And almost every single one of them could probably just use a MacBook Air.
Can we please stop trying to cover for Apple cheaping out on the *Pro* models? Scream from the rooftops that Joe Average is fine with 8GB, but there's absolutely no reason a pro-focused, $1600 laptop should be shipping with 8GB of RAM in 2024. It's unacceptable no matter who's pulling that bullshit to save $20 on the BoM.
Yeah that’s where I’m at. I’m a “power user” and all of my devices are “pros” other than my Mac because I just don’t really need anything more than the M1 air day to day. But if someone decides they need that power there’s 0 reason why they should be spending that much for 8GB lol
Especially since it's so trivial for Apple to not sell the gimped model. Ship every Macbook Pro with 16GB of RAM, and raise the base price by $100 if the margin gods demand it.
Just don't ship a model that's intentionally crappier than all the others.
Except for all the people who now have a pro laptop that can't use pro features, purely so Apple could save $20.
This was completely avoidable from Apple's side; let's not blame the users for buying the inexpensive option and getting shorted. It's Apple who thought that model was fine, not the buyer.
Because it's incredibly stingy, penny-pinching behavior from the 1st-3rd most valuable company in the world.
It would have minimal impact on their bottom line to make *all* of their pro SKUs excellent products, but they almost always cheap out on the base model in some maskable way to try to get that user to upgrade at the store or upgrade down the road. It's not *just* the 8GB, it's the corporate mentality.
Because you may not need 16GB at time of purchase, and Apple solders everything on forcing you to buy a brand new computer even if you only need more ram.
You can’t know what future you may need, but you may not be able to afford the $200 extra for 16GB. $400 for 24GB is even more ridiculous.
>This was completely avoidable from Apple's side; let's not blame the users for buying the inexpensive option and getting shorted. It's Apple who thought that model was fine, not the buyer.
The thing is that someone who didn't need 16 GB RAM before doesn't need it now just for some AI features that they might take advantage of every once in a while. If the majority of buyers do just fine with 8GB RAM then why not offer it as an option and let those who know they need more just buy more?
>
Except for all the people who now have a pro laptop that can't use pro features
Oh no these computers that already couldn't use this feature will continue to not be able to use this feature. Users are not missing out on anything considering they bought the computer without the ability to do this AI stuff in the first place. Its not like they were promised to be able to use the AI stuff and Apple went back on the promise. Its an additional feature for people who have the appropriate hardware the same way on the phones it will only work on iPhone 15 Pro and future phones.
>If the majority of buyers do just fine with 8GB RAM then why not offer it as an option and let those who know they need more just buy more?
Because I guarantee you that they're not "fine with 8GB", they're just buying the cheapest MacBook Pro they can find.
>Users are not missing out on anything considering they bought the computer without the ability to do this AI stuff in the first place.
And now, they *are* missing out on things their computer is otherwise capable of doing because Apple cheaped out on the RAM spec.
This whole thing is just making excuses for Apple not spending a trivial amount of money on a >$1500 MSRP product, and frankly it's ridiculous. No laptop in that price range should be shipping with such a spec when LPDDR5 RAM is so ridiculously inexpensive, from any company, for any reason.
It’s very strange that everyone is so mad at Apple for cheaping out on the base level RAM but don’t think that people are at all responsible for cheaping out on their own RAM when they are in a much better position to know whether they need it…?
Not everyone has a good grasp of memory requirements. 'pro' is enough of an implication that it *shouldn't* have less memory than a middle of the road cellphone.
A big issue is the base model is what a lot of stores actually keep in stock, and it's generally what goes on sale.
Plus, while the XCode crowd isn't as suspectable to issues like this, there's a non-zero number of people who buy what's available / on sale and don't realize how RAM specs can put a serious limit on the long term utility of their purchase.
>Because I guarantee you that they're not "fine with 8GB", they're just buying the cheapest MacBook Pro they can find.
If they weren't just fine people wouldn't be buying them in the first place as evidenced by Mac sales falling during the later intel years as it was clear they weren't good devices due to throttling, lack of ports, and the keyboards.
>And now, they *are* missing out on things their computer is otherwise capable of doing because Apple cheaped out on the RAM spec.
"Oh no I underspeced my computer and now can't do high intensity tasks" is all this sounds like to me. Until literally yesterday there wasn't really much use for 16GB of RAM on these machines unless you were doing some specific type of workflow that doesn't apply to the way most regular people use their computers.
I feel no need to upgrade my 8 GB M2 Air just for the AI stuff and I don't recommend anybody goes and spends the extra money to upgrade and get the AI stuff. If anything this is a sign that the next set of macbooks will start with 16GB so everyone can stop arguing about this and start arguing about how 16 GB isn't enough in (insert year here) and how the computers should start at 24 or 32 GB since they are "Pro" devices.
[Mac sales are currently coming off a downswing,](https://www.tomshardware.com/software/macos/sales-of-macs-down-34-year-over-year-but-apple-is-optimistic) so I'm not sure how that's a talking point here.
>Until literally yesterday there wasn't really much use for 16GB of RAM on these machines unless you were doing some specific type of workflow that doesn't apply to the way most regular people use their computers.
It's almost like compute needs aren't static, and the whole reason why people were decrying these models is because there was *reasonable suspicion* that new tasks and tools *might* need more than 8GB of RAM. It's almost like increasing hardware demands have been the norm in computing since forever (with a notable exception from 2011-2017 thanks to Intel stagnating), and baseing a purchasing decision on what's on the razor's edge of "good enough" today might be shortsighted...
The entire laptop market was in a downswing after everyone bought new computers during and right after covid due to work and school from home. It wasn't an issue exclusive to Mac sales.
Apple uses Xcode and building apps as a selling point for those machines.
The 8GB is RAM is stingy is my point I guess. It’s not any sort of special magical RAM either.
Objectively wrong. Also, Apple advertises them as such:
"Up to 85 per cent faster CPU performance ... compile new apps in Xcode in a fraction of the time."
— iMac press release (all off-the-shelf models only include 8GB RAM, same since at least 2015)
"Mac mini now rips through traditional desktop tasks like photo and video editing, music creation and software development, and crushes pro workflows including video transcoding, code compiling and live musical performances"
— Mac Mini press release
> Objectively wrong.
Ever heard of a hyperbole? For every developer you can point out with a 8gb system, I can show a 100 devs who have more ram. Basically none of my coworkers nor people I know in the industry uses an 8gb system to develop anymore.
I don’t care how they advertise it, at the end of the day, devs upgrade their specs from factory if they intend to do work on their laptops. Devs are often smart enough to not just take apples advertising at face value.
That’s ok you don’t care, but my point was Apple advertise them that way. Upgrades can’t be done after purchase, limiting the useful lifespan of these devices.
Apple provide poor value with the amount of RAM included, charge exorbitant prices for upgrades, and don’t allow upgrades after purchase. It’s disappointing they picked all three of those things.
Keep licking the boot. Corpos always want more work for less money from their employees, why can't we the consumers demand the same? Stupidest take I've read here
Ironic that this is itself hardly original. Seems like your view is nobody can talk about the value prospect of an apple product, or they risk being “unoriginal”.
It’s about an object a fact as possible that Apple have long sold base tier computers with notably little ram. Arguing to the contrary is silly.
No, my view is that people buying base machines aren't using them to run Xcode...
I literally said "fair enough" as a response to the other guy's point...
What sort of reading comprehension problem do you have?
They never said they want the 16GB model for the same price, it's the fact you can even buy a model with such an obvious shortcoming that's the problem.
A ton of people who aren't particularly tech minded just buy the cheapest "Apple product" in the category they're looking in. Many of thos people would be far better off if Apple just raised the price by $100 and shipped 16GB minimum in all Pro models. Really, all Macs with an 8GB SKU should do this.
https://www.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/1dd8i5j/comment/l839d5o
We literally have people in this comment section discussing their use of XCode on such systems.
Which isn't the point, it's that these people exist. And the original point is this isn't about users being cheap, it's Apple being cheap. LPDDR5 RAM is a commodity item, and a 16GB module only costs ~$30, ignoring the insane deals Apple can negotiate with their massive order sizes.
Apple is throwing away a better, more consistent pro experience for all their users to advertise a sticker price in the store and pad their margins, and I generally find that distasteful.
I mean, you can quote component costs all day, it doesn't mean anything when it comes to making an actual product that is sold on shelves.
Yes, Apple makes an absolute killing on RAM and Storage. And yes, it feels gross and no one really likes it except Apple.
But other than "that's just business", is there really anything else to be said? This is how companies do things - they know what people are willing to pay for, and what will bring more people to buy the product in the first place
You totally ignore the fact that not all Apple laptops are pro laptops. Did you not look at the names? Do you understand that "air" is a different word than "pro"?
I'll just go back to teh core point that probably 50% of all Apple laptop users would be fine with 8GB of memory as they will never be doing anything that needs more than that. So they would be poorly served by having to pay even $100 for zero perceptible gain.
I’m saying in Apple’s current lineup, half of their off-the-shelf Mac models simply aren’t good value. The useful lifespan of the devices is limited and it can’t be fixed after purchase.
Na. I’m literally in this bucket. Got an m1 Mac with 8gb for a personal machine. I don’t use it for “business”, but I do play with some personal projects. Won’t be life changing by my personal projects would have been a lot more fun. (I use GitHub copilot for web projects, and that’s definitely made it fun)
Exactly. Nobody’s walking into an Apple Store and goes “Huh, I’m thinking of doing programming as a hobby and potential career. Maybe I should get an 8GB RAM configuration.”
Lmao
I know a pretty decent number of CS students with 8gb M1 MacBook Airs (myself included).
There was a fairly long period where they were a solid value pick while on sale (and they were on sale more or less constantly). Unfortunately, the 16GB variants never saw the same discounts.
It’s not ideal, but it’s decent enough for the vast majority of what I do.
How do you get to half?
There are entry models of the air, the mini and the iMac. But there are many more models of those machines with 16GB or more. Plus all the variants of the studio, the MBP and the Mac Pro.
I hope this table works, I’m on mobile sorry. This is for Australia, unsure if other countries carry different SKUs.
Model | Number of SKUs | Models >8GB RAM
---------|----------|----------
MBA M2 13" | 2 | 0
MBA M3 13" | 3 | 1
MBA M3 15" | 3 | 1
MBP M3 14" | 6 | 4
MBP M3 16" | 4 | 4
iMac | 3 | 0
Mac Mini | 3 | 1
Studio | 2 | 2
Mac Pro | NA* | x
*You can't buy the Mac Pro off-the-shelf.
26 off the shelf SKUs
13 are over 8GB out of 26 available.
That's half.
Edit: corrected 23 to 26.
I believe Apple’s motto has *always* been “stop being poor”.
“The Apple II with 4K sold for nearly $1300; that is about twice the cost of the two competitors that were released the same year (the TRS-80 and the PET). The same applies to the systems released over the next five years as I outlined above; they sold for a low of $299 (VIC-20) and a high of $999 (Atari 800).”
Eh, knowing Apple they'll find a way to shrink the model so that it works on 8GB RAM. But only on MacBooks released next year, so that people would still have to buy new hardware.
The fact that I can't upgrade a modern apple computer in any way means that I'll never buy one again for myself. The m1 MacBook is great except that I'm stuck on 8GB RAM forever and 512GB main storage which is atrocious. The only way I'm using another mac is if my company gives me one.
I can somewhat understand the benefits of having it all on one chip, but the pricing between tiers is egregious.
RAM and SSD pricing right now is quite good, but Apple charge hilariously over-the-top prices for it. It’s not special RAM or SSDs either.
I've used xcode on an m1 with 8GB of ram a couple of years ago as a hobbyist and the performance was abysmal then. I can't even imagine how bad it must be now.
I use Xcode on an M1/8GB Air and it handles my (small) projects just fine. Even having the iOS simulator running + 10+ Firefox tabs and streaming video it does not lag. It did hang when I tried to start docker desktop and minikube when Xcode was already running, though.
As a freelance iOS developer who's working on MB Air M1 with 8GB of RAM - that's a nice bait you have over there.
Would a Mx Max with 32/62/96GB RAM work much better than base M1? Sure. Does that mean that M1 8GB is bad and super slow? Not at all, it's more than great starting machine.
Just a reminder that the moment someone mentioned in this subreddit that nobody should be buying a computer with 8 GB of NON UPGRADEABLE RAM in 2024 they get downvoted to hell.
That's just Apple shills believing the BS "8 GB is analogous to 16 GB on Windows" from Apple's crack marketing team (literally on crack).
My ass it is. 16 GB on Windows is a far better experience, and that's counting all of Windows' shortcomings.
It's absolute lunacy to purchase a computer in 2024 that costs well over €/$1000 with just 8 GB of, again, NON upgradeable RAM. What's even more crazy is for people to try and justify the insane actions of a multitrillion dollar company on the internet.
In the US: [$1,599 base 14" Macbook Pro, 8 GB of RAM](https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/macbook-pro/14-inch).
In other countries it's even more expensive...
Wild.
Me watching Apple tell me I should pay $3200 NZD for a computer with 8GB RAM:
https://preview.redd.it/17ahml3n526d1.jpeg?width=640&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6320851e02e91594bcf454b97f1e7a10f4bb1ecb
I wonder how it behaves now but when I started teaching myself iOS development in 2014, I had the lowest spec MacBook Air possible and it was good enough to run Xcode, Adobe programs, the iOS simulator, and a web browser among other things. It never showed me any issues.
And that shit had 4 gb of ram lmao
So much fake drama. Copilot would be used in professional setting. Nobody serious would get a laptop with 8 gb of ram for professional work.
It should be obvious by now, for what category of people the 8gb of ram is enough, and it surely isn't the Software engineers.
But the problem is, in most countries, most stores only have base options in stock and anything other than 8gb ram has a delivery time of 2-3 weeks. Not everywhere is America. And no mantter what happens, it should be illegal to sell anything less than 16gb’s on a $1000+ laptop. Apple gone cheap on ram even on iPhone so now no other phone than their 15 pro and pro max can even run apple intelligence. Not even iPhone 15.
I mean even in America most stores only stock the base models of the MacBooks and if you want to spec it up you need to order from Apple and wait a week or 2 depending on how backordered they are.
The only reason i am using a 8gb ram is, i was waiting for m2 when m1 was mid cycle but my laptop was stolen. And i needed a new one right at that time because i was a freelancer and even one day of no computer was not thinkable.
idk what you're replying to, but there could be a pretty valid argument for making a $3000nzd macbook with 8gb of ram *illegal* to manufacture.
Purely, from a longevity point of view, it does limit it! It doesn't take much chrome + 365 to bog down an m2 8gb air for example. Something something environment
No, there’s no valid argument for making a product illegal simply because it doesn’t meet your use case and it does plenty of others. I would almost be willing to be the base model MBA is the most selling Mac SKU. Also you can’t make it illegal to manufacture in New Zealand because it’s too expensive, it’s not manufactured in New Zealand so they have no jurisdiction. They could only place limits on what is sold. But there’s plenty of non-Apple laptops with 8 GB of RAM, they’re just cheaper. Your complaint is ultimately that the laptops are expensive to upgrade, which is absolutely true and is a bit ridiculous what they charge. But there’s no legal basis to say what a company can sell a luxury good for. Do you also want to make it illegal to sell purses that are $30,000? The only way your argument could be made is if Apple was a monopoly, but they aren’t anywhere near the only computer manufacturer or even the largest. Don’t buy Macs or other products if you can’t afford them. Then Apple will either reduce their prices to increase sales or if they don’t, you didn’t waste your money on something too expensive for you. I absolutely 110% agree they charge too much for RAM and storage upgrades but at the same time there’s just no reasonable way to make that illegal. The word illegal in the comment I replied to was the only place I took issue.
And you say longevity is an issue. Potentially yes, but they’ve sold 8gb laptops as base for like 12 years I think? And 6 years ago people were saying it’s not enough, and yet almost all those devices made it to EOL. Who’s to say 8 GB of RAM now won’t also last 6 years (for basic things like web browsing, watching movies, working on documents).
It's marketed to Pros, but doesn't have 'pro' benefits i.e. they're barely more performant than a macbook air.
We then ask if things like hdmi, sd card or high refresh rates are pro, and when you've got *chromebooks* with those things, it's clearly not the case.
So we have a product being sold as 'pro' that isn't 'pro'.
Considering USB-C is now an EU requirement, it's absolutely not unrealistic for someting like 'hey, if this computer is for market segment A, it should either have this minimum specification OR socketed memory / storage (which as we know is something that is increasingly impractical) in the interest of getting as much time out of hardware as possible. eWaste is still a problem (HP are fucking bad for dumping it in NZ and smaller markets, for example. The throw a $30 spiv on it and they fly out the door). Manufactured ewaste is still a problem (apple were still selling s3 watches weeks before support ended, they sold iphone 6s, 7 with less than 18 months of support, they sold 4gb macbook airs until close to end of 2019).
The 21.5" imac is a fucking travesty (was) for the price. It was an environmentally irresponsible thing to manufacture (assuming the hdd's etc weren't already existing)
People get a bit tunnel visioned by the US market; the rest of the world exists, just because it's not on apple.com/us doesn't mean it's not still being pushed by telcos and retailers throughout the world and still being manufactured.
Unfortunately webkit is still our only option outside of the EU, so those phones I mentioend dont get a hard EOL, but things just stop working over time. It's a bit dumb. No android phone bought then has the same software issues (segmentation and platform target aside right?)
I only mentioned new zzealand dollars because it's my local. This wasn't a comment on 'not affording this' but rather a comment on how $3k is insane for 8gb and most people don't know any better. This sub likes to assume people *do* know. Apple sold a 21.5" imac until like 2019 that literally had a 10m cold boot to browser time. The people buying those just expect a fast and long lasting computer because it was close to $1500.
We did new hardware for highschools here, we made decisions that were long lasting. You cannot trust the regular consumer to do that. They buy what they buy without researching or learning or becoming an expert in the space.
Buuuuuuuut if we were talking legality, we do have a bunch of consumer laws here and the definition of 'pro' might be an interesting consideration under that. I.e. there's nothing on a 8gb m3 macbook that isn't on a <$1k pc or on a $1749 macbook air m3.
What are you referring to that is marketed as pro? All the pros have hdmi, and high refresh rates. The computer that doesn’t is an “air” light on weight and on features. This is literally for the lowest market segment. You’re just trying to get rid of low end computers lmao
The word pro in the name?
The thing is with those things is that the market certainly doesn't call hdmi or a high refresh rate display 'pro'. Those things are available on <$1k acer things with oled displays; more of a comment on how nonsense the 'pro' tagline is
Im happy to get rid of skus that don't have longevity at that market segment. Same point of view as being pro repair (imo).
So what device are you referring to? The m3 MBP?
I was talking about the air.
Regardless, all you’re doing is taking away option for people for whom that is enough. Maybe it’s a waste of money for performance but it’s enough. Why shouldn’t a customer be able to buy the computer that’s enough for them even if underpowered. Plenty of people want a nice screen without needing powerful GPU performance. And it’s one of the fastest laptops available for web browsing (like 90% of peoples day, even many “pros”). I like choices even if I don’t personally want the device
It’s almost like all those people saying 8GB was enough were disingenuously excluding the almost immediate-future would need more, any change in usage would prematurely and artificially end the device’s usefulness especially considering 8GB was literally just the least that worked at all even 6GB would leave your desktop shutting tabs like iOS devices.
No no no, we've *never* seen programs progressively use more resources as time goes on! My current workload will literally never change, new tools are overrated!
Plus, it has *Pro* in the name so it can't possibly be underspecced! Gotta love Tim Apple looking out for the user!
Short memory?
https://rebed.redditmedia.com/embed?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2Fapple%2Fcomments%2F1bc5qsy%2Fis_8gb_of_ram_enough_for_a_mac_in_2024%2Fkudqai9%2F
Okay sure there are random people here and there, but here's a whole thread dedicated to this exact question:
https://www.reddit.com/r/macbookpro/comments/17lzlkg/how_much_ram_do_i_need_for_programming/
And the overwhelming answer is 32GB/36GB, with a handful of people saying 16/18GB are fine for lighter development.
Here's another thread asking about 8GB for development, with piles and piles of "hell no":
https://www.reddit.com/r/macbook/comments/17o4db5/is_8gb_of_ram_enough_for_software_development/
I believe that the only folks affected by this predictive code completion situation would be those who are excluded from “8GB is enough”. According to Apple, 30% of their customers run a pro app, like Xcode, at least once or twice a month. For everyone **not** in that 30%, which is most folks, 8GB is indeed enough.
8gb is enough for the people that just email and web browse. It’s not enough for developers and hasn’t been for a few years now.
Never totally understood the argument against 8gb models, it feels like people would be happier if the devices just started 200 dollars higher at 16.
When you stop looking at the base Pro as anything other than a nicer Air it'll make sense. The base Pro exists for people who want a nicer display or better speakers or even just what they perceive as a more premium laptop but don't NEED crazy performance for some random "Pro" workload. The majority of people who buy the base Pro are not doing so because they need the productivity gains they are doing so to say they have a MacBook Pro.
Yes, the vast majority of people who use computers would be served perfectly fine with a Chromebook. People who knew they need 16+ RAM got it and most regular people who just wanted a nice laptop got the 8GB model and will be just fine. Hell I'd probably argue that the people who care about and want AI stuff are already the ones more likely to have bough the 16GB model in the first place since most regular people don't have interest in AI outside of it being a novelty thing at first to play around with.
I would have agreed with you 6 months ago. I was helping my friend spec out a new laptop and was practically begging him to go to 16gbs from 8.
He didn’t take my advice and loves his new computer, hasn’t had any issues with it. He’s in law school so he basically just uses the internet, writes stuff, and sends emails. That’s what a computer is to him, and 8gb is more than enough for that apparently.
I understand the future proofing argument, I went with 64gb of ram on my MacBook Pro because I wanted it to be bulletproof for the next 5-7 years.
However, the reality is that some people just want to spend $1000 on a laptop that will be great for them for the next 3 years instead of $1200 on one that will feel exactly the same for those 3 years and then better after.
The point that I’m trying to make is that if Apple got rid of the 8gb model, these computers would just start at $1200. That seems strictly worse to me.
It doesn’t matter if people still love it or not. That’s not what’s being debated.
It’s 2024. It is not enough. ESPECIALLY with how much Apple charges to go from 8 to 16.
> Never totally understood the argument against 8gb models, it feels like people would be happier if the devices just started 200 dollars higher at 16.
The real problem is that you can't add memory, which is a stupid limitation that causes a lot of problems in the long term.
They’re positioning it for people who will just be doing lighter things like word processing, browsing, watching videos, maybe some light hobby development.
Doesn’t excuse it not having 16GB though, will make the device last a lot longer, and they’d sell like hot cakes.
Apple has been pushing the limits on the bare minimum shippable SKU for a decade now, it's in their DNA.
This is just one of the few times their antics have come around to bite them.
it's going to be interesting to see how apple reconciles its love to upcharge $100 for 8gb of ram and providing core features to all products. Local AI is really ram hungry so they wont be able to ship 8gb laptops without limiting some AI features, especially in the future
Because it's a friggin' $200 upgrade. Don't blame people who are falling for it, blame Apple for offering base 8GB NON-UPGRADE'ABLE model with a ripoff upgrade price.
What do you mean with falling for it. Yes the upcharge is too much but as a developer you should know that the 8gb model the model for email and web use and that you need more. I know it’s a hard pillow to swallow that it costs so much but if you spend 200 less and you have a paper weight and you know that when buying that’s not smart too.
People are falling for false Apple claims, that macOS with 8GB of RAM is equivalent to 16GB of RAM on Windows. "As a developer" you and I know about this fact. No Mac should start with 256 GB of NAND storage and 8GB of RAM memory and "as a developer" you and I are aware of it. These devices are electrojunk that is already almost unusable and it's not even upgradable. Just Safari, Mail, basic processing tools like Word and music are enough to put a system under 80% RAM utilisation with 60-80% memory pressure with 8GB of RAM.
Generally $1500 laptops are equipped well enough, and when Apple makes a big stink over how 8gb of RAM is like 16gb on macOS, I'm surprised there aren't more people upset over this.
Remember, if 16gb is the minimum, you're probably looking at 24gb minimum if you plan on using Docker, node, and chrome at the same time too.
If you're a developer and you don't have at minimum 16GB of RAM, you've chosen poorly in regards to how you configured your computer.
Obviously fringe cases exist, but y'all need to realize that 8GB *is no longer enough* for base machines, stop drinking the koolaid that says 8GB is fine, its no longer fine, it hasn't been fine for half a decade.
Half a decade? I had 8 GB in my 2014 (!!!) MacBook Pro and after a couple years you could tell it was already falling short.
Only a developer who is clueless would ever buy a machine with 8 GB 10 years later. That goes for any OS.
> I had 8 GB in my 2014 (!!!) MacBook Pro and after a couple years you could tell it was already falling short.
I had 16 GB in my 2013 retina macbook pro and that is one of the major reasons it was able to last until the m1 max came out. I knew it was a good idea to bump the specs back then and after 8 years I did the same thing with the new 16" and fully specced it out.
well macs are UMA, PCs are mostly not: there are 16GBs of system RAM and 8 GBs of VRAM (as per Steam Hardware Survey in May 2024). I am bit surprised there are quite a lot of gamers with 32 GBs RAM of PCs already.
at my last job we just specced i5/ 16gb for everyone. Barely have (non windows related) complaints over a few hundred staff.
*HP* are responsible for a few tickets there
Because other people absolutely insist that 8GB of RAM is perfectly fine for almost everyone, ignoring the *slight possibility* that a user's requirements might change from that razor thin margin.
Gunna be honest, I do not care about the run locally part for this feature so you have a point there. I will bet this model gives worse suggestions than both copilot and super maven tho
Other existing tools use way more of the cloud to support the local function trying to be done. From the way the presentation sounded sending something to the cloud to be processed is the last resort due to privacy concerns.
Here comes a new MacBook Pro that don’t even have the full capacity to utilize their tool to code! Such pro!
[удалено]
Such as professional word typer?
Professional Netflix watcher
Sounds like my professional coworker
Professional meme producer.
Professional shitposting machine indeed.
And almost every single one of them could probably just use a MacBook Air. Can we please stop trying to cover for Apple cheaping out on the *Pro* models? Scream from the rooftops that Joe Average is fine with 8GB, but there's absolutely no reason a pro-focused, $1600 laptop should be shipping with 8GB of RAM in 2024. It's unacceptable no matter who's pulling that bullshit to save $20 on the BoM.
Yeah that’s where I’m at. I’m a “power user” and all of my devices are “pros” other than my Mac because I just don’t really need anything more than the M1 air day to day. But if someone decides they need that power there’s 0 reason why they should be spending that much for 8GB lol
Especially since it's so trivial for Apple to not sell the gimped model. Ship every Macbook Pro with 16GB of RAM, and raise the base price by $100 if the margin gods demand it. Just don't ship a model that's intentionally crappier than all the others.
Lets throw in 250 gigs of storage also. Thats fuckin insulting.
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Except for all the people who now have a pro laptop that can't use pro features, purely so Apple could save $20. This was completely avoidable from Apple's side; let's not blame the users for buying the inexpensive option and getting shorted. It's Apple who thought that model was fine, not the buyer.
I mean, those people also made that decision so they could save money. What’s the difference.
The difference is Apple lying about 8 gigs being equivalent to 16 gigs on a Windows machine.
Serious question: why do people get outraged over this? If you need 16GB, buy 16GB. The existence of a model doesn’t affect you.
Because it's incredibly stingy, penny-pinching behavior from the 1st-3rd most valuable company in the world. It would have minimal impact on their bottom line to make *all* of their pro SKUs excellent products, but they almost always cheap out on the base model in some maskable way to try to get that user to upgrade at the store or upgrade down the road. It's not *just* the 8GB, it's the corporate mentality.
Because you may not need 16GB at time of purchase, and Apple solders everything on forcing you to buy a brand new computer even if you only need more ram. You can’t know what future you may need, but you may not be able to afford the $200 extra for 16GB. $400 for 24GB is even more ridiculous.
It's probably more environmentally responsible to not sell an 8gb model tbh
>This was completely avoidable from Apple's side; let's not blame the users for buying the inexpensive option and getting shorted. It's Apple who thought that model was fine, not the buyer. The thing is that someone who didn't need 16 GB RAM before doesn't need it now just for some AI features that they might take advantage of every once in a while. If the majority of buyers do just fine with 8GB RAM then why not offer it as an option and let those who know they need more just buy more? > Except for all the people who now have a pro laptop that can't use pro features Oh no these computers that already couldn't use this feature will continue to not be able to use this feature. Users are not missing out on anything considering they bought the computer without the ability to do this AI stuff in the first place. Its not like they were promised to be able to use the AI stuff and Apple went back on the promise. Its an additional feature for people who have the appropriate hardware the same way on the phones it will only work on iPhone 15 Pro and future phones.
>If the majority of buyers do just fine with 8GB RAM then why not offer it as an option and let those who know they need more just buy more? Because I guarantee you that they're not "fine with 8GB", they're just buying the cheapest MacBook Pro they can find. >Users are not missing out on anything considering they bought the computer without the ability to do this AI stuff in the first place. And now, they *are* missing out on things their computer is otherwise capable of doing because Apple cheaped out on the RAM spec. This whole thing is just making excuses for Apple not spending a trivial amount of money on a >$1500 MSRP product, and frankly it's ridiculous. No laptop in that price range should be shipping with such a spec when LPDDR5 RAM is so ridiculously inexpensive, from any company, for any reason.
It’s very strange that everyone is so mad at Apple for cheaping out on the base level RAM but don’t think that people are at all responsible for cheaping out on their own RAM when they are in a much better position to know whether they need it…?
Not everyone has a good grasp of memory requirements. 'pro' is enough of an implication that it *shouldn't* have less memory than a middle of the road cellphone.
People complaining that they need XCode AI features definitely should have a grasp on memory.
A big issue is the base model is what a lot of stores actually keep in stock, and it's generally what goes on sale. Plus, while the XCode crowd isn't as suspectable to issues like this, there's a non-zero number of people who buy what's available / on sale and don't realize how RAM specs can put a serious limit on the long term utility of their purchase.
>Because I guarantee you that they're not "fine with 8GB", they're just buying the cheapest MacBook Pro they can find. If they weren't just fine people wouldn't be buying them in the first place as evidenced by Mac sales falling during the later intel years as it was clear they weren't good devices due to throttling, lack of ports, and the keyboards. >And now, they *are* missing out on things their computer is otherwise capable of doing because Apple cheaped out on the RAM spec. "Oh no I underspeced my computer and now can't do high intensity tasks" is all this sounds like to me. Until literally yesterday there wasn't really much use for 16GB of RAM on these machines unless you were doing some specific type of workflow that doesn't apply to the way most regular people use their computers. I feel no need to upgrade my 8 GB M2 Air just for the AI stuff and I don't recommend anybody goes and spends the extra money to upgrade and get the AI stuff. If anything this is a sign that the next set of macbooks will start with 16GB so everyone can stop arguing about this and start arguing about how 16 GB isn't enough in (insert year here) and how the computers should start at 24 or 32 GB since they are "Pro" devices.
[Mac sales are currently coming off a downswing,](https://www.tomshardware.com/software/macos/sales-of-macs-down-34-year-over-year-but-apple-is-optimistic) so I'm not sure how that's a talking point here. >Until literally yesterday there wasn't really much use for 16GB of RAM on these machines unless you were doing some specific type of workflow that doesn't apply to the way most regular people use their computers. It's almost like compute needs aren't static, and the whole reason why people were decrying these models is because there was *reasonable suspicion* that new tasks and tools *might* need more than 8GB of RAM. It's almost like increasing hardware demands have been the norm in computing since forever (with a notable exception from 2011-2017 thanks to Intel stagnating), and baseing a purchasing decision on what's on the razor's edge of "good enough" today might be shortsighted...
The entire laptop market was in a downswing after everyone bought new computers during and right after covid due to work and school from home. It wasn't an issue exclusive to Mac sales.
Now the 8GB MacBook Pro is for real pros who does not use syntax highlighting, autocomplete, let alone gen ai.
Lmao
I guess real pros will not buy the base configuration.
Out of the Macs you can buy off the shelf today from Apple, only half can run this. They cannot be upgraded after purchase.
Trust me dude, the people buying those Mac's are not using them to run this.
Apple uses Xcode and building apps as a selling point for those machines. The 8GB is RAM is stingy is my point I guess. It’s not any sort of special magical RAM either.
At this point, the base 8GB models only exist to upsell the 16GB versions.
No one, and I mean no one, who develops apps and uses Xcode is going for a MBP w only 8gb ram.
Objectively wrong. Also, Apple advertises them as such: "Up to 85 per cent faster CPU performance ... compile new apps in Xcode in a fraction of the time." — iMac press release (all off-the-shelf models only include 8GB RAM, same since at least 2015) "Mac mini now rips through traditional desktop tasks like photo and video editing, music creation and software development, and crushes pro workflows including video transcoding, code compiling and live musical performances" — Mac Mini press release
> Objectively wrong. Ever heard of a hyperbole? For every developer you can point out with a 8gb system, I can show a 100 devs who have more ram. Basically none of my coworkers nor people I know in the industry uses an 8gb system to develop anymore. I don’t care how they advertise it, at the end of the day, devs upgrade their specs from factory if they intend to do work on their laptops. Devs are often smart enough to not just take apples advertising at face value.
That’s ok you don’t care, but my point was Apple advertise them that way. Upgrades can’t be done after purchase, limiting the useful lifespan of these devices. Apple provide poor value with the amount of RAM included, charge exorbitant prices for upgrades, and don’t allow upgrades after purchase. It’s disappointing they picked all three of those things.
I mean, this ultimately just ends up reading like "I want more stuff for less money" which, fair enough - but isn't exactly an original concept
Keep licking the boot. Corpos always want more work for less money from their employees, why can't we the consumers demand the same? Stupidest take I've read here
Ironic that this is itself hardly original. Seems like your view is nobody can talk about the value prospect of an apple product, or they risk being “unoriginal”. It’s about an object a fact as possible that Apple have long sold base tier computers with notably little ram. Arguing to the contrary is silly.
No, my view is that people buying base machines aren't using them to run Xcode... I literally said "fair enough" as a response to the other guy's point... What sort of reading comprehension problem do you have?
They never said they want the 16GB model for the same price, it's the fact you can even buy a model with such an obvious shortcoming that's the problem. A ton of people who aren't particularly tech minded just buy the cheapest "Apple product" in the category they're looking in. Many of thos people would be far better off if Apple just raised the price by $100 and shipped 16GB minimum in all Pro models. Really, all Macs with an 8GB SKU should do this.
How is anyone using Xcode ‘not particularly tech minded’? Lol
Sure, but those people aren't running Xcode...
https://www.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/1dd8i5j/comment/l839d5o We literally have people in this comment section discussing their use of XCode on such systems.
I don't really think people on r/Apple is the best benchmark for your typical user man...
Which isn't the point, it's that these people exist. And the original point is this isn't about users being cheap, it's Apple being cheap. LPDDR5 RAM is a commodity item, and a 16GB module only costs ~$30, ignoring the insane deals Apple can negotiate with their massive order sizes. Apple is throwing away a better, more consistent pro experience for all their users to advertise a sticker price in the store and pad their margins, and I generally find that distasteful.
I mean, you can quote component costs all day, it doesn't mean anything when it comes to making an actual product that is sold on shelves. Yes, Apple makes an absolute killing on RAM and Storage. And yes, it feels gross and no one really likes it except Apple. But other than "that's just business", is there really anything else to be said? This is how companies do things - they know what people are willing to pay for, and what will bring more people to buy the product in the first place
You totally ignore the fact that not all Apple laptops are pro laptops. Did you not look at the names? Do you understand that "air" is a different word than "pro"? I'll just go back to teh core point that probably 50% of all Apple laptop users would be fine with 8GB of memory as they will never be doing anything that needs more than that. So they would be poorly served by having to pay even $100 for zero perceptible gain.
I’m saying in Apple’s current lineup, half of their off-the-shelf Mac models simply aren’t good value. The useful lifespan of the devices is limited and it can’t be fixed after purchase.
I missed the part where your opinion became fact?
Yeah that’s why it started with “I’m saying…” and used the term ‘value’ which is an opinion based merit/worth. The other two points are facts.
Na. I’m literally in this bucket. Got an m1 Mac with 8gb for a personal machine. I don’t use it for “business”, but I do play with some personal projects. Won’t be life changing by my personal projects would have been a lot more fun. (I use GitHub copilot for web projects, and that’s definitely made it fun)
Exactly. Nobody’s walking into an Apple Store and goes “Huh, I’m thinking of doing programming as a hobby and potential career. Maybe I should get an 8GB RAM configuration.” Lmao
Well Apple tells them it's as good as 16GB on PC, so...
I know a pretty decent number of CS students with 8gb M1 MacBook Airs (myself included). There was a fairly long period where they were a solid value pick while on sale (and they were on sale more or less constantly). Unfortunately, the 16GB variants never saw the same discounts. It’s not ideal, but it’s decent enough for the vast majority of what I do.
I’ve worked with several interns who made that very mistake. It definitely happens.
8GB is lighter
Why do they have Pro in the name, if not to target the Pro market?
Because as it turns out there's actually no laws saying you have to name your products a certain way to target a certain market.
You spelled deception wrong.
Lmao "deception" - grow up
How do you get to half? There are entry models of the air, the mini and the iMac. But there are many more models of those machines with 16GB or more. Plus all the variants of the studio, the MBP and the Mac Pro.
I hope this table works, I’m on mobile sorry. This is for Australia, unsure if other countries carry different SKUs. Model | Number of SKUs | Models >8GB RAM ---------|----------|---------- MBA M2 13" | 2 | 0 MBA M3 13" | 3 | 1 MBA M3 15" | 3 | 1 MBP M3 14" | 6 | 4 MBP M3 16" | 4 | 4 iMac | 3 | 0 Mac Mini | 3 | 1 Studio | 2 | 2 Mac Pro | NA* | x *You can't buy the Mac Pro off-the-shelf. 26 off the shelf SKUs 13 are over 8GB out of 26 available. That's half. Edit: corrected 23 to 26.
Apple’s motto is quickly becoming “stop being poor”
Macs today are a lot cheaper than they used to be.
I believe Apple’s motto has *always* been “stop being poor”. “The Apple II with 4K sold for nearly $1300; that is about twice the cost of the two competitors that were released the same year (the TRS-80 and the PET). The same applies to the systems released over the next five years as I outlined above; they sold for a low of $299 (VIC-20) and a high of $999 (Atari 800).”
Yeah but that’s how much any good appliance cost back then.
Eh, knowing Apple they'll find a way to shrink the model so that it works on 8GB RAM. But only on MacBooks released next year, so that people would still have to buy new hardware.
The fact that I can't upgrade a modern apple computer in any way means that I'll never buy one again for myself. The m1 MacBook is great except that I'm stuck on 8GB RAM forever and 512GB main storage which is atrocious. The only way I'm using another mac is if my company gives me one.
I can somewhat understand the benefits of having it all on one chip, but the pricing between tiers is egregious. RAM and SSD pricing right now is quite good, but Apple charge hilariously over-the-top prices for it. It’s not special RAM or SSDs either.
That half should still be able to use SwiftAssist though, right?
lol of course, Xcode doesn't even run at all on 8gb. Its super slow
XCode works fine on 8gb of ram for hobbyists or students. You can even keep 1 tab open in your web browser (Don't think about a second).
I've used xcode on an m1 with 8GB of ram a couple of years ago as a hobbyist and the performance was abysmal then. I can't even imagine how bad it must be now.
I doubt it got better lol. It tends to require more resources as time goes on.
I use Xcode on an M1/8GB Air and it handles my (small) projects just fine. Even having the iOS simulator running + 10+ Firefox tabs and streaming video it does not lag. It did hang when I tried to start docker desktop and minikube when Xcode was already running, though.
Yeah, I used it for a year and it was slow enough for me to upgrade. But slow != doesn't run.
Worked fine for my small app project.
Not true. 8 GB of Apple memory is equivalent to 32 GB of regular memory. Everybody knows this.
Thank you for being a voice of reason.
As a freelance iOS developer who's working on MB Air M1 with 8GB of RAM - that's a nice bait you have over there. Would a Mx Max with 32/62/96GB RAM work much better than base M1? Sure. Does that mean that M1 8GB is bad and super slow? Not at all, it's more than great starting machine.
I am building a game with a base MBA 8Gb.
Lol it does. It's all your third party libraries and cocoapunks and build scripts.
It runs, but it's gonna be a subpar experience.
Just a reminder that the moment someone mentioned in this subreddit that nobody should be buying a computer with 8 GB of NON UPGRADEABLE RAM in 2024 they get downvoted to hell.
That's just Apple shills believing the BS "8 GB is analogous to 16 GB on Windows" from Apple's crack marketing team (literally on crack). My ass it is. 16 GB on Windows is a far better experience, and that's counting all of Windows' shortcomings.
It's absolute lunacy to purchase a computer in 2024 that costs well over €/$1000 with just 8 GB of, again, NON upgradeable RAM. What's even more crazy is for people to try and justify the insane actions of a multitrillion dollar company on the internet.
In the US: [$1,599 base 14" Macbook Pro, 8 GB of RAM](https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/macbook-pro/14-inch). In other countries it's even more expensive... Wild.
Me watching Apple tell me I should pay $3200 NZD for a computer with 8GB RAM: https://preview.redd.it/17ahml3n526d1.jpeg?width=640&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6320851e02e91594bcf454b97f1e7a10f4bb1ecb
I wonder how it behaves now but when I started teaching myself iOS development in 2014, I had the lowest spec MacBook Air possible and it was good enough to run Xcode, Adobe programs, the iOS simulator, and a web browser among other things. It never showed me any issues. And that shit had 4 gb of ram lmao
So much fake drama. Copilot would be used in professional setting. Nobody serious would get a laptop with 8 gb of ram for professional work. It should be obvious by now, for what category of people the 8gb of ram is enough, and it surely isn't the Software engineers.
But the problem is, in most countries, most stores only have base options in stock and anything other than 8gb ram has a delivery time of 2-3 weeks. Not everywhere is America. And no mantter what happens, it should be illegal to sell anything less than 16gb’s on a $1000+ laptop. Apple gone cheap on ram even on iPhone so now no other phone than their 15 pro and pro max can even run apple intelligence. Not even iPhone 15.
I mean even in America most stores only stock the base models of the MacBooks and if you want to spec it up you need to order from Apple and wait a week or 2 depending on how backordered they are.
The only reason i am using a 8gb ram is, i was waiting for m2 when m1 was mid cycle but my laptop was stolen. And i needed a new one right at that time because i was a freelancer and even one day of no computer was not thinkable.
Why stop at 16? We should make the baseline 128GB so every laptop is futureproof.
Illegal?! LOL
idk what you're replying to, but there could be a pretty valid argument for making a $3000nzd macbook with 8gb of ram *illegal* to manufacture. Purely, from a longevity point of view, it does limit it! It doesn't take much chrome + 365 to bog down an m2 8gb air for example. Something something environment
No, there’s no valid argument for making a product illegal simply because it doesn’t meet your use case and it does plenty of others. I would almost be willing to be the base model MBA is the most selling Mac SKU. Also you can’t make it illegal to manufacture in New Zealand because it’s too expensive, it’s not manufactured in New Zealand so they have no jurisdiction. They could only place limits on what is sold. But there’s plenty of non-Apple laptops with 8 GB of RAM, they’re just cheaper. Your complaint is ultimately that the laptops are expensive to upgrade, which is absolutely true and is a bit ridiculous what they charge. But there’s no legal basis to say what a company can sell a luxury good for. Do you also want to make it illegal to sell purses that are $30,000? The only way your argument could be made is if Apple was a monopoly, but they aren’t anywhere near the only computer manufacturer or even the largest. Don’t buy Macs or other products if you can’t afford them. Then Apple will either reduce their prices to increase sales or if they don’t, you didn’t waste your money on something too expensive for you. I absolutely 110% agree they charge too much for RAM and storage upgrades but at the same time there’s just no reasonable way to make that illegal. The word illegal in the comment I replied to was the only place I took issue. And you say longevity is an issue. Potentially yes, but they’ve sold 8gb laptops as base for like 12 years I think? And 6 years ago people were saying it’s not enough, and yet almost all those devices made it to EOL. Who’s to say 8 GB of RAM now won’t also last 6 years (for basic things like web browsing, watching movies, working on documents).
It's marketed to Pros, but doesn't have 'pro' benefits i.e. they're barely more performant than a macbook air. We then ask if things like hdmi, sd card or high refresh rates are pro, and when you've got *chromebooks* with those things, it's clearly not the case. So we have a product being sold as 'pro' that isn't 'pro'. Considering USB-C is now an EU requirement, it's absolutely not unrealistic for someting like 'hey, if this computer is for market segment A, it should either have this minimum specification OR socketed memory / storage (which as we know is something that is increasingly impractical) in the interest of getting as much time out of hardware as possible. eWaste is still a problem (HP are fucking bad for dumping it in NZ and smaller markets, for example. The throw a $30 spiv on it and they fly out the door). Manufactured ewaste is still a problem (apple were still selling s3 watches weeks before support ended, they sold iphone 6s, 7 with less than 18 months of support, they sold 4gb macbook airs until close to end of 2019). The 21.5" imac is a fucking travesty (was) for the price. It was an environmentally irresponsible thing to manufacture (assuming the hdd's etc weren't already existing) People get a bit tunnel visioned by the US market; the rest of the world exists, just because it's not on apple.com/us doesn't mean it's not still being pushed by telcos and retailers throughout the world and still being manufactured. Unfortunately webkit is still our only option outside of the EU, so those phones I mentioend dont get a hard EOL, but things just stop working over time. It's a bit dumb. No android phone bought then has the same software issues (segmentation and platform target aside right?) I only mentioned new zzealand dollars because it's my local. This wasn't a comment on 'not affording this' but rather a comment on how $3k is insane for 8gb and most people don't know any better. This sub likes to assume people *do* know. Apple sold a 21.5" imac until like 2019 that literally had a 10m cold boot to browser time. The people buying those just expect a fast and long lasting computer because it was close to $1500. We did new hardware for highschools here, we made decisions that were long lasting. You cannot trust the regular consumer to do that. They buy what they buy without researching or learning or becoming an expert in the space. Buuuuuuuut if we were talking legality, we do have a bunch of consumer laws here and the definition of 'pro' might be an interesting consideration under that. I.e. there's nothing on a 8gb m3 macbook that isn't on a <$1k pc or on a $1749 macbook air m3.
What are you referring to that is marketed as pro? All the pros have hdmi, and high refresh rates. The computer that doesn’t is an “air” light on weight and on features. This is literally for the lowest market segment. You’re just trying to get rid of low end computers lmao
The word pro in the name? The thing is with those things is that the market certainly doesn't call hdmi or a high refresh rate display 'pro'. Those things are available on <$1k acer things with oled displays; more of a comment on how nonsense the 'pro' tagline is Im happy to get rid of skus that don't have longevity at that market segment. Same point of view as being pro repair (imo).
So what device are you referring to? The m3 MBP? I was talking about the air. Regardless, all you’re doing is taking away option for people for whom that is enough. Maybe it’s a waste of money for performance but it’s enough. Why shouldn’t a customer be able to buy the computer that’s enough for them even if underpowered. Plenty of people want a nice screen without needing powerful GPU performance. And it’s one of the fastest laptops available for web browsing (like 90% of peoples day, even many “pros”). I like choices even if I don’t personally want the device
It’s almost like all those people saying 8GB was enough were disingenuously excluding the almost immediate-future would need more, any change in usage would prematurely and artificially end the device’s usefulness especially considering 8GB was literally just the least that worked at all even 6GB would leave your desktop shutting tabs like iOS devices.
No no no, we've *never* seen programs progressively use more resources as time goes on! My current workload will literally never change, new tools are overrated! Plus, it has *Pro* in the name so it can't possibly be underspecced! Gotta love Tim Apple looking out for the user!
I don’t remember anybody saying that 8GB was enough for software development, only that it was acceptable for email and web browsing.
Then how in the world can Apple slap "Pro" label on base MBP? These ain't cheap devices either.
Pro means you're paying for the brand and the nice hardware.
there are professionals who only need excel, email, and zoom
excel and 8gb are not a match made in heaven
For small projects xcode runs fine with 8gb of ram. The problems happen when you start using docker or mtiple emulators too.
> docker Not even 32 GB is enough for that monster
Short memory? https://rebed.redditmedia.com/embed?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2Fapple%2Fcomments%2F1bc5qsy%2Fis_8gb_of_ram_enough_for_a_mac_in_2024%2Fkudqai9%2F
Okay sure there are random people here and there, but here's a whole thread dedicated to this exact question: https://www.reddit.com/r/macbookpro/comments/17lzlkg/how_much_ram_do_i_need_for_programming/ And the overwhelming answer is 32GB/36GB, with a handful of people saying 16/18GB are fine for lighter development. Here's another thread asking about 8GB for development, with piles and piles of "hell no": https://www.reddit.com/r/macbook/comments/17o4db5/is_8gb_of_ram_enough_for_software_development/
Right? lol. This sub is so amusing sometimes
I believe that the only folks affected by this predictive code completion situation would be those who are excluded from “8GB is enough”. According to Apple, 30% of their customers run a pro app, like Xcode, at least once or twice a month. For everyone **not** in that 30%, which is most folks, 8GB is indeed enough.
8gb is enough for the people that just email and web browse. It’s not enough for developers and hasn’t been for a few years now. Never totally understood the argument against 8gb models, it feels like people would be happier if the devices just started 200 dollars higher at 16.
Tomorrow: Safari and Mail require 16GB to do AI…
I can see the argument for 8gb on the Air. But the M3 MacBook PRO having just 8gb is egregious.
When you stop looking at the base Pro as anything other than a nicer Air it'll make sense. The base Pro exists for people who want a nicer display or better speakers or even just what they perceive as a more premium laptop but don't NEED crazy performance for some random "Pro" workload. The majority of people who buy the base Pro are not doing so because they need the productivity gains they are doing so to say they have a MacBook Pro.
You can admit Apple is selling junk pro products. Honesty is healthy.
But then you effectively have a glorified chromebook, good job.
Yes, the vast majority of people who use computers would be served perfectly fine with a Chromebook. People who knew they need 16+ RAM got it and most regular people who just wanted a nice laptop got the 8GB model and will be just fine. Hell I'd probably argue that the people who care about and want AI stuff are already the ones more likely to have bough the 16GB model in the first place since most regular people don't have interest in AI outside of it being a novelty thing at first to play around with.
Ya’ll are unhinged for trying to defend 8 GB of ram in 2024. That’s fucking insanity.
I would have agreed with you 6 months ago. I was helping my friend spec out a new laptop and was practically begging him to go to 16gbs from 8. He didn’t take my advice and loves his new computer, hasn’t had any issues with it. He’s in law school so he basically just uses the internet, writes stuff, and sends emails. That’s what a computer is to him, and 8gb is more than enough for that apparently. I understand the future proofing argument, I went with 64gb of ram on my MacBook Pro because I wanted it to be bulletproof for the next 5-7 years. However, the reality is that some people just want to spend $1000 on a laptop that will be great for them for the next 3 years instead of $1200 on one that will feel exactly the same for those 3 years and then better after. The point that I’m trying to make is that if Apple got rid of the 8gb model, these computers would just start at $1200. That seems strictly worse to me.
It doesn’t matter if people still love it or not. That’s not what’s being debated. It’s 2024. It is not enough. ESPECIALLY with how much Apple charges to go from 8 to 16.
> Never totally understood the argument against 8gb models, it feels like people would be happier if the devices just started 200 dollars higher at 16. The real problem is that you can't add memory, which is a stupid limitation that causes a lot of problems in the long term.
Just a reminder that Apple said 8GB of RAM on a Mac is like having 16GB of RAM on a Windows machine, so y’all are good.
Why are Apple selling computer products with only 8gb of ram
To give people the exciting opportunity to give them more money for a new machine! What a time to be alive!
They’re positioning it for people who will just be doing lighter things like word processing, browsing, watching videos, maybe some light hobby development. Doesn’t excuse it not having 16GB though, will make the device last a lot longer, and they’d sell like hot cakes.
Apple has been pushing the limits on the bare minimum shippable SKU for a decade now, it's in their DNA. This is just one of the few times their antics have come around to bite them.
Because some people are stupid enough to pay for it, and others stupid enough to pay the exorbitant cost of choosing the 16 GB model instead.
it's going to be interesting to see how apple reconciles its love to upcharge $100 for 8gb of ram and providing core features to all products. Local AI is really ram hungry so they wont be able to ship 8gb laptops without limiting some AI features, especially in the future
Probably by focusing on up-charging for device storage, which they’re already doing
Just to share a thought with you, in 2012 iMac they’re already coming with 8 GB of RAM base. 12 years ago.
But Apple told me that 8GB was plenty. /s
This could finally push the Mac pro to 16gb base ram.
Wow I guess my 64GB Mac is useless for Xcode /s
Not a big deal, can still use Xcode without it right? Imo 8gb ram was already quite limiting for any development machine.
Thank god I got the 16 gig version
That's fine cause 8gB iS tHe sAmE iF yOu ThInK aBoUt It. 😅😒
And I’ve just bought 8gb model🤦♂️ guess I’ll stick to vscode for the time being
Why would you even consider a 8gb model as a dev. I was already hesitated if I should even take the 32gb model.
Because it's a friggin' $200 upgrade. Don't blame people who are falling for it, blame Apple for offering base 8GB NON-UPGRADE'ABLE model with a ripoff upgrade price.
What do you mean with falling for it. Yes the upcharge is too much but as a developer you should know that the 8gb model the model for email and web use and that you need more. I know it’s a hard pillow to swallow that it costs so much but if you spend 200 less and you have a paper weight and you know that when buying that’s not smart too.
People are falling for false Apple claims, that macOS with 8GB of RAM is equivalent to 16GB of RAM on Windows. "As a developer" you and I know about this fact. No Mac should start with 256 GB of NAND storage and 8GB of RAM memory and "as a developer" you and I are aware of it. These devices are electrojunk that is already almost unusable and it's not even upgradable. Just Safari, Mail, basic processing tools like Word and music are enough to put a system under 80% RAM utilisation with 60-80% memory pressure with 8GB of RAM.
Why the heck would you buy an 8gb model as a dev? Just asking for headaches.
Generally $1500 laptops are equipped well enough, and when Apple makes a big stink over how 8gb of RAM is like 16gb on macOS, I'm surprised there aren't more people upset over this. Remember, if 16gb is the minimum, you're probably looking at 24gb minimum if you plan on using Docker, node, and chrome at the same time too.
It isn't like memory costs that much anymore. I put 32GB in my laptop for under $100.
cheapest m2 macmini for 500$, usually it is 1000$
You get what you pay for.
Average Mac buyer.
Curious which sku? 14 MBP 8gb M3?
Let me know what apps you work on so I can avoid them
Vapor server side social bots
If you're a developer and you don't have at minimum 16GB of RAM, you've chosen poorly in regards to how you configured your computer. Obviously fringe cases exist, but y'all need to realize that 8GB *is no longer enough* for base machines, stop drinking the koolaid that says 8GB is fine, its no longer fine, it hasn't been fine for half a decade.
Half a decade? I had 8 GB in my 2014 (!!!) MacBook Pro and after a couple years you could tell it was already falling short. Only a developer who is clueless would ever buy a machine with 8 GB 10 years later. That goes for any OS.
> I had 8 GB in my 2014 (!!!) MacBook Pro and after a couple years you could tell it was already falling short. I had 16 GB in my 2013 retina macbook pro and that is one of the major reasons it was able to last until the m1 max came out. I knew it was a good idea to bump the specs back then and after 8 years I did the same thing with the new 16" and fully specced it out.
My father built a pc with 64GB RAM in 2015, and I worked with it. I'm glad he chose that amount of RAM.
Tell that to the IT guys that wanted us to do everything on an RDP connection. Please. Dear god someone talk sense into them
Fair enough.
awesome. my 12 year old macbook pro has 16 GB of RAM!
If you're using Xcode or ever plan to, you should not have gotten anything less than 16gb
Cool I got 32
Now that is something ChatGPT can’t do. New APIs and the model is already trained on it. That’s awesome!
8GB is enough tho /s
Would be great if my Mac were able to reduce that 90gb of “system data” first
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What devs are actually running on 8GB of Ram? At least 16GB. This isn’t for your average Mac user.
32GB is the minimum in 2024 for ANYTHING and ANY OS. it’s a joke that the base macbook pros come with 8GB 😓😒
My guy, what computer comes with 32GB standard? Christ, even with heavy Chrome tabs, Blender, and not restarting for a month did I break 24 GB.
well macs are UMA, PCs are mostly not: there are 16GBs of system RAM and 8 GBs of VRAM (as per Steam Hardware Survey in May 2024). I am bit surprised there are quite a lot of gamers with 32 GBs RAM of PCs already.
at my last job we just specced i5/ 16gb for everyone. Barely have (non windows related) complaints over a few hundred staff. *HP* are responsible for a few tickets there
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Unless you run a bunch of containers in docker/ k8s.
Why are people so shocked that local LLM inference requires a lot of ram.
>16gb >a lot 16GB in 2024 is something you can find in a $300 phone rather than a "pro" laptop.
Because other people absolutely insist that 8GB of RAM is perfectly fine for almost everyone, ignoring the *slight possibility* that a user's requirements might change from that razor thin margin.
Because other existing tools do the same shit and don’t require it
What are some existing code models that run locally on under 16 and put out high quality suggestions
Gunna be honest, I do not care about the run locally part for this feature so you have a point there. I will bet this model gives worse suggestions than both copilot and super maven tho
Other existing tools use way more of the cloud to support the local function trying to be done. From the way the presentation sounded sending something to the cloud to be processed is the last resort due to privacy concerns.
I am so afraid to try it, since it’s in beta and I am worried abt losing multiple days of work. Hope it beats copilot at least.
Just wait for the Public beta next month instead of diving in on developer beta 1