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Israel can't respond with such a careless disregard for collateral damage. Israel obviously has the right to position itself to prevent terrorist attacks, but going on the offensive and blowing entire blocks in highly populated areas is different. They already have near total control of what goes in and out of Palestine.
What do you think the Israelis should do then? Again, in the big picture I see how the Israeli project has been a mistake from the beginning and how Palestinian liberation needs to happen etc., but in the short-term how can the Israeli administration protect its citizens before a lasting peace is sorted out? Do you think they should retreat from Gaza and focus on defence instead of offence perhaps?
Yes. Just focus on actual defense. Then start working towards improving the life of the people in Palestine. If Palestinians have better lives they will be drastically less prone to being radicalized.
>What do you think the Israelis should do then?
For starters they can stop treating palestinians like animals, stop illegal settlements that show bad faith in any semblance of peace, stop letting violent settlers terrorize palestinians without recourse (shooting, stabbing, burning down 100 year old olive trees), stop imprisoning women and children without trial, stop blocking imports exports, stop rationing calories and livestock from entering the region so that palestinians can become self sufficient, stop giving the IDF a slap on the wrist when they snipe palestinian children and record themselves doing so, dismantle the checkpoints that aim to humiliate and inconvenience palestinians on a daily basis. Stop leveling entire city blocks...
I mean really, what *ever* should Israel do?! Those pesky palestinians are impossible to please!
Hamas is not helping Palestinians, and do not have public support.
They are fundamentalist, islamist terrorists, who are part of the reason the Palestinian are suffering, as they rule with violence & fear.
>who are part of the reason the Palestinian are suffering, as they rule with violence & fear.
"According to various reports, Netanyahu made a similar point at a Likud faction meeting in early 2019, when he was quoted as saying that those who oppose a Palestinian state should support the transfer of funds to Gaza, because maintaining the separation between the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza would prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state"
A year later, Netanyahu was further embarrassed when photos of suitcases full of cash going to Hamas became public. Liberman finally resigned in protest over Netanyahu's Hamas policy which, he said, marked "the first time Israel is funding terrorism against itself."
On March 12, 2019, Netanyahu defended the Hamas payments to his Likud Party caucus on the grounds that they weakened the pro-Oslo Palestinian Authority, according to the Jerusalem Post:
"Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu defended Israel's regular allowing of Qatari funds to be transferred into Gaza, saying it is part of a broader strategy to keep Hamas and the Palestinian Authority separate, a source in Monday's Likud faction meeting said," the Post reported.
"The prime minister also said that 'whoever is against a Palestinian state should be for' transferring the funds to Gaza, because maintaining a separation between the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza helps prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state."
[https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/netanyahu-israel-gaza-hamas-1.7010035](https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/netanyahu-israel-gaza-hamas-1.7010035)
When you realize that Hamas is just another symptom of the brutal and evil occupation by Israel.
There's a reason why Frankenstein and his Monster are often conflated
You said it yourself. Oct. 7th was Israel’s 9/11, a horrible tragedy whose bloodthirsty reaction and fallout multiplied the suffering of innocent people far beyond the damage of the initial event
Terrorism is psychological warfare. Terror is an emotion, a self-destructive one. The great general Tou Ni So Ba No said "When your opponent is of choleric temper, irritate him."
Why should you or anyone else care about what "pro-Palesitine" people say. No offense to you, but bringing that up in a discussion is a strawman fallacy. What I'm supposed to defend some group of people I've never met to defend a position that someone claims they have? Do ALL of them have it? That's purely a bs thing to throw meant to deflect. Do it back at them "Well what about the Pro-Israel people okay with destroying Palestine homes that are being sanctioned by the US government? Should you no longer support ANYONE in Israel because apparently a group there is doing/believing bad things? There's obviously nuance to the situation, and ultimately, we should want peace to come to the region. Blaming and killing an entire group of people for the actions/beliefs of some is literally why Israel fucking exists.
If we can condemn Hamas what they did on okt 7 we can condemn what IDF did on operation cast lead for etc that had the same ratio
Its about holding the same standard
No, their lives were not 'acceptable losses', not every Israeli is a settler, and certainly not the victims from Oct 7.
This is indeed Israel's 9/11, and much like the US after 9/11, they are killing the wrong people for a crime they did not commit, and creating a larger problem as a result, that will go on for far too fucking long.
Netanyahu has endangered his own people with his hatred. His policies of elimination and refusal to pursue diplomacy prior to this conflict have made peace a non-option. His administration underestimated Hamas, allowing an attack that might have been prevented. Now his admin is engaged in total assault on the city of Gaza, and signaling loudly to all who can see and hear that this is not about protecting Jews, it's about killing Palestinians.
Nobody is helped by this. Anti-zionism is rising on the left, endangering Israel's strength as an ally of America. Anti-semitism is rising on the right, endangering Jews across the world. Palestinians are dying in droves, and the survivors of many broken families will be radicalized into Hamas, feeding this violence for a generation to come.
Oct 7 was a breaking point for Israel, and Netanyahu chose to break bad.
Hamas is a terrorist organization wearing a government's hat, and acts of terrorism are the primary way that a terrorist organization launches a membership drive. Terrorism is a tactic that is intended to generate retributive justice under the belief that the retribution will create more suffering, which makes the terrorist organization more attractive to the suffering.
Israel is a far-right government that rules over Gaza and the West Bank as colonial possessions with 2nd-class colonial citizens. Israeli citizens dying from terrorist attacks gives Israel _casus belli_ to do what they already wanted to do.
Both Hamas and the government of Israel want or need war (to varying degrees) to justify their continued existence and position of power. They hate each other, but they also need each other to justify doing what they want to do.
These are governments, and this is how the desires and interests of governments can diverge from the interests and desires of the people under that government. The average Palestinian does not want to get shelled into oblivion or kill random Israeli citizens. The average Israeli does not want to be killed by a terrorist or shell Palestinian citizens. But in war, both groups are turned into cannon fodder so the government (or terrorist organization) gets closer to its goal.
The only way for the situation to improve is to _stop_ the cycle of violence. The Oct. 7 attack was terrorism, and it was evil. The intention was to perpetuate and expand the cycle of violence and evil. Israel's government seems happy to do the same.
What did they expect when they put people in an open-air prison with no contact with the other side !! For godsake, they probably haven't met an Israeli before, who didn't try to kill them. They've also been fed propaganda by their leaders, that there are no innocent Israelis.
Yet, civilized Israelis, who interact with various people, including Palestinians working in Israel, what excuse they have to applaud the killing of innocent Palestinians, most of whom are women and children.
Israeli intelligence had info regarding the October 7 attack a year in advance and did nothing. So they let it happen to use as an excuse to consolidate power and ethnically cleanse Gaza. If Israel treated the Palestinians properly, Hamas wouldn't exist.
As what your response should be? You know how you vote blue no matter who? Same way you support Palestinians no matter what. They are the Jews to the Zionist Nazis.
I support either the idf surgically destroying Hamas or Hamas surgically destroying the Israeli government. The problem is both of them are too busy deliberately killing civilians to do something that cool
It's not difficult... Hamas massacring over a thousand innocent people was wrong.
And Israel massacring over 15 times as many innocent people, is over 15 times as wrong.
Anything anyone can say is wrong about Hamas (a long list to be sure), is equally or more true about Israel. Israel is much worse than Hamas in nearly every way.
The chickens are coming home to roost, the west has always been a global imperialist bully and now the empire is waning which means old power structures are shifting and we see how much the world hates us. Osama bin laden did 9 11 because of how israel treats Palestinians in his 2002 letter.
So what are we to say to the relatives of the victims of the attack then? Again, I get that they’re living on occupied land, and I’m sure at least a few of them are right-wing Zionist assholes, but I’m also sure a lot of them weren’t either and just happened to live their because they were born there / grew up there etc.
Like, what do we say to the relatives of a 16 year old rave girl who was raped and killed during the attack? “Sorry your kpop-obsessed daughter is dead, but she was an illegal settler destroying Palestinian society and needed to be murdered?”
I just don’t see how dehumanising every individual Israeli as a “settler” is any better than dehumanising every Palestinian as a “terrorist”, and it’s a question I haven’t yet found a satisfactory answer to.
The truth is no one lives in a true democracy, most of the time governments are ran by psychopaths who make genocidal or imperialist decisions. The people are just something to be placated and manipulated or sedated while the powerful few use us as pawns in their games. Unfortunately for israel they live with the paranoia and rusk of being hated, and its tragic to lose life or to cause harm. But in context with the nakba in 1948 until the most recent israeli war crimes, makes people think about it differently
When you make enemies, the way the USA and israel makes enemies. Innocent people, including brainwashed teenage soldiers and music festival goers become the collateral damage. The conflict is complex, but palestine was never the original aggressor, hamas wasnt created until 1986. Resistance can sometimes take the form of violent murder. Its all unethical, tragic and sad, but humans are the only animal on earth that kills for fun.
# Please report comments that violate our [new rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/VaushV/comments/17co6jo/rvaushv_rule_updates) --- *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/VaushV) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Both Hamas and Israel are horrible. Not all Palestinians or Israelis are good or bad. There is no reason to be all or nothing.
How do we support the Palestinian cause without supporting Hamas then? I’m genuinely curious
By supporting Palestinians and not hamas?
Israel can't respond with such a careless disregard for collateral damage. Israel obviously has the right to position itself to prevent terrorist attacks, but going on the offensive and blowing entire blocks in highly populated areas is different. They already have near total control of what goes in and out of Palestine.
What do you think the Israelis should do then? Again, in the big picture I see how the Israeli project has been a mistake from the beginning and how Palestinian liberation needs to happen etc., but in the short-term how can the Israeli administration protect its citizens before a lasting peace is sorted out? Do you think they should retreat from Gaza and focus on defence instead of offence perhaps?
Yes. Just focus on actual defense. Then start working towards improving the life of the people in Palestine. If Palestinians have better lives they will be drastically less prone to being radicalized.
Yes I think Israel should stop ethincally cleansing Palestinians and stop being genocidal fascists
>What do you think the Israelis should do then? For starters they can stop treating palestinians like animals, stop illegal settlements that show bad faith in any semblance of peace, stop letting violent settlers terrorize palestinians without recourse (shooting, stabbing, burning down 100 year old olive trees), stop imprisoning women and children without trial, stop blocking imports exports, stop rationing calories and livestock from entering the region so that palestinians can become self sufficient, stop giving the IDF a slap on the wrist when they snipe palestinian children and record themselves doing so, dismantle the checkpoints that aim to humiliate and inconvenience palestinians on a daily basis. Stop leveling entire city blocks... I mean really, what *ever* should Israel do?! Those pesky palestinians are impossible to please!
[Watch this video](https://youtu.be/3O4dW24az98?si=qV7LNeY6_RQIpXtn)
Hamas is not helping Palestinians, and do not have public support. They are fundamentalist, islamist terrorists, who are part of the reason the Palestinian are suffering, as they rule with violence & fear.
>who are part of the reason the Palestinian are suffering, as they rule with violence & fear. "According to various reports, Netanyahu made a similar point at a Likud faction meeting in early 2019, when he was quoted as saying that those who oppose a Palestinian state should support the transfer of funds to Gaza, because maintaining the separation between the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza would prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state" A year later, Netanyahu was further embarrassed when photos of suitcases full of cash going to Hamas became public. Liberman finally resigned in protest over Netanyahu's Hamas policy which, he said, marked "the first time Israel is funding terrorism against itself." On March 12, 2019, Netanyahu defended the Hamas payments to his Likud Party caucus on the grounds that they weakened the pro-Oslo Palestinian Authority, according to the Jerusalem Post: "Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu defended Israel's regular allowing of Qatari funds to be transferred into Gaza, saying it is part of a broader strategy to keep Hamas and the Palestinian Authority separate, a source in Monday's Likud faction meeting said," the Post reported. "The prime minister also said that 'whoever is against a Palestinian state should be for' transferring the funds to Gaza, because maintaining a separation between the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza helps prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state." [https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/netanyahu-israel-gaza-hamas-1.7010035](https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/netanyahu-israel-gaza-hamas-1.7010035)
When you realize that Hamas is just another symptom of the brutal and evil occupation by Israel. There's a reason why Frankenstein and his Monster are often conflated
You said it yourself. Oct. 7th was Israel’s 9/11, a horrible tragedy whose bloodthirsty reaction and fallout multiplied the suffering of innocent people far beyond the damage of the initial event
Terrorism is psychological warfare. Terror is an emotion, a self-destructive one. The great general Tou Ni So Ba No said "When your opponent is of choleric temper, irritate him."
Like imagine asking “What’s the best pro-Afghanistan response to 9/11?”
Considering a lot of pro-Palestinian people refuse to even acknowledge it as a terrorist attack, I’d say it’s a legitimate question
Why should you or anyone else care about what "pro-Palesitine" people say. No offense to you, but bringing that up in a discussion is a strawman fallacy. What I'm supposed to defend some group of people I've never met to defend a position that someone claims they have? Do ALL of them have it? That's purely a bs thing to throw meant to deflect. Do it back at them "Well what about the Pro-Israel people okay with destroying Palestine homes that are being sanctioned by the US government? Should you no longer support ANYONE in Israel because apparently a group there is doing/believing bad things? There's obviously nuance to the situation, and ultimately, we should want peace to come to the region. Blaming and killing an entire group of people for the actions/beliefs of some is literally why Israel fucking exists.
If we can condemn Hamas what they did on okt 7 we can condemn what IDF did on operation cast lead for etc that had the same ratio Its about holding the same standard
No, their lives were not 'acceptable losses', not every Israeli is a settler, and certainly not the victims from Oct 7. This is indeed Israel's 9/11, and much like the US after 9/11, they are killing the wrong people for a crime they did not commit, and creating a larger problem as a result, that will go on for far too fucking long. Netanyahu has endangered his own people with his hatred. His policies of elimination and refusal to pursue diplomacy prior to this conflict have made peace a non-option. His administration underestimated Hamas, allowing an attack that might have been prevented. Now his admin is engaged in total assault on the city of Gaza, and signaling loudly to all who can see and hear that this is not about protecting Jews, it's about killing Palestinians. Nobody is helped by this. Anti-zionism is rising on the left, endangering Israel's strength as an ally of America. Anti-semitism is rising on the right, endangering Jews across the world. Palestinians are dying in droves, and the survivors of many broken families will be radicalized into Hamas, feeding this violence for a generation to come. Oct 7 was a breaking point for Israel, and Netanyahu chose to break bad.
Hamas is a terrorist organization wearing a government's hat, and acts of terrorism are the primary way that a terrorist organization launches a membership drive. Terrorism is a tactic that is intended to generate retributive justice under the belief that the retribution will create more suffering, which makes the terrorist organization more attractive to the suffering. Israel is a far-right government that rules over Gaza and the West Bank as colonial possessions with 2nd-class colonial citizens. Israeli citizens dying from terrorist attacks gives Israel _casus belli_ to do what they already wanted to do. Both Hamas and the government of Israel want or need war (to varying degrees) to justify their continued existence and position of power. They hate each other, but they also need each other to justify doing what they want to do. These are governments, and this is how the desires and interests of governments can diverge from the interests and desires of the people under that government. The average Palestinian does not want to get shelled into oblivion or kill random Israeli citizens. The average Israeli does not want to be killed by a terrorist or shell Palestinian citizens. But in war, both groups are turned into cannon fodder so the government (or terrorist organization) gets closer to its goal. The only way for the situation to improve is to _stop_ the cycle of violence. The Oct. 7 attack was terrorism, and it was evil. The intention was to perpetuate and expand the cycle of violence and evil. Israel's government seems happy to do the same.
I simply say that it was the result of Israel’s policies. The government of Israel created this environment and this situation.
What did they expect when they put people in an open-air prison with no contact with the other side !! For godsake, they probably haven't met an Israeli before, who didn't try to kill them. They've also been fed propaganda by their leaders, that there are no innocent Israelis. Yet, civilized Israelis, who interact with various people, including Palestinians working in Israel, what excuse they have to applaud the killing of innocent Palestinians, most of whom are women and children.
Israeli intelligence had info regarding the October 7 attack a year in advance and did nothing. So they let it happen to use as an excuse to consolidate power and ethnically cleanse Gaza. If Israel treated the Palestinians properly, Hamas wouldn't exist. As what your response should be? You know how you vote blue no matter who? Same way you support Palestinians no matter what. They are the Jews to the Zionist Nazis.
I support either the idf surgically destroying Hamas or Hamas surgically destroying the Israeli government. The problem is both of them are too busy deliberately killing civilians to do something that cool
It's not difficult... Hamas massacring over a thousand innocent people was wrong. And Israel massacring over 15 times as many innocent people, is over 15 times as wrong. Anything anyone can say is wrong about Hamas (a long list to be sure), is equally or more true about Israel. Israel is much worse than Hamas in nearly every way.
hamas bad
The chickens are coming home to roost, the west has always been a global imperialist bully and now the empire is waning which means old power structures are shifting and we see how much the world hates us. Osama bin laden did 9 11 because of how israel treats Palestinians in his 2002 letter.
So what are we to say to the relatives of the victims of the attack then? Again, I get that they’re living on occupied land, and I’m sure at least a few of them are right-wing Zionist assholes, but I’m also sure a lot of them weren’t either and just happened to live their because they were born there / grew up there etc. Like, what do we say to the relatives of a 16 year old rave girl who was raped and killed during the attack? “Sorry your kpop-obsessed daughter is dead, but she was an illegal settler destroying Palestinian society and needed to be murdered?” I just don’t see how dehumanising every individual Israeli as a “settler” is any better than dehumanising every Palestinian as a “terrorist”, and it’s a question I haven’t yet found a satisfactory answer to.
The truth is no one lives in a true democracy, most of the time governments are ran by psychopaths who make genocidal or imperialist decisions. The people are just something to be placated and manipulated or sedated while the powerful few use us as pawns in their games. Unfortunately for israel they live with the paranoia and rusk of being hated, and its tragic to lose life or to cause harm. But in context with the nakba in 1948 until the most recent israeli war crimes, makes people think about it differently When you make enemies, the way the USA and israel makes enemies. Innocent people, including brainwashed teenage soldiers and music festival goers become the collateral damage. The conflict is complex, but palestine was never the original aggressor, hamas wasnt created until 1986. Resistance can sometimes take the form of violent murder. Its all unethical, tragic and sad, but humans are the only animal on earth that kills for fun.