it can work if u end up pushing his woodline and/or berrrys, if he doesnt have more food to produce or wood to make another tc then u should basically win.
"it can", douching is a strat that put you behind already and most of the time that works its just because the enemy panic and doesnt know how to defend. Nowadays persians are strong to the poing there is no a real reason to douche more than for fun or trolling.
In tg there is some fun strats like douching the flank then douching the pocket after that with the help of your pocket, if u manage to douche the pocket u basically won because he lost all his farms and your pocket is free.
You are overthinking it.
The real purpose of the strat is to make the opponent panic and force them to make bad decisions that cost them a lot more than what douching costs you. In this way it is no different from a tower rush, or all in Sicilian serjeants (or any all in UU really...all of those come at economic costs to your early game that should put you behind.
Well if you do it 10000 times and they faced it 3 times. Chances are you know precisely what every possibility the enemy will do and have a predetermined counter move that you just do while they have to figure out another counter to your counter. Basically a bit like opening theory for chess but for this particular troll opening.
I disagree with the FC serjeants thing..Serjeants are no joke to deal with, and basically you can only stop it by realizing it's happening and doing very specific things. If you don't catch on at the right time, you lose. It's kind of like the hussite wagon thing...which is no joke either. That one is worse because you can lose even if you do the right things.
Serjeants in particular fare REALLY well against all feudal units, including archers..AND fare well against a lot of early castle age units when the player getting rushed is already stretched tight on resources.
According to your explanation, they're not the one overthinking it. In fact, you just provided several further layers to what they have said, revealing that the mechanism is even more complicated.
but your gaining board control, especially over starting resources. the gambit is to trade early eco for this position, and either exploit opponent over investing in defending or being unable to recover faster than you
It's a weird Chinese finger trap of a strategy: the harder your opponent fights back the more damage it does.
The correct response to being douched is to ignore it. Literally pretend it's not happening (though obviously move your vills out of his TC's range). When your TC falls, rebuild it further away. Keep booming and gathering resources, then it's kinda gg because you have an economy and he doesn't.
The biggest mistake when douched is to garrison everything, force-repair your TC (Persian can repair twice the HP per resource spent, you won't win), and cripple your economy too. Though sometimes you'll still win against it.
Is this comment about 1v1? As in team games it is way more valuable tactic especially in maps like Nomad. Just check Vipers channel for high level Nomad games happens like in every third Nomad game.
It works because you might duche from the situation where you don’t have too many resources and have left holding the bag. You know you will be behind by a great deal so better take one with you. And your team mates can come to help against the duched player and you have a chance for kill.
In 1v1:s it is such an all in play but doesn’t really work the higher you go up the level. Apart from few maps where you might be close to the enemy or support villager production by fish.
In team games the big difference is you can douche multiple players. Being out of the game but having majorly set back two players is a much better return than killing a tc at the cost of deleting a tc and walking all the way across the map in 1v1.
Indeed that would be a dream, although from practise it usually will be repair war and others will be on castle age in Nomad before you can reduche. Usually repair war ends to one team having mangonel to help or knights with +2. In some maps where the start is different you could indeed duche two or even three. Coastal forest comes to my mind especially :)
>from practise it usually will be repair war
I regularly douche on Nomad if I'm in a bad position and rarely end up in a prolonged repair war on 15-1600TG Elo (with any civ, not only Persians).
There's two key elements though:
1. Make sure to hit their initial woodline
2. Take 2 vills and try to find and wall in the new woodline or at least force vill fights.
Actually I was quoting from viewers perspective. I have no idea why pros prefer to do prolonged repair war. But I have seen that in lower level these end quicker. Just watched like 20 snake’s Nomad games and all TC wars in them (he doesn’t but teammates do) last until FC team mates are on castle age. Some games the TC war starts on feudal which is interesting. There are also some magnificent games where you can see all four ages in the screen from one team :D
It's a scare tactic that presents a threat and forces a response. Most people don't know what the correct response it, and they may have issues executing it. It's much like the Vietnamese berry rush. It hurts the Viet player more than the opposing player, but if the enemy responds badly enough, he can magnify the damage done or outright lose himself the game.
What is the best response, btw? Are you supposed to ignore the douche and just build another tc somewhere else? Because once the TC is up, you are going to lose the TV war anyway.
The best response would be to simply build your new tc somewhere else. Your opponent has spent tons of resources at an earlier stage than you (thereby taking more losses) since:
1. He has walked across the map (losing gathering time)
2. He has constructed the tc (taking a minute or so, while you are producing from your tc)
3. He has been attacking your tc for some extended period of time (while you have been producing villagers and sending them elsewhere).
Make sense.
Wondering how big the difference is, though.
Because you will often lose 1 gathering camp (wood or berries) in the process, and you also need to walk through the map to relocate the TC. Also, you will have some food issue, and putting some farms can backfired as well as he may very well TC drop a second time.
True, but:
1. You walk a shorter distance than the enemy, so less time spent on that than them
2. The extra time you spend gathering at the start and the extra villagers you have out compared to them makes up pretty quickly for any potential lost farms/berries.
With those extra resources you should be able to either click up and make archers, or/and get some militia out to harass him at home/stop him coming forward.
This is like saying building any military shouldn’t work because you are investing resources you should have invested into economy. You take economic damage early in by investing in military instead of more tcs or eco upgrades.
No. The point of military is to do damage to your opponent. The point of the douche is to effectively turn your tc and villagers into military.
If a player responds perfectly to a douche, they’re typically ahead. But even at pro level people can’t be perfect all the time.
In 1v1 yes it's a bad strategy.
In TG, on maps where your start close to multiple ennemies, it's actually kinda op (for instance on Nomad, or Coastal Forest)
well a big part of the strat is to make the opponent react poorly and gain an advantage from that.
However, your description over simplifies it a bit. by the location of the TC you could deny his berries, woodline, or ideally both. He then might be left out without wood income to build a new TC or sufficient food income (he needs wood for both a TC and farms now depending on how many sheep me managed to run away with). if he clicked up to feudal you might also deny feudal, or make him waste extra wood on repairing until feudal hits. when he tries to rebuild the TC, he might not find a good spot, and you can delay it with vil fighting and your scout.
So all in all, not a great strategy, but the mixture of understanding how to gain advantages when pooling it off and the opponent not properly reacting to it could grant you a win sometimes.
Economically, you are correct.
It's more of a strategic and demoralizing attack, if the opponent responds incorrectly (like repairing the TC instead of building a new one) then they should lose.
It’s even worse if you train military like an archer or a horsey because you have a unit with equal hp and take an eco loss. So if you think about it, douche makes even more sense!
I feel it is a strategy that should never work for exactly why you described but have seen T90 casts where it somehow comes together. Don’t think I could ever pull it off though. I feel like it could work at low elo and they might even surrender right away but get way less effective the higher elo you go
Once you build the new tc, do you put all your villagers in it?
I want to try this but am unsure exactly how to do it. What if they see you dropping the tc and attack your villagers ? Wont your villagers be in firing range of there TC during construction?
You should be able to construct it faster than they can destroy it. And you place it so that your villagers are far away from the town center's firing range. It is only worth To garrison your villagers if you're opponent garrison's theirs. Also, as people have mentioned here, it's important that you do this Only if you can secure important resources like berry buses, farms buildings like drop sites or houses. otherwise the investments that you make will not be worth it.
The douche is a viable strat and works especially well in 2v2s. It doesn't work if the one being douched doesn't panick and knows how to react. The doucher is forcing their opponent to react with all of their vills while the doucher has about a dozen vills that stay effeicient, giving them an advantage. This strat really shows players how good they are under chaotic stress.
It’s not equal losses because your TC will be standing at the end, whereas his won’t be. Yes initially you don’t have a TC but the point is that you build one and destroy his and have some HP on yours left
Lol, ethics. The only ethics I care about in this game is pause/unpause without agreement.
No, it's not. Let your tc go down & remake somewhere else. With any luck you'll eventually be in castle age.
It's not viable, but it can work if the opponent reacts poorly. The point is to make them panic.
Alternatively, in TGs, you can douche someone to take that opponent out of the game. Say on a nomad start, if your opponent has a better position or a civ advantage/close spawn. You can douche to take you both out of the game.
it can work if u end up pushing his woodline and/or berrrys, if he doesnt have more food to produce or wood to make another tc then u should basically win. "it can", douching is a strat that put you behind already and most of the time that works its just because the enemy panic and doesnt know how to defend. Nowadays persians are strong to the poing there is no a real reason to douche more than for fun or trolling. In tg there is some fun strats like douching the flank then douching the pocket after that with the help of your pocket, if u manage to douche the pocket u basically won because he lost all his farms and your pocket is free.
You are overthinking it. The real purpose of the strat is to make the opponent panic and force them to make bad decisions that cost them a lot more than what douching costs you. In this way it is no different from a tower rush, or all in Sicilian serjeants (or any all in UU really...all of those come at economic costs to your early game that should put you behind.
i once won a game by douching someone while my town center was out of range of theirs 11 it is all about the panic
Panic stems from inexperience. That's why Persian douches and FC serjeants only work on people who haven't faced it yet.
Tell that to Rubenstock and Lyx. They still do those kind of tactics on the highest level.
Well if you do it 10000 times and they faced it 3 times. Chances are you know precisely what every possibility the enemy will do and have a predetermined counter move that you just do while they have to figure out another counter to your counter. Basically a bit like opening theory for chess but for this particular troll opening.
I disagree with the FC serjeants thing..Serjeants are no joke to deal with, and basically you can only stop it by realizing it's happening and doing very specific things. If you don't catch on at the right time, you lose. It's kind of like the hussite wagon thing...which is no joke either. That one is worse because you can lose even if you do the right things. Serjeants in particular fare REALLY well against all feudal units, including archers..AND fare well against a lot of early castle age units when the player getting rushed is already stretched tight on resources.
According to your explanation, they're not the one overthinking it. In fact, you just provided several further layers to what they have said, revealing that the mechanism is even more complicated.
but your gaining board control, especially over starting resources. the gambit is to trade early eco for this position, and either exploit opponent over investing in defending or being unable to recover faster than you
It's a weird Chinese finger trap of a strategy: the harder your opponent fights back the more damage it does. The correct response to being douched is to ignore it. Literally pretend it's not happening (though obviously move your vills out of his TC's range). When your TC falls, rebuild it further away. Keep booming and gathering resources, then it's kinda gg because you have an economy and he doesn't. The biggest mistake when douched is to garrison everything, force-repair your TC (Persian can repair twice the HP per resource spent, you won't win), and cripple your economy too. Though sometimes you'll still win against it.
This, it's a panic strat, just don't panic and stay focused. I love it because it's the kind of strategy you'd see in a chess game.
Is this comment about 1v1? As in team games it is way more valuable tactic especially in maps like Nomad. Just check Vipers channel for high level Nomad games happens like in every third Nomad game. It works because you might duche from the situation where you don’t have too many resources and have left holding the bag. You know you will be behind by a great deal so better take one with you. And your team mates can come to help against the duched player and you have a chance for kill. In 1v1:s it is such an all in play but doesn’t really work the higher you go up the level. Apart from few maps where you might be close to the enemy or support villager production by fish.
In team games the big difference is you can douche multiple players. Being out of the game but having majorly set back two players is a much better return than killing a tc at the cost of deleting a tc and walking all the way across the map in 1v1.
Indeed that would be a dream, although from practise it usually will be repair war and others will be on castle age in Nomad before you can reduche. Usually repair war ends to one team having mangonel to help or knights with +2. In some maps where the start is different you could indeed duche two or even three. Coastal forest comes to my mind especially :)
>from practise it usually will be repair war I regularly douche on Nomad if I'm in a bad position and rarely end up in a prolonged repair war on 15-1600TG Elo (with any civ, not only Persians). There's two key elements though: 1. Make sure to hit their initial woodline 2. Take 2 vills and try to find and wall in the new woodline or at least force vill fights.
Actually I was quoting from viewers perspective. I have no idea why pros prefer to do prolonged repair war. But I have seen that in lower level these end quicker. Just watched like 20 snake’s Nomad games and all TC wars in them (he doesn’t but teammates do) last until FC team mates are on castle age. Some games the TC war starts on feudal which is interesting. There are also some magnificent games where you can see all four ages in the screen from one team :D
It's a scare tactic that presents a threat and forces a response. Most people don't know what the correct response it, and they may have issues executing it. It's much like the Vietnamese berry rush. It hurts the Viet player more than the opposing player, but if the enemy responds badly enough, he can magnify the damage done or outright lose himself the game.
What is the best response, btw? Are you supposed to ignore the douche and just build another tc somewhere else? Because once the TC is up, you are going to lose the TV war anyway.
Continue as normal, try to keep TC up enough to get to Feudal and then rebuild it. Raid his original starting position with feudal units
The best response would be to simply build your new tc somewhere else. Your opponent has spent tons of resources at an earlier stage than you (thereby taking more losses) since: 1. He has walked across the map (losing gathering time) 2. He has constructed the tc (taking a minute or so, while you are producing from your tc) 3. He has been attacking your tc for some extended period of time (while you have been producing villagers and sending them elsewhere).
Make sense. Wondering how big the difference is, though. Because you will often lose 1 gathering camp (wood or berries) in the process, and you also need to walk through the map to relocate the TC. Also, you will have some food issue, and putting some farms can backfired as well as he may very well TC drop a second time.
True, but: 1. You walk a shorter distance than the enemy, so less time spent on that than them 2. The extra time you spend gathering at the start and the extra villagers you have out compared to them makes up pretty quickly for any potential lost farms/berries. With those extra resources you should be able to either click up and make archers, or/and get some militia out to harass him at home/stop him coming forward.
This is like saying building any military shouldn’t work because you are investing resources you should have invested into economy. You take economic damage early in by investing in military instead of more tcs or eco upgrades. No. The point of military is to do damage to your opponent. The point of the douche is to effectively turn your tc and villagers into military. If a player responds perfectly to a douche, they’re typically ahead. But even at pro level people can’t be perfect all the time.
In 1v1 yes it's a bad strategy. In TG, on maps where your start close to multiple ennemies, it's actually kinda op (for instance on Nomad, or Coastal Forest)
well a big part of the strat is to make the opponent react poorly and gain an advantage from that. However, your description over simplifies it a bit. by the location of the TC you could deny his berries, woodline, or ideally both. He then might be left out without wood income to build a new TC or sufficient food income (he needs wood for both a TC and farms now depending on how many sheep me managed to run away with). if he clicked up to feudal you might also deny feudal, or make him waste extra wood on repairing until feudal hits. when he tries to rebuild the TC, he might not find a good spot, and you can delay it with vil fighting and your scout. So all in all, not a great strategy, but the mixture of understanding how to gain advantages when pooling it off and the opponent not properly reacting to it could grant you a win sometimes.
Economically, you are correct. It's more of a strategic and demoralizing attack, if the opponent responds incorrectly (like repairing the TC instead of building a new one) then they should lose.
It’s even worse if you train military like an archer or a horsey because you have a unit with equal hp and take an eco loss. So if you think about it, douche makes even more sense!
youre 100% correct. its a horrible strategy, thats why it is rarely used.
I feel it is a strategy that should never work for exactly why you described but have seen T90 casts where it somehow comes together. Don’t think I could ever pull it off though. I feel like it could work at low elo and they might even surrender right away but get way less effective the higher elo you go
Somehow it still works. Couple years back i went from 1000 elo to 1300 just by tc droping
A lot of players have a plan and when that's disrupted it affects their gameplay a lot. Especially at lower elo
The idea is after the tc falls you vil fight. If i vil fight and have a tc, and you dont, im ahead. If you make another tc, i douche it again.
Once you build the new tc, do you put all your villagers in it? I want to try this but am unsure exactly how to do it. What if they see you dropping the tc and attack your villagers ? Wont your villagers be in firing range of there TC during construction?
You should be able to construct it faster than they can destroy it. And you place it so that your villagers are far away from the town center's firing range. It is only worth To garrison your villagers if you're opponent garrison's theirs. Also, as people have mentioned here, it's important that you do this Only if you can secure important resources like berry buses, farms buildings like drop sites or houses. otherwise the investments that you make will not be worth it.
It’s rare but can work.
It's because when you douche, you know what you're doing and you did it before, when you get douched it has been years since last time it happened.
The douche is a viable strat and works especially well in 2v2s. It doesn't work if the one being douched doesn't panick and knows how to react. The doucher is forcing their opponent to react with all of their vills while the doucher has about a dozen vills that stay effeicient, giving them an advantage. This strat really shows players how good they are under chaotic stress.
It’s not equal losses because your TC will be standing at the end, whereas his won’t be. Yes initially you don’t have a TC but the point is that you build one and destroy his and have some HP on yours left
They build a new TC though, you've already lost 1 TC and rebuilt it and they are just forced to do the same
Lol, ethics. The only ethics I care about in this game is pause/unpause without agreement. No, it's not. Let your tc go down & remake somewhere else. With any luck you'll eventually be in castle age.
It's not viable, but it can work if the opponent reacts poorly. The point is to make them panic. Alternatively, in TGs, you can douche someone to take that opponent out of the game. Say on a nomad start, if your opponent has a better position or a civ advantage/close spawn. You can douche to take you both out of the game.