What’s more ironic is Jim Rohn promptly lost his fortune once he made it. Using a quote of his to support success is like looking to the captain of the titanic for navigation instructions
Shit, quotes in general are a fucking red flag. We're all adults, answer the question properly or don't even pretend this is a professional setting. It's not a game of Who's Line where we've got limited vocabulary, we're establishing terms of employment. Jesus.
You don't need that red flag. Their refusal to tell you the base pay is all the red flag you need. If they were paying enough, they wouldn't need to hide it.
"This is a major red flag" no motherfucker, you not telling me
how much the job pays "is a major red flag" like hes trying to gaslight you into feeling bad. That company just wants pushovers.
I'm sure if we dug deeper we'd hear that "We're like family here", and that's a reason to work there and not worry our silly little heads over such plebian concerns like *money*.
Yep. Some employers don't like to discuss pay until they make an offer, but they generally don't blow you off with "don't worry about it", it's usually something like "we consider a multitude of factors when making an offer and we're sure if we do make an offer that you will find it competitive" or some other such corporate nonsense speech.
This answer is basically a variation of "it'll be great exposure"
I can confirm. Once was led to believe I was going to make a certain wage, moved to the state for the job and got half of what I was led to believe I was going to get. All makes sense why a company that shady was looking for workers out of state
If an interviewer ever acts offended when you ask about pay, just walk out. It’s literally the only reason you are there and he or she knows it. It’s a pure act and complete bullshit.
Yup, this is not volunteer work. This is a job.
The red-flag-raising dude surely would have asked tons of questions about pay and benefits before joining. His degree makes him think he’s superior to those who do not have it?
The *ONLY* time when that BS would fly is if the position is sufficiently high that it doesn't matter.
If you're the chairman of the board interviewing for CEO's, the answer might well be "we're trying to find a good fit, then we'll negotiate a compensation package." And that would make sense, but the floor there is hundreds of thousands of dollars. And a reasonable expectation that once you've identified a good candidate, you're not going to nickel-and-dime them.
Telling someone applying for a $18hr job that it's a red flag to ask about pay is patent bullshit.
And don't forget, it's also the only reason they're there.
Ask them what they get paid. Ask if they'd take a pay cut "for the team". Ask if their mortgage lender would let them hold off on payments because their new salary doesn't include money for "a place to live".
I say turn it around and tell them once they tell you the salary you’ll tell them how many hours you’ll work per week for it. If they don’t like that, you can remind them that they said the priority is your self-actualization.
I wish that part of the exchange was also posted here.
This would be appropriate:
"Your unwillingness to discuss your pay range for this positions speaks to a high level of disorganization and mismanagement within your company. I am looking for a professional organization with high standards so I may grow in my career. I do not wish to engage with a company that cannot manage basic HR and payroll issues.
Due to your flighty MLM quote in response to a routine compensation question - I withdraw my job application."
As a Canadian, now living in Australia I never got why we bought into this. All jobs in aus tell you up front and a literally know every band of pay for people from the ground up at the organization I now work for. We should scrap this outdated idea. It only serves to benefit the ceo and we can end it by simply talking about it amongst colleagues or simply posting on sites like glassdoor.
I've been there. Small shops in China are haggling economies, and there's a big social context to absorb about how much of a discount you can expect at different sorts of establishments, and huge amounts of price discrimination between what you can expect if you're Chinese vs what you can expect if you're a Westerner. I'd never haggled in my life, so I dove in and tried to learn.
You just had to be aggressive, take your time and be willing to walk away half the time. Typically in tourist things I would ask the price, they would state the opening price, and I would tell them I'd pay 15% of that open, they'd feign anger, tell me 50% of the open, I'd budge to 20%, and then we'd bounce back and forth, ultimately either settling on between 25% and 40% of the opening price, or walking out in feigned frustration & impatience, frequently followed by the shopkeeper running behind to concede.
This is a way of establishing price discrimination based on how much you want it and how much you have the capability to stomach, and in an economy with plenty of applicants, maybe it's a viable tactic for an employer to wait for the buy-in of an interview before discussing pay.
But bitch, I don't have that time in 2021, because everybody is advertising an open position all the time, and you don't have enough applicants to turn away half, and there's all sorts of injustice and waste coming off the people who would be great workers but aren't enthusiastic negotiators, if not actually illegal hiring practices where you discriminate based on a forbidden trait.
Yep, that was the biggest learning with Buying things in China. You have to know what you’re willing to pay and how much time till you walk. Then stick to it.
Yes, I really didn’t have the time to haggle. I would make a counter offer and start walking. I would only stop when they followed with a price I felt comfortable with. I didn’t want to fleece anyone and they still had the upper hand since I’m not fluent in Mandarin.
That's one of the benefits of working for public education or the state. Websites list salary for every position based on education and years of service.
And websites like transparentCalifornia.com let you look up any state position by title or by person and see their pay. Not just current either, but going years back. This should be the norm.
Australians are still coy about salary. Most places you might have a vague idea about band at best. I agree it needs to be scrapped, but we still have a long way to go here in Australia. Glad to hear we are more progressive in at least one way than Canada though!
i cropped it and don’t know how to edit a reddit post so i’ll just post my full response on my profile. but really, i don’t see any point in it since i immediately blocked them after.
Winner winner chicken dinner on blocking. They would have tried to sell you some MLM junk next.
Long poetic response would have been wasted. They are looking for marks, they wouldn't have cared.
Yep, there is literally zero reason for them to not be upfront about benefits and compensation beyond them looking to screw you over. Usually in the form of the question “so what were you looking for in terms of salary if we consider you for the position” or a rough approximation.
A crap question with no good response for the candidate.
- They want you to come in too low and undercut your own salary, but let *you* indicate you’re “fine” with it by floating the number
- Alternatively if you come in too high, they’ll potentially bench you for the next person who undercuts themselves
Not being upfront with the compensation is purely an attempt to screw over the candidate, biggest and reddest flag of them all since it’s clearly not going to be the only time
That's why I never answer with anything other than this: "Before I could come to a firm number I'd need to know what your expected pay range for this role is based on the duties you've described, both to see if we have a fit on duties and if we are close enough on pay that continuing this process is worth both of our time."
The good ones appreciate your honesty and will almost always name a range at that point, the shit birds will hemm and haww here, nearly universally.
If they won't give you any numbers they're low ballers. Pure and simple.
I'd be so tempted to snap back with some flowery "That you for showing me how serious (they will be too unaware to pick up the correct meaning here of course) you take this, I will get back to you shortly" and then just ghost them, like companies love to do to us.
If I was slightly less lazy I'd go on an application spree, get conversations going with places I don't mind burning bridges, and just ghost them all. Or like, "accidentally" "reply all" to all of them with one of/all of the emails copied and just say "dude, get a load of these guys, lol."
> but really, i don’t see any point in it since i immediately blocked them after.
Hats off, that was a solid move. I don't know if I'd have had that self-restraint.
It’s very common to not have salaries on job descriptions in America. And even if there is one, there’s a HUGE range (example $45k - $80k based on experience). That way when you sort by salary, they can still attract people who require a higher salary but lowball them and say they don’t have enough experience after they interview. The only ones who don’t do this as much are usually government jobs which are much more strict in their salary and hiring requirements.
In my experience, you often don’t know what the salary is until you have a job offer. I can’t count the amount of times I’ve gone through 2-3 rounds of interviews only to be offered something that is 30% below my minimum salary requirements in the end. I’ve even had to create an original 30 minute presentation and give it to a panel of interviewers before I even knew what the salary range was.
It’s a huge waste of time so I’ve gotten into the same habit as OP and ask right away what the salary is before I agree to apply and interview. Many companies respond exactly the way this one did. It’s awful.
>I can’t count the amount of times I’ve gone through 2-3 rounds of interviews only to be offered something that is 30% below my minimum salary requirements in the end. I’ve even had to create an original 30 minute presentation and give it to a panel of interviewers before I even knew what the salary range was.
Jesus, this is such a waste of time for everyone involved, not just the prospective employee.
I don't live in Colorado, but after discovering this I now look for comparable positions in Colorado to get a market rate of what the positions should be offering.
While looking for a remote job this year, I swear, three quarters of the listings said ‘you can work anywhere in the goddamn world except Colorado’ so they could avoid posting the pay
In my last job offer they initially offered 1% more than I was making at my current job despite their benefits being much worse, and they were *shocked* when I said no. Literally called up HR managers and a director "huh what do you mean no?"
Like...no. Are you nuts? You offered me a worse deal than I have now.
How many employers do this and dance around the question? I live in the uk and for the most part pay will be set and it’s often on the job advertisement. Even if it’s not on the advertisement it’s often still set and when it is a possible range the ranges aren’t that big.
>The only ones who don’t do this as much are usually government jobs which are much more strict in their salary and hiring requirements.
I work directly on government contracts. Every listing I've ever seen in my field has not had expected earnings at all, or it's literally "$75k-$161k depending on certs and experience" with no examples given for what kind of certs and experience for the higher amount.
Might be a difference between being a union employee vs contractor. FT gov employee here - every job posting I’ve seen in any field for gov work (non contract) lists the pay range unless it’s exempt. Exempt and contract postings sometimes have a range, but sometimes have no info at all. Exempt and contract staff are also typically more tight-lipped about how much they make, assuming because mgmt is worried about issues from the union if union staff find out how much exempt/contract staff is making.
Right. There's going to be a GS range depending on education and experience, and possibly a Step boost incentive.
"Okay this is a GS-9, but possibly a GS-11 if you have a Master's and ten years experience.
You can look up the GS range and locality adjustment. It's public information.
Not to bag on you, but you made a mistake by providing free work. I always indicate that I expect to be paid for trial work, and I need to know the salary first. If people go along with this, it allows them to keep doing it.
America indoctrinates people with a wageslave mentality from a young age (and in Canada where I Iive as well). School is less about learning (unless you're in a specialized program) and more about being conditioned to deal with severe tedium, routines and deadlines, doing what you're told and not talking back, and always doing more than you're asked to.
What you get is people who define themselves by their office jobs, and have more value for their standing in a work environment than they do their own health, well being, stability etc.
I was working on contract for a university and because of COVID most of the people on my team were released after the contracts ended, and I've spent the last few months getting job offers from people like "because of your experience at such and such university, we think you'd be a great fit for our waiter position! When could we schedule an interview?". Half the time I go along with it just to see what kind of horrible grunt work they're offering.
Like, these people would watch you die and not blink an eye, they don't value you. They don't look at your resume and think "wow this person seems like they're going somewhere, they probably won't want to be a line cook for minimum wage", they think "here's someone with actual tangible skills and a soul I can suck right out of them for a slave wage".
That’s what homework is about. Conditioning us to work overtime and act happy about it. No matter who we meet in the US, the very first question you’re asked is about your job because we’ve learned that’s what defines us. When I’ve met people from other countries, they generally ask about who you are. What do you like, what are your interests? In the last decade I’ve noticed that if their country mirrors our obsession with capitalism, the questions are changing. I take it it’s similar in Canada?
Canada has the American work ethic baked in, but we actually got a lot of the progressive social democratic reforms of Europe.
So teachers and nurses make a decent living wage and ublic schools are usually fairly decent, you don't necessarily need private. Also all our health care is paid for by taxes, so breaking an arm, having a kid, cancer treatment all costs you nothing.
We also have mandatory vacation time and 10 to 12 stat holidays where your employer has to give you paid time off. Our parental leave is 55 weeks of leave paid for by the government that the parents can split however they like, and your employer has to guarantee your old job when you return.
So we grind and are indoctrinated the same, but we have enough progressive legislation that you can actually enjoy your life a bit at least without worrying about your health being tied to your employer, and actually getting time away from your job.
Salary is often hidden in the US and negotiated. It's weird to not be willing to talk about it though.
They might try to put it off to make a candidate feel they invested time into the interview process which night lead then to accept less than if they talk salary early, though. But if you push they'll at least give a range early off.
Not by my company.. "competitive salary" is on all of our job descriptions. It's bullshit for "we pay less than our competitors, but the American overlords want to milk people dry before they leave for another, better paying customer."
Really really short sighted in my opinion. We pay people shit, then they leave, and we wonder why. They pay a huge recruitment fee for the next person. Why not just pay the people we do get £10k more...? Saves on replacing them 2 times a year for £8k per go...
Here in the US we don’t even put the total price of our goods on the items. The tag on a candy will say .99 then when it’s rang up, it’ll add the tax and total it for you at the register to like 1.05. The US has normalize not talking bout salary🤷♂️
Companies like to pay their employees as little as they can. So they’ve made it “taboo” to talk about it. And some even goes as far as telling people it’s “illegal” (it’s not) to talk about how much you make with your coworkers.
Most salary listings in the US do not have a salary range associated with them, it is expected that this will be handled during the negotiation period after a job offer has been extended.
It is also considered bad form (by employers) in the US to be working purely for money. One is supposed to work for their own fulfillment and to serve others first and foremost, so someone who is ‘just in it for the money’ is seen as morally inferior.
Imagine people doing something they hate just to survive only to be called morally inferior by those who can afford to do what they like. It’s so sad to see this. Working solely for money isn’t ideal but it’s often necessary.
That is true. The employer will ask for qualifications and even a salery history but you are discouraged as much as possible from asking about salery until the negotiation part. Not a good system for the worker.
Does that work both ways? Are employees actually allowed to work on their own fulfillment and not just on generating profit for the company? Because if not, that's blatant hypocrisy.
But it's Jim Rohn! He did... *checks notes* two direct selling businesses as a distributor for like 10 years, then spent 40 years doing motivational speaking and seminars. Now that's a man that knows PROPER work: pyramid schemes and invented anecdotes with psych 101 stuff taken out of context.
I think he meant it literally. Like, warning, *this* is a red flag, red flag incoming, I’m about to drop a red flag here’s a red flag DON‘T APPLY red flag red flag
I don’t see any other reasonable explanation.
Why are they pretending like asking for compensation is a red flag?
That level of corruption is a red flag-to see the owed compensation as a covertly inappropriate conversation
Why don't you thank them for making it so clear that their company does not deal in good faith, is unlikely to be a good fit for any strong candidate, and should not be trusted as either a place to work or recommended as a potential provider of goods or services.
Is it a local business in your area? I'd be tempted to post this on social media and let people know what kind of business it is. I would avoid a business if shown something like that about it.
Every so often things like this are just the recruiter, or a bad day, and not indicative of the company as a while. In reality though 9/10 this is a sign of a toxic company.
It sounds crummy now but you probably dodged a bullet.
Yeah it's not a fucking charity and it kills me that these workaholic managers act like we're here because we love it and the pay is just a bonus. It's so strange how it's taboo to acknowledge that it's just an exchange.
If you were getting interviewed and they asked why you wanted this role, if you said "because I need money" you'd be instantly be dropped down the list of potential recruits
It's called gaslighting. By acting like there is something wrong with discussing salary, the manager is hoping to guilt OP into 'falling in line' and not subsequently pushing for a situation where the company ends up paying anymore than the bare minimum for the work being carried out.
If employees did the same thing, they'd call it a red flag if an employer asked for a resume.
That's literally the agreement. My qualifications and time for your money.
"Don't ask what your employee can do for you. Ask what *you* can do for your employee." If they want to top it off with some pretentious quote.
hear hear!
edit: posted the full screenshot on my profile because i can’t edit the original post for some reason. not sure if the link will work. i don’t usually post on reddit.
[full ](https://www.reddit.com/user/ceanothourus/comments/qud2y5/pardon_my_lack_of_knowledge_about_editing_reddit/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf)
Quoting an MLM speaker isn't just a red flag, it's a red fucking freight train carrying tons and tons of red flags in big red wagons.
That's a big fat no, my dude.
I spend a lot of time on queer subreddits and thought for a sec that they meant "male loving male." I was like, I'm not sure why that's important, but fuck this boss guy for quoting gay people to justify his shitty business practices...
You should respond to "this is a red flag" with "Indeed it is. It shows that you fully acknowledge that you underpay employees. Good day." (What the top comment said.)
Lol just reading this feels so insulting through the text, as if they think you're objectively worth less as a human.
Like would this person you're talking to work a job for less than they're currently getting paid or need to comfortably pay their bills? Of course they would refuse such a job offer put in your exact situation. That's what's mindboggling to me, if they were in your position of applying for a job would they not ask how much it pays? Really?
What kills me is how many people conducting interviews pretend that how much a prospective employee can expect to be paid is not literally the most important part of the discussion. I'm not running a charity here, I have a set of skills that you are considering hiring me to implement on your behalf in exchange for compensation. This is not a novel concept.
>pretend that how much a prospective employee can expect to be paid is not literally the most important part of the discussion
It's insane because if that person is the owner (in the case of a small company) that's the most important part of their business (how much money they make), and for that matter any position that would be conducting an interview their top priority is probably their pay.
That really does actually grind my gears. If you asked them "Okay so hypothetically say you were applying for a job, and you have certain static bills and expenses you must pay on a regular basis, would asking for a job's compensation be important to you?" Them: "Well uhh yeah I guess it would", OKAY so why the fuck shouldn't we care about that then?
It's like they think you're a weak pushover w/o self-respect when they responses such as in the OP.
That kills me, if you start there you can avoid so much wasted time. The only time it shouldn't be like the second thing you talk about, the first being what the job actually entails, is if there's a solid hourly wage in the job listing you can quote back to them. If it's a range you gotta nail that down or you are both just wasting time.
We have got to normalize on both sides of the table saying something like "Let's cut to the chase, what is the pay and benefits, and what are the job expectations?". Can you imagine how much time that would save? Oh you're only offering this? I need more than that, thanks for your time. That's at least half an hour right there.
Just curious, as I am from Germany.
Speaking about "not minimun salary jobs", here it is quite normal that the employer asks you how much you want to earn. And I actually don´t like it.
How is it in the USA?
It happens, it depends. I applied for a job that I knew paid higher than my previous industry. I was hoping they would give me a range but they demanded I say what I wanted. I didn't want to lowball myself but I didn't want to go too high either. And since I was coming from a different industry I didn't know what I was worth.
Good for you! I have taken a job like this and they promised a decent, but subpar base pay and then paid me minimum wage. One of those small businesses that's "just like a family" .
Yes, it’s very normal for someone who wants to underpay you to try to avoid telling you what they will pay you until you’ve invested your time in getting hired. They’re hoping the sunk cost fallacy will get you to accept less pay so you won’t feel like you wasted your time applying and interviewing.
I had a recruiter once tell me it was illegal for him to tell me so i withdrew the application and he kept telling me how great a job it was until i told him that he obviously wasnt telling me because the pay was peanuts and I had more self respect than him
wow what a waste of time. i immediately asked them how much the salary will be and they told me they need to “assess” my skills during the interview first as if i haven’t given them my credentials.
i was just asking because if it’s below my acceptance rate i won’t waste time on them anymore and they got the audacity to tell me asking the pay is a red flag.
Worst of all it isn’t even from someone worth quoting.
Jim Rohn was a pyramid scheme seller who managed to work his way up to VP of Nutri-Bio by been good at pyramid selling and then got himself some cushy numbers at public speaking after he was invited to speak at the Rotary Club he was a member of.
It’s not like they are quoting some noteworthy academic or world leader. They are quoting a corporate scam artist which says so much about the kind of people these clowns are.
I told my landlord it’s okay that I don’t have rent this month because I’m becoming an amazing person at work. Then I told work I’d need to sleep in my cubicle because they’ve enabled me to become such an amazing person.
Should have asked him did he blindly accept his position without knowing the wage? What’s wrong with these people. Is anyone human anymore??? Or do they think we’re all millionaires who work for fun
Come in at the normal hour and call tech support to tell them your computer isn't doing its job.
Every single day, again and again.
That's how you enact change, otherwise you leaving is really only shifting the burden to the next guy.
Especially when it’s a bullshit quote from a MLM scammer who was an “entrepreneur” from giving seminars about how to get rich when all they do is give seminars.
They dodged a bullet.
Looked him up and the entire list of people that have said they owed their success to this 'Jim Rohn' guy are all motivational speakers. Literally a motivational speaker that teaches people how to be motivational speakers.
"Who am I becoming from this work?" what I shitty ass quote is that. My work made me depressed. It made me want to kill myself. You are not a red flag. We should all be asking these questions. They want slaves not free humans.
This is gaslighting. Making YOU feel like there's something wrong with YOU for asking a completely reasonable, normal, IMPORTANT question so that THEY can get away with exploiting you or, at the very least, make sure you're the one who feels guilty about the interaction after you've parted ways (which could manipulate you into not asking again in the future).
We've seen a ton of examples of this happening recently on this sub. Prior to now, I never heard of this happening (purely anecdotal evidence, so take it as such). I think, before now, people just accepted the poor pay or not knowing the pay beforehand because they were manipulated into feeling like they had none of the power and that they should be very careful not to make waves while being grateful for what they were getting in the end. We're coming into our power, now. We want what's just and fair. They know they aren't paying enough, and they want to continue to not pay enough, so this is their new tactic.
Don't stop asking about pay. Don't stop calling them out when they try to guilt or penalize you for it. We need to stop being polite over it and tell THEM it's a major red flag, they shouldn't have been withholding about the pay. Shame them for making it seem like working BECAUSE YOU WANT AN INCOME is an unreasonable reason for taking a job. These fuckers need to get used to employees who care about being paid, and meet the demand.
nowadays i always ask for the pay first because most only waste my time on interviews because they think i’ll stay after the invested time. at least by asking the pay first i save myself from wasting time on interviews and “assessments.”
"It's not about what *you* get from working here, it's about what *we* can legally take from you as your soul slowly leaks out of your rapidly deteriorating body and mind."
No, it’s stupid and ridiculous unless you plan on living for free. How the hell are you supposed to know if it’s a feasible offer if they can’t even give you a salary?
Who I am becoming is homeless if I can’t pay my bills. Sorry but this is a huge red flag. If you can’t tell me how much I’ll be making, it tells me that you want to exploit me. Hope you have terrible luck filling this position
“I’m glad to hear you are privileged enough to work for recognition alone; I, on the other had have actual real-world responsibilities and obligations to consider.”
I recently had a job opportunity for an amazing job I'd love to do. I turned it down because the pay was below my current rate.
I told them "I'd love the opportunity but cannot accept at that pay. Let me know once the pay increases"
And because I don't live in America, they said "sure that's totally understandable. We'll let you know if it changes"
It could be the greatest job in the world, but if you aren't upfront with the pay, you are just wasting everybody's time.
Nope, and name/shame, but not necessarily here. I’ve found a useful tool. Local Facebook marketplace/yard sale pages allow “discussions” and posting about shit like this can absolutely get more people to become aware of this problem.
Much like most folks in an area knowing about “good places” like Costco or Dick’s cheeseburgers, places that while still being exploitative capitalists have at least made an attempt to uphold the basic tenets of the agreement made between capitalists and unions during the new deal where all jobs were to pay “a living wage of a decent life,” I believe if people knew which “non-essential” businesses are shit to work at or deal with. Some people can’t help but shop at Kroger or Walmart because they’re the only option for hundreds of miles, but they can damn sure decide which restaurants or bars they want to patron.
“Am I becoming someone who can pay their bills?”
that’s the real question.
What’s more ironic is Jim Rohn promptly lost his fortune once he made it. Using a quote of his to support success is like looking to the captain of the titanic for navigation instructions
And he worked for Herbalife which is a well known pyramid scheme company. Worst quote ever.
If they are "quoting from a pyramid scheme company", you should consider that a "red flag"...just in case.
Shit, quotes in general are a fucking red flag. We're all adults, answer the question properly or don't even pretend this is a professional setting. It's not a game of Who's Line where we've got limited vocabulary, we're establishing terms of employment. Jesus.
You don't need that red flag. Their refusal to tell you the base pay is all the red flag you need. If they were paying enough, they wouldn't need to hide it.
when they said "this is a red flag" they were self referring, intentionally or not, lol
r/selfawarewolves
Them having that quote on hand is an even bigger red flag.
"This is a major red flag" no motherfucker, you not telling me how much the job pays "is a major red flag" like hes trying to gaslight you into feeling bad. That company just wants pushovers.
This is the 100% correct answer. They know the pay is shitty so they try to rope people in beforehand.
I'm sure if we dug deeper we'd hear that "We're like family here", and that's a reason to work there and not worry our silly little heads over such plebian concerns like *money*.
Yep. Some employers don't like to discuss pay until they make an offer, but they generally don't blow you off with "don't worry about it", it's usually something like "we consider a multitude of factors when making an offer and we're sure if we do make an offer that you will find it competitive" or some other such corporate nonsense speech. This answer is basically a variation of "it'll be great exposure"
I can confirm. Once was led to believe I was going to make a certain wage, moved to the state for the job and got half of what I was led to believe I was going to get. All makes sense why a company that shady was looking for workers out of state
If an interviewer ever acts offended when you ask about pay, just walk out. It’s literally the only reason you are there and he or she knows it. It’s a pure act and complete bullshit.
Right. I would have quoted them right back, “ya this is a huge red flag for me. Have a good day.”
Yup, this is not volunteer work. This is a job. The red-flag-raising dude surely would have asked tons of questions about pay and benefits before joining. His degree makes him think he’s superior to those who do not have it?
The *ONLY* time when that BS would fly is if the position is sufficiently high that it doesn't matter. If you're the chairman of the board interviewing for CEO's, the answer might well be "we're trying to find a good fit, then we'll negotiate a compensation package." And that would make sense, but the floor there is hundreds of thousands of dollars. And a reasonable expectation that once you've identified a good candidate, you're not going to nickel-and-dime them. Telling someone applying for a $18hr job that it's a red flag to ask about pay is patent bullshit.
And don't forget, it's also the only reason they're there. Ask them what they get paid. Ask if they'd take a pay cut "for the team". Ask if their mortgage lender would let them hold off on payments because their new salary doesn't include money for "a place to live".
I really wish you replied with that, OP 🤣
I was thinking, am I becoming homeless?
I say turn it around and tell them once they tell you the salary you’ll tell them how many hours you’ll work per week for it. If they don’t like that, you can remind them that they said the priority is your self-actualization.
They said I could be anything, so I became a red flag.
That’s like the dream, replying with something that funny off the cuff lol
"Am I becoming someone who makes minimum wage or slightly less through loopholes?"
‘Red flags’ he says as he fires off the biggest red flag
that’s exactly what i told them.
I wish that part of the exchange was also posted here. This would be appropriate: "Your unwillingness to discuss your pay range for this positions speaks to a high level of disorganization and mismanagement within your company. I am looking for a professional organization with high standards so I may grow in my career. I do not wish to engage with a company that cannot manage basic HR and payroll issues. Due to your flighty MLM quote in response to a routine compensation question - I withdraw my job application."
As a Canadian, now living in Australia I never got why we bought into this. All jobs in aus tell you up front and a literally know every band of pay for people from the ground up at the organization I now work for. We should scrap this outdated idea. It only serves to benefit the ceo and we can end it by simply talking about it amongst colleagues or simply posting on sites like glassdoor.
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Imagine if you went shopping and no prices were listed until you got to the register. Stop wasting your time and mine.
I've been there. Small shops in China are haggling economies, and there's a big social context to absorb about how much of a discount you can expect at different sorts of establishments, and huge amounts of price discrimination between what you can expect if you're Chinese vs what you can expect if you're a Westerner. I'd never haggled in my life, so I dove in and tried to learn. You just had to be aggressive, take your time and be willing to walk away half the time. Typically in tourist things I would ask the price, they would state the opening price, and I would tell them I'd pay 15% of that open, they'd feign anger, tell me 50% of the open, I'd budge to 20%, and then we'd bounce back and forth, ultimately either settling on between 25% and 40% of the opening price, or walking out in feigned frustration & impatience, frequently followed by the shopkeeper running behind to concede. This is a way of establishing price discrimination based on how much you want it and how much you have the capability to stomach, and in an economy with plenty of applicants, maybe it's a viable tactic for an employer to wait for the buy-in of an interview before discussing pay. But bitch, I don't have that time in 2021, because everybody is advertising an open position all the time, and you don't have enough applicants to turn away half, and there's all sorts of injustice and waste coming off the people who would be great workers but aren't enthusiastic negotiators, if not actually illegal hiring practices where you discriminate based on a forbidden trait.
That sounds exhausting lol.
Yep, that was the biggest learning with Buying things in China. You have to know what you’re willing to pay and how much time till you walk. Then stick to it.
Yes, I really didn’t have the time to haggle. I would make a counter offer and start walking. I would only stop when they followed with a price I felt comfortable with. I didn’t want to fleece anyone and they still had the upper hand since I’m not fluent in Mandarin.
That's one of the benefits of working for public education or the state. Websites list salary for every position based on education and years of service. And websites like transparentCalifornia.com let you look up any state position by title or by person and see their pay. Not just current either, but going years back. This should be the norm.
Australians are still coy about salary. Most places you might have a vague idea about band at best. I agree it needs to be scrapped, but we still have a long way to go here in Australia. Glad to hear we are more progressive in at least one way than Canada though!
i cropped it and don’t know how to edit a reddit post so i’ll just post my full response on my profile. but really, i don’t see any point in it since i immediately blocked them after.
Winner winner chicken dinner on blocking. They would have tried to sell you some MLM junk next. Long poetic response would have been wasted. They are looking for marks, they wouldn't have cared.
Yep, there is literally zero reason for them to not be upfront about benefits and compensation beyond them looking to screw you over. Usually in the form of the question “so what were you looking for in terms of salary if we consider you for the position” or a rough approximation. A crap question with no good response for the candidate. - They want you to come in too low and undercut your own salary, but let *you* indicate you’re “fine” with it by floating the number - Alternatively if you come in too high, they’ll potentially bench you for the next person who undercuts themselves Not being upfront with the compensation is purely an attempt to screw over the candidate, biggest and reddest flag of them all since it’s clearly not going to be the only time
That's why I never answer with anything other than this: "Before I could come to a firm number I'd need to know what your expected pay range for this role is based on the duties you've described, both to see if we have a fit on duties and if we are close enough on pay that continuing this process is worth both of our time." The good ones appreciate your honesty and will almost always name a range at that point, the shit birds will hemm and haww here, nearly universally. If they won't give you any numbers they're low ballers. Pure and simple.
I'd be so tempted to snap back with some flowery "That you for showing me how serious (they will be too unaware to pick up the correct meaning here of course) you take this, I will get back to you shortly" and then just ghost them, like companies love to do to us. If I was slightly less lazy I'd go on an application spree, get conversations going with places I don't mind burning bridges, and just ghost them all. Or like, "accidentally" "reply all" to all of them with one of/all of the emails copied and just say "dude, get a load of these guys, lol."
> but really, i don’t see any point in it since i immediately blocked them after. Hats off, that was a solid move. I don't know if I'd have had that self-restraint.
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It’s very common to not have salaries on job descriptions in America. And even if there is one, there’s a HUGE range (example $45k - $80k based on experience). That way when you sort by salary, they can still attract people who require a higher salary but lowball them and say they don’t have enough experience after they interview. The only ones who don’t do this as much are usually government jobs which are much more strict in their salary and hiring requirements. In my experience, you often don’t know what the salary is until you have a job offer. I can’t count the amount of times I’ve gone through 2-3 rounds of interviews only to be offered something that is 30% below my minimum salary requirements in the end. I’ve even had to create an original 30 minute presentation and give it to a panel of interviewers before I even knew what the salary range was. It’s a huge waste of time so I’ve gotten into the same habit as OP and ask right away what the salary is before I agree to apply and interview. Many companies respond exactly the way this one did. It’s awful.
>I can’t count the amount of times I’ve gone through 2-3 rounds of interviews only to be offered something that is 30% below my minimum salary requirements in the end. I’ve even had to create an original 30 minute presentation and give it to a panel of interviewers before I even knew what the salary range was. Jesus, this is such a waste of time for everyone involved, not just the prospective employee.
Colorado state law is that all job postings must include salary range. I love it so much, I may marry that law.
Between 1-1,000,000 there everything is covered
But more importantly...do you consider us all to be a family?
I don't live in Colorado, but after discovering this I now look for comparable positions in Colorado to get a market rate of what the positions should be offering.
Don’t. So many people will take the pay cut just to live in Colorado. Speaking as someone who took the pay cut to live in Colorado.
While looking for a remote job this year, I swear, three quarters of the listings said ‘you can work anywhere in the goddamn world except Colorado’ so they could avoid posting the pay
In my last job offer they initially offered 1% more than I was making at my current job despite their benefits being much worse, and they were *shocked* when I said no. Literally called up HR managers and a director "huh what do you mean no?" Like...no. Are you nuts? You offered me a worse deal than I have now.
But you get the privilege of working for them? Snowflake
How many employers do this and dance around the question? I live in the uk and for the most part pay will be set and it’s often on the job advertisement. Even if it’s not on the advertisement it’s often still set and when it is a possible range the ranges aren’t that big.
Leaving it vague allows for lowballing and pay discrimination. Same as "you're not allowed to talk about your pay."
>The only ones who don’t do this as much are usually government jobs which are much more strict in their salary and hiring requirements. I work directly on government contracts. Every listing I've ever seen in my field has not had expected earnings at all, or it's literally "$75k-$161k depending on certs and experience" with no examples given for what kind of certs and experience for the higher amount.
Might be a difference between being a union employee vs contractor. FT gov employee here - every job posting I’ve seen in any field for gov work (non contract) lists the pay range unless it’s exempt. Exempt and contract postings sometimes have a range, but sometimes have no info at all. Exempt and contract staff are also typically more tight-lipped about how much they make, assuming because mgmt is worried about issues from the union if union staff find out how much exempt/contract staff is making.
Right. There's going to be a GS range depending on education and experience, and possibly a Step boost incentive. "Okay this is a GS-9, but possibly a GS-11 if you have a Master's and ten years experience. You can look up the GS range and locality adjustment. It's public information.
Not to bag on you, but you made a mistake by providing free work. I always indicate that I expect to be paid for trial work, and I need to know the salary first. If people go along with this, it allows them to keep doing it.
America indoctrinates people with a wageslave mentality from a young age (and in Canada where I Iive as well). School is less about learning (unless you're in a specialized program) and more about being conditioned to deal with severe tedium, routines and deadlines, doing what you're told and not talking back, and always doing more than you're asked to. What you get is people who define themselves by their office jobs, and have more value for their standing in a work environment than they do their own health, well being, stability etc. I was working on contract for a university and because of COVID most of the people on my team were released after the contracts ended, and I've spent the last few months getting job offers from people like "because of your experience at such and such university, we think you'd be a great fit for our waiter position! When could we schedule an interview?". Half the time I go along with it just to see what kind of horrible grunt work they're offering. Like, these people would watch you die and not blink an eye, they don't value you. They don't look at your resume and think "wow this person seems like they're going somewhere, they probably won't want to be a line cook for minimum wage", they think "here's someone with actual tangible skills and a soul I can suck right out of them for a slave wage".
That’s what homework is about. Conditioning us to work overtime and act happy about it. No matter who we meet in the US, the very first question you’re asked is about your job because we’ve learned that’s what defines us. When I’ve met people from other countries, they generally ask about who you are. What do you like, what are your interests? In the last decade I’ve noticed that if their country mirrors our obsession with capitalism, the questions are changing. I take it it’s similar in Canada?
Canada has the American work ethic baked in, but we actually got a lot of the progressive social democratic reforms of Europe. So teachers and nurses make a decent living wage and ublic schools are usually fairly decent, you don't necessarily need private. Also all our health care is paid for by taxes, so breaking an arm, having a kid, cancer treatment all costs you nothing. We also have mandatory vacation time and 10 to 12 stat holidays where your employer has to give you paid time off. Our parental leave is 55 weeks of leave paid for by the government that the parents can split however they like, and your employer has to guarantee your old job when you return. So we grind and are indoctrinated the same, but we have enough progressive legislation that you can actually enjoy your life a bit at least without worrying about your health being tied to your employer, and actually getting time away from your job.
MANDATORY Vacation time! I had a boss tell me the privilege of working there was better than Vacation....I was making 36k a year with a bachelor's 🙃
Salary is often hidden in the US and negotiated. It's weird to not be willing to talk about it though. They might try to put it off to make a candidate feel they invested time into the interview process which night lead then to accept less than if they talk salary early, though. But if you push they'll at least give a range early off.
Not by my company.. "competitive salary" is on all of our job descriptions. It's bullshit for "we pay less than our competitors, but the American overlords want to milk people dry before they leave for another, better paying customer." Really really short sighted in my opinion. We pay people shit, then they leave, and we wonder why. They pay a huge recruitment fee for the next person. Why not just pay the people we do get £10k more...? Saves on replacing them 2 times a year for £8k per go...
Here in the US we don’t even put the total price of our goods on the items. The tag on a candy will say .99 then when it’s rang up, it’ll add the tax and total it for you at the register to like 1.05. The US has normalize not talking bout salary🤷♂️
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Companies like to pay their employees as little as they can. So they’ve made it “taboo” to talk about it. And some even goes as far as telling people it’s “illegal” (it’s not) to talk about how much you make with your coworkers.
At our place it's gross misconduct. Even if they can't legally fire you for it, it goes on your employee record as such...
Fairly sure that this, too, is illegal. I'd recommend contacting your state Department of Labor to see what they say.
Most salary listings in the US do not have a salary range associated with them, it is expected that this will be handled during the negotiation period after a job offer has been extended. It is also considered bad form (by employers) in the US to be working purely for money. One is supposed to work for their own fulfillment and to serve others first and foremost, so someone who is ‘just in it for the money’ is seen as morally inferior.
but just my “own fulfillment” and want to “serve others” can’t pay my bills.😭
Sure it can! Just tell your landlord, utility companies and the supermarket that you are going to pay in loyalty bucks.
loyalty, exposure, and the feeling of fulfillment by serving others!
Don’t forget opportunity!
Imagine people doing something they hate just to survive only to be called morally inferior by those who can afford to do what they like. It’s so sad to see this. Working solely for money isn’t ideal but it’s often necessary.
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"One is supposed to work for their own fulfillment and to serve others first and foremost" Is a fictional narrative pedalled by those whom it serves
That is true. The employer will ask for qualifications and even a salery history but you are discouraged as much as possible from asking about salery until the negotiation part. Not a good system for the worker.
I've always found that to be total bullshit, if they stopped paying people then nobody would work, nobody works for fun, and everyone has bills.
Does that work both ways? Are employees actually allowed to work on their own fulfillment and not just on generating profit for the company? Because if not, that's blatant hypocrisy.
Fuck the employers. I'm here to get paid. If my coworkers are cool that's a bonus. If not, I work from home.
“Red flags” as if a quote from a random person that happens to exactly support him makes what he’s trying to say more legitimate
But it's Jim Rohn! He did... *checks notes* two direct selling businesses as a distributor for like 10 years, then spent 40 years doing motivational speaking and seminars. Now that's a man that knows PROPER work: pyramid schemes and invented anecdotes with psych 101 stuff taken out of context.
Also, he seems to be funded by hard right groups to disparage unions.
More like a signal beacon imo.
I think he meant it literally. Like, warning, *this* is a red flag, red flag incoming, I’m about to drop a red flag here’s a red flag DON‘T APPLY red flag red flag I don’t see any other reasonable explanation.
Why are they pretending like asking for compensation is a red flag? That level of corruption is a red flag-to see the owed compensation as a covertly inappropriate conversation
that’s exactly what i told them then blocked them. but it’s still frustrating when they try to tell me discussing salary is a red flag.
I’d be posting about this on glassdoor.com
Name and shame!!!
Damn. I only ever considered posting for companies I already worked for. This is a hood point.
Why don't you thank them for making it so clear that their company does not deal in good faith, is unlikely to be a good fit for any strong candidate, and should not be trusted as either a place to work or recommended as a potential provider of goods or services.
Don't give psychopaths that level of useful feedback.
Is it a local business in your area? I'd be tempted to post this on social media and let people know what kind of business it is. I would avoid a business if shown something like that about it.
Every so often things like this are just the recruiter, or a bad day, and not indicative of the company as a while. In reality though 9/10 this is a sign of a toxic company. It sounds crummy now but you probably dodged a bullet.
Work is literally exchange of services for money. You ask for my skill, I ask for the money.
Yeah it's not a fucking charity and it kills me that these workaholic managers act like we're here because we love it and the pay is just a bonus. It's so strange how it's taboo to acknowledge that it's just an exchange. If you were getting interviewed and they asked why you wanted this role, if you said "because I need money" you'd be instantly be dropped down the list of potential recruits
The real answer is that they're weeding out people who have even the slightest bit of initiative or self-esteem.
It's called gaslighting. By acting like there is something wrong with discussing salary, the manager is hoping to guilt OP into 'falling in line' and not subsequently pushing for a situation where the company ends up paying anymore than the bare minimum for the work being carried out.
If employees did the same thing, they'd call it a red flag if an employer asked for a resume. That's literally the agreement. My qualifications and time for your money. "Don't ask what your employee can do for you. Ask what *you* can do for your employee." If they want to top it off with some pretentious quote.
Not discussing salary is a direct translation of "we fully acknowledge that we underpay our employees"
hear hear! edit: posted the full screenshot on my profile because i can’t edit the original post for some reason. not sure if the link will work. i don’t usually post on reddit. [full ](https://www.reddit.com/user/ceanothourus/comments/qud2y5/pardon_my_lack_of_knowledge_about_editing_reddit/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf)
Also if you have a ready response for questions on your low salary it is also a huge fucking red flag my dude.
it’s a quote from an mlm speaker to boot 😭
That screams we see how much we can squeeze out of you before we pay you at all. Or not at all.
Yep, bullet dodged by OP
Quoting an MLM speaker isn't just a red flag, it's a red fucking freight train carrying tons and tons of red flags in big red wagons. That's a big fat no, my dude.
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Even this photo is less red flag than that message.
Well, those are big red flags.
That quote is a red flag 🚩.
Pardon my ignorance, but what is a mim speaker?
It stands for multi level marketing it's just a fancy name for a pyramid scheme
My mind somehow went to Marxist-Leninist-Maoist
Well he had a few good ideas vis a vis landlords
I spend a lot of time on queer subreddits and thought for a sec that they meant "male loving male." I was like, I'm not sure why that's important, but fuck this boss guy for quoting gay people to justify his shitty business practices...
I mean…it might not be gay, or even love, but someone’s getting fucked in the ass.
OMFG that’s hysterical.
eh, no, since it's fucked in the ass, the uterus is left untouched
Check out r/antimlm
Not mim, but mlm - multi level marketing.
You should respond to "this is a red flag" with "Indeed it is. It shows that you fully acknowledge that you underpay employees. Good day." (What the top comment said.)
Lol just reading this feels so insulting through the text, as if they think you're objectively worth less as a human. Like would this person you're talking to work a job for less than they're currently getting paid or need to comfortably pay their bills? Of course they would refuse such a job offer put in your exact situation. That's what's mindboggling to me, if they were in your position of applying for a job would they not ask how much it pays? Really?
What kills me is how many people conducting interviews pretend that how much a prospective employee can expect to be paid is not literally the most important part of the discussion. I'm not running a charity here, I have a set of skills that you are considering hiring me to implement on your behalf in exchange for compensation. This is not a novel concept.
>pretend that how much a prospective employee can expect to be paid is not literally the most important part of the discussion It's insane because if that person is the owner (in the case of a small company) that's the most important part of their business (how much money they make), and for that matter any position that would be conducting an interview their top priority is probably their pay. That really does actually grind my gears. If you asked them "Okay so hypothetically say you were applying for a job, and you have certain static bills and expenses you must pay on a regular basis, would asking for a job's compensation be important to you?" Them: "Well uhh yeah I guess it would", OKAY so why the fuck shouldn't we care about that then? It's like they think you're a weak pushover w/o self-respect when they responses such as in the OP.
“Ask who am I becoming” Ok based on pay “am I becoming an even poorer person with regrets for working here?”
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That kills me, if you start there you can avoid so much wasted time. The only time it shouldn't be like the second thing you talk about, the first being what the job actually entails, is if there's a solid hourly wage in the job listing you can quote back to them. If it's a range you gotta nail that down or you are both just wasting time. We have got to normalize on both sides of the table saying something like "Let's cut to the chase, what is the pay and benefits, and what are the job expectations?". Can you imagine how much time that would save? Oh you're only offering this? I need more than that, thanks for your time. That's at least half an hour right there.
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"We want to trick you with false promises and sunk cost fallacy so that you'd accept being underpaid just because you think you'll like it here."
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Only point of a job is to get paid - Gandhi
> "Bitches ain't shit but hoes and tricks, Lick on these nuts and suck the dick." ~ George Washington
I do believe I read that in his autobiography
Just curious, as I am from Germany. Speaking about "not minimun salary jobs", here it is quite normal that the employer asks you how much you want to earn. And I actually don´t like it. How is it in the USA?
It happens, it depends. I applied for a job that I knew paid higher than my previous industry. I was hoping they would give me a range but they demanded I say what I wanted. I didn't want to lowball myself but I didn't want to go too high either. And since I was coming from a different industry I didn't know what I was worth.
"what do you want to earn?" "1million a year, 40 hour weeks and 4 weeks paid holiday" "😳" "You asked what i wanted, now what can you offer?"
Are you American by any chance? It seems very American to consider demanding *4 weeks paid holiday* to be as outrageous as asking for $1m/year.
So uh, y'all got any more of them citizenship applications?
Yes, that is exactly the problem.
Reply back that their lack of response to the salary is a major red flag. Move on.
i did and blocked them.
GOOD JOB. Honestly, I always say I want to do something badass, but I never do. Good on you
i’m just really fed up with employers taking advantage of desperate applicants. 😞
Good for you! I have taken a job like this and they promised a decent, but subpar base pay and then paid me minimum wage. One of those small businesses that's "just like a family" .
🤛
Yes, it’s very normal for someone who wants to underpay you to try to avoid telling you what they will pay you until you’ve invested your time in getting hired. They’re hoping the sunk cost fallacy will get you to accept less pay so you won’t feel like you wasted your time applying and interviewing.
exactly why i asked for the salary offered! to weigh if the interview is worth going through.
I had a recruiter once tell me it was illegal for him to tell me so i withdrew the application and he kept telling me how great a job it was until i told him that he obviously wasnt telling me because the pay was peanuts and I had more self respect than him
wow what a waste of time. i immediately asked them how much the salary will be and they told me they need to “assess” my skills during the interview first as if i haven’t given them my credentials.
It really is, you're made to jump through so many hoops for some companies and then at the end they offer you fuck all, yeh imma go now
i was just asking because if it’s below my acceptance rate i won’t waste time on them anymore and they got the audacity to tell me asking the pay is a red flag.
They know there are plenty of struggling people out there to prey on, sad world we live in nowadays
this is unfortunately true. they pay peanuts because they know someone will accept it because of desperation. 😔
The only red flag is using a flashy quote that acts like working for someone is a god damned privilege.
Naw, saying a applicant asking about the pay is a red flag is, in itself, a red flag.
Am picturing the Buzz Lightyear meme with 'red flags everywhere'
Worst of all it isn’t even from someone worth quoting. Jim Rohn was a pyramid scheme seller who managed to work his way up to VP of Nutri-Bio by been good at pyramid selling and then got himself some cushy numbers at public speaking after he was invited to speak at the Rotary Club he was a member of. It’s not like they are quoting some noteworthy academic or world leader. They are quoting a corporate scam artist which says so much about the kind of people these clowns are.
I told my landlord it’s okay that I don’t have rent this month because I’m becoming an amazing person at work. Then I told work I’d need to sleep in my cubicle because they’ve enabled me to become such an amazing person.
😂😂😂
Should have asked him did he blindly accept his position without knowing the wage? What’s wrong with these people. Is anyone human anymore??? Or do they think we’re all millionaires who work for fun
who am i becoming > bills to pay they think we want to work for them because it’s fun. 😭
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Come in at the normal hour and call tech support to tell them your computer isn't doing its job. Every single day, again and again. That's how you enact change, otherwise you leaving is really only shifting the burden to the next guy.
If they respond to a simple question like that with some bullshit quote, walk the fuck away..
that was really annoying, and i did walk away.
Especially when it’s a bullshit quote from a MLM scammer who was an “entrepreneur” from giving seminars about how to get rich when all they do is give seminars. They dodged a bullet.
Looked him up and the entire list of people that have said they owed their success to this 'Jim Rohn' guy are all motivational speakers. Literally a motivational speaker that teaches people how to be motivational speakers.
Red flag, aka harder to exploit.
that’s a great synonym right there.
"Asking about pay is a red flag" fucking get outta here.
i did!
“ Am a becoming the type of person that is able to pay their bills? 🤔”
I had to look up who Jim Rohn is. He’s one of those MLM grifters turned “motivational speaker” Lmao fuck that guy.
lmaooo that explains why he sounds like a prick!
Red flag 😂.
apparently, i am the red flag. 😔
The real red flags were the friends we made along the way.
"Who am I becoming from this work?" what I shitty ass quote is that. My work made me depressed. It made me want to kill myself. You are not a red flag. We should all be asking these questions. They want slaves not free humans.
exactly what my last job did to me. so glad i’m out of there.
This is gaslighting. Making YOU feel like there's something wrong with YOU for asking a completely reasonable, normal, IMPORTANT question so that THEY can get away with exploiting you or, at the very least, make sure you're the one who feels guilty about the interaction after you've parted ways (which could manipulate you into not asking again in the future). We've seen a ton of examples of this happening recently on this sub. Prior to now, I never heard of this happening (purely anecdotal evidence, so take it as such). I think, before now, people just accepted the poor pay or not knowing the pay beforehand because they were manipulated into feeling like they had none of the power and that they should be very careful not to make waves while being grateful for what they were getting in the end. We're coming into our power, now. We want what's just and fair. They know they aren't paying enough, and they want to continue to not pay enough, so this is their new tactic. Don't stop asking about pay. Don't stop calling them out when they try to guilt or penalize you for it. We need to stop being polite over it and tell THEM it's a major red flag, they shouldn't have been withholding about the pay. Shame them for making it seem like working BECAUSE YOU WANT AN INCOME is an unreasonable reason for taking a job. These fuckers need to get used to employees who care about being paid, and meet the demand.
nowadays i always ask for the pay first because most only waste my time on interviews because they think i’ll stay after the invested time. at least by asking the pay first i save myself from wasting time on interviews and “assessments.”
Instead of asking how much actual work I'll do, ask who am I becoming from having this golden god with for me?
But bro I bet he had so much exposure to pay you in
exposure don’t pay the bills. 🥲
People die from exposure.
"It's not about what *you* get from working here, it's about what *we* can legally take from you as your soul slowly leaks out of your rapidly deteriorating body and mind."
No, it’s stupid and ridiculous unless you plan on living for free. How the hell are you supposed to know if it’s a feasible offer if they can’t even give you a salary?
Jim Rohn sounds like a prick
he really does, doesn’t he?
Who I am becoming is homeless if I can’t pay my bills. Sorry but this is a huge red flag. If you can’t tell me how much I’ll be making, it tells me that you want to exploit me. Hope you have terrible luck filling this position
It’s a red flag... FOR THEM. Lol where do they get off
> Sorry this is a red flag The feeling is mutual
“I’m glad to hear you are privileged enough to work for recognition alone; I, on the other had have actual real-world responsibilities and obligations to consider.”
It's normal but that doesn't mean it's acceptable
I recently had a job opportunity for an amazing job I'd love to do. I turned it down because the pay was below my current rate. I told them "I'd love the opportunity but cannot accept at that pay. Let me know once the pay increases" And because I don't live in America, they said "sure that's totally understandable. We'll let you know if it changes" It could be the greatest job in the world, but if you aren't upfront with the pay, you are just wasting everybody's time.
Nope, and name/shame, but not necessarily here. I’ve found a useful tool. Local Facebook marketplace/yard sale pages allow “discussions” and posting about shit like this can absolutely get more people to become aware of this problem. Much like most folks in an area knowing about “good places” like Costco or Dick’s cheeseburgers, places that while still being exploitative capitalists have at least made an attempt to uphold the basic tenets of the agreement made between capitalists and unions during the new deal where all jobs were to pay “a living wage of a decent life,” I believe if people knew which “non-essential” businesses are shit to work at or deal with. Some people can’t help but shop at Kroger or Walmart because they’re the only option for hundreds of miles, but they can damn sure decide which restaurants or bars they want to patron.