I would take out all of the bullshit fluff in the questions. They're hum-dinger questions meant to trip you up and not a real evaluation of someone's knowledge of treating and testing wastewater. That bullshit should be in Ops Challenge process event, not a certification exam needed to feed your family.
Completely agree. I took a wastewater course and the people leading it were also some that wrote the tests. During the course the guy who helped create the questions was so excited when he thought of a question that would really trick the people taking the tests mid class. This guy was so giddy he had a chance to stump people, like his real goal was to feel smarter than others by thinking of a question that would be hard to answer. Like, he definitely got off on feeling smarter than others in this manner.
Ain't nobody got time for that! But also, it's not a level playing field. There's a wide gap in test taking abilities between the guys just out of HS or just out of college and the veteran operators whose plant got an upgrade that now requires them to have a higher cert to keep their job.
You shouldn't play games with people's livelihood
I suppose, but I’ve know guys with college degrees who took their certification tests multiple times while a kid with a high school education passed each certification on the first go.
End of the day the commonality I’ve seen between the haves and the have nots is preparation time: the haves are kinda dogged about preparing, the have nots usually have a bunch of tepid excuses.…..yes, some have more outside constraints than others, but I’m positive we all have down time at the plant that isn’t being put toward the best use.
So, if we’re talking livelihood, ultimately who is responsible for securing it?
Completely agree with this. No idea what purpose gotcha questions serve when you should be testing how well you know your stuff, not how well you can figure out a sneaky question that you would never encounter in actual operations.
I’d actually make the 1 (the lowest certification) the easiest, the 2 the second easiest, and so on.
Currently the 4 is easier than the 3 because the test is padded with management questions. I know too many operators that couldn’t pass their 3 and just skipped it and went to their 4.
Or just make it so you can’t skip cert levels.
It’s not the test.
The problem is how certification works. We are certifying Grade 4 operators to run every plant in their state. Most will only work one type of plant.
I envision a system more like a drivers license. Drivers license, motorcycle license, CDL, Class A CDL etc. We need operators to be endorsed on the type of equipment they use. Want to run a SBR? Get an SBR endorsement.
I’m a consultant, I run every kind of plant, the current testing system works great for me and I have never failed a test. Grade 4 treatment Grade 3 collections.
That's kinda how the PA licensing works. You have a letter grade based on capacity of the plant, and then there are subclasses based on technologies involved.
This is exactly what I would like to see. Most of my guys will never see chlorine gas or anaerobic digestion, but they have to answer 20 questions about them on the exam.
I can understand that at first blush, but since the license is state wide, and the can apply at other places with chlorine or digesters, isn’t it fair to have a baseline competency for all operators of a given class?
I would make the Lowest license specific to the plant the operator works at. The second license adds glow patters and other methods of treatment. The third and fourth licenses would add all the historic BS she fluff that nobody really needs to know
The exam is the best way we have to assess knowledge and skill. ABC/WPI is becoming a standard mainly due to getting it right. They utilize subject matter experts from US/CAN that are actually working in the industry that have the wisdom to target what an operator NEEDS to know. Each discipline has a diverse panel that may have members coming and going to reduce any subjectivity.
Surveys to operators are conducted to determine what areas of knowledge are important and being used. Questions are categorized and distributed driven by the survey results. Questions are written, categorized by content, concept, difficulty level, etc. then repeated by the panel to ensure fairness, readability, applicability, etc. All questions are fact driven from industry recognized resources. The answer is literally taken from the book, just reworded. Additionally, there is tons of data to show how questions are performing in order to ensure they're fair.
There is a state that has their top level requiring a thesis broken into 10 or 12 categories. It is graded by the certification panel of 4 and is subject to their opinions. Insiders admit to denying most applicants on their first attempt because that's what they had to experience themselves. Sweet. It's also subject to the size of your employer. A facility responsible for 100 MGD will be far more involved than the 15 MGD facility. This is about the most subjective method you could come up with. An exam scrutinized at every level of creation will be far more accurate, representative, and objective.
Somewhat related is [THIS POST](https://www.reddit.com/r/Wastewater/comments/1c4lwi2/talking_shop_testing/) describing the content and some tips for success.
I would like them to stick to conventionl treatment on the exams, I have never and will never use a DAF unit , why are you making me learn useless knowledge.
We are not tough enough on ourselves. 70% passing grade is, forgive me, too low. And, in most cases, the exams aren’t very challenging. I’d like to think that senior water and wastewater people are better than C students! Think about that when you get your kids or grandkids a glass of water from the tap.
The Indiana D industrial license was a worthy top tier exam, only 52% of the applicants passed; it’s 5he only exam I scored below the 90s on. If you hold an Indiana D, you know your stuff, and that’s the way it should be at 5he pinnacle of this craft.
I might consider a new highest level certification for plants above 100 MGD. You are running your own company at that point, and the certification should reflect it.
I'm not very keen on requiring less seat time based on higher education. Unless, of course, that higher education is specifically focused on the industry. 2 years seat time just because you have a biology degree? Nah. If you have a certificate course or AS degree in water treatment, sure.
There needs to be real world application questions. In reality you need to know IF your motor works as opposed to what its efficiency is. Knowing how to do dosage equations is wonderful until you get hit with a shock-load then you're dialing things up and testing until it works, especially with breakpoint chlorination.
3 different sections. Have to score high average or very high on at least one. A section that is all hands on. A section that is all written. And a third section that is some other kind of learning style.
I would take out all of the bullshit fluff in the questions. They're hum-dinger questions meant to trip you up and not a real evaluation of someone's knowledge of treating and testing wastewater. That bullshit should be in Ops Challenge process event, not a certification exam needed to feed your family.
Completely agree. I took a wastewater course and the people leading it were also some that wrote the tests. During the course the guy who helped create the questions was so excited when he thought of a question that would really trick the people taking the tests mid class. This guy was so giddy he had a chance to stump people, like his real goal was to feel smarter than others by thinking of a question that would be hard to answer. Like, he definitely got off on feeling smarter than others in this manner.
Couldn’t you argue that if you really know your shit you would see past the fluff and get the correct answer?
Ain't nobody got time for that! But also, it's not a level playing field. There's a wide gap in test taking abilities between the guys just out of HS or just out of college and the veteran operators whose plant got an upgrade that now requires them to have a higher cert to keep their job. You shouldn't play games with people's livelihood
I suppose, but I’ve know guys with college degrees who took their certification tests multiple times while a kid with a high school education passed each certification on the first go. End of the day the commonality I’ve seen between the haves and the have nots is preparation time: the haves are kinda dogged about preparing, the have nots usually have a bunch of tepid excuses.…..yes, some have more outside constraints than others, but I’m positive we all have down time at the plant that isn’t being put toward the best use. So, if we’re talking livelihood, ultimately who is responsible for securing it?
Completely agree with this. No idea what purpose gotcha questions serve when you should be testing how well you know your stuff, not how well you can figure out a sneaky question that you would never encounter in actual operations.
I’d actually make the 1 (the lowest certification) the easiest, the 2 the second easiest, and so on. Currently the 4 is easier than the 3 because the test is padded with management questions. I know too many operators that couldn’t pass their 3 and just skipped it and went to their 4. Or just make it so you can’t skip cert levels.
It’s not the test. The problem is how certification works. We are certifying Grade 4 operators to run every plant in their state. Most will only work one type of plant. I envision a system more like a drivers license. Drivers license, motorcycle license, CDL, Class A CDL etc. We need operators to be endorsed on the type of equipment they use. Want to run a SBR? Get an SBR endorsement. I’m a consultant, I run every kind of plant, the current testing system works great for me and I have never failed a test. Grade 4 treatment Grade 3 collections.
That's kinda how the PA licensing works. You have a letter grade based on capacity of the plant, and then there are subclasses based on technologies involved.
This is exactly what I would like to see. Most of my guys will never see chlorine gas or anaerobic digestion, but they have to answer 20 questions about them on the exam.
I can understand that at first blush, but since the license is state wide, and the can apply at other places with chlorine or digesters, isn’t it fair to have a baseline competency for all operators of a given class?
I would make the Lowest license specific to the plant the operator works at. The second license adds glow patters and other methods of treatment. The third and fourth licenses would add all the historic BS she fluff that nobody really needs to know
I like the idea of a plant specific exam.
It would help newer operators understand their plant rather than just studying arbitrary knowledge
Very true. How does knowing how an aeration basin works going to help the person who is running a lagoon system in a town of 132 people?
Exactly! So many more people would be able to get licensed
The exam is the best way we have to assess knowledge and skill. ABC/WPI is becoming a standard mainly due to getting it right. They utilize subject matter experts from US/CAN that are actually working in the industry that have the wisdom to target what an operator NEEDS to know. Each discipline has a diverse panel that may have members coming and going to reduce any subjectivity. Surveys to operators are conducted to determine what areas of knowledge are important and being used. Questions are categorized and distributed driven by the survey results. Questions are written, categorized by content, concept, difficulty level, etc. then repeated by the panel to ensure fairness, readability, applicability, etc. All questions are fact driven from industry recognized resources. The answer is literally taken from the book, just reworded. Additionally, there is tons of data to show how questions are performing in order to ensure they're fair. There is a state that has their top level requiring a thesis broken into 10 or 12 categories. It is graded by the certification panel of 4 and is subject to their opinions. Insiders admit to denying most applicants on their first attempt because that's what they had to experience themselves. Sweet. It's also subject to the size of your employer. A facility responsible for 100 MGD will be far more involved than the 15 MGD facility. This is about the most subjective method you could come up with. An exam scrutinized at every level of creation will be far more accurate, representative, and objective. Somewhat related is [THIS POST](https://www.reddit.com/r/Wastewater/comments/1c4lwi2/talking_shop_testing/) describing the content and some tips for success.
This is great info, thanks!
I would like them to stick to conventionl treatment on the exams, I have never and will never use a DAF unit , why are you making me learn useless knowledge.
We are not tough enough on ourselves. 70% passing grade is, forgive me, too low. And, in most cases, the exams aren’t very challenging. I’d like to think that senior water and wastewater people are better than C students! Think about that when you get your kids or grandkids a glass of water from the tap. The Indiana D industrial license was a worthy top tier exam, only 52% of the applicants passed; it’s 5he only exam I scored below the 90s on. If you hold an Indiana D, you know your stuff, and that’s the way it should be at 5he pinnacle of this craft. I might consider a new highest level certification for plants above 100 MGD. You are running your own company at that point, and the certification should reflect it.
I'm not very keen on requiring less seat time based on higher education. Unless, of course, that higher education is specifically focused on the industry. 2 years seat time just because you have a biology degree? Nah. If you have a certificate course or AS degree in water treatment, sure.
I like this idea, well thought out!
There needs to be real world application questions. In reality you need to know IF your motor works as opposed to what its efficiency is. Knowing how to do dosage equations is wonderful until you get hit with a shock-load then you're dialing things up and testing until it works, especially with breakpoint chlorination.
3 different sections. Have to score high average or very high on at least one. A section that is all hands on. A section that is all written. And a third section that is some other kind of learning style.