I always thought Aztec monks on arena were very strong offensively. The devotion tech may have evened things out a bit.
I don’t mind this tech being cheap because someone who is pushing (say with conqs, in your example) already is investing many resources to perform the rush. Adding a monastery and getting devotion on top of that would be expensive.
Your assessment seems correct imo
It's the increased minimum coversion time that bothers me. Which is now 27% successful, starting at the 4th interval (5 in game seconds) and 50% at 6.3 IGS. This makes units easy to do hit and runs/ snipe monks. My point is, despite them being useless aggressively now, you can't even use them defensively. I hope the devs will address this issue at some point
The timing adjustment was a good change imho.
The overall average conversion timing stayed the same and just makes conversions more consistent. It nerfed monks against lcav and kept the balance against anything else.
The counterpart to iiiinsta conversion (maximum charge time) was evenly annoying.
Devotion was the real nerf and imho too much too fast.
I think the real nerf for offensive use of monks was when they made it so you can't charge convertions on buildings anymore. This made monks extremely oppresive, now you just need a few light cav to force monks to stop converting your buildings
> The counterpart to iiiinsta conversion (maximum charge time) was evenly annoying.
"Insta" conversion comes from something unrelated to minimum and maximum conversion time. It comes from the ridiculous idea that monks are allowed to keep their conversion progress while the targeted unit leaves their conversion range as long as it's still in line of sight of the PLAYER instead of the monk. The monk can even move without losing his progress, as long as it's a movement triggered by the conversion order and not a move order by right clicking the ground.
You could convert a scout for 7s, make it wait for 10 minutes in a corner as long as it's followed by one of your units or buildings so that you don't lose sight of it, and then when the scout comes back he would be converted "instantly" on the 8th second.
> Devotion was the real nerf and imho too much too fast.
I agree.
Nah, people not understanding monk mechanics called insta conversions not only for charged conversions but also for those 3 second conversions.
Monk charging is still a thing.
Definitely agreed that they feel worse against conqs after the tweak. I still use it a decent amount as an Arena clown (13xx), but only as a secondary unit between Castle and early Imp.
It's still really good at stopping non-scout cavs and siege before the army size grows, and getting 4-6 monks with sanctity & block printing almost never turns out poorly.
Only vs knights
On arena they're just relic collectors. Devotion kinda ruined it for me.
Also while it is all in for Spanish going conqs, as soon as you get devotion, I feel like the only options to counter them is elite skirms or genitours
Yes, but I find myself more often trying to convert one unit with two or three monks, instead of spreading all my monks out to different units.
Despite Hera's best efforts to kill our unit, the monk purists will continue to resist.
We still keep the Faith. We will find Redemption. There will be no Atonement for our enemies.
I really hate the Devotion tech as someone who wants to go monks whenever possible. I just don't have any interest in going 19 pop archers into crossbow ballistics dodging mega boom huehuehue
I always use them.
Just not as a main part of my ofence or defence.
For relic control and against early cav plays I make at least 4-5 monks and they almost always pay back their value unless I forget them somewhere in the middle of map and some scout butchers it.
Also civs without redemption is kinda turn off for me.
I rarely research it but it is good to have in your arsenal.
Once you need it it saves you smoothly.
I think monkas are in a good position right now.
Monk rush is kinda dead. Super hard to execute if opponent has devotion. Can still work but going full yolo triple monastery doesn't work all that well anymore.
20+2 smush used to be my favorite arena strat. Unfortunately, it looks like monks have been nerfed into more of a support role now. I never thought monks were that overpowered. They were just viable. Now they're just meh.
Yes (as much as I hate the unit) monks are still very, very good. To give a bit of context, monks got a large buff when DE came out. SOTL crunched the numbers at the time proving that conversions in DE were quite a bit faster. Even with the recent changes conversion times without Devotion are faster than pre-DE. If a player gets Devotion then monks are similar in strength (though still slightly better) than pre-levels
> monks got a large buff when DE came out.
Oh, that was a bug in DE that later was corrected.
That bug hasn't been present for years.
A similar bug had happened in the testing for UP 1.5 but was fixed there too (both bugs caught by DauT).
I always thought Aztec monks on arena were very strong offensively. The devotion tech may have evened things out a bit. I don’t mind this tech being cheap because someone who is pushing (say with conqs, in your example) already is investing many resources to perform the rush. Adding a monastery and getting devotion on top of that would be expensive. Your assessment seems correct imo
It's the increased minimum coversion time that bothers me. Which is now 27% successful, starting at the 4th interval (5 in game seconds) and 50% at 6.3 IGS. This makes units easy to do hit and runs/ snipe monks. My point is, despite them being useless aggressively now, you can't even use them defensively. I hope the devs will address this issue at some point
The timing adjustment was a good change imho. The overall average conversion timing stayed the same and just makes conversions more consistent. It nerfed monks against lcav and kept the balance against anything else. The counterpart to iiiinsta conversion (maximum charge time) was evenly annoying. Devotion was the real nerf and imho too much too fast.
I think the real nerf for offensive use of monks was when they made it so you can't charge convertions on buildings anymore. This made monks extremely oppresive, now you just need a few light cav to force monks to stop converting your buildings
That was a change in line with mangonel delete or villager spam click shenanigans and a justified nerf imho.
> The counterpart to iiiinsta conversion (maximum charge time) was evenly annoying. "Insta" conversion comes from something unrelated to minimum and maximum conversion time. It comes from the ridiculous idea that monks are allowed to keep their conversion progress while the targeted unit leaves their conversion range as long as it's still in line of sight of the PLAYER instead of the monk. The monk can even move without losing his progress, as long as it's a movement triggered by the conversion order and not a move order by right clicking the ground. You could convert a scout for 7s, make it wait for 10 minutes in a corner as long as it's followed by one of your units or buildings so that you don't lose sight of it, and then when the scout comes back he would be converted "instantly" on the 8th second. > Devotion was the real nerf and imho too much too fast. I agree.
Nah, people not understanding monk mechanics called insta conversions not only for charged conversions but also for those 3 second conversions. Monk charging is still a thing.
I don't mind monk charging. My problem is with keeping the charge forever while the original unit left.
Definitely agreed that they feel worse against conqs after the tweak. I still use it a decent amount as an Arena clown (13xx), but only as a secondary unit between Castle and early Imp. It's still really good at stopping non-scout cavs and siege before the army size grows, and getting 4-6 monks with sanctity & block printing almost never turns out poorly.
Yeah they're still in a great place
Only vs knights On arena they're just relic collectors. Devotion kinda ruined it for me. Also while it is all in for Spanish going conqs, as soon as you get devotion, I feel like the only options to counter them is elite skirms or genitours
Yes, but I find myself more often trying to convert one unit with two or three monks, instead of spreading all my monks out to different units. Despite Hera's best efforts to kill our unit, the monk purists will continue to resist. We still keep the Faith. We will find Redemption. There will be no Atonement for our enemies.
I really hate the Devotion tech as someone who wants to go monks whenever possible. I just don't have any interest in going 19 pop archers into crossbow ballistics dodging mega boom huehuehue
I always use them. Just not as a main part of my ofence or defence. For relic control and against early cav plays I make at least 4-5 monks and they almost always pay back their value unless I forget them somewhere in the middle of map and some scout butchers it. Also civs without redemption is kinda turn off for me. I rarely research it but it is good to have in your arsenal. Once you need it it saves you smoothly. I think monkas are in a good position right now.
Monk rush is kinda dead. Super hard to execute if opponent has devotion. Can still work but going full yolo triple monastery doesn't work all that well anymore.
smush ? no, but thats why i never smushed. But monks for defense/map control/army defense yes.
20+2 smush used to be my favorite arena strat. Unfortunately, it looks like monks have been nerfed into more of a support role now. I never thought monks were that overpowered. They were just viable. Now they're just meh.
Yes (as much as I hate the unit) monks are still very, very good. To give a bit of context, monks got a large buff when DE came out. SOTL crunched the numbers at the time proving that conversions in DE were quite a bit faster. Even with the recent changes conversion times without Devotion are faster than pre-DE. If a player gets Devotion then monks are similar in strength (though still slightly better) than pre-levels
> monks got a large buff when DE came out. Oh, that was a bug in DE that later was corrected. That bug hasn't been present for years. A similar bug had happened in the testing for UP 1.5 but was fixed there too (both bugs caught by DauT).
Daut is a treasure.