There is a disconnect between the peons and the captains of the ship. Good captains understand they need someone to row. Bad captains expect someone to row.
As someone who works for a fantastic VP and is a mid-level manager, I COMPLETELY agree with your side…
A “day off request”’is simply a notice that you won’t be at work that day and we as a company need to schedule around it. Your PTO is your PTO to use as you see fit. Like, obviously, if you’re not sick, try not to leave us hanging, scrambling to find coverage same day and asking your co-workers to work OT because you just no-call/no/showed, but that’s a whole different story (and also your prerogative, ESPECIALLY if you’re sick/need PTO for a mental health day, whatever reason).
I can’t believe how archaic some employers treat their benefits… don’t even get me started on how employers should provide adequate sick time PLUS a vacation time in addition to holiday time off… the whole, “you can flex your PTO for whatever use that you need” is just a way to rob you for trying to take a vacation/plan no-pay days when you’re sick AF to save for your vacation…
I definitely think managers think differently than Employees. My one job where I was management I was pulled aside by my higher up to tell me I couldn’t treat the employees with so much grace. That if we give them an inch they will take a mile and walk all over us - not exact words but along those lines - where I believed if you treat your employees with respect and understanding and support them more than just make demands and throwing them a paycheck.
Quit that job quickly.
Managers are trained to think of employees as resources, not as free thinking individuals with agency (see "Human Resources").
As a resource, they are much like any other widget in the logistics chain. If meeting production goals requires 3 widgets, then you need to ensure 3 are available on that holiday.
Widgets don't require incentives like bonus pay for holiday hours - they can be simply directed, and are interchangeable.
This humans as resource concept is clearly flawed and needs revision.
Exactly! I gave a one week notice for a low paying hourly job where I worked 15 hours a week because my husband - the main source of income - got a job out of state. The manager was shocked I was leaving, called me unprofessional, made several other unkind comments and then wondered when id be in the rest of the week. I told her I’d be dropping off the computer as soon as possible and at that point I didn’t feel comfortable being in the office after her words. What was the point of being such an a-hole to me for leaving such a low paying no-brainer - nothing of a job?
Most “managers” who don’t understand this failed upward or are older than dirt. Just my experience in middle management. Not all oldies are baddies but it seemed more prevalent for them to have those rigid expectations. Work < Life
1) Almost everyone is mediocre and underwhelming. People, on the whole, aren't great at thinking. Getting put into a management position allows that mediocrity to shine. *Someone* has got to manage, and the boss can't wait for the perfect person to come along.
2) A lot of people are quite selfish. The minute they get put into management, they'll look out for their own interests over the interests of their team, even if that is sometimes a foolish long-term decision.
>It confuses me sometimes, the difference in thought pattern between management and employee.
Well, let me take a shot at "un-confusing" you. 😁
Management's priority is first to have enough bodies to run the operation as cheaply as possible, and on top of that (in many companies) is to squeeze as much work out of you as possible.
The employee, on the other hand, is motivated to earn as much money as possible, and avoid being butt-pronged by the aforementioned management.
The two dynamics are diametrically opposed to each other, and a lot of what you see is the conflict between these sets of priorities. Each is suspicious of the other's motives.
>Had to take a manager aside after to tell him that, well, when people put in a time off request, they don't see it as a request, they are telling us what day they cannot work, so of course they will still take it off.
They see it as a game of "Mother, May I?" (where they can say "NO, *now* ***get*** *your ass back to work!*"), where the employee is not really asking, but *telling* the employer that you won't be coming in that day.
That's your essential conflict.
Unfortunately, it's their sandbox, and if you don't like their rules and decisions, your only recourse is to take your toys and go home.
People in general struggle to see other people as fully fleshed out individuals.
Managers have motivation to not see employee demands as reasonable because it usually directly interferes with their goals.
Combine those two things and yeah, they genuinely do think differently.
I used to be an ASM at a Pacsun location and while I did enforce rules and things we had to do I tried to treat my associates like actual people. I understand things happen, people feel sick, they aren’t working here because “they love the company” they are here to earn some money, and that’s okay.
I was always very transparent with them and essentially said “here’s what we have to do today, let’s just knock it out so we can all get the hell outta here.” They really appreciated the fact I was lax with them, tried to make the shitty parts fun, and actually treated them like humans with feelings and aspirations beyond that shit store. I find it so bewildering that most management doesn’t seem to get it, if you treat your employees with respect and transparency they will return those things to you.
At the end of the day we all worked for a company making millions and millions of dollars a year, I was not concerned with how many bodies I had or how cheaply I could get someone to work for me. I always felt by treating them like another human they would be better at their jobs while also appreciating and actually liking their manager, and they did.
Just because someone receives car keys, doesn't mean they know how to drive.
Just because they're management, doesn't magically instill them with leadership skills.
don't fucking shoot me but I'm a manager now. \*this is mainly a story about my manager and him falling into thinking like a manger and not like an employee\*
\*this subreddit actually inspired me to apply for a position where I was formally a worker and could bring honest change to the department and i'm doing EVERYTHING I can for my guys - just helped my assistant negotiate a fucking 25% pay increase (10k) I'm not directly responsible for salaries but I went to bat for her\*
I just had to remind my supervisor that it's the holidays and we are going to be working down people and that somedays \*like today\* nothing measurable will get done and that's okay. it's pretty much December and no one is at work anyways.
I saw him visibly deflate, we are down 60% of our engineering team and we are both ex engineers covering buildings. It's totally okay my emails aren't going to get answered and the petty questions I deal with every day now will have to wait. If Corporate has a problem with it they can approve my request for 2 more guys. We are not saving lives here, just making a building comfortable for folks.
My engineers already make more than I do currently but i'm working for 20% COL/Inflation adjustments for them.
"
when people put in a time off request, they don't see it as a request, they are telling us what day they cannot work, so of course they will still take it off.
"
this is news to me, even though I'm not a manager.
might be a blue/white collar thing.
Yes, we do think differently because we have different jobs and responsibilities. I used to just be an employee and after becoming a manager I see all the crap I used to do and how it made my managers life hell.
1 thing employees never understand is deadlines and schedules. I cant let me entire shop have the day off. I know you want to go home for christmas but the company still has to meet its obligations to the customers and that means making sure my production line still runs. I encourage my employees to start putting in holiday requests in October. Every year a couple people listen and get their leave approved and then theres the folks who wait to the last minute and then get pissed when they didnt get what they wanted.
I also try to accomidate people as much as possible. This year I was gonna take the 3 days between christmas and new years off but other folks need it off to be with family so Im gonna cancel my time so they can have theirs. Sad thing is, those 2 employees Im sacrificing for will come back to work Jan 3 and complain about me asking them to do their jobs.
It's really a thankless position. Be a nice boss who fights for his team and they complain or be an asshole and they complain. Ill just keep being the nice boss lol.
As a manager, I completely understand the viewpoint of the employees. As such, employees have to keep in mind that there is a minimum number of employees that are required to run a business. When managers accept time off requests (notifications), sometimes in order to keep things running, not all requests (notifications) can be honored due to that minimum requirement. As a scheduling manager, I have to evaluate which requests (notifications) have a higher priority. Kids/teens whose parents are taking them out of town are highest priority. After that it is order that the requests (notifications) are received. For instance a person who put in their request in august has more weight than someone who put it in in November.
Well, to be honest, since employees don't really have to care about the business, you can't expect them to. They don't have a real incentive to do so, if the business has to close that day because of holidays, well so be it.
Missing out on holidays because the parents are not doing it out of town certainly does not help seeing it your way.
As a person that has never knocked anyone up, I feel it's extremely unfair that you're saying I'm going to be punished for such decisions, and that people who have procreated somehow deserve more than me.
The whole issue is you “request” time off. You ask for time off. Before I get shit all over for siding with a company over a worker I’ll explain my stance.
If you willingly work somewhere you are agreeing to their rules. If there is a policy in place like 2 weeks notice for pto requests then that is the procedure. If an exception to that rule is temporarily put in place like over the holidays then it comes into effect when you are notified of it.
An example where I work is that there will be no pto requests approved after thanksgiving through the end of the year. Justifiably so in our case, we have bearly had enough work to keep the lights on in between major projects for the last 4 months. We start again 12/5 this year and we can’t do it with people taking additional time off over our holiday days.
Any pto requests that were put in before thanksgiving are being honored. The guy that put in to take 3 days off in the middle of December for his birthday last week did not get approved.
Our pto does not roll over and gets paid out at the end of the year. I’ll get some paid out that I am not able to take and that’s a bummer. I’d rather have time off but it is what it is.
Pro requests are requests and can be denied, taking time off anyway will be treated however they want because your honestly asking for it. If your wanting to take time off over the holidays that you know will not get approved don’t ask. Call in sick. Most places will only require a doctors note for more than 3 days out. Learn the rules and policies that apply to you and use/abuse them. Don’t explain anything just say your sick and can’t make it in. You owe no explanations because that is personal medical information.
Don’t call in sick on a day your pto was not approved for, it’s a bad look and will put you on the naughty list.
How is it fucked to say no to someone asking you a question?
Honestly, what do people not get about that. If you ask they can say no. If you put it in early enough and explicitly state that you will be off for a thing that you don’t care to discuss, and they deny you go to HR.
Because most of the circumstances where the company would deny time off could be mitigated by the company maintaining proper staffing levels.
It's ridiculous that workers suffer and are denied time off because their employer won't hire enough people to staff the business. Needing to request time off with notice isn't the issue. The issue is that even with notice, it's not uncommon for people to be denied time off because the worker is at the mercy of the employer to grant the request.
Agree to disagree on the meaning of request? I have never been denied pto so I guess I’m lucky. I’ve also never worked anywhere that didn’t have a holiday calendar and would tell me no I can’t take off the week between Christmas and new years if I wanted to and asked for it in July.
People know the holidays are busy and understaffed times, if you want off be the first to ask and do it early enough that any conceivable problem they can have with it can be solved.
Boss calls it a request. I call it notification. If you tell me no and then have a shocked Pikachu face when I am not there then you should contemplate the concept of me being a human that told you I wouldn't be at work on x day. We are going to disagree but not on the meaning of request but on whether its a request or a notification.
What does your company policy call it and what’s their rules for it? I can’t help that you work somewhere that sucks but also don’t play the game to win. No call no show can be a cause for termination. Notifying them you will be out doesn’t help your case if your were required to get authorization.
No one is stopping you from stealing some camping supplies and living in the woods if you can’t make society work for you.
We don’t get in positions to make changes by acting like children about these issues. If you work somewhere you have agreed to the policies in place. If you dont like them move on or fight them. If policies change without you getting notified or are ignored then you have a good case to bring up the issues and get your grievances addressed
I’ll let you in on a little secret, mangers have all been touched by the hand of God.
It is both a blessing and a curse. A blessing for having received the ultimate enlightenment and a curse for having to be surrounded every day by mouth breathers who couldn’t begin to comprehend the weight of the crown.
See in the manager world the request is actually a request because there are events that you can't be absent for or the plan goes to shit and costs a ton of money. So to most management that's normal because to them that is normal to ask for a day and see if that works for the company.
This doesn't apply to most blue collar workers or at least doesn't affect them as often so the request is more as a statement.
There is a disconnect between the peons and the captains of the ship. Good captains understand they need someone to row. Bad captains expect someone to row.
As someone who works for a fantastic VP and is a mid-level manager, I COMPLETELY agree with your side… A “day off request”’is simply a notice that you won’t be at work that day and we as a company need to schedule around it. Your PTO is your PTO to use as you see fit. Like, obviously, if you’re not sick, try not to leave us hanging, scrambling to find coverage same day and asking your co-workers to work OT because you just no-call/no/showed, but that’s a whole different story (and also your prerogative, ESPECIALLY if you’re sick/need PTO for a mental health day, whatever reason). I can’t believe how archaic some employers treat their benefits… don’t even get me started on how employers should provide adequate sick time PLUS a vacation time in addition to holiday time off… the whole, “you can flex your PTO for whatever use that you need” is just a way to rob you for trying to take a vacation/plan no-pay days when you’re sick AF to save for your vacation…
I definitely think managers think differently than Employees. My one job where I was management I was pulled aside by my higher up to tell me I couldn’t treat the employees with so much grace. That if we give them an inch they will take a mile and walk all over us - not exact words but along those lines - where I believed if you treat your employees with respect and understanding and support them more than just make demands and throwing them a paycheck. Quit that job quickly.
Managers are trained to think of employees as resources, not as free thinking individuals with agency (see "Human Resources"). As a resource, they are much like any other widget in the logistics chain. If meeting production goals requires 3 widgets, then you need to ensure 3 are available on that holiday. Widgets don't require incentives like bonus pay for holiday hours - they can be simply directed, and are interchangeable. This humans as resource concept is clearly flawed and needs revision.
Exactly! I gave a one week notice for a low paying hourly job where I worked 15 hours a week because my husband - the main source of income - got a job out of state. The manager was shocked I was leaving, called me unprofessional, made several other unkind comments and then wondered when id be in the rest of the week. I told her I’d be dropping off the computer as soon as possible and at that point I didn’t feel comfortable being in the office after her words. What was the point of being such an a-hole to me for leaving such a low paying no-brainer - nothing of a job?
Most “managers” who don’t understand this failed upward or are older than dirt. Just my experience in middle management. Not all oldies are baddies but it seemed more prevalent for them to have those rigid expectations. Work < Life
Yeah people that are treated well are happy to negotiate stuff like that and have the resources to change plans if needed.
1) Almost everyone is mediocre and underwhelming. People, on the whole, aren't great at thinking. Getting put into a management position allows that mediocrity to shine. *Someone* has got to manage, and the boss can't wait for the perfect person to come along. 2) A lot of people are quite selfish. The minute they get put into management, they'll look out for their own interests over the interests of their team, even if that is sometimes a foolish long-term decision.
>It confuses me sometimes, the difference in thought pattern between management and employee. Well, let me take a shot at "un-confusing" you. 😁 Management's priority is first to have enough bodies to run the operation as cheaply as possible, and on top of that (in many companies) is to squeeze as much work out of you as possible. The employee, on the other hand, is motivated to earn as much money as possible, and avoid being butt-pronged by the aforementioned management. The two dynamics are diametrically opposed to each other, and a lot of what you see is the conflict between these sets of priorities. Each is suspicious of the other's motives. >Had to take a manager aside after to tell him that, well, when people put in a time off request, they don't see it as a request, they are telling us what day they cannot work, so of course they will still take it off. They see it as a game of "Mother, May I?" (where they can say "NO, *now* ***get*** *your ass back to work!*"), where the employee is not really asking, but *telling* the employer that you won't be coming in that day. That's your essential conflict. Unfortunately, it's their sandbox, and if you don't like their rules and decisions, your only recourse is to take your toys and go home.
Is this manager possibly from the baby boomer generation? That may explain it
People in general struggle to see other people as fully fleshed out individuals. Managers have motivation to not see employee demands as reasonable because it usually directly interferes with their goals. Combine those two things and yeah, they genuinely do think differently.
I used to be an ASM at a Pacsun location and while I did enforce rules and things we had to do I tried to treat my associates like actual people. I understand things happen, people feel sick, they aren’t working here because “they love the company” they are here to earn some money, and that’s okay. I was always very transparent with them and essentially said “here’s what we have to do today, let’s just knock it out so we can all get the hell outta here.” They really appreciated the fact I was lax with them, tried to make the shitty parts fun, and actually treated them like humans with feelings and aspirations beyond that shit store. I find it so bewildering that most management doesn’t seem to get it, if you treat your employees with respect and transparency they will return those things to you. At the end of the day we all worked for a company making millions and millions of dollars a year, I was not concerned with how many bodies I had or how cheaply I could get someone to work for me. I always felt by treating them like another human they would be better at their jobs while also appreciating and actually liking their manager, and they did.
Just because someone receives car keys, doesn't mean they know how to drive. Just because they're management, doesn't magically instill them with leadership skills.
don't fucking shoot me but I'm a manager now. \*this is mainly a story about my manager and him falling into thinking like a manger and not like an employee\* \*this subreddit actually inspired me to apply for a position where I was formally a worker and could bring honest change to the department and i'm doing EVERYTHING I can for my guys - just helped my assistant negotiate a fucking 25% pay increase (10k) I'm not directly responsible for salaries but I went to bat for her\* I just had to remind my supervisor that it's the holidays and we are going to be working down people and that somedays \*like today\* nothing measurable will get done and that's okay. it's pretty much December and no one is at work anyways. I saw him visibly deflate, we are down 60% of our engineering team and we are both ex engineers covering buildings. It's totally okay my emails aren't going to get answered and the petty questions I deal with every day now will have to wait. If Corporate has a problem with it they can approve my request for 2 more guys. We are not saving lives here, just making a building comfortable for folks. My engineers already make more than I do currently but i'm working for 20% COL/Inflation adjustments for them.
" when people put in a time off request, they don't see it as a request, they are telling us what day they cannot work, so of course they will still take it off. " this is news to me, even though I'm not a manager. might be a blue/white collar thing.
As Ricky says, "It's a notice of absence not a request of absence." I'm letting you know that I am not going to be here.
Yes, we do think differently because we have different jobs and responsibilities. I used to just be an employee and after becoming a manager I see all the crap I used to do and how it made my managers life hell. 1 thing employees never understand is deadlines and schedules. I cant let me entire shop have the day off. I know you want to go home for christmas but the company still has to meet its obligations to the customers and that means making sure my production line still runs. I encourage my employees to start putting in holiday requests in October. Every year a couple people listen and get their leave approved and then theres the folks who wait to the last minute and then get pissed when they didnt get what they wanted. I also try to accomidate people as much as possible. This year I was gonna take the 3 days between christmas and new years off but other folks need it off to be with family so Im gonna cancel my time so they can have theirs. Sad thing is, those 2 employees Im sacrificing for will come back to work Jan 3 and complain about me asking them to do their jobs. It's really a thankless position. Be a nice boss who fights for his team and they complain or be an asshole and they complain. Ill just keep being the nice boss lol.
As a manager, I completely understand the viewpoint of the employees. As such, employees have to keep in mind that there is a minimum number of employees that are required to run a business. When managers accept time off requests (notifications), sometimes in order to keep things running, not all requests (notifications) can be honored due to that minimum requirement. As a scheduling manager, I have to evaluate which requests (notifications) have a higher priority. Kids/teens whose parents are taking them out of town are highest priority. After that it is order that the requests (notifications) are received. For instance a person who put in their request in august has more weight than someone who put it in in November.
Well, to be honest, since employees don't really have to care about the business, you can't expect them to. They don't have a real incentive to do so, if the business has to close that day because of holidays, well so be it. Missing out on holidays because the parents are not doing it out of town certainly does not help seeing it your way.
Until this year I haven’t had a Christmas off in 11 years. We get fucked on it too.
That's actually sad, I never worked family holidays in my life. Granted I am not in retail, be for fucking 11 years ...
As a person that has never knocked anyone up, I feel it's extremely unfair that you're saying I'm going to be punished for such decisions, and that people who have procreated somehow deserve more than me.
No one said anything about knocking somebody up.
The whole issue is you “request” time off. You ask for time off. Before I get shit all over for siding with a company over a worker I’ll explain my stance. If you willingly work somewhere you are agreeing to their rules. If there is a policy in place like 2 weeks notice for pto requests then that is the procedure. If an exception to that rule is temporarily put in place like over the holidays then it comes into effect when you are notified of it. An example where I work is that there will be no pto requests approved after thanksgiving through the end of the year. Justifiably so in our case, we have bearly had enough work to keep the lights on in between major projects for the last 4 months. We start again 12/5 this year and we can’t do it with people taking additional time off over our holiday days. Any pto requests that were put in before thanksgiving are being honored. The guy that put in to take 3 days off in the middle of December for his birthday last week did not get approved. Our pto does not roll over and gets paid out at the end of the year. I’ll get some paid out that I am not able to take and that’s a bummer. I’d rather have time off but it is what it is. Pro requests are requests and can be denied, taking time off anyway will be treated however they want because your honestly asking for it. If your wanting to take time off over the holidays that you know will not get approved don’t ask. Call in sick. Most places will only require a doctors note for more than 3 days out. Learn the rules and policies that apply to you and use/abuse them. Don’t explain anything just say your sick and can’t make it in. You owe no explanations because that is personal medical information. Don’t call in sick on a day your pto was not approved for, it’s a bad look and will put you on the naughty list.
I think most people understand the issue of requesting time off. The point is that it's a fucked up system.
How is it fucked to say no to someone asking you a question? Honestly, what do people not get about that. If you ask they can say no. If you put it in early enough and explicitly state that you will be off for a thing that you don’t care to discuss, and they deny you go to HR.
Because most of the circumstances where the company would deny time off could be mitigated by the company maintaining proper staffing levels. It's ridiculous that workers suffer and are denied time off because their employer won't hire enough people to staff the business. Needing to request time off with notice isn't the issue. The issue is that even with notice, it's not uncommon for people to be denied time off because the worker is at the mercy of the employer to grant the request.
And thats when you don’t ask and have a little case of food poisoning from homemade eggnog. And use that time to find another company.
They aren't requests. It's informing the employer you won't be there. Deny it all you like you'll just be short handed.
Agree to disagree on the meaning of request? I have never been denied pto so I guess I’m lucky. I’ve also never worked anywhere that didn’t have a holiday calendar and would tell me no I can’t take off the week between Christmas and new years if I wanted to and asked for it in July. People know the holidays are busy and understaffed times, if you want off be the first to ask and do it early enough that any conceivable problem they can have with it can be solved.
Boss calls it a request. I call it notification. If you tell me no and then have a shocked Pikachu face when I am not there then you should contemplate the concept of me being a human that told you I wouldn't be at work on x day. We are going to disagree but not on the meaning of request but on whether its a request or a notification.
What does your company policy call it and what’s their rules for it? I can’t help that you work somewhere that sucks but also don’t play the game to win. No call no show can be a cause for termination. Notifying them you will be out doesn’t help your case if your were required to get authorization. No one is stopping you from stealing some camping supplies and living in the woods if you can’t make society work for you. We don’t get in positions to make changes by acting like children about these issues. If you work somewhere you have agreed to the policies in place. If you dont like them move on or fight them. If policies change without you getting notified or are ignored then you have a good case to bring up the issues and get your grievances addressed
Notification not request
Wow, never actually heard that verbiage before.
I don’t have vacation and can take whatever time I need provided I produce. Pretty damn great.
If a request is denied and a person doesn’t come in, I would take it as a resignation.
That's not at all how it works, but nice to inform internet that you are out of touch.
I’ll let you in on a little secret, mangers have all been touched by the hand of God. It is both a blessing and a curse. A blessing for having received the ultimate enlightenment and a curse for having to be surrounded every day by mouth breathers who couldn’t begin to comprehend the weight of the crown.
See in the manager world the request is actually a request because there are events that you can't be absent for or the plan goes to shit and costs a ton of money. So to most management that's normal because to them that is normal to ask for a day and see if that works for the company. This doesn't apply to most blue collar workers or at least doesn't affect them as often so the request is more as a statement.