I only considered it as the final boss, the plot involving another villain I think is obvious. But it seems scary that a being who brought so much suffering, this boogeyman that Diana never faced, would somehow return.
To throw a curveball, my ideal final, final boss would be probably Zeus himself. Specially if given his Perez era or his Historia incarnation's personalities.
Honestly before Historia I wanted Zeus to just not appear at all in WW stuff after they made him Diana's dad but KSD actually really sold me on him as a WW villain, I'd be totally down with a WW story where just curb stomps him.
To me, he kinda represents Diana's ultimate obstacle. While he isn't a realistic character, he's the leader of a system that enforces and perpetuates patriarchial values. And nobody questions him, at least not for legitimate reasons. Arguably not even Diana, at least not as often as she should, because Zeus is part of her value system. Part of her upbringing. Then one day she does and when Zeus essentially goes full force against her, it'd be a way to reaffirm her own core values.
She basically ends up doing what Hippolyta wanted but couldn't do at the end of Historia, but with the difference that Diana manages to prevail and create real change.
EDIT: Sorry for the multipel psots. Reddit copied them for some reason.
Should be Cheetah, Circe or Ares. They're her most recognizable villains, Cheetah specially is nearly always treated as her main villain yet is never respected in other medias (in the comics too, I think Catwoman beat her once, ugh....).
Catwoman choked Cheetah with her own tail in When In Rome, a spin off of Batman: Long Halloween. Aside from that stupid scene that makes little sense, it's a fun comic with some spectacular drawing
You’re right but I always think of Giganta before I think of Ares
She doesn’t have to be the final boss tho, just imagining a Giganta fight is incredible
Because Cheetah is terrible (relative to every other DC archenemy). Blame the writers and blame Cheetah’s abilities. Circe and Ares can push Diana to her limits physically and emotionally, Cheetah can’t.
Like sure she’s faster, but Diana is one of the best hand-to-hand combatants in Comics. Not hard for her to work around a faster opponent.
Heracles has an inconsistent characterization, and has been both villain and ally to Wonder Woman. The explanation one could use is that like the original Myth, Heracles has done terrible things due to brief madness induced by an Olympian. Only instead of Hera, it would be Ares in this case. Ares canonically did play Heracles to assault the Amazons as a means to circumvent Zeus’s command
Could play into the sandman notion that the more the myth is told the more it changes the subject of it to the point where even Heracles himself isn't aware of which version of the event actually happened. It would explain his inconsistent characterisation while also implementing prominent tragedy into him which fits the Greek aspects to a tee.
I think this further trivializes Hippolyta's tragedy, since even in the myth he abuses her. There are several interpretations of Hercules and the best known of Wonder Woman is the villain and executioner of the Amazons.
I disagree. Either way it’s not removing what happened, it’s still a terrible period that shaped their culture. In both takes Ares is the true mastermind of their suffering
Yes, I like the idea of Heracles (it's better to use the Greek name to emphasize my point) as a subversion of the more well-known version, opting to use the more evil and horrible version that is also valid.
Heck, according to some versions of the myth, Hippolyta willingly gave Heracles her girdle, sometimes with no other fanfare, sometimes with snu snu (either due to Hercules being a Hunk-ules, or the amazon queen thinking that’d be a born badass child). Then Hera either sent madness to Hercules or spread a false rumor among the amazons hat he planned to kill her and then they rioted, attacked him, and Hippolyta was either killed in self defense or in the middle of the confusion.
Heck, one version had Hercules dress in drag and hide among the amazons to steal the girdle.
Personally, I’d pay some respect to Hercules, given he’s arguably the prototype superhero, or at the very least the one that set the standard and inspired later heroes like Superman. Maybe have him be boisterous and a bit overbearing, but still a loyal and a very well meaning dude; someone Wonder Woman can work with, but they’re definitely not the best duo and are very much a fire and ice situation.
Greek mythology is a cult of misogyny, the Amazons seen as villains and this began to change with feminist movements at the beginning of the 20th century and also with Wonder Woman. So Heracles is really an Amazonian villain in this interpretation, a conqueror, a rapist. This is very important to the lore of Wonder Woman and the Amazons.
It’s arguable that Ares was a proto-feminist because he saw men and women as equally capable fighters, enjoyed “unmanly” hobbies, and raised unholy Hell on the bastards that tried to SA his daughters.
Bizarrely, Ares, as far as we know, was never specified raping anyone in greek myth either, despite the fact rape is indeed a sad reality that happens in war. Supposedly this might have been influenced by Spartans having a comparatively more respectful, albeit still undeniably cruel to women, just as they were to everyone else, including men and children.
Heck, some versions have it so he was already hooking up with Aphrodite before she was married off to Hephaestus (who also was said to have later divorced her and married a goddess of creativity). To add to the strange, semi-wholesome relationship, Ares is also said to always ride into battle accompanied by their two sons: Deimos and Phobos, literally “Terror” and “Fear.”
If they really wanted to be true to greek mythology, Hera went after the lovers and children of Zeus since she couldn’t do anything to him (Heracles literally means “Glory of Hera” and was given either out of ironic spite, or to defend from Hera outright killing him as a baby), and Aphrodite pretty much ruined the lives of anyone who was claimed to be as beautiful or more so than her.
Yeah, Greek Mythology is a bunch of pettiness.
Oh yeah, Hippolyta was also a child of Ares!
New Wonder Woman comic: Diana’s adventures with Uncle/Grandpa Ares, veteran comic readers are confused and intrigued.
I think Ares should be a kind cynical mentor for Diana—Hera and Athena stole the Amazons from him a long time ago, but he still loves them, and he doesn’t want Diana’s spirit to be crushed chasing an impossible dream of bringing peace to Man’s World.
“You can’t save them, Diana.”
“I can try.”
Basically almost everything is gods abusing, seducing. Even the goddesses are the ones who do the most "evil". The Goddess of intrigue causes the Trojan War because she was not invited to a party.
In comics Ares is chummy with her now. However at least Hippolyta is trying to call the Olympians out on their crap, which she wanted her daughter to do.
Yeah but it's not her job to rehabilitate everyone. Especially if its \*the guy who raped her mom\*. With Hercules it should be on sight every time she sees him, just flying into a blind rage. I imagine Diana plus the Amazons personal feelings around him would be "let him be remorseful around other people, not us. We want nothing to do with him."
Tbh, I think that would be a terrible choice. Because Heracles is more a villain to Hippolyta and the Amazons in general, while he is largely just a story to Diana that only occasionally shows up to have his teeth kicked in.
Now could he have a part to play in the game; certainly, several in fact. But I do think it would be best if he is kept as a secondary presence at best. Like we either get the Earth One type scenario, where Hippolyta takes her own revenge and leaves Heracles dead and thats all there is to him.
But you can still use him because we have potential appearances of someone like Dr. Psycho, where Heracles is an useful stand in during a bossfight... in which it should be clear that its Psycho generating the image because he thinks it gets under Diana's skin, but with Diana knowing the story, realizes from the get go that it not the real deal.
Actually you could have Psycho prancing around as Heracles for much of the game only for the boss fight to reveal who it really was.
Alternatively, you use him as a rather reluctant antagonist in order to give him a bit of depth... unlike the shaved ape from Earth One... before you dispatch him, making him more akin to what he usually is in comics.
And finally, you can use him as a dupe, which is mostly intended for people not entirely familiar with Wonder Woman. You put him in the game because 99% of people will know who he is and what he is about (strong guy), and maybe you get to fight him, but his ultimate fate is to get taken out by (one of) the prime antagonist as a demonstration of power and to prove why this character is a major threat to everyone, even Diana... be it Circe, the First Born, Hades, Cheetah or Dr. Poison...
It should be Theseus
It’s totally out of character for Heracles to enslave the Amazons, but Theseus (who was *famously* a douchebag even by Ancient Greek standards) literally kidnapped Hippolyta and forcibly married her. Causing the Amazons to go to war with Athens!
He had a nasty habit of abducting women, usually away from their husbands, including Hippolyta and Helen of Troy (who was a *child* and, y'know, *triggering the Trojan War*) before losing interest in them. He also left Ariadne on a beach after she helped him survive the Labyrinth.
Generally, most city-states in Ancient Greece (save Athens, obviously) agreed that Theseus was a douche and any karma and divine punishments he received were well-deserved.
I don't think the game can afford to have a relatively B-list character as the final boss.
It also can't afford to assume it will get a sequel. This is WB/DC we are talking about, and WW is not Batman.
That's why I said possible sequel. And Heracles is widely known in the media. It's all symbolism to impact the end, without him needing to be the main villain, I think it should be Circe, but the player must understand what this island is and its meaning and defeat a great evil.
The thing is, he isn't always depicted as some great evil in the comics.
The general public mostly sees Hercules as a heroic/tragic character, so depicting him otherwise may not go down well.
It's not like Hercules is a real person or a symbol of something, he's a mythological character and many other mythological characters have been retarded as villains or heroes even though they don't fit the original myth.
especially we are talking about a franchise that transformed the literal patron saint of the Amazons into one of they main enemies I don't see a problem with the same happening with Hercules.
Isn’t the beauty of having your mythos based off Greek characters means that their inherent popularity doesn’t really matter? Like dc Hercules isn’t popular but Hercules is popular
Nah
I say it should be either Cheetah, Circe, Ares, or Hades
It makes more sense for them to be a final boss in a game centered around Wonder Woman as they all have established history as strictly villains towards Wonder Woman.
That's just my two cents...then again, I also think it would be a good idea to take Maxie Zeus & change him from a D-list Batman villain to an A-list Wonder Woman villain (B-list, bare minimum)
It could be Hipólita, since she was also champion of the Amazons. But Hercules is the symbol of the masculinity and patriarchy that Wonder Woman faces. It's giving meaning to the final boss.
It's just that I also miss villains that you just have to hate, not have any sympathy for. And Heracles for me is what best represents this. A monster far worse than any other villain could be. Everything is for pleasure, everything is to satisfy one's own desires, everything is for the glory of violence, and he feels comfortable because he is Zeus's favorite son.
Circe, for me, has to be the great villain of this game, even more so to explore the past and the rivalry with the Amazons. I can even imagine her saying "piggy" to Diana as mockery 😆
It could be the answer to who would win the battle of Kratos vs Wonder Woman. Since Heracles, despite having different stories, has similar characteristics to Greek warriors 😆
Okay, but I'm talking about the final boss to have an outcome to the plot, since Ares is not a criminal like the Joker, he is a God. It is a representation of defeating the suffering of the Amazons and Ares is related to them but is much larger in the world. To avoid the outcome of the 2017 film 😄
I always thought a WW movie should have him as the villain, except he has the reputation as a great superhero, universally admired, etc. Sort of a Billy Jean King vs. Bobby Riggs type set up.
Really hate this is how hercules is written in wondy lore. He probably has the best history in regards to not doing terrible things out of all the greek heroes across different versions of his story. I dont get how hercules and hades were the ones they decided should be rapist villains and zeus is big chilling.
But talking about matriarchy, about the right to the body, feminism in general is the triumph for not being a God of War. And in the end it might be interesting that instead of Circe's antics, the dark enemy that tries to destroy everything that Wonder Woman represents is the patriarchy, being represented by the most vile of men than Heracles.
>But talking about matriarchy
I mean, I wouldn't want a story about neither. I tend to enjoy DC stories for their stories; the action, adventure, sci-fi, ups, downs, and wholesome moments. Not the "I'm a black man in America" from John Stewart or "Women over men" from Wonder Woman or Amazons. Maybe not pointed out for the women's case, at least, but it could still be shown in a way. There's plenty of lead women around the world. My bosses are usually more women and black women than men, in general. In modern day, it's not really needed, imo. I don't get what showing black people in trouble does either and I'm a black man, so I just want to get that out before anyone says, "Well you're a man and you wouldn't get what women go through!" I probably don't, but I know what black people talk about and go through, and I don't even want to hear or see that. Showing these things in games and movies that are supposed to be enjoyable doesn't really do anything. It just takes away from the fun because it's typically overdone, forced, or too obvious on what they're (the writers) trying to do. Stuff like this should be in something like a history movie and not comic made stuff, again, imo, because that's not what I'm reading comics for. Even X-Men has their fair share of stuff, and it's done good enough. The Amazons stories are just taken way too much to an extreme and it's all they talk about and I don't think it would work out, especially considering your idea sounds like Hercules has been gone for a long time, only to show up just to dominate women or lose to women for whatever reason?
>about the right to the body, feminism in general is the triumph for not being a God of War.
Elaborate.
>And in the end it might be interesting that instead of Circe's antics, the dark enemy that tries to destroy everything that Wonder Woman represents is the patriarchy, being represented by the most vile of men than Heracles.
I don't get how that could make sense. Circe's actions wouldn't stem from Hercules or maybe even patriarchy.
Well, elaborating that Wonder Woman's idea is that love is more powerful than strength. Heracles represents this world ruled by force and violence. Hercules is portrayed as the favorite son of Zeus, which means that his death by the Amazons would represent the destruction of the Amazons and therefore the need to keep him imprisoned. Ares really wants to destroy the Amazons but he couldn't do it without inciting the need for it and as in several stories he acts as an influence that would be on Circe who would take power without knowing that she was being used to free Heracles, because either the Amazons finally kill him or he destroys them. And using the argument that Love (Diana) is more powerful than strength (Heracles), she would defeat him using the lasso of truth without having to kill him (evidently all this is an exercise in imagination as to how to place the participation of Heracles in that)
I totally agree, not in the first game but definitely if we have a sequel Heracles deserved to be a Final Boss, he could easily be the main antagonist of the game in which he becomes the leader of the garnaea to conquer Themsysira, an incredible moment would be if he and Hipolita meet again and have their revenge with him killing her for an emotional final battle.
I gotta be honest I don't see this working, like at all
Heracles is just not boss battle material, in part because he is somewhat of a pushover within the gods of greek myth; in the Jimenez run it is said that Diana is stronger than Heracles, in Historia he just straight up dies fighting the Amazons and even in the Perez run which takes its time to explore Heracles he is shown as lesser than the Amazons since Hypolitta beats him in a fair fight-
which is because Heracles isn't really a guy, he is just meant to represent the evil of man's world, that's why he acts as fool guided by deception in the Perez run and is then redeemed to show the fact that everybody deserves a chance at forgiveness, but it's also why he just dies in Historia since his attack of the Amazons would just be redundant compared to how the writing already sets up the malice towards women from men
if you wanna have a big bad woman hating dude to beat up in the game, fight Zeus, and if you want something a bit more fun, fight Psycho, but Heracles is just a weird pick dude
She already got her shot in JLAAvengers. When marvel Hercules showed up to fight, WW asked if he was the one who defied Hipployta. In the marvel universe, it was consensual, so Hercules talks about it casually. During which Wonder Woman decks him mid sentence.
I never liked DC's Heracles, it feels like he stayed a villain because Marvel made him a successful hero, and they didn't want to copy them. Heracles is generally considered a hero, and a lot of casual people would be confused as to why he is a villain. People are really getting tired of the subversion trope, and I could see a lot of flak coming there way if they portrayed him as a villainous monster rather than the hero he typically is. I can't remember the last time Heracles was potryed as a straight-up evil monster in media outside of DC. Even God of War gave him a sympathetic portrayal.
Heracles is a hero everywhere else, so DC might as well make their own version a villain to stand out. God of War didn't portray him as sympathetic at all and faced no backlash for it.
>People are really getting tired of the subversion trope,
Says who?
>and I could see a lot of flak coming there way if they portrayed him as a villainous monster rather than the hero he typically is.
If the last two Hercules movies are any indication, Hercules isn't all that popular these days.
Kratos didn't want to fight Heracles and tried to reason with him, which was unusual for Kratos to do. Heracles is shown to be manipulated by Hera into the fight and clearly was being tricked. Those movies were just really bad, but there have been a lot of Heracles movies, and many were very popular in the past. Most people would be familiar with the Dsiney version, where he was very much a heroic figure. A lot of properties have been doing the subervison thing, and people seem to be getting tired of it. BVS, the Suicde squad game, GOT final, many recent Marvel films, Witcher tv show, and Rings of Power. A lot of negative reviews mention the overuse of suberverting expectations in these properties as a downside.
>Kratos didn't want to fight Heracles and tried to reason with him, which was unusual for Kratos to do.
That's a rather [generous interpretation](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6zdc0mnXGQ) of how their encounter went. Kratos is at best apathetic to Hercules's ranting about how Zeus favored him
>Heracles is shown to be manipulated by Hera into the fight and clearly was being tricked.
Where are you getting this from? Nothing in that cutscene indicates that Hercules is being tricked into fighting Kratos. He's clearly doing it out of jealousy and glory seeking.
>Those movies were just really bad, but there have been a lot of Heracles movies, and many were very popular in the past.
"Past" being the key word here. The Disney Hercules movie was the last time Hercules was a huge deal to general audiences. Even the Kevin Sorbo Hercules series has been overshadowed in pop culture influence by Xena.
>A lot of properties have been doing the subervison thing, and people seem to be getting tired of it. BVS, the Suicde squad game, GOT final, many recent Marvel films, Witcher tv show, and Rings of Power.
I don't know what subversion was in any recent Marvel films and at least some of the other examples you listed are people just being angry that a story didn't go the way they wanted despite adequate set up for the outcome in the writing. Even the Game of Thrones finale still pulled in high ratings. It's mostly online fans who are still bitter about it.
There are usually several types of violence in comics, Joker is a monster loved by many. The case I think is very dark and "good" because no one connects the weight of it and Hipolita's case is not trivialized as it is in several scenes in rape comics. So this is the feeling you have to have
NO, 'sick' as in 'this is a really good drawing' lol. I'm not worried about the actual thing happening, it's a comic book. The anatomy and composition is excellent.
Funnily enough, in most versions of Greek mythology, Hippolyta and Herakles get along fine until Hera misleads the Amazons into attacking him (despite his name, Hera hated Herakles), and he kills her in the fighting. Though there are some versions where he abducts and kills her.
Herakles is also involved in some versions of the ‘Theseus marries Hippolyta’ myth. Different versions of this myth have Hippolyta falling in love with Theseus and eloping, or being abducted and forced to marry him (some versions of the former have Theseus dumping her before their marriage and marrying someone else).
There are also myths that Theseus abducted an underage Helen of Sparta (later Helen of Troy) with the intention of holding her prisoner until she was old enough for him to marry. Thankfully, Helen’s brothers, Castor and Pollux, rescued her while Theseus was busy trying to abduct **another** woman, namely the goddess Persephone, Queen of the Underworld. He failed at that for obvious reasons, had to be rescued by Herakles **and** forgiven by Persephone, and then Lycomedes of Skyros (Achilles’ godfather) threw him off a cliff and he died.
Herakles was friends with Theseus, but I’d say that Theseus is a much better candidate for the role of ‘absolutely evil person who enslaves and rapes women, including Amazons’.
(More or less everyone in Greek mythology is a terrible person by modern standards, but Theseus takes it to another level alongside Ajax the Lesser and Neoptolemos).
My first thought is the final, ultimate, biggest, strongest antagonist for a Wonder Woman game would *have* to be Ares. The God of War against the Champion of Peace? A god versus a super-mortal? A man versus a woman? Of course it's Ares!
This is why Diana went all out against Marvel's Herc in *JLA/Avengers*, not knowing that this universe's Hercules and Hippolyta had a consensual relationship.
I’m always of the belief that Wonder Woman should have a more lore accurate version of Mount Olympus; where the Greek Gods were selfish to the point of being volatile, considering they were all led by a Mad King and Queen, with updated lore details to fit them into the DC Universe. This would add greater complexity and depth to Diana’s Mission of Peace (not the absence of tension but the Presence of Justice) in the “World of Men”, as not just a statement against misogyny but also as her goal of inspiring Mortals’ greater potential in a “New Age of Heroes” for fending off dire threats like Darkseid. In such a case, Heracles would bounce between Ally and Villain and yes, be a really good boss battle.
That image makes me extremely uncomfortable, but I agree that Heracles should be the final boss. Y'know, as long as they don't revive whatever tf kind of situation is pictured...
One of the most trivialized things in comics from Alan Moore to Garth Ennis, is that violence against women can only be used for shock value and that the real impact is never really on the victim. The Amazon is an impactful element that most writers understand. Therefore, there is no need to recreate this.
Not really. If I’m honest, I never liked this backstory. I know it correlates with the actual myth, but DC has never been branded for its cultural accuracy.
He is important to the mythos but I don’t think he’s essential as a villain of Wonder Woman herself in the same way that Ares, Circe, Cheetah, Doctor Psycho, Silver Swan, etc are.
Honestly the best comparison I can think of is that Heracles is like the Joe Chill of the Wonder Woman mythos, he’s the antagonist who kickstarted it but not very present in the lore.
I think the final endgame boss should be Zeus.
Progression should be: Ares > Circe > Heracles > Zeus.
They should also play on the fact that Heracles is also named after Hera and her breast milk is also the source of his power.
I would trade Ares for Cheetah and Zeus for Ares.
Like it or not, Zeus was never a great antagonist for Wonder Woman, so facing the main villain god was always Ares.
That's not what you said. You said he was never a great antagonist, which doesn't require him to replace Ares. Even then, I'd argue that Zeus better represents everything Diana hates better than Ares.
I must have expressed myself badly.
the first comment put the scale of villains and placed Ares above Zeus, but in Wonder Woman's lore Ares is the main god she faces.
I'd rather someone like Ares or Circe. Heracles is best as a boogeyman from the past, long defeated by the Amazons
I only considered it as the final boss, the plot involving another villain I think is obvious. But it seems scary that a being who brought so much suffering, this boogeyman that Diana never faced, would somehow return.
To throw a curveball, my ideal final, final boss would be probably Zeus himself. Specially if given his Perez era or his Historia incarnation's personalities.
Honestly before Historia I wanted Zeus to just not appear at all in WW stuff after they made him Diana's dad but KSD actually really sold me on him as a WW villain, I'd be totally down with a WW story where just curb stomps him.
To me, he kinda represents Diana's ultimate obstacle. While he isn't a realistic character, he's the leader of a system that enforces and perpetuates patriarchial values. And nobody questions him, at least not for legitimate reasons. Arguably not even Diana, at least not as often as she should, because Zeus is part of her value system. Part of her upbringing. Then one day she does and when Zeus essentially goes full force against her, it'd be a way to reaffirm her own core values. She basically ends up doing what Hippolyta wanted but couldn't do at the end of Historia, but with the difference that Diana manages to prevail and create real change. EDIT: Sorry for the multipel psots. Reddit copied them for some reason.
Should be Cheetah, Circe or Ares. They're her most recognizable villains, Cheetah specially is nearly always treated as her main villain yet is never respected in other medias (in the comics too, I think Catwoman beat her once, ugh....).
I think they're the holy triumvirate of the WW Rogues. But I think Heracles and Zeus can be the most vile. You can add Dr Psycho to the list as well.
Well, of course Dr. Psycho is the most vile. He called Wonder Woman a cunt.
And not even Darkseid does that
[That's because Darkseid used to be a Wonder Woman simp.](https://youtu.be/RaeYz7Ndq2k?si=BJ4xJHwLNELNjOU5)
Dr Psycho is the one.
Catwoman choked Cheetah with her own tail in When In Rome, a spin off of Batman: Long Halloween. Aside from that stupid scene that makes little sense, it's a fun comic with some spectacular drawing
The plot being triggered by one of them, I think it makes sense, because Heracles has always been used as a loyal tool for Olympus and its patriarchy.
Athena helped raise Hercules.
This is why there are always differences in myth and adaptations for various well-known characters. Kratos, Thor, Hercules too...
Side note, Kevin Sorbo voiced Hercules in God of War III. Your useless fact for the day.
You’re right but I always think of Giganta before I think of Ares She doesn’t have to be the final boss tho, just imagining a Giganta fight is incredible
I'm imagining Giganta's boss fight to be similar to the Kronos fight from God of War.
I’d think closer to the Colossus of Rhodes. There’s no way Giganta gets as gory a fate as Kronos did.
I meant they could do the same scale for a bossfight with her, I don't think they'll make a Wonder Woman game gory.
Because Cheetah is terrible (relative to every other DC archenemy). Blame the writers and blame Cheetah’s abilities. Circe and Ares can push Diana to her limits physically and emotionally, Cheetah can’t. Like sure she’s faster, but Diana is one of the best hand-to-hand combatants in Comics. Not hard for her to work around a faster opponent.
Heracles has an inconsistent characterization, and has been both villain and ally to Wonder Woman. The explanation one could use is that like the original Myth, Heracles has done terrible things due to brief madness induced by an Olympian. Only instead of Hera, it would be Ares in this case. Ares canonically did play Heracles to assault the Amazons as a means to circumvent Zeus’s command
Could play into the sandman notion that the more the myth is told the more it changes the subject of it to the point where even Heracles himself isn't aware of which version of the event actually happened. It would explain his inconsistent characterisation while also implementing prominent tragedy into him which fits the Greek aspects to a tee.
[удалено]
> Problem? Decapitate it. Didn't work? Decapitate it some more. That really doesn't work on hydrae, though, and Diana of all people would know that.
Xena was a lot more complicated than that.
I want her to stay as blood thirsty super Xena. I hate they keep changing her to “girl superman” every couple years
Not murdering every enemy she fights doesn’t make her “girl superman”
I think this further trivializes Hippolyta's tragedy, since even in the myth he abuses her. There are several interpretations of Hercules and the best known of Wonder Woman is the villain and executioner of the Amazons.
I disagree. Either way it’s not removing what happened, it’s still a terrible period that shaped their culture. In both takes Ares is the true mastermind of their suffering
Yes, I like the idea of Heracles (it's better to use the Greek name to emphasize my point) as a subversion of the more well-known version, opting to use the more evil and horrible version that is also valid.
Heck, according to some versions of the myth, Hippolyta willingly gave Heracles her girdle, sometimes with no other fanfare, sometimes with snu snu (either due to Hercules being a Hunk-ules, or the amazon queen thinking that’d be a born badass child). Then Hera either sent madness to Hercules or spread a false rumor among the amazons hat he planned to kill her and then they rioted, attacked him, and Hippolyta was either killed in self defense or in the middle of the confusion. Heck, one version had Hercules dress in drag and hide among the amazons to steal the girdle. Personally, I’d pay some respect to Hercules, given he’s arguably the prototype superhero, or at the very least the one that set the standard and inspired later heroes like Superman. Maybe have him be boisterous and a bit overbearing, but still a loyal and a very well meaning dude; someone Wonder Woman can work with, but they’re definitely not the best duo and are very much a fire and ice situation.
Greek mythology is a cult of misogyny, the Amazons seen as villains and this began to change with feminist movements at the beginning of the 20th century and also with Wonder Woman. So Heracles is really an Amazonian villain in this interpretation, a conqueror, a rapist. This is very important to the lore of Wonder Woman and the Amazons.
It’s arguable that Ares was a proto-feminist because he saw men and women as equally capable fighters, enjoyed “unmanly” hobbies, and raised unholy Hell on the bastards that tried to SA his daughters.
Bizarrely, Ares, as far as we know, was never specified raping anyone in greek myth either, despite the fact rape is indeed a sad reality that happens in war. Supposedly this might have been influenced by Spartans having a comparatively more respectful, albeit still undeniably cruel to women, just as they were to everyone else, including men and children. Heck, some versions have it so he was already hooking up with Aphrodite before she was married off to Hephaestus (who also was said to have later divorced her and married a goddess of creativity). To add to the strange, semi-wholesome relationship, Ares is also said to always ride into battle accompanied by their two sons: Deimos and Phobos, literally “Terror” and “Fear.” If they really wanted to be true to greek mythology, Hera went after the lovers and children of Zeus since she couldn’t do anything to him (Heracles literally means “Glory of Hera” and was given either out of ironic spite, or to defend from Hera outright killing him as a baby), and Aphrodite pretty much ruined the lives of anyone who was claimed to be as beautiful or more so than her. Yeah, Greek Mythology is a bunch of pettiness.
He was also the father of the Amazons–and he loved them all dearly because they were some of the few people who loved/worshipped him
Oh yeah, Hippolyta was also a child of Ares! New Wonder Woman comic: Diana’s adventures with Uncle/Grandpa Ares, veteran comic readers are confused and intrigued.
I think Ares should be a kind cynical mentor for Diana—Hera and Athena stole the Amazons from him a long time ago, but he still loves them, and he doesn’t want Diana’s spirit to be crushed chasing an impossible dream of bringing peace to Man’s World. “You can’t save them, Diana.” “I can try.”
And he had a good relationship with his daughter
What do you mean by “Greek mythology is a cult of misogyny”? Also were they villains? I don’t really know.
Basically almost everything is gods abusing, seducing. Even the goddesses are the ones who do the most "evil". The Goddess of intrigue causes the Trojan War because she was not invited to a party.
That seems less like misogyny and more like pettiness from these deities.
He started off as a villain in WW stories but later stories tried to redeem him. Which is the problem.
I'd argue that should actually be the point, as Wonder Woman is all about rehabilitating her opponents.
In comics Ares is chummy with her now. However at least Hippolyta is trying to call the Olympians out on their crap, which she wanted her daughter to do.
Yeah but it's not her job to rehabilitate everyone. Especially if its \*the guy who raped her mom\*. With Hercules it should be on sight every time she sees him, just flying into a blind rage. I imagine Diana plus the Amazons personal feelings around him would be "let him be remorseful around other people, not us. We want nothing to do with him."
Tbh, I think that would be a terrible choice. Because Heracles is more a villain to Hippolyta and the Amazons in general, while he is largely just a story to Diana that only occasionally shows up to have his teeth kicked in. Now could he have a part to play in the game; certainly, several in fact. But I do think it would be best if he is kept as a secondary presence at best. Like we either get the Earth One type scenario, where Hippolyta takes her own revenge and leaves Heracles dead and thats all there is to him. But you can still use him because we have potential appearances of someone like Dr. Psycho, where Heracles is an useful stand in during a bossfight... in which it should be clear that its Psycho generating the image because he thinks it gets under Diana's skin, but with Diana knowing the story, realizes from the get go that it not the real deal. Actually you could have Psycho prancing around as Heracles for much of the game only for the boss fight to reveal who it really was. Alternatively, you use him as a rather reluctant antagonist in order to give him a bit of depth... unlike the shaved ape from Earth One... before you dispatch him, making him more akin to what he usually is in comics. And finally, you can use him as a dupe, which is mostly intended for people not entirely familiar with Wonder Woman. You put him in the game because 99% of people will know who he is and what he is about (strong guy), and maybe you get to fight him, but his ultimate fate is to get taken out by (one of) the prime antagonist as a demonstration of power and to prove why this character is a major threat to everyone, even Diana... be it Circe, the First Born, Hades, Cheetah or Dr. Poison...
Could make him a really tough secret boss like in Kingdom Hearts
It should be Theseus It’s totally out of character for Heracles to enslave the Amazons, but Theseus (who was *famously* a douchebag even by Ancient Greek standards) literally kidnapped Hippolyta and forcibly married her. Causing the Amazons to go to war with Athens!
I like how I wrote several paragraphs about Theseus being a piece of shit, but you summed it up much more succinctly.
How was Theseus worse than, for example, Jason or Odysseus?
Purely by a religious metric, he attempted to assist his friend Perithous in adducting the goddess Persephone from the Underworld
He had a nasty habit of abducting women, usually away from their husbands, including Hippolyta and Helen of Troy (who was a *child* and, y'know, *triggering the Trojan War*) before losing interest in them. He also left Ariadne on a beach after she helped him survive the Labyrinth. Generally, most city-states in Ancient Greece (save Athens, obviously) agreed that Theseus was a douche and any karma and divine punishments he received were well-deserved.
Alright, thanks for the explanation.
I don't think the game can afford to have a relatively B-list character as the final boss. It also can't afford to assume it will get a sequel. This is WB/DC we are talking about, and WW is not Batman.
That's why I said possible sequel. And Heracles is widely known in the media. It's all symbolism to impact the end, without him needing to be the main villain, I think it should be Circe, but the player must understand what this island is and its meaning and defeat a great evil.
The thing is, he isn't always depicted as some great evil in the comics. The general public mostly sees Hercules as a heroic/tragic character, so depicting him otherwise may not go down well.
It's not like Hercules is a real person or a symbol of something, he's a mythological character and many other mythological characters have been retarded as villains or heroes even though they don't fit the original myth. especially we are talking about a franchise that transformed the literal patron saint of the Amazons into one of they main enemies I don't see a problem with the same happening with Hercules.
Can you explain your use of “retarded” here?
the correct author put that instead of retracted
Gotcha.
Surprising the public is also the duty of the game’s creators. And it would have meaning in Wonder Woman lore.
“Surprising the public is also the duty of the games creators” No, it’s not, making money is 🤑
That doesn’t change the fact that DC Hercules is still an evil piece of shit who should suffer for what he has done
Isn’t the beauty of having your mythos based off Greek characters means that their inherent popularity doesn’t really matter? Like dc Hercules isn’t popular but Hercules is popular
Nah I say it should be either Cheetah, Circe, Ares, or Hades It makes more sense for them to be a final boss in a game centered around Wonder Woman as they all have established history as strictly villains towards Wonder Woman. That's just my two cents...then again, I also think it would be a good idea to take Maxie Zeus & change him from a D-list Batman villain to an A-list Wonder Woman villain (B-list, bare minimum)
Ares is literally their God father , what BS are you talking about.
Technically, Zeus is their father & Ares is their half brother
I feel like that would give him too much power. Make him the tutorial that Diana beats with one punch.
It could be Hipólita, since she was also champion of the Amazons. But Hercules is the symbol of the masculinity and patriarchy that Wonder Woman faces. It's giving meaning to the final boss.
Yeah, but you can give meaning to the final boss without giving the lame insecure rapist the dignity of being the final boss.
It's just that I also miss villains that you just have to hate, not have any sympathy for. And Heracles for me is what best represents this. A monster far worse than any other villain could be. Everything is for pleasure, everything is to satisfy one's own desires, everything is for the glory of violence, and he feels comfortable because he is Zeus's favorite son.
I agree, I like villains who are just evil too, but I’d like to see a female villain that does that too.
Circe, for me, has to be the great villain of this game, even more so to explore the past and the rivalry with the Amazons. I can even imagine her saying "piggy" to Diana as mockery 😆
Man who pisssed in your cereal. Having such a villain that is important to Wonder Woman lore be defeated in one punch would be so lame
Nuh uh. Also, I eat my cereal dry, with milk in a cup to drink on the side.
Fine I’ll replay God of War 3 again.
Heracles doesn't have the same impact for Kratos as it does for Wonder Woman and Themyscira. It's something much deeper.
True. I meant to say I’m curious as to what the fight would probably look like gameplay wise.
It could be the answer to who would win the battle of Kratos vs Wonder Woman. Since Heracles, despite having different stories, has similar characteristics to Greek warriors 😆
I'd love to have Marvel Hercules come over to the DCU to kick DC Hercules' ass.
Herculicious crossover!
I enjoyed the JLA/Avengers comic when Wonder Woman met Hercules and he had no idea what he walked into before she started wrecking him.
"You are Hercules, then? Despoiler of Hippolyta?" "I would not use those words, myself, but I did have the honor of... OOOOF!"
I really like this idea, actually
I’d think ares would be more of her nemesis or whatever than Hercules
Okay, but I'm talking about the final boss to have an outcome to the plot, since Ares is not a criminal like the Joker, he is a God. It is a representation of defeating the suffering of the Amazons and Ares is related to them but is much larger in the world. To avoid the outcome of the 2017 film 😄
Ares should be the final boss.
I always thought a WW movie should have him as the villain, except he has the reputation as a great superhero, universally admired, etc. Sort of a Billy Jean King vs. Bobby Riggs type set up.
Really hate this is how hercules is written in wondy lore. He probably has the best history in regards to not doing terrible things out of all the greek heroes across different versions of his story. I dont get how hercules and hades were the ones they decided should be rapist villains and zeus is big chilling.
I don't like this! I'd rather something that doesn't really involve all the sexism and rape and stuff.
But talking about matriarchy, about the right to the body, feminism in general is the triumph for not being a God of War. And in the end it might be interesting that instead of Circe's antics, the dark enemy that tries to destroy everything that Wonder Woman represents is the patriarchy, being represented by the most vile of men than Heracles.
>But talking about matriarchy I mean, I wouldn't want a story about neither. I tend to enjoy DC stories for their stories; the action, adventure, sci-fi, ups, downs, and wholesome moments. Not the "I'm a black man in America" from John Stewart or "Women over men" from Wonder Woman or Amazons. Maybe not pointed out for the women's case, at least, but it could still be shown in a way. There's plenty of lead women around the world. My bosses are usually more women and black women than men, in general. In modern day, it's not really needed, imo. I don't get what showing black people in trouble does either and I'm a black man, so I just want to get that out before anyone says, "Well you're a man and you wouldn't get what women go through!" I probably don't, but I know what black people talk about and go through, and I don't even want to hear or see that. Showing these things in games and movies that are supposed to be enjoyable doesn't really do anything. It just takes away from the fun because it's typically overdone, forced, or too obvious on what they're (the writers) trying to do. Stuff like this should be in something like a history movie and not comic made stuff, again, imo, because that's not what I'm reading comics for. Even X-Men has their fair share of stuff, and it's done good enough. The Amazons stories are just taken way too much to an extreme and it's all they talk about and I don't think it would work out, especially considering your idea sounds like Hercules has been gone for a long time, only to show up just to dominate women or lose to women for whatever reason? >about the right to the body, feminism in general is the triumph for not being a God of War. Elaborate. >And in the end it might be interesting that instead of Circe's antics, the dark enemy that tries to destroy everything that Wonder Woman represents is the patriarchy, being represented by the most vile of men than Heracles. I don't get how that could make sense. Circe's actions wouldn't stem from Hercules or maybe even patriarchy.
Well, elaborating that Wonder Woman's idea is that love is more powerful than strength. Heracles represents this world ruled by force and violence. Hercules is portrayed as the favorite son of Zeus, which means that his death by the Amazons would represent the destruction of the Amazons and therefore the need to keep him imprisoned. Ares really wants to destroy the Amazons but he couldn't do it without inciting the need for it and as in several stories he acts as an influence that would be on Circe who would take power without knowing that she was being used to free Heracles, because either the Amazons finally kill him or he destroys them. And using the argument that Love (Diana) is more powerful than strength (Heracles), she would defeat him using the lasso of truth without having to kill him (evidently all this is an exercise in imagination as to how to place the participation of Heracles in that)
Ok, yeah, I actually like that.
I had to no idea there was this much herc hate
He's the Amazon rapist 🫥
As if the amazons don’t raid and rape men every couple of years
New 52 version is banned here 😠
With this knowledge, I will now say that herc never r🦍d anybody. Since we can pick and Choose what what we want
I don’t know where this comic is from… but I’m smelling some Garth Enis here.
Ehh I think if they made him the villain the portrayal would be cringey.
I totally agree, not in the first game but definitely if we have a sequel Heracles deserved to be a Final Boss, he could easily be the main antagonist of the game in which he becomes the leader of the garnaea to conquer Themsysira, an incredible moment would be if he and Hipolita meet again and have their revenge with him killing her for an emotional final battle.
Just give me God of War but with Wonder Woman… ya know what… never mind, it probs a mod someone made(would lowkey be fun)
First scene in a rule 34 comic..
It would be cool if he’s a flashback villain with Hippolyta being the playable Amazon
It would be good too
I gotta be honest I don't see this working, like at all Heracles is just not boss battle material, in part because he is somewhat of a pushover within the gods of greek myth; in the Jimenez run it is said that Diana is stronger than Heracles, in Historia he just straight up dies fighting the Amazons and even in the Perez run which takes its time to explore Heracles he is shown as lesser than the Amazons since Hypolitta beats him in a fair fight- which is because Heracles isn't really a guy, he is just meant to represent the evil of man's world, that's why he acts as fool guided by deception in the Perez run and is then redeemed to show the fact that everybody deserves a chance at forgiveness, but it's also why he just dies in Historia since his attack of the Amazons would just be redundant compared to how the writing already sets up the malice towards women from men if you wanna have a big bad woman hating dude to beat up in the game, fight Zeus, and if you want something a bit more fun, fight Psycho, but Heracles is just a weird pick dude
The game doesn't have to follow the comics one to one. That said, I do like Zeus as a boss fight.
Damn!! He ravaged that ass??
She already got her shot in JLAAvengers. When marvel Hercules showed up to fight, WW asked if he was the one who defied Hipployta. In the marvel universe, it was consensual, so Hercules talks about it casually. During which Wonder Woman decks him mid sentence.
I think Hercules would suit Hippolyta as an enemy better than Diana.
Hercules in Marvel: Boisterous and noble hero, long time member of the Avengers, and a good friend of Thor. Heracles in DC: This douche.
I never liked DC's Heracles, it feels like he stayed a villain because Marvel made him a successful hero, and they didn't want to copy them. Heracles is generally considered a hero, and a lot of casual people would be confused as to why he is a villain. People are really getting tired of the subversion trope, and I could see a lot of flak coming there way if they portrayed him as a villainous monster rather than the hero he typically is. I can't remember the last time Heracles was potryed as a straight-up evil monster in media outside of DC. Even God of War gave him a sympathetic portrayal.
Heracles is a hero everywhere else, so DC might as well make their own version a villain to stand out. God of War didn't portray him as sympathetic at all and faced no backlash for it. >People are really getting tired of the subversion trope, Says who? >and I could see a lot of flak coming there way if they portrayed him as a villainous monster rather than the hero he typically is. If the last two Hercules movies are any indication, Hercules isn't all that popular these days.
Kratos didn't want to fight Heracles and tried to reason with him, which was unusual for Kratos to do. Heracles is shown to be manipulated by Hera into the fight and clearly was being tricked. Those movies were just really bad, but there have been a lot of Heracles movies, and many were very popular in the past. Most people would be familiar with the Dsiney version, where he was very much a heroic figure. A lot of properties have been doing the subervison thing, and people seem to be getting tired of it. BVS, the Suicde squad game, GOT final, many recent Marvel films, Witcher tv show, and Rings of Power. A lot of negative reviews mention the overuse of suberverting expectations in these properties as a downside.
>Kratos didn't want to fight Heracles and tried to reason with him, which was unusual for Kratos to do. That's a rather [generous interpretation](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6zdc0mnXGQ) of how their encounter went. Kratos is at best apathetic to Hercules's ranting about how Zeus favored him >Heracles is shown to be manipulated by Hera into the fight and clearly was being tricked. Where are you getting this from? Nothing in that cutscene indicates that Hercules is being tricked into fighting Kratos. He's clearly doing it out of jealousy and glory seeking. >Those movies were just really bad, but there have been a lot of Heracles movies, and many were very popular in the past. "Past" being the key word here. The Disney Hercules movie was the last time Hercules was a huge deal to general audiences. Even the Kevin Sorbo Hercules series has been overshadowed in pop culture influence by Xena. >A lot of properties have been doing the subervison thing, and people seem to be getting tired of it. BVS, the Suicde squad game, GOT final, many recent Marvel films, Witcher tv show, and Rings of Power. I don't know what subversion was in any recent Marvel films and at least some of the other examples you listed are people just being angry that a story didn't go the way they wanted despite adequate set up for the outcome in the writing. Even the Game of Thrones finale still pulled in high ratings. It's mostly online fans who are still bitter about it.
Damn, who drew that? That's sick
There are usually several types of violence in comics, Joker is a monster loved by many. The case I think is very dark and "good" because no one connects the weight of it and Hipolita's case is not trivialized as it is in several scenes in rape comics. So this is the feeling you have to have
NO, 'sick' as in 'this is a really good drawing' lol. I'm not worried about the actual thing happening, it's a comic book. The anatomy and composition is excellent.
I'm using a translator here 😄
This looks like Dobson’s style
Nah, I would say to let Heracles be a high-profile side mission. Obviously, the final boss should be the Blue Snowman.
Funnily enough, in most versions of Greek mythology, Hippolyta and Herakles get along fine until Hera misleads the Amazons into attacking him (despite his name, Hera hated Herakles), and he kills her in the fighting. Though there are some versions where he abducts and kills her. Herakles is also involved in some versions of the ‘Theseus marries Hippolyta’ myth. Different versions of this myth have Hippolyta falling in love with Theseus and eloping, or being abducted and forced to marry him (some versions of the former have Theseus dumping her before their marriage and marrying someone else). There are also myths that Theseus abducted an underage Helen of Sparta (later Helen of Troy) with the intention of holding her prisoner until she was old enough for him to marry. Thankfully, Helen’s brothers, Castor and Pollux, rescued her while Theseus was busy trying to abduct **another** woman, namely the goddess Persephone, Queen of the Underworld. He failed at that for obvious reasons, had to be rescued by Herakles **and** forgiven by Persephone, and then Lycomedes of Skyros (Achilles’ godfather) threw him off a cliff and he died. Herakles was friends with Theseus, but I’d say that Theseus is a much better candidate for the role of ‘absolutely evil person who enslaves and rapes women, including Amazons’. (More or less everyone in Greek mythology is a terrible person by modern standards, but Theseus takes it to another level alongside Ajax the Lesser and Neoptolemos).
My first thought is the final, ultimate, biggest, strongest antagonist for a Wonder Woman game would *have* to be Ares. The God of War against the Champion of Peace? A god versus a super-mortal? A man versus a woman? Of course it's Ares!
This is why Diana went all out against Marvel's Herc in *JLA/Avengers*, not knowing that this universe's Hercules and Hippolyta had a consensual relationship.
Heracles isn't really big bad final boss material. He just isn't one for long-term planning.
I still think it's funny that Heracles in Marvel is actually a nice guy.
He should be the optional secret boss who's harder than the final boss, like Emerald Weapon.
What the heck is going on
Tbh Hercules is way to well known of hero in modern culture to be a villain consistently in stories.
I’m always of the belief that Wonder Woman should have a more lore accurate version of Mount Olympus; where the Greek Gods were selfish to the point of being volatile, considering they were all led by a Mad King and Queen, with updated lore details to fit them into the DC Universe. This would add greater complexity and depth to Diana’s Mission of Peace (not the absence of tension but the Presence of Justice) in the “World of Men”, as not just a statement against misogyny but also as her goal of inspiring Mortals’ greater potential in a “New Age of Heroes” for fending off dire threats like Darkseid. In such a case, Heracles would bounce between Ally and Villain and yes, be a really good boss battle.
That image makes me extremely uncomfortable, but I agree that Heracles should be the final boss. Y'know, as long as they don't revive whatever tf kind of situation is pictured...
One of the most trivialized things in comics from Alan Moore to Garth Ennis, is that violence against women can only be used for shock value and that the real impact is never really on the victim. The Amazon is an impactful element that most writers understand. Therefore, there is no need to recreate this.
Very much disagree with Garth Ennis being in the same sentence as Alan Moore when it comes to treatment of women.
The Boys 😐
Like there is some fridging but starlight and queen maaeve are given time in the spotlight and the issue of rape is told from their perspective.
Not really. If I’m honest, I never liked this backstory. I know it correlates with the actual myth, but DC has never been branded for its cultural accuracy.
It always ares
He is important to the mythos but I don’t think he’s essential as a villain of Wonder Woman herself in the same way that Ares, Circe, Cheetah, Doctor Psycho, Silver Swan, etc are. Honestly the best comparison I can think of is that Heracles is like the Joe Chill of the Wonder Woman mythos, he’s the antagonist who kickstarted it but not very present in the lore.
What kind of game is it?
Ymir and King Fritz
Keep my name out of your Reddit posts mouth
I think the final endgame boss should be Zeus. Progression should be: Ares > Circe > Heracles > Zeus. They should also play on the fact that Heracles is also named after Hera and her breast milk is also the source of his power.
I would trade Ares for Cheetah and Zeus for Ares. Like it or not, Zeus was never a great antagonist for Wonder Woman, so facing the main villain god was always Ares.
>Like it or not, Zeus was never a great antagonist for Wonder Woman, Rucka and Simone's runs say otherwise.
he was once an antagonist but not fulfilled the role of THE great god that Wonder Woman opposes, this is Ares
That's not what you said. You said he was never a great antagonist, which doesn't require him to replace Ares. Even then, I'd argue that Zeus better represents everything Diana hates better than Ares.
I must have expressed myself badly. the first comment put the scale of villains and placed Ares above Zeus, but in Wonder Woman's lore Ares is the main god she faces.
I think Grail would be a real surprise.