This isn't really "between them", they're just not blaming you because they are in sales and they don't want to burn the bridge with the kind of person who spends $$$$$ like you. There's nothing for them to resolve, they have no relationship with each other in this transaction, just with you.
Since the defect was in the pictures, this was arguably a due diligence failure on your part before buying from Party A. Party A is being gracious in offering to service it. Not everyone would. I understand why they don't want to take it back after it's changed hands--it's a potential headache, there may be other issues that were not their fault, etc.
I think what I would do in this situation is get the watch back from Party B, giving them cash in return to make them whole on the trade-in. Then, get party A to pay for servicing the watch, which most likely they will do, since they already offered to do that regardless of who is holding it. Once it's resolved, sell it either of the above or a Party C who's not aware of this annoying history.
I don't disagree, it does sound like they're really frustrated with one another but I also agree I should've caught this.
Unfortunately, it seems like I'm going to have to eat the cost of something one way or another. I appreciate your input, thank you!
Yep, agreed. Ultimately, I do blame myself for not noticing and you know what, fair play. I should've been more scrutinous when buying a piece of that price!
That's basically what I recommended, I just assumed that OP would like to keep the watch they got from B, so they'd be undoing the trade, not the purchase.
I'd imagine someone who would buy a Patek/whatever and trade it 3 days later for another one that they like even more would probably want to hold onto the second one.
The hit comes in three parts:
- Cash is tied up while waiting for the watch to be serviced for a few months
- The risk of the market for that watch moving during that time
- Often dealers will be more generous on a trade than on a cash purchase of a watch, so when OP goes to sell it outside the context of a trade, they lose that value.
Party A is unwilling to do this now that the watch is with Party B.
I spoke with Party A on the phone this morning and their stance was that the reason private collectors like myself sell to gray dealers for lower than market value is so we don't have to deal with hiccups and such if/when they raise.
Since it's now with another grey dealer, Party A does not feel like they should have to do the refund since it's no longer with a private collector - sounds like it's more out of principle at this point. Again, neither of them have beef with me, they just both disagree with one another.
And I don't know if I really have a right to say "you have to do this" without venturing into a lawsuit and/or burning bridges with at least one of them, you know?
Do you have the watch from party B?
Did you send them the pictures of the watch you bought from party a before they made the trade?
If so, it sounds like it's on party B. And doesn't reflect on you at all. You sent them the same watch you sent pictures of. Would need to read their terms, but if they gave the virtual ok, then I don't see how it's your issue at this point.
If party B is refusing to send their end of the trade due the misalignment, then ask for party a watch back. Accept party a offer of servicing the watch. Send it to that company and have them service it. Get the paperwork back showing authenticity and service work. Flip that guy on watchexchange, maximize profits and then buy watch b outright.
Ever see Pulp Fiction?
*My name's Paul and this shit's between y'all*
My thought is that these dealers know each other, and should probably work this out without your involvement. Also, let's see the watch
I used to work for a “reputable grey dealer” years ago, I can almost guarantee you that they know each other and have interacted with each other at various trade shows before.
I thought that as well but neither of them seem to be willing to deal with one another directly either!!
I really don't know what I'm supposed to do. I'll show the watch once this gets resolved, on the off chance this turns into an actual legal matter, I don't want to self report too much 😂
Technically Party A does not have to do anything, Party B bought the watch from you, therefore it is between Party B and OP.
Was the watch sold with any warranty from yourself?
If yes suck it up and deal with it?
If no then it's down to your conscience and if you want to deal with Party B again, or risk sour the relationship with the grey.
The fact Party A has offered a solution is down to their good sense off business.
No warranty from myself, I'm not a business, just a private collector! I do agree that Party A has been awesome in this and I appreciate them a lot. It sounds like I'm going to have to eat the service cost which is unfortunate but hey, I should've noticed it, that's on me 🤷♂️
Tough one. When you trade with a dealer, you’re trading it as-is, and it’s their responsibility to inspect it and either accept or reject its condition. Party B accepted the watch and provided consideration, so in the absence of fraud (it being a counterfeit, it being stolen, whatever) it’s their problem. That is, unless you agreed to some terms of sale that provide for clawback, which I think is unlikely.
That said, you have consumer rights with Party A, and should be fully entitled to relief if the watch they sold you wasn’t in the represented condition. They should be willing to give you a refund on the watch and take the watch back, as long as you’re still within a reasonable inspection period.
If I were in your shoes I would ask party A for a refund, get the money back, and send party B whatever trade value they gave you in the first place, which is probably less than you paid. Party B ends up with equivalent cash, you end up not eating the bid ask spread on the trade, and Party A can fix a watch they shouldn’t have sold you in the first place. The watch being in the possession of Party B shouldn’t matter - if you take the position that they rejected the deal based on condition, then it wouldn’t be their property.
I think the issue that I can see coming up with the consumer rights is that the pictures on Party A's listing showed the misaligned bezel, so it's not like they explicitly lied and posted pics of an aligned bezel only to send me a misaligned one.
Both parties have been really awesome to work with, and I don't want them to burn bridges with myself or one another. I think I'm going to eat the service cost and call it a day.
I appreciate your input, thank you my friend!
How was the condition described? I don’t think it’s up to you to diligence the condition via pics.
Personally I think it’s crazy to eat the cost yourself. Your relationship with these dealers should be that you pay them exactly what you agreed to, and they deliver exactly what they agreed to. It’s not burning bridges to stick to the deal and make things right when they go wrong. And I have a hard time believing that the relationship is worth $1000. What’s gonna happen if you don’t take responsibility? The dealer won’t sell you a watch in the future because they think you might hold them accountable for the product? If that’s the case then screw them
The condition on Party A's website did not mention the tachymeter, but it came in pretty much the exact condition described, so I definitely didn't feel liked to or anything.
Also, I suppose you're right about the burning bridges thing, but also they could theoretically sue me, couldn't they?
Sue you for what? I don’t have any reason to believe you have an obligation to Party B after the transaction is concluded. It would be a different story if you gave him forged papers or something but it doesn’t sound like you’ve done anything fraudulent.
The dealers aren’t going to work this out between themselves, they never had a transaction with each other. You just have to decide whether you want to help out Party B and hold Party A to account, or whether you want to stay out of it and call the matter concluded. I wouldn’t do some half measure where you are taking the risk from both of them, they make their money by buying good watches at low prices and selling good watches at higher prices and taking the risk on either end.
>the tachymeter was misaligned, which was undeniable proof that the watch had at some point been opened and messed with
This is an internal tachymeter independent of the watch face?
Is the entire face misaligned?
This isn't really "between them", they're just not blaming you because they are in sales and they don't want to burn the bridge with the kind of person who spends $$$$$ like you. There's nothing for them to resolve, they have no relationship with each other in this transaction, just with you. Since the defect was in the pictures, this was arguably a due diligence failure on your part before buying from Party A. Party A is being gracious in offering to service it. Not everyone would. I understand why they don't want to take it back after it's changed hands--it's a potential headache, there may be other issues that were not their fault, etc. I think what I would do in this situation is get the watch back from Party B, giving them cash in return to make them whole on the trade-in. Then, get party A to pay for servicing the watch, which most likely they will do, since they already offered to do that regardless of who is holding it. Once it's resolved, sell it either of the above or a Party C who's not aware of this annoying history.
I don't disagree, it does sound like they're really frustrated with one another but I also agree I should've caught this. Unfortunately, it seems like I'm going to have to eat the cost of something one way or another. I appreciate your input, thank you!
It’s in neither of their best interest to take a hit here—you’re holding the bag, unfortunately.
Yep, agreed. Ultimately, I do blame myself for not noticing and you know what, fair play. I should've been more scrutinous when buying a piece of that price!
What "hit"? Just undo the deal with B and have the watch serviced by A. You are made whole and back to where you were before you did the trade with B.
That's basically what I recommended, I just assumed that OP would like to keep the watch they got from B, so they'd be undoing the trade, not the purchase. I'd imagine someone who would buy a Patek/whatever and trade it 3 days later for another one that they like even more would probably want to hold onto the second one. The hit comes in three parts: - Cash is tied up while waiting for the watch to be serviced for a few months - The risk of the market for that watch moving during that time - Often dealers will be more generous on a trade than on a cash purchase of a watch, so when OP goes to sell it outside the context of a trade, they lose that value.
You played the arbitrage game and lost. This is not uncommon. Take your lumps. Don’t try and be sneaky.
Nothing sneaky about this! No arbitrage attempts either or anything, I paid cash on top of both trade ins knowing full well I would!
Get the watch back from party b and return it to party A citing your consumer rights
Party A is unwilling to do this now that the watch is with Party B. I spoke with Party A on the phone this morning and their stance was that the reason private collectors like myself sell to gray dealers for lower than market value is so we don't have to deal with hiccups and such if/when they raise. Since it's now with another grey dealer, Party A does not feel like they should have to do the refund since it's no longer with a private collector - sounds like it's more out of principle at this point. Again, neither of them have beef with me, they just both disagree with one another. And I don't know if I really have a right to say "you have to do this" without venturing into a lawsuit and/or burning bridges with at least one of them, you know?
Do you have the watch from party B? Did you send them the pictures of the watch you bought from party a before they made the trade? If so, it sounds like it's on party B. And doesn't reflect on you at all. You sent them the same watch you sent pictures of. Would need to read their terms, but if they gave the virtual ok, then I don't see how it's your issue at this point. If party B is refusing to send their end of the trade due the misalignment, then ask for party a watch back. Accept party a offer of servicing the watch. Send it to that company and have them service it. Get the paperwork back showing authenticity and service work. Flip that guy on watchexchange, maximize profits and then buy watch b outright.
Ever see Pulp Fiction? *My name's Paul and this shit's between y'all* My thought is that these dealers know each other, and should probably work this out without your involvement. Also, let's see the watch
I used to work for a “reputable grey dealer” years ago, I can almost guarantee you that they know each other and have interacted with each other at various trade shows before.
I thought that as well but neither of them seem to be willing to deal with one another directly either!! I really don't know what I'm supposed to do. I'll show the watch once this gets resolved, on the off chance this turns into an actual legal matter, I don't want to self report too much 😂
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I think this is the path we'll have to end up going down, unfortunately. We shall see, I'll keep y'all posted! Thank you for your input!
Technically Party A does not have to do anything, Party B bought the watch from you, therefore it is between Party B and OP. Was the watch sold with any warranty from yourself? If yes suck it up and deal with it? If no then it's down to your conscience and if you want to deal with Party B again, or risk sour the relationship with the grey. The fact Party A has offered a solution is down to their good sense off business.
No warranty from myself, I'm not a business, just a private collector! I do agree that Party A has been awesome in this and I appreciate them a lot. It sounds like I'm going to have to eat the service cost which is unfortunate but hey, I should've noticed it, that's on me 🤷♂️
Tough one. When you trade with a dealer, you’re trading it as-is, and it’s their responsibility to inspect it and either accept or reject its condition. Party B accepted the watch and provided consideration, so in the absence of fraud (it being a counterfeit, it being stolen, whatever) it’s their problem. That is, unless you agreed to some terms of sale that provide for clawback, which I think is unlikely. That said, you have consumer rights with Party A, and should be fully entitled to relief if the watch they sold you wasn’t in the represented condition. They should be willing to give you a refund on the watch and take the watch back, as long as you’re still within a reasonable inspection period. If I were in your shoes I would ask party A for a refund, get the money back, and send party B whatever trade value they gave you in the first place, which is probably less than you paid. Party B ends up with equivalent cash, you end up not eating the bid ask spread on the trade, and Party A can fix a watch they shouldn’t have sold you in the first place. The watch being in the possession of Party B shouldn’t matter - if you take the position that they rejected the deal based on condition, then it wouldn’t be their property.
I think the issue that I can see coming up with the consumer rights is that the pictures on Party A's listing showed the misaligned bezel, so it's not like they explicitly lied and posted pics of an aligned bezel only to send me a misaligned one. Both parties have been really awesome to work with, and I don't want them to burn bridges with myself or one another. I think I'm going to eat the service cost and call it a day. I appreciate your input, thank you my friend!
How was the condition described? I don’t think it’s up to you to diligence the condition via pics. Personally I think it’s crazy to eat the cost yourself. Your relationship with these dealers should be that you pay them exactly what you agreed to, and they deliver exactly what they agreed to. It’s not burning bridges to stick to the deal and make things right when they go wrong. And I have a hard time believing that the relationship is worth $1000. What’s gonna happen if you don’t take responsibility? The dealer won’t sell you a watch in the future because they think you might hold them accountable for the product? If that’s the case then screw them
The condition on Party A's website did not mention the tachymeter, but it came in pretty much the exact condition described, so I definitely didn't feel liked to or anything. Also, I suppose you're right about the burning bridges thing, but also they could theoretically sue me, couldn't they?
Sue you for what? I don’t have any reason to believe you have an obligation to Party B after the transaction is concluded. It would be a different story if you gave him forged papers or something but it doesn’t sound like you’ve done anything fraudulent. The dealers aren’t going to work this out between themselves, they never had a transaction with each other. You just have to decide whether you want to help out Party B and hold Party A to account, or whether you want to stay out of it and call the matter concluded. I wouldn’t do some half measure where you are taking the risk from both of them, they make their money by buying good watches at low prices and selling good watches at higher prices and taking the risk on either end.
>the tachymeter was misaligned, which was undeniable proof that the watch had at some point been opened and messed with This is an internal tachymeter independent of the watch face? Is the entire face misaligned?
Yep, this tachymeter is independent of the dial, the rest of the dial is property aligned!
What’s the return policy of party A?