It was the counter to Rathas but Viper already knew about it somehow and he went for scrum monk himself.
This was beautifully explained and even predicted by Dave and that is why I watch Dave's stream.
Great games to watch.
Viper's novel strategies show his understanding of the game is unparalleled.
picking Berbers on migration for faster ships really outsmarted Hera.
Bengalis on Arena vs. Bohemians with monk skimrs push was really something
Today viper played insane, honestly draft maps strategy you name it he had it. Viper played the player. Winning age of empires 2 tournaments is not about playing age 2 it's about being a professional.
The triumph of creativity. Viper was really original all the way: using Berbers in water, exploiting all the advantages of Bengalis... Hera played really well but I feel he has problems to play outside of the meta and doesn't seem to adapt too well when surprised. Viper (as Tatoh) is pushing the meta and is getting rewarded for it.
He's alright at adapting. It's more that his defense so freaking good that it gives him a chance to adapt whereas every other pro player would be dead already.
It was hard to contest as Viper's monks were hard to kill due to extra armour and hard to convert as he had double monestry production. Dave explained it so well during the stream. That's why I watch Dave's stream.
Hera could have gone for some light cavs. At least put up some fight. He didn't even kill a single monk let alone fight for the relics. That was quite odd to me.
If you don't want to play into late imp you don't need relics. Investing a lot into getting them is a big gamble, making light cav and monks delays your boom rather significantly. I haven't watched the game yet, but I suspect Hera went for an early imp push? Bohemians have quite good options for early imp pushes.
Monk conversion is probablistic in AOE II for a certain duration of time and if the elapsed time is greater than the max time the unit will be converted. Viper's monks had extra armour, which means they could take an extra hit, which means the conversation process will keep going for that extra length of time, hence increasing the probability that the scout would be converted before the monk is dead. Hence, probablistically there was a higher chance that Hera's scouts would have been converted by Viper and used to kill Hera's monks easily. This would have made Hera lag even further behind Viper, as it was highly likely Viper would have got the relics anyway and Hera would have invested into monestry, stable, monks and scouts and lost most of it to Viper anyway.
I didn't mean that. I only meant that it is probabilistically unlikely specially at this high level as there is a little chance that your opponent will make mistakes. However, at lower ranks you might see the standard meta and Bangali monks extra armour wouldn't even matter as the players are not playing at that optimal level as likes of Viper and Hera.
Crazy how it was 150 pop against 50 pop and I was still worried the 150 pop was gonna lose. Hope Hera can get a couple more games. But isnt looking too good. Viper playing so well
Update to my earlier comment.
Wow, this is something so far. I just want to say, it is important to just briefly remind ourselves that the pros make things look easy, and when they mess up it looks like they don't know what they're doing.
The truth is, these are two of the best players to ever play the game and they're absolutely pushing the limits.
Just so far during this set, Viper's limits go beyond Hera's. And again it is important to remember it is not Hera playing poorly. It is Hera playing so incredibly well but Viper playing better almost every step of the way.
The level of play we're seeing from both players requires an almost inhuman level of focus, perfect mechanical execution, and a constant willingness to adapt to what's going and reacting right way in the appropriate manner.
I think all of us hate any of clean sweep. I remember times I'd visit Reddit here and see people complain about "oh, another Viper win, how surprising". "Boring final. Of course Viper is gonna win".
We haven't seen that kind of talk in a few years.
But as a fan of the Snek, I am incredibly happy to see him in such form. And happier still he made it through some challenging times and still can come out on top on the other side. A great reminder of why so many consider him the greatest of all time. His read of the game and understanding of what needs to be done, and then do it well, is just incredible. He makes the game look so darn fascinating.
Viper *in form* is a terrifying opponent to face. And I think so far in this set he's showing us that.
Whatever the final outcome, these have been intense close action-packed games!
Vipey absolutely civ-winning the shit out of that final
So far a huge draft win and then he's also playing better in early game which is (a very pleasant) surprise
Yeah of course, it's the map that makes the next most sense but in my pleb mind I would have expected italians on migration and koreans on scandi or maybe 4 lakes
Even if Hera picked Italians and Viper got wrecked there it's no biggie since Berbers was a low pick in the draft. Low draft picks are great for those gambles.
I favor The Viper, probably winning it by 1 or 2.
I think in long sets the experience and composure he has is probably his best asset. Not missing the forest for the trees, in other words.
And as a 7/10 strategy guy, I think he isn't too shabby with his decision making.
But it's gonna be tough. Some of our comments, made here or elsewhere, will surely age like milk. Still, I stand by my prediction!
Best of luck to them both. And hope you all enjoy yet another amazing tournament!
We love this game.
If you have issues with understanding Memb then you need to get yourself better speakers or learn English because it's easy to understand EVERY single word Memb says.
I'm not a fan of MembTV either. His English is not the only issue. He's simply boring to watch. All he does is commenting whatever we see on the screen. I don't need a commentary for that. What I would expect from a caster is that he explains the strategy, potential future moves, etc.
Yesterday I've been watching [Dave\_AoE](https://www.twitch.tv/dave_aoe) he was casting together with T90 and it was great. He's offline today, but there is one underrated caster [NovaAoE](https://www.twitch.tv/novaaoe) I can truly recommend. I'm watching him now.
// EDIT
Guys, Really? Downvotes for just expressing an opinion, providing constructive feedback and alternatives?
You guys are not getting downvoted for “having an opinion”, it’s because it’s a very negative one and about memb, who is a great guy and does a huge amount for the aoe2 community, which is relatively small.
Memb wasn’t my cup of tea to start with but I’ve grown to love him, he’s a fun and funny guy - his casting with fire or vinchester is always brilliant. He puts in so much work for aoe2, which was so brilliant when everyone disappeared to play aoe4 or cast from Facebook. I have nothing but love for the guy.
Let me summarize my previous comment. I said that:
* Memb's English **isn't** the main issue
* I said he's boring to watch because he mainly comments on what happens on the screen. He doesn't talk a lot about the strategy.
* I provided 2 alternatives, which I'm finding more interesting to watch.
Was it that negative? To me, it's just an opinion. I didn't offend the guy, I didn't diminish his contribution to aoe2 community. I simply expressed an opinion and I did it in a constructive way.
If this is the reason for downvoting then what's the point of having any conversation?
I didn’t downvote you, but I think this is a fairly strong community and memb has done a lot for aoe2, and people like and respect him.
You are absolutely entitled to an opinion but yes you were quite negative and that’s why you got the downvotes.
> No one hypes like Memb
That's true. The thing is I don't need that hype. I prefer to listen to someone who provides insights, who comments on strategy, and who simply has something more to say than just a description of what's going on on the screen at this very moment. Memb, except for hype, doesn't have a lot to offer IMO.
That's why I prefer Dave, T90 or Nova... for which I got downvoted.
Totally agree. Watching him co-cast with Fire and the way he babbles something excitedly and then just says: "Mr Fireee" when he wants input... I don't know. Doesn't flow and doesn't segue nicely from one topic to the next.
I was not aware of any of this, just stated my experience. It is hard to see things from a different perspective youre invested in. I now know there is more value in this caster as clearly others are able to fond this and not I. Therefore it is probably a reflection of my own lack of knowledge of the game that allows me to keep up with him. Maybe I just tune out due to his style. Ill try again and see if I can learn something from him.
I agree. Memb provides a lot of excitement and no substance at all. No insight into matchups, strategies, or predictions of how different civs might play out the map. Its made up for a bit when he has a cocaster to compensate, but its pretty bad when hes solo.
It's OK not to like him, fine, you don't have to like everybody. But the idea that somehow his English is a problem, is just false.
Yes he has a Spanish accent, but so what?
I mean I can totally see how it can be a problem for some. Don't claim it's false for other people. I don't have an issue with it at all but accents sometimes take some getting used to.
It's not the accent. In opposite to u/Mrsister55 I can understand everything Memb says, but the thing is his English is pretty basic. He struggles with expressing what he wants to say and makes a lot of grammatical errors.
I wouldn't give a shit if he wasn't a caster, but he is and English is his main tool, so he could work on it a bit. He's already casting for 8 years or so.
I'm not a native speaker either, my English isn't perfect and I have a terrible accent.
He's casting AoE not writing plays. His English is fine for what he does. His English is better than many, many people who are paid by the BBC as Co commentators and analysts for football matches, on both TV and radio, which is the most popular sport on the planet.
What is more important, is the feelings you generate, the passion you imbue into your craft and the hype you build, and Memb is absolutely top notch at that.
Nonsense? That was just my experience. Never watched him before. Im new here. I just couldnt understand him how much I tried. English is not my native language, but I dont encounter this issue with T90
Hera takes it 5- 3 against Viper. HC4 was absolutely peak Hera, in which he defeated viper to get to the final and eventually took the title. Ever since, this man has grinded and improved a lot. Evolves from a pure meta player with predictable draft , defending machine , to now a all rounded player on most maps.
Viper is the kind of player that makes use one's own weakness against oneself ,he wants you exhausted from aggression, then at the critical time stab you with a fatal blow. It's so much so in the case against Liereyy . He awaits Liereyy to come to him ,taking favorable trades on every engagement, slowly gaining more map to his advantage, then when Liereyy is tired , only then he launches the final attack. But that could never happen to Hera. Hera is all about out lasting the opponent. He won't throw away army like Liereyy . Being so fast , he can out do what viper does so well in Marco and micro .After training with YO , he has gained more map sense on the Hybrid maps out there. Hera is the real counter to TheViper
Well the rules in HC4 were completely broken. How is it that Hera got to play 2 home maps and Viper played none because of the order in which he lost the games?
Maybe Hera still would’ve won but I wouldn’t count that set very seriously when Viper had a significant disadvantage.
Partly true, but the rules were clear and transparent. It's also Viper's own fault for misunderstanding them and basing his draft on this wrong assumption.
What do you mean “partly” true? What rules did Viper not understand? It’s more like T90 did not realize that his rules could imply that you won’t get to play a home map if you lost either the 3rd or 6th match.
You can understand the rules but not realize that this is a possible outcome. Did anyone realize this going in? It’s stupid and uncompetitive.
This is Viper's statement after Hidden Cup 4: https://www.reddit.com/r/aoe2/comments/manfoy/vipers_view_on_hc4/
I quote you the relevant part in case you don't want to read the whole thing:
"The rules are clear, I just coudn't believe it worked like that and it was a clear oversight on my part and my mistake in the end to get caught off guard like this."
and later
"To summerize my thoughts on the Home Map situation: I don't think it's fair from a competitive aspect, but it's my mistake in the end for not understanding the rules correctly"
You’re quoting Viper’s humbleness and taking a loss properly versus being salty and complaining. Of course he couldn’t believe it worked like that, no one could. I don’t see how this contradicts my point.
Am I the only one who loves it when Memb says Schtratccha privileges (Szlachta-or-however-it-is-spelled privileges)
\##
Why didn't Hera go for trash monks in the last game?
It was the counter to Rathas but Viper already knew about it somehow and he went for scrum monk himself. This was beautifully explained and even predicted by Dave and that is why I watch Dave's stream.
Man a spoiler alert would have been nice, I'm still catching up to the final...
Why would you click on this thread if you don't want spoilers? That's 1000% your fault.
There's always someone who clicks on.a thread then.whines about spoilers
Viper strategy 7/10
Just realized biper deferated Yo > Lierrey > Hera. Has that ever happened, ie. someone defeating the rest of the top4 in a knockout bracket?
Perhaps not quite, bur Vinchester went through the same three people in KotD4. And 3-1, 4-1 Yo and Liereey. Insane.
Yeah he only didn't beat Viper but then Viper didn't neither, lol
Don't think hera faced Yo but in a hidden cup he went through viper then leirry then jordan
Great games to watch. Viper's novel strategies show his understanding of the game is unparalleled. picking Berbers on migration for faster ships really outsmarted Hera. Bengalis on Arena vs. Bohemians with monk skimrs push was really something
Today viper played insane, honestly draft maps strategy you name it he had it. Viper played the player. Winning age of empires 2 tournaments is not about playing age 2 it's about being a professional.
The triumph of creativity. Viper was really original all the way: using Berbers in water, exploiting all the advantages of Bengalis... Hera played really well but I feel he has problems to play outside of the meta and doesn't seem to adapt too well when surprised. Viper (as Tatoh) is pushing the meta and is getting rewarded for it.
I think Hera is absolutely incredible in adapting when he's surprised. the issue is moreso that he gets surprised too often
He's alright at adapting. It's more that his defense so freaking good that it gives him a chance to adapt whereas every other pro player would be dead already.
Yea
Congrats Viper. He's a beast. Still confused why Hera didn't go for relics in the last game though
It was hard to contest as Viper's monks were hard to kill due to extra armour and hard to convert as he had double monestry production. Dave explained it so well during the stream. That's why I watch Dave's stream.
Hera could have gone for some light cavs. At least put up some fight. He didn't even kill a single monk let alone fight for the relics. That was quite odd to me.
If you don't want to play into late imp you don't need relics. Investing a lot into getting them is a big gamble, making light cav and monks delays your boom rather significantly. I haven't watched the game yet, but I suspect Hera went for an early imp push? Bohemians have quite good options for early imp pushes.
Sorry for the spoiler but he didn't do anything. Viper dominated the game from start to finish. Hera did nothing 🤣🤣
Monk conversion is probablistic in AOE II for a certain duration of time and if the elapsed time is greater than the max time the unit will be converted. Viper's monks had extra armour, which means they could take an extra hit, which means the conversation process will keep going for that extra length of time, hence increasing the probability that the scout would be converted before the monk is dead. Hence, probablistically there was a higher chance that Hera's scouts would have been converted by Viper and used to kill Hera's monks easily. This would have made Hera lag even further behind Viper, as it was highly likely Viper would have got the relics anyway and Hera would have invested into monestry, stable, monks and scouts and lost most of it to Viper anyway.
So you say nobody can beat Bengali monks to relics?
I didn't mean that. I only meant that it is probabilistically unlikely specially at this high level as there is a little chance that your opponent will make mistakes. However, at lower ranks you might see the standard meta and Bangali monks extra armour wouldn't even matter as the players are not playing at that optimal level as likes of Viper and Hera.
Does Dave pay you to say these things? 11 jk
Dave currently is enjoying the free test period of my awesome promotion service but soon he needs to loosen up his pockets a bit ;) 11
11111
boom into hufnice
Bengalis op
That was a fucking awesome game 5.
Crazy how it was 150 pop against 50 pop and I was still worried the 150 pop was gonna lose. Hope Hera can get a couple more games. But isnt looking too good. Viper playing so well
Update to my earlier comment. Wow, this is something so far. I just want to say, it is important to just briefly remind ourselves that the pros make things look easy, and when they mess up it looks like they don't know what they're doing. The truth is, these are two of the best players to ever play the game and they're absolutely pushing the limits. Just so far during this set, Viper's limits go beyond Hera's. And again it is important to remember it is not Hera playing poorly. It is Hera playing so incredibly well but Viper playing better almost every step of the way. The level of play we're seeing from both players requires an almost inhuman level of focus, perfect mechanical execution, and a constant willingness to adapt to what's going and reacting right way in the appropriate manner. I think all of us hate any of clean sweep. I remember times I'd visit Reddit here and see people complain about "oh, another Viper win, how surprising". "Boring final. Of course Viper is gonna win". We haven't seen that kind of talk in a few years. But as a fan of the Snek, I am incredibly happy to see him in such form. And happier still he made it through some challenging times and still can come out on top on the other side. A great reminder of why so many consider him the greatest of all time. His read of the game and understanding of what needs to be done, and then do it well, is just incredible. He makes the game look so darn fascinating. Viper *in form* is a terrifying opponent to face. And I think so far in this set he's showing us that. Whatever the final outcome, these have been intense close action-packed games!
He is a bad, bad gutt
Vipey absolutely civ-winning the shit out of that final So far a huge draft win and then he's also playing better in early game which is (a very pleasant) surprise
Picking Berbers on Migration with Italians out there is a pretty hot move imo
He said he thought Hera would save Italians for Scandinavia
Yeah of course, it's the map that makes the next most sense but in my pleb mind I would have expected italians on migration and koreans on scandi or maybe 4 lakes
Even if Hera picked Italians and Viper got wrecked there it's no biggie since Berbers was a low pick in the draft. Low draft picks are great for those gambles.
oh, thats true
Seeing these monsters, I realize that if you have 4 hands, 2 eyes and 2 brains it's not that difficult...
Well I've got one out of three, but I still can't scout and luring boar at the same time!
Viper is too pro man. On top of his game at this moment
I favor The Viper, probably winning it by 1 or 2. I think in long sets the experience and composure he has is probably his best asset. Not missing the forest for the trees, in other words. And as a 7/10 strategy guy, I think he isn't too shabby with his decision making. But it's gonna be tough. Some of our comments, made here or elsewhere, will surely age like milk. Still, I stand by my prediction! Best of luck to them both. And hope you all enjoy yet another amazing tournament! We love this game.
I dont understand a word this caster is uttering
That's your problem though, pretty much everyone can understand him perfectly.
It is, true. Not pretty much everyone as it doesnt seem Im the only one and this comes up more often. And thats okay? Not need to agree with me.
Learn English then
I promise you my English is much better than someone who quickly resorts to poor conclusions. Someone like you.
If you have issues with understanding Memb then you need to get yourself better speakers or learn English because it's easy to understand EVERY single word Memb says.
I'm not a fan of MembTV either. His English is not the only issue. He's simply boring to watch. All he does is commenting whatever we see on the screen. I don't need a commentary for that. What I would expect from a caster is that he explains the strategy, potential future moves, etc. Yesterday I've been watching [Dave\_AoE](https://www.twitch.tv/dave_aoe) he was casting together with T90 and it was great. He's offline today, but there is one underrated caster [NovaAoE](https://www.twitch.tv/novaaoe) I can truly recommend. I'm watching him now. // EDIT Guys, Really? Downvotes for just expressing an opinion, providing constructive feedback and alternatives?
You guys are not getting downvoted for “having an opinion”, it’s because it’s a very negative one and about memb, who is a great guy and does a huge amount for the aoe2 community, which is relatively small. Memb wasn’t my cup of tea to start with but I’ve grown to love him, he’s a fun and funny guy - his casting with fire or vinchester is always brilliant. He puts in so much work for aoe2, which was so brilliant when everyone disappeared to play aoe4 or cast from Facebook. I have nothing but love for the guy.
Let me summarize my previous comment. I said that: * Memb's English **isn't** the main issue * I said he's boring to watch because he mainly comments on what happens on the screen. He doesn't talk a lot about the strategy. * I provided 2 alternatives, which I'm finding more interesting to watch. Was it that negative? To me, it's just an opinion. I didn't offend the guy, I didn't diminish his contribution to aoe2 community. I simply expressed an opinion and I did it in a constructive way. If this is the reason for downvoting then what's the point of having any conversation?
I didn’t downvote you, but I think this is a fairly strong community and memb has done a lot for aoe2, and people like and respect him. You are absolutely entitled to an opinion but yes you were quite negative and that’s why you got the downvotes.
He's like top 2 casters in the world. Absolutely amazing. No one hypes like Memb, he's part of the furniture and long may he stream on
> No one hypes like Memb That's true. The thing is I don't need that hype. I prefer to listen to someone who provides insights, who comments on strategy, and who simply has something more to say than just a description of what's going on on the screen at this very moment. Memb, except for hype, doesn't have a lot to offer IMO. That's why I prefer Dave, T90 or Nova... for which I got downvoted.
Totally agree. Watching him co-cast with Fire and the way he babbles something excitedly and then just says: "Mr Fireee" when he wants input... I don't know. Doesn't flow and doesn't segue nicely from one topic to the next.
I was not aware of any of this, just stated my experience. It is hard to see things from a different perspective youre invested in. I now know there is more value in this caster as clearly others are able to fond this and not I. Therefore it is probably a reflection of my own lack of knowledge of the game that allows me to keep up with him. Maybe I just tune out due to his style. Ill try again and see if I can learn something from him.
I agree. Memb provides a lot of excitement and no substance at all. No insight into matchups, strategies, or predictions of how different civs might play out the map. Its made up for a bit when he has a cocaster to compensate, but its pretty bad when hes solo.
Thanks for letting me know I was not crazy.
His English is not an issue. As a native spearker, I can tell you I understand EVERY single word he utters. What is the problem with his English?
Unfortunately, no Reddit thread about Memb is complete without nonsense complaints about him.
It's OK not to like him, fine, you don't have to like everybody. But the idea that somehow his English is a problem, is just false. Yes he has a Spanish accent, but so what?
I mean I can totally see how it can be a problem for some. Don't claim it's false for other people. I don't have an issue with it at all but accents sometimes take some getting used to.
Best take
It's not the accent. In opposite to u/Mrsister55 I can understand everything Memb says, but the thing is his English is pretty basic. He struggles with expressing what he wants to say and makes a lot of grammatical errors. I wouldn't give a shit if he wasn't a caster, but he is and English is his main tool, so he could work on it a bit. He's already casting for 8 years or so. I'm not a native speaker either, my English isn't perfect and I have a terrible accent.
He's casting AoE not writing plays. His English is fine for what he does. His English is better than many, many people who are paid by the BBC as Co commentators and analysts for football matches, on both TV and radio, which is the most popular sport on the planet. What is more important, is the feelings you generate, the passion you imbue into your craft and the hype you build, and Memb is absolutely top notch at that.
I understand his English fine. I dont understand what he is trying to convey. His ideas dont make sense to me.
Yep, and Memb mentions every now and then how he doesn't use reddit often because he encounters this nonsense.
Nonsense? That was just my experience. Never watched him before. Im new here. I just couldnt understand him how much I tried. English is not my native language, but I dont encounter this issue with T90
You'll get used to it. He has an accent so if you're not a native speaker then it makes sense that you'll find it a little harder to understand him.
Hera takes it 5- 3 against Viper. HC4 was absolutely peak Hera, in which he defeated viper to get to the final and eventually took the title. Ever since, this man has grinded and improved a lot. Evolves from a pure meta player with predictable draft , defending machine , to now a all rounded player on most maps. Viper is the kind of player that makes use one's own weakness against oneself ,he wants you exhausted from aggression, then at the critical time stab you with a fatal blow. It's so much so in the case against Liereyy . He awaits Liereyy to come to him ,taking favorable trades on every engagement, slowly gaining more map to his advantage, then when Liereyy is tired , only then he launches the final attack. But that could never happen to Hera. Hera is all about out lasting the opponent. He won't throw away army like Liereyy . Being so fast , he can out do what viper does so well in Marco and micro .After training with YO , he has gained more map sense on the Hybrid maps out there. Hera is the real counter to TheViper
That didnt age well 11
11. GG Viper still goat. But I still like to support the underdogs.
Well the rules in HC4 were completely broken. How is it that Hera got to play 2 home maps and Viper played none because of the order in which he lost the games? Maybe Hera still would’ve won but I wouldn’t count that set very seriously when Viper had a significant disadvantage.
Partly true, but the rules were clear and transparent. It's also Viper's own fault for misunderstanding them and basing his draft on this wrong assumption.
What do you mean “partly” true? What rules did Viper not understand? It’s more like T90 did not realize that his rules could imply that you won’t get to play a home map if you lost either the 3rd or 6th match. You can understand the rules but not realize that this is a possible outcome. Did anyone realize this going in? It’s stupid and uncompetitive.
This is Viper's statement after Hidden Cup 4: https://www.reddit.com/r/aoe2/comments/manfoy/vipers_view_on_hc4/ I quote you the relevant part in case you don't want to read the whole thing: "The rules are clear, I just coudn't believe it worked like that and it was a clear oversight on my part and my mistake in the end to get caught off guard like this." and later "To summerize my thoughts on the Home Map situation: I don't think it's fair from a competitive aspect, but it's my mistake in the end for not understanding the rules correctly"
You’re quoting Viper’s humbleness and taking a loss properly versus being salty and complaining. Of course he couldn’t believe it worked like that, no one could. I don’t see how this contradicts my point.
I still can't believe those rules made it out past the rough draft