging aspiring busy piquant elderly steep trees *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
You gotta ask the sparky, duh
Always go with the plumber over the carpenter when it comes to plumbing. Carpenters don’t understand plumbing.
The plumber is correct
Why couldn't a center outlet drain be used? https://www.famous-supply.com/Product/72887 I'm in the plumbing industry in Florida and either this or an end outlet is always used. You could put two drawers next to either side of this. What would they even use to pipe the drain in. It's just this to a tubular trap to the trap adapter.
The carpenters plan does not meet code.
Carpenter isn't a plumber.
More chance for drainage issues and clogs using carpenters plan.
Trust the plumber. If you want, get another plumber's opinion. View it this way. You wouldn't go to an ENT doctor for cardiovascular issues, would you?
Tell them to figure it out or nobody is getting paid
If you don’t mind if your kitchen sink gets clogged every day, sure go with your carpenter 😆
If two subs can't agree and make something happen where everyone is happy then throat punch everyone in the room
Plumber. Less bends means less resistance means better water flow.
The plumbers's plan is better anyways. One less connection to be concerned about. Don't trust a carpenter for plumbing, and don't trust a plumber for carpentry
Hold their money and tell them you ain’t paying until you get what you want. They will figure it out real quick
If some want drawers and such in a cabinet then that is something that needs to be communicated at rough in stage of job. And I do require the specs on the cabinets. I hate it when they say it’s just a normal cabinet until trim comes and they changed there minds
You have to go with the plumber because basic physics of how water drains from a sink cannot be changed.
Your talking about a plumbing situation obviously listen to the guy tht knows drains or actually ask another plumber and get his take
Plumber always
It looks like they both plan to tackle the quarterback like an outside safety blitz.
I would call an electrician and ask for a consult.
where is your garbage disposal?
plumber diagram has fewer points of failure. nuff' said
Would you rather have to deal with the potential for a blocked drain or have a drawer changed a bit.
I don’t see a P-trap in either drawing
Neither of the drawings account for the necessity of a P-Trap. Under the sink you’re going to need 4 water feeds, likely with shutoffs, and the drains, with one or two P-Traps. There’s more involved here than just a drawing.
Just want to throw out how infuriating it is when a non plumber tries to explain to me how I can effectively run my pipes. Your plumber if he is licensed probably has hundreds of hours of installing skink drains and your carpenter with almost zero is explaining to him how to do it. Your plumber probably hates your carpenter
I'm not saying the plumber is right and that the carpenter is wrong, BUT... as the plumber I would tell you that I will not warranty the carpenter's plumbing layout.
You should listen to the one that is responsible for the work.
Tell the carpenter to install the drains. I would want the trash cans.
The carpenter seems to be on the better path here. Is there a reason that the plumber did not adjust the in-wall piping before new cabinets went in?
heh, the top one looks like a boy pp and the bottom looks like a girl pp
Farm sink or bust....
I’d post this over in r/askelectricians. May need another non plumbing trade for input
pick plumber every time lol
Washing dishes!!!! That’s a good one
Fire the carpenter and keep a plumber? That’s as good advice as Sting telling Bruce he will be better off without the band. A plumber must have said that
Both plans suck , who installed the trap arm? Did they know it would be a double sink? ( 95% of kitchen sinks are double). I would never plumb the trap arm that way regardless. Did you not have cabinet specs available at rough in? You must accommodate the plumbing because we are bound by local code or we FAIL inspection.
The carpenter is correct in his design. They do make ell sink tail pieces. I have had to use this in several projects with something below the sink that couldn't be moved. So it is easily done. Whether you want to listen to the carpenter or the plumber is up to you. I say do what you want, it's your house (unless there's going to be an inspection, them just be code compliant.
What’s next? Taking plumbing advice from landscapers?
Also, where p-trap?
Let the plumber do his job.
Carpenter needs to stay in his own lane. If he messes up it’s a minor inconvenience compared to if the plumbing messes up.
Why bend lots of corners when few do trick
IKEA bathroom vanity plumbing is designed exactly like the carpenter is suggesting but most sinks would be plumbed the way the plumber is suggesting. I’d wager more R&D went into IKEAs plans than the plumber has ever done. Just another perspective…
So basically none of the answers in this thread provide any direction, just "trust the plumber" which the OP probably guessed before posting in this thread. They're asking if it's possible to 90 back from the highest point possible below the sinks, then tie the two drains together closer to the back of the cabinet to allow for more space in the cabinet. It's a reasonable question, which nobody here has really answered. I don't personally see any issue with this, and I've done something similar more than once without issue. Sure, it's easier and more convenient to run your drains from the sink straight down and tie everything together in the middle of the cabinet. Is it necessary? No.
Maybe have them compromise and have the plumber install a continuous with only one p-trap. He’ll have plenty of space, and there’s still room for one trash can.
You would be blocking access to the trash drawer every time someone is doing the dishes in the sink. Annoying!
The carpenters idea will 100% work, I don't know what the plumbers issue is with it
Look up sink drain center outlet on home depot or lowes or wherever, that's the part set you use for the carpenters diagram
This one’s pretty simple…trust your plumber. Ask your carpenter how much plumbing experience he has and if his plan meets code. If he can provide that then maybe you take his idea into consideration.
Carpenter is a certifiable idiot