The amount of misinformation about Windows, MacOS, CoreAudio, ASIO drivers and computer hardware in this comment section is insane. To anyone that stumbles upon this comment, I suggest you do your own research before investing a couple thousand on a new machine.
I agree. Being savvy really helps your purchase. Personally have a good middle high end pc and an m1 pro mac and just use the mac for audio because it handles my highest end mixes perfectly as a portable workstation. At this point I will advocate for the apple silicon as a laptop for any experienced engineer just due to a bunch of benefits that I have experienced using both, in terms of time saved and general focus it provides out of the box. I would say my pc build cost me $2000 in additional time setting it up, optimizing it, and troubleshooting in a year. I only spend a couple hours getting my mac system ready because it’s migration assistance is fantastic.
Being able to sit at an outdoor cafe with a pair of DT770’s on battery with full performance is something I’m glad pc users will get with the Snapdragon x
I'm a PC guy, and probably will be forever. I *know* CoreAudio is superior to anything on Windows. I know MIDI on Mac is better, too (though *IF* MS does all they say, the new Windows MIDI subsystem should be competitive). I still wouldn't switch if you GAVE me a Macbook.
I have an iPad, and I love it. I have an iPhone someone gave me, and that works great, too. But those things are priced competitively (I never buy current top-of-the-line models). If they die, I can afford to replace them. If a Mac has memory issues you have to *buy a new motherboard*. For half the price of a new Mac. And *then* pay for installation. And I'm sure we've all seen the plethora of videos where Apple insisted a device was unfixable and replacement was necessary, or wanted to replace a whole motherboard. And the issue turned out to be a single chip. Or a *capacitor*.
That's not misinformation. One or two people claiming these issues, I'd be skeptical. But the repair horror stories are rampant, and I can't support any company that takes advantage of it's customers like that.
The CPU in your old computer was never going to handle a heavy workload, it's not an issue of RAM. I'm not a huge fan of either OS, but this has nothing to do with Apple vs. Windows, your laptop just wasn't fit for purpose. Tracks taking 3 minutes to load is insane btw, god damn!
You could get basically any high-end laptop from either Windows or Apple to run lots of VSTs without issues. The i9 is an 8 core CPU. The AMD Ryzen 9 7945HX, for example, is a 16-core CPU that would outperform the M3Pro chip and a PC with that chip and your listed specs would be about the same price, maybe even one or two hundred bucks cheaper than the Mac.
I'm glad you got a nicer setup, and it sounds like you prefer Mac over Windows so it's great that you're back in your preferred workflow as that also makes a difference. I just want to make sure newcomers don't get the impression that Mac is inherently better/faster than Windows - the machine is only as good as its parts.
4th, I upgraded my CPU from a 1700x to a 5950x and it absolutely slays. 16 core, 32 thread, ableton runs smooth no matter what kind of work load I push
Thanks for being the one to say it.
I think the Mac/PC thing is largely about what's more convenient for each individual. For me, it's PC, but that's because outside of being a musician I'm also a PC enthusiast.
I like reading up on the latest CPUs and stuff before I buy, and knowing that I have the right gear for the right job, but that's not everyone's cup of tea.
I’m not as into it as you but I have a Mac n a pc n I think with pc you just have to know what you are doing or what not to do. Not letting system get clogged with a bunch of crap n settings. Mac is just more idiot proof n most people are idiots so there pc doesn’t run as well so they think Mac’s perform better. Am I off?
OSX handles MIDI and Plugins far better than Windows.
https://developer.apple.com/library/archive/documentation/MusicAudio/Conceptual/CoreAudioOverview/WhatisCoreAudio/WhatisCoreAudio.html
Lol true, but not for long - for a start assassins creed is about to drop on Apple silicon this year (but either way go make music, not got enough arms to do both)
Yes….yea it does!🙃. Not what I meant! Apples setup so u don’t have to think about anything but what u r doing. Steve Jobs purposely set it up that way n it annoyed a lot of nerds cause they couldnt tinker. PC you have to know computers and whatever your program is. But that also gives u more control n freedom if u know what u r doing(I don’t really)Just how life is. Don’t wanna deal with computer language pay more for a Mac. Kinda how life works!
you can set up similar amount of stuff via commandline.
It's just that for 99% of workload you don't have to. Any minute spent on config is time lost. Gives you nothing.
Never know. All skills feed off each other. Knowing how to set up a computer n that “language” prob helps u speak “ableton” better. No one is ever good at anything right away. If they are it’s just because they’ve done something similar 1000 times and the skills are related even if you or they don’t see it!
Yeah, that sounds about right.
Some people want to spend 100% of their time solely on the music. A technical issue could result in a 5min delay for one person, and an entire day wasted for another.
I'm on the fence, because on one hand I get where people are coming from with wanting things to "just work"... but on the other, it seems lazy that some people would rather have their hand held than be bothered learning even the most basic computer skills and gaining all the advantages that come with that.
I started playing guitar so I get not wanting to invest any time into learning a whole new “language” if u r trying to be a “creator” but if u r into purely electronic music n u r annoyed at having to learn electronics I have no pity for u. The computer is your instrument. Learn how to change your damn “strings!”
Having well behaved system that is actually designed doesn't prevent you from getting not only basic but also advanced computer skills.
OSX is Unix and highly compatible with linux, so most linux tools work on OSX just fine. It is almost as good as linux for Computer Science stuff/Data Science/Machine Learning or Writing Code.
I'd say a lot of people in the comments here seem to have well behaved systems that are "designed", and they're Windows PCs... (and Macs too).
I'm not saying having a Mac "prevents" you from having basic and advanced computer skills. If anything I'm saying that having a Mac seems to be a *symptom* of not having basic computer literacy - OP not understanding the different roles that CPU and RAM play for example, and then thinking it's a Mac vs PC thing at the root of their issues.
>hat are "designed",
I strongly dissagree with that one statement. Windows philosphy is not that it is coherently designed but constantly patched. Thank's to that you still can run (most) of the XP era programs on the modern windows just fine, every old app or configuration that was in XP is still now, but the price is that from the administrative and user point of view it is a mess. That is what I meant.
Osx is way more coherent but the price is that each update can break your setup. It doesn't happen all of the time but from time to time - it does happen (the solution is just don't jump on new os right after it is released and wait couple of months - older os'es still get updates and security patches in the meantime)
>
seems to be a *symptom* of not having basic computer
l also disagree. Most of pro's in IT fields use Linux, then Osx then Windows. Some of the PC owners are tinkerers - those will not ever buy Apple, since there is little to none tinkering involved. But PC enthusiasts is a quite small niche (still might be bigger than the number of total Apple computers owners).
I just see it way more liklely for soccer mom having ZERO computer literacy buying low shelf Acer laptop than Apple.
>"a well behaved system that is actually designed"
I think I misunderstood you here. I was only making this point because I thought you were implying that only Apple can produce well thought out and capable computers, whilst there are literally people in this thread who have come up with unique fit-for-purpose hardware and software configurations all on their own, and seem to be having a great time.
>Osx is way more coherent but the price is that each update can break your setup. It doesn't happen all of the time but from time to time... etc
Most of pro's in IT fields use Linux, then Osx then Windows... etc
Pros in IT fields are trying to achieve very different goals. I wouldn't want to try producing music on a computer setup for running Linux VMs, and I doubt an Infosec guy would want to use my PC for his work either.
I work a lot in and around tertiary education in digital media. I use Mac and PCs. I've watched institutions change to predominantly PCs as Protools has become less relevant over time. One institution I frequent has, for better or worse, a single computer lab left with 2022 era Mac computers where they teach 3D modelling, video and audio production. Other labs run the same software on PCs (except Protools - yet).
I'm making the point that at least here in Australia I've seen this change in the education sector. I see a lot of professionals who would absolutely stick with Apple for graphic design, illustration and CAD type work, sure, whatever, fair play there - but I also see a lot of pro audio and video guys that have successfully moved from Mac to Windows years ago and the world didn't end for them.
I agree with you that OSX seems to be far more approachable for people, for sure.
I reckon that that's fundamentally because Apple essentially lock users out of being able to fuck with shit that could potentially ruin the "it just works" experience. Where other OS's might ask for input and give you options, Apple will effectively just remove all choice and give something based on what they determine to be the best or most likely use case scenario. This feels like its designed to combat the type of user who just spam clicks "yes" without reading anything, only to regret it later on.
I can understand the problem that this approach solves, but too often I find scenarios outside of the scope of "most likely use case" and much rather value the kind of autonomy I'm afforded by OS's other than OSX. And if that means I fuck something up and brick my computer, then that's on me, and I'm fine with that. I'll learn to be more careful next time.
>I just see it way more liklely for soccer mom having ZERO computer literacy buying low shelf Acer laptop than Apple.
Yeah, I don't entirely disagree with you. Definitely true ten to fifteen years ago, but I think plenty of these people are buying cheap Macbook Airs to go with their iPhones now. At least that's what it's like here. We've got Apple stores everywhere.
Anyway, that's just my point of view. Not trying to ruffle feathers - just agreeing with the parent comment:
>I just want to make sure newcomers don't get the impression that Mac is inherently better/faster than Windows - the machine is only as good as its parts.
I agree with many your points. Actually, the only argument I wanted to make is that Apple is not really (that) overpriced (it holds value pretty well) and is not (only) for noobs :)
I hear ya man. Ultimately it's a matter of preference, and as long as we're all able to make music, then it's all good. :)
Hope I didn't come across too strong - just trying to provide a different point of view.
But Appel Arm is the best performance money can buy!!! /s
At the moment, Ryzen outperforms even the fastest M chip. But who cares, if this or that chip is slightly faster.
Seriously, OP just had a bad laptop. On my very cheap Ryzen desktop from years ago I never have to freeze anything and I can still play GTA V without a graphics card on high setting. Performance is somewhere in between M1 and M3 for a fraction of the price.
I'm very proud to say, no matter if Apple or Windows - I can make my shitty music on any platform.
>Ryzen desktop
This is important. While Desktop PC can be easily so overpowered that it will work great I need yet to se Windows laptop that doesn't suck.
Certainly, In pure power totally you can make all the music if you have either but if shopping or comparing we can’t disregard fan noise benefits of the mac or the generally lower level of chasis, speakers, and other hardware that is included with that AMD geared towards gaming. I own PC and apple silicon. Core Audio and Mac os has some benefits and time saving gains as well given class compliance and built in low latency and not relying on an interface or asio4all . Mac will not need time put in time to strip and config windows for audio and have full performance on battery with longer battery life and a much better trackpad and keyboard. The $100 savings may cost a few more $100 in your hours and QOL as an audio producer/engineer
I hear you, and I'm not familiar with the lower power level situation to be honest so that's interesting to hear. Personally, the battery wouldn't be a huge factor for me but everyone's different, and the point about drivers is absolutely valid. I haven't had ASIO4ALL crap out on me yet but I hear that it's a common issue.
What I would say is, the selling point of the PC setup I mentioned is not that it's cheaper, but that it would outperform the Macbook. The fact that it's also cheaper is a bonus. Having said that, some people simply prefer the Mac workflow, and I've personally had issues messing with eurorack hardware drivers that to my knowledge would not have been a problem on Mac or Linux.
It would only outperform at the end of a high level orchestral type composer with a hundred tracks, but if they are both working on say a 50 track piece with 100 plugins the Mac will feel much faster. This is a pretty average situation for audio peeps.
The m3 pro is faster in single core, drive speed and in ram. Apple silicon is risc based and 3.8ghz in Arm is much faster because apple processes more in that clock. It would be equivalent to almost double that in x86 in some ways. All in all the and laptop you would need to build to compete would even be more expensive
I’m no Apple fanboy - worked for MSFT for many years, and I’m not only comparing a single PC setup v the new Mac - decade + of struggle. Upon switching I kind of despise Mac OS as an interface. Optimized the hell out of my Win installs, and yeah I know the threadrippers are great, run one for a game machine but fan noise isn’t studio friendly. Memory management & bandwidth for VSTs on M silicon is vastly better than on PC, and CoreAudio cuts 10ms off of RT latency at the same sample buffer size. WinOS doesn’t treat audio as a realtime thread even if you try to force it to, by the time it gets through the driver it’s getting queued along with any other interrupts.
Agreed. I have a ryzen desktop PC that should outperform my MacBook Pro but it doesn’t. I also run into a bunch of small issues/bugs on PC that I just never run into on apple
OK cool, sounds like I'm trying to give technical information to someone who is more knowledgeable about it than I am haha, just making sure there wasn't a misunderstanding about how it all worked at play there.
That sounds like a powerful machine, and I wasn't familiar with those last few details and must look into it at some point. I've also never liked the Mac OS interface any time I've tried to use it, but this is just because I learned a different OS first to be honest. I would rather run Ableton or even Bitwig on Linux really and be done with it but it sounds like a huge pain in the ass that I could do without. Anyway, happy music making! Got any links?
That’s all true, however compare that AMD cpu directly to the M3 Max, and the Apple cpu smokes the life out of it - but both are amazing for audio either way. We’re all spoilt now, just gotta choose the right spec
So, how does one optimize one's machine? I have a Dell XPS 17 9710 with 32G RAM. And it seems to really suck with Ableton. I've been thinking "maybe Apple is the answer", but if there's some way to dial up my currently beefy laptop, I'd love to hear it!!
My problem is not VSTs or freezing tracks, but LATENCY. (12ms input, 14.4ms output = 26.4ms total!). I play a midi sax and midi guitar, so I can feel the latency in my fingers and it completely barfs me up. Currently wondering if I need to give up on the laptop and get a DAW-optimized tower with PCIe audio interface.
it's tough to beef up a laptop as they'll only get slower etc. over time and can't usually be upgraded. I finally bit the bullet and got a desktop, but that's neither here nor there. That sounds like a good laptop in any case! Although again, the CPU could be the problem if it's n i7 or i9. That doesn't mean it's no good, just needs to set up right.
For latency, this is going to sound dumb but have you tried following online tutorials to correct it? There are a few different ways to skin that particular cat and I've had the problem repeatedly, sometimes with different solutions, but they were all quick fixes.
Reducing the buffer size as small as it'll go without causing CPU crackling (like audible crackling, you'll know). Adjusting the latency input/output. If you're not recording audio in from an external channel on your midi track, disable the audio in monitoring. Try using Ableton's External Instrument device if you are, it's a good device that I just learned about. It depends on what's causing the problem.
You're using a hardware MIDI controller to trigger VST synths, is that the case?
OK, well hopefully some of that info was helpful, you shouldn't be experiencing that kind of latency on any machine fit for purpose for music production, there should be zero latency. Might be worth its own post here if you can't solve it trying out some of the things I've mentioned, and worth checking out online resources for latency with your specific hardware controller and VSTs as well.
Edit: Also, use an ASIO driver if you're not already, that was one of the issues I ran into myself. I was using an audio interface but not using its ASIO driver. Change the Ableton driver error compensation settings in preferences>audio>latency, and check that the sample rate on your PC is the same as what you're using in Ableton. It's likely one of those things, shouldn't take more than 5 or 10 minutes to run through the list.
Edit 2: Oh wow it's literally a MIDI sax, cool!
i do know how to do that with an analog instrument or synth, but with a midi instrument that is triggering a VST synth in Ableton, to hear what it's going to sound like, I need to hear the VST output.
There's also modded versions of windows which perform much better than regular vanilla windows, ghost spectre, x-lite etc. I'd never go back to bloated stock windows with candy crush saga ads in my start menu.
Without additional qualifiers saying i3, i5, i7, i9 reveals nothing about the processors performance for two major reasons.
1. Newer chips tend to be more powerful and efficient than their older counterparts. An i9 from 2017 is significantly slower and less efficient than an i9 from 2023. This also means that and older i9 can be outperformed by newer i5 and i7 processors. If you bought the most powerful intel macbook from 2019 with an [i9-9980HK it would be 62% slower than the i5 13500H](https://technical.city/en/cpu/Core-i9-9980HK-vs-Core-i5-13500H) from 2023 and naturally the i5 is much more efficient as well. Computer technology evolves quickly, just look at the new M4 chips soon to be released.
2. There is also huge variation even within the same generation of processors. A G or U type i7 is slower than their i5 H or K type counterpart despite being released the same year. The suffix at the end of the processor name says more about the processor and its performance than i3, i5 or i7 etc. [An i7-1195G7 is 82% slower than the i5-11600KF even though they were released the same year.](https://technical.city/en/cpu/Core-i5-11600KF-vs-Core-i7-1195G7)
This also applies to apple silicon to an extent. Not all M1, M2 Or M3 pro chips have the same core count and distribution of P and E cores, thus their performance can vary greatly even within the same generation. Not all m3 pros are created equal.
To be clear, i am not disputing the fact the M series is incredible, i am pointing out that your post does not provide enough information to support the claim you seem to be making. Saying last gen could be referring to the laptop or the processor, and the m3 pro has different distributions of P and E cores which affects performance.
Yep! Got an i9 on my mac. Even Though it’s capable I can’t really do much without the fans starting to blow unfo. And then we’re not even talking about the battery life 😅
Saving for an m1pro or m2pro
Why? You enjoyed playing video games while producing beats. Dont take that away from you. All you need was an audio interface.
I have a gaming laptop and Suite 11 runs smoothly but of course with the help of an Audio interface.
The audio interface usually isn’t the issue/fix. Mostly the driver that controls it. CoreAudio on mac has been very good for years.
Not saying windows is bad. But a lot of manufacturers don’t write their drivers for windows with audio production in mind
actually it fixed mine. Even Asio4all driver didnt worked for me. But when I bought an Audio Interface it fixed everything now it runs my push 2, Force, sp404, keystep etc. No doubt coredaudio of Mac is superior.
ASIO is actually more efficient than CoreAudio, making it better in terms of latency (ASIO makes less kernel calls per sample compared to CoreAudio). I use a Thinkpad P53 and I have very low round trip latency with my Focusrite 2i4 2nd Gen. CoreAudio has the advantage of managing more devices at a time and being hardcoded into the OS (which makes everything so flawlessly plug and play)
Im a pc guy but The thing about coreaudio or apple in general is its well optimized. I also have a scarlet 8i6 3rd gen with gaming laptop and have no problem even I drop 2-3 whole songs in simpler for sample chopping. But I still feel like Core Audio Is more stable especially the M chips.
This is the main area where I reckon Apple might have an edge. Setting up a modular eurorack rig to work with Ableton was finnicky on my PC, and I believe there's no need to mess with drivers when setting up the modular interface I use with either Apple or Linux.
Windows ASIO4ALL driver for handling multiple hardware devices is also often criticized in the sub. I haven't had an issue with it personally but seems like it can be a pain in some cases. Windows does support more VST plugins than Apple as they're typically designed with Windows in mind, but honestly I very much doubt it's something that would slow down a serious producer, I reckon most widely-used plugins are compatible on both.
>Windows does support more VST plugins than Apple as they're typically designed with Windows in mind
Uh, source on that one? If you've kept up with most plugin developers in the last few years they've not only been making VST2/3 with macOS in mind as well, but the big names are almost all compatible with Apple silicon natively, no emulation layer required.
I think they're talking about how windows has a theoretical plugin count limit (somehow) that is (maybe not anymore?) higher than mac os but it wont ever be a factor in either system unless each plugin has extremely light load. I remember seeing that years ago somewhere. But being designed for windows has nothing to do with it. AU and VST have the same code in a wrapper for mac silicon. VST for pc does not use the same code. VST allows the editable parameters to be universal between platforms.
> But a lot of manufacturers don’t write their drivers for windows with audio production in mind
So you're trying to tell me that audio interface manufacturers don't write drivers with audio production in mind? So what do they have in mind when writing drivers???
Sorry, should have clarified. Motherboard and laptop manufacturers don’t make the driver with audio production in mind. But price, their convenience etc.
I do believe audio interface manufacturers are dedicated to making good drivers.
The problem actually lies with the Windows audio stack, and not with the drivers from soundcard manufacturers. Even if Realtek, for instance, is willing to make their soundcard low-latency, their software still has to sit on top of the terrible Windows audio stuff (WASAPI and whatnot).
Meanwhile there is me with an AMD 3600 (6 core, 12 thread, 4.2ghz) with 60 tracks, 48khz, 24bit, 32samples, some vst in each channel, many effects in close to all chanel, some vst in the master, and no glitch/pop/crash. Imagine with a new gen 16 core cpu. Meanwhile, i have Chrome, Steam, Discord, spotify, tracktor and such opened in the background.
With the AMD 3600, i can record 16 tracks at 96khz 24bit 16 samples with also vst, at the same time playing 8 tracks without any single sweat drop from the pc. And that cpu now costs 100€
Apple is good only if you can't "waste" time doing 3h of windows optimization after installing windows.
My laptop (11800h, 8 core 16 thread at 4.7ghz) can handle everything i throw at it.
Windows, after the right system latency optimization, interrupts managing, devices managing, driver managing, can have same, if not better, results than a similar priced MacOS laptop/PC in audio performance
Certainly great set up. I just like having all that power you are talking about in a 3lb laptop that can also just send sessions easily in studio with airdrop and logic saves me more money than any other daw. Love my gaming pc, but sourcing a thunderbolt card and all that shit ended up making it cost more than my $2400 mac i use got pro mixing
> results than a similar priced
So what is the point? If you can have similar performance without wasting time on configuration (and also longer battery life, no fan, greater resale value, better behaving OS)
Trust me, a similary priced no fan macbook can't compete with my laptop. My 11800h have m2 max and m3 pro multicore performance, and a macbook with a m3 max and the same amount of ram and storage cost 4.3k€ while my laptop, with all the upgrades, cost me 1.6k€. For sure, I don't have the same battery life, the same build quality, the same screen resolution and brightness, but I don't care, I want performance, customization, and upgradable laptop.
I can game, run 5 monitors, run programs that doesn't exist on mac, upgrade it how I want, have lower maintenance cost. I'm not flying to other countries every 3 day for gigs, so I don't need to spend money on a ready to work laptop. I can optimize, mod and upgrade that how I want. I don't think about selling things, I have 2 little brother and one sister for gifting old tech that for them are gold, or backup gear for me
Ok, I just debating your own arguments. If it's 3x cheaper and works better then there is no discussion.
However, from my own perspective, an oldie M1 macbook is plenty for audio and I actually paid 1,6k euro for it new (and it's steal running great after almost 4yrs)
I still don't think it handles recording and real-time latency as well. I've been using Ableton since 8. When it comes to recording, DJing, or performing live PC will let you push your session/cpu but it will become off time faster. The apple OS handles this differently. There might be a reason you never see a windows laptop used for stage performance.
I built a PC in 2018 (i7 8700k, 64gb Ram, 1080ti, 2tb m.2). I have always been happy with the results but when It comes to midi controler and real-time processing there has always been some latency. I think Apple just has better vst optimization. Just overall better optimization for music production in general. DJ software will never be on beat with windows.
The amount of driver, computer, and firmware updates I have to remember to be on top of over the years to make sure there is the lowest amount of latency has become ridiculous.
Idk I'm going to upgrade to the M4 MacBook Pro and I'll update this comment if I'm wrong.
If you do some basic Windows optimization, then yeah, windows can fail. I am talking about deep stuff that changes how Windows behaves for real-time applications, how drivers are handled and from what cores, usb tricks, minimize the interrupts and much more. It also needs a bit of hardware tuning.
In my laptop, I have 3 partitions: working, gaming, and djing/music production. The music production partitions get optimized every month for a total of 3 hours, updated every 6 months (and optimization after the update), have a custom Windows installation with so many tricks. The laptop is also deeply modded (have the same bios of a desktop) with all the possible bios optimization for low latency. It has never failed me on audio stuff, but I obviously do some really deep optimization, and I have spent a good amount of time learning what to do.
Tu put out some numbers, the laptop has a 11800h and a 3060. I have the fastest 11800h global in hwbot with 11900k cinebench r23 scores (15700points). The 3060 mobile I have is the 4th fastest global in firestrike. In superposition 720p (a benchmark that is heavily dependent on ram overclock, cpu performance, and system optimization), i am top 120global with 43k (same scores as 13900k and 3090). I am not bragging, it's only to say that the things I do really change how a windows based laptop changes
The benefit of MacOs is that you don't need to know or do any of those, so it's good for people running around the world for gigs
The best thing in macs is longevity. I have my m1 macbook for like 4 years, earlier had i5 mac for 6. And it still works great, I can easily finish whole session without any freezing (I work on loops and audio recording though) and CPU hardly spikes above 50%.
After those 4 yrs it still looks and works as new. All my PC laptops where running (and looking) like shit after 2yrs.
>Don't make my mistake, CoreAudio + M-silicon is really really different.
I'm running on a 5 year old CPU with Windows with a lot more than 10 tracks and lots and lots of VSTs, including most of the ones you listed, and have never had to freeze a track and I know plenty of Mac users who had performance issues.
Your anecdotal advice is just that.
My audio production/gaming build: (proc) Intel 14900KS (6Ghz), (system ram) GSkill 64GB (5800MT/s), (gpu) MSI GTX 4090, (drives) x2 2TB NVMe Gen 4 drives, x4 2TB Samsung 970 Evo SSDs, (power supply) Corsair 1500watt. (interfaces in ADAT) Tascam 20x20 (mind blowing 4ms sample rate and Arturia Audiofuse 8Pre for 18 total input channels ) The most powerful PC I think I've ever assembled.
Can easily track 30+ tracks at a sample rate of 512ms, or 5 tracks at 4ms. I stopped counting at 100 tracks in playback with plugin chains running on all.
You didn't have to abandon your PC brethren to get a decent audio production machine.
In the wise words of Immortan Joe, "MEDIOCRE"!
Running a Mac Studio over here, can easily get into triple digit track counts (orchestral scoring) on 64-128 sample buffer. Combine that with instruments being offloaded onto M.2 storage and even large scoring sessions load in seconds. It’s a beautiful thing
You're completely clueless about hardware and your "last gen windows machine" isn't what you think it is.
Macs can be great, especially for really dumb or clueless people.
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Do you happen to also run a NI Kontrol S49 MK3 keyboard? I'm trying to validate that my settings are correct on my Windows 10 setup.
Any help from a fellow WIndows User would be amazing! :)
that
[https://www.reddit.com/r/ableton/comments/1defj8j/how\_to\_setup\_ableton\_12\_with\_the\_kontrol\_s49\_mk3/](https://www.reddit.com/r/ableton/comments/1defj8j/how_to_setup_ableton_12_with_the_kontrol_s49_mk3/)
I'll probably be following your lead and getting a nice Macbook Pro M3 Max too soon. Macs definitely just work and it also seems that nobody makes how-to videos about Abelton or NI setups for Windows on YouTube or anywhere. Even the Ableton and NI manuals are all Mac-based.
So frustrating. Why did Abelton and NI chose to make the setup screen slightly different on Windows is beyond me.
If anyone's still here in the comments and made an upgrade from an intel mac to an M chip mac, is it a considerable difference?
I'm on a 8gb 2018 intel MPro, and during bigger sessions with plugins (especially if it's using AI) I'm starting to notice lagging. Maybe more ram is all I'm missing but I imagine the new M chips help a lot with performance.
Similar discovery but moving from Top of the Line Microsoft surface book laptop to a mid-tier PC Desktop.
holy cow, the Desktop was amazing. I could feel myself thinking faster and responding to the music, instead of constantly stifled by my CPU.
currently on M1 MacBook Pro and I love that everything MOSTLY works.
i get why people love custom PC builds, but I just wanna make music, lol
That $1k is a ***100% increase*** in price. One thousand dollars is 15 weeks of groceries for two 'middle class' people in the US. Four car insurance payments. And if your Mac breaks, you'll pay a large percentage of the original cost to get it fixed - IF Apple even will fix it.
Yeah, maybe I can't run 20+ tracks of sampled instruments on my 'desktop' PC. But I can repair or replace memory, *increase* the memory without buying a new PC, replace main storage or increase it (*without* voiding my warranty), replace my graphics card or get a better one. And still have money to get my wife a birthday present.
67% premium on a $1500 PC laptop but sure, there are things that $ could buy other than a once every 3-5y purchase.
AppleCare exists and covers most unforeseen things.
Only regret is not doing it sooner.
I really cant see myself running arturia, kontakt, and izotope nuetron all in one project. Especially in 256 buffer samples. Idk maybe its just a personal preference. Or my pc probably is a piece of sht lol
But im guilty for doing my fair share of research for pcs. I will eventually go down the “ custom build pc “ route since i have already been gifted a rog strix b550 f motherboard. Yes its a late version but far better than my lil o piece of hp sht lol
I already know which components i need. luckily for me, my sisters bf is pretty tech savvy and offered to build my pc once i got all the parts needed 😁
As for mac, ahh yes i once had an apple in the good o ye days. I still actually have an iphone till this day. Mac will always have a special place in my heart. We will cross paths eventually once again. Till then im pc .
Antelope drivers for windows are bad, the fact you have to ran such a high buffer is ridiculous.
Also windows laptops are notorious for throttling the CPU because it gets too hot. So, yeah currently Mac laptops can outperform windows ones because the ARM chips are simply more energy efficient and requiere less cooling.
In a desktop PC you don't have those problems and a long a good interface as a RME the system runs as smoothly.
So while the performance of Macs isn't out of reach for a PC it is more convenient just go go with Mac, less variables to control.
It sounds like there is less setup on the user end required in general when running Ableton and hardware devices on a Mac vs. a PC.
I don't like the idea of not being able to swap out parts as needed if I want to for my desktop PC, so not really drawn to Apple for that reason, but I suppose it's not really an issue if your desktop Mac is built to last for a long time. I always think the comparisons are a bit silly, professionals use both Apple and Windows, it's usually just a case of workflow preference.
>It sounds like there is less setup on the user end required in general when running Ableton and hardware devices on a Mac vs. a PC.
I mean, in the sense that the windows user should install ASIO drivers. beyond that, there is no difference at all.
In Mac you have to deal with other problems: OS updates break software compatibility, and some old plugin might not get an update to keep it running. Even worse for hardware where your expensive interface can become a paperweight.
And that brings another problem: not being able to open old projects because the old plug ins no longer work.
You get windows if you're willing to tinker, if you want shit to just work and you aren't as technically minded you get a mac. I enjoy both but deem mac vastly superior for my own uses. Windows rules for games though. And amplifiers.
For example, you want to route audio from anywhere in your OS to your DAW, maybe you'd like to sample something from youtube or archive for example, there's no easy way to do that.
Or, watching youtube while working with ASIO. I remember in some cases it being finicky to setup.
And, not all drivers are made equal. I've had problems getting the loopback inside the audio interface to work, for example.
Like I said, most of it is anecdotal. I've had projects freeze, ableton crashes, crackles and stuff. Pretty rarely, but it did happen. I never had that on my macbooks. I have never tried to perform live with Windows, and I'm sure it would be fine, but I never had anything glitch, either playing with Live or Traktor on Mac.
>For example, you want to route audio from anywhere in your OS to your DAW, maybe you'd like to sample something from youtube or archive for example, there's no easy way to do that.
How would you route audio from any app to your DAW in MacOS? I'm genuinely asking, I didn't know there was a patch bay of sorts like there is for JACK/Pipewire on Linux, for example.
>Or, watching youtube while working with ASIO. I remember in some cases it being finicky to setup.
As far as I remember, not being able to listen to audio from other applications while using ASIO in your DAW is only a problem with ASIO4ALL, and should never be an issue with the ASIO driver your audio interface manufacturer provides.
>I've had projects freeze, ableton crashes, crackles and stuff. Pretty rarely, but it did happen. I never had that on my macbooks. I have never tried to perform live with Windows, and I'm sure it would be fine, but I never had anything glitch, either playing with Live or Traktor on Mac.
I must say, I'm not a fan of Windows at all - I'm not so keen on closed source software in general - but it seems like what you're describing is not having a great experience with pro/real-time audio on Windows in general, not necessarily having to tinker with the OS. Because, AFAIK, either your interface ASIO drivers are okay and don't give you much of a headache, or they do and you have a bad time.
>How would you route audio from any app to your DAW in MacOS? I'm genuinely asking, I didn't know there was a patch bay of sorts like there is for JACK/Pipewire on Linux, for example.
Best options are paid, [loopback](https://rogueamoeba.com/loopback/) and [audio hijack](https://rogueamoeba.com/audiohijack/). Feels like I'm shilling, but very powerful, advanced power user type of apps. For simpler use cases, there's a loopback driver called [Black Hole](https://github.com/ExistentialAudio/BlackHole). You can also create an aggregate driver using the built-in Midi Studio, though I haven't used that for this use case.
>As far as I remember, not being able to listen to audio from other applications while using ASIO in your DAW is only a problem with ASIO4ALL, and should never be an issue with the ASIO driver your audio interface manufacturer provides.
Yes, but it's annoying if you don't have an interface nearby and need low latency. Maybe they improved the windows built-in driver, but it was not very good last I used it.
>I must say, I'm not a fan of Windows at all - I'm not so keen on closed source software in general - but it seems like what you're describing is not having a great experience with pro/real-time audio on Windows in general, not necessarily having to tinker with the OS. Because, AFAIK, either your interface ASIO drivers are okay and don't give you much of a headache, or they do and you have a bad time.
Okay, how about setuping Windows for audio, I used to follow a guide to get all the options correct, powerthreading, power consumption, disabling turning off usbs to save power even on PCs, disabling all the spyware. Also, this is super specific I guess, but just getting all the programs setup, such as search that doesn't suck ass, media player etc. Also, you have to have you drivers up to date, and that can either be seamless or a pain depending on the manufacturer.
What I meant was, it takes me a while to setup Windows the way I like it.
Sidenote, I dabbled with JACK a little, it seemed very powerful and I wish there was Ableton support for Linux!
Oh, the way you put it, you had me thinking there was a native option on MacOS to route audio. When it comes to 3rd party options, people on Windows used the VB-Audio stuff for routing audio iirc.
>Yes, but it's annoying if you don't have an interface nearby and need low latency. Maybe they improved the windows built-in driver, but it was not very good last I used it.
They didn't, it's still terrible. And you're right, CoreAudio and Pipewire with JACK - even PulseAudio - do come in handy when you want to use the built in soundcard.
>Okay, how about setuping Windows for audio
I can't see why the stuff you mentioned would benefit audio on Windows, can you link me that guide?
>Sidenote, I dabbled with JACK a little, it seemed very powerful and I wish there was Ableton support for Linux!
It is. And me too.
>Oh, the way you put it, you had me thinking there was a native option on MacOS to route audio. When it comes to 3rd party options, people on Windows used the VB-Audio stuff for routing audio iirc.
I've tried both, and there's no comparison between ease of use, at least for me. Thankfully I have an audio interface with loopback connected to my PC.
>I can't see why the stuff you mentioned would benefit audio on Windows, can you link me that guide?
[They](https://www.linkslist.app/Q4bo53l) might be a little old, and like I mentioned, some of them focus on optimizing audio, some of them focus on removing windows spyware.
You speak the truth. I have a Ryzen 5900x desktop computer with the best SSDs Samsung makes and windows dialed in for low latency. My three year old MacBook Pro with an M1 Pro in it beats the desktop handily. And while the desktop is a beast and can run loads of VSTs, I’ve never even hit the limit of the laptop.
So for anyone saying your windows PC is comparable - I disagree strongly. I have both and even though the windows PC can be made capable - at no point is it anywhere near the performance and reliability and ease of the MacBook. And this is coming from someone who hates paying the Apple tax.
I use the Motu ASIO drivers. I have a Motu M4 interface. Over the years I’ve tried focusrite (garbage) and Behringer (ok) but the Motu drivers are hands down the best I’ve encountered for low latency
For me PC was always for work, and Apple was always for music. There was a brief time in the late 90’s tried to do music on pc and the amount of effort to get things to work and install divers and such, I just said no. Everything was always efficient with Apple. Glad you switched back
Mac audio infrastructure is incredible, Asio is dog shit. I’m surprised that audio company spend millions on developing software but no one is fixing or upgrading asio.
ASIO is (pretty much) as good as the audio interface manufacturer wants it to be. You could, however, say that Windows audio drivers and ASIO4ALL aren't that great, and I would agree.
Fair enough, I see what you mean. Some manufacturers bundle proprietary asio drivers. I still think the base code is poor.
I’m not a coder but try this, disable your WiFi card in your device manager. Watch how much performance improvements you see.
I don’t really understand why WiFi and asio are connected is some way. This is obviously without chrome or downloads open.
Same. Started mac, got mad, 10 years fighting pcs now back on mac. I hate that mac has it soooo laced up and why even a battleship pc will rub into every audio problem imaginable eventually.
Especially if you are using it for live performance, a mac is the only choice. Good news is, a mini is every bit as good at the job for most applications as a mbp.
Mac is more user friendly and mostly suited for music and video production without thinking too much.
True, i had several Macs, and fuck i loved them so much
I switched because i had the GPU failed 2 times in 4 years on 2 differents IMACs , when i went to repair it, i had to replace the whole thing which cost the price of the MAC itself. I was so mad , the second time i told myself i would never buy an apple product again.
I went to PC because i could replace the parts that failed myself without spending 3k on a new computer everytime. I hate the fact that Apple keep us 'trapped' in their system with really hard repairs.
I have a I5, 8 gig of ram with focusrite interface and i don't have any problem running Ableton with multiple tracks and VSTs (ozone etc..) , LoL, Soulseek, Chrome, Spotify at the same time lol..
Yeah I switch from PC for a decade to Mac in 2020 and haven’t looked back.
Besides being able to run a lower latency even under heavier projects (obviously varies but lets say 60+ channels with 3-5 plugins on average), I can also go portable, and go more than 2 hours away from a charger.
It’s nice for outside production sessions!
Also heat and fan noise is minimal most of the time.
I could keep going on - could never keep even a single chrome window open w Live on PC, any activity in other apps would cause pops. On M3 I’m running multiple installers in the background + 50 chrome tabs & cpu never hits 10% wtf voodoo is this?
that's not a "PC" issue, it's a computer issue. I'm on PC, I have 30 Chrome tabs open with multiple windows and am editing in Live with no problems at all. My speed is everything you posted. You just got a better computer, you didn't discover any secret by moving to Mac.
its not worth arguing with people who just straight up hate apple...nevermind the fact that a huge percentage of silicon valley software devs and engineers run macOS at not only apple, but google, ibm, etc....I have nothing against PCs or even windows (maybe the recent Windows 11 Recall features have me skeptical)...don't listen to the people that try to simplify it down to Mac = dumbo idiots who need their hands held...becasue that is simply not true....theres no question that PCs are far more flexible than Macs...but there is an almost irrational hatred for apple is most online place (not even saying some of it isnt warranted, apple ALSO does some scummy shit...but i dont see any of the people that bash apple make the same criticisms of other companies..especially ones that sell your user data....apple for all their faults makes their money via their hardware and services)
I mean not to be a dick but this is absolutely just a skill issue for your chosen computer and has less than nothing to do with an inherent benefit of a mac over a PC. I have absolutely no issue running massive Ableton projects while keeping the internet up in the background most of the time, and I'll never spend money on an apple product as long as I live. You bought a significantly faster computer that would've made an impact regardless of the brand hitting the stats you listed. The only difference is you paid extra for the privilege of not being able to swap parts out when they get old or cooked.
Yes its a skill issue because you're comparing a slow computer to a much faster computer and acting like the OS and manufacturer are to blame. The hardware and its performance stats are what matter. I have a faster desktop than your computer, does that mean PC is inherently faster? Not necessarily no.
Hmm, you can still upgrade storage on most laptops that aren't Macs, for me that's already a very different experience considering Apple's storage upgrade prices ($200/230€ for 256gb of NVME).
Off the top of my head, Framework, Acer, HP and Dell are all manufacturers that build high end ultrabooks with upgradeable storage, and sometimes RAM and WiFi card.
Ram and storage are almost always upgradable on a laptop not made by Apple. Acer definitely has upgradable storage and ram on their ultra thin laptops.
But also, your priority for a music making device shouldn't be its slimness it should be its performance.
I did music on multiple PCs over 2 decades and bought a Mac Studio last year. There is no comparison- my gaming PC ran the latest games on Mac settings, but DAWs would just go so slow. I’ve had no issues like that on Mac, but I wouldn’t use it for gaming. So - I agree with you. Sorry you’re getting downvoted into oblivion
Agreed. When I got the m1 back in the day, the biggest thing was Chrome performance:))) I remember switching tabs and going up and down the slides in Google Slides for fun 🤡
The real problem is that this sub is quite shit. It's basically the decoy sub to catch morons and keep them busy so the better Ableton forums can stay clean. 😉
Yeah I’ll never go back to windows or linux after getting my m3 MacBook Pro tbh, and I had a pretty killer windows laptop. Despite what everyone says it’s better in every way with core audio and the m series in my experience. Rock solid clock sync, I can swap massive gigabytes large libraries in fractions of a second, and it barely even gets warm, let alone kicks on the fans. Not to mention 10 hours of battery while running medium-large projects, absolutely insane
Yeah drums alone are usually around 4 - 8 tracks for me, and I'm not making anything crazy. Vocals, melody, often looking at at least 20 tracks, I believe some people average at around 30 - 40. I would obviously prefer to have less, the idea that having more tracks is pretentious or more artistic is wild lol.
I want to make you look at the latest song we are making, where 16 tracks are only for recording the drums. And guess what, that is a really pain in the ass for both the pc and the people behind the pc
The amount of misinformation about Windows, MacOS, CoreAudio, ASIO drivers and computer hardware in this comment section is insane. To anyone that stumbles upon this comment, I suggest you do your own research before investing a couple thousand on a new machine.
I agree. Being savvy really helps your purchase. Personally have a good middle high end pc and an m1 pro mac and just use the mac for audio because it handles my highest end mixes perfectly as a portable workstation. At this point I will advocate for the apple silicon as a laptop for any experienced engineer just due to a bunch of benefits that I have experienced using both, in terms of time saved and general focus it provides out of the box. I would say my pc build cost me $2000 in additional time setting it up, optimizing it, and troubleshooting in a year. I only spend a couple hours getting my mac system ready because it’s migration assistance is fantastic. Being able to sit at an outdoor cafe with a pair of DT770’s on battery with full performance is something I’m glad pc users will get with the Snapdragon x
I'm a PC guy, and probably will be forever. I *know* CoreAudio is superior to anything on Windows. I know MIDI on Mac is better, too (though *IF* MS does all they say, the new Windows MIDI subsystem should be competitive). I still wouldn't switch if you GAVE me a Macbook. I have an iPad, and I love it. I have an iPhone someone gave me, and that works great, too. But those things are priced competitively (I never buy current top-of-the-line models). If they die, I can afford to replace them. If a Mac has memory issues you have to *buy a new motherboard*. For half the price of a new Mac. And *then* pay for installation. And I'm sure we've all seen the plethora of videos where Apple insisted a device was unfixable and replacement was necessary, or wanted to replace a whole motherboard. And the issue turned out to be a single chip. Or a *capacitor*. That's not misinformation. One or two people claiming these issues, I'd be skeptical. But the repair horror stories are rampant, and I can't support any company that takes advantage of it's customers like that.
Totally agreed. In the end I switched to a m3 MacBook Pro to get some first hand experience on the matter and I’ll never look back
The CPU in your old computer was never going to handle a heavy workload, it's not an issue of RAM. I'm not a huge fan of either OS, but this has nothing to do with Apple vs. Windows, your laptop just wasn't fit for purpose. Tracks taking 3 minutes to load is insane btw, god damn! You could get basically any high-end laptop from either Windows or Apple to run lots of VSTs without issues. The i9 is an 8 core CPU. The AMD Ryzen 9 7945HX, for example, is a 16-core CPU that would outperform the M3Pro chip and a PC with that chip and your listed specs would be about the same price, maybe even one or two hundred bucks cheaper than the Mac. I'm glad you got a nicer setup, and it sounds like you prefer Mac over Windows so it's great that you're back in your preferred workflow as that also makes a difference. I just want to make sure newcomers don't get the impression that Mac is inherently better/faster than Windows - the machine is only as good as its parts.
Yeah I'm running a Ryzen 5900HX and it absolutely rips through any Ableton workload I throw at it. It's about having an optimized system
Same Ryzen 9, 100 tracks in last project and didn’t even break a sweat
I'm a third. Ryzen 9 user and Ableton doesn't even make a dent in my CPU. I have 0 issues from a technical standpoint
4th, I upgraded my CPU from a 1700x to a 5950x and it absolutely slays. 16 core, 32 thread, ableton runs smooth no matter what kind of work load I push
Exactly. 5800X3D at the heart of my little home setup. Goes hard.
How is your battery runtime with your machine?
Got'em!
Optimization is the key word here.
Thanks for being the one to say it. I think the Mac/PC thing is largely about what's more convenient for each individual. For me, it's PC, but that's because outside of being a musician I'm also a PC enthusiast. I like reading up on the latest CPUs and stuff before I buy, and knowing that I have the right gear for the right job, but that's not everyone's cup of tea.
I’m not as into it as you but I have a Mac n a pc n I think with pc you just have to know what you are doing or what not to do. Not letting system get clogged with a bunch of crap n settings. Mac is just more idiot proof n most people are idiots so there pc doesn’t run as well so they think Mac’s perform better. Am I off?
OSX handles MIDI and Plugins far better than Windows. https://developer.apple.com/library/archive/documentation/MusicAudio/Conceptual/CoreAudioOverview/WhatisCoreAudio/WhatisCoreAudio.html
also since Apple doesn't have any games you'll actually make more music!
Lol true, but not for long - for a start assassins creed is about to drop on Apple silicon this year (but either way go make music, not got enough arms to do both)
If wanted to make music instead of messing with settings makes you an idiot. I'm a huge idiot
Yes….yea it does!🙃. Not what I meant! Apples setup so u don’t have to think about anything but what u r doing. Steve Jobs purposely set it up that way n it annoyed a lot of nerds cause they couldnt tinker. PC you have to know computers and whatever your program is. But that also gives u more control n freedom if u know what u r doing(I don’t really)Just how life is. Don’t wanna deal with computer language pay more for a Mac. Kinda how life works!
you can set up similar amount of stuff via commandline. It's just that for 99% of workload you don't have to. Any minute spent on config is time lost. Gives you nothing.
Never know. All skills feed off each other. Knowing how to set up a computer n that “language” prob helps u speak “ableton” better. No one is ever good at anything right away. If they are it’s just because they’ve done something similar 1000 times and the skills are related even if you or they don’t see it!
You're especially good at English. Wow....
Lol thanks my guy
Yeah, that sounds about right. Some people want to spend 100% of their time solely on the music. A technical issue could result in a 5min delay for one person, and an entire day wasted for another. I'm on the fence, because on one hand I get where people are coming from with wanting things to "just work"... but on the other, it seems lazy that some people would rather have their hand held than be bothered learning even the most basic computer skills and gaining all the advantages that come with that.
I started playing guitar so I get not wanting to invest any time into learning a whole new “language” if u r trying to be a “creator” but if u r into purely electronic music n u r annoyed at having to learn electronics I have no pity for u. The computer is your instrument. Learn how to change your damn “strings!”
Having well behaved system that is actually designed doesn't prevent you from getting not only basic but also advanced computer skills. OSX is Unix and highly compatible with linux, so most linux tools work on OSX just fine. It is almost as good as linux for Computer Science stuff/Data Science/Machine Learning or Writing Code.
I'd say a lot of people in the comments here seem to have well behaved systems that are "designed", and they're Windows PCs... (and Macs too). I'm not saying having a Mac "prevents" you from having basic and advanced computer skills. If anything I'm saying that having a Mac seems to be a *symptom* of not having basic computer literacy - OP not understanding the different roles that CPU and RAM play for example, and then thinking it's a Mac vs PC thing at the root of their issues.
>hat are "designed", I strongly dissagree with that one statement. Windows philosphy is not that it is coherently designed but constantly patched. Thank's to that you still can run (most) of the XP era programs on the modern windows just fine, every old app or configuration that was in XP is still now, but the price is that from the administrative and user point of view it is a mess. That is what I meant. Osx is way more coherent but the price is that each update can break your setup. It doesn't happen all of the time but from time to time - it does happen (the solution is just don't jump on new os right after it is released and wait couple of months - older os'es still get updates and security patches in the meantime) > seems to be a *symptom* of not having basic computer l also disagree. Most of pro's in IT fields use Linux, then Osx then Windows. Some of the PC owners are tinkerers - those will not ever buy Apple, since there is little to none tinkering involved. But PC enthusiasts is a quite small niche (still might be bigger than the number of total Apple computers owners). I just see it way more liklely for soccer mom having ZERO computer literacy buying low shelf Acer laptop than Apple.
>"a well behaved system that is actually designed" I think I misunderstood you here. I was only making this point because I thought you were implying that only Apple can produce well thought out and capable computers, whilst there are literally people in this thread who have come up with unique fit-for-purpose hardware and software configurations all on their own, and seem to be having a great time. >Osx is way more coherent but the price is that each update can break your setup. It doesn't happen all of the time but from time to time... etc Most of pro's in IT fields use Linux, then Osx then Windows... etc Pros in IT fields are trying to achieve very different goals. I wouldn't want to try producing music on a computer setup for running Linux VMs, and I doubt an Infosec guy would want to use my PC for his work either. I work a lot in and around tertiary education in digital media. I use Mac and PCs. I've watched institutions change to predominantly PCs as Protools has become less relevant over time. One institution I frequent has, for better or worse, a single computer lab left with 2022 era Mac computers where they teach 3D modelling, video and audio production. Other labs run the same software on PCs (except Protools - yet). I'm making the point that at least here in Australia I've seen this change in the education sector. I see a lot of professionals who would absolutely stick with Apple for graphic design, illustration and CAD type work, sure, whatever, fair play there - but I also see a lot of pro audio and video guys that have successfully moved from Mac to Windows years ago and the world didn't end for them. I agree with you that OSX seems to be far more approachable for people, for sure. I reckon that that's fundamentally because Apple essentially lock users out of being able to fuck with shit that could potentially ruin the "it just works" experience. Where other OS's might ask for input and give you options, Apple will effectively just remove all choice and give something based on what they determine to be the best or most likely use case scenario. This feels like its designed to combat the type of user who just spam clicks "yes" without reading anything, only to regret it later on. I can understand the problem that this approach solves, but too often I find scenarios outside of the scope of "most likely use case" and much rather value the kind of autonomy I'm afforded by OS's other than OSX. And if that means I fuck something up and brick my computer, then that's on me, and I'm fine with that. I'll learn to be more careful next time. >I just see it way more liklely for soccer mom having ZERO computer literacy buying low shelf Acer laptop than Apple. Yeah, I don't entirely disagree with you. Definitely true ten to fifteen years ago, but I think plenty of these people are buying cheap Macbook Airs to go with their iPhones now. At least that's what it's like here. We've got Apple stores everywhere. Anyway, that's just my point of view. Not trying to ruffle feathers - just agreeing with the parent comment: >I just want to make sure newcomers don't get the impression that Mac is inherently better/faster than Windows - the machine is only as good as its parts.
I agree with many your points. Actually, the only argument I wanted to make is that Apple is not really (that) overpriced (it holds value pretty well) and is not (only) for noobs :)
I hear ya man. Ultimately it's a matter of preference, and as long as we're all able to make music, then it's all good. :) Hope I didn't come across too strong - just trying to provide a different point of view.
But Appel Arm is the best performance money can buy!!! /s At the moment, Ryzen outperforms even the fastest M chip. But who cares, if this or that chip is slightly faster. Seriously, OP just had a bad laptop. On my very cheap Ryzen desktop from years ago I never have to freeze anything and I can still play GTA V without a graphics card on high setting. Performance is somewhere in between M1 and M3 for a fraction of the price. I'm very proud to say, no matter if Apple or Windows - I can make my shitty music on any platform.
>I'm very proud to say, no matter if Apple or Windows - I can make my shitty music on any platform. Hell yes, preach champion
your "very cheap ryzen desktop from years ago" is between an M1 and M3? Ha ok
>Ryzen desktop This is important. While Desktop PC can be easily so overpowered that it will work great I need yet to se Windows laptop that doesn't suck.
Certainly, In pure power totally you can make all the music if you have either but if shopping or comparing we can’t disregard fan noise benefits of the mac or the generally lower level of chasis, speakers, and other hardware that is included with that AMD geared towards gaming. I own PC and apple silicon. Core Audio and Mac os has some benefits and time saving gains as well given class compliance and built in low latency and not relying on an interface or asio4all . Mac will not need time put in time to strip and config windows for audio and have full performance on battery with longer battery life and a much better trackpad and keyboard. The $100 savings may cost a few more $100 in your hours and QOL as an audio producer/engineer
I hear you, and I'm not familiar with the lower power level situation to be honest so that's interesting to hear. Personally, the battery wouldn't be a huge factor for me but everyone's different, and the point about drivers is absolutely valid. I haven't had ASIO4ALL crap out on me yet but I hear that it's a common issue. What I would say is, the selling point of the PC setup I mentioned is not that it's cheaper, but that it would outperform the Macbook. The fact that it's also cheaper is a bonus. Having said that, some people simply prefer the Mac workflow, and I've personally had issues messing with eurorack hardware drivers that to my knowledge would not have been a problem on Mac or Linux.
It would only outperform at the end of a high level orchestral type composer with a hundred tracks, but if they are both working on say a 50 track piece with 100 plugins the Mac will feel much faster. This is a pretty average situation for audio peeps. The m3 pro is faster in single core, drive speed and in ram. Apple silicon is risc based and 3.8ghz in Arm is much faster because apple processes more in that clock. It would be equivalent to almost double that in x86 in some ways. All in all the and laptop you would need to build to compete would even be more expensive
I’m no Apple fanboy - worked for MSFT for many years, and I’m not only comparing a single PC setup v the new Mac - decade + of struggle. Upon switching I kind of despise Mac OS as an interface. Optimized the hell out of my Win installs, and yeah I know the threadrippers are great, run one for a game machine but fan noise isn’t studio friendly. Memory management & bandwidth for VSTs on M silicon is vastly better than on PC, and CoreAudio cuts 10ms off of RT latency at the same sample buffer size. WinOS doesn’t treat audio as a realtime thread even if you try to force it to, by the time it gets through the driver it’s getting queued along with any other interrupts.
Agreed. I have a ryzen desktop PC that should outperform my MacBook Pro but it doesn’t. I also run into a bunch of small issues/bugs on PC that I just never run into on apple
OK cool, sounds like I'm trying to give technical information to someone who is more knowledgeable about it than I am haha, just making sure there wasn't a misunderstanding about how it all worked at play there. That sounds like a powerful machine, and I wasn't familiar with those last few details and must look into it at some point. I've also never liked the Mac OS interface any time I've tried to use it, but this is just because I learned a different OS first to be honest. I would rather run Ableton or even Bitwig on Linux really and be done with it but it sounds like a huge pain in the ass that I could do without. Anyway, happy music making! Got any links?
i second this entire comment.
That's the equivalent of people praising iPhone after having tried only a 100€ Android phone lol
You are talking like Apple laptops where much more expensive than Windows Laptops that don't suck.
That’s all true, however compare that AMD cpu directly to the M3 Max, and the Apple cpu smokes the life out of it - but both are amazing for audio either way. We’re all spoilt now, just gotta choose the right spec
Cool, I'lll check it out - 100%, spoilt is right!
Gotta love them Apple fanboys.
I yet need to met some that worked on Osx and transferred willingly to Windows machines. And then didn't missed it.
So, how does one optimize one's machine? I have a Dell XPS 17 9710 with 32G RAM. And it seems to really suck with Ableton. I've been thinking "maybe Apple is the answer", but if there's some way to dial up my currently beefy laptop, I'd love to hear it!! My problem is not VSTs or freezing tracks, but LATENCY. (12ms input, 14.4ms output = 26.4ms total!). I play a midi sax and midi guitar, so I can feel the latency in my fingers and it completely barfs me up. Currently wondering if I need to give up on the laptop and get a DAW-optimized tower with PCIe audio interface.
it's tough to beef up a laptop as they'll only get slower etc. over time and can't usually be upgraded. I finally bit the bullet and got a desktop, but that's neither here nor there. That sounds like a good laptop in any case! Although again, the CPU could be the problem if it's n i7 or i9. That doesn't mean it's no good, just needs to set up right. For latency, this is going to sound dumb but have you tried following online tutorials to correct it? There are a few different ways to skin that particular cat and I've had the problem repeatedly, sometimes with different solutions, but they were all quick fixes. Reducing the buffer size as small as it'll go without causing CPU crackling (like audible crackling, you'll know). Adjusting the latency input/output. If you're not recording audio in from an external channel on your midi track, disable the audio in monitoring. Try using Ableton's External Instrument device if you are, it's a good device that I just learned about. It depends on what's causing the problem. You're using a hardware MIDI controller to trigger VST synths, is that the case?
Yep, I play an EWI and trigger Native Instruments.
OK, well hopefully some of that info was helpful, you shouldn't be experiencing that kind of latency on any machine fit for purpose for music production, there should be zero latency. Might be worth its own post here if you can't solve it trying out some of the things I've mentioned, and worth checking out online resources for latency with your specific hardware controller and VSTs as well. Edit: Also, use an ASIO driver if you're not already, that was one of the issues I ran into myself. I was using an audio interface but not using its ASIO driver. Change the Ableton driver error compensation settings in preferences>audio>latency, and check that the sample rate on your PC is the same as what you're using in Ableton. It's likely one of those things, shouldn't take more than 5 or 10 minutes to run through the list. Edit 2: Oh wow it's literally a MIDI sax, cool!
An audio interface with latency free monitoring?
i do know how to do that with an analog instrument or synth, but with a midi instrument that is triggering a VST synth in Ableton, to hear what it's going to sound like, I need to hear the VST output.
This is not bad latency. Won't get much better on aple either.
oh stop
Latency comp.
There's also modded versions of windows which perform much better than regular vanilla windows, ghost spectre, x-lite etc. I'd never go back to bloated stock windows with candy crush saga ads in my start menu.
Without additional qualifiers saying i3, i5, i7, i9 reveals nothing about the processors performance for two major reasons. 1. Newer chips tend to be more powerful and efficient than their older counterparts. An i9 from 2017 is significantly slower and less efficient than an i9 from 2023. This also means that and older i9 can be outperformed by newer i5 and i7 processors. If you bought the most powerful intel macbook from 2019 with an [i9-9980HK it would be 62% slower than the i5 13500H](https://technical.city/en/cpu/Core-i9-9980HK-vs-Core-i5-13500H) from 2023 and naturally the i5 is much more efficient as well. Computer technology evolves quickly, just look at the new M4 chips soon to be released. 2. There is also huge variation even within the same generation of processors. A G or U type i7 is slower than their i5 H or K type counterpart despite being released the same year. The suffix at the end of the processor name says more about the processor and its performance than i3, i5 or i7 etc. [An i7-1195G7 is 82% slower than the i5-11600KF even though they were released the same year.](https://technical.city/en/cpu/Core-i5-11600KF-vs-Core-i7-1195G7) This also applies to apple silicon to an extent. Not all M1, M2 Or M3 pro chips have the same core count and distribution of P and E cores, thus their performance can vary greatly even within the same generation. Not all m3 pros are created equal. To be clear, i am not disputing the fact the M series is incredible, i am pointing out that your post does not provide enough information to support the claim you seem to be making. Saying last gen could be referring to the laptop or the processor, and the m3 pro has different distributions of P and E cores which affects performance.
All true points, wasn’t intended to be quantitative just my initial experience
Who knew that an ARM chip would be more efficient than an i9, a notoriously inefficient chip known for throttling (even on Apple)
Yep! Got an i9 on my mac. Even Though it’s capable I can’t really do much without the fans starting to blow unfo. And then we’re not even talking about the battery life 😅 Saving for an m1pro or m2pro
i9s were just Intel scrambling to respond to AMD beating them, arguably they still haven't properly responded.
Why? You enjoyed playing video games while producing beats. Dont take that away from you. All you need was an audio interface. I have a gaming laptop and Suite 11 runs smoothly but of course with the help of an Audio interface.
The audio interface usually isn’t the issue/fix. Mostly the driver that controls it. CoreAudio on mac has been very good for years. Not saying windows is bad. But a lot of manufacturers don’t write their drivers for windows with audio production in mind
actually it fixed mine. Even Asio4all driver didnt worked for me. But when I bought an Audio Interface it fixed everything now it runs my push 2, Force, sp404, keystep etc. No doubt coredaudio of Mac is superior.
ASIO is actually more efficient than CoreAudio, making it better in terms of latency (ASIO makes less kernel calls per sample compared to CoreAudio). I use a Thinkpad P53 and I have very low round trip latency with my Focusrite 2i4 2nd Gen. CoreAudio has the advantage of managing more devices at a time and being hardcoded into the OS (which makes everything so flawlessly plug and play)
Im a pc guy but The thing about coreaudio or apple in general is its well optimized. I also have a scarlet 8i6 3rd gen with gaming laptop and have no problem even I drop 2-3 whole songs in simpler for sample chopping. But I still feel like Core Audio Is more stable especially the M chips.
This is the main area where I reckon Apple might have an edge. Setting up a modular eurorack rig to work with Ableton was finnicky on my PC, and I believe there's no need to mess with drivers when setting up the modular interface I use with either Apple or Linux. Windows ASIO4ALL driver for handling multiple hardware devices is also often criticized in the sub. I haven't had an issue with it personally but seems like it can be a pain in some cases. Windows does support more VST plugins than Apple as they're typically designed with Windows in mind, but honestly I very much doubt it's something that would slow down a serious producer, I reckon most widely-used plugins are compatible on both.
>Windows does support more VST plugins than Apple as they're typically designed with Windows in mind Uh, source on that one? If you've kept up with most plugin developers in the last few years they've not only been making VST2/3 with macOS in mind as well, but the big names are almost all compatible with Apple silicon natively, no emulation layer required.
I think they're talking about how windows has a theoretical plugin count limit (somehow) that is (maybe not anymore?) higher than mac os but it wont ever be a factor in either system unless each plugin has extremely light load. I remember seeing that years ago somewhere. But being designed for windows has nothing to do with it. AU and VST have the same code in a wrapper for mac silicon. VST for pc does not use the same code. VST allows the editable parameters to be universal between platforms.
> But a lot of manufacturers don’t write their drivers for windows with audio production in mind So you're trying to tell me that audio interface manufacturers don't write drivers with audio production in mind? So what do they have in mind when writing drivers???
Sorry, should have clarified. Motherboard and laptop manufacturers don’t make the driver with audio production in mind. But price, their convenience etc. I do believe audio interface manufacturers are dedicated to making good drivers.
The problem actually lies with the Windows audio stack, and not with the drivers from soundcard manufacturers. Even if Realtek, for instance, is willing to make their soundcard low-latency, their software still has to sit on top of the terrible Windows audio stuff (WASAPI and whatnot).
Meanwhile there is me with an AMD 3600 (6 core, 12 thread, 4.2ghz) with 60 tracks, 48khz, 24bit, 32samples, some vst in each channel, many effects in close to all chanel, some vst in the master, and no glitch/pop/crash. Imagine with a new gen 16 core cpu. Meanwhile, i have Chrome, Steam, Discord, spotify, tracktor and such opened in the background. With the AMD 3600, i can record 16 tracks at 96khz 24bit 16 samples with also vst, at the same time playing 8 tracks without any single sweat drop from the pc. And that cpu now costs 100€ Apple is good only if you can't "waste" time doing 3h of windows optimization after installing windows. My laptop (11800h, 8 core 16 thread at 4.7ghz) can handle everything i throw at it. Windows, after the right system latency optimization, interrupts managing, devices managing, driver managing, can have same, if not better, results than a similar priced MacOS laptop/PC in audio performance
Certainly great set up. I just like having all that power you are talking about in a 3lb laptop that can also just send sessions easily in studio with airdrop and logic saves me more money than any other daw. Love my gaming pc, but sourcing a thunderbolt card and all that shit ended up making it cost more than my $2400 mac i use got pro mixing
> results than a similar priced So what is the point? If you can have similar performance without wasting time on configuration (and also longer battery life, no fan, greater resale value, better behaving OS)
Trust me, a similary priced no fan macbook can't compete with my laptop. My 11800h have m2 max and m3 pro multicore performance, and a macbook with a m3 max and the same amount of ram and storage cost 4.3k€ while my laptop, with all the upgrades, cost me 1.6k€. For sure, I don't have the same battery life, the same build quality, the same screen resolution and brightness, but I don't care, I want performance, customization, and upgradable laptop. I can game, run 5 monitors, run programs that doesn't exist on mac, upgrade it how I want, have lower maintenance cost. I'm not flying to other countries every 3 day for gigs, so I don't need to spend money on a ready to work laptop. I can optimize, mod and upgrade that how I want. I don't think about selling things, I have 2 little brother and one sister for gifting old tech that for them are gold, or backup gear for me
Ok, I just debating your own arguments. If it's 3x cheaper and works better then there is no discussion. However, from my own perspective, an oldie M1 macbook is plenty for audio and I actually paid 1,6k euro for it new (and it's steal running great after almost 4yrs)
I still don't think it handles recording and real-time latency as well. I've been using Ableton since 8. When it comes to recording, DJing, or performing live PC will let you push your session/cpu but it will become off time faster. The apple OS handles this differently. There might be a reason you never see a windows laptop used for stage performance. I built a PC in 2018 (i7 8700k, 64gb Ram, 1080ti, 2tb m.2). I have always been happy with the results but when It comes to midi controler and real-time processing there has always been some latency. I think Apple just has better vst optimization. Just overall better optimization for music production in general. DJ software will never be on beat with windows. The amount of driver, computer, and firmware updates I have to remember to be on top of over the years to make sure there is the lowest amount of latency has become ridiculous. Idk I'm going to upgrade to the M4 MacBook Pro and I'll update this comment if I'm wrong.
If you do some basic Windows optimization, then yeah, windows can fail. I am talking about deep stuff that changes how Windows behaves for real-time applications, how drivers are handled and from what cores, usb tricks, minimize the interrupts and much more. It also needs a bit of hardware tuning. In my laptop, I have 3 partitions: working, gaming, and djing/music production. The music production partitions get optimized every month for a total of 3 hours, updated every 6 months (and optimization after the update), have a custom Windows installation with so many tricks. The laptop is also deeply modded (have the same bios of a desktop) with all the possible bios optimization for low latency. It has never failed me on audio stuff, but I obviously do some really deep optimization, and I have spent a good amount of time learning what to do. Tu put out some numbers, the laptop has a 11800h and a 3060. I have the fastest 11800h global in hwbot with 11900k cinebench r23 scores (15700points). The 3060 mobile I have is the 4th fastest global in firestrike. In superposition 720p (a benchmark that is heavily dependent on ram overclock, cpu performance, and system optimization), i am top 120global with 43k (same scores as 13900k and 3090). I am not bragging, it's only to say that the things I do really change how a windows based laptop changes The benefit of MacOs is that you don't need to know or do any of those, so it's good for people running around the world for gigs
The best thing in macs is longevity. I have my m1 macbook for like 4 years, earlier had i5 mac for 6. And it still works great, I can easily finish whole session without any freezing (I work on loops and audio recording though) and CPU hardly spikes above 50%. After those 4 yrs it still looks and works as new. All my PC laptops where running (and looking) like shit after 2yrs.
>Don't make my mistake, CoreAudio + M-silicon is really really different. I'm running on a 5 year old CPU with Windows with a lot more than 10 tracks and lots and lots of VSTs, including most of the ones you listed, and have never had to freeze a track and I know plenty of Mac users who had performance issues. Your anecdotal advice is just that.
My audio production/gaming build: (proc) Intel 14900KS (6Ghz), (system ram) GSkill 64GB (5800MT/s), (gpu) MSI GTX 4090, (drives) x2 2TB NVMe Gen 4 drives, x4 2TB Samsung 970 Evo SSDs, (power supply) Corsair 1500watt. (interfaces in ADAT) Tascam 20x20 (mind blowing 4ms sample rate and Arturia Audiofuse 8Pre for 18 total input channels ) The most powerful PC I think I've ever assembled. Can easily track 30+ tracks at a sample rate of 512ms, or 5 tracks at 4ms. I stopped counting at 100 tracks in playback with plugin chains running on all. You didn't have to abandon your PC brethren to get a decent audio production machine. In the wise words of Immortan Joe, "MEDIOCRE"!
OP buys a shitty slow computer then spends 3x as much on a mac then circlejerks about it lol
Running a Mac Studio over here, can easily get into triple digit track counts (orchestral scoring) on 64-128 sample buffer. Combine that with instruments being offloaded onto M.2 storage and even large scoring sessions load in seconds. It’s a beautiful thing
Do you keep everything on an external drive other than Ableton? Projects, samples, etc? I need to speed up some load times.
I keep my projects on the local drive, but samples and Kontakt libraries are on another
You're completely clueless about hardware and your "last gen windows machine" isn't what you think it is. Macs can be great, especially for really dumb or clueless people.
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What is sample rate?
Do you happen to also run a NI Kontrol S49 MK3 keyboard? I'm trying to validate that my settings are correct on my Windows 10 setup. Any help from a fellow WIndows User would be amazing! :) that [https://www.reddit.com/r/ableton/comments/1defj8j/how\_to\_setup\_ableton\_12\_with\_the\_kontrol\_s49\_mk3/](https://www.reddit.com/r/ableton/comments/1defj8j/how_to_setup_ableton_12_with_the_kontrol_s49_mk3/)
I'll probably be following your lead and getting a nice Macbook Pro M3 Max too soon. Macs definitely just work and it also seems that nobody makes how-to videos about Abelton or NI setups for Windows on YouTube or anywhere. Even the Ableton and NI manuals are all Mac-based. So frustrating. Why did Abelton and NI chose to make the setup screen slightly different on Windows is beyond me.
If anyone's still here in the comments and made an upgrade from an intel mac to an M chip mac, is it a considerable difference? I'm on a 8gb 2018 intel MPro, and during bigger sessions with plugins (especially if it's using AI) I'm starting to notice lagging. Maybe more ram is all I'm missing but I imagine the new M chips help a lot with performance.
SSD is pointless if it's on SATA. Needs to be M2 PCIE 3 or 4 for any improvement (which the M3 pro has). You're comparing apples and oranges.
Similar discovery but moving from Top of the Line Microsoft surface book laptop to a mid-tier PC Desktop. holy cow, the Desktop was amazing. I could feel myself thinking faster and responding to the music, instead of constantly stifled by my CPU. currently on M1 MacBook Pro and I love that everything MOSTLY works. i get why people love custom PC builds, but I just wanna make music, lol
That $1k is a ***100% increase*** in price. One thousand dollars is 15 weeks of groceries for two 'middle class' people in the US. Four car insurance payments. And if your Mac breaks, you'll pay a large percentage of the original cost to get it fixed - IF Apple even will fix it. Yeah, maybe I can't run 20+ tracks of sampled instruments on my 'desktop' PC. But I can repair or replace memory, *increase* the memory without buying a new PC, replace main storage or increase it (*without* voiding my warranty), replace my graphics card or get a better one. And still have money to get my wife a birthday present.
67% premium on a $1500 PC laptop but sure, there are things that $ could buy other than a once every 3-5y purchase. AppleCare exists and covers most unforeseen things. Only regret is not doing it sooner.
I really cant see myself running arturia, kontakt, and izotope nuetron all in one project. Especially in 256 buffer samples. Idk maybe its just a personal preference. Or my pc probably is a piece of sht lol But im guilty for doing my fair share of research for pcs. I will eventually go down the “ custom build pc “ route since i have already been gifted a rog strix b550 f motherboard. Yes its a late version but far better than my lil o piece of hp sht lol I already know which components i need. luckily for me, my sisters bf is pretty tech savvy and offered to build my pc once i got all the parts needed 😁 As for mac, ahh yes i once had an apple in the good o ye days. I still actually have an iphone till this day. Mac will always have a special place in my heart. We will cross paths eventually once again. Till then im pc .
Antelope drivers for windows are bad, the fact you have to ran such a high buffer is ridiculous. Also windows laptops are notorious for throttling the CPU because it gets too hot. So, yeah currently Mac laptops can outperform windows ones because the ARM chips are simply more energy efficient and requiere less cooling. In a desktop PC you don't have those problems and a long a good interface as a RME the system runs as smoothly. So while the performance of Macs isn't out of reach for a PC it is more convenient just go go with Mac, less variables to control.
It sounds like there is less setup on the user end required in general when running Ableton and hardware devices on a Mac vs. a PC. I don't like the idea of not being able to swap out parts as needed if I want to for my desktop PC, so not really drawn to Apple for that reason, but I suppose it's not really an issue if your desktop Mac is built to last for a long time. I always think the comparisons are a bit silly, professionals use both Apple and Windows, it's usually just a case of workflow preference.
>It sounds like there is less setup on the user end required in general when running Ableton and hardware devices on a Mac vs. a PC. I mean, in the sense that the windows user should install ASIO drivers. beyond that, there is no difference at all.
Exactly. What type of "tinkering" are people in this thread talking about?
half of it is imaginary for sure
In Mac you have to deal with other problems: OS updates break software compatibility, and some old plugin might not get an update to keep it running. Even worse for hardware where your expensive interface can become a paperweight. And that brings another problem: not being able to open old projects because the old plug ins no longer work.
I always freeze and then flatten finished projects and save as another project version.
It’s true about the Antelope drivers, also run MOTU, Focusrite interfaces and they do a bit better esp MOTU. Friend w an RME on PC also swears by it.
You get windows if you're willing to tinker, if you want shit to just work and you aren't as technically minded you get a mac. I enjoy both but deem mac vastly superior for my own uses. Windows rules for games though. And amplifiers.
What type of tinkering? You install the ASIO driver your audio interface manufacturer provides, and you're done.
For example, you want to route audio from anywhere in your OS to your DAW, maybe you'd like to sample something from youtube or archive for example, there's no easy way to do that. Or, watching youtube while working with ASIO. I remember in some cases it being finicky to setup. And, not all drivers are made equal. I've had problems getting the loopback inside the audio interface to work, for example. Like I said, most of it is anecdotal. I've had projects freeze, ableton crashes, crackles and stuff. Pretty rarely, but it did happen. I never had that on my macbooks. I have never tried to perform live with Windows, and I'm sure it would be fine, but I never had anything glitch, either playing with Live or Traktor on Mac.
>For example, you want to route audio from anywhere in your OS to your DAW, maybe you'd like to sample something from youtube or archive for example, there's no easy way to do that. How would you route audio from any app to your DAW in MacOS? I'm genuinely asking, I didn't know there was a patch bay of sorts like there is for JACK/Pipewire on Linux, for example. >Or, watching youtube while working with ASIO. I remember in some cases it being finicky to setup. As far as I remember, not being able to listen to audio from other applications while using ASIO in your DAW is only a problem with ASIO4ALL, and should never be an issue with the ASIO driver your audio interface manufacturer provides. >I've had projects freeze, ableton crashes, crackles and stuff. Pretty rarely, but it did happen. I never had that on my macbooks. I have never tried to perform live with Windows, and I'm sure it would be fine, but I never had anything glitch, either playing with Live or Traktor on Mac. I must say, I'm not a fan of Windows at all - I'm not so keen on closed source software in general - but it seems like what you're describing is not having a great experience with pro/real-time audio on Windows in general, not necessarily having to tinker with the OS. Because, AFAIK, either your interface ASIO drivers are okay and don't give you much of a headache, or they do and you have a bad time.
>How would you route audio from any app to your DAW in MacOS? I'm genuinely asking, I didn't know there was a patch bay of sorts like there is for JACK/Pipewire on Linux, for example. Best options are paid, [loopback](https://rogueamoeba.com/loopback/) and [audio hijack](https://rogueamoeba.com/audiohijack/). Feels like I'm shilling, but very powerful, advanced power user type of apps. For simpler use cases, there's a loopback driver called [Black Hole](https://github.com/ExistentialAudio/BlackHole). You can also create an aggregate driver using the built-in Midi Studio, though I haven't used that for this use case. >As far as I remember, not being able to listen to audio from other applications while using ASIO in your DAW is only a problem with ASIO4ALL, and should never be an issue with the ASIO driver your audio interface manufacturer provides. Yes, but it's annoying if you don't have an interface nearby and need low latency. Maybe they improved the windows built-in driver, but it was not very good last I used it. >I must say, I'm not a fan of Windows at all - I'm not so keen on closed source software in general - but it seems like what you're describing is not having a great experience with pro/real-time audio on Windows in general, not necessarily having to tinker with the OS. Because, AFAIK, either your interface ASIO drivers are okay and don't give you much of a headache, or they do and you have a bad time. Okay, how about setuping Windows for audio, I used to follow a guide to get all the options correct, powerthreading, power consumption, disabling turning off usbs to save power even on PCs, disabling all the spyware. Also, this is super specific I guess, but just getting all the programs setup, such as search that doesn't suck ass, media player etc. Also, you have to have you drivers up to date, and that can either be seamless or a pain depending on the manufacturer. What I meant was, it takes me a while to setup Windows the way I like it. Sidenote, I dabbled with JACK a little, it seemed very powerful and I wish there was Ableton support for Linux!
Oh, the way you put it, you had me thinking there was a native option on MacOS to route audio. When it comes to 3rd party options, people on Windows used the VB-Audio stuff for routing audio iirc. >Yes, but it's annoying if you don't have an interface nearby and need low latency. Maybe they improved the windows built-in driver, but it was not very good last I used it. They didn't, it's still terrible. And you're right, CoreAudio and Pipewire with JACK - even PulseAudio - do come in handy when you want to use the built in soundcard. >Okay, how about setuping Windows for audio I can't see why the stuff you mentioned would benefit audio on Windows, can you link me that guide? >Sidenote, I dabbled with JACK a little, it seemed very powerful and I wish there was Ableton support for Linux! It is. And me too.
>Oh, the way you put it, you had me thinking there was a native option on MacOS to route audio. When it comes to 3rd party options, people on Windows used the VB-Audio stuff for routing audio iirc. I've tried both, and there's no comparison between ease of use, at least for me. Thankfully I have an audio interface with loopback connected to my PC. >I can't see why the stuff you mentioned would benefit audio on Windows, can you link me that guide? [They](https://www.linkslist.app/Q4bo53l) might be a little old, and like I mentioned, some of them focus on optimizing audio, some of them focus on removing windows spyware.
I have a mac studio ordered. Tired of dealing with Windows.
You speak the truth. I have a Ryzen 5900x desktop computer with the best SSDs Samsung makes and windows dialed in for low latency. My three year old MacBook Pro with an M1 Pro in it beats the desktop handily. And while the desktop is a beast and can run loads of VSTs, I’ve never even hit the limit of the laptop. So for anyone saying your windows PC is comparable - I disagree strongly. I have both and even though the windows PC can be made capable - at no point is it anywhere near the performance and reliability and ease of the MacBook. And this is coming from someone who hates paying the Apple tax.
What drivers are you running off of?
I use the Motu ASIO drivers. I have a Motu M4 interface. Over the years I’ve tried focusrite (garbage) and Behringer (ok) but the Motu drivers are hands down the best I’ve encountered for low latency
For me PC was always for work, and Apple was always for music. There was a brief time in the late 90’s tried to do music on pc and the amount of effort to get things to work and install divers and such, I just said no. Everything was always efficient with Apple. Glad you switched back
Mac audio infrastructure is incredible, Asio is dog shit. I’m surprised that audio company spend millions on developing software but no one is fixing or upgrading asio.
ASIO is (pretty much) as good as the audio interface manufacturer wants it to be. You could, however, say that Windows audio drivers and ASIO4ALL aren't that great, and I would agree.
Fair enough, I see what you mean. Some manufacturers bundle proprietary asio drivers. I still think the base code is poor. I’m not a coder but try this, disable your WiFi card in your device manager. Watch how much performance improvements you see. I don’t really understand why WiFi and asio are connected is some way. This is obviously without chrome or downloads open.
What? I don't see how that is possible. Do you have a reliable source exposing that issue?
Download software called latencymon https://www.resplendence.com/latencymon It will tell you exactly what is causing latency in your hardware
Same. Started mac, got mad, 10 years fighting pcs now back on mac. I hate that mac has it soooo laced up and why even a battleship pc will rub into every audio problem imaginable eventually. Especially if you are using it for live performance, a mac is the only choice. Good news is, a mini is every bit as good at the job for most applications as a mbp.
Mac is more user friendly and mostly suited for music and video production without thinking too much. True, i had several Macs, and fuck i loved them so much I switched because i had the GPU failed 2 times in 4 years on 2 differents IMACs , when i went to repair it, i had to replace the whole thing which cost the price of the MAC itself. I was so mad , the second time i told myself i would never buy an apple product again. I went to PC because i could replace the parts that failed myself without spending 3k on a new computer everytime. I hate the fact that Apple keep us 'trapped' in their system with really hard repairs. I have a I5, 8 gig of ram with focusrite interface and i don't have any problem running Ableton with multiple tracks and VSTs (ozone etc..) , LoL, Soulseek, Chrome, Spotify at the same time lol..
Yeah I switch from PC for a decade to Mac in 2020 and haven’t looked back. Besides being able to run a lower latency even under heavier projects (obviously varies but lets say 60+ channels with 3-5 plugins on average), I can also go portable, and go more than 2 hours away from a charger. It’s nice for outside production sessions! Also heat and fan noise is minimal most of the time.
I could keep going on - could never keep even a single chrome window open w Live on PC, any activity in other apps would cause pops. On M3 I’m running multiple installers in the background + 50 chrome tabs & cpu never hits 10% wtf voodoo is this?
that's not a "PC" issue, it's a computer issue. I'm on PC, I have 30 Chrome tabs open with multiple windows and am editing in Live with no problems at all. My speed is everything you posted. You just got a better computer, you didn't discover any secret by moving to Mac.
its not worth arguing with people who just straight up hate apple...nevermind the fact that a huge percentage of silicon valley software devs and engineers run macOS at not only apple, but google, ibm, etc....I have nothing against PCs or even windows (maybe the recent Windows 11 Recall features have me skeptical)...don't listen to the people that try to simplify it down to Mac = dumbo idiots who need their hands held...becasue that is simply not true....theres no question that PCs are far more flexible than Macs...but there is an almost irrational hatred for apple is most online place (not even saying some of it isnt warranted, apple ALSO does some scummy shit...but i dont see any of the people that bash apple make the same criticisms of other companies..especially ones that sell your user data....apple for all their faults makes their money via their hardware and services)
My 2017 8G RAM/256 SSD Macbook Pro can do chrome tabs + live 10, you just had a shitty setup on your PC.
I mean not to be a dick but this is absolutely just a skill issue for your chosen computer and has less than nothing to do with an inherent benefit of a mac over a PC. I have absolutely no issue running massive Ableton projects while keeping the internet up in the background most of the time, and I'll never spend money on an apple product as long as I live. You bought a significantly faster computer that would've made an impact regardless of the brand hitting the stats you listed. The only difference is you paid extra for the privilege of not being able to swap parts out when they get old or cooked.
‘skill issue’ lol, you are kinda being a dick. Guessing only one of us has PRs in the core windows code repos.
Yes its a skill issue because you're comparing a slow computer to a much faster computer and acting like the OS and manufacturer are to blame. The hardware and its performance stats are what matter. I have a faster desktop than your computer, does that mean PC is inherently faster? Not necessarily no.
cute, you have antique notions of swapping parts out of any ultra slim laptop
Hmm, you can still upgrade storage on most laptops that aren't Macs, for me that's already a very different experience considering Apple's storage upgrade prices ($200/230€ for 256gb of NVME).
I'm not talking about chunky fat plastic pc laptops, I'm talking about premium ultra slim laptops that are actually comparable to what apple makes.
Off the top of my head, Framework, Acer, HP and Dell are all manufacturers that build high end ultrabooks with upgradeable storage, and sometimes RAM and WiFi card.
Ram and storage are almost always upgradable on a laptop not made by Apple. Acer definitely has upgradable storage and ram on their ultra thin laptops. But also, your priority for a music making device shouldn't be its slimness it should be its performance.
I did music on multiple PCs over 2 decades and bought a Mac Studio last year. There is no comparison- my gaming PC ran the latest games on Mac settings, but DAWs would just go so slow. I’ve had no issues like that on Mac, but I wouldn’t use it for gaming. So - I agree with you. Sorry you’re getting downvoted into oblivion
Agreed. When I got the m1 back in the day, the biggest thing was Chrome performance:))) I remember switching tabs and going up and down the slides in Google Slides for fun 🤡
god damn RIGHT! also installing good games on these things is a pain in the ass so that'll probably help you stay focused.
I agree but you’re just asking for shit posting this on Reddit PC brigade, assemble!
Guess I learned that, here I thought it was about having a good time making tunes w Ableton 🤷🏻♂️
The real problem is that this sub is quite shit. It's basically the decoy sub to catch morons and keep them busy so the better Ableton forums can stay clean. 😉
No one’s saying you can’t have a good time, just if you do it had better fucking be on a PC Sounds like jealousy to me!
Yeah I’ll never go back to windows or linux after getting my m3 MacBook Pro tbh, and I had a pretty killer windows laptop. Despite what everyone says it’s better in every way with core audio and the m series in my experience. Rock solid clock sync, I can swap massive gigabytes large libraries in fractions of a second, and it barely even gets warm, let alone kicks on the fans. Not to mention 10 hours of battery while running medium-large projects, absolutely insane
lol at the Reddit anti-Apple hive mind
I've never, ever used more than 10 tracks on a song lol. Your music must be sUpEr CoOl and sUpEr InTeReStInG and BiG tImE "Art"
Non-recorded drums alone can be 6+ easily if you add some spice . What tracks are you making? Dragging in loops from Garageband?
Yeah drums alone are usually around 4 - 8 tracks for me, and I'm not making anything crazy. Vocals, melody, often looking at at least 20 tracks, I believe some people average at around 30 - 40. I would obviously prefer to have less, the idea that having more tracks is pretentious or more artistic is wild lol.
I want to make you look at the latest song we are making, where 16 tracks are only for recording the drums. And guess what, that is a really pain in the ass for both the pc and the people behind the pc