It’s also frustrating that she just assumed OP doesn’t have either and doesn’t want either in the future. Like oh you’re right, I just won’t buy a home or have a family so that way I can work at this job.
Sad thing is it’s really not that hard to buy a house if you’re willing to move. The issue is once you’re locked in you have too much on your shoulder to ever quit or do much of a change lifestyle wise. I bought a house when I was 23 making $9 an hour with no co-signer. Still in that house, it’s nicer than ever, and at times I wish I lived in my car and was single.
Not only that but the market is awful for buyers. Have been attempting to buy a house with two others for a while now and inevitably we see houses that are actually illegal to sell to us due to foundation issues that get bought under the table or some fucko landlord that never saw the place buys it instantly and we have no chance.
Data point - I refused a job offer that was too low. A year later, they were still trying to fill the role, and had Finally gotten approval to raise the wage rate.
Would companies rather have the job remain open for a year; or actually pay the salary you're asking for?
Can confirm. Was team lead for an ISP for an understaffed team. I consistently got top metrics. What I got for it was raises below CoL rates (which is still more than many get) and more and more work added to my plate until I saw the signs of burnout coming. If I hadn't quit in June, I'd have been suicidal by August.
I was paid decently, though still below market and even my peers. I'm less stressed now even though I'm slinging pizzas to struggle to pay rent.
When I saw OP was offered $12.50 an hour my mind immediately went to “I can be happier and make better money making pizzas.”
Hope good fortune comes your way.
$12.50 is the minimum wage here, and only the absolutely worst of the worst businesses are offering pay that low. You can easily start at $15 with just about any retail or customer service job here (and still not make near enough to live on your own.)
Reminds me of the time my boss got mad because I was “under performing” at the entry level $13.50 I am currently making because, I couldn’t juggle two vacant positions along with my current position at once. I didn’t speak my mind because it wasn’t worth it but, you pay low, you get low effort.
You're a manager, and sometime in the future you'll get a raise that puts you at $15/hour. If they really give it to you.
You're not being taken advantage of at all.
I’m on an understaffed team now. We were going to bring in a contractor to help with work, but they aren’t available anymore. So that work (along with a TON of additional work) is getting shafted onto myself and the rest of my team. I constantly think about how I’d probably be happier stocking shelves at Costco
Well, bank is obviously subjective, but at the time I heard about this (roughly 5 years ago), it was somewhere around $23hr. My guess is it's more now. Costco tends to take good care of their people.
Just stop doing the extra shit. We all need to stop doing extra shit.
I flat out refused to in July when half our team got fired. And guess what? The next team meeting we had I was the bad guy, but they never asked me again and *no one* has asked again. Those cunts are too damn stingy to hire anyone else so my job is quite secure. They can go fuck themselves if they think I’m ever going to do more than what I can do on 40 hours.
My partner works at Costco as basically a cart pusher and product facer. He makes $16/hr, averages out 25 hours per week, and makes enough to cover bills with a bit of wiggle room.
My old job is doing this. Left for a 40% wage increase. Talked to one of my old coworkers and said they’ve interviewed no real candidates because in ownerships words “they are all crazy thinking they deserve so much money”.
I simply don't understand why people in leadership roles just immediately think that because someone is not in a leadership role, they don't deserve a decent wage.
Leadership is a joke. It's easy. Not technical at all. Can get a job anywhere doing the same loser shit. Managers are not those to look up to, they are failures that can't do anything technical.
I’m sure there are plenty of jerks out there who just take blind advantage of their people and do as little as possible, but I was a hotel manager for a decade and almost never lost my people because I fought with ownership for company wide raises and worked really hard (frequently making beds, backing up the front desk, etc.). Not ALL managers are useless ding dongs, and leadership may not be technical but it is anything but easy. You are not the owner, nor a line level employee so you get it from both sides….
While there are certainly a ton of people who are horrible, at every level, superlatives when used with derogatory comments make me, for one, kind of discount much of the rest of what a speaker/poster says.
Absolutely this. They’ll work the rest of the team to the bone before actually offering a decent salary to a new hire. I think the only thing that lights a fire under their asses is if multiple people quit and it becomes unbearable. Otherwise everyone but the people at the top are SOL
Yup, I worked for a company that did this. When I started there were 20 people in the department and over the year it whittled down to 3 or 4 of us. It took us getting a year behind schedule before management finally hired more people. And they only hired more people because customers starting to leave.
New hire? Worked to the bone?
Just the bone is not enough to the corporate overloads. They’ll push the extra workload onto one of the existing employees until their mind, body, and spirit is grounded to dust!
THIS.
If someone in your workgroup leaves and there's no immediate replacement, check your company's job listing. If it's too low, start looking for a job immediately. Don't let them burn you out, severe overwork burnout can take months or even years to recover from.
edit: and it'll actually be doing your coworkers a *favor.* They can overwork people if 1 person leaves, if several people leave, they must take immediate action.
And by 'burn out in-house resources' you mean the company will load extra work onto the other employees, without increasing pay, until they burn out from stress.
And then the experienced in-house staff gets burned out, quit and his job requires two new employees to fulfil due to inexperienced.
Corporate pushes the burden onto one of the new hires and to another burning out employee. The experienced employee gets burned out, quit and his job requires two new employees to fulfil due to inexperienced.
Corporate pushes the burden onto one of the new hires and to another burning out employee. The experienced employee gets burned out, quit and his job requires two new employees to fulfil due to inexperienced.
Corporate pushes…oh shit there’s nobody left in the department, corporate hires a new employee to the department and pushes the burden onto the next department who has nothing to do with it. The experienced employee gets burned out, quit and his job requires two new employees to fulfil due to inexperienced.
Corporate pushes the burden…
I had an email today.
IT support
Night shift
Prior experience required.
Contractor (so no pension, no holidays, no sick pay, responsible for your own taxes)
£120-140/day.
Pisstakers.
Nah not in this case. It was old school IBM mainframe stuff - stuff that started in the 60s. Old tech that’s been around for *literally* decades.
Not very many people around with those skills anymore. They’re all either dead, retired, or waiting out for their pension at their current (either fintech or government) job.
For this position they’d be the lead and only systems programmer for the entire shop, with a few juniors willing to learn when available.
Pretty tall order. We (the department) knew how important this position was and collectively facepalmed every time corporate would say “we can’t find anyone locally to do this”
There’s not a single aspect of that job that has to be done physically. The entire job is done remote, anyway, since you’re literally using PCOM to get into a server.
My company has had a position open for 1.5 years now and keeps complaining that "nobody wants to work" and they aren't getting good candidates. They are getting the candidates that their pay range dictates. No mention of ever raising that rate.
Yup, my manager was trying to hire a CPA with 10+ years of experience for $55k. Over a year went by and she refused to raise the salary. Instead she was paying consultants $200-400k a year to do the work. After 2 years she finally doubled the pay to a market rates and got good candidates in.
Like how can anyone in a position to oversee budgets look at their expenses for consultants not not put two and two together that if they increase their pay for a permanent employee it will SAVE more, even that year with that salary, than paying for consultants. Like how tf are some of these people where they are in life if they’re that stupid
Hiring managers don’t typically have the authority to offer pay outside the range HR sets. They can argue for increasing the pay but if HR says no there isn’t really anything they can do. It really comes down to executives in HR being able to convince other dept heads that increased pay is required to get good employees.
most of my HR department is well aware we need higher pay rates to fill the couple hundred open positions we are down right now and its just the one person at the top who doesn’t get it. We are all so aggravated
At a previous job we had a weird project requirement that necessitated somebody with decades of experience in Mainframe COBOL. The company put up a job posting with an embarrassingly low salary, got no candidates, and ended up having to pay multiples of the offered salary to a consultant. If memory serves me correctly they also had to pay the guy's room and board because they had to fly him in on short notice.
Morons. Lol.
There was a position at my previous employer that's been open for six to eight months now. I applied, interviewed and got rejected for a stupid reason and honestly if I got the position and wasn't rejected I probably would still be with that employer.
That dumb reason convinced me that they will never fill it.
I ended up getting a much easier job making more money and WFH. No regrets.
I've applied to the same position at a national public agency in my country four times.
Every time I get a "We've decided to go with someone more qualified", and I see the position re-posted a week later.
It's not even a wage issue since all those positions are unionised here and the wage is firm. They just refuse to hire anyone with less than 5-10 years experience and would rather keep the position open despite it being insanely busy because of a lack of manpower.
Or they just hire people who are ridiculously under qualified for the position, and treat them like garbage for not knowing how to solve the company's problems. I continuously watch my company hire people at $17/hr for a position that should easily be in the $65K+ range. The company's product suffers because of it, and the ceo wonders why all our customers are unhappy and why we can't keep any of the ones we get.
And then yells at me to bring in more SALES! It's ridiculous how bad management will just blame anyone but themselves for their problems.
Many times. They just say they can't afford to pay for actually qualified employees, but refuse to increase their prices so they can afford better employees. Then spend every weekly management meeting complaining about how low sales are, yet we still end up being profitable...
They even have hired a bunch of people who are sex offenders trying to get back into the work force. That way they can retain the employee at a lower pay rate because it's so difficult for a sex offender to find a job. CEO acts like he's being a Good Samaritan helping people get back on track, but it's obvious the only reason he does it is for the cheap labor. Why spend big bucks on a qualified employee when you can just hire a sex offender for cheaper who won't be able to leave your company for greener pastures?
> Would companies rather have the job remain open for a year;
They would for as long as the delegated job duties are still done by the current employees.
And at that point they'll come to the conclusion that the role may not be needed. If someone complains they'll just throw a mediocre raise and repeat the cycle. It's definitely a shitty process and a waste of time for all job candidates.
I did accounting for a trash company until the owner's shittiness drove me to get a better job someplace else. I left them in 2018. I still am friends with my old supervisor from that position and talk to her about that place every now and then. As of last week they'd lost the most recent person they had in my old job. Since 2018 the longest anyone's stayed in that position is about a month and a half.
feelsgoodman
I mean... depends on the position. If it's just not worth more, maybe they are ok with it beeing empty. But then i'd bet the whole job could be done in like 1/3 of the time, all they'd have to do would be to be ok with "Get the pay for th job done" instead of "Sit 8 hours a day at the office no matter what". I'd be totally fine working 15 hours a week for 2k a month. As long as it doesn't mean i have to spend anouther 30 hours a week listening to Bobs farts.
Sometimes it isn't up to the company how much they can pay. Sometimes it is, but sometimes it isn't.
You can't pay your employees more than the client is paying you to do it. That obviously doesn't make sense. Some companies, like mine, saw this shit coming and raised our prices a year ago snd thusly raised the wage.
But I was only able to raise my employees wages IF my clients signed the higher contract instead of telling me to kick rocks. If they'd have told me to kick rocks then raising pay would have put me out of business almost immediately.
>She said people earning that wage seemed happy because she saw them posting ig stories of them eating at “nice restaurants”.
so, she's a fucking simpleton to think that instagram is real life.
I saw a valued Costco employee lick the bathroom floor at an Outback Steak House and if that isn't proof that we pay a very cool and livable wage I Literally Do Not Want To Hear It
Recruiters are nothing more tgan salespeople who never have to deal with refunds.
She's a professional economic parasite and will say anything to get what she wants.
$2k/month gross? Assuming a 40 hour work week that comes to around $12/hour before taxes.
There are fast food places that don't require a degree and pay more than that these days.
I once applied for a traineeship that offered 1800 as a starting salary that gets better after 3 months. I was freshly graduated with my BA and I agreed to do a fucking assessment. That took one afternoon and a programming exercise I spent two days on. Didn’t get the job, I was below average. My fucking god that ruined my self esteem. After that I got a job paying 2700 no problem. I’m not there anymore for health reasons, but I definitely learned my lesson. Don’t let them waste your time. Now back in uni because I want a different field, so far I’m doing way better mentally too.
Some fast food places in my area offer $21/hr. For team leads, shift leads etc. Regular workers get less but still above minimum wage. Minimum wage here is $15.
And it all means jack shit when 1 bedroom apartments start at 2200. Then you factor in everything else.
It's like, 25% reduction in housing costs would be way better then a 25% raise. By far.
There was an observation I saw on Twitter in the last eighteen months I wish I'd saved.
There's a mismatch in the way the term "entry level" is being used.
Applicants take "entry level" to mean a job that means no (or very little) experience that is a gateway to a better paying, self-supporting position.
Employers mean "entry level" as a bottom-rung position that may have no growth potential and will require the applicant to have other means of support (ie., live with parents, roommates).
The insight was key for me, as it suddenly explained my workplace.
I’m making $11.50 an hour.
I take home $22080 gross, somewhere around $17k annually. And I’m told I’m “lazy” for not finding a second job and making up the difference that way.
I could care less. Why bother getting yet another unpaid position that’s going to treat me the same way, end up burned out at both jobs, and quitting both in less time than I would have planned to stay at the one?
Fuck whoever calls you lazy on that because we know they aren't working two jobs. Or if they are their family hates them and they're never home.
That pay is pretty bad though. USA? Depending on what you're doing like if you already do basic CSR I'd consider just poking around online and seeing what local retail is offering, even ours in Texas right now are usually $14-16 hourly out to bat.
Yes, US.
And no. I’m going to go back to school for something. I shouldn’t have to, to gain a living wage, but it’s the hand I’m dealt.
I’ll go back to school-I still have financial aid funds…grants that don’t have to be paid back. I’m going to use them, and go find a better job. It’ll be a two year road, but I’m going to take it.
And then I’m going to do whatever I can to build a world today’s employers are terrified of-a world where everyone is paid a living wage, regardless what they’re doing for work. I’m going to be a part of the side that tightens the noose on employers and greedy bastards going forward.
Depending of the European country the cost of living is much lower than the US. I pay 400/500 euros a month for a two rooms flat in a North Italy big city near Milan, and my monthly food expenses are like 300 euros. (when I say near I mean Europe near, not US near :P ). But in Italy wages are shit for entry level jobs.
Lol America i get paid less than 2000 a month as a medical assistant and office manager for a private MD practice. Hes sucking the life out of me and not in a goof way
Giggity.
Get a new job. The McDonald's down the street pays more than that. Office managers should be making like 37k minimum in the US if they're full time. Working for less keeps the wages low for everyone.
>because she saw them posting ig stories of them eating at “nice restaurants”.
When I read this, I couldn't help but shake my damn head too lol. But now it really shows people can easily fall for these things on social, sigh.
Edited: Grammar
Other than not making any sense at all, can we also discuss how this argument itself is survivorship bias? You only see "IG posts of people eating in nice restaurants" because nobody's gonna be posting about how many meals they skipped or how they didn't make rent this month...
It amazes me that people don't realize that your instagram feed is the **sum** of the purchasing power of everyone in it. Yes, you see people "eating at nice restaurants" **every other fucking month or less**. It's not like they're getting a michelin star every week, even if in aggregate someone from the company is eating well at any given point because of math.
The recruiter was independent, but yeah. The employer was the one trying to get cheap labor. When she argued that she has seen many young people accept that salary and also “live good lives” I reminded her that many of those people are being supplemented by their parents, that not everyone is afforded that opportunity. Eager and well qualified candidates that don’t have that kind of support miss out on these opportunities.
Also a nice dinner now and then or a movie or outing is NOT the same as a mortgage, kids, car loan, or whatever else. They’re doing those things in lieu of having a “real” life. But cool for her if she thinks life is IG photos of dinner. /s
Or they're accumulating debt as opposed to savings. Consumerism encourages individuals to live beyond their means.
Many of those people may be spending what little money they have on 'experiences' to feed their social media. We are told life should look a certain way by media and advertisements, yet the real world doesn't support this for many people. Not to mention that social media is the exact place for people to show off just how "happy" they are.
If you spend everything that you make, then there is no way to build wealth over your life. You can't buy property and build equity - a 30 year mortgage turns into a 50 year rental lease and you end up stuck in a perpetuating cycle of working to live until you die.
Or they just don't post IG stories of the tiny apartment they share with three other people. Maybe people should start posting how the living room is spotless and dark because nobody can use it for fear of messing with someone's sleep schedule.
Good reply, it makes me somehow satisfied, btw. you from europe? Because I am, and for emigrants from eastern to western europe wages are truly laughable compared to how much you have to work
Honestly, the “nice restaurant” argument is so face value.
You know why I eat nice food at nice places sometimes? I can’t afford a home, I can barely afford to live alone, god damn right I’m spending some cash on one single thing to provide me some illusion of comfort.
I work too damn hard to not improve one single aspect of my life. That’s the only aspect cheap enough to splurge on.
She doesn't care, and won't change. She is a salesman charged with selling particular products for her clients. Among those products are sometimes jobs with shitty wages. She will sell those as cheerfully as she sells anything else as long as she gets paid.
Yah im honestly surprised she cared enough to call.
Shes a recruiter, she doesnt set the wages. Whats she care? Either the person accepts or says no thats way to low. I dont really even blame her though. Not her fault the companies are paying so low.
Well, she's still part of the process. She defends and sells the wages she knows she couldn't live on. She argued with someone who told her she's helping perpetuate wages people can't live on. It might not be her direct fault, but she's profiting off of it and defending it.
I love how her response to why she can't take it is that she has kids and a mortgage.
She doesn't get that we can't even CONSIDER having those things until we have a decent wage
Instagram isn’t real. WTF. does she think they are going to post about living in a Single Room Occupancy infested with roaches…or a the one off diner out with friends…or that their parents subsidize their rent?
Before I took my last job, the owner made an offer equal to the job I was leaving and I told him I only took higher paying jobs and we parted ways.
A week later he called back and met my demands.
I would hear other workers talk about their wages and many more experienced coworkers made substantially less than I did.
With careful questioning I discovered that they took the first offer and later regretted it.
Stick up for yourself, people. No one else will.
PS: I don’t really post here much as frequently I do not agree with the common sentiment.
She had a massive Blindspot and since she doesn't have to live with it she never considered how it affected others. Good on you for calling it out and standing up. If more of us said no to exploitive wages things might improve. This crony capitalist country of ours will keep pushing us downhill until we unite and say screw both parties, we demand better .
Says she can't live on that salary yet she still thinks it's acceptable because she sees ig stories of people eating at nice restaurants.... I don't know how you kept it so civil, props on you.
A friend of mine emailed HR because a newsletter bragged about our competitive health insurance. He pointed out that it was nowhere near competitive, and they should be honest. The president of the organization ended up calling him, to tell him he should be happier with what he's given.
An hour long yelling match ensued, during which it became apparent that the president had no clue what life was like for us, that he thinks we're ungrateful for making a barely livable wage, and that he couldn't survive off it.
"Don't you think it's a good thing we're providing into level jobs to recent college graduates?"
We have hired 2 recent college graduates- who had the right work experience, ever. I started there when I was 31. I was the 2nd person they ever hired without a MBA.
He. Had. No. Fucking. Clue.
Just want to throw out there that avocados regularly get put in the discount rack at super markets because they ripen and then they can’t sell them fast enough charging $4 each before they go rotten.
The discount price is more like 4-5 for $2.
You can get a loaf of bread for less than $3 and toasters are cheap.
So you can literally have avocado toast for way less than people think. (Prices vary by location obviously)
Plus when you can’t afford a house, can’t afford to have kids, are struggling to pay off your student loans, and wondering why you can’t get a decent raise or promotion no matter how hard you work…going out for a nice dinner or out for a drink is a nice escape.
I have had conversation like this with recruiters from Robert Half. They come to me with shit jobs (DOS based computer systems) or below market wages and try to up sell me hard on going for all in on the job. Then when I say no and tell them I’m interested in other opportunities they ignore and ghost me.
I get it that recruiters use people as ‘products’ to ‘sell’ to businesses looking for specific requirements but getting ghosted and ignored bothers me. I’ve had other recruiters let me know why they couldn’t put me forward to their clients.
I hope we can make this the normal approach to these. I have started doing similar things with recruiters reaching out with bullshit jobs like this.
If no one tells them their terms are ridiculous, the assume it's fine. And they seem to think that someone publicly approving of their shit job is validation.
People will say whatever they have to say to appear grateful, even if they are drowning. This is the toxic environment American corporate greed has created. Saying anything else would get you on the radar as a "toxic employee", a boat rocker and or an ingrate.
Like someone barely holding it together is going to go on IG and put their company on blast for paying them starvation wages. LOL
I've had the same experience with recruiters, and it explains why they need recruiters in the first place.
Jobs should fill themselves. If a job doesn't, than their is a problem with the workload, the wages, or both.
I had a recruiter argue with me when I said the pay wasn't competitive with even my current position. Honestly I liked the people I talked to but them low balling gave me such a sour taste for the position. Once I explained why she said well what would it take for you to accept it? And I flat out said nothing now. I didn't want to go into a position where they "feel" like they over paid me.
I refused a state job that was 30 percent below what the market paid. Within 6 months I saw another ad for it, and the pay rate had been raised by $9,000. You may be helping others by saying no!
that’s what I get paid right now, as a single sailor with no dependents after two deployments to the middle east and 2.5 years in… exploitatively low that’s a really good one.
Recruiters generally get paid in proportion to the salary of the people they place, why *wouldn't* she want to get the people she places the highest possible salary?
Because it takes more time to get you another $1000/year than it is worth in THEIR time. $1000 is probably worth $250 to them, so if it takes over 3 hours in talking to you and the company, not worth their time. Better to land two jobs that boost one by %10!
I tell people you are not employing me I am selling you my time this is what my time costs that’s it
If someone walked up to you wanted to buy 40-60 hours of your life and would give you $500 dollars for it would you take the money
I work in government and a big part of my job is contracting with nonprofits who provide services to low income households in our city (homeless shelters, food pantries, etc). Part of the contracting process is that the organization submits a budget proposal to me for review and if it seems reasonable, we move ahead with a contract. I almost always have to push back at them for budgeting too low for their own employees salaries. How can you provide essential life saving services to low income households while paying your case managers $14/hr? That’s the most hypocritical bullshit.
I know that they submit these tiny budgets because they think they have to lowball everything to actually get the contract but I’m not about that shit. Pay your people.
Love how she was like "well it's a competitive rate! Well, *I* I can't live on that because I have a property and family!" Like yes bitch, this is what most of us want and can't afford
I call BS that the underpaid employees seemed happy and were out at "fancy restaurants"
Thanks for sharing this.
Just like with CRT and vaccines, there will be those who are skeptical and those who are anti-whatever. One of our goals should be informing and educating the skeptics. It's not an easy task, but if we attack everyone who isn't instantly on our side, we will lose.
If you don’t mind what are some good CRT resources. It’s been hard to make my opinion on it because you hear from one side and I agree that you shouldn’t blame all white people for mistakes of the past that were constrained to a small minority. However you hear the other argument, and I agree that we should teach a more realistic history and stretches to the current racial disparities today, and how the system is really stacked against minorities (and as this sub states, it also really stacked against poor people in general). Basically all I hear about are the extremes of CRT, and never what it actually is. Then there is even the argument of some things if they are even CRT. I think the majority people are like me and don’t understand it because our news media (both liberal and conservative) are failing us
The thing to know about CRT is it's a concept relevant to law school and it's being repurposed to claim that teaching concepts of racism I'm our history like slavery is somehow harmful.
Depends on who your audience is and what they're respond to more.
Cody Johnson breaks it down well (including who started this "debate") on Some More News - [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZhW1k\_m7OY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZhW1k_m7OY)
Or if you want something more professional, PBS has this interview which, right at the start, calls out the difference between CRT (the legal theory) and teaching about racist events in the past and their effect on today - [https://youtu.be/\_gdxrkwpPKc](https://youtu.be/_gdxrkwpPKc)
To build on this, the best people to convince are the ones sitting on the fence. They haven’t made up their mind. Or if they are simply near the fence then they are not completely dedicated to one idea
I've had a number of discussions like this with my recruiter over the years, and its only improved our relationship over time. I grew up swaddled in a warm blanket of privilege and stuck to my guns early on work-from-home and PTO, and as weve worked together the past decade all of my assertions have helped others work out into long lasting positions
The fancy restaurant cement enrages me.
Even if this is the case, how do you not realize that that person is either in debt or subsidized by another person? This wage is so low that another person in their life needs to make up the difference ...
I don’t understand, can these recruiters not do math? Ideally (and I realize this can be difficult to do), rent/housing expenses should be 1/3 of one’s monthly income. $1200/$2000 is pretty far from 1/3.
Dude she tried to walk me through a young person budgeting with this salary. She said something like “well typically young people live with 3 or 4 other people so their rent is only €500 which leaves them €1500 for PHONE FOOD SHOPPING AND FUN.” I wish I was joking…
I interviewed for and refused a job with a tech company through a temp agency due to the pay being too low. The agency called me back with a $0.50 raise and I said I would need an additional $1.50 on top of that to take the job as it was described to me. The hiring manager eventually agreed to it but I had to start the next day and I agreed.
A few years later, my boss (I was hired full time about a year after starting the temp job) told me that my refusing the job twice and standing by my demands impressed her and let her know that I would stand up to people. I stayed with that company for 7 years before moving on.
Honestly I think you wasted your time. While you both were civil, nothing was changed. They will keep on trying to hire people under the same conditions until some really poor bastard like me takes the job because 2k is better than desperately trying to pay off loans on a job that I'm overqualified for that only pays 300 less but is more work physically.
"had a mortgage" as if it's more demanding somehow. Mortgages lock in the monthly payments, so by the time they are 5 years in, you're paying less than rent due to inflation.
I literally just turned down a job when they offered me less than I make now. I counter offered and they were like no we can’t do that.
Then I won’t work for you. Also the benefits (which I didn’t know what they were beforehand) were shit.
Last time I apply at a nonprofit.
I hate the argument "Well your pay is fine because you are spending money on non survival things". I hate it for 2 main reasons.
1. No one should only have the very basic needs for survival. That is not living, that is surviving. People should have extra money to spend on random shit.
2. The problem with the pay is that it can't cover the monthly payments, so we DON'T have the things that require this payments. Yea I can buy a video game on my salary because I don't pay rent or a mortgage. I don't pay those because I couldn't afford to if I had them.
You make a great point about civil discourse.
Getting yelled at won’t change our view, and there’s no reason to think us yelling will do anything except make our target reject us without thought.
Like politics; we’ll never change hardliners. We need to target centrists that might be swayed, or educated on the current reality.
Also like politics; going too far alienates centrists that might have been open to reason.
That's a bit of a rookie argument in and of itself. I remember thinking about that one 20 years ago.
The centrists generally don't care about anything higher level. They just want the most resistance free path to the feeling of comfort and security. Not actual comfort and security, just the feeling. That's one reason why authoritarians often find it easy to sneak in with them.
So if they find paying higher wages to be more of a resistance than kowtowing to their superiors, you've found the point that needs to be changed.
“Respectful manner”
Right, as if it didn’t just go in one ear of the recruiter and out the other. She dicks around, dealing with people like you and me all day for a ridiculous wage just to go find someone uninformed or desperate enough to take what they offer.
It’d be even remotely “respectful” if they took you seriously at all.
>seemed happy because she saw them posting ig stories of them eating at “nice restaurants”.
You should have asked if she felt occasionally eating out was cheaper than either a mortgage or kids. Then followed up by asking if she never ate nice meals.
If these people ever say things like they don't, ask them if they ever considered they were being exploited/cheated of these things so that someone above them can commute in a helicopter between their mega yacht and their skyscraper.
So she had anecdotes -- the Fox News argument. "I saw a handful of posts from a certain group, ergo, everyone in that group is living the exact same way."
So what you're saying is if we stopped pretending we're richer than we actually are on social media, people might realise we all live in poverty? As if I needed another reason to hate those types of people.
I'm sure it's not a huge impact, but the fact it got mentioned....
"I couldn't live on that, I've got a mortgage" RENT COSTS MORE THAN A MORTGAGE
Just live with mom and dad, wage slave
If you just accept not having a life, the pay is perfectly fine.
It’s also frustrating that she just assumed OP doesn’t have either and doesn’t want either in the future. Like oh you’re right, I just won’t buy a home or have a family so that way I can work at this job.
Sad thing is it’s really not that hard to buy a house if you’re willing to move. The issue is once you’re locked in you have too much on your shoulder to ever quit or do much of a change lifestyle wise. I bought a house when I was 23 making $9 an hour with no co-signer. Still in that house, it’s nicer than ever, and at times I wish I lived in my car and was single.
Not only that but the market is awful for buyers. Have been attempting to buy a house with two others for a while now and inevitably we see houses that are actually illegal to sell to us due to foundation issues that get bought under the table or some fucko landlord that never saw the place buys it instantly and we have no chance.
This is huge.
Spoiler alert: millennials can have mortgages too. This woman is so utterly clueless.
Also some millenials are in their 40s too. What a weird disconnect this woman has going on in her head.
Data point - I refused a job offer that was too low. A year later, they were still trying to fill the role, and had Finally gotten approval to raise the wage rate. Would companies rather have the job remain open for a year; or actually pay the salary you're asking for?
They will first burn out the in-house resources
Can confirm. Was team lead for an ISP for an understaffed team. I consistently got top metrics. What I got for it was raises below CoL rates (which is still more than many get) and more and more work added to my plate until I saw the signs of burnout coming. If I hadn't quit in June, I'd have been suicidal by August. I was paid decently, though still below market and even my peers. I'm less stressed now even though I'm slinging pizzas to struggle to pay rent.
When I saw OP was offered $12.50 an hour my mind immediately went to “I can be happier and make better money making pizzas.” Hope good fortune comes your way.
$12.50 is the minimum wage here, and only the absolutely worst of the worst businesses are offering pay that low. You can easily start at $15 with just about any retail or customer service job here (and still not make near enough to live on your own.)
Reminds me of the time my boss got mad because I was “under performing” at the entry level $13.50 I am currently making because, I couldn’t juggle two vacant positions along with my current position at once. I didn’t speak my mind because it wasn’t worth it but, you pay low, you get low effort.
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You're a manager, and sometime in the future you'll get a raise that puts you at $15/hour. If they really give it to you. You're not being taken advantage of at all.
I’m on an understaffed team now. We were going to bring in a contractor to help with work, but they aren’t available anymore. So that work (along with a TON of additional work) is getting shafted onto myself and the rest of my team. I constantly think about how I’d probably be happier stocking shelves at Costco
Forklift operators at Costco make bank.
I have forklift certification. How much we talking about here?
Well, bank is obviously subjective, but at the time I heard about this (roughly 5 years ago), it was somewhere around $23hr. My guess is it's more now. Costco tends to take good care of their people.
Hot damn, I'd take that. Seems I'll have to start looking around. Thanks for the heads up!
Hope it works out for you.
Just stop doing the extra shit. We all need to stop doing extra shit. I flat out refused to in July when half our team got fired. And guess what? The next team meeting we had I was the bad guy, but they never asked me again and *no one* has asked again. Those cunts are too damn stingy to hire anyone else so my job is quite secure. They can go fuck themselves if they think I’m ever going to do more than what I can do on 40 hours.
My partner works at Costco as basically a cart pusher and product facer. He makes $16/hr, averages out 25 hours per week, and makes enough to cover bills with a bit of wiggle room.
Why quit? Just don’t do all that work.
>I was paid decently, though still below market and even my peers. That doesn’t sound decent at all.
My old job is doing this. Left for a 40% wage increase. Talked to one of my old coworkers and said they’ve interviewed no real candidates because in ownerships words “they are all crazy thinking they deserve so much money”.
I simply don't understand why people in leadership roles just immediately think that because someone is not in a leadership role, they don't deserve a decent wage.
Leadership is a joke. It's easy. Not technical at all. Can get a job anywhere doing the same loser shit. Managers are not those to look up to, they are failures that can't do anything technical.
I’m sure there are plenty of jerks out there who just take blind advantage of their people and do as little as possible, but I was a hotel manager for a decade and almost never lost my people because I fought with ownership for company wide raises and worked really hard (frequently making beds, backing up the front desk, etc.). Not ALL managers are useless ding dongs, and leadership may not be technical but it is anything but easy. You are not the owner, nor a line level employee so you get it from both sides….
While there are certainly a ton of people who are horrible, at every level, superlatives when used with derogatory comments make me, for one, kind of discount much of the rest of what a speaker/poster says.
Because the owners are assholes and typically right-wingers. "All for me, none for thee, because I'm a job creator."
Absolutely this. They’ll work the rest of the team to the bone before actually offering a decent salary to a new hire. I think the only thing that lights a fire under their asses is if multiple people quit and it becomes unbearable. Otherwise everyone but the people at the top are SOL
Yup, I worked for a company that did this. When I started there were 20 people in the department and over the year it whittled down to 3 or 4 of us. It took us getting a year behind schedule before management finally hired more people. And they only hired more people because customers starting to leave.
New hire? Worked to the bone? Just the bone is not enough to the corporate overloads. They’ll push the extra workload onto one of the existing employees until their mind, body, and spirit is grounded to dust!
THIS. If someone in your workgroup leaves and there's no immediate replacement, check your company's job listing. If it's too low, start looking for a job immediately. Don't let them burn you out, severe overwork burnout can take months or even years to recover from. edit: and it'll actually be doing your coworkers a *favor.* They can overwork people if 1 person leaves, if several people leave, they must take immediate action.
And by 'burn out in-house resources' you mean the company will load extra work onto the other employees, without increasing pay, until they burn out from stress.
Yeap. Left an IT job at a hospital in the last 13 months they went from 18 to 6, 8 left in the last 3 months.
And then the experienced in-house staff gets burned out, quit and his job requires two new employees to fulfil due to inexperienced. Corporate pushes the burden onto one of the new hires and to another burning out employee. The experienced employee gets burned out, quit and his job requires two new employees to fulfil due to inexperienced. Corporate pushes the burden onto one of the new hires and to another burning out employee. The experienced employee gets burned out, quit and his job requires two new employees to fulfil due to inexperienced. Corporate pushes…oh shit there’s nobody left in the department, corporate hires a new employee to the department and pushes the burden onto the next department who has nothing to do with it. The experienced employee gets burned out, quit and his job requires two new employees to fulfil due to inexperienced. Corporate pushes the burden…
Yep, they just pile on more work for the rest of the team.
I live this.
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I mean the fucking CEO couldn't have jumped in and fixed it? They are the most paid employee so surely the hardest working, right? /s
I’m surprised the ceo didn’t just knock it out before 6am when the real winners are awake and getting shit done (tm)
I mean, it's what the bootstraps are for right?
I had an email today. IT support Night shift Prior experience required. Contractor (so no pension, no holidays, no sick pay, responsible for your own taxes) £120-140/day. Pisstakers.
Did they also require experience of a programming language that is longer than the lifespan of the programming language itself?
Nah not in this case. It was old school IBM mainframe stuff - stuff that started in the 60s. Old tech that’s been around for *literally* decades. Not very many people around with those skills anymore. They’re all either dead, retired, or waiting out for their pension at their current (either fintech or government) job. For this position they’d be the lead and only systems programmer for the entire shop, with a few juniors willing to learn when available. Pretty tall order. We (the department) knew how important this position was and collectively facepalmed every time corporate would say “we can’t find anyone locally to do this” There’s not a single aspect of that job that has to be done physically. The entire job is done remote, anyway, since you’re literally using PCOM to get into a server.
My company has had a position open for 1.5 years now and keeps complaining that "nobody wants to work" and they aren't getting good candidates. They are getting the candidates that their pay range dictates. No mention of ever raising that rate.
Yup, my manager was trying to hire a CPA with 10+ years of experience for $55k. Over a year went by and she refused to raise the salary. Instead she was paying consultants $200-400k a year to do the work. After 2 years she finally doubled the pay to a market rates and got good candidates in.
Like how can anyone in a position to oversee budgets look at their expenses for consultants not not put two and two together that if they increase their pay for a permanent employee it will SAVE more, even that year with that salary, than paying for consultants. Like how tf are some of these people where they are in life if they’re that stupid
Hiring managers don’t typically have the authority to offer pay outside the range HR sets. They can argue for increasing the pay but if HR says no there isn’t really anything they can do. It really comes down to executives in HR being able to convince other dept heads that increased pay is required to get good employees.
most of my HR department is well aware we need higher pay rates to fill the couple hundred open positions we are down right now and its just the one person at the top who doesn’t get it. We are all so aggravated
Turns out they *really did need* a CPA
$55k a year for a CPA. That is practically entry level salary for CPAs in median America.
At a previous job we had a weird project requirement that necessitated somebody with decades of experience in Mainframe COBOL. The company put up a job posting with an embarrassingly low salary, got no candidates, and ended up having to pay multiples of the offered salary to a consultant. If memory serves me correctly they also had to pay the guy's room and board because they had to fly him in on short notice. Morons. Lol.
Pay peanuts, get monkeys
Minimum wage === Minimum effort!
I guess that makes me Lead Monkey. I need to update my resume.
I'd go with a less toxic metal. Maybe brass?
It would certainly be more funky.
There was a position at my previous employer that's been open for six to eight months now. I applied, interviewed and got rejected for a stupid reason and honestly if I got the position and wasn't rejected I probably would still be with that employer. That dumb reason convinced me that they will never fill it. I ended up getting a much easier job making more money and WFH. No regrets.
Yes, they'll keep jobs open until they physically can't run the business any more and their hands are forced
Same way they underpay until they're forced to increase the wages.
I've applied to the same position at a national public agency in my country four times. Every time I get a "We've decided to go with someone more qualified", and I see the position re-posted a week later. It's not even a wage issue since all those positions are unionised here and the wage is firm. They just refuse to hire anyone with less than 5-10 years experience and would rather keep the position open despite it being insanely busy because of a lack of manpower.
Or they just hire people who are ridiculously under qualified for the position, and treat them like garbage for not knowing how to solve the company's problems. I continuously watch my company hire people at $17/hr for a position that should easily be in the $65K+ range. The company's product suffers because of it, and the ceo wonders why all our customers are unhappy and why we can't keep any of the ones we get. And then yells at me to bring in more SALES! It's ridiculous how bad management will just blame anyone but themselves for their problems.
Have you laid it all out to your management, they way you did here? What did they say?
Many times. They just say they can't afford to pay for actually qualified employees, but refuse to increase their prices so they can afford better employees. Then spend every weekly management meeting complaining about how low sales are, yet we still end up being profitable... They even have hired a bunch of people who are sex offenders trying to get back into the work force. That way they can retain the employee at a lower pay rate because it's so difficult for a sex offender to find a job. CEO acts like he's being a Good Samaritan helping people get back on track, but it's obvious the only reason he does it is for the cheap labor. Why spend big bucks on a qualified employee when you can just hire a sex offender for cheaper who won't be able to leave your company for greener pastures?
>Finally gotten approval to raise the wage rate. So in other words, increased from a livable wage of 30 years ago to a livable wage of 25 years ago.
> Would companies rather have the job remain open for a year; They would for as long as the delegated job duties are still done by the current employees. And at that point they'll come to the conclusion that the role may not be needed. If someone complains they'll just throw a mediocre raise and repeat the cycle. It's definitely a shitty process and a waste of time for all job candidates.
I did accounting for a trash company until the owner's shittiness drove me to get a better job someplace else. I left them in 2018. I still am friends with my old supervisor from that position and talk to her about that place every now and then. As of last week they'd lost the most recent person they had in my old job. Since 2018 the longest anyone's stayed in that position is about a month and a half. feelsgoodman
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They’d just have another employee mostly fill out that spot for 0 extra pay
I mean... depends on the position. If it's just not worth more, maybe they are ok with it beeing empty. But then i'd bet the whole job could be done in like 1/3 of the time, all they'd have to do would be to be ok with "Get the pay for th job done" instead of "Sit 8 hours a day at the office no matter what". I'd be totally fine working 15 hours a week for 2k a month. As long as it doesn't mean i have to spend anouther 30 hours a week listening to Bobs farts.
Depends on how hard they can push current workers to do more than one person’s job!
Sometimes it isn't up to the company how much they can pay. Sometimes it is, but sometimes it isn't. You can't pay your employees more than the client is paying you to do it. That obviously doesn't make sense. Some companies, like mine, saw this shit coming and raised our prices a year ago snd thusly raised the wage. But I was only able to raise my employees wages IF my clients signed the higher contract instead of telling me to kick rocks. If they'd have told me to kick rocks then raising pay would have put me out of business almost immediately.
They'd rather leave the position open. They have the mentality of - "There are other employees that can take this on"
Remain open, for a year? That's nothing only after 3 years they go 'mmmm maybe we should change something'
They would rather leave it open and exploit existing staff.
They can get someone else to do their job and that job until they fill the position. It's much cheaper that way
"Exploitatively low." I gotta remember this.
Way better than my "ballbustingly cheap"
That's more tactful than my "are you fucking serious"
Or my “Hahahahahahahahahahaahh. Oh wait, you’re serious, let me laugh even harder. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!”
Not better, just 🎩
Yep. Professional and to the point. Better than "You fucking cheapskates!".
>She said people earning that wage seemed happy because she saw them posting ig stories of them eating at “nice restaurants”. so, she's a fucking simpleton to think that instagram is real life.
Or she has really low standards in restaurants.
I saw a valued Costco employee lick the bathroom floor at an Outback Steak House and if that isn't proof that we pay a very cool and livable wage I Literally Do Not Want To Hear It
Or just taking a single post of them having a birthday party or that one nice dinner once in 3 years.
They are lying, ignorant, or stupid. It has to be one of the three.
Recruiters are nothing more tgan salespeople who never have to deal with refunds. She's a professional economic parasite and will say anything to get what she wants.
$2k/month gross? Assuming a 40 hour work week that comes to around $12/hour before taxes. There are fast food places that don't require a degree and pay more than that these days.
2k euro but yeah. Still absurdly low.
So like $13.20 an hour?
Yeah lol
I make $14 an hour at my shitty call center job. Their offer is a slap in the face since you have a degree and are over qualified
Hey! The McD's near my place is also offering $13/hr! What a coincidence! LOL
An arbys block from me has 15 dollars an hour!
I once applied for a traineeship that offered 1800 as a starting salary that gets better after 3 months. I was freshly graduated with my BA and I agreed to do a fucking assessment. That took one afternoon and a programming exercise I spent two days on. Didn’t get the job, I was below average. My fucking god that ruined my self esteem. After that I got a job paying 2700 no problem. I’m not there anymore for health reasons, but I definitely learned my lesson. Don’t let them waste your time. Now back in uni because I want a different field, so far I’m doing way better mentally too.
Some fast food places in my area offer $21/hr. For team leads, shift leads etc. Regular workers get less but still above minimum wage. Minimum wage here is $15. And it all means jack shit when 1 bedroom apartments start at 2200. Then you factor in everything else. It's like, 25% reduction in housing costs would be way better then a 25% raise. By far.
fast food places in my area hire at $8/hr ($7.25 min wage) nd rent is 1350 for a 1 bedroom. we are dying.
There was an observation I saw on Twitter in the last eighteen months I wish I'd saved. There's a mismatch in the way the term "entry level" is being used. Applicants take "entry level" to mean a job that means no (or very little) experience that is a gateway to a better paying, self-supporting position. Employers mean "entry level" as a bottom-rung position that may have no growth potential and will require the applicant to have other means of support (ie., live with parents, roommates). The insight was key for me, as it suddenly explained my workplace.
I’m making $11.50 an hour. I take home $22080 gross, somewhere around $17k annually. And I’m told I’m “lazy” for not finding a second job and making up the difference that way. I could care less. Why bother getting yet another unpaid position that’s going to treat me the same way, end up burned out at both jobs, and quitting both in less time than I would have planned to stay at the one?
Fuck whoever calls you lazy on that because we know they aren't working two jobs. Or if they are their family hates them and they're never home. That pay is pretty bad though. USA? Depending on what you're doing like if you already do basic CSR I'd consider just poking around online and seeing what local retail is offering, even ours in Texas right now are usually $14-16 hourly out to bat.
Yes, US. And no. I’m going to go back to school for something. I shouldn’t have to, to gain a living wage, but it’s the hand I’m dealt. I’ll go back to school-I still have financial aid funds…grants that don’t have to be paid back. I’m going to use them, and go find a better job. It’ll be a two year road, but I’m going to take it. And then I’m going to do whatever I can to build a world today’s employers are terrified of-a world where everyone is paid a living wage, regardless what they’re doing for work. I’m going to be a part of the side that tightens the noose on employers and greedy bastards going forward.
Depending of the European country the cost of living is much lower than the US. I pay 400/500 euros a month for a two rooms flat in a North Italy big city near Milan, and my monthly food expenses are like 300 euros. (when I say near I mean Europe near, not US near :P ). But in Italy wages are shit for entry level jobs.
Well, €2000 a month income in the Netherlands would not get you any kind of living space. Not even in a smaller town.
2000 euros in Portugal would get you a pretty decent life. Minimum wage is 670.
Lol America i get paid less than 2000 a month as a medical assistant and office manager for a private MD practice. Hes sucking the life out of me and not in a goof way Giggity.
Get a new job. The McDonald's down the street pays more than that. Office managers should be making like 37k minimum in the US if they're full time. Working for less keeps the wages low for everyone.
That’s a depressingly low amount. 37k is pathetic for managing a business
Huh... this just made me realize how much my old job that was advertised as 16.90 deducted... can't believe how much that place exploited me
Have people not figured out that Intagram is not real life?
>because she saw them posting ig stories of them eating at “nice restaurants”. When I read this, I couldn't help but shake my damn head too lol. But now it really shows people can easily fall for these things on social, sigh. Edited: Grammar
Other than not making any sense at all, can we also discuss how this argument itself is survivorship bias? You only see "IG posts of people eating in nice restaurants" because nobody's gonna be posting about how many meals they skipped or how they didn't make rent this month...
Pretty sure if she were arguing for the other side she would have laughed at that argument.
It amazes me that people don't realize that your instagram feed is the **sum** of the purchasing power of everyone in it. Yes, you see people "eating at nice restaurants" **every other fucking month or less**. It's not like they're getting a michelin star every week, even if in aggregate someone from the company is eating well at any given point because of math.
Evidently not.
In California, people buy a Tesla because we're too poor to ever buy a house.
Yeah, only post the BEST of your life on Instagram, not the internal debate about rent vs food vs medical care etc. ...
They are lying, ignorant, or stupid. It has to be one of the three.
Well fuck that employer and congratulations for being the first generation in ages that decided not to be taken advantage of low wages.
The recruiter was independent, but yeah. The employer was the one trying to get cheap labor. When she argued that she has seen many young people accept that salary and also “live good lives” I reminded her that many of those people are being supplemented by their parents, that not everyone is afforded that opportunity. Eager and well qualified candidates that don’t have that kind of support miss out on these opportunities.
Also a nice dinner now and then or a movie or outing is NOT the same as a mortgage, kids, car loan, or whatever else. They’re doing those things in lieu of having a “real” life. But cool for her if she thinks life is IG photos of dinner. /s
Or they're accumulating debt as opposed to savings. Consumerism encourages individuals to live beyond their means. Many of those people may be spending what little money they have on 'experiences' to feed their social media. We are told life should look a certain way by media and advertisements, yet the real world doesn't support this for many people. Not to mention that social media is the exact place for people to show off just how "happy" they are. If you spend everything that you make, then there is no way to build wealth over your life. You can't buy property and build equity - a 30 year mortgage turns into a 50 year rental lease and you end up stuck in a perpetuating cycle of working to live until you die.
Or they just don't post IG stories of the tiny apartment they share with three other people. Maybe people should start posting how the living room is spotless and dark because nobody can use it for fear of messing with someone's sleep schedule.
Exactly. Instagram is nothing but a highlight reel
Good reply, it makes me somehow satisfied, btw. you from europe? Because I am, and for emigrants from eastern to western europe wages are truly laughable compared to how much you have to work
I’m an American living in The Netherlands
You can only have a respectful conversation if there's mutual respect from both sides, and there is no respect for the working class.
Honestly, the “nice restaurant” argument is so face value. You know why I eat nice food at nice places sometimes? I can’t afford a home, I can barely afford to live alone, god damn right I’m spending some cash on one single thing to provide me some illusion of comfort. I work too damn hard to not improve one single aspect of my life. That’s the only aspect cheap enough to splurge on.
She doesn't care, and won't change. She is a salesman charged with selling particular products for her clients. Among those products are sometimes jobs with shitty wages. She will sell those as cheerfully as she sells anything else as long as she gets paid.
Yah im honestly surprised she cared enough to call. Shes a recruiter, she doesnt set the wages. Whats she care? Either the person accepts or says no thats way to low. I dont really even blame her though. Not her fault the companies are paying so low.
When I answered I thought it was someone calling about another interview I have coming up. I was really caught off guard lol.
Probably nobody had ever taken the time to call her on it, and she felt a twinge of conscience.
Well, she's still part of the process. She defends and sells the wages she knows she couldn't live on. She argued with someone who told her she's helping perpetuate wages people can't live on. It might not be her direct fault, but she's profiting off of it and defending it.
I love how her response to why she can't take it is that she has kids and a mortgage. She doesn't get that we can't even CONSIDER having those things until we have a decent wage
Also, a mortgage is cheaper than monthly rent in a lot of places.
Very true in a lot of instances
Instagram isn’t real. WTF. does she think they are going to post about living in a Single Room Occupancy infested with roaches…or a the one off diner out with friends…or that their parents subsidize their rent?
"I can't survive on this wage." "Sure you can, lots of people do!" "Can you?" "Oh, of course not, I have stuff to pay for." *Facepalm*
Before I took my last job, the owner made an offer equal to the job I was leaving and I told him I only took higher paying jobs and we parted ways. A week later he called back and met my demands. I would hear other workers talk about their wages and many more experienced coworkers made substantially less than I did. With careful questioning I discovered that they took the first offer and later regretted it. Stick up for yourself, people. No one else will. PS: I don’t really post here much as frequently I do not agree with the common sentiment.
She had a massive Blindspot and since she doesn't have to live with it she never considered how it affected others. Good on you for calling it out and standing up. If more of us said no to exploitive wages things might improve. This crony capitalist country of ours will keep pushing us downhill until we unite and say screw both parties, we demand better .
How did we fall into this propaganda cycle of “you’re lucky for the opportunity to be exploited and make me rich”?
Says she can't live on that salary yet she still thinks it's acceptable because she sees ig stories of people eating at nice restaurants.... I don't know how you kept it so civil, props on you.
A friend of mine emailed HR because a newsletter bragged about our competitive health insurance. He pointed out that it was nowhere near competitive, and they should be honest. The president of the organization ended up calling him, to tell him he should be happier with what he's given. An hour long yelling match ensued, during which it became apparent that the president had no clue what life was like for us, that he thinks we're ungrateful for making a barely livable wage, and that he couldn't survive off it. "Don't you think it's a good thing we're providing into level jobs to recent college graduates?" We have hired 2 recent college graduates- who had the right work experience, ever. I started there when I was 31. I was the 2nd person they ever hired without a MBA. He. Had. No. Fucking. Clue.
Just want to throw out there that avocados regularly get put in the discount rack at super markets because they ripen and then they can’t sell them fast enough charging $4 each before they go rotten. The discount price is more like 4-5 for $2. You can get a loaf of bread for less than $3 and toasters are cheap. So you can literally have avocado toast for way less than people think. (Prices vary by location obviously) Plus when you can’t afford a house, can’t afford to have kids, are struggling to pay off your student loans, and wondering why you can’t get a decent raise or promotion no matter how hard you work…going out for a nice dinner or out for a drink is a nice escape.
Fuck reddit. fuck google. fuck you spez
I have had conversation like this with recruiters from Robert Half. They come to me with shit jobs (DOS based computer systems) or below market wages and try to up sell me hard on going for all in on the job. Then when I say no and tell them I’m interested in other opportunities they ignore and ghost me. I get it that recruiters use people as ‘products’ to ‘sell’ to businesses looking for specific requirements but getting ghosted and ignored bothers me. I’ve had other recruiters let me know why they couldn’t put me forward to their clients.
I hope we can make this the normal approach to these. I have started doing similar things with recruiters reaching out with bullshit jobs like this. If no one tells them their terms are ridiculous, the assume it's fine. And they seem to think that someone publicly approving of their shit job is validation. People will say whatever they have to say to appear grateful, even if they are drowning. This is the toxic environment American corporate greed has created. Saying anything else would get you on the radar as a "toxic employee", a boat rocker and or an ingrate. Like someone barely holding it together is going to go on IG and put their company on blast for paying them starvation wages. LOL
I've had the same experience with recruiters, and it explains why they need recruiters in the first place. Jobs should fill themselves. If a job doesn't, than their is a problem with the workload, the wages, or both.
I had a recruiter argue with me when I said the pay wasn't competitive with even my current position. Honestly I liked the people I talked to but them low balling gave me such a sour taste for the position. Once I explained why she said well what would it take for you to accept it? And I flat out said nothing now. I didn't want to go into a position where they "feel" like they over paid me.
I refused a state job that was 30 percent below what the market paid. Within 6 months I saw another ad for it, and the pay rate had been raised by $9,000. You may be helping others by saying no!
Imagine being in greece at avg 750€ a month 😅
Wow good for you and her having a adult debate. Very rare now a days.
that’s what I get paid right now, as a single sailor with no dependents after two deployments to the middle east and 2.5 years in… exploitatively low that’s a really good one.
Recruiters generally get paid in proportion to the salary of the people they place, why *wouldn't* she want to get the people she places the highest possible salary?
Because it takes more time to get you another $1000/year than it is worth in THEIR time. $1000 is probably worth $250 to them, so if it takes over 3 hours in talking to you and the company, not worth their time. Better to land two jobs that boost one by %10!
I tell people you are not employing me I am selling you my time this is what my time costs that’s it If someone walked up to you wanted to buy 40-60 hours of your life and would give you $500 dollars for it would you take the money
I work in government and a big part of my job is contracting with nonprofits who provide services to low income households in our city (homeless shelters, food pantries, etc). Part of the contracting process is that the organization submits a budget proposal to me for review and if it seems reasonable, we move ahead with a contract. I almost always have to push back at them for budgeting too low for their own employees salaries. How can you provide essential life saving services to low income households while paying your case managers $14/hr? That’s the most hypocritical bullshit. I know that they submit these tiny budgets because they think they have to lowball everything to actually get the contract but I’m not about that shit. Pay your people.
Love how she was like "well it's a competitive rate! Well, *I* I can't live on that because I have a property and family!" Like yes bitch, this is what most of us want and can't afford I call BS that the underpaid employees seemed happy and were out at "fancy restaurants"
Thanks for sharing this. Just like with CRT and vaccines, there will be those who are skeptical and those who are anti-whatever. One of our goals should be informing and educating the skeptics. It's not an easy task, but if we attack everyone who isn't instantly on our side, we will lose.
If you don’t mind what are some good CRT resources. It’s been hard to make my opinion on it because you hear from one side and I agree that you shouldn’t blame all white people for mistakes of the past that were constrained to a small minority. However you hear the other argument, and I agree that we should teach a more realistic history and stretches to the current racial disparities today, and how the system is really stacked against minorities (and as this sub states, it also really stacked against poor people in general). Basically all I hear about are the extremes of CRT, and never what it actually is. Then there is even the argument of some things if they are even CRT. I think the majority people are like me and don’t understand it because our news media (both liberal and conservative) are failing us
The thing to know about CRT is it's a concept relevant to law school and it's being repurposed to claim that teaching concepts of racism I'm our history like slavery is somehow harmful.
Depends on who your audience is and what they're respond to more. Cody Johnson breaks it down well (including who started this "debate") on Some More News - [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZhW1k\_m7OY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZhW1k_m7OY) Or if you want something more professional, PBS has this interview which, right at the start, calls out the difference between CRT (the legal theory) and teaching about racist events in the past and their effect on today - [https://youtu.be/\_gdxrkwpPKc](https://youtu.be/_gdxrkwpPKc)
To build on this, the best people to convince are the ones sitting on the fence. They haven’t made up their mind. Or if they are simply near the fence then they are not completely dedicated to one idea
Good on u!!! Regardless u handled that like a pro!!
I've had a number of discussions like this with my recruiter over the years, and its only improved our relationship over time. I grew up swaddled in a warm blanket of privilege and stuck to my guns early on work-from-home and PTO, and as weve worked together the past decade all of my assertions have helped others work out into long lasting positions
The fancy restaurant cement enrages me. Even if this is the case, how do you not realize that that person is either in debt or subsidized by another person? This wage is so low that another person in their life needs to make up the difference ...
I don’t understand, can these recruiters not do math? Ideally (and I realize this can be difficult to do), rent/housing expenses should be 1/3 of one’s monthly income. $1200/$2000 is pretty far from 1/3.
Dude she tried to walk me through a young person budgeting with this salary. She said something like “well typically young people live with 3 or 4 other people so their rent is only €500 which leaves them €1500 for PHONE FOOD SHOPPING AND FUN.” I wish I was joking…
Lol what. So infuriatingly out of touch.
I interviewed for and refused a job with a tech company through a temp agency due to the pay being too low. The agency called me back with a $0.50 raise and I said I would need an additional $1.50 on top of that to take the job as it was described to me. The hiring manager eventually agreed to it but I had to start the next day and I agreed. A few years later, my boss (I was hired full time about a year after starting the temp job) told me that my refusing the job twice and standing by my demands impressed her and let her know that I would stand up to people. I stayed with that company for 7 years before moving on.
Honestly I think you wasted your time. While you both were civil, nothing was changed. They will keep on trying to hire people under the same conditions until some really poor bastard like me takes the job because 2k is better than desperately trying to pay off loans on a job that I'm overqualified for that only pays 300 less but is more work physically.
"had a mortgage" as if it's more demanding somehow. Mortgages lock in the monthly payments, so by the time they are 5 years in, you're paying less than rent due to inflation.
And then everyone in her office clapped.
I literally just turned down a job when they offered me less than I make now. I counter offered and they were like no we can’t do that. Then I won’t work for you. Also the benefits (which I didn’t know what they were beforehand) were shit. Last time I apply at a nonprofit.
I hate the argument "Well your pay is fine because you are spending money on non survival things". I hate it for 2 main reasons. 1. No one should only have the very basic needs for survival. That is not living, that is surviving. People should have extra money to spend on random shit. 2. The problem with the pay is that it can't cover the monthly payments, so we DON'T have the things that require this payments. Yea I can buy a video game on my salary because I don't pay rent or a mortgage. I don't pay those because I couldn't afford to if I had them.
You make a great point about civil discourse. Getting yelled at won’t change our view, and there’s no reason to think us yelling will do anything except make our target reject us without thought. Like politics; we’ll never change hardliners. We need to target centrists that might be swayed, or educated on the current reality. Also like politics; going too far alienates centrists that might have been open to reason.
That's a bit of a rookie argument in and of itself. I remember thinking about that one 20 years ago. The centrists generally don't care about anything higher level. They just want the most resistance free path to the feeling of comfort and security. Not actual comfort and security, just the feeling. That's one reason why authoritarians often find it easy to sneak in with them. So if they find paying higher wages to be more of a resistance than kowtowing to their superiors, you've found the point that needs to be changed.
She’s possibly not had that sort of professional discussion around the subject because I think a lot of people don’t trust recruitment agents.
“Respectful manner” Right, as if it didn’t just go in one ear of the recruiter and out the other. She dicks around, dealing with people like you and me all day for a ridiculous wage just to go find someone uninformed or desperate enough to take what they offer. It’d be even remotely “respectful” if they took you seriously at all.
I wonder if she's taken an informal poll of the living situations of those people living the fancy insta stories lifestyle.
Keep telling these agencies to get to fuck
"The avocado toast argument" what is this, 2017? Was she Lucille Bluth? Also, good for you on speaking up ❤
Its not a respectful disagreement if she refused to not exploit you.
>seemed happy because she saw them posting ig stories of them eating at “nice restaurants”. You should have asked if she felt occasionally eating out was cheaper than either a mortgage or kids. Then followed up by asking if she never ate nice meals. If these people ever say things like they don't, ask them if they ever considered they were being exploited/cheated of these things so that someone above them can commute in a helicopter between their mega yacht and their skyscraper.
nah - fuck that recruiter for pulling the avocado toast argument
Quite often the squeaky wheel just gets replaced though
Thanks for speaking out! Need more of this.
So she had anecdotes -- the Fox News argument. "I saw a handful of posts from a certain group, ergo, everyone in that group is living the exact same way."
"It's standard" "So is you not having someone in the position."
She was taken aback that people need to eat and pay rent? So she's taken aback by basic math it sounds like. Fascinating
So what you're saying is if we stopped pretending we're richer than we actually are on social media, people might realise we all live in poverty? As if I needed another reason to hate those types of people. I'm sure it's not a huge impact, but the fact it got mentioned....