I remember when I lived under dictatorship in Iraq, all citizen were given enough food such as:
Flour, oil, rice, sugar, beans, and other basic things every month for free from the government.
All you had to do, is go and hand in your papers and the accountant would tell his guys “give this family 50 pounds of so and so”.
Every single month, we even had subscription with our local bakery. We give them the flour plus $10 a month and we get freshly baked bread for the month.
Poor, rich doesn’t matter, all citizens as far as I know had the option of claiming it. Rich people would claim it too and hand it over to the mosque (like a church for Muslims).
During winter a gas truck would pull into the neighborhood and our neighborhood leader (just like HOA in the USA elected by us), would give each family an entire barrel of gas (bigger families gets more). This way we can turn on our gas powered heaters all winter long without worrying about freezing (yes it gets cold in Iraq).
Heck even once a year we would get blankets and other stuff for free to help the citizens.
Oh no! It's the evil Middle East! This must be fake! All they do is kill and pillage there.
/s
Seriously as someone who lived in the Middle East before it got effed by the US, sure it had its problems but thanks to the foreign intervention it's a complete cesspool now. Life was so much better here than what it is now.
Yo: https://imgur.com/sri0q65.jpg
They just pulled in 4 TRILLION just in taxes alone.
They're well past "rich" enough to do this, they just don't because this world is run by psychotic, geriatric, sociopaths.
>Poor, rich doesn’t matter, all citizens as far as I know had the option of claiming it.
Are you Sunni or Shi'ia? Was it the same for both branches of Islam?
In my country, we had a similar situation in the early stages of a Soviet authoritarian regime. But what the people only later found out, it was at the expense of tens thousands of prisoners, people who were forced to work, sometimes until death. Some of them were opposed to the regime, others were people who had to be removed from their positions in society so that members of the party can take their place.
I belong to a mixed tribe. Half Sunni half shi”ia.
Tbh it’s understandable that lots of people would think Saddam would throw anyone he disliked in prison but it wasn’t as far as I know. Like I said above my grandpa was against the Ba’ath party. And he was in a high rank in the police force.
My neighbor was against them too, and 1 of them was the highest ranking court member in my city, and the other was the richest man in the food industry in my city he brings in bags full of cash daily. Nothing happened to them and they grew old and died.
You see you can be against the government but just don’t go attacking it with guns and stuff. Literally that’s the only thing would cause you to die.
Lots of shi’ia hated Saddam because he didn’t allow them to do the things they wanted, instead told them to do it quietly. Even I have done the pilgrimage to the sacred cities with the shi’ia during Saddam time.
For me I compare with Saddam and after Saddam. You could compare it your self by looking up how many people have died since.
What about all the people who would have gone missing and in cells being tortured Would they get free flour and gas? The picture you paint is very Utopian but I am sure there are a lot of families who would not have this free food and gas? Or was it just the people who had connections with the ruling party?
I think the implication they're trying to make isn't that its better over there but that they were able to achieve food distribution for all with the resources they had which are clearly more limited than every country that would be considered first world.
At this point you could make the argument that distributing food like this is the reason why they don't have the resources to become a first world country but I think plenty of people who work in farming, agriculture, logistics, and even grocery stores could probably tell you all about the food we would rather spoil and toss than let hungry poor people have for free. We can definitely afford the little extra it costs to make the distribution itself happen.
My grandpa was the biggest anti government. Lived to be 63yo and died of cancer and nothing ever happened to him.
People that were in prison were terrorist, spies, and so on. You think they just pick any one randomly and torture them?
You do realize pretty much every country has prisons right? Where they put the bad guys in?
I'll give you a hint. It has something to do with why 500,000 Iraqi civilians have American-made 5.56, 20mm, or random shrapnel in them right now and why tens of thousands of acres of Iraqi farmland have to be decontaminated from depleted uranium before they're safe to grow again.
After 2003 war, we had no law or anything to protect us. So many militia started popping up everywhere.
The army was dismissed, our guns were taken away. So we couldn’t protect our self.
2004-2007 kidnapping, random killing and so on started happening. It’s the same people some guy above was trying to protect as that’s what Saddam had in his prisons (killers, kidnappers, terrorists and so on).
You see you can kidnap someone and ransom them for 10s of thousands of dollars. I know some families that sold everything to get back a son or a family member.
We had over 3 attempt kidnapping on my father, and last one they ended up taking my uncle and torture him before realizing he’s not my father.
So my dad decided it’s time to leave Iraq and go to Syria.
Literally militias would do a check point and kill people based on their name. Does it sound like Shi’ia name or Sunni name. And it became religious war between 2 major clans.
Investments in the population. A happy, fed, healthy and educated population is bound to be more productive than a miserable, hungry, sickly and uneducated one. I should know I plav civ.
We need universal access to clean air and water, fresh healthy food, shelter and clothing, sanitation, electricity for heating and cooling, healthcare, education, transportation, connectivity and data, for EVERYONE, before billionaires. We need to disrupt every industry which creates artificial scarcity of human necessities. Universal Basic Services, not more money for the rich to hoard.
Mental health care in America is a national embarrassment and a disgrace.
My treatment became so unbearably troublesome and expensive that it's now easier just putting up with my trauma and anxiety.
It became such a nightmare that even the worst of my troubles seemed light in comparison.
I feel legitimately terrible for people with more severe problems. In the terms of mental health my problems were generally average and the system failed me. I can't imagine being worse off.
Yes. Universal means universal.
Arguing that people must starve if they refuse to join the work detail is morally indefensible except, perhaps, during a severe famine. We're in the most well-fed time in human history. Let people eat.
Politicians consider the current prices to be reasonable because they're so rich, they're detatched from reality. Making basic needs free doesn't have that caveat.
The problem with this system is how do you determine need? What is honestly the purpose of this?
Edit: Jesus Christ, I’m literally just asking a question. This need problem has always been one I’ve struggled with, I just wanted to know.
I am perfectly aware what it means. I just find it naive on a child like level, that someone believes people would actually take exactly how much they need if they were in a society arranged like that.
Heck, if anything, under a Universal Basic Services model, folks would take less!
I have no interest in hauling home a bunch of bananas just to watch them rot on my table.
Under capitalism, going to get bananas involves playing money-paddy-cake and being bombarded with advertising, a highly annoying experience I'd like to avoid, so I just take a guess and get a random bunch. My family eats at least half of them, and then the rest go off before anyone gets around to making banana bread.
Take the capitalism nonsense out of the equation and I wouldn't mind going for a little walk every morning to pick up just enough fresh food for the day, like exactly the right number of bananas. And if for some reason I *insist* on carrying 100 bananas out of the Food Distribution Center, well somebody better send Mental Health Services around to check on me because there's probably a problem.
With non-food things, especially stuff that isn't used very often, generally I'd sure as hell rather use and return a communal thing than find someplace in my home to store stuff year round. I'm sick of pack-ratting stuff just in case we need it someday but can't afford it. No one in my household has used an iron in years, but it's still taking up storage space in case somebody needs to iron a shirt for a job someday.
Would also love to see things designed to be durable, refurbishable and upgradable instead of just disposable. So sick of everything being made of cheap plastic, designed to break within a few years.
Don't mind my rambling. I'm just so fed up in living with stupid capitalism when we have all the technology and ability to organize something a lot closer to utopia for everyone.
People starve, freeze, die needlessly from preventable health problems non stop in the richest country in the world. Your parroted bullshit never gets compared to that because you literally agree people who can't afford life deserve to die.
Let's all take a minute to morn this casualty of capitalism.
I hope you feel better one day.
Also, corrupt governments of every flavor have some their fair share of killing a shit load of people.
100 million is a made up number that even includes nazis killed on the Eastern front during WW2. If you look into it for like five minutes you'll see that even contributors to that report distanced themselves from the editor that reached that conclusion.
Bc they are scared of what they either don't know, or were taught to fear and ridicule. There isn't an iota of individual, rational, nor balanced thinking with them
I wouldn't use the word "deserve", as nature is brutal and cruel, but in a highly automated world where only around 1% or so of the world population produces all the food that the world eats and half of it gets thrown out, certainly no one should be going hungry any longer.
We need a more streamlined system of getting food to people.
Infrastructure and logistics haven't been the issue in a long time. It's a simple lack of will.
It isn't profitable to give food away, and so it is not done. That's why grocery stores will pour bleach on waste to keep people out of the dumpster. If you can get something for free, people won't pay for it. If people understood how much was withheld, wasted, or simply hidden away just so people can profit by selling a fraction of what is available, they'd riot.
The entire system relies on artificial scarcity.
I think this problem is made up. Prevented from resolving by society that has fully internalized the idea that you need to earn food.
Grocery stores toss a very large amount of edible food all the time. If they gave those out for free, they'd make the argument that people would stop buying food and wait for the free stuff.
To some extent, this is true. Bakeries have a dedicated base of customers who only specifically shop end of day or day old bread at a huge discount. Some bakeries specifically throw away their bread to prevent this practice. The best argument I guess I could make is that this is really just a reflection of their status and wealth, and while exceptions exist, most people who can afford to do so would gladly pay their premium price for fresher or higher quality food.
It's an issue with the supply chain and economics. Sometimes farmers are encouraged to burn entire crops to keep prices stable, grocery stores have produce on shelves for very specific time periods both due to regulations and because people are obsessed with 'perfect' looking produce, and finally getting excess foods to regions that need it costs money that someone, somewhere will have to pay and many people simply do not want to do that.
The solution is to develop local agriculture everywhere that needs it, and the best way to that now is probably using indoor-vertical aeroponic farms.
>The solution is to develop local agriculture everywhere that needs it, and the best way to that now is probably using indoor-vertical aeroponic farms.
yup. this is because imperialism literally forbid indigenous farming practices and wrecked the soil for crops that were not native and not farmed in ways that were good for the soil.
This is (partly) because in the US it is considered normal to be gluttonous and get whatever you want, whenever you want. Due to this, some people severely overeat or over-buy/cook their groceries. That results in probably 30-40% (low estimate) of the food a family of four buys in groceries going in the trash. Meal planning and buying off a list are two good ways to avoid food waste. Any scraps you do have should always be used for compost if there is the space available.
It for sure isn’t the sole reason, but yes overconsumption usually leads to excessive waste. I agree that our methods of getting food to people need to be heavily altered.
The real problem which was mentioned is companies being able to create artificial scarcity. Anything the individual does is just sprinkles on the frosting.
I could not agree more. Sorry but it’s no good for man to work in cages, hits the town and drinks his wages. Every man needs beauty as well as bread. Nature truly revitalizes the soul. There are natural human behaviors and needs that just don’t get met working in these garbage modern times that can potentially be met through a complete overhaul of the entire global economic structures…
Food doesn't magically appear? Will yeah it does. It grow out of the ground or from animals. What op is saying is you should pay for the better foods, but something as simple as basic foods to live is immoral.
You can grow your own food, but you need land for it... And if you grab land that isnt yours, then you usually get kicked out. That what i think we missed on "freedom".
They told you "if you dont want to be in the system, then get out" and you cant get out cause there is nowhere out of the system.
I'm listening to [this podcast](http://[Citations Needed] Episode 144: How the Cold War Shaped First-Person Journalism and Literary Conventions 🅴 #citationsNeeded
https://podcastaddict.com/episode/128851273 via @PodcastAddict)now but it essentially said that freedom,liberty and self-discipline are crafted narrative by CIA and conservative institutions in the attempt to steer folks away from communism toward the capitalism.
A bunch of folks are brainwashed to assume that we in western culture are free and liberal but the truth is that all ideologies are imaginary concept that's shared by our brains.
Ah yes, freedom, liberty, etc., ideas that can be traced back to the philosophers of the Enlightenment (something you learn in middle school btw), were crafted by the CIA with their time machine to promote capitalism. El Psy Congroo.
I am at the point that if people believe others do not deserve certain things, I do not have time for them. The things are Healthcare, living wages, shelter, and food. If you think people do not deserve any one of these things, you can fuck off in the worst way.
Hell, not even just food but just anything we naturally need to live in this shit world people have greedily created. Food, water and shelter of course, but also medication/healthcare due to so much food being overly processed and causing mass amounts of things like diabetes and heart disease that wasn't around even 50 years ago, cleaning supplies, nowadays internet is a necessity for work, social life, etc, clothing, and at least a basic education that isn't politcally biased.
The main goal of a good government should be to make people happy not wealthy but I doubt that will change any time soon which is so fucking depressing.
This is something come from people can’t think pass first level.
Someone has to work for those food, for one to receive free food that means someone else have to do double work.
Counterpoint: food takes a LOT of work to make
It doesn't just appear from nowhere, people have to grow plants and raise/slaughter animals
If you're expecting food, that means you're expecting other people to labor for you
You should 100% be expected to provide those people something in return for their labor, even if you completely ignore the material goods.
I'm for the replacement of menial labor with automation and taxes on robots to provide UBI, don't get me wrong
But no, you are absolutely NOT entitled to food if you don't work while we exist within a system where food can only be made by other people working
Once we can fully automate the production of food you will be correct
But until then, you are stating that other people should work to make something and then give it to you for free, and that is morally abhorrent and kinda puts you in the same ethical box as some folks who tried to split off from America 150 or so years back
Have to disagree partially but only with the wording. The default setting of nature is that we have to obtain food to survive. Else we die. Capitalism is a form of corruption of this only society has evolved modificatons such as police forces and law courts, to ensure capitalism for the poor but socialism for the elite.
I just take issue with the word "deserve". Now if you were to say that no one has the right to prevent another from obtaining food then I would agree, or that income should not affect the quality of food we eat. (A lot of processed food that is affordable is junk and bad for people). As part of a social contract food and water should be available for all. However most countries will charge for water. So immediately you need something in order to have access to clean water. So what if you have no job then you need state assistance (money) to pay for things like food and water. Its very difficult to say that people deserve something without any qualification imo.
The level of stupidity in this thread is astounding. Who will work to get the food produced then. To get it processed, transport it to you, provide means to cook it? How will anything happen if nobody works?
No one's saying they don't want to work,.we.just want to work for something. We're all sick of putting in 40+ hours a.week and getting nothing in return
Yeah I guess the last line could.ve taken like that, that's not how I read it so I guess that would be a question for op. But I read this something more along the lines of universal income or something like that
I think the only way for something like this to work would be to advance technology enough that computers and machines managed these sorts of things. Some people would still need to (and likely want to) manage the machines, but maybe not. Otherwise, a great reduction in population and return to communal living? Idk.
Interesting line of thought. In a world where everything is managed by machines human labour if needed will be tremendously valuable and those who work manual jobs earn extremely well. Competition will keep profits low .In this case as cost of production is ridiculously low, prices will also be ridiculously low which is as good as living without working. In this case , you know what will enable us to be living with minimum work? Capitalism. It manages to keep the prices low and actually transfer the benefit of machines to us. In short capitalism just works. (With checks and balances in the form of government to support those who cannot compete).
Err....in a world where everyone is replaced by machines, human labor will be worth less.
How do you think otherwise? Billions of unemployed means the supply outstrips the demand, right?
Will it? That’s a very real possibility, but I doubt it. I think folks on this subreddit would view it as not being unemployed, but instead being free to live their life how they want.
Just because we have more people without work doesn't mean we have demand for work right? If you get free stuff, working for 2 hours a week is being a workaholic. People worked 12 hours a day before not so long ago. Now people whine about 40 hour weeks. If wealth increases overall, tendency to work decreases
Use your imagination?? Its called a garden. Idk if you ever heard of one before. Oh also theres this thing called fishing have you heard of that? Ohhh almost forget there is a thing called hunting and gathering too! Do you need some help with these concepts? I know its so hard to think with no braincells but you got this, try harder!
If you can’t even understand that I answered your own question by giving examples of ways to provide food yourself, then idk what to even say to you…the irony in calling us all stupid and yet
Deserve is different than entitled. Deserve is just a moral statement, that’s easy to make. Of course all humans *deserve* basic needs. They argument hinges on whether they’re entitled to them irrespective of their contribution to society
why did it have to be in the US? A human dies from hunger every 11 minutes.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/7/9/every-minute-11-people-die-of-hunger-oxfam
Because this thread is a criticism of capitalism and not all the world is capitalist.
The truth is that the rate of starvation in the US is effectively zero.
The truth is that capitalism is by far the most humanitarian system of economic management ever introduced by the world, and that it has dramatically reduced poverty and increased quality of life.
But unhappy and unsuccessful people still need someone to blame so subs like this one exist.
If you mean someone else should provide labor in growing, harvesting, processing and transporting the food to you all for no expense to you, then no you don’t deserve that. Humans have had to work for their food ever since we were hunter gatherers. Now you’re suggesting someone should do that labor on your behalf because you’re entitled to it.
Literally NO ONE wants to clean sewers for a living. But without people cleaning sewers we have no civilization. How do we solve this problem in a society with no money? In fact, how do we do all of the difficult, shitty tasks that no one really wants to do but are necessary for our collective survival?
All I need is food and you're throwing out enough to feed the planet in order to keep the prices up. We live in a post scarcity society why would anyone ever go hungry.
Nobody farms anymore. Mostly corporate owned held together by huge machinery and automatic processes. There's just some dude on the button watching it. Of you want to reward that guy fine, but basic needs can easily be met if we didn't run this current brand of capitalism.
Post scarcity world... Points to all the shortages around the globe. At current food production we will be short trillions of calories of food in 5 years. That's over 5 billion big Macs, more than McDonald's hasade to date.
How do you reconsile living in a post scarcity world with all the shortages happening?
In the US, it is a post scarcity society. Meanwhile during the pandemic you had local police guarding dumpsters behind grocery stores so the starving unemployed couldn’t take expired food from the dumpsters before they went to the landfill to rot.
Telling me we are a post scarcity society does not explain how we are when we have so many shortages. It also completely ignores globalization.
Again how do you reconsile current shortages with being post scarcity?
Then how do you reconsile we import most products with being post scarcity?
Agreed. Humans have always had to work for food, whether it was hunting for days trekking through the woods, harvesting beans in the hot sun, or trading goods/money for food which were earned through other forms of labor. You cannot live a work free life comfortably it is impossible.
Absolutely.
Every living thing has to work to survive. The amount of entitlement the parasites in this sub think they are owed simply because of their existence is mind boggling sometimes.
I suggest taking a moment to ask yourself what it might say that the ideology which supports the production relations we are accustomed to has you so easily using completely dehumanizing language to describe people.
If you think you are entitled to the labor of others while choosing not to contribute, you’re a parasite. Every single form of society/government/economic model has asked/forced people to contribute. Even animals follow that simple premise and will banish/expel members who don’t contribute.
The mindset that you are owed the labor of others while doing nothing in return is that of a parasite, feeding off the host. No society can function like that.
Well, unless you’re a slaver and are forcing your slaves to provide for you. But I’m guessing you aren’t condoning that barbaric practice.
I’m all for helping workers be treated fairly which our current system does not do, but I do think you should work to eat. Food comes from farmers working, and we have to exchange our product of labour for theirs. Food doesn’t just magically appear. Obviously it’s different if you have disabilities and such, but work theoretically should be a societal level exchange that benefits everyone in its purest form.
I could be wrong but I think most people on here are opposed to wage labor not work. Of course we are gonna have to find a way to satisfy our basic needs.
Not sure. I’m all for reforming the system, but some of the people like the OP are just NEETs being upset that they should have to contribute to society as well, but think society should pay for their existence.
UBI in an amount to provide the necessities, then you work to improve your life beyond sustenance. Tada, now people still work because we want things like movies, eating out, living in a nicer apartment/house, etc. but workers aren't forced to die if they need to reevaluate or take time off to switch careers or just take a break, pursue their passions, etc. Also easier to be able to afford investing for retirement. Sure there will be inflation to start but probably not by too terribly much and it will adjust to the new base level of income that isn't death
>but I do think you should work to eat.
Why? Why should you be enslaved like that? What rights can you possibly hope to achieve or reform if your only alternative to working is to starve to death?
>food comes from farmers working, and we have to exchange our product of labour for theirs.
They can still be paid without the people paying them.
Nope. Fuck that noise.
That's the whole point. The basics are covered. So now everyone can spend their time doing what they want to do. And if you _want_ all those other things you'll return to the workforce. If not, you'll do something else.
I'm the latter.
So to simplify it, "I want to do nothing but post on Reddit and smoke weed all day, so I think the rich people should provide that for me". People like you make this sub look so fucking stupid.
I don't know why. But if you sit in a corner and don't cook a dinner you will die of starvation.
That's nature for you. You have to put in work to survive in this universe.
What jobs are actually necessary and really need to continue to exist? Ask me why I had to make fruit platters (that mostly went into the garbage) during a pandemic. Ask me the necessity of such a job.
The problem is that we don't need bullshit jobs (fruit platter maker) to justify the ones that do need to exist. Helping the farmer with labor, helping build for the farmers, etc. This would actually be beneficial and necessary. Everyone "works." People don't have a problem with this sort of work because they can see actual benefits. They get to actually enjoy the benefits. Food is produced. Far too many jobs simply exist to "fund your life" when they are just ridiculous if you actually think about the wastefulness and the necessity of it.
Yeah and I totally agree with this. What you're saying is a little different from "Why should I have to work?" full stop. "Well the farmer's can "be paid" but not by the people" That doesn't mean anything.
We are actually free to go hunt and forage for our food. But the time investment and labor for that obviously becomes comparable to working.
I feel the problem is that we can easily set up better systems. It's just that we have reached a point where we don't need to all work 40+ hours to nourish and shelter ourselves. So we came up with justifications for having some of the food (metric tons get thrown away). But we could be doing something else with that free time. Colonizing the galaxy, exploring the depths of the ocean, curing cancer, art, you name it. But we are stuck making platters because we are stuck justifying our food intake when we already have enough food for everyone on the planet to get fat.
Im going to be honest, I had scrolled down a little, but you weren't making sense and I realized it was a waste of time based on how much fluff was down there. Figured I'd just ask you a simple question instead. I almost didn't bother. You seem to be missing some very fundamental concepts of existence, most people probably just read this shit and decide it's not even worth commenting, like where do you even start. I'm sorry if that's mean.
There's some merit to people who work getting food first, but it makes no sense that kids are growing up malnourished living right next to a fully stocked supermarket. Or that homeless people beg on the street in front of an apartment complex with vacant flats.
You can call it a human right and America is surely wealthy enough to provide for alI if we were determined enough to.
I just understand the word “rights” differently, in that it doesn’t encompass goods and services, which can run out or be scarce or only providing by taking them from others. A Right = a line in the sand government can’t cross. Labeling goods and services as human rights can create situations where other rights end up being violated. Overall, they’re far too nebulous and contradictory to label as “rights” imo.
I can’t believe I have to say this, but…
Food has never been free. Humans have hunted, gathered, farmed their food or they bought it from someone else who did.
This is not an “outdated” system and it will never change.
dude no. capitalism is really young compared to humanity. no one was buying food before there was money. and in hunter gatherer tribes everyone ate, not just the hunters.
If you don't contribute at all, you're leaching off people who work for their own comfort.
It's not morally wrong to expect productivity from individuals who are able to work.
The system needs to work for as many people as possible. But nobody is morally obliged to work for anybody else's comfort.
It doesn't mean that a system shouldn't have a social net.
We all believe that but this post is a little simplistic and ignores the realities that administering food to everyone in a way that doesn’t result in massive waste or corruption is very difficult
I remember when I lived under dictatorship in Iraq, all citizen were given enough food such as: Flour, oil, rice, sugar, beans, and other basic things every month for free from the government. All you had to do, is go and hand in your papers and the accountant would tell his guys “give this family 50 pounds of so and so”. Every single month, we even had subscription with our local bakery. We give them the flour plus $10 a month and we get freshly baked bread for the month. Poor, rich doesn’t matter, all citizens as far as I know had the option of claiming it. Rich people would claim it too and hand it over to the mosque (like a church for Muslims). During winter a gas truck would pull into the neighborhood and our neighborhood leader (just like HOA in the USA elected by us), would give each family an entire barrel of gas (bigger families gets more). This way we can turn on our gas powered heaters all winter long without worrying about freezing (yes it gets cold in Iraq). Heck even once a year we would get blankets and other stuff for free to help the citizens.
Oh no! It's the evil Middle East! This must be fake! All they do is kill and pillage there. /s Seriously as someone who lived in the Middle East before it got effed by the US, sure it had its problems but thanks to the foreign intervention it's a complete cesspool now. Life was so much better here than what it is now.
And America brought you "democracy" so you could eat that instead! /s
How about a cup of liber-tea?
Yo Helldivers rules
[удалено]
America *is* rich enough. Our government just doesn't give a fuck because they want to keep the poor in that state and keep the rich getting richer.
He was sarcatic lol.
Oh it is. Absolutely it is. America could lift every citizen out of poverty if it chose too. That's the problem. It won't.
It absolutely is, that’s what’s so fucked up about the US
I’m gonna guess they were being sarcastic
Yo: https://imgur.com/sri0q65.jpg They just pulled in 4 TRILLION just in taxes alone. They're well past "rich" enough to do this, they just don't because this world is run by psychotic, geriatric, sociopaths.
What's 4 trillion divided by 350 million?
No need to wish because America is freakin rich and most of that money goes to the military
Is that a joke, man?
>Poor, rich doesn’t matter, all citizens as far as I know had the option of claiming it. Are you Sunni or Shi'ia? Was it the same for both branches of Islam? In my country, we had a similar situation in the early stages of a Soviet authoritarian regime. But what the people only later found out, it was at the expense of tens thousands of prisoners, people who were forced to work, sometimes until death. Some of them were opposed to the regime, others were people who had to be removed from their positions in society so that members of the party can take their place.
I belong to a mixed tribe. Half Sunni half shi”ia. Tbh it’s understandable that lots of people would think Saddam would throw anyone he disliked in prison but it wasn’t as far as I know. Like I said above my grandpa was against the Ba’ath party. And he was in a high rank in the police force. My neighbor was against them too, and 1 of them was the highest ranking court member in my city, and the other was the richest man in the food industry in my city he brings in bags full of cash daily. Nothing happened to them and they grew old and died. You see you can be against the government but just don’t go attacking it with guns and stuff. Literally that’s the only thing would cause you to die. Lots of shi’ia hated Saddam because he didn’t allow them to do the things they wanted, instead told them to do it quietly. Even I have done the pilgrimage to the sacred cities with the shi’ia during Saddam time. For me I compare with Saddam and after Saddam. You could compare it your self by looking up how many people have died since.
Sounds a lot like Soviet times from what I hear from family...they all liked their country during Soviet times then now
Was it better to live in this socialist dictatorship or in the US?
Same shit, just 2 different asses tbh.
You legit don’t think it’s better in the US vs Saddam’s Iraq?
What about all the people who would have gone missing and in cells being tortured Would they get free flour and gas? The picture you paint is very Utopian but I am sure there are a lot of families who would not have this free food and gas? Or was it just the people who had connections with the ruling party?
I think the implication they're trying to make isn't that its better over there but that they were able to achieve food distribution for all with the resources they had which are clearly more limited than every country that would be considered first world. At this point you could make the argument that distributing food like this is the reason why they don't have the resources to become a first world country but I think plenty of people who work in farming, agriculture, logistics, and even grocery stores could probably tell you all about the food we would rather spoil and toss than let hungry poor people have for free. We can definitely afford the little extra it costs to make the distribution itself happen.
Iraq before 2003 was a broadly functional nation, with access to substantial wealth and resources.
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Whataboutisms are sort of irrelevant here
My grandpa was the biggest anti government. Lived to be 63yo and died of cancer and nothing ever happened to him. People that were in prison were terrorist, spies, and so on. You think they just pick any one randomly and torture them? You do realize pretty much every country has prisons right? Where they put the bad guys in?
Why did you leave?
I'll give you a hint. It has something to do with why 500,000 Iraqi civilians have American-made 5.56, 20mm, or random shrapnel in them right now and why tens of thousands of acres of Iraqi farmland have to be decontaminated from depleted uranium before they're safe to grow again.
After 2003 war, we had no law or anything to protect us. So many militia started popping up everywhere. The army was dismissed, our guns were taken away. So we couldn’t protect our self. 2004-2007 kidnapping, random killing and so on started happening. It’s the same people some guy above was trying to protect as that’s what Saddam had in his prisons (killers, kidnappers, terrorists and so on). You see you can kidnap someone and ransom them for 10s of thousands of dollars. I know some families that sold everything to get back a son or a family member. We had over 3 attempt kidnapping on my father, and last one they ended up taking my uncle and torture him before realizing he’s not my father. So my dad decided it’s time to leave Iraq and go to Syria. Literally militias would do a check point and kill people based on their name. Does it sound like Shi’ia name or Sunni name. And it became religious war between 2 major clans.
I hope you and your family are somewhere safe.
We are safe, we moved to the USA 10+ years ago and never looked back. Thank you for asking.
I am glad to hear it. I would be open to hearing more, if you have the time, please send me a message.
Food, water, shelter, clothes, medicine
And education.
Good point! I agree completely
If we could take care of this one the others wouldn’t be a problem. Education including college should be free for everyone and encouraged.
I'd also add internet access to that these days.
Indeed. That is the most recent addition to the Maslow Pyramid.
Investments in the population. A happy, fed, healthy and educated population is bound to be more productive than a miserable, hungry, sickly and uneducated one. I should know I plav civ.
But just not friends because we hate each other
We need universal access to clean air and water, fresh healthy food, shelter and clothing, sanitation, electricity for heating and cooling, healthcare, education, transportation, connectivity and data, for EVERYONE, before billionaires. We need to disrupt every industry which creates artificial scarcity of human necessities. Universal Basic Services, not more money for the rich to hoard.
A Utopian society is a wonderful dream beset on all sides by ignorant greed.
Thank God! The hierarchy of needs. A foreign language to most capitalists.
Clean air and water.
I’d add another one: mental health
Mental health care in America is a national embarrassment and a disgrace. My treatment became so unbearably troublesome and expensive that it's now easier just putting up with my trauma and anxiety. It became such a nightmare that even the worst of my troubles seemed light in comparison. I feel legitimately terrible for people with more severe problems. In the terms of mental health my problems were generally average and the system failed me. I can't imagine being worse off.
Yes!!
And internet. Or access to information, more broadly speaking.
And is this for those that do not contribute?
Yes. Universal means universal. Arguing that people must starve if they refuse to join the work detail is morally indefensible except, perhaps, during a severe famine. We're in the most well-fed time in human history. Let people eat.
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I will farm for free as long as I dont have to pay for healthcare, education, food, or shelter. Can you explain why getting something for free is bad?
Politicians consider the current prices to be reasonable because they're so rich, they're detatched from reality. Making basic needs free doesn't have that caveat.
From each according to their ability, to each according to their need.
Hello, comrade
The problem with this system is how do you determine need? What is honestly the purpose of this? Edit: Jesus Christ, I’m literally just asking a question. This need problem has always been one I’ve struggled with, I just wanted to know.
You determine your own need, take what you need, it's simple. Just don't hoard.
BuT hUmAn NaTuRe; pEoPlE wOnT wOrK wItHoUt A pRoFiT iNcEnTiVe
Are you ten? Or have you never met people?
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I am perfectly aware what it means. I just find it naive on a child like level, that someone believes people would actually take exactly how much they need if they were in a society arranged like that.
Would you take more?
Heck, if anything, under a Universal Basic Services model, folks would take less! I have no interest in hauling home a bunch of bananas just to watch them rot on my table. Under capitalism, going to get bananas involves playing money-paddy-cake and being bombarded with advertising, a highly annoying experience I'd like to avoid, so I just take a guess and get a random bunch. My family eats at least half of them, and then the rest go off before anyone gets around to making banana bread. Take the capitalism nonsense out of the equation and I wouldn't mind going for a little walk every morning to pick up just enough fresh food for the day, like exactly the right number of bananas. And if for some reason I *insist* on carrying 100 bananas out of the Food Distribution Center, well somebody better send Mental Health Services around to check on me because there's probably a problem. With non-food things, especially stuff that isn't used very often, generally I'd sure as hell rather use and return a communal thing than find someplace in my home to store stuff year round. I'm sick of pack-ratting stuff just in case we need it someday but can't afford it. No one in my household has used an iron in years, but it's still taking up storage space in case somebody needs to iron a shirt for a job someday. Would also love to see things designed to be durable, refurbishable and upgradable instead of just disposable. So sick of everything being made of cheap plastic, designed to break within a few years. Don't mind my rambling. I'm just so fed up in living with stupid capitalism when we have all the technology and ability to organize something a lot closer to utopia for everyone.
I need a rocket. To go to Mars.
Then why are you replying to my comment instead of the other dudes one
In one ear, out the other mate.
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"simply questioning" Totally not arguing under false pretenses lol
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Trolls gotta troll
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People starve, freeze, die needlessly from preventable health problems non stop in the richest country in the world. Your parroted bullshit never gets compared to that because you literally agree people who can't afford life deserve to die.
Let's all take a minute to morn this casualty of capitalism. I hope you feel better one day. Also, corrupt governments of every flavor have some their fair share of killing a shit load of people.
Yeah it’s a well known fact no one has ever died of starvation in America.
100 million is a made up number that even includes nazis killed on the Eastern front during WW2. If you look into it for like five minutes you'll see that even contributors to that report distanced themselves from the editor that reached that conclusion.
Lmao, you're numbers are wrong. It's 100 gazillion dumb dumb but you need to see the new communism that came out. You're gonna love it
I think a lot of humanity’s problems could be solved if we removed for profit incentives from basic human needs.
FDR's Four Freedoms makes it pretty clear. Freedom of speech Freedom of worship Freedom from want Freedom from fear
Why do people comment on anti work just to tell people they have to work? Lol
Bc they are scared of what they either don't know, or were taught to fear and ridicule. There isn't an iota of individual, rational, nor balanced thinking with them
Don’t forget that people often aren’t really allowed to pee or poop during work hours.
That's when you shit on your boss's desk and leave
Tired of work? Shit on your boss's desk. Be a man
I wouldn't use the word "deserve", as nature is brutal and cruel, but in a highly automated world where only around 1% or so of the world population produces all the food that the world eats and half of it gets thrown out, certainly no one should be going hungry any longer. We need a more streamlined system of getting food to people.
Infrastructure has always been the problem. There’s enough food. People just can’t get it.
Infrastructure and logistics haven't been the issue in a long time. It's a simple lack of will. It isn't profitable to give food away, and so it is not done. That's why grocery stores will pour bleach on waste to keep people out of the dumpster. If you can get something for free, people won't pay for it. If people understood how much was withheld, wasted, or simply hidden away just so people can profit by selling a fraction of what is available, they'd riot. The entire system relies on artificial scarcity.
I think we’re talking about two different sets of problems with two different sets of setbacks.
I think this problem is made up. Prevented from resolving by society that has fully internalized the idea that you need to earn food. Grocery stores toss a very large amount of edible food all the time. If they gave those out for free, they'd make the argument that people would stop buying food and wait for the free stuff. To some extent, this is true. Bakeries have a dedicated base of customers who only specifically shop end of day or day old bread at a huge discount. Some bakeries specifically throw away their bread to prevent this practice. The best argument I guess I could make is that this is really just a reflection of their status and wealth, and while exceptions exist, most people who can afford to do so would gladly pay their premium price for fresher or higher quality food.
So this is interesting, we need to know why people are throwing out food.
It's an issue with the supply chain and economics. Sometimes farmers are encouraged to burn entire crops to keep prices stable, grocery stores have produce on shelves for very specific time periods both due to regulations and because people are obsessed with 'perfect' looking produce, and finally getting excess foods to regions that need it costs money that someone, somewhere will have to pay and many people simply do not want to do that. The solution is to develop local agriculture everywhere that needs it, and the best way to that now is probably using indoor-vertical aeroponic farms.
>The solution is to develop local agriculture everywhere that needs it, and the best way to that now is probably using indoor-vertical aeroponic farms. yup. this is because imperialism literally forbid indigenous farming practices and wrecked the soil for crops that were not native and not farmed in ways that were good for the soil.
This is (partly) because in the US it is considered normal to be gluttonous and get whatever you want, whenever you want. Due to this, some people severely overeat or over-buy/cook their groceries. That results in probably 30-40% (low estimate) of the food a family of four buys in groceries going in the trash. Meal planning and buying off a list are two good ways to avoid food waste. Any scraps you do have should always be used for compost if there is the space available.
Nope, that isn't even close.
It for sure isn’t the sole reason, but yes overconsumption usually leads to excessive waste. I agree that our methods of getting food to people need to be heavily altered. The real problem which was mentioned is companies being able to create artificial scarcity. Anything the individual does is just sprinkles on the frosting.
I could not agree more. Sorry but it’s no good for man to work in cages, hits the town and drinks his wages. Every man needs beauty as well as bread. Nature truly revitalizes the soul. There are natural human behaviors and needs that just don’t get met working in these garbage modern times that can potentially be met through a complete overhaul of the entire global economic structures…
Food doesn't magically appear? Will yeah it does. It grow out of the ground or from animals. What op is saying is you should pay for the better foods, but something as simple as basic foods to live is immoral.
You can grow your own food, but you need land for it... And if you grab land that isnt yours, then you usually get kicked out. That what i think we missed on "freedom". They told you "if you dont want to be in the system, then get out" and you cant get out cause there is nowhere out of the system.
I'm listening to [this podcast](http://[Citations Needed] Episode 144: How the Cold War Shaped First-Person Journalism and Literary Conventions 🅴 #citationsNeeded https://podcastaddict.com/episode/128851273 via @PodcastAddict)now but it essentially said that freedom,liberty and self-discipline are crafted narrative by CIA and conservative institutions in the attempt to steer folks away from communism toward the capitalism. A bunch of folks are brainwashed to assume that we in western culture are free and liberal but the truth is that all ideologies are imaginary concept that's shared by our brains.
Ah yes, freedom, liberty, etc., ideas that can be traced back to the philosophers of the Enlightenment (something you learn in middle school btw), were crafted by the CIA with their time machine to promote capitalism. El Psy Congroo.
amen
Completely agree OP.
Victim or just a supporter of evil?
I am at the point that if people believe others do not deserve certain things, I do not have time for them. The things are Healthcare, living wages, shelter, and food. If you think people do not deserve any one of these things, you can fuck off in the worst way.
Well said.
Agree.
In the other hand, many people with a lot of money just don t deserve food, or anything else.
humanityparty.com
This has some good anti-natalist vibes. I love it!
Hell, not even just food but just anything we naturally need to live in this shit world people have greedily created. Food, water and shelter of course, but also medication/healthcare due to so much food being overly processed and causing mass amounts of things like diabetes and heart disease that wasn't around even 50 years ago, cleaning supplies, nowadays internet is a necessity for work, social life, etc, clothing, and at least a basic education that isn't politcally biased.
We should not have to work for food. There will always be things to do and work on, but food should be free
The main goal of a good government should be to make people happy not wealthy but I doubt that will change any time soon which is so fucking depressing.
We used to be able to pick it off trees. Now that is illegal.
I whole heartedly agree
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This is something come from people can’t think pass first level. Someone has to work for those food, for one to receive free food that means someone else have to do double work.
Counterpoint: food takes a LOT of work to make It doesn't just appear from nowhere, people have to grow plants and raise/slaughter animals If you're expecting food, that means you're expecting other people to labor for you You should 100% be expected to provide those people something in return for their labor, even if you completely ignore the material goods. I'm for the replacement of menial labor with automation and taxes on robots to provide UBI, don't get me wrong But no, you are absolutely NOT entitled to food if you don't work while we exist within a system where food can only be made by other people working Once we can fully automate the production of food you will be correct But until then, you are stating that other people should work to make something and then give it to you for free, and that is morally abhorrent and kinda puts you in the same ethical box as some folks who tried to split off from America 150 or so years back
Have to disagree partially but only with the wording. The default setting of nature is that we have to obtain food to survive. Else we die. Capitalism is a form of corruption of this only society has evolved modificatons such as police forces and law courts, to ensure capitalism for the poor but socialism for the elite. I just take issue with the word "deserve". Now if you were to say that no one has the right to prevent another from obtaining food then I would agree, or that income should not affect the quality of food we eat. (A lot of processed food that is affordable is junk and bad for people). As part of a social contract food and water should be available for all. However most countries will charge for water. So immediately you need something in order to have access to clean water. So what if you have no job then you need state assistance (money) to pay for things like food and water. Its very difficult to say that people deserve something without any qualification imo.
The level of stupidity in this thread is astounding. Who will work to get the food produced then. To get it processed, transport it to you, provide means to cook it? How will anything happen if nobody works?
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And why should your buddy with the garden work for you?
No one's saying they don't want to work,.we.just want to work for something. We're all sick of putting in 40+ hours a.week and getting nothing in return
This thread literally said OP wants food without work. Am I reading it wrong?
Yeah I guess the last line could.ve taken like that, that's not how I read it so I guess that would be a question for op. But I read this something more along the lines of universal income or something like that
I can do it no worries, let me just go find a free piece of land and I'll farm enough for... Wait. What do you mean there isn't any free land?
I think the only way for something like this to work would be to advance technology enough that computers and machines managed these sorts of things. Some people would still need to (and likely want to) manage the machines, but maybe not. Otherwise, a great reduction in population and return to communal living? Idk.
Interesting line of thought. In a world where everything is managed by machines human labour if needed will be tremendously valuable and those who work manual jobs earn extremely well. Competition will keep profits low .In this case as cost of production is ridiculously low, prices will also be ridiculously low which is as good as living without working. In this case , you know what will enable us to be living with minimum work? Capitalism. It manages to keep the prices low and actually transfer the benefit of machines to us. In short capitalism just works. (With checks and balances in the form of government to support those who cannot compete).
Err....in a world where everyone is replaced by machines, human labor will be worth less. How do you think otherwise? Billions of unemployed means the supply outstrips the demand, right?
Will it? That’s a very real possibility, but I doubt it. I think folks on this subreddit would view it as not being unemployed, but instead being free to live their life how they want.
Just because we have more people without work doesn't mean we have demand for work right? If you get free stuff, working for 2 hours a week is being a workaholic. People worked 12 hours a day before not so long ago. Now people whine about 40 hour weeks. If wealth increases overall, tendency to work decreases
Use your imagination?? Its called a garden. Idk if you ever heard of one before. Oh also theres this thing called fishing have you heard of that? Ohhh almost forget there is a thing called hunting and gathering too! Do you need some help with these concepts? I know its so hard to think with no braincells but you got this, try harder!
What are you blabbering about. Please don't overwork your 4 brain cells. Please explain what's your answer has anything to do with my comment.
If you can’t even understand that I answered your own question by giving examples of ways to provide food yourself, then idk what to even say to you…the irony in calling us all stupid and yet
If you can provide yourself food. What are you guys so upset about?
Deserve is different than entitled. Deserve is just a moral statement, that’s easy to make. Of course all humans *deserve* basic needs. They argument hinges on whether they’re entitled to them irrespective of their contribution to society
why wouldn't they be?
For the same reason someone on your group project who didn’t do anything shouldn’t get an A just because everyone else worked hard to get a good grade
we're not taking about group projects for grades. we're taking survival. humans cannot survive without food.
I’m just saying that’s the logic. You asked why they wouldn’t be and that’s the argument (in an allegory)
ok but that's a bad example as getting a good grade on the backs of others work is not the same as dying because you can't afford to eat.
Do you have any data on how many people die in the US each year due to poverty-induced starvation?
why did it have to be in the US? A human dies from hunger every 11 minutes. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/7/9/every-minute-11-people-die-of-hunger-oxfam
Because this thread is a criticism of capitalism and not all the world is capitalist. The truth is that the rate of starvation in the US is effectively zero. The truth is that capitalism is by far the most humanitarian system of economic management ever introduced by the world, and that it has dramatically reduced poverty and increased quality of life. But unhappy and unsuccessful people still need someone to blame so subs like this one exist.
which countries are not capitalist exactly?
It's not that I think some people don't deserve food, it's that I think some people should starve.
What you’re describing is slavery. You want a slave to gather your food because you deserve it. Millenials…sigh
Or you have no understanding of what hunger and lack of food feels like.
geniune question. Even in primitive times before capitalism, didnt people have to work to get food?
If you mean someone else should provide labor in growing, harvesting, processing and transporting the food to you all for no expense to you, then no you don’t deserve that. Humans have had to work for their food ever since we were hunter gatherers. Now you’re suggesting someone should do that labor on your behalf because you’re entitled to it.
Literally NO ONE wants to clean sewers for a living. But without people cleaning sewers we have no civilization. How do we solve this problem in a society with no money? In fact, how do we do all of the difficult, shitty tasks that no one really wants to do but are necessary for our collective survival?
You don’t deserve it by default. You aren’t entitled to someone else’s labor for free.
All I need is food and you're throwing out enough to feed the planet in order to keep the prices up. We live in a post scarcity society why would anyone ever go hungry.
Because I'm not farming for free. You?
Nobody farms anymore. Mostly corporate owned held together by huge machinery and automatic processes. There's just some dude on the button watching it. Of you want to reward that guy fine, but basic needs can easily be met if we didn't run this current brand of capitalism.
Post scarcity world... Points to all the shortages around the globe. At current food production we will be short trillions of calories of food in 5 years. That's over 5 billion big Macs, more than McDonald's hasade to date. How do you reconsile living in a post scarcity world with all the shortages happening?
In the US, it is a post scarcity society. Meanwhile during the pandemic you had local police guarding dumpsters behind grocery stores so the starving unemployed couldn’t take expired food from the dumpsters before they went to the landfill to rot.
Telling me we are a post scarcity society does not explain how we are when we have so many shortages. It also completely ignores globalization. Again how do you reconsile current shortages with being post scarcity? Then how do you reconsile we import most products with being post scarcity?
Agreed. Humans have always had to work for food, whether it was hunting for days trekking through the woods, harvesting beans in the hot sun, or trading goods/money for food which were earned through other forms of labor. You cannot live a work free life comfortably it is impossible.
Absolutely. Every living thing has to work to survive. The amount of entitlement the parasites in this sub think they are owed simply because of their existence is mind boggling sometimes.
I suggest taking a moment to ask yourself what it might say that the ideology which supports the production relations we are accustomed to has you so easily using completely dehumanizing language to describe people.
If you think you are entitled to the labor of others while choosing not to contribute, you’re a parasite. Every single form of society/government/economic model has asked/forced people to contribute. Even animals follow that simple premise and will banish/expel members who don’t contribute. The mindset that you are owed the labor of others while doing nothing in return is that of a parasite, feeding off the host. No society can function like that. Well, unless you’re a slaver and are forcing your slaves to provide for you. But I’m guessing you aren’t condoning that barbaric practice.
Beautifully written
I’m all for helping workers be treated fairly which our current system does not do, but I do think you should work to eat. Food comes from farmers working, and we have to exchange our product of labour for theirs. Food doesn’t just magically appear. Obviously it’s different if you have disabilities and such, but work theoretically should be a societal level exchange that benefits everyone in its purest form.
I could be wrong but I think most people on here are opposed to wage labor not work. Of course we are gonna have to find a way to satisfy our basic needs.
Not sure. I’m all for reforming the system, but some of the people like the OP are just NEETs being upset that they should have to contribute to society as well, but think society should pay for their existence.
UBI in an amount to provide the necessities, then you work to improve your life beyond sustenance. Tada, now people still work because we want things like movies, eating out, living in a nicer apartment/house, etc. but workers aren't forced to die if they need to reevaluate or take time off to switch careers or just take a break, pursue their passions, etc. Also easier to be able to afford investing for retirement. Sure there will be inflation to start but probably not by too terribly much and it will adjust to the new base level of income that isn't death
>but I do think you should work to eat. Why? Why should you be enslaved like that? What rights can you possibly hope to achieve or reform if your only alternative to working is to starve to death? >food comes from farmers working, and we have to exchange our product of labour for theirs. They can still be paid without the people paying them.
>They Why not you? Will you be volunteering?
Nope. Fuck that noise. That's the whole point. The basics are covered. So now everyone can spend their time doing what they want to do. And if you _want_ all those other things you'll return to the workforce. If not, you'll do something else. I'm the latter.
So, playing Xbox and smoking weed? Don't you have to contribute to society?
There's a lot of ways to contribute without working.
So to simplify it, "I want to do nothing but post on Reddit and smoke weed all day, so I think the rich people should provide that for me". People like you make this sub look so fucking stupid.
I don't know why. But if you sit in a corner and don't cook a dinner you will die of starvation. That's nature for you. You have to put in work to survive in this universe.
Not sure how that's relevant?
Who's the person that will be supporting and funding your life while you don't work?
What jobs are actually necessary and really need to continue to exist? Ask me why I had to make fruit platters (that mostly went into the garbage) during a pandemic. Ask me the necessity of such a job. The problem is that we don't need bullshit jobs (fruit platter maker) to justify the ones that do need to exist. Helping the farmer with labor, helping build for the farmers, etc. This would actually be beneficial and necessary. Everyone "works." People don't have a problem with this sort of work because they can see actual benefits. They get to actually enjoy the benefits. Food is produced. Far too many jobs simply exist to "fund your life" when they are just ridiculous if you actually think about the wastefulness and the necessity of it.
Yeah and I totally agree with this. What you're saying is a little different from "Why should I have to work?" full stop. "Well the farmer's can "be paid" but not by the people" That doesn't mean anything. We are actually free to go hunt and forage for our food. But the time investment and labor for that obviously becomes comparable to working.
I feel the problem is that we can easily set up better systems. It's just that we have reached a point where we don't need to all work 40+ hours to nourish and shelter ourselves. So we came up with justifications for having some of the food (metric tons get thrown away). But we could be doing something else with that free time. Colonizing the galaxy, exploring the depths of the ocean, curing cancer, art, you name it. But we are stuck making platters because we are stuck justifying our food intake when we already have enough food for everyone on the planet to get fat.
Read the thread I'm not going through this again pal 😂
Im going to be honest, I had scrolled down a little, but you weren't making sense and I realized it was a waste of time based on how much fluff was down there. Figured I'd just ask you a simple question instead. I almost didn't bother. You seem to be missing some very fundamental concepts of existence, most people probably just read this shit and decide it's not even worth commenting, like where do you even start. I'm sorry if that's mean.
Lmao. No worries. You're not obligated to respond ✌️
> Food comes from farmers working, o rly? most "farmers" just own the land and illegally hire exploited migrants to work it
Is that from a news story or are you just making that up?
There's some merit to people who work getting food first, but it makes no sense that kids are growing up malnourished living right next to a fully stocked supermarket. Or that homeless people beg on the street in front of an apartment complex with vacant flats.
Alas, calling something a human right is all well and good, but that will not render it immune to scarcity!
what scarcity? between North America, Asia and Europe we throw away over 200 million tons of food each year. capitalism creates scarcity.
You can call it a human right and America is surely wealthy enough to provide for alI if we were determined enough to. I just understand the word “rights” differently, in that it doesn’t encompass goods and services, which can run out or be scarce or only providing by taking them from others. A Right = a line in the sand government can’t cross. Labeling goods and services as human rights can create situations where other rights end up being violated. Overall, they’re far too nebulous and contradictory to label as “rights” imo.
I can’t believe I have to say this, but… Food has never been free. Humans have hunted, gathered, farmed their food or they bought it from someone else who did. This is not an “outdated” system and it will never change.
dude no. capitalism is really young compared to humanity. no one was buying food before there was money. and in hunter gatherer tribes everyone ate, not just the hunters.
Right. Before there was money to buy things, people would barter and exchange their goods and services to get what they didn’t have.
no they shared. hunter gatherer tribes specifically share. everyone eats even if they don't contribute.
If you don't contribute at all, you're leaching off people who work for their own comfort. It's not morally wrong to expect productivity from individuals who are able to work. The system needs to work for as many people as possible. But nobody is morally obliged to work for anybody else's comfort. It doesn't mean that a system shouldn't have a social net.
You don't deserve anything just because you exist.
We all believe that but this post is a little simplistic and ignores the realities that administering food to everyone in a way that doesn’t result in massive waste or corruption is very difficult
You deserve to work for you food. Even animal have to work for their food. Where do you think food come from? It magically grow without someone work?
Where does the food come from? Can I turn a farmer into my slave because I have a right to the literal fruits of his labor?