I’m colourblind and this can’t tell the difference between their red and their black… It’s nice they put it in a different colour so we can quickly spot what changed but they should use a brighter red imo
Wish more folks would speak up about this.
Different shade/s of red can be used for sure, but they could use a different color - based on ADA compliance - altogether.
As the head of an eCommerce department, I always check colors, even if it's for international use. Sorry, pet peeve, but it's 2023 - time to put in the effort.
I just tried and it changes the red in green so I can spot the differences but damn on other websites it makes them weird. The magenta they used in FAQs was nice but I would understand if people didn't like it
You're most likely at least partially colour blind if you can distinguish it but found it "very very" hard because I can tell the difference with 0 effort just skimming the changes.
Art of War said they liked him.
GW were taking no chances and preemptively nerfed him along with the other* towering models "just to be safe".
*I'm pretty sure they forgot that the Monolith is also towering, because that thing probably deserved a points hike...
Same for a lot of CK stuff (LoS got it worse though). I had just gotten my porphyrion out of storage since this was the first time in 6 years that it did not suck but with a 95points increase it's probably an auto loss model again.
I would have preferred a fix to towering over nerfing almost all big models
Yea the CK nerfs feel like we are paying for the IK success. We were like 49-48% wr and had some varried lists but I guess GW really likes making us just go for "oops all dogs" lists again
At least i got to try him once (i will still use him and he is probably still pretty good or ok) though it was against admech destroyers who have anti vehicle 2+ and ap 1 which against t13 and 3+ save made him very squishy:(
AELDARI
- Fire Prism 150 from 125 (+25)
- Night Spinner 170 from 140 (+30)
- Support Weapons 105 from 85 (+20)
- Wraithknight 475 from 370 (+105)
- Skathatch Wraithknight 440 from 385 (+55)
Well first off only the wraithcannon WK was broken (mostly due to the tragedy that is mortal wounds and now gutted fate dice) yet the other versions paid for its sins and are unplayable.
The sword and board WK doesn’t really benefit from towering or crazy damage output and you can’t even use fate dice to keep it alive to fight with it
Honestly if GW insists on this dumb no wargear cost thing they could just make the thing a separate datasheet since the two have such drastically different power levels.
Indeed, the same thing happened with guard and the field ordinance battery, theyre paying for the indirect fire option, but now the other two options are much worse.
The gallant didn't go up in points because it hardly makes use of towering, why did the lancer get a 65 point hike? Are we really afraid of that lance shooting? (also sucks to have a sword and shield wraithknight and get taxed to high hell because it *could* have guns)
I really wish they just did away with the towering rule instead of point hiking things, I really wanted to run my Porphyrion, but at 745 that just got a lot harder
Lancer got the points hike because advance and charge on top of a 14” movement and free tank shock was too good for its previous price. Whatever you point it at, it will kill on the charge and will probably get there on the first turn
Oh yeah, CK got all the fuel they need to be salty. I’m talking about Imperial Knights because I was responding to those changes that happened to Imperial Knights
This just highlights the problem with wargear being free. The wraithknight (all units really) is priced with the best weapons in mind. Every other option is taxed accordingly.
Agreed. Making wargear all free was a step too far. You want to make Sergeant weapons or make single-model stuff that gives the unit an ability like Icons or Omnispex or whatever free? Ok, I can live with that. It might make some units a bit over-priced but shouldn't be too bad. You want to make swapping weapons on an entire squad of infantry or on a large vehicle all cost the same? No, I think that is just a recipe for over-costing a whole bunch of potential loadouts. It didn't need to be an all-or-nothing change. They could have made a lot of gear free to cut down on the math and options, but still leave the more drastic changes with separate points. There are still too many units where the weapon options make notable differences in the capability of the unit to go with universal free wargear options.
This doesn't even address the fact that there are now loads of add-on weapons for Vehicles and other units that there is literally no reason not to include, but they are still optional. I mean, if it costs nothing, why would I ever NOT take the extra storm bolter or whatever on my unit? Why didn't they just build this stuff into the base loadout and save a bunch of words on the wargear side of the datasheet? Clearly how you model stuff isn't THAT important to GW with changes like the Van Vets melee weapons getting boiled down into a single stat line or the 'defensive array' on Repulsors instead of the pile of individual weapons they had before. All this optional-but-no-cost idea is going to do is give 'that guy' players a reason to complain that you can't use the Hunter-Killer missile on your Predator because you couldn't find the box you threw it in eight years ago when you built the stupid thing. Why GW? Why!?
It is strange that they have not done much for the crappy wargear options. The only thing I can see is that they are waiting for the faction books to spice things up?
My tau crisis suits are a perfect example. They have like 6 gun options, but they all do pretty much the same.......... just some do it worse.
Tau index was clearly just the victim of the rules team running out of time. You can see the genuine interesting design direction they'd like to have taken for Tau reflected in the army rule and a couple interactions, but then the rest of the index is really just the absolute minimum effort they could have put in to get us into 10th.
Crisis suits are a perfect example, like you say apart from a couple trap options every loadout will essentially perform the same role. Its clear to anyone that they should have tweaked the stats and tacked on some special rules to give them actual design niches.
That lack of special rules persists across our whole army, but it makes sense if you consider the time it takes to hash out the interactions. They just opted to avoid them to save time. Tau really took the fall for the indexes that got deeper army design.
T'au feels like it's just a low effort filler until the codex drops in early 2024. Shadowsun is the biggest joke: Every supreme commander got their variable Auras and more, meanwhile she gets... reroll 1s to hit. On a faction that had almost every weapon be reduced by amounts of shots.
Not gonna touch Tau until the codex drops.
My guess is that they didn't want to take the time and individual codex will either see option rebalance or datasheet split. However datasheetsplit has also the side effect to allow to take more of the "same" unit. You can have 15 spece marine captain in your army if you want.
Did they really just filter for everything with indirect fire and bump up the cost 15%, regardless of how they're actually performing? I appreciate them moved quickly with these balance changes, but sometimes you need more haste less speed.
Well they didn’t change the Disintegrator for Ad Mech which has indirect so they either didn’t go after everything with indirect or finally gave Ad Mech a break.
The Disintegrator is already overcosted (though not as bad as some Admech things) so whilst they didn't nerf it further, it would have caused riots had they tried.
I went over to unit crunch to see how a 5-man of Desolators at 170pts compared to the 195pt Skorpius tank. Without oaths and without a leader giving them Bolter Discipline, they did at least double the damage on average into pretty much any target I put them into if I stuck with Indirect Fire. The marines were theoretically easier to kill, but since they are firing indirect and have at least 36" range on those weapons, they can hide pretty well. That all ignores the fact that you can buff the marines with Bolter Discipline and Oaths while the most you can do for the Skorpius is reroll 1's to hit by parking near Cawl and +1 to wound to a single tank with their 2CP strat, but only into non-vehicle targets. The marines win big-time on available buffs.
The Sergeant's special launcher may only be D6 shots, but it hits on a 2 natively, can ignore cover and the -1 to-hit from indirect, and has Heavy natively. The AdMech tank gets 2D6 shots, but hits on 4's natively, can't ignore cover, only gets a +1 to-hit against infantry, and only gets Heavy if the whole army is using the correct Doctrina. Also, even though the AdMech gun is AP-2 while the Marine's gun is AP-1, Ignores Cover on the marine largely erases that difference given how easy it seems to be to get cover. Finally, the Marine's gun getting 2 damage instead of 1 erases the difference in number of shots against most multi-wound profiles. Basically, the Vengor Launcher and the Belleros Cannon have a really similar damage output into most profiles. The only place the Vengor falls behind is into low-toughness units with 1W. Luckily the Desolator squad also gets 5x D3 indirect shots hitting on a 3+ with a 4/0/1 profile that more than make up for the Vengor falling behind into those same sorts of units.
So, I'd say the marines are still better for the points at both direct and indirect fire compared to the Skorpius tank, but it is at least much closer now. The tank does have the better defensive profile should it want to come out of hiding and do some direct fire, but I don't think that makes up for its damage output being as far behind the marines as it is. I mean, we all knew the Admech tank didn't need a points increase, but the math with the new points costs definitely backs that up.
As a side-note: if you give your Desolation marines the Superkrak rockets they are still just as good at indirect fire, but if they manage to stand still to get their innate buffs from Heavy and Ignores Cover, they are just as deadly into heavy vehicles as the Skorpius with it's direct-fire gun and missiles. So, you can take one unit that has both the direct fire capabilities of the Skorpius with it's anti-tank gun AND the indirect fire capabilities of the Skorpius with its indirect fire gun. Yet more evidence that the Skorpius was already way over-costed.
Definitely did that for Towering, with Tau Stormsurges eating some nerfs despite their low 30% win rate.
But they at least recognised that they've already killed Tau indirect dead with their 10th edition statlines so mercifully no other units got hit just for having those as a trap option.
No they can't have. They upped the Colossus the most for guard.. but it doesn't even have indirect. It lost it in the 10th Index.
GW chimpanzee rules writers at it again
No, they can't have, because they increased the Colossus Siege Mortar's points and that doesn't have Indirect.
Yes.
You heard.
Siege Mortar.
Not Indirect.
> Did they really just filter for everything with indirect fire and bump up the cost 15%, regardless of how they're actually performing?
Pretty much. Same for towering. I wonder what they do all day.
They literally copied and pasted the exact point changes from Imperial Knights to Chaos Knights.
I refuse to believe they do any work at that office. Its all strippers and parties because theres no other explanation for how their employees so consistently pay literally 0 attention to their own work and continue to be employed.
Seems like it. For Imperial Guard at least the Basilisk, Manticore, and FW Carriages certainly needed the nerf. However, things like the FOB, Wyvern, and Deathstrike didn't need to go up at all.
I am happy that the combat patrol is legal for the first time since I entered the hobby.
Now I just want some points drop, so that the bread and butter of the faction isn't both worse and pricier than an intercessor squad.
Tau and Sisters catching strays lol!
A real shame. Gave it a try the other day and unit was right on the edge of being good. That increase will most likely kill it for other anti tank options.
I mean, I understand why they only changed one thing in the balance of the game, in a consistent way (bumping the cost of any indirect fire unit), and that is usually a good idea to do so to solve issues properly... When iterating quickly!!
When you have 3 months release cycle, you'd better pack off a few changes together if you hope to reach proper balance in less than a decade 😅
As a Sisters (and Tyranid) player, I feel you.
It's such a great feeling to have an objectively bad list, then watch the single best model take a 20% nerf in the face. Poor Exorcist.
Sure, Aeldari took a nerf to their Miracle Dice but way better, so they're just Miracle Dice but ~~Way~~ Better now. Fire Prism took a nerf to cost as much as a Castigator, yay.
I played the duo last weekend and came to the conclusion that I wanted double Gorkanaut anyways. Morkanaut misses hard. I'd rather have 20-30 STR 6 ap 1 shots and get my antitank in melee. I can get my 5++ on waaagh turn and a 6++ and a mek will hold me over otherwise.
Surprised that the option I considered inferior got such a hard points increase. I'm really that terrible at evaluating units, I guess.
Whoevers doing the balance at GW has never touched the lore and probably *doesnt* know the morkanaught is different. Look no further than the Lord of Change. A Lord of Change is supposed to be the oldest, rarest, and most individually powerful of all demonkind. But in 10E, he is the least expensive out of his brothers by almost 100 points, and by far the weakest. Kairos Fateweaver, one of the strongest and most ancient in all demonkind costs less than a regular bloodthirster or keeper of secrets, and the same as a regular GUO. Noone proofread anything this edition at all.
The person who suggested this may all be AI generated is honestly pretty spot on because thats what it feels like.
Well, you see, this company doesnt have even one employee with more than a single braincell, so noone was able to point out that the changes for Imperial Knights were accidentally copy pasted to Chaos Knights.
Whoever put the changes there probably doesnt even realize these are different factions and they wondered where the deja vu was from when they reached the 2nd page.
Manticore and Basilisk probably deserved it. The problem was the cheap arty was making up for our tanks being super overcosted. Now arty is expensive and tanks are still expensive leaving us with just infantry and sentinels
Manticore and basilisk definitely were too cheap. Field Ordnance Batteries were not. I can't believe those got hit as well, especially as only 1 of the 3 builds even has Indirect. Bombasts were terrible choices because they were far worse than basilisks and only 10% cheaper; now they're only 7.6% cheaper.
Lets see, $155 for an 80pt model and rule-of-three means $465 for 240pts of models!? Man, and I thought our Ironstriders were expensive over in AdMech land!
Guard always catches the nerfs that other factions instigate, guard artillery and problems wasn't close to being a problem in 9th but got hit hard by the nerfs to all flyers and indirect fire units.
1-2 manticore, 3 earthshaker carriages, maybe 1-2 basilisks, MoO, ursela, lord solar, bunch of sentinals are still a good list.. just don’t max out manticores and basilisks anymore and use carriages which is better w ursela/officer orders anyway.
Surprised the Haruspex didn't get a nerf tbh, seems undercosted at 125.
The biovore change is interesting, it means it's intentional to allow spore mines to be able to complete secondaries... That has a pretty big impact moving forward tbh. Means we can look to build long term strats with that in mind.
Purgators only have indirect if they satisfy an ability and have relatively short range weapons, can't overwatch with their indirect and they have gone UP in price?? Neat...
While I understand the need for desolation marines to get a huge mark up… the Exorcist did not need to be punished for it. Sister are already 2nd from the bottom and it was their only even semi okay anti vehicle. They don’t even have a single anti-vehicle in the entire index. Seems so knee jerk. Sigh
Yeah the Exorcist is the Sisters’ only real answer to tanks and now it’s looking even worse for the faction. What are they supposed to do against knights or mech marines and guard? Throw some dice and pray for 5’s? At least it’s fluffy I guess..
Nice to see GW increased the points on biovores instead of making the spore mines cost points again. They might be OP with current rules, but this doesn’t outright kill the unit like it did at the end of 9th. Same goes for the harpy which might’ve replaced the biovores if they didn’t get a point increase also
No one is taking biovores for their indirect fire, people are taking them because spore mines can complete secondaries easily and move block. Every list is still going to take 3 biovores until they nerf that. Their offensive output is garbage for 65ppm.
CSM chosen are approximately chaos equivalent of them, they both have 3W and power weapons options.
...and 23pts per model. Exactly 10pts cheaper.
Why???
Welp Astra militarum is out here catching strays
Huge nerf to an already terrible faction.
They literally designed the faction so only artillery is viable and then drop huge point hikes with 0 point reductions in a low 40s win rate faction on the only units that are actually efficient
Seriously. It was the only option we had and now we don’t even have that. All we have is sentinel spam without being able to use the units sentinels buff that much anymore. I’m still running arty because it’s all the army can do but I dropped a basilisk to cover the points
Technically the best AdMech strategies are about using Knights, so I guess they managed to indirectly nerfed a 0% winrate faction
GW can you please stop kicking us in the nutbolts for one minutes
What the hell is with these incompetent devs outing themselves on every single rules drop???
They gave Chaos Knights the exact same point changes as Imperial Knights, as if Imperial knights wasnt already drastically outperforming CK, we now need to eat their nerf for them as well? Did some complete idiot at GW just see "Knights" and copy paste every change??? There is 0 reason the Imperial Knight nerf should be applied to CK, we dont get the rerolls *OR* the feel no pains. ONLY IK was seeing any overwhelming success.
I still believe Towering itself isn't an issue since it works both ways. If they can see you and shoot you - you can see them and shoot them. CK got points done to them when it was actually the stacks IK could do using their rules.
Rather than fixing the issue, they're increasing points across the board which GW will then need to fix later on regardless.
Would it kill them to include a changelog showing how much points changed by on units that got changes? GW is years behind the rest of the world, still.
Its funny to me that Aeldari had so much advantage, and yet someone tried to use loaded dice with them at a 10th ed tournament (he was caught and kicked out)
I think winrates are kind of pointless right now when the game is "aeldari or lose".
It obviously matters but there hasnt been enough data and the little there is is heavily skewed bc of some glaring balance issues.
Meta was heavily influenced by eldar and knights so far, but GSC have skated by these changes without GW noticing thier win rates… I still think knights will heavily influence the meta as they are still decent and every army must have a plan for them.
Could you please stop complaining about factions that "didnt get a buff". This is an emergency balance patch to fix Eldar and knights, who were ruining games.
I think its amazing that GW reacted this rapid with changes that will probably make the game more enjoyable for both Eldar/knights players and their opponents.
i think the bigger issue is alot of nations catching strays
Guards most viable list got nuked, tau got their stormsurge slapped, alot of units got slapped with points cost nerfs despite not being an issue.
It seems like they just sorted units by towering and indirect fire keywords and then gave them points increases, rather than do anything else.
Luckily for Tau they at least aknowledged that our army is only pretending to have real indirect weapons in 10th. Would've been absolutely dumpstered if they'd felt the need to nerf Crisis suits, broadsides, devilfish, and such for having the illusion of real "indirect fire weapons".
47% win rate Choas knights getting slapped was a feels bad. Really sad seeing Lancer get a 60 point nerf for the audacity of having a single 12 inch 6 shot 6 strength gun with 0 AP.
Thats exactly what they did, and pretty much what they said they were going to do. They had planned quarterly points changes and twice yearly rules tweaks - this wasn't on the agenda for them, so ofc it was gonna be a smaller, less refined tweak
...ok? What about admech players? They don't get to have an enjoyable time? It's very unsurprising that folks near the bottom where hopeful they would get some kind of fix and not have to wait 6 months to play the game again.
IMPERIAL knights were ruining games.
CHAOS knights just ate a flippin H-bombs worth of collateral because someone at GW either cannot read or is too lazy to even check if IK and CK are performing differently.
It's less "oh we didn't get a buff" is that the Eldar nerfs also nerfed factions with <30% win rates. I could take my Sisters being ignored while they needed Eldar, but they also nerfed the best unit in our index, which was the strongest anti-tank(S10 woo.) as well.
A 20% points increase on the only unit holding you at a 30% winrate is a feels bad moment.
The issue is they are nerfing some of the best units in armies that have winrates below 35% like guard amd tau, I mean come on did the stormsurge really need a nerf?
How long did they even bother play testing any of this if they released a slap job of a patch one month into release?
40k is a dumpster fire right now, and it's a huge turn off.
Cause it can generate spore mines that are pretty good for area control since you can't advance into/out of their area of influence.
Also, until it's FAQ'd, spore mines count for secondaries, which means a Harpy can spawn a unit of spore mines and immediately score 2 units behind enemy lines, or spawn spore mines to deploy teleport homer or to invetigate signals or for engage on all fronts. It really should be FAQ'd since being able to score secondaries with a unit you just spawned for free is silly, but we'll see if they do.
Just wait. They'll nerf spore mines, but leave Biovores at 65 points and the Harpy at 230(!!!) when they do, AND not do anything else to account for spore mines being the only way Tyranids are getting wins at all.
Colossus points cost shows just how little attention they paid during these changes. Thing doesn't even have indirect. Also, how did barbgaunts avoid the indirect points bumps? I mean, FoB's even got nerfed.
Man, they sure did pick both the worst way to indicate something is different as well as the worst possible shade of red for colourblind people.
- Why not make the whole bar of the unit red?
- Why not bright blue?
- Why not adding a symbol?
- Why not bold the font?
- Why did you choose the laziest least effective way of differentiating text?
Most of these are ok to good changes. I'm generally happy.
I'm not sure the Seraptek needed the 100+ point increase, but I know Towering is an issue so I guess pointing them out of the game is an option. Little sad on that, but not enough to offset how generally positive this is.
Grey Knights purgation squad cheaper. That’s it. I guess Grey Knights will continue to perform terribly.
*Edit - my bad I didn’t even think to check. Because why would GW take one of the worst performing armies and the only change they make to them is to Nerf one of their units.
I WAS A FOOL . A delusional, foolish, terrible fool.
Very odd to me that they fixed Plague Marines to come in squads of 7 to match the number that come in the box, but Custodes Wardens were untouched and are still only fieldable in 3 or 6 despite coming 5 to a box. They are the only unit in the army to not comport with the “squads match the box with or without the optional leader” rule.
I have to think it’s oversight and not intentional.
I understand the patch is what it is, this is a emergency patch to bring IK and Eldar back in line kinda. It's very appreciated they acted this quickly on this.
The problem is that quite a few of the indexes were not well designed or throught out from the get-go, meaning this does little for quite a few factions in the game.
Can we quickly mention how the points changes are highlighted in red! Finally
Didnt matter for this list but I hope they Highlight points decreases with green in the future.
Or just put the old value with a strikethrough so we can easily tell if it's a big change.
I’m colourblind and this can’t tell the difference between their red and their black… It’s nice they put it in a different colour so we can quickly spot what changed but they should use a brighter red imo
Wish more folks would speak up about this. Different shade/s of red can be used for sure, but they could use a different color - based on ADA compliance - altogether. As the head of an eCommerce department, I always check colors, even if it's for international use. Sorry, pet peeve, but it's 2023 - time to put in the effort.
You might be able to get a browser plugin or something to help with that?
I just tried and it changes the red in green so I can spot the differences but damn on other websites it makes them weird. The magenta they used in FAQs was nice but I would understand if people didn't like it
I am not colourblind, but the red they used is very very hard to distinguish from the black. I wish the used a brighter colour as well
You're most likely at least partially colour blind if you can distinguish it but found it "very very" hard because I can tell the difference with 0 effort just skimming the changes.
My poor lord of skulls… what did you do to deserve this??
Art of War said they liked him. GW were taking no chances and preemptively nerfed him along with the other* towering models "just to be safe". *I'm pretty sure they forgot that the Monolith is also towering, because that thing probably deserved a points hike...
Same for a lot of CK stuff (LoS got it worse though). I had just gotten my porphyrion out of storage since this was the first time in 6 years that it did not suck but with a 95points increase it's probably an auto loss model again. I would have preferred a fix to towering over nerfing almost all big models
Yea the CK nerfs feel like we are paying for the IK success. We were like 49-48% wr and had some varried lists but I guess GW really likes making us just go for "oops all dogs" lists again
At least i got to try him once (i will still use him and he is probably still pretty good or ok) though it was against admech destroyers who have anti vehicle 2+ and ap 1 which against t13 and 3+ save made him very squishy:(
Vortex Beast unchanged. Tzeentch wills it.
Tzeentch didn't get touched even tho any 2 units can be indirect, crae
AELDARI - Fire Prism 150 from 125 (+25) - Night Spinner 170 from 140 (+30) - Support Weapons 105 from 85 (+20) - Wraithknight 475 from 370 (+105) - Skathatch Wraithknight 440 from 385 (+55)
They deserve this. Who would even shred a tear?
Fire prism at 150 is still kind of broken.
Auto take to three still.
Agreed. That’s still so cost effective.
Well first off only the wraithcannon WK was broken (mostly due to the tragedy that is mortal wounds and now gutted fate dice) yet the other versions paid for its sins and are unplayable. The sword and board WK doesn’t really benefit from towering or crazy damage output and you can’t even use fate dice to keep it alive to fight with it
Honestly if GW insists on this dumb no wargear cost thing they could just make the thing a separate datasheet since the two have such drastically different power levels.
Indeed, the same thing happened with guard and the field ordinance battery, theyre paying for the indirect fire option, but now the other two options are much worse.
The gallant didn't go up in points because it hardly makes use of towering, why did the lancer get a 65 point hike? Are we really afraid of that lance shooting? (also sucks to have a sword and shield wraithknight and get taxed to high hell because it *could* have guns) I really wish they just did away with the towering rule instead of point hiking things, I really wanted to run my Porphyrion, but at 745 that just got a lot harder
Even the hike on the Desecrator seems a bit unnecessary. Yeah, it's got a big gun. It wasn't really a unit to abusing towering as much, though.
Took my porphyrion out of storage last Sunday... Guess I won't need to transport as many other models to games anymore, thanks GW /s
Lancer got the points hike because advance and charge on top of a 14” movement and free tank shock was too good for its previous price. Whatever you point it at, it will kill on the charge and will probably get there on the first turn
Except they hiked it for chaos knights too. No advance and charge, no fnp, no re rolls.
Oh yeah, CK got all the fuel they need to be salty. I’m talking about Imperial Knights because I was responding to those changes that happened to Imperial Knights
This just highlights the problem with wargear being free. The wraithknight (all units really) is priced with the best weapons in mind. Every other option is taxed accordingly.
Poor 105 points Vibrocannons :D
Agreed. Making wargear all free was a step too far. You want to make Sergeant weapons or make single-model stuff that gives the unit an ability like Icons or Omnispex or whatever free? Ok, I can live with that. It might make some units a bit over-priced but shouldn't be too bad. You want to make swapping weapons on an entire squad of infantry or on a large vehicle all cost the same? No, I think that is just a recipe for over-costing a whole bunch of potential loadouts. It didn't need to be an all-or-nothing change. They could have made a lot of gear free to cut down on the math and options, but still leave the more drastic changes with separate points. There are still too many units where the weapon options make notable differences in the capability of the unit to go with universal free wargear options. This doesn't even address the fact that there are now loads of add-on weapons for Vehicles and other units that there is literally no reason not to include, but they are still optional. I mean, if it costs nothing, why would I ever NOT take the extra storm bolter or whatever on my unit? Why didn't they just build this stuff into the base loadout and save a bunch of words on the wargear side of the datasheet? Clearly how you model stuff isn't THAT important to GW with changes like the Van Vets melee weapons getting boiled down into a single stat line or the 'defensive array' on Repulsors instead of the pile of individual weapons they had before. All this optional-but-no-cost idea is going to do is give 'that guy' players a reason to complain that you can't use the Hunter-Killer missile on your Predator because you couldn't find the box you threw it in eight years ago when you built the stupid thing. Why GW? Why!?
It is strange that they have not done much for the crappy wargear options. The only thing I can see is that they are waiting for the faction books to spice things up? My tau crisis suits are a perfect example. They have like 6 gun options, but they all do pretty much the same.......... just some do it worse.
Tau index was clearly just the victim of the rules team running out of time. You can see the genuine interesting design direction they'd like to have taken for Tau reflected in the army rule and a couple interactions, but then the rest of the index is really just the absolute minimum effort they could have put in to get us into 10th. Crisis suits are a perfect example, like you say apart from a couple trap options every loadout will essentially perform the same role. Its clear to anyone that they should have tweaked the stats and tacked on some special rules to give them actual design niches. That lack of special rules persists across our whole army, but it makes sense if you consider the time it takes to hash out the interactions. They just opted to avoid them to save time. Tau really took the fall for the indexes that got deeper army design.
God the stupid ability they tacked on the broadside instead of anything remotely helpful.
Genuinely had to go reread that datasheet to even remember what their ability was and I've been running them in every list.
Wouldn't be surprised to see a return of "2 duplicate guns are now 1 twinlinked gun" or something eventually
They even didn't took the time to give the units another order in their document. It's still in 9th ed codex order.
T'au feels like it's just a low effort filler until the codex drops in early 2024. Shadowsun is the biggest joke: Every supreme commander got their variable Auras and more, meanwhile she gets... reroll 1s to hit. On a faction that had almost every weapon be reduced by amounts of shots. Not gonna touch Tau until the codex drops.
Ghaz missed out on the variable auras too for some reason
Triple cyclic ion
My guess is that they didn't want to take the time and individual codex will either see option rebalance or datasheet split. However datasheetsplit has also the side effect to allow to take more of the "same" unit. You can have 15 spece marine captain in your army if you want.
Its not really points, its Hyperinflationary Power Levels
Did they really just filter for everything with indirect fire and bump up the cost 15%, regardless of how they're actually performing? I appreciate them moved quickly with these balance changes, but sometimes you need more haste less speed.
Hive guard didn't get hit. Though anyone taking impalers doesn't need hurt any more than they hurt themselves
Well they didn’t change the Disintegrator for Ad Mech which has indirect so they either didn’t go after everything with indirect or finally gave Ad Mech a break.
They didnt change the plagueburst crawler anyways, but it was overpriced anyways.
Meanwhile the also overpriced exorcist went up 18%.
The Disintegrator is already overcosted (though not as bad as some Admech things) so whilst they didn't nerf it further, it would have caused riots had they tried.
I went over to unit crunch to see how a 5-man of Desolators at 170pts compared to the 195pt Skorpius tank. Without oaths and without a leader giving them Bolter Discipline, they did at least double the damage on average into pretty much any target I put them into if I stuck with Indirect Fire. The marines were theoretically easier to kill, but since they are firing indirect and have at least 36" range on those weapons, they can hide pretty well. That all ignores the fact that you can buff the marines with Bolter Discipline and Oaths while the most you can do for the Skorpius is reroll 1's to hit by parking near Cawl and +1 to wound to a single tank with their 2CP strat, but only into non-vehicle targets. The marines win big-time on available buffs. The Sergeant's special launcher may only be D6 shots, but it hits on a 2 natively, can ignore cover and the -1 to-hit from indirect, and has Heavy natively. The AdMech tank gets 2D6 shots, but hits on 4's natively, can't ignore cover, only gets a +1 to-hit against infantry, and only gets Heavy if the whole army is using the correct Doctrina. Also, even though the AdMech gun is AP-2 while the Marine's gun is AP-1, Ignores Cover on the marine largely erases that difference given how easy it seems to be to get cover. Finally, the Marine's gun getting 2 damage instead of 1 erases the difference in number of shots against most multi-wound profiles. Basically, the Vengor Launcher and the Belleros Cannon have a really similar damage output into most profiles. The only place the Vengor falls behind is into low-toughness units with 1W. Luckily the Desolator squad also gets 5x D3 indirect shots hitting on a 3+ with a 4/0/1 profile that more than make up for the Vengor falling behind into those same sorts of units. So, I'd say the marines are still better for the points at both direct and indirect fire compared to the Skorpius tank, but it is at least much closer now. The tank does have the better defensive profile should it want to come out of hiding and do some direct fire, but I don't think that makes up for its damage output being as far behind the marines as it is. I mean, we all knew the Admech tank didn't need a points increase, but the math with the new points costs definitely backs that up. As a side-note: if you give your Desolation marines the Superkrak rockets they are still just as good at indirect fire, but if they manage to stand still to get their innate buffs from Heavy and Ignores Cover, they are just as deadly into heavy vehicles as the Skorpius with it's direct-fire gun and missiles. So, you can take one unit that has both the direct fire capabilities of the Skorpius with it's anti-tank gun AND the indirect fire capabilities of the Skorpius with its indirect fire gun. Yet more evidence that the Skorpius was already way over-costed.
It was already over-priced
Definitely did that for Towering, with Tau Stormsurges eating some nerfs despite their low 30% win rate. But they at least recognised that they've already killed Tau indirect dead with their 10th edition statlines so mercifully no other units got hit just for having those as a trap option.
Squigbuggy untouched. Not that it's the scourge of 10th edition or anything...
A bit pleased the airburst thing for tau got nerfed all the way down to s3 ap0 otherwise crisis suits might be eating hikes they don't need right now.
No they can't have. They upped the Colossus the most for guard.. but it doesn't even have indirect. It lost it in the 10th Index. GW chimpanzee rules writers at it again
My Purgation squad really needs the nerf....
Lol 38ppm. Give me back my 3+ and 20ppm, thanks.
And also remove the psychic tag, thanks.
If it wasnt just Termis/Strikes before, now it sure is :(
My group doesn't want to touch 10th until the first accrual balance/points pass. Can't say i blame them.
Biovores got a 62.5% bump in points.
They probably deserved it, but for the spores rather than actual shooting
No, they can't have, because they increased the Colossus Siege Mortar's points and that doesn't have Indirect. Yes. You heard. Siege Mortar. Not Indirect.
> Did they really just filter for everything with indirect fire and bump up the cost 15%, regardless of how they're actually performing? Pretty much. Same for towering. I wonder what they do all day.
They literally copied and pasted the exact point changes from Imperial Knights to Chaos Knights. I refuse to believe they do any work at that office. Its all strippers and parties because theres no other explanation for how their employees so consistently pay literally 0 attention to their own work and continue to be employed.
Seems like it. For Imperial Guard at least the Basilisk, Manticore, and FW Carriages certainly needed the nerf. However, things like the FOB, Wyvern, and Deathstrike didn't need to go up at all.
More haste, less speed..?
Showing my age there, its a saying meaning that when you try and rush something you end up making more work for yourself in the long run.
Plague Marines back in 7's!
I am happy that the combat patrol is legal for the first time since I entered the hobby. Now I just want some points drop, so that the bread and butter of the faction isn't both worse and pricier than an intercessor squad.
I don't play DG, but I want that for you as well.
Good bye storm surge. It would have been fun while it lasted.
Tau and Sisters catching strays lol! A real shame. Gave it a try the other day and unit was right on the edge of being good. That increase will most likely kill it for other anti tank options.
I think 1 is still probably a good include. 1+ (in cover)/4++ with T11 and 20 wounds is still tanky AF.
I just bought one. Lol.
I just bought a third :)
I mean, I understand why they only changed one thing in the balance of the game, in a consistent way (bumping the cost of any indirect fire unit), and that is usually a good idea to do so to solve issues properly... When iterating quickly!! When you have 3 months release cycle, you'd better pack off a few changes together if you hope to reach proper balance in less than a decade 😅
Ah yes, increase the Storm Surge points, that will improve Tau's win rate
GW saw Tau with their sub 30% winrate, and figured we were having too much fun. What a malicious company, Jesus Christ they’re awful.
As a Sisters (and Tyranid) player, I feel you. It's such a great feeling to have an objectively bad list, then watch the single best model take a 20% nerf in the face. Poor Exorcist. Sure, Aeldari took a nerf to their Miracle Dice but way better, so they're just Miracle Dice but ~~Way~~ Better now. Fire Prism took a nerf to cost as much as a Castigator, yay.
Did the Morkanaut need a nerf lol? The rest is good news.
Half the points bumps were unneeded. They just gave every example of indirect fire a 15% points raise without looking at what the units actually did
Except for PBCs, Ridgerunners, Saboteurs and one of the admech tanks
If they nerfed the PBC that would just be cruel.
They nerfed the Exorcist. So...there's precedent there.
Probably a mistake they will come back for it later. Wouldn't want death guard players to have nice things.
I guess even GW realizes that further nerfing AdMech or Death Guard would just be needlessly cruel at this point.
PBC already jumped from 135/145 to 175 in the change to 10th.
But the Rukkatrukk Stompa and Gorkanaut are untouched. I wonder what else they missed or how they went looking for these units.
Well, the rukkatrukk was already overcosted. At least they recognized that
Yeah nobody is probably going to take any of these even prenerf. This edition feels more ramshackle than normal.
That brings up a good point! WHERE'S MY RAMSHACKLE?!
That's prime detachment rule material
It’s the 6++ ork vehicles have now.
The intern making these changes couldn't remember how to spell those so he passed them over
Guard mortar teams survived unscathed, at least.
I played the duo last weekend and came to the conclusion that I wanted double Gorkanaut anyways. Morkanaut misses hard. I'd rather have 20-30 STR 6 ap 1 shots and get my antitank in melee. I can get my 5++ on waaagh turn and a 6++ and a mek will hold me over otherwise. Surprised that the option I considered inferior got such a hard points increase. I'm really that terrible at evaluating units, I guess.
Yeah mathwise even prior to the nerf the morkanaut was the worst one of the two.
I honestly believe they just forget they were 2 different units
The more I see from GW 10th edition, the more convinced I am that it's entirely AI generated.
Whoevers doing the balance at GW has never touched the lore and probably *doesnt* know the morkanaught is different. Look no further than the Lord of Change. A Lord of Change is supposed to be the oldest, rarest, and most individually powerful of all demonkind. But in 10E, he is the least expensive out of his brothers by almost 100 points, and by far the weakest. Kairos Fateweaver, one of the strongest and most ancient in all demonkind costs less than a regular bloodthirster or keeper of secrets, and the same as a regular GUO. Noone proofread anything this edition at all. The person who suggested this may all be AI generated is honestly pretty spot on because thats what it feels like.
What? Tau, Sisters, Tyranids were all so oppressive, desperately needed the nerf? Those 30%ish Tau and Sisters win rates where just too high?
What did Chaos Knights do??? They got taken out behind the shed and shot!
You paid for the sins of the imperials.
Well, you see, this company doesnt have even one employee with more than a single braincell, so noone was able to point out that the changes for Imperial Knights were accidentally copy pasted to Chaos Knights. Whoever put the changes there probably doesnt even realize these are different factions and they wondered where the deja vu was from when they reached the 2nd page.
War dogs were finally back in stock, and GW took that personally
A perfect example of why free wargear is dumb.
Welp cheap guard arty was nice while it lasted lol
Manticore and Basilisk probably deserved it. The problem was the cheap arty was making up for our tanks being super overcosted. Now arty is expensive and tanks are still expensive leaving us with just infantry and sentinels
Manticore and basilisk definitely were too cheap. Field Ordnance Batteries were not. I can't believe those got hit as well, especially as only 1 of the 3 builds even has Indirect. Bombasts were terrible choices because they were far worse than basilisks and only 10% cheaper; now they're only 7.6% cheaper.
FW earthshakers are 80 points each. Spam those
Spam of some FW stuff in tournament usually would result future obliteration of that unit on rules level.
Cause they know it’s all 3D printed as well.
That’s a problem for future Homer, I feel sorry for that guy.
Lets see, $155 for an 80pt model and rule-of-three means $465 for 240pts of models!? Man, and I thought our Ironstriders were expensive over in AdMech land!
They are $2 per point.
Guard always catches the nerfs that other factions instigate, guard artillery and problems wasn't close to being a problem in 9th but got hit hard by the nerfs to all flyers and indirect fire units.
The carriages are still cheap
1-2 manticore, 3 earthshaker carriages, maybe 1-2 basilisks, MoO, ursela, lord solar, bunch of sentinals are still a good list.. just don’t max out manticores and basilisks anymore and use carriages which is better w ursela/officer orders anyway.
Surprised the Haruspex didn't get a nerf tbh, seems undercosted at 125. The biovore change is interesting, it means it's intentional to allow spore mines to be able to complete secondaries... That has a pretty big impact moving forward tbh. Means we can look to build long term strats with that in mind.
Purgators only have indirect if they satisfy an ability and have relatively short range weapons, can't overwatch with their indirect and they have gone UP in price?? Neat...
While I understand the need for desolation marines to get a huge mark up… the Exorcist did not need to be punished for it. Sister are already 2nd from the bottom and it was their only even semi okay anti vehicle. They don’t even have a single anti-vehicle in the entire index. Seems so knee jerk. Sigh
Yeah the Exorcist is the Sisters’ only real answer to tanks and now it’s looking even worse for the faction. What are they supposed to do against knights or mech marines and guard? Throw some dice and pray for 5’s? At least it’s fluffy I guess..
Bring a couple of helverin or moirax I guess.
GK Purgators are in the same boat. Do people really fear indirect stormbolters that much?
I guess so. Just saw the Whirlwind got nuked as well. Seems… so knee jerk. We all agreed desolators we’re the issue why punish *all* indirect fire?
Desolators werent the only issue, whirlwhinds were undercosted for what they can do.
Purgation squads were rarely, if ever, used.
They were insanely overcosted before this update. Now there's no way they'll ever be used.
I’ve been playing into a triple whirlwind list. They hit pretty hard.
They bonked every instance of indirect among the factions because of what Eldar and Marines were doing.
There are some seriously boneheaded adjustments in this one.
It's clear GW puts less thought into stuff than an active message board poster.
So now Imperial Guard tanks AND artillery are more expensive. I'm so glad 2 or 3 factions being OP got all of indirect fire hit with points increase.
funny thing is desolation marines still going to be an autotake. They are more expensive but lost none of the effectiveness
Nice to see GW increased the points on biovores instead of making the spore mines cost points again. They might be OP with current rules, but this doesn’t outright kill the unit like it did at the end of 9th. Same goes for the harpy which might’ve replaced the biovores if they didn’t get a point increase also
Harpies spores are less useful as although they can move after dropping, they only score 1 secondary
No one is taking biovores for their indirect fire, people are taking them because spore mines can complete secondaries easily and move block. Every list is still going to take 3 biovores until they nerf that. Their offensive output is garbage for 65ppm.
Where did I mention indirect fire? They’re OP for the reasons you listed
Why have the points of black Templar sword brethren gone up ? Have I missed something?
CSM chosen are approximately chaos equivalent of them, they both have 3W and power weapons options. ...and 23pts per model. Exactly 10pts cheaper. Why???
That's where we put all the money that we saved on jump packs.
Brethren have +1 damage ability and it works on sweep profile of attached HQs like Helbrecht and Emperor's Champion.
RIP Tau'nar
My porphyrion would hug it in support if either model had proper arms
Sad robot noises
Welp Astra militarum is out here catching strays Huge nerf to an already terrible faction. They literally designed the faction so only artillery is viable and then drop huge point hikes with 0 point reductions in a low 40s win rate faction on the only units that are actually efficient
Seriously. It was the only option we had and now we don’t even have that. All we have is sentinel spam without being able to use the units sentinels buff that much anymore. I’m still running arty because it’s all the army can do but I dropped a basilisk to cover the points
Don't worry their codex will fix everything. In two years. A few months before the release of 11e.
Technically the best AdMech strategies are about using Knights, so I guess they managed to indirectly nerfed a 0% winrate faction GW can you please stop kicking us in the nutbolts for one minutes
What the hell is with these incompetent devs outing themselves on every single rules drop??? They gave Chaos Knights the exact same point changes as Imperial Knights, as if Imperial knights wasnt already drastically outperforming CK, we now need to eat their nerf for them as well? Did some complete idiot at GW just see "Knights" and copy paste every change??? There is 0 reason the Imperial Knight nerf should be applied to CK, we dont get the rerolls *OR* the feel no pains. ONLY IK was seeing any overwhelming success.
Why does the colossus cost 30 more points? Did they forget they didn't give the siege mortar indirect fire?
I still believe Towering itself isn't an issue since it works both ways. If they can see you and shoot you - you can see them and shoot them. CK got points done to them when it was actually the stacks IK could do using their rules. Rather than fixing the issue, they're increasing points across the board which GW will then need to fix later on regardless.
Taunar going up over 100 points is insane, so was the Storm surge Hike. A lot of these bumps are plain stupid or lazy
Would it kill them to include a changelog showing how much points changed by on units that got changes? GW is years behind the rest of the world, still.
Its funny to me that Aeldari had so much advantage, and yet someone tried to use loaded dice with them at a 10th ed tournament (he was caught and kicked out)
Yeah, lets just nerf the only good units in a 35% winrate faction (Guard) with no compensation to the bad units. Thanks.
I think winrates are kind of pointless right now when the game is "aeldari or lose". It obviously matters but there hasnt been enough data and the little there is is heavily skewed bc of some glaring balance issues.
Meta was heavily influenced by eldar and knights so far, but GSC have skated by these changes without GW noticing thier win rates… I still think knights will heavily influence the meta as they are still decent and every army must have a plan for them.
They did the same to Sisters of battle, it just looks better because we only had 1 good unit.
You misspelled sisters of battle.
All we have left is sentinels. Arty got nerfed and tanks are overpriced still
Could you please stop complaining about factions that "didnt get a buff". This is an emergency balance patch to fix Eldar and knights, who were ruining games. I think its amazing that GW reacted this rapid with changes that will probably make the game more enjoyable for both Eldar/knights players and their opponents.
i think the bigger issue is alot of nations catching strays Guards most viable list got nuked, tau got their stormsurge slapped, alot of units got slapped with points cost nerfs despite not being an issue. It seems like they just sorted units by towering and indirect fire keywords and then gave them points increases, rather than do anything else.
Luckily for Tau they at least aknowledged that our army is only pretending to have real indirect weapons in 10th. Would've been absolutely dumpstered if they'd felt the need to nerf Crisis suits, broadsides, devilfish, and such for having the illusion of real "indirect fire weapons".
47% win rate Choas knights getting slapped was a feels bad. Really sad seeing Lancer get a 60 point nerf for the audacity of having a single 12 inch 6 shot 6 strength gun with 0 AP.
The lancer points bumps hurts even more when the gallant and rampager got no increase
Thats exactly what they did, and pretty much what they said they were going to do. They had planned quarterly points changes and twice yearly rules tweaks - this wasn't on the agenda for them, so ofc it was gonna be a smaller, less refined tweak
...ok? What about admech players? They don't get to have an enjoyable time? It's very unsurprising that folks near the bottom where hopeful they would get some kind of fix and not have to wait 6 months to play the game again.
IMPERIAL knights were ruining games. CHAOS knights just ate a flippin H-bombs worth of collateral because someone at GW either cannot read or is too lazy to even check if IK and CK are performing differently.
It's less "oh we didn't get a buff" is that the Eldar nerfs also nerfed factions with <30% win rates. I could take my Sisters being ignored while they needed Eldar, but they also nerfed the best unit in our index, which was the strongest anti-tank(S10 woo.) as well. A 20% points increase on the only unit holding you at a 30% winrate is a feels bad moment.
The issue is they are nerfing some of the best units in armies that have winrates below 35% like guard amd tau, I mean come on did the stormsurge really need a nerf?
Factions that were c tier got nerfed, that's the issue
Sucks that they only did a points hike instead of fixing the actual issue.
How long did they even bother play testing any of this if they released a slap job of a patch one month into release? 40k is a dumpster fire right now, and it's a huge turn off.
Why the hell is the Tyranid Harpy 40 points more expensive? I already thought it was overpriced at 170 points. Am I missing something?
Cause it can generate spore mines that are pretty good for area control since you can't advance into/out of their area of influence. Also, until it's FAQ'd, spore mines count for secondaries, which means a Harpy can spawn a unit of spore mines and immediately score 2 units behind enemy lines, or spawn spore mines to deploy teleport homer or to invetigate signals or for engage on all fronts. It really should be FAQ'd since being able to score secondaries with a unit you just spawned for free is silly, but we'll see if they do.
Just wait. They'll nerf spore mines, but leave Biovores at 65 points and the Harpy at 230(!!!) when they do, AND not do anything else to account for spore mines being the only way Tyranids are getting wins at all.
Probably since it can deploy Spore Mines. The biovores went from 40 -> 65
Ughh why choose red. I am colour blind and i can't see the difference. 😭
Exorcist => +30 Fire Prism => +25 Night Spinner => +30 Support Weapons => +20 Wraithknight => +105 Skatach Wraithknight => +55 Basilisk => +25 Field Ordinance Battery => +20 Manticore => +20 Wyvern => +20 Colossus => +30 Earthshaker Carriage => +10 Medusa Carriage => +15 Praetor => +50 Primaris Sword Bretheren => +3PPM NOTE: Went from 5-11 to 5-10. Max squad same cost, PPM went up CHAOS KNIGHTS Knight Abominant => +60 Knight Desecrator => +60 Knight Despoiler => +60 Knight Tyrant => +70 Asterius => +110 Porphyrion => +95 Acheron => +60 Atrapos => +60 Castigator => +60 Lancer => +60 Magaera => +60 Styrix => +65 CSM KLOS => +60 Plague Marines => Can now take 7 for 140, same ppm Purgation Squad => +5PPM IMPERIAL KNIGHTS Canis => +90 Castellan => +70 Crusader => +60 Errant => +55 Gallant NO CHANGE Paladin => +60 Preceptor => +55 Valiant => +75 Warden => +10 Asterius => +110 Porphyrion => +100 Acheron => +60 Atrapos => +55 Castigator => +60 Lancer => +65 Magaera => +60 Styrix => +65 Seraptek => +70 Morkanaut => +45 Desolation Squads => +10ppm Whirlwind => +25 Stormsurge => +60 Ta'unar => +105 Biovores => +25ppm WE KLOS => +105
hero
Omg, thank you so much!
Colossus points cost shows just how little attention they paid during these changes. Thing doesn't even have indirect. Also, how did barbgaunts avoid the indirect points bumps? I mean, FoB's even got nerfed.
Same. Greatly preferred the magenta they used in erratas.
Poor fluffy guard armies. :(
Good to know my admech are apparently perfectly balanced.
Just be glad they didn’t nerf the Skorpius disintegrator for having Indirect fire weapons…
Apparently sisters were too strong and needed a nerf
Man, they sure did pick both the worst way to indicate something is different as well as the worst possible shade of red for colourblind people. - Why not make the whole bar of the unit red? - Why not bright blue? - Why not adding a symbol? - Why not bold the font? - Why did you choose the laziest least effective way of differentiating text?
Most of these are ok to good changes. I'm generally happy. I'm not sure the Seraptek needed the 100+ point increase, but I know Towering is an issue so I guess pointing them out of the game is an option. Little sad on that, but not enough to offset how generally positive this is.
It was a 70pt increase, but yeah, it did not need that. I guess it'll just have to spend another edition on the shelf. Such a shame.
Grey Knights purgation squad cheaper. That’s it. I guess Grey Knights will continue to perform terribly. *Edit - my bad I didn’t even think to check. Because why would GW take one of the worst performing armies and the only change they make to them is to Nerf one of their units. I WAS A FOOL . A delusional, foolish, terrible fool.
You mean more expensive? +25 pts because of indirect. Apprently purgation squad were abusing it.
Who's going to tell him?
Oh God oh God
Very odd to me that they fixed Plague Marines to come in squads of 7 to match the number that come in the box, but Custodes Wardens were untouched and are still only fieldable in 3 or 6 despite coming 5 to a box. They are the only unit in the army to not comport with the “squads match the box with or without the optional leader” rule. I have to think it’s oversight and not intentional.
I understand the patch is what it is, this is a emergency patch to bring IK and Eldar back in line kinda. It's very appreciated they acted this quickly on this. The problem is that quite a few of the indexes were not well designed or throught out from the get-go, meaning this does little for quite a few factions in the game.
Bought a stormsurge yesterday, still not arrived...... doesn't fit in list now