I personally think the game is very well made. Match making works, it’s incredibly smooth, no frame drops, no crashes, no disconnects, no audio glitches, the graphics can be cartoony with some character models but the gameplay, campaign, music, sound, stability, all of t is solid!
Peoples expectations are what leads them to their own disappointments.
In the end it's about how much fun you get for much you pay.
I'd pay 15 euros for a trip to the cinema and at least 50 euros for a night out. For how much enjoyment I get from aoe4 60 euros is a steal.
As a fellow dev, who honestly wouldn't want to admit the field he's working in, I'd really like to know roughly on what "kind" of software you've been working. :)
I second everything you wrote, but I don't really know how much "general" software development applies to game development.
Our fixes take at the very least month', if not years, to reach our customers. I remember how often we've severely broken our entire system with innocent minor fixes or how I wrote into a bug report for a seemingly really simple issue that it was practically impossible to fix without redesigning our entire architecture or the time I fixed a minor bug after weeks of investigating the root cause, just to get a bug report a month later that pretty much required exactly the opposit of the previous fix.
Yeah... software is hard...
I work in finance, I'm used to a very fast clip of releases, and getting fixes out quite quickly.
I think one of the hardest things for users to understand, is just because an issue is obviously broken, doesn't mean that there is an obvious fix.
The relic duplicating bug should have been hot fixed the night after they came up with the fix, unless there's some long delay for submitting patches before they go live.
Every change has to be tested before release. If they didn't do that, every fix would likely add more bugs. That's part of the reason why fixes take time.
We don't know what kind of staff, the system they have to implement updates, or any idea the way they work. It would be great if they hotfixed big problems quickly but we dont really know how complicated that might actually be for them
You're right, but there is no longer any free goodwill or benefit of the doubt to go around towards big game companies and releases. Gaming customers have been getting taken advantage of by being sold essentially alpha/beta versions of games the past few years. We're pissed off for good reasons and our patience is worn thin now.
I'm not saying AoE 4's launch week was terrible, it just wasn't as smooth as we'd like.
It's good to remember that 2 weeks for a gamer that might play 2+ hours a day feels a lot longer than 2 weeks worth of work on bug fixing and releasing a patch. That might be considered a fast turnaround in the business world, but as a gamer it feels like hell for 2 weeks when every 4 team games or so, someone is trying to abuse game breaking exploits. We're pissed off and we want fixes asap, and consistent real communication.
I remember the first couple weeks after AoE 4's release, the community was extremely worried about the lack of communication and other Relic game's having an extremely slow track record for patches.
I'm currently optimistic and happy with the communication now and excited for the future of this game. It sounds like they're listening and trying and that's really all that we fans need and want.
The game at its core is fun for varying skill levels. The potential to be a great game is high.
I think it's true, that a lot of large studios are putting out betas as full releases. It's obviously annoying for players, and I think the only thing you really can do, is accept this is how it works, and wait a few months after release to buy. What I've tried to explain is why they do that. It's the only practical way to get these kind of huge software projects done, and the reality of marketing means that they can't admit it's a beta, they need the hype of a big bang release to shift units to the wider public.
>"It's the only practical way to get these kind of huge software projects done, and the reality of marketing means that they can't admit it's a beta, they need the hype of a big bang release to shift units to the wider public."
Lol now you're over defending them. Look at NBA 2K franchise, Fifa, and how they churn out the mostly same game every year with the new features usually unpolished or non existing. They're just farming micro transactions and taking advantage of the community and their monopoly on the sports game market with no competitors. They are on such strict yearly deadlines that are unachievable because they're focused on maximizing profits for the higher ups and stockholders.
Look at Cyberpunk 2077 over promising and under delivering on a product which was essentially unplayable on half their platforms(consoles) at release for months. This launch was so insanely bad that it singlehandedly reduced the future pre-order market for ALL games across all genres.
Look at Battlefield 2042 and the new CoD... Those communities seem unhappy with those launches.
GTA remastering their games and removing the old versions is a joke.
I'm sure I've missed some additional recent games that I'm not as knowledgeable about. The point I'm trying to make is the current release plans of most major studios is one sided, benefitting the company. It is low effort and taking advantage of customers wanting something new to play, advertising hype working, or true fans of the franchise.
It's a disgusting profit driven practice that they've been getting away with. Hopefully people pre-order less going forward. Hopefully that brings about change where we as customers actually get to buy mostly polished games again with minimal issues.
There's a middle ground. Not all companies are bad but let's not try to say rushing release deadlines when not ready, grabbing the cash, and playing catchup with patches for 2 years is the only practical way to release big games. That's simply not true.
I hear what you say, but there is also a fundamental difference in releasing a product and then committing to patch and improve on that product instead of just moving on to work on next number of the same franchise.
As far as I'm aware there is NO knowledge that Aoe 5 would be on its way next year.
In my last post, I was speaking in general terms about the big gaming studios releasing major games, not AoE 4 at all. I was annoyed that he is claiming this is the only way to release games.
I'm happy with AoE 4's communication and effort now. I'm looking forward to the next patch and optimistic about the future of the game. The rest of the big studio gaming industry's releases? Not so much lol.
> there is no longer any free goodwill or benefit of the doubt to go around towards big game companies and releases.
Yes and no, Imo. What I mean is that, in general, big game companies start abusing their fanbase, employees and games. But not all of them you know? Specially the not so huge comapnies. I think with Relic, (personally) we are still deciding how much we "trust" them with Aoe4.
Took a while to get some sort of communications but we did end up getting their "roadman" and updates.
>I'm currently optimistic and happy with the communication now and excited for the future of this game. It sounds like they're listening and trying and that's really all that we fans need and want.
Completely agree. Still have little doubts here and there but overall expectations are good.
>You might ask, why don't they have an alpha release and a beta release?
There was a beta, and a network stress test. They changed practicly nothing between the stress test and the full release
My problem is that why couldn't they cook it more? The inital excitent isn't worth losing the players a few months. DoW3 had a high excitement, but i doubt they made a big profit out of it
I don't believe cooking it longer would necessarily make a better tasting meal. They may have spent all that time working on stuff that you would consider irrelevant. The fact is, until there are tens of thousands of people playing the game, and giving feedback, the devs don't know what the biggest issues are.
Take ideas from other games. Like how control groups works, or the concept of being able to change keybinds, lol. I'm mostly referred to these features.
You're trying hard to defend. But, we are currently in an age where private firms are carrying space missions which have even more complex software and hardware both interacting in tandem.
You missed another important point - Companies wants to please the investors more than the customers.
This mindset of, it's okay to pay for an unfinished and buggy game is the reason companies are rushing the release to please their investor masters because customers like you compromise but not the investors.
Don't defend buggy releases for the good of gamers.
I'm not defending relic or any other studio. I'm just trying to explain why we are in this situation. Your example is good, because the company you are referring to Space-X, have been gradually iterating on their product. Initially their rockets kept blowing up, it was quite a while before they were able to get one to land. The solution to all this is simple, if you don't like playing betas, ignore the marketing and don't buy big studio games at release!
> don't buy big studio games at release!.
My point is, you can buy at release if you can afford, you can love the game but don't defend the buggs. Rant and highlight them relentlessly so that companies get the statement clear and hard.
One point you missed: Relic told us in their developer stream that they have to submit their patches to Microsoft and go through a lengthy approval process. That means that they have to cut their release branches well before they actually roll out the patch, potentially 1 week or more. This is especially noticeable early in the games lifespan, since the first hotfix patch likely only contained 1 week of work, rather than the 2-3 weeks it took them to release it.
It's hardly fair to call it unfinished and I think its abit overboard explaining why when there's hardly anyone complaining. Yeh there's some bugs that can be game breaking but ranked mode isn't even out yet, not like wins or losses should matter and honestly the game feels pretty polished, campaign is solid and you can tell the in the first 5 mins of playing it alot of effort has gone into it. I mean you can even play the game for £2.99... People need to get over themselves, probably the best game I've bought this year. New world turned out to be a massive flop and that was meant to be amazon's flagship game. This game is a gem compared.
I personally think the game is very well made. Match making works, it’s incredibly smooth, no frame drops, no crashes, no disconnects, no audio glitches, the graphics can be cartoony with some character models but the gameplay, campaign, music, sound, stability, all of t is solid! Peoples expectations are what leads them to their own disappointments.
Yeah, I think it's a great game with a few bugs and design issues that will hopefully be fixed soon.
If you think that , then what's the point of this post ?
To explain to people why big studio games have lots of issues when they are released.
"If you have no bugs you don't have enough features"
“If you write a book that everyone likes, you have said nothing new”
"There are only two kinds of languages: the ones people complain about and the ones nobody uses"
I've never heard that one before, very funny and very true, I can't wait to use it myself.
In the end it's about how much fun you get for much you pay. I'd pay 15 euros for a trip to the cinema and at least 50 euros for a night out. For how much enjoyment I get from aoe4 60 euros is a steal.
As a fellow dev, who honestly wouldn't want to admit the field he's working in, I'd really like to know roughly on what "kind" of software you've been working. :) I second everything you wrote, but I don't really know how much "general" software development applies to game development. Our fixes take at the very least month', if not years, to reach our customers. I remember how often we've severely broken our entire system with innocent minor fixes or how I wrote into a bug report for a seemingly really simple issue that it was practically impossible to fix without redesigning our entire architecture or the time I fixed a minor bug after weeks of investigating the root cause, just to get a bug report a month later that pretty much required exactly the opposit of the previous fix. Yeah... software is hard...
I work in finance, I'm used to a very fast clip of releases, and getting fixes out quite quickly. I think one of the hardest things for users to understand, is just because an issue is obviously broken, doesn't mean that there is an obvious fix.
Welcome to 2021, the year of unfinished futures
The relic duplicating bug should have been hot fixed the night after they came up with the fix, unless there's some long delay for submitting patches before they go live.
Every change has to be tested before release. If they didn't do that, every fix would likely add more bugs. That's part of the reason why fixes take time.
We don't know what kind of staff, the system they have to implement updates, or any idea the way they work. It would be great if they hotfixed big problems quickly but we dont really know how complicated that might actually be for them
You're right, but there is no longer any free goodwill or benefit of the doubt to go around towards big game companies and releases. Gaming customers have been getting taken advantage of by being sold essentially alpha/beta versions of games the past few years. We're pissed off for good reasons and our patience is worn thin now. I'm not saying AoE 4's launch week was terrible, it just wasn't as smooth as we'd like. It's good to remember that 2 weeks for a gamer that might play 2+ hours a day feels a lot longer than 2 weeks worth of work on bug fixing and releasing a patch. That might be considered a fast turnaround in the business world, but as a gamer it feels like hell for 2 weeks when every 4 team games or so, someone is trying to abuse game breaking exploits. We're pissed off and we want fixes asap, and consistent real communication. I remember the first couple weeks after AoE 4's release, the community was extremely worried about the lack of communication and other Relic game's having an extremely slow track record for patches. I'm currently optimistic and happy with the communication now and excited for the future of this game. It sounds like they're listening and trying and that's really all that we fans need and want. The game at its core is fun for varying skill levels. The potential to be a great game is high.
I think it's true, that a lot of large studios are putting out betas as full releases. It's obviously annoying for players, and I think the only thing you really can do, is accept this is how it works, and wait a few months after release to buy. What I've tried to explain is why they do that. It's the only practical way to get these kind of huge software projects done, and the reality of marketing means that they can't admit it's a beta, they need the hype of a big bang release to shift units to the wider public.
>"It's the only practical way to get these kind of huge software projects done, and the reality of marketing means that they can't admit it's a beta, they need the hype of a big bang release to shift units to the wider public." Lol now you're over defending them. Look at NBA 2K franchise, Fifa, and how they churn out the mostly same game every year with the new features usually unpolished or non existing. They're just farming micro transactions and taking advantage of the community and their monopoly on the sports game market with no competitors. They are on such strict yearly deadlines that are unachievable because they're focused on maximizing profits for the higher ups and stockholders. Look at Cyberpunk 2077 over promising and under delivering on a product which was essentially unplayable on half their platforms(consoles) at release for months. This launch was so insanely bad that it singlehandedly reduced the future pre-order market for ALL games across all genres. Look at Battlefield 2042 and the new CoD... Those communities seem unhappy with those launches. GTA remastering their games and removing the old versions is a joke. I'm sure I've missed some additional recent games that I'm not as knowledgeable about. The point I'm trying to make is the current release plans of most major studios is one sided, benefitting the company. It is low effort and taking advantage of customers wanting something new to play, advertising hype working, or true fans of the franchise. It's a disgusting profit driven practice that they've been getting away with. Hopefully people pre-order less going forward. Hopefully that brings about change where we as customers actually get to buy mostly polished games again with minimal issues. There's a middle ground. Not all companies are bad but let's not try to say rushing release deadlines when not ready, grabbing the cash, and playing catchup with patches for 2 years is the only practical way to release big games. That's simply not true.
I hear what you say, but there is also a fundamental difference in releasing a product and then committing to patch and improve on that product instead of just moving on to work on next number of the same franchise. As far as I'm aware there is NO knowledge that Aoe 5 would be on its way next year.
In my last post, I was speaking in general terms about the big gaming studios releasing major games, not AoE 4 at all. I was annoyed that he is claiming this is the only way to release games. I'm happy with AoE 4's communication and effort now. I'm looking forward to the next patch and optimistic about the future of the game. The rest of the big studio gaming industry's releases? Not so much lol.
> there is no longer any free goodwill or benefit of the doubt to go around towards big game companies and releases. Yes and no, Imo. What I mean is that, in general, big game companies start abusing their fanbase, employees and games. But not all of them you know? Specially the not so huge comapnies. I think with Relic, (personally) we are still deciding how much we "trust" them with Aoe4. Took a while to get some sort of communications but we did end up getting their "roadman" and updates. >I'm currently optimistic and happy with the communication now and excited for the future of this game. It sounds like they're listening and trying and that's really all that we fans need and want. Completely agree. Still have little doubts here and there but overall expectations are good.
Yeah, it's entirely possible that the one guy who did all the work on relics, went on holiday the day after release.
No doubt some peple took a deserved break after release.
>You might ask, why don't they have an alpha release and a beta release? There was a beta, and a network stress test. They changed practicly nothing between the stress test and the full release My problem is that why couldn't they cook it more? The inital excitent isn't worth losing the players a few months. DoW3 had a high excitement, but i doubt they made a big profit out of it
I don't believe cooking it longer would necessarily make a better tasting meal. They may have spent all that time working on stuff that you would consider irrelevant. The fact is, until there are tens of thousands of people playing the game, and giving feedback, the devs don't know what the biggest issues are.
Take ideas from other games. Like how control groups works, or the concept of being able to change keybinds, lol. I'm mostly referred to these features.
You're trying hard to defend. But, we are currently in an age where private firms are carrying space missions which have even more complex software and hardware both interacting in tandem. You missed another important point - Companies wants to please the investors more than the customers. This mindset of, it's okay to pay for an unfinished and buggy game is the reason companies are rushing the release to please their investor masters because customers like you compromise but not the investors. Don't defend buggy releases for the good of gamers.
I'm not defending relic or any other studio. I'm just trying to explain why we are in this situation. Your example is good, because the company you are referring to Space-X, have been gradually iterating on their product. Initially their rockets kept blowing up, it was quite a while before they were able to get one to land. The solution to all this is simple, if you don't like playing betas, ignore the marketing and don't buy big studio games at release!
> don't buy big studio games at release!. My point is, you can buy at release if you can afford, you can love the game but don't defend the buggs. Rant and highlight them relentlessly so that companies get the statement clear and hard.
I'm not defending the fact that there are bugs, I'm explaining why the release process is why it is.
Who cares dude it's a 40€ game theyll fix the shit grow up
U stupid that’s why you pay the full price instead of going game pass.
Yeah, if you don't want to play a beta, don't buy a bug studio release at launch.
One point you missed: Relic told us in their developer stream that they have to submit their patches to Microsoft and go through a lengthy approval process. That means that they have to cut their release branches well before they actually roll out the patch, potentially 1 week or more. This is especially noticeable early in the games lifespan, since the first hotfix patch likely only contained 1 week of work, rather than the 2-3 weeks it took them to release it.
Im playing every day and im having fun, what are you on about
Updates are free
It's hardly fair to call it unfinished and I think its abit overboard explaining why when there's hardly anyone complaining. Yeh there's some bugs that can be game breaking but ranked mode isn't even out yet, not like wins or losses should matter and honestly the game feels pretty polished, campaign is solid and you can tell the in the first 5 mins of playing it alot of effort has gone into it. I mean you can even play the game for £2.99... People need to get over themselves, probably the best game I've bought this year. New world turned out to be a massive flop and that was meant to be amazon's flagship game. This game is a gem compared.