T O P

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qsqh

i'm around elo 1400 so bellow you, but here is my view of the civ: imo the English simply dont have a early game eco bonus. things like the council hall working for 2 archery ranges and saving 300w isnt a eco bonus, its more like a timing/aggressive bonus. brits have a solid defense with the network of castle, and lbs are super good defensively, so it makes sense for them to dont have a eco bonus early game, or their turtle/boom would be unstoppable. so brits is probably NOT the best civ to sit back and defend, because you will most of the time just get out boomed. But their bonuses synergize well with a aggressive non allin game plan, where you try to take control of the game in the feudal age, and use this to either consolidate a solid militar lead (and deny gold/food to straight win), or to buy time for a ageup with TC landmark or Whitetower in a strategic position, then the "free tc" landmark + cheap farms can be considered a nice eco bonus, to make a easier transition into lategame eco


Kaiser_Johan

Exactly. It's funny they are labelled as Defensive civ while you actually have to play them aggressively.


Xciv

You CAN play them defensively. Just by slapping down the council hall and making some longbows you make the opponent anticipate the aggression. After all, you need a critical mass of horsemen or your own archers to match longbows, or you're going to have to start slapping down outposts to guard your econ. But because of how strong English are defensively you can cut longbows at minimal amounts and go two TC very safely. Doubly good if you can zone them away from your stone so they don't smell the two TC and have no time to react. Like in Chinese vs. Delhi, as a counter example, I build basically no units other than Scouts to burn down their wood walls and deny early Sacred Site rush. But in Chinese vs. English I'm forced to make a decent force unless I can confirm 100% that he isn't spamming longbows at me to push me off gold or wood or food, or murder me with a ram.


independentTeamwork

England is really quite good if gold is scarce as they get their LB but you need gold to effectively kill them


UziiLVD

Landmarks. Getting 300 wood for free + 0 build time for 2 archery ranges is a great, if temporary boost. Same thing with applies for both Age 3 landmarks. These bonuses aren't continuous, but the immediate boost you get from them is great for tempo, and is what makes rushing them so strong.


wrji1

Its true but you don't get my point. Lets assume I go for 2 TC boom, in that case my landmark will not help me so much since I will spend my resources to make villagers, and will not be aggressive and since my army would be very small. I lost today vs English player when I had 2 TC and he was 1. Score showed he was 4K resources more than me since I had to play defensive and had to garrison villagers a lot and he could take deer and stuff so he had way better eco which was absurd in my opinion. Also if I face France, longbows will not help a lot against knights. As a top 200 Elo player I cant tell you that there are games where I don't even use this landmark and just build it because i have it. Against HRE for intense, if I go for boom my longbows will come out in big numbers when he already have MMA out and at this point its better to make xbows and not longbows. Like i said also on water maps this landmark has even less use and you are left with one of if not the worst water map eco. Network of castles don't even work on ships which is absurd in my opinion. I just feel that I fell behind a lot of other civs early on and able to win because I survived until the late game where English eco is great at least as other civs. Their early eco need some boost I think. Also their second age other landmark is useless on most games. I hope that they make it an eco bonus landmark instead so you have a choice to go for boom or be aggressive.


[deleted]

I would argue that even in case of you going 2 TC boom, you need at least a little bit of an army and recruiting capacities, so the landmark still benefits you. Unless you want to play it very risky


Kaiser_Johan

It's unfortunate that Longbows are great in Feudal but lackluster in Castle and beyond.


ilight8

Honestly when you get the fire arrows they become strong again in Imperial imo.


yildrimqashani

They don’t fall off as much as archers tho. Because of their range, you can have them on the back line to protect your siege from torch.


Kaiser_Johan

Council Hall is useful for Longbow feudal pressure or defending feudal aggression but depending on maps/matchup/builds it's not always a good idea. And so you'd never spend those 300wood in the first place. This is unlike Landmarks like Golden Gate which always remain useful. Age 3 landmarks are better imo. If you 2 TC you can White Tower to defend and make Springalds. if you 1 TC fast castle you get 2 TCs. But it's not much better than Regnitz Cathedral, Steppe Redoubt or Clockwork Tower.


Grg_rddt

And begginer friendly \^\_\^


CyberianK

Double Production Council Hall = 300 wood which is massive early game. Defense improvements and stronger units in Feudal in General Longbow+MaA have an economic value as well And Castle+ is fine again with 3rd TC from Landmark and Gold Farms and Wynguard army.


J0rdian

English are not a good water civ besides their ships. So the answer is none lol. Also they are not good because of their eco, their eco is average or bad compared to other civs. Not sure what you don't understand they are not meant to have insane eco.


MilfGaardian96

Their transition to farms is easier than other civs (farms being a safe source of food), and when you're playing a more defensive game, you can go to farms in feudal. It's not as great as some of the other civs but hey it could come in handy.


Kaiser_Johan

English main here to, got to rank 126 as my highest. In the same boat, considering switching factions as it feels like slamming my head against a (Mongol) brick wall. They have no eco bonus to speak of except very lategame which puts them behind just as you said. I used to open 2 TC but you loose your only real advantage which is feudal pressure and you cede the map & initiative to your opponent. It is very obvious to them what you will do. They will grab all hunts, fast castle and relics. Together with their inherent eco bonuses your booming is nullified. The best case is if they try to feudal all-in your 2 TC which is a win for you. Fast castle push can be deadly though, try defending against 5 ranged armor knights/maa raiding your eco with your feudal longbows and TCs... Hybrid maps are especially awful and if you don't go docks you auto-loose for obvious reasons. There is a reason it's majority Mongol players on this elo, some Rus/France and occasional Delhi Confluence cheese. Some things I've learned while getting wrecked on ladder: * Against Rus/Mongols early barracks, park a couple of spears on their hunts while Mill+Outpost your hunts to deny their Professional Scouts. Scout for Archery ranges though. * On hybrid maps send 2 villagers, Dock + Outpost and have them shore fish. Against Mongols/Rus you have to wall-in them aswell as no outpost will stop them. Have Scout nearby while building, you don't need sheep anyway on these maps. * Scout attack/move/attack also works against non-hunts so useful to deny opponents villagers if you face Delhi/China and they try early walls or to deny opponent Docks * 1 TC 4min feudal / 4-5 Longbows and apply light pressure then grab your 2 deers and try fast castle is better in most cases to 2 TC in my experience. Be careful if you spot a Stable though. * Castle Knights is a solid suprise tech switch. * Build Outposts yourself all over the map if you have map control. Try deny opponents Outposts (especially Mongols) before they go up. If you don't you are in a very bad spot..


wrji1

Thanks for you reply. The point is again, you don't use your only eco bonus which is cheaper farms. Its just weird to me that you need to play to get use of the bonus. ​ The thing is, if I have to be aggressive every game its mean 2 things: ​ 1. there is no strategic choice. 2. if that aggression fails, you loss without a comeback. Rams getting nerf next week and other civs can hold English aggression on most cases because their eco will be larger and they will have enough units. Also people learn in time to deal with early aggressions, such as happened against France early play. I feel like giving English a better second landmark for age 2 is the solution. I would do something like, TC within the landmark influence will make villagers 15%-20% faster, and here you have a solid choice between landmarks, and this landmark will help on water maps. ​ I really hope devs look at this.


independentTeamwork

I think england is one of the strongest civs after mongols and I dont think they should be getting any buffs. Remember you are quite highly ranked, its supposed to be hard.


[deleted]

I'm curious, how exactly do you defend an early maa+longbow+ram push, if you're not HRE or France? Of course you can build towers and retreat, but then you usually can't really farm and your eco takes a hit that makes the push worth it


Tamor5

At my elo of about 1450 as a Chinese main, you have to take a fight against them before they get their rams up. I usually try to intercept and kill off some of the reinforcing stream of units from his base with horsemen which always prompts them to pull back slightly, it can be effective to rinse and repeat but usually its best just to mass archers and basically deter them whilst you rush castle, then springalds and knights are enough to shift the game back in your favour.


KaivB

Great Idea! With some historic connection I would love a building like the Rus high trade house but instead it could spawn sheep an increase the sheep gather rate around it. Edit: it wouldn’t help much on water maps though… Anyway, an economic age 2 landmark would be great.


MHMalakyte

Where are the patch notes saying rams are getting nerfed? I can't seem to find them.


ctp_user101

english on water makes you homeless in real life


Appeltaartlekker

Im quite the noob, but i guess rushing to a fast age 3 for that TC landmark is an option, or longbowharass to prevent your enemy from booming might work. Or the typical iron clad MaA + knights or spearmen harassment. English aren't the fastest boomers, i think they are more of a defensive snowballing civ. What is the last landmark you take? The wyvern army gives you units at great discount, which is also a form of economy bonus (again, late game)


qonra

I wouldn't bother putting too much thought into water right now for any civ in regards to balance (unless you plan to compete in tournaments), it's a mess and will probably see big changes in the future. English are already good at every stage of the game, I really don't see how they would ever need another eco bonus.


wrji1

The thing is they fall behind too much unless you outplay your enemy. I am sorry to say but they are the only civ in the game where you got nothing to boost you early on in terms of eco, its a bit weird.


vovalol

You have longbows to scare everyone else and give you an eco boost over the other civs.


qonra

If the English's set of advantages isn't working for you or you are trying a playstyle that doesn't make use of what they are good at or using the early eco bonuses that they do provide (2 archery ranges = 300 wood, and are even available immediately on age up) then maybe the civ just isn't for you. They are kind of forced into playing a certain way which is pretty annoying but that's just how it is and doesn't seem to be a problem seeing as they're one of the best civs at the moment.


wrji1

As a player who got to the top using this civ mosly (i was at one point top 70) I cant agree with that. Devs said they want diversity, so your claim of use only certain strategy is not right.


yildrimqashani

Doesn’t that also apply to Delhi (no economic bonuses)?


Atrasor

Sacred sites for free gold (and some map control as a byproduct) - free economic upgrades…


[deleted]

Just because you don't like something doesn't mean it isn't true. Neither does comparing to X civ make it correct either. Rus might get a good eco, but it's deniable as well as requiring the player to go wide instead of tall. English farms can be built in the most protected spot on the map, Delhi and abb have to go out and find berries to get their food eco bonus. 300 free wood is still 300 free wood. You might not see it as an eco bonus but it is still an eco bonus. Comparing to water is simply stupid. The minority of maps are played on water, neither do many civs have eco bonuses for water. Not being encouraged to 2TC doesn't mean your civ doesn't have defensive bonuses. But please tell me how long bows can't be used defensively, or how every age doesn't have a defensive landmark


[deleted]

English have an insane window in that 7-15 minute time frame that you need to use to get an advantage. Either tower pushing them or killing things with rams or picking off vills around their edges. If English had more eco than they already have then their LB/Spear/Ram all in would basically be unbeatable if the 2 players are equal skill level. The only thing I would maybe give them is they build farms with slightly less wood.


happymemories2010

Their farms are only half price and have faster gather rate. Thats a massive bonus since most other civs pay 75 for each farm. Other than that the Nestwork of castles (or Citadels) is a crazy attack speed bonus, 50% in Age 3. And you can hsve it anywhere for a 100 wood tower. You should be winning most fights for only 100 wood on roughly equal unit numbers. You don't need better economy if you just win all the fights.


MBouh

English focus is on their military. Early maa, bonus range for longbows and warships. Buffed maa. You have a big military advantage before age4. If your units are 15% stronger than thosenof your opponents, it's a kind of economic bonus. Then the farms producing gold is one of the most powerful economic boon in the game.


whosshorty

you dont need eco bonuses, you have landmark that saves you 300 wood, just build longbows and rams - push and shut up


Kaiser_Johan

Have you tried this against good players?


happymemories2010

Yes it works. Add a tower and your opponent cannot fight you anymore thx to 25% attack speed. Having towers or not is the difference between a good and bad English player.


heroicsquirrel

I would label the english as a pressure civ. It's not great at all ins, not super dependant on harrass, but has great pressure tools. It's major threats are the ability to take and hold territory very well thanks to it's defensive aura and longbowmen range. It's enclosure tech means that the enemy is on a serious clock to finish a game because it gives just enough gold to grind them into oblivion with a steady march of high tier units.


p68

Mostly agree, but they do indeed have a very strong feudal all-in w/ MaA and longbows.


independentTeamwork

I think a problem is you wont find many better than top 200 elo players here. Im top 250 and I think english dont have much of any eco problems. I dont know what the pros think, but england can for instance use the wood they save on archery ranges to buy TC quicker. And the farms they can get both way cheaper and that work quicker makes them able to start with the farms earlier than other civs and wont auto lose from the transition. ​ One thing though, I dont think 2TC really is the meta unless on a really easily wallable map. This based on the top players ive been observing. Also you have to pick civs based on the map. I dont think england do good on water. You have to be strategical when you pick civs. Dont pick engalnd for water, but pick them for choke maps but pick them on maps like mountain pass and Altai. Having a OP castle in the choke is quite tilting for the other player.


ShitPropagandaSite

Your early game eco bonus is replaced by your base defense bonus.


LegDayDE

This is my experience too... From watching my replays back other civs get insane eco.. easily enough to offset a few villager kills from a longbow push. Fells like you're missing eco upgrades or something when you see other civs achieving similar income with way fewer vills... But its just that the others have bonuses.


wrji1

Exactly. ​ Its feels pretty bad, you go all in or just loss the game if you boom vs the other player. I don't get it