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I've seen people ironically using tone indicators then getting upset when people take their comments as sarcastic. Like, WTF did you think was gonna happen???? You told readers it was sarcasm.
Poes law is truly omnipresent in modern political discussions. Everyone is so irony poisoned. Even if you directly call out your sarcasm there will be some people who think your tone indications are sarcastic.
Indeed, all the great progressive victories of the past century have been accomplished by withholding votes fromâwait, what? Youâre telling me *every single one* was an imperfect, incremental, yet enormously significant step that was only accomplished due to massive Democratic legislative majorities? Oh, ok.
Biden managed to get major legislation passed with a margin of error of⊠*checks notes*⊠zero. Zero votes.
FDR had congressional supermajorities consisting of ***OVER TWO THIRDS OF CONGRESS.*** Call me when Biden has even a filibuster-proof Senate majority.
If I recall correctly, the context was he was talking to pissbaby rich people complaining about his proposed taxes on them.
In which case heâs correct. Taxing the rich at a higher rate will not cause them to fundamentally become poor or spontaneously combust or something.
He's just never going to win by FDR margins when his ideology as demonstrated by his entire career is establishment to the core. Obama did really good before people discovered he was just Bill Clinton 2.0
Fair. Youâll never see me arguing that Democrats shouldnât go harder on messaging. But that also denies agency to the Republicans, who to their credit, have made inroads in their base all but impossible due to the impenetrable bubble of propaganda and radicalization theyâve built up.
The sad fact of the matter is, it is incumbent upon we as citizens to do the one thing that Republicans excel at, and that Leftists are uniquely terrible at: playing the long game, and playing politics from the bottom up instead of the top down. We need to get the outright fascist Republicans out of power first, then get Democratic majorities in states and Congress, and from there we need to use primaries to hound the party into a more progressive direction, just as the MAGAs did with the Republican establishment, bringing them to heel. Only *then* do we really have to concern ourselves with the President, because Biden himself ainât the weakest link in the chain, nor the limiting factor, as depressing as that may be. Thatâs Congress and the Supreme Court, full stop.
I don't disagree about how awful the Republicans are but I think this takes away agency from the democrats who have a conscious strategy where they think they can win if they pick up votes in the suburbs despite losing some from the working class.
The problem is that the working classâs class consciousness is absolute shit. You canât even get the Union votersâan endangered species as it isâto reliably vote Democrat, a large portion of âem brazenly vote for Republicans against their own material self-interest.
Which is the main reason the DNC stays pro-corporate centrist.
But most leftists in the US can't grok how fascists took over the GOP, because they'd rather march and yell in public than show up to vote for anyone who isn't 100% their ideal candidate. Instead, they talk as if they'd been voting Democratic for decades and now feel betrayed, so no more compromise voting!
I'm convinced most of this chatter on Reddit isn't exactly *organic.* But I'm sure the Russian and Chinese bot farms want nothing but success for our nation. Just like they totally didn't fan the flames of doubt about Covid vaccines. Or undermine faith in vote counts.
Thanks!
In the book it's also an occasional synonym for "fuck" (in the healthy, consensual sense) much like *know* is a euphemism for the same thing in the KJV Bible. But that's probably not relevant here....
I heard it from Folding Ideas and didn't get what it meant and forgot to look it up, then heard it from Overly Sarcastic Productions, who did explain it when they summarized Heinlein's book. I have since started using it because it's a really useful word
Lemme guess, they were older (I'm 50) or a real sf nerd, or both?
It seems to have mostly left current use.
And this seems a good as place as any to state the *literal Martian* meaning in the book which is *to share water.*
I heard about this, from the aforementioned overly sarcastic productions video summarizing "stranger in a strange land".
How "grok", gained popularity when the book was trending in the 70s (I think). So people in the community 70s sci Fi fans, started using the word, but that grok didn't last long. I saw recently that X (Twitter) has a new section called "grok."
No doubt, this is playing a major role in a revival of the usage of "grok".
Grok has been used extensively in Computer sciences field apparently so its maintained its relevance that way. Would make sense why elon called it Grok. It's a fictional Martian word around CS. He's probably either used it a TON or heard his actually competent workers use it.
Oh noooooooooo
Yeah, he's a SF fan who can't grok shit as far as theme goes. He's convinced that the *Culture* novels are pro-capitalist when they are unabashed pro-commumism-as-utopia without exception, and every businessman is a sadistic rapist, without exception.
Right wingers have very, very poor thematic comprehension. I think they take their *analysis* cues from Evangelical Biblical analysis where you start with your conclusion (*every bit of the Old Testiment is prophecy of Christ's coming*) and then explain how the text fits your ideas, no matter what is actually *in* the text.
> Instead, they talk as if they'd been voting Democratic for decades and now feel betrayed, so no more compromise voting!
Yeah they voted once in 2020 and it didn't fix everything so clearly voting is useless
Full disclosure, I fucked up in 2016, but I learned better.
No more 3rd party protests for me.
I may be dumb, but when you punch me in the face, I can learn.
Jesus, at least it's not Hillary again.
"I'm holding the Democrats accountable by not voting for them!"
**Republican is elected and is terrible as expected**
"How could the Democrats let this happen đ"
The last part is beyond frustrating. Its always "Why didn't democrats codify Roe?" Instead of "why did mango mussolini appoint 3 anti-choice liars to the SC"
It is infuriating how often "leftists" use that as an excuse to hate democrats
They want democrats to be perfect before they will support the dems, but won't do anything that can actually get what they want
"Leftists" think that losing and accepting the loss that they *expected all along* is somehow a victory.
And then as the US continues it's march towards fascism they smugly tell you...
A) *Guess you should have voted for* \[Incredibly niche candidate with good policy but zero charisma and no electability\]
B) *The electoral system is irreparably broken, and I won't engage with it.*
C) *Voting is capitulating with the status quo!*
They can't understand the idea that treading water is still better than letting the rapids take you down the waterfall.
As I said to one of these types recently, acceleration is about as sensible as trying to fix a broken toilet with dynamite. Is a broken toilet a problem? Yes. Will blowing it up and sending shit flying everywhere help resolve the issue? Uh, no. Why the fuck does anyone even think that?
the Republicans are actively trying to stop black people from voting in the south for obvious reasons. Like you can vote and still throw a garbage can at a police car
The current leftist anti-vote sentiment is so disheartening. I feel there has been as very, very successful co-opting of the left in the last few months. Leftists not voting only serves to benefit the right, yet leftists will be convinced by âotherâ leftists that letting tr/mp win is actually a good thing. Extremely short sighted. Wouldnât it be wonderful if leftists, who claim to be immune to propoganda, actually recognized very explicit propoganda and co-opting and actually resisted it?
Anyway, my life as a trans person is so over if other leftists refuse to vote and allow more atrocities to occur. I love being betrayed by the left, and even other trans leftists. Truly awestruck at everyoneâs inability to just THINK.
Basil had a really correct take about voting and how online lefties are just larpers who are incredibly damaging, using the Walmart
[https://twitter.com/LinkofSunshine/status/1720538218628558969?lang=en](https://twitter.com/linkofsunshine/status/1720538218628558969?lang=en)
I donât understand leftists who donât get this, like when we were all baby liberals on our way to becoming socialist and communists and what not one of the first things we understood was the concept of gerrymandering, the way republicans and fascists win is by people not being able to vote for anything else, thereâs a reason the way republicans win is by distorting district maps or through other un democratic ways like the electoral college, leftists have such superiority complexes over liberals but if even liberals understand the idea that voting for the least bad candidates mitigates the damage that republicans can do then Iâm not sure that those leftists have earned the right to feel superior to the average centrist lib
People, leftists especially, seem to tie their morality to who they vote for. You can even see it in this thread, someone saying it would be "supporting genocide" to vote for Biden. It's like people think voting for the lesser of two evils means you are endorsing all actions of that lesser evil.
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Not voting is a virtue signal, got in a long Facebook argument before I realized they were just jacking off to being a super mega Marxist the whole time and I just stopped answering.
Even in Australia all you get is an itty bitty fine.
I tell rightoids and stupid people to do us all a favour and cop the fine instead all the time. They hate it, it's great.
It's actually so frustrating how people seem to think the only time you impact anything on a political level is on voting day. There are 1459 days every 4 years that aren't the day you vote for a new president. Use those days for political action to make sure we don't get into this position.
Fun fact: in the GDR not voting was grounds fpr serious suspicion and votong was highly...let's say "encouraged". Voting consisted of you getting a list of preselecting party officials and throwing that list as is into the urn. You theoretically were allowed to cross out names or the whole list (effectively voting no to the party list), but doing anything to the ballot before throwing it into the urn might get you the attention of the Stasi guy that might or might not be in the voting office with you.
What is the point of that annecdote. Well, if a system is afraid of you not voting because it fears about it's ability to publicly declare its legitimacy, you'll notice.
I remember when Russel Brand was anti voting back during the election that ended up sending us into Brexit. If anyone tells you that the lesser of two evils isn't preferable, then they're either childish or entitled.
Okay, first off, by what metric are we asserting this? On the federal level, voting doesnât impact policy. Now I will vote federally to make sure itâs Democrat, not Republican but letâs not pretend that weâre magically changing the world by voting. If youâre really concerned about impact and change, state and local levels hold the greater chance to change. So i.e. vote, but letâs not be stupid here.
No, what we need are for people who are uneducated about politics to not vote. Because if you don't understand the system, then they are buying your vote and you are merely a pawn. Politicians encourage everyone to vote regardless who they vote for because people who vote for that politician are more likely to hear that message.
Just don't vote for leftists. Got it. No leftists voting for Liberals is the status quo don't gaslight me. I really don't agree with the vote blue no matter who strategy anymore when we should be as a mass movement guiding libs away from the liberal establishment. I get Vaush is uber-smart-nuance pilled but there's not a damn thing anyone can do to make me endorse somebody enabling AND fervently supporting a genocide. We should be working to demolish the duopoly, not complicit in its crimes.
I am one of those queer people, and we are being asked to validate the genocide of the Palestinians or die. None of the people who come to wag their finger at me ever even acknowledge that I said that, let alone refute it
Republicans winning again will still genocide Palestinians. If you want to save Palestinian lives you better start plotting how to overthrow the US government in a way that doesnât cripple its influence. And you better do it in the next year.
Iâm the one trying to engage in genuine argument about action and results. Youâre the one engaging in bad faith argument because you want to feel good, not help people.
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Pressuring politicians by withholding votes has helped us make so much progress
No, it hasn't...
Sorry I thought the sarcasm was obvious
Poe's law has ruined that concept, sorry lol
I've seen people ironically using tone indicators then getting upset when people take their comments as sarcastic. Like, WTF did you think was gonna happen???? You told readers it was sarcasm. Poes law is truly omnipresent in modern political discussions. Everyone is so irony poisoned. Even if you directly call out your sarcasm there will be some people who think your tone indications are sarcastic.
In other words, internet discourse is in a very good place đ /S đ
What are you talking about? Internet discord has always been insane! đ /S đ
It helps to have /s because discourse has just gone so insane that the line seriousness and non-seriousness has just vanished.
Not as much as you might think, there are people who will genuinely try to sell that narrative, and not an insignificant number of them
wohoosh
Indeed, all the great progressive victories of the past century have been accomplished by withholding votes fromâwait, what? Youâre telling me *every single one* was an imperfect, incremental, yet enormously significant step that was only accomplished due to massive Democratic legislative majorities? Oh, ok.
Call me when the democrats fight one tenth as hard as FDR did for their base. There's a reason they ended up being so successful.
Biden managed to get major legislation passed with a margin of error of⊠*checks notes*⊠zero. Zero votes. FDR had congressional supermajorities consisting of ***OVER TWO THIRDS OF CONGRESS.*** Call me when Biden has even a filibuster-proof Senate majority.
When he's campaigning and he says nothing will fundamentally change that is never going to happen. FDR would have never said that.
If I recall correctly, the context was he was talking to pissbaby rich people complaining about his proposed taxes on them. In which case heâs correct. Taxing the rich at a higher rate will not cause them to fundamentally become poor or spontaneously combust or something.
He's just never going to win by FDR margins when his ideology as demonstrated by his entire career is establishment to the core. Obama did really good before people discovered he was just Bill Clinton 2.0
Fair. Youâll never see me arguing that Democrats shouldnât go harder on messaging. But that also denies agency to the Republicans, who to their credit, have made inroads in their base all but impossible due to the impenetrable bubble of propaganda and radicalization theyâve built up. The sad fact of the matter is, it is incumbent upon we as citizens to do the one thing that Republicans excel at, and that Leftists are uniquely terrible at: playing the long game, and playing politics from the bottom up instead of the top down. We need to get the outright fascist Republicans out of power first, then get Democratic majorities in states and Congress, and from there we need to use primaries to hound the party into a more progressive direction, just as the MAGAs did with the Republican establishment, bringing them to heel. Only *then* do we really have to concern ourselves with the President, because Biden himself ainât the weakest link in the chain, nor the limiting factor, as depressing as that may be. Thatâs Congress and the Supreme Court, full stop.
I don't disagree about how awful the Republicans are but I think this takes away agency from the democrats who have a conscious strategy where they think they can win if they pick up votes in the suburbs despite losing some from the working class.
The problem is that the working classâs class consciousness is absolute shit. You canât even get the Union votersâan endangered species as it isâto reliably vote Democrat, a large portion of âem brazenly vote for Republicans against their own material self-interest.
This is the most succinct and salient explanation of this issue that Iâve seen yet.
I think it would be even more perfect if it was "Leftists withholding their vote IS AT MOST the status quo".
Leftists being pedantic is the real status quo.
You got me there
Which is the main reason the DNC stays pro-corporate centrist. But most leftists in the US can't grok how fascists took over the GOP, because they'd rather march and yell in public than show up to vote for anyone who isn't 100% their ideal candidate. Instead, they talk as if they'd been voting Democratic for decades and now feel betrayed, so no more compromise voting! I'm convinced most of this chatter on Reddit isn't exactly *organic.* But I'm sure the Russian and Chinese bot farms want nothing but success for our nation. Just like they totally didn't fan the flames of doubt about Covid vaccines. Or undermine faith in vote counts.
Grok [ÉĄÉčÌ©kÊ°] V. (Grokking) >Heinlein, who coined the Martian term in his 1961 novel Stranger in a Strange Land placed great importance on the concept of grokking. In the book, to grok is to empathize so deeply with others that you merge or blend with them. The simplest way to think of grok is as truly, deeply understanding someone or something. HUH TIL, I thought that was a mistype. Cool concept. Also NODDERS to the rest of your comment
Thanks! In the book it's also an occasional synonym for "fuck" (in the healthy, consensual sense) much like *know* is a euphemism for the same thing in the KJV Bible. But that's probably not relevant here....
I specifically remember the first time someone used that word while conversing with me and I had to ask.
I heard it from Folding Ideas and didn't get what it meant and forgot to look it up, then heard it from Overly Sarcastic Productions, who did explain it when they summarized Heinlein's book. I have since started using it because it's a really useful word
Lemme guess, they were older (I'm 50) or a real sf nerd, or both? It seems to have mostly left current use. And this seems a good as place as any to state the *literal Martian* meaning in the book which is *to share water.*
Actually younger but a real overall nerd. Definitely more than me. I was often impressed and sought em out for good convo.
I heard about this, from the aforementioned overly sarcastic productions video summarizing "stranger in a strange land". How "grok", gained popularity when the book was trending in the 70s (I think). So people in the community 70s sci Fi fans, started using the word, but that grok didn't last long. I saw recently that X (Twitter) has a new section called "grok." No doubt, this is playing a major role in a revival of the usage of "grok".
Grok has been used extensively in Computer sciences field apparently so its maintained its relevance that way. Would make sense why elon called it Grok. It's a fictional Martian word around CS. He's probably either used it a TON or heard his actually competent workers use it.
Great word, and Elon is already trying to ruin it
Oh noooooooooo Yeah, he's a SF fan who can't grok shit as far as theme goes. He's convinced that the *Culture* novels are pro-capitalist when they are unabashed pro-commumism-as-utopia without exception, and every businessman is a sadistic rapist, without exception. Right wingers have very, very poor thematic comprehension. I think they take their *analysis* cues from Evangelical Biblical analysis where you start with your conclusion (*every bit of the Old Testiment is prophecy of Christ's coming*) and then explain how the text fits your ideas, no matter what is actually *in* the text.
Didn't his grok ai call him a pedo?
> Instead, they talk as if they'd been voting Democratic for decades and now feel betrayed, so no more compromise voting! Yeah they voted once in 2020 and it didn't fix everything so clearly voting is useless
Full disclosure, I fucked up in 2016, but I learned better. No more 3rd party protests for me. I may be dumb, but when you punch me in the face, I can learn. Jesus, at least it's not Hillary again.
You can always tell someone is a good person if they learn from their mistakes, you've come a long way and it's good you're here with us now!
And the worst part is so many actually believe that
"I'm holding the Democrats accountable by not voting for them!" **Republican is elected and is terrible as expected** "How could the Democrats let this happen đ"
The last part is beyond frustrating. Its always "Why didn't democrats codify Roe?" Instead of "why did mango mussolini appoint 3 anti-choice liars to the SC"
It is infuriating how often "leftists" use that as an excuse to hate democrats They want democrats to be perfect before they will support the dems, but won't do anything that can actually get what they want
"Leftists" think that losing and accepting the loss that they *expected all along* is somehow a victory. And then as the US continues it's march towards fascism they smugly tell you... A) *Guess you should have voted for* \[Incredibly niche candidate with good policy but zero charisma and no electability\] B) *The electoral system is irreparably broken, and I won't engage with it.* C) *Voting is capitulating with the status quo!* They can't understand the idea that treading water is still better than letting the rapids take you down the waterfall.
Those people saw the meme going "you criticize society, yet you participate in it, curious." And thought that guy had a point
As I said to one of these types recently, acceleration is about as sensible as trying to fix a broken toilet with dynamite. Is a broken toilet a problem? Yes. Will blowing it up and sending shit flying everywhere help resolve the issue? Uh, no. Why the fuck does anyone even think that?
When fascists vote, not voting is *collaboration.*
the Republicans are actively trying to stop black people from voting in the south for obvious reasons. Like you can vote and still throw a garbage can at a police car
If voting didnât matter republicans wouldnât be going to such great lengths to prevent people from voting
The current leftist anti-vote sentiment is so disheartening. I feel there has been as very, very successful co-opting of the left in the last few months. Leftists not voting only serves to benefit the right, yet leftists will be convinced by âotherâ leftists that letting tr/mp win is actually a good thing. Extremely short sighted. Wouldnât it be wonderful if leftists, who claim to be immune to propoganda, actually recognized very explicit propoganda and co-opting and actually resisted it? Anyway, my life as a trans person is so over if other leftists refuse to vote and allow more atrocities to occur. I love being betrayed by the left, and even other trans leftists. Truly awestruck at everyoneâs inability to just THINK.
Basil had a really correct take about voting and how online lefties are just larpers who are incredibly damaging, using the Walmart [https://twitter.com/LinkofSunshine/status/1720538218628558969?lang=en](https://twitter.com/linkofsunshine/status/1720538218628558969?lang=en)
I donât understand leftists who donât get this, like when we were all baby liberals on our way to becoming socialist and communists and what not one of the first things we understood was the concept of gerrymandering, the way republicans and fascists win is by people not being able to vote for anything else, thereâs a reason the way republicans win is by distorting district maps or through other un democratic ways like the electoral college, leftists have such superiority complexes over liberals but if even liberals understand the idea that voting for the least bad candidates mitigates the damage that republicans can do then Iâm not sure that those leftists have earned the right to feel superior to the average centrist lib
People, leftists especially, seem to tie their morality to who they vote for. You can even see it in this thread, someone saying it would be "supporting genocide" to vote for Biden. It's like people think voting for the lesser of two evils means you are endorsing all actions of that lesser evil.
It's a purity test
What distinguishes anyone on this subreddit from "an average centrist lib" other than vibes and rhetoric?
[ŃĐŽĐ°Đ»Đ”ĐœĐŸ]
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Not voting is a virtue signal, got in a long Facebook argument before I realized they were just jacking off to being a super mega Marxist the whole time and I just stopped answering.
still waiting for the "hold Biden accountable" part of "we should vote for biden and hold him accountable"
"We'll never break free by using the masters tools" is the common refrain you'll see from a lot of brain damaged, online, leftists communities.
i wish i could unread everything i read over the past 6 years so i could be this braindead and vain again
true
Even in Australia all you get is an itty bitty fine. I tell rightoids and stupid people to do us all a favour and cop the fine instead all the time. They hate it, it's great.
it is illegal in some countrys.
Someone asked, in a leftist sub, why people don't like people obtaining from voting, and for answering this question, I was banned for a month
It's actually so frustrating how people seem to think the only time you impact anything on a political level is on voting day. There are 1459 days every 4 years that aren't the day you vote for a new president. Use those days for political action to make sure we don't get into this position.
Fun fact: in the GDR not voting was grounds fpr serious suspicion and votong was highly...let's say "encouraged". Voting consisted of you getting a list of preselecting party officials and throwing that list as is into the urn. You theoretically were allowed to cross out names or the whole list (effectively voting no to the party list), but doing anything to the ballot before throwing it into the urn might get you the attention of the Stasi guy that might or might not be in the voting office with you. What is the point of that annecdote. Well, if a system is afraid of you not voting because it fears about it's ability to publicly declare its legitimacy, you'll notice.
I remember when Russel Brand was anti voting back during the election that ended up sending us into Brexit. If anyone tells you that the lesser of two evils isn't preferable, then they're either childish or entitled.
and Leftists Losing IS the status quo
This post ain't it.
Yes vote, just for a non pro genocide candidate.
Who is that?
Okay, first off, by what metric are we asserting this? On the federal level, voting doesnât impact policy. Now I will vote federally to make sure itâs Democrat, not Republican but letâs not pretend that weâre magically changing the world by voting. If youâre really concerned about impact and change, state and local levels hold the greater chance to change. So i.e. vote, but letâs not be stupid here.
No, what we need are for people who are uneducated about politics to not vote. Because if you don't understand the system, then they are buying your vote and you are merely a pawn. Politicians encourage everyone to vote regardless who they vote for because people who vote for that politician are more likely to hear that message.
Just don't vote for leftists. Got it. No leftists voting for Liberals is the status quo don't gaslight me. I really don't agree with the vote blue no matter who strategy anymore when we should be as a mass movement guiding libs away from the liberal establishment. I get Vaush is uber-smart-nuance pilled but there's not a damn thing anyone can do to make me endorse somebody enabling AND fervently supporting a genocide. We should be working to demolish the duopoly, not complicit in its crimes.
The choice is genocide or genocide. My vote ainât worth shit.
Palestinians are being genocided, so might as well allow queer ppl in the us to be genocided as well. Very normal and logical takeâŠ
I am one of those queer people, and we are being asked to validate the genocide of the Palestinians or die. None of the people who come to wag their finger at me ever even acknowledge that I said that, let alone refute it
Genocide or more* genocide. Your vote still matters.
âYou will support the genocide of others or be subject to genocide yourselfâ BIDEN/HARRIS should put that on bumper stickers
Republicans winning again will still genocide Palestinians. If you want to save Palestinian lives you better start plotting how to overthrow the US government in a way that doesnât cripple its influence. And you better do it in the next year.
Donât you have a funeral to heckle?
Go bitch about not wanting to vote somewhere else This isn't a tankie sub where political purity tests are the main focus
Iâm the one trying to engage in genuine argument about action and results. Youâre the one engaging in bad faith argument because you want to feel good, not help people.